Special Forces recruiting

[Sir Nob]

I just saw on the Army website that quote,"The Army is now recruiting civilians to join Special Forces as Weapons Sgts and Engineering Sgts."
I can walk into my recruiters office and 44 short weeks later Ill be wearing the coveted Green Beret(and a Sgt)?
Anyone have any info on this? For me this doesn't do much for my faith in the Special Forces of today. Shouldnt we have to serve a minimum (3 years or so) in a regular unit before we can even think about going to any specialised schools/selection? Just my opinion.

[96B]

Im not sure about the Army thing, but I agree that all applicants of special operations or special forces should be combat seasoned or at least have a few years experience. Although the training in itself of each unit is designed to prepare the operator for combat and give him the ability to perform appropriate missions, operational experience should be important too. With the exception of Delta and DEVGRU, there arent many others that wont let you in without having alot of prior experience in years of service.

[JiJoMacLE45]

I don't think they are just taking anyone however. The emphasis is for college graduates, men w/ language capabilities, and skills relavent to SF. They used to have this program and they only got rid of in I want to say the mid-80's. Earl Fillmore the Delta operator killed in Somalia had come into SF straight out of basic.

[96B]

How many Delta participated in the incident of Black Hawk Down and how many died?

[JiJoMacLE45]

One squadron was in country during the Mogadishu raid, C squadron which depending on whose books you read could mean anywhere from 35 to 80 men. A second squadron arrived after the October 3rd/4th mission, but never really got into any serious scrapes.

Five Delta men were killed on the initial raid:
Master Sergeant Gary Gordon
Master Sergeant Tim Martin
Sergeant First Class Randy Shugart
Sergeant First Class Earl Fillmore
Staff Sergeant Dan Busch

A couple of days later Sergeant First Class Matt Rierson was killed in a mortar attack on the US base at the airport.

So in all, six Delta operators were killed in Somalia during Operation Gothic Serpent.

[Kitsune]

3Questions:
How many men are in the 75th Airborne Ranger Regiment ?
How many do the Special Forces number all in all? (Only Special Forces...Delta excluded) ?
Does anyone know?

[Chilean Commando]

Hi guys.

Soldiers can directly enlist into Special Forces by signing up with the 18X MOS. From what I understand, and am told by many current and retired SF soldiers, is that most new comers simply sign up with the 18X MOS so they get a for sure shot at the Basic Airborne course. As soon as they gradute from Basic Airborne, they drop and pick up a new MOS or something to that effect without even giving SFAS a shot. It seems that the number of soldiers going into SFAS, passing SFAS, attending the Q-Course, and passing the Q Course have all dropped somewhat since the onset of the 18X MOS.

Cya

[JiJoMacLE45]

These are offical numbers, now they are probably substantially lower since most SOF units are undermanned.

There are approximately 1,800 Rangers assigned to the three battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment. This does not include the Ranger instructors in the Ranger Training Brigade or Ranger qualed soldiers serving in other posts.

There are approximately 4,500 men in Special Forces in deployable ODAs(though this number is probably closer to 4,000 with SF being understrengthed). With SF qualified men being assigned to other postings, staff tours, instructor duty, etc., the number of SF tabbed soldiers is probably closer to 6,500.

The SF national guard units add probably around another 1,500 men.

Delta, which pulls its manpower from not just SF and Rangers but conventional units like airborne and infantry is probably around 200 shooters. Though I've seen reports of up to 800 men in Delta, I seriously doubt that they have 800 shooters considering they started with around 120 men when the unit was formed with two squadrons and were not able to reach a third squadron until the late 80's, early '90s.

There are approximately 2,200 SEALs in the US Navy with the most reliable sources putting the number of SEALs in DevGroup at right around 150.

The Navy has 500 or so Special Warfare Combat Crewmen.

There are about 400 Air Force airmen assigned to Special Tactics, both PJs and CCTs. With about another 200 PJs assigned to active, national guard, and reserve rescue squadrons.

[Kitsune]

THX JiJo ! :D

[JiJoMacLE45]

Anytime.

[TacoDelRio]

I know it sounds ridiculous, but my army recruiter said that I could be a SOF weapons sergeant. Im only 17, but he said it because of my knowledge. I want to do that though, and it is my goal in life. Who wants to get in my way first?

Hooah! De Oppresso Liber!

[FallenAngel]

I'm with the above. I'm an 18 year old senior and *MY* army recruiter (who was a supply cpl. with the 10th mnt. in somalia) told me I could be a SF Weapons sargeant too a few months after completing boot. Although, what he told me that was actually really tempting was he said I could be an Apache pilot within 9 months from graduating in June.

Of course he's a recruiter, so I'm sure I'd end up in some 3rd world sand-box pushing paper request forms for sunblock instead :D

[Piccolo]

I dunno about a few months there guys. If you went 18x contract, you would have to through boot, then infantry I assume (Not sure if that goes with SF contract) then Airborne, then SFAS, and the Q course. Assuming you don't know a second or third language with proficientcy, you would need about 6 months of language courses. I have aspirations to be a Weapons Sergeant as well, but I think a going through Ranger school and possibly serving with a battalion will give me good experience which is needed before I even try for SF.

[Apogee]

You are thinking of the old SF indoctrination program where SFAS, SF language school, the Q course, and SERE school were all seperate. They've now instituted a 6-phase progam to get your SF tab. You must complete all 6 phases to get the long tab. The 18x progam will go into this after they complete BNOC.

[TacoDelRio]

I would'nt want to be in SOF after a short amount of time. I want to live the army, I guess you might say. There are things I want to do before I try out for SOF. I will make it, unless I die before I have a chance to get in.

Hooah. p-)

[BMF]

Mr. S: if you want to get into SOF the old fashioned way, go infantry, Airborne, spend some time in Korea with a light infantry unit, then apply for ranger school. get to E4 promotable, then put in for SF

[Apogee]

Or you could always take the combat medic route. But the SF medic course is twice as long as any of the other ones. Just food for thought.

[Piccolo]

Do you perhaps any webpages which details this new setup, Scuba? Because, on the official army website, under SF recruitment, they detail the SF courses as the way I stated above.

[Apogee]

I don't actually. I recieved the information in a class I'm taking on Special Operations. It was presented by a MSG who used to run SFAS. I can find my notes and detail it into the 6 phases if you'd like.

[Trigger]

I think the fastest way into Special Forces is to contact adambalhetchet. He can put you through a little PT, and if you pass and can afford your own gear, he'll let you in. If you're broke, he'll buy your stuff for you. (Unless he's not rich from making 'Black Hawk Down XXXIV') p-)

[Sir Nob]

rofl

[bent]

I am an 18X DEP. In other words, I have enlisted in the off-the-street-SF program you're referring to but haven't shipped yet.

According to my contract, I go to Infantry OSUT (boot camp+infantry training in one shot), Airborne School, a pre-SFAS training course, and then SFAS. This takes about six months and is all done back to back. After that six months if everything goes well, I will go to weapons, engineer, medic, or comm school and finally, the Robin Sage stage of the Q course. Assuming I successfully complete the Q course, I will likely attend language and SERE schools.

The requirements I had to meet for the 18X program include a 110 GT Score on the ASVAB, an 80 on the DLAB, and passing the APFT (physical fitness) before shipping. If you don't have a college degree, I believe you have to meet the requirements for E-3. You may notice that some of these aren't even requirements for officers.

I have heard from a very reliable source that the succes rate of 18X candidates is much higher than the success rate from the regular army. I can only speculate about why that is so. My guess is that the high test score requirements mean that a lot of the people are college grads or at least those with the aptitude for success in school. Additionally, many regular Army guys probably don't prepare physically as well as they should, whereas I will have no choice but to be in the best shape of my life.

I have a site with links to more info:
www.geocities.com/benandkimt/18x/18xinfo.html

[hood]

I was very interested in the PT requirements which from your links page concerning the pullups, situps and pushups seemed very low. If you compare the 72situps/72pushups/8pullups that they mention to the hundreds of each for the PT requirements for entry on the Navy SEALs official page, there's obviously a big difference. I wonder why the disparity... Because of asthma, I'll never be able to join up, but I've been doing the sets off the SEALs page for a good while now just as a good guide for staying in shape.

[bent]

After reading some of the posts in this thread, I think it's worth mentioning a few lessons I learned during my recruiting/enlistment experience.

Although there are a lot of good recruiters out there, it is a good practice not to believe anything your recruiter tells you unless you can confirm it with a couple of other, preferably non-recruiter, sources. He has a mission and telling you the truth may not always seem to him to be the best way to accomplish it.

If you're interested in SF, ask your recruiter to put you in touch with people who have SF experience. For instance, there are a couple of people in my area who spent years in SF units, but for various reasons are now on the recruiting side of things. In my experience SF/ex-SF guys are happy to talk about their experience and to help you to succeed. The people I talked with were also less likely to tell half truths about my readiness, chances of success, etc.

Finally, don't be pressured by anybody into doing anything you don't feel comfortable with. Do what you want to do not what someone else tells you to do. Once you sign that contract, you don't get to make many more decisions for a while.

[nathan_w_l]

all of you guys who's recruiters told you that "you could be Special Forces in 44 weeks" need to keep one other thing in mind. if you choose to pursue that course you might never ever get through airborne, let alone sfas and sfqc, not to mentions sere, so don't go talking like it's in anyway a sure thing. remember that even if you do sign up for it you are statistically going to fail, especially since you will be compared to several other people that have been in the army for several years who are also competeing for the same slots as you.

I am not trying to discourage you from choosing this course, as a matter of fact I would recomend it to all who feel the need to. what I am saying is that the statistics are against you and not everyone makes it. some people give it 310% and still fall short of the standard.

also just because your recruiter tells you somthing doesn't make it gods honest truth. many times your recruiter will have never met a SF qualled soldier in his life, and only know what he is told which is not neccessarily true. it is not there fault, they just simply can't know everything there is to know about every mos or the schooling process that mos requires.

one final observation. the military has some wonderful benefits packages and is much better about soldier retention than it was in the past, but all in all the army does not serve you. you serve it. and it serves the United States. don't get to caught up in all the "glory or benefits" for you may never live to see them.

just my .2

good luck with all your endevors everybody.

[nathan_w_l]

ps I have heard from a very reliable source (a lead instructor at the John F. Kenedy Special warfare Center and School) that of the 800 personnel who have volunteered for the 18X program around 110 graduated from the Basic Airborne Course. that means that around 690 individuals failed to complete airborne. they haven't even started SFAS yet and already it's down to 110. I guarantee you just because you are in the 18X program doesn't guarantee anything. most instructors I have spoken with since the 18X program was instituted say "the best way to prepare for for SFAS and SFQC is still to serve some time as a light or airborne infantryman.

[bent]

I stand by my source. I can't account for the discrepancy except for the possibility that the rates refer different groups of people. My source was referring to graduation from the Q course-all the way through, not just SFAS.

As to being prepared, no doubt there is no substitute for experience as an infantryman. The 18X program, however, is bringing in people the Army would never otherwise get. There will be positive and negative outcomes. Lack of infantry experience is a real problem; the acquisition of quality people with other kinds of experience is a real benefit.

[nathan_w_l]

I'm looking at the statistics as we speak. as of 24 oct 02

individuals recruited into the 18X program: 817

individuals that completed and graduated airborne:132

individuals that moved on to SFAS: 106


these #'s came from an instructor at JFKSWCS. What these #'s tell me is that many of the "high quality" people that the 18X program has recruited don't exactly have the qualities Special Forces are looking for in many cases.

All the instructors I have talked to have said that not many of the "SF babies" have what it takes; which isn't suprising because not many people prior service or otherwise do.

there is no dobt that the 18X program offers a great deal of diversity, that is not in question. does it increase your chances of making it to an ODA? no as a matter of fact it probably decreases your chances because your competing against people who have been humpin it in the boonies for years, especially canidates from Airborne/light infantry units. out of the 106 training at sfas I would estimate that less than 30 will be selected in SFAS, and even less than that will graduate SFQC.

Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time-"ross perot"

ps. I don't mean to piss on your parade but facts is facts.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Anyone know if the 18X program is an option in the guards?

[Apogee]

I seriously doubt it. If Uncle Sam is going to foot the bill for you to go through Airborne School and all six phases of the Special Forces course, I'm thinking hes gonna want some active time out of ya. From what I hear, most of the guys in the 2 reserve groups are old SF guys who are coming off active.

[bent]

nathan_w_l

It's your last paragraph my stats conflict with. You estimate <30% success rate in SFAS. That's about the regular Army success rate, and 18X's have a better one. Anyway, I am not talking about success in SFAS or Airborne school, I'm talking about the success rate at the end of the Q course. The longest part of the Q course is academics, which may be one explanation for my numbers: 18X's have higher aptitude requirements.

I don't have any reason to disbelieve your numbers regarding the Airborne school failure rate, although it seems strange it would be that high. Other MOS's also go directly to airborne school. I wonder what the failure rate is there for other MOS's.

My numbers compare the performance of 18X's to regular Army soldiers from SFAS to the end of the Q course. 18X's have ~70% success vs regular Army at ~40%. They apparently disregard those 18X's who never made it to SFAS, which suggests you probably have a valid point about never even making it there.

I note your doubts about quality. I don't feel obligated to respond in defense of myself, but I will say I personally know several people who are well qualified to be officers but have chosen to enlist because of this opportunity, including one who turned down a service academy appointment. There is more to SF than humping heavy packs; I would like to have a medic on my ODA with both the aptitude to go to med school and the desire to serve in a more aggressive role. The 18X program has the potential to attract that kind of person. It also probably pulls in a lot of arrogant 17 year olds who think they're Rambo. As I said, there will be good and bad outcomes.

[bent]

When I enlisted, 18X required a 5 year active duty commitment.

[JiJoMacLE45]

USMA_SCUBA and Bent, thanks alot.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Sorry guys, 1 more ?

Is that a 5yr commitment after completing the Q or five years from the day you report to basic?

[bent]

The five years starts when you enlist: sign the contract and swear the oath.

It's worth noting that there is a national guard SF program in a couple of states. Here's a link to one:

http://www.floridaguard.net/320sfga/index.htm

You could join the national guard and later go to SFAS.

[nathan_w_l]

you have a exceedingly well put point, and you might be right about the higher rates in SFQC.

however my problem is this, if you don't make it through SFAS you don't even get a shot at the SFQC, and regular Army canidates have a rate of surviving the selection than 18X canidates. If you can't make it through the selection couse you never get a chance to show your aptitude accademically. Special Forces Assesment and Selection is essentially a nice way of saying, the instructors will make your life a living hell in every way they possibly can. They will give you no motivation what so ever and they will make it as easy as they know how to simply stop trying and quit. After a while you will get very tired of hearing the words "just do the best you can". You will not be told whether or not you completed each task to there satisfaction (because you won't be in real life either). It will be your task to keep your self motivate under the most god awful conditions you have ever imagined short of combat. There will be much in the way of PT, other physically straining, and mentally stressing events. There will be problem solving events but these are rarely of the "accedemic" type; they will require common sense not book smarts.

The purpose of SFAS is to weed out those who can not survive under combat conditions before, the Q course even begins because this is where the majority of the expenses in training a basically qualified Special Forces solidier are incurred. Several years of valuable infantry experience will greatly assist some one faced with these challenges.

I can't tell you how colonels, majors, and captains I have met who couldn't make the cut in SFAS (they go too). there is a man that I am aware of that has served 14 years in the 75th ranger regiment (most people find it extremely difficult to even complete their tour in the ranger regiment) who failed to be selected at SFAS. I have known West Point graduates that failed to be selected at SFAS. It will be by far one of the most difficult tasks you will ever undertake in your life.

Although you are correct there is a hell of a lot more to serving in an ODA than humping 140 lb packs, you will find that the average Special Forces soldier does more of it with heavier weights than the average Airborne infantryman. In order to excel or even exist in an ODA you will have to be a exceptionally well rounded soldier who is capable of some very complicated tasks, as well as brutal hand to hand fighting.

although it has been tried countless times there is absolutely no way to predict with any amount of certainty who will complete the selection or the course. A person who is conscidered to be excellently qualified to be a SF soldier may not the pure mental determination to break down the barriers presented to him.

I appoligize for the long windedness of my reply

ps. you appear to have a good disposition that will serve you well if in fact you make it to Special Forces.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Thanks, Bent. I know guard members could go through SFAS and the Q course and then go back to a guard SF unit with out ever having to go active(well except for the time they were in training). I just was not sure whether the 18X program was also available upon enlistment in the guard. I have a buddy who I went through the academy with who is considering it. Bachelors degree, EMT-P certified, Spanish speaker, about six years of law enforcement experience. He is just unsure about whether or not he wants to leave his job to go active. Thanks again. Good luck as well.

[bent]

Thanks for the compliment, no sarcasm intended. I don't mind long replies because I always feel I've written too much myself. Reading and talking to active duty soldiers, SF and non-SF, has led me to conclusions that closely parallel the points you made: it is hard to predict who will be successful, carrying heavy loads in adverse conditions is normal so fitness is very important, and SFAS is a test of will and self control as much as anything else.

I'm not sure I clearly communicated this, but the statistics I quoted compare regular Army to 18X beginning at SFAS and ending at the Q course, so they do include SFAS. One enlisted SF soldier I talked with told me he thought the pre-SFAS course (that 18X's attend between Airborne school and SFAS) was a great thing. He seemed to think it significantly improves one's chances of success in SFAS. You're doing the same things in the same terrain and being taught by SF instructors what you'll need to know to succeed the next month. Regular Army guys don't necessarily get to attend that course. That could be another explanation for a high 18X success rate in SFAS.

I realize the quality (that's not the best word but I can't think of a better one) people I'm talking about will not all make it as SF soldiers; I'm arguing that the Army benefits from drawing on a larger pool of capable people. I think it's less an insult than a statement of fact to say that infantry units aren't exactly the last bastion of intellectual achievement (or many other desirable things for that matter) in the Army. If they were the only source of candidates, the possibilities would be limited. Admittedly, this thought is more in response to other opinions expressed earlier in the thread than the success rate point we've been discussing.

I assume from the things you've said that you're active duty Army. Are there any qualities you have consistently seen in successful SFAS candidates? Do you know of any ways to improve my chances? Why do you think so many drop out in Airborne school/before SFAS?

[EliteWolf]

These are offical numbers, now they are probably substantially lower since most SOF units are undermanned.

There are approximately 1,800 Rangers assigned to the three battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment. This does not include the Ranger instructors in the Ranger Training Brigade or Ranger qualed soldiers serving in other posts.

There are approximately 4,500 men in Special Forces in deployable ODAs(though this number is probably closer to 4,000 with SF being understrengthed). With SF qualified men being assigned to other postings, staff tours, instructor duty, etc., the number of SF tabbed soldiers is probably closer to 6,500.

The SF national guard units add probably around another 1,500 men.

Delta, which pulls its manpower from not just SF and Rangers but conventional units like airborne and infantry is probably around 200 shooters. Though I've seen reports of up to 800 men in Delta, I seriously doubt that they have 800 shooters considering they started with around 120 men when the unit was formed with two squadrons and were not able to reach a third squadron until the late 80's, early '90s.

There are approximately 2,200 SEALs in the US Navy with the most reliable sources putting the number of SEALs in DevGroup at right around 150.

The Navy has 500 or so Special Warfare Combat Crewmen.

There are about 400 Air Force airmen assigned to Special Tactics, both PJs and CCTs. With about another 200 PJs assigned to active, national guard, and reserve rescue squadrons.

I have to disagree, according to a chart i recently looked at the standings are as listed for special forces in numbers

Army = 16000 (this may include 101st and 82nd though, im not sure)
Navy = 4500
Air Force = 1600
Marines = 400

keep in mind these are not exact figures, give or take a few i bet.

[JiJoMacLE45]

There are I think like 30,000 men and women assigned to SOCOM. Those are the number of men and women assigned to SOCOM when you add it all up. When you factor in all of the headquarters types, operational planning staffs, logistics and support, intel staffs, training commands, Army civil affairs, Army PsyOps, Army Special Operations Aviation, Air Force Special Operations pilots and aircrews, aircraft maintenance types, and what not. I was just giving the numbers for the actual shooters. Hope that clears it up.

[nathan_w_l]

Although the infantry does have it's share of duds (as do all other branchs quite frankly, it's just the nature of the beast) don't forget that for the many top graduating West Point cadets of years past have requested "high speed" infantry units such as the 75th ranger regiment and the 82nd Airborne as their first duty stations.

Although I take it as a compliment, I am unfortunately not on active duty at the moment (soon however). I do however keep very close roots in the Army SOF community.

Many of the characteristics that present in successful SF canidates and soldiers, are largely mental. One of the more important is planning. a soldier that is capable of planning ahead and anticipating the small problems, is capable of fixing said small problems before the become big problems. Planning ahead also includes anticipating the results of their actions all the successful SF canidates have an interest in bettering themselves, and this is usually evident in most everything they do. SF soldiers are generally avid readers who tend to soak up information presented to them like a spunge. SF canadates that are successful have a possitive attitude whenever possible, and think in terms of "as the going gets tough, they get tougher". You can almost never tell from their outward appearance who has the drive to become a SF soldier.

But beyond all there is one thing and that is dedication. SFAS and SFQC are not things that can be taken with 99% dedication. You must set everything else in your world asided for the time being and devote yourself to becoming a SF soldier. If you can do this than you can work towards the rest, but with out one you can't have the other.

My guess as to why the drop out rate is so high after airborne is because many people simply want to go to jump school, but for some reason or another couldn't get Airborne training in there contracts. After jump school intentionally fail the next step in the process so that they will be sent to an airborne infantry unit. as ass-backwards as sounds believe it or not it is a minor epidemic.

[nathan_w_l]

1. Where do you get that name from?

2. The 82nd and 101st are part of the 18th Airborne corps, not Army Special Operations Command. therefore they are not conscidered Special Operations units

[Apogee]

Nathan, no West Point grads go straight into the 75th. Believe me, I would know. Before taking a leadership job (platoon leader, company commander) in the RGT, you must have already done that job in a standard infantry unit (mech or light). Lots of USMA grads do go to the 82nd or 101st though. Have a good one.

[nathan_w_l]

Your right sir, musta been a temporary memory lapse

correction duly noted. next rounds on me ;)

[Hubris]

[quote="nathan_w_l"]I'm looking at the statistics as we speak. as of 24 oct 02

individuals recruited into the 18X program: 817

individuals that completed and graduated airborne:132

individuals that moved on to SFAS: 106 [quote]

To elaborate on a few questions here; yes you can 18X into the NG as well as the Regular Army. "SF Babies" (18X) are obviously less knowlegable about the Army and general soldiering than someone who has served an enlistment in even the most mundane of units (much less 75th Regiment, 82nd, 101st, etc...). I know everyone wants to start at the top but depth of experience means a lot.

More numbers; 106 of 817 move on to SFAS. Realistically, maybe 50 of these complete SFAS. I can't speak of other 18 series MOS's but it's not uncommon for 18E (Commo) to loose 50-75% of a class. There's Morse Code, language, SERE, etc... Heck, people flunk out for really stupid things like DUI, fighting, drugs, etc...

Think twice if you think you are just joining SF and not the real Army. With a 1:10 graduation rate you may be spending three years in 1st Infantry telling your bunkmates how you almost were SF once.

[mocking_loudly]

And I quote from Ken Connor in Ghost Force:


Special forces commanders dropped their previous insistance on excepting only recruits who had previously been trained by the airbourne forces and started to take volunteers straight from the civvy street.

The inevitable result was that the only thing special about the US special forces was their name.

Some food for thought there boys - seems like America is returning to the bad old days.

[optactical]

All you interested in this topic should look on:

www.socnetcentral.com

this topic is covered in depth on there in the SF threads.

My advice: do conventional infantry time first, after 3 years or even more go to an SF unit, the experience will be well worth it, especially with the optempo todays army faces.

[Dmitri]

Ok, to be consicered for SF, you first of all have to be a Specialist at the least. And the only way you can be one after basic and infantry AIT is being a college graduate (18x). I am not sure, MAYBE if you are a PFC by the end off an airborne school they might give you an E-4 to let you continue, not sure though. Good luck to yall young guys, might wanna start seriously working out soon. ;)




I seriously doubt it. If Uncle Sam is going to foot the bill for you to go through Airborne School and all six phases of the Special Forces course, I'm thinking hes gonna want some active time out of ya. From what I hear, most of the guys in the 2 reserve groups are old SF guys who are coming off active.
You don't have to go active after the training, you can be assigned directly too NG SF group. They are pretty much like active duty groups, and they have plenty of younger guys. Think about this, there can only one E-8 (master sergeant) in a team... Where are those older guys with the ranks go or do? Pull of couple of stripes? Sf has one of the fastest promotion rates in the military, and by the end of 4-6 year tour a lot of people are alredy E-7. What most groups need are the young SGTs and SSGs.
P.S. 2 national guard groups are counted as "deployable ODA", which means that the count of 4500 personell includes them. By the way, I talked to the Sf recruiter a couple of days ago, he said most ODA's on active duty have 8 or 9 if they are lucky people in the team.

[Deuterium]

Some food for thought there boys - seems like America is returning to the bad old days.

I've been in Army Special Forces for the last 17 years of my 20. There were no bad old days. I joined in 86 when we still had "SF Babies". Some were good, some not. Those of us that did a FEW years in the regular Army had just as many turds as the babies. The current program faces the harsh reality of todays use of SF. We have a lot to do and we can't keep the teams at 100% strength. This is just an initiative. The numbers will never be high enough (for 18X) so that there will be teams with a majority of 18Xs. Will we lose something for all this? Sure, you'll never convinve me that a couple years in the 82nd or Ranger Batts isn't the best kind of prep for SF. It will be hard for the 20 something on the team to look at the 30 to 40 somethings and relate. I DO have full confidence in the proccess however. Any guy that can make it through the Q can get on my helicopter.

[Dmitri]

What I personally don't like is that GT score is now lowered to 100 instead of 110 like before. Lowering of the standards might be a temporary answer to fill in the big gaps in the teams, but later on it will catch up...

[Dominique]

OK gent's for those of you interested in signing an SF (not SOF) "Baby" contract, you need to go down to your local recruiter. Once you've finished up all of your initial screening he'll get you up to MEPS for your ASVAB and physical. He should also gove you an info packet on what it will actually ake for you to qualify for SF.

SF is short handed right now and is trying to restock thier ranks. They are really looking for medics and commo sgts. (which just happen to be the two longest courses).

It's not as easy as you think. Most of the guys that are signing up for SF off of the street are in there mid to late 20's, have a degree, and are in very and I meean VERY good shape. Even still the Army is running them through some pre -training courses before sending them of to SFAS and the Q-course. If you fail, drop out or get hurt odds are you will end up at the 82nd as a 11B10P for the duration of your enlistment.

Also try talking to some of the older SF guys and ask them what their days are like, how tough was their training, etc. You really need to be sure this is what you want to do before you rush off to sign a contract.

[Dmitri]

I can walk into my recruiters office and 44 short weeks later Ill be wearing the coveted Green Beret(and a Sgt)?

How about some 90 weeks if you want to include PLDC (to becoome a sgt)

[Scrim]

Well, according to the Army website (misleading, sugarcoated?) it does say 44 weeks, PLDC is 4 weeks. Maybe I didnt read the fine print?
Regardless of the pros and cons of the 18X program, it is a wonderful recruiting tool.(Said as a former USMC Recruiter).

[Dmitri]

I'm not sure what those 44 weeks are suppose to include, but:
Basic and AIT: 14 weeks
Airborne:3 wks
PLDC:4 wks
SOPC: 4 wks
SFAS: 3 wks
SFQC: 31-63 wks depending on the job
Language: from 16 wks up to 48 wks (that's what it says on that same website, although I always heard of Arabic and like to be only 6 months)
SERE:1 week
So I guess if you take the shortes job with the easiest training, its still about 76 weeks.

[Beowulf]

that's also assuming you go straight through: no injuries, emergency leave, or "0" weeks/holdover time spent mowing the grass.....
-b

[ibstolidude]

what??

my brother's, cousin's, good friend's, neighbor's housecleaner's, nephew told him that you can now do most phases on the internet and they just send you a pre-resident packet for Robin Sage, if you past the pretest they just mail you the Beret, Crest, Unit Patch, Long Tab and a new knife...but dinner & toast is on you.

:roll:

If the program was easy it would not exist...it is a great marketing gig for 11b, I'll wager-

Hello Korea! - Yaaaahoooo!

[Dmitri]

rofl
that was funny ibstolidude.
in my opinion, the best way would be going active in some airborne unit for a year or two, that way you are through with your basic, AIT, airborne and may be even PLDC. Also gain some experience, knowledge and toughness. That way you minimize time spent away from home and you are more ready to pass the training... ;)

[18C4V]

I'm not sure what those 44 weeks are suppose to include, but:
Basic and AIT: 14 weeks
Airborne:3 wks
PLDC:4 wks
SOPC: 4 wks
SFAS: 3 wks
SFQC: 31-63 wks depending on the job
Language: from 16 wks up to 48 wks (that's what it says on that same website, although I always heard of Arabic and like to be only 6 months)
SERE:1 week
So I guess if you take the shortes job with the easiest training, its still about 76 weeks.

Where did you get that Info? Some of that information is in-correct. Try this link

https://www-perscom.army.mil/EPsf/18XProgram.htm [/img]

[NcDeuce]

I disagree with lowering the standards but it's still not easy to get into any Special Operations unit. For many of the young kids out there, dreaming about wearing the Green Beret, quit dreaming and get out there and work. Just because you have the urge to be SF, you also have to be in incredible shape. Vice versa as well.

Go out on weekends, do some land navigation, night navigation, run, do weight-lifting, work on marksmanship skills (not with paintball guns), just push your body to the limits, physically, mentally, and academically. Right now, I'm working on the running, it's my weakness, I am a football player so I'm not good with long distance running, I can run about 7 miles at a 7-8 minute pace. Yeah, it's bad I know, my dad always rags on me.

But after you get in shape, finish school, then you can go out and try out for SF, Rangers, or SEALS, whatever. And hopefully you'll succeed and maybe I'll see ya around.

[Dmitri]

Well, the main difference I see is the SFQC length. In the official "In-service special forces recruiting program" book I got from the sf recruiter it says that 11b/c training is 26 wks long plus the five weeks of collective training. Not sure why they got 15 weeks on that website.