Poland once more saves the day-blocks absurd EU CO2 emissions plan

[JustBrowsing]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-09/poland-blocks-eu-political-statement-on-co2-reduction-goals


Poland blocked a planned European Union declaration on climate policy for the second time in nine months, highlighting the difficulty that the EU faces in deepening emission reductions and bolstering carbon-dioxide prices.

The Polish government, flexing its weight at a meeting of European environment ministers today in Brussels, vetoed a political statement on the path for the EU to meet a political goal of cutting greenhouse gases including CO2 by at least 80 percent in 2050.


While I don't support my current government, this is a good decision. These absurd CO2 emission limits are seriously destroying our potential for growth in the name of an ideological eco-crusade. It's a right thing to do to block them. Too long we have unquestionably bowed our heads to the demands of fanatical ecologists from EU.

The proposed plan would simply eradicate our and EU economy.

[Damian90]

And where's the problem, we can say that we screw these limits and if others want to accept them, then be it, why they need us or any other country that do not want to accept this absurd? Oh wait I get it, because they will not steal more money from more people? ;)

[Mordoror]

The proposed plan would simply eradicate our and EU economy.

Ding Ding
We have the wisest comment of the month


Not

The issue is that Poland is just one of the biggest polluting country in Europe. That's why you blocked the deal. So please spare us the patronizing tone.

[JustBrowsing]

Ding Ding

The issue is that Poland is just one of the biggest polluting country in Europe. That's why you blocked the deal. So please spare us the patronizing tone.
Of course abandoning electricity production(90% coal based) and all our industry while living in caves would stop the pollution.

[Damian90]

The issue is that Poland is just one of the biggest polluting country in Europe. That's why you blocked the deal. So please spare us the patronizing tone.

So called green energy is not efficent enough. The only way is of course nuclear energy, and I think that France here would agree but hey, there are still these green peace, green love (whatever) idiots or other nucelar energy paranoics that will block buidling our own nuclear reactors, and sorry, without them we have no other choice but still produce electricity using coal.

[Mordoror]

Of course abandoning electricity production(90% coal based) and all our industry while living in caves would stop the pollution.
Given your previous (short) post history on the board, i'd rather say if you are not happy in EU just leave
and go crawl back to your dream of Great Poland instead of writting stupid posts without anything inside that parroting the style of some of your nationalist/anti EU party members.
Now if you have something more smart to ad than cliché carry on

[JustBrowsing]

So called green energy is not efficent enough. The only way is of course nuclear energy, and I think that France here would agree but hey, there are still these green peace, green love (whatever) idiots or other nucelar energy paranoics that will block buidling our own nuclear reactors, and sorry, without them we have no other choice but still produce electricity using coal.
Yes Germany strongly opposes Polish nuclear reactors. Also even if we would build them they would satisfy maybe 5-8% of electricity needs in the country.
Coal is our only option.

[Mordoror]

So called green energy is not efficent enough. The only way is of course nuclear energy, and I think that France here would agree but hey, there are still these green peace, green love (whatever) idiots or other nucelar energy paranoics that will block buidling our own nuclear reactors, and sorry, without them we have no other choice but still produce electricity using coal.

On that we can agree
It is,just an economical issue (as your industry is coal oriented)
Nothing to have with Poland saving the EU (World) yada yada (like the OP understated with his fangs dripping of EU hate)

[LineDoggie]

Thread title disengenuous and propagandistic.

Actual title of article
Poland Blocks EU Political Statement on Carbon Emission Reduction Goals

[JustBrowsing]

Thread title disengenuous and propagandistic.

Actual title of article
Poland Blocks EU Political Statement on Carbon Emission Reduction Goals

Yes, but the title is mine. Saving from 80% CO2 reduction saves economy.

[Damian90]

On that we can agree
It is,just an economical issue (as your industry is coal oriented)
Nothing to have with Poland saving the EU (World) yada yada (like the OP understated with his fangs dripping of EU hate)

Indeed, but to be honest I'am also against EU, but it is mostly based on ideological level not imaginary reluctance towards Europe. I just don't like money waste done by EU authorities, and their overall politics.

As for saving world, I do not care who saves world, I would preffer to sit silently and make money.

[JustBrowsing]

Indeed, but to be honest I'am also against EU, but it is mostly based on ideological level not imaginary reluctance towards Europe. I just don't like money waste done by EU authorities, and their overall politics.

As for saving world, I do not care who saves world, I would preffer to sit silently and make money.

EU produces like 7% of world's CO2 output so it means nothing. China and USA are the biggest producers and they won't sign such treaty because they know it would harm their economy.

[Mordoror]

Indeed, but to be honest I'am also against EU, but it is mostly based on ideological level not imaginary reluctance towards Europe. I just don't like money waste done by EU authorities, and their overall politics.

As for saving world, I do not care who saves world, I would preffer to sit silently and make money.

If we come back on the original issue, i think that we should stop to have a shortview of the things though
You see all this CO2 discussion is getting old as it has turned ideological
However the issue is a bit more complicated

EU is very dependant to fossil energies (coal, oil, natural gas) bought in foreign countries (and used sometimes as political levers)
So reducing CO2 is not only an ecological issue, it is also a strategical issue about energy independance
If you don't tax CO2 production there is no incentives to promote clean energy not based on fossil elements so you (we) remain dependant to imported oil/coal/gas
This has also to have with a long term view because even countries that have nowaday reserves of fossil energies (like Poland with coal) are depleting them rapidly

Your economy is maybe doing well with coal today, if you don't understand that you are building your future non-coal economy today by pushing greener energies through taxes on CO2 you will find yourself in a wall in 10 20 or 30 years

[xav]

Thank you Poland.

Now China can order our A380 again

[Damian90]

Yeah, so the most important question is, if there is really problem with pollution or it is another green idiots fantasy to just steal more money, and don't be fooled, behind that green love and peace movement to "save earth" is big industry lobby that want to make money on manufacturing and selling useless, not energy production efficent green energy "things" that are also expensive.


If we come back on the original issue, i think that we should stop to have a shortview of the things though
You see all this CO2 discussion is getting old as it has turned ideological
However the issue is a bit more complicated

EU is very dependant to fossil energies (coal, oil, natural gas) bought in foreign countries (and used sometimes as political levers)
So reducing CO2 is not only an ecological issue, it is also a strategical issue about energy independance
If you don't tax CO2 production there is no incentives to promote clean energy not based on fossil elements so you (we) remain dependant to imported oil/coal/gas
This has also to have with a long term view because even countries that have nowaday reserves of fossil energies (like Poland with coal) are depleting them rapidly

Your economy is maybe doing well with coal today, if you don't understand that you are building your future non-coal economy today by pushing greener energies through taxes on CO2 you will find yourself in a wall in 10 20 or 30 years

You know what, screw green energy, nuclear power all the way! ;)

If we will have electric enegines powered cars, trains etc. nuclear reactors are perfect solution, just invest more money in safe and well designed storage areas for spent fuel rods and it should be all fine.

Because only someone naive will belive that wind power will be efficent enough, or solar power.

[JustBrowsing]

However the issue is a bit more complicated

EU is very dependant to fossil energies (coal, oil, natural gas) bought in foreign countries (and used sometimes as political levers)
So reducing CO2 is not only an ecological issue, it is also a strategical issue about energy independance

if you don't understand that you are building your future non-coal economy today by pushing greener energies through taxes on CO2 you will find yourself in a wall in 10 20 or 30 years

Poland has coal for another 100-200 years. Not an issue. We are pretty independent if we want to. Only thing stopping us is EU policy.





If you don't tax CO2 production there is no incentives to promote clean energy not based on fossil elements so you (we) remain dependant to imported oil/coal/gas


Other countries like Germany or France are developing these technologies aggressively, they will happen anyway, so there is no need for EU wide enforcement that would destroy economies of Eastern Europe. Unless you want German and France to dominate them economically...hmmm....


Anyway if EU wants to waste money it can do so in such projects

http://inhabitat.com/treepods-carbon-scrubbing-artificial-trees-for-boston-city-streets/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec

It would probably make more sense too(more science generated).

[Mordoror]

Poland has coal for another 100-200 years. Not an issue. We are pretty independent if we want to. Only thing stopping us is EU policy.

FYI energy resereves are ALWAYS over estimated....good luck for your "100-200 years"



Other countries like Germany or France are developing these technologies aggressively, they will happen anyway,
So basically it's up to us to do the R&D in more efficient greener energy systems and to pay for that
You just wait passively to be fed right ?


Unless you want German and France to dominate them economically...hmmm....
But even when fed you whine or you will whine about Ger/Fr domination
Just a tip : get your fingers out of your ass-h and start to R&D something. Maybe you won't have to buy a ger/fr issued system then so you'll be spared the teutonic or french royal domination:roll:

[Damian90]

Just a tip : get your fingers out of your ass-h and start to R&D something.

Maybe military should step in? It is a known fact that military if have something important to develop, will develop it and it will be good... at least I would spend my money on military and be more happy than spend that money on something useless... like greenpeace.

US Military is for example looking more friendly at hybrid engines and electric engines for vehicles, BAe Systems developed for US Army a rather sucesfull yet not mature hybrid engine for AFV's, so why not work with US on this? Besides the obvious and idiotic in my opinion, that pro-EU politicians are also mostly anti-US...

[JustBrowsing]

FYI energy resereves are ALWAYS over estimated....good luck for your "100-200 years"
Or underestimated. This happens also.




So basically it's up to us to do the R&D in more efficient greener energy systems and to pay for that
If Germany and France give us something like that for free it would be a surprising news. I believe they would force to pay a hefty sum of money.




Just a tip : get your fingers out of your ass-h and start to R&D something. Maybe you won't have to buy a ger/fr issued system then so you'll be spared the teutonic or french royal domination:roll:
We won't have to buy anything German or French unless they will force us to. We can rely for coal for another 100 years if we want to. Than buy technology from USA, Chinese or Republic of Luna if French and Germans are unwilling.


The fact is that Poland can't reduce such amount of CO2 unless we destroy our economy in the process. While French and Germans might be ok with reducing Poland to rural resort for their elderly tourists and our population to cheap workers abroad, I am personally against it(even if myself I must emigrate due to poverty and unemployment in my country).

[Victis Honor]

nice title change. have yet to see the first usefull thing poland did eu wise.

[RSone]

Because only someone naive will belive that wind power will be efficent enough, or solar power.

The technology will get there, eventually. Recent research and prototyping of new solar cell tech indicates the efficiency of solar cells will take a massive flight. Cambridge has prototyped 44% efficient cells, Philips and AMOLF(Atomic and Molecular Physics division of the Dutch Foundation for Fundamental Research on Matter) are prototyping silicon solar cells which reflect just 1% of light... Enercon produces Megawatt scale windmills. Estimates of harvestable wind power are measured in Terawatts.
Ardent detractors of non-conventional energy are short sighted. Pollution is still pollution, and fossil fuels will eventually become economically inviable and even run out in the long run. We, as a species, are going to NEED something else some day...

[Corrupt]

I really hate UK investment in wind power. It's vasty inefficient unless you want to get into the jetstream. I'm certainly in favour of more reliable, renewable, clean forms of energy, I just don't think windpower is the one for us.


french royal domination:roll:

France is a republic. ;)

[C.Puffs]

I really hate UK investment in wind power. It's vasty inefficient unless you want to get into the jetstream. I'm certainly in favour of more reliable, renewable, clean forms of energy, I just don't think windpower is the one for us.

Don't tell anybody. You'll end up with 40,000 foot tall windmills. :-)

[kalerab]

The technology will get there, eventually. Recent research and prototyping of new solar cell tech indicates the efficiency of solar cells will take a massive flight. Cambridge has prototyped 44% efficient cells, Philips and AMOLF(Atomic and Molecular Physics division of the Dutch Foundation for Fundamental Research on Matter) are prototyping silicon solar cells which reflect just 1% of light... Enercon produces Megawatt scale windmills. Estimates of harvestable wind power are measured in Terawatts.
Ardent detractors of non-conventional energy are short sighted. Pollution is still pollution, and fossil fuels will eventually become economically inviable and even run out in the long run. We, as a species, are going to NEED something else some day...

True, but that doesn´t make issue of stable energy go away. And till now neither solar energy, nor wind energy were able to adress this problem.

[Corrupt]

Don't tell anybody. You'll end up with 40,000 foot tall windmills. :-)

People are examining it. I believe using kites of some description is the most common idea.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/DemonofRazgriz/mn_wind.jpg

Personally I think the UK should be looking at tidal power to fufill at least some of our energy requirements. Especially if it was an alternative to the current wind power sites springing up across the nation. Being an island, we're blessed with something like eight of the top twenty tidal sites in the world, with the added bonus that using maths we can predict the power of tides for the next few centuries, which we can't do with wind.

[RSone]

True, but that doesn´t make issue of stable energy go away. And till now neither solar energy, nor wind energy were able to adress this problem.

I was just pointing out Damian was wrong. However, you are right about the stability. They are not suited as replacements for fossil fuels for the time being, but with optimistic estimates placing Peak Oil possible in the 2020's(which is ****ing soon, in the grand scale of things) we're going to need everything we can get. The excruciating slow pace and politisation of fusion research has been extremely frustrating. Humanity is in this together, we have no need for nationalist chestbeating.

[Mordoror]

France is a republic. ;)

Not anymore ;)
But i was refering to the fact Justbrowsing disliked the EU because Poland has suffered in History from all nowadays EU big members (Prussia...er Germany first:roll:)

[kalerab]

I was just pointing out Damian was wrong. However, you are right about the stability. They are not suited as replacements for fossil fuels for the time being, but with optimistic estimates placing Peak Oil possible in the 2020's(which is ****ing soon, in the grand scale of things) we're going to need everything we can get. The excruciating slow pace and politisation of fusion research has been extremely frustrating. Humanity is in this together, we have no need for nationalist chestbeating.

Oil Peak should´ve come in 60s, than in 90s, now its 2020. It will come but not as soon and it will be a process. There is still a lot of oil on ocean floor, however cost of drilling will go up with the depth and therefore push for non-oil based power resources will become not only political but also economical problem. Hopefully this will play in hand for fussion research, however idiocy of Green parties to this issue is something I will never, ever understand.