Blind Chinese Activist Escapes Custody

[Ordie]

Chen Guangcheng, the blind, self-taught lawyer known for his outspoken opposition to China’s forced abortion (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/26/AR2005082601756.html)and sterilization policies, has escaped from house arrest...<Chen> currently in the U.S. Embassy under the protection of U.S. diplomats. The embassy would neither confirm nor deny that he was there.

More:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/blind-chinese-lawyer-activist-escapes-house-arrest/2012/04/27/gIQAdzTAlT_story.html?hpid=z1


Bad year for the CCP.

[FlintHillBilly]

Bad year for the CCP.

Things don't seem to be going their way.

Do you think more people are going to "defect" or speak out against the CCP ideology?

I think during my lifetime we will see some sort of Chinese spring. I know that's a bit off topic...

[Ordie]

Things don't seem to be going their way.

Do you think more people are going to "defect" or speak out against the CCP ideology?

I think during my lifetime we will see some sort of Chinese spring. I know that's a bit off topic...

I don't know if there will be a Jasmine Revolution.

With the Chinese economy slowing down, Bo Xilai political intrigue, and an unscripted CCP Change of Command, there is no doubt people's confidence will be affected.

The Americans are not too keen in hosting political defectors.
The US and China have common global interests (North Korea, Iran, Trade)

Based on the article, Chen Guangcheng does not want asylum. He wants a guarantee from Wen Jibao (#2) that he and his family can live freely within China.

[seraosha]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

178243

[Ordie]

^^^
LOL.......you made my day.

[seraosha]

^^^
LOL.......you made my day.

glad to hear it man, this place...jeez.

[comet]

okie, that was a funny Horatio strip. Anyway isn't this topic in the general discussion too?

[shermbodius]

^^^
LOL.......you made my day.

x2. Really laught at that one.

[California Joe]

Hahaha seraosha. Nicely done....

[shermbodius]

I heard he was being threatened by some lady who said she was going to squeeze his balls to death!

[Zorro C9]

They'll give him up, it's in the best interests of US/China relations. He's just given them a reason to throw him in prison too.

[shermbodius]

Or squeeze his balls.

[gresh]

They'll give him up, it's in the best interests of US/China relations. He's just given them a reason to throw him in prison too.
haha. Good one, seroasha.

What's the protocol with defections like that and getting them asylum? How would they hypothetically get them out of the embassy with China going apesh!t? I mean, I remember hearing old Cold War stories of dissidents being smuggled in US Embassy vehicles, but wouldn't China already being expecting that?

[Zorro C9]

haha. Good one, seroasha.

What's the protocol with defections like that and getting them asylum? How would they hypothetically get them out of the embassy with China going apesh!t? I mean, I remember hearing old Cold War stories of dissidents being smuggled in US Embassy vehicles, but wouldn't China already being expecting that?

Embassy vehicles are considered under the Vienna Convention so they're technically unable to be searched.

If this were the 90s, sure, they might smuggle him out because they'd have an ideological reason to do so but not these days. Relations are far more important than one man.

[gresh]

Embassy vehicles are considered under the Vienna Convention so they're technically unable to be searched.

If this were the 90s, sure, they might smuggle him out because they'd have an ideological reason to do so but not these days. Relations are far more important than one man.
Ah, I see. Thanks.

[Zorro C9]

I did say "technically." I'm sure on occasion numberplates have been misread.

[gresh]

I did say "technically." I'm sure on occasion numberplates have been misread.
I'm not too well-informed about China, but I wouldn't put it past the CCP. Seeing how they treat NK refugees is just appalling. I'm just surprised they didn't already have police posted up in front of the US Embassy to stop this from happening. The documentary "Seoul Train" comes to mind.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCIMLGG51MY

[Zorro C9]

The stink raised from tipping out diplomats would have to be justified by someone very special like a top CCP or PLA general defecting for example.

[IconOfEvi]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

178243

A little late. but


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoPWALM2riQ&feature=related




I'm just surprised they didn't already have police posted up in front of the US Embassy to stop this from happening

As far as I know, they do. At least the South Korean one for sure.

[Zorro C9]

You have failed political forum selection.

[gresh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd7SumLc0pg&amp;feature=plcp

[[RNZE]Sapper]

My sources inside China indicates that he's didn't actually escape. He was "let out" by certain factions within the CCP as part of their maneuvers for the upcoming leadership change.

There's definitely more to this than meet the eyes.

[Ordie]

Sapper;6151404']My sources inside China indicates that he's didn't actually escape. He was "let out" by certain factions within the CCP as part of their maneuvers for the upcoming leadership change.

There's definitely more to this than meet the eyes.

We can't rule that out.

If it was an inside CCP job, to who's benefit will it be?

[gresh]

Sapper;6151404']My sources inside China indicates that he's didn't actually escape. He was "let out" by certain factions within the CCP as part of their maneuvers for the upcoming leadership change.

There's definitely more to this than meet the eyes.
I have a feeling this story is gonna get interesting. Kinda weird that other activists say he's not seeking asylum. I wonder what the consequences will be if he's returned, or walks out on his own volition. Sounds like he wants to stay in China.

[Andrew Chalmers]

If it was an inside CCP job, to who's benefit will it be?

Hardliners that are looking to derail US-Sino relations for the upcoming talks.

[Ordie]

Hardliners that are looking to derail US-Sino relations for the upcoming talks.


If the hardliners wanted to divert attention from the talks, they've would've cranked up the propaganda machine by now.
However, both sides are mum about it.

[[RNZE]Sapper]

It's still the fight between the Shanghai faction and the Chongqing faction. Chongqing is not going down so easily. Their poster boy got taken down, but the faction itself still has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies. We're only seeing the beginning of the power play. There's a lot of going-on in the background right now that will determine how this story plays out. Chongqing is definitely not going down with out a fight. We're talking about a multi-trillion dollar pie that's getting divided right now.

[[RNZE]Sapper]

One of the interesting aspect of this drama, is the fact that the US after holding onto "hero cop" for a day, gave him back, not to the CCP or China per say, but to the Shanghai faction. I would pay a dollar to know what went on between the Shanghai faction and the States department during those 24 hours. But what the US do in this situation could indicate which faction the US prefers in China. Believe it or not, the US has a pretty strong hand to play in this leadership change in China. This is a multi-regional game of thrones.

[Ordie]

Sapper;6151477']It's still the fight between the Shanghai faction and the Chongqing faction. Chongqing is not going down so easily. Their poster boy got taken down, but the faction itself still has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies. We're only seeing the beginning of the power play. There's a lot of going-on in the background right now that will determine how this story plays out. Chongqing is definitely not going down with out a fight. We're talking about a multi-trillion dollar pie that's getting divided right now.

Bo Xilai is living off his father's (Bo Yibo- Mao's swimming partner) political capital. Since Bo Yibo has passed away recently in 2007, many within the party still owe their careers to him.

[Ordie]

Sapper;6151485']One of the interesting aspect of this drama, is the fact that the US after holding onto "hero cop" for a day, gave him back, not to the CCP or China per say, but to the Shanghai faction. I would pay a dollar to know what went on between the Shanghai faction and the States department during those 24 hours. But what the US do in this situation could indicate which faction the US prefers in China. Believe it or not, the US has a pretty strong hand to play in this leadership change in China. This is a multi-regional game of thrones.

I would not doubt that the State Department political officers have personal contacts within each faction.
If anything Ambassador Gary Locke but be tired by now.

[Stefan850]

Chen Guangcheng's US-brokered deal unravels after leaving embassy

Chinese activist now pleads for help to leave China with family as US denies officials relayed threats from authorities

...Chen said he never asked to leave China (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/china) in his six days at the mission, which followed his incredible escape from a brutal 19-month regime of illegal house arrest. But he said he only left the embassy because US officials told him Chinese authorities would send his wife and children back to their home province – where they have been watched around the clock and harassed by a team of 100 guards – if he remained inside. He added that, at one point, an American official told him his wife would have been beaten to death – a claim denied by the US.
"I think we'd like to rest in a place outside of China," Chen told Associated Press, in an interview from a hospital room in the capital. "Help my family and me leave safely."
His appeal was in stark contrast to the US secretary of state Hillary Clinton's statement hours earlier, which said the handling of his stay and departure "reflected his choices and our values"....





Read more http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/02/chen-guangcheng-us-brokered-deal


Sad news. This "compromise" feels like something from "The Wire".

[Zorro C9]

Told you guys they wouldn't keep him.

[Ordie]

Everyone is going to rationalize this case and the case of the police chief seeking refuge in Chengdu.
The one common thing in both of these cases, they sought refuge with the Americans and they did not have confidence when it comes to legal protection.

[Flagg]

An example of our increasing subservience to China:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...on_643110.html

Think back to the 1980's in the US/Soviet relationship.

The US never failed to use every opportunity at its disposal to display political/economic/military superiority...good versus evil.

In China, a harmless blind dude is being persecuted for using China's own existing laws to promote civil and human rights.

And the US effectively does nothing......people could try to argue the blame lies with the Obama Administration and Hillary Clinton for failing to capitalize on this political/diplomatic opportunity or simply do the right thing.

And in some respects they would be true, the current administration led by President Obama and SecState Hillary Clinton have zero b@lls when it comes to China anymore.

But the reality is this represents a very clear milestone of the relative decline in US power and its increasing subservience to China's successful long-term economic warfare campaign against the US.

10/20/30 years ago the US would have CRUCIFIED China over this one.

Instead it is merely an incredibly awkward footnote for Hillary Clinton(currently in China) representing 325 million Americans and the free world by extent to try to ignore.

Personally, I feel embarrassed, humiliated, and disgusted.

Leadership in the US is completely non existent(and that includes Romney)......they are simply caretakers readily accepting the long slow decline and transition to what comes next.

This is so, so wrong....and no one even sees, knows, or cares.

[Zorro C9]

So in your esteemed opinion, what should the US have done?

[Flagg]

So in your esteemed opinion, what should the US have done?

Retained him in the US Embassy until such time as the Chinese Government could provide written guarantees that he and his family would not be maliciously prosecuted or intimidated simply for obeying Chinese law and using it against the state to further his civil and human rights efforts.

And allowing US and/or international human rights orgs authority to overwatch.

If China fails to fulfill it's agreement, burn China 10 ways to Sunday by putting very possible international spotlight on the situation regardless of the cost.

Hillary Clinton should have burned the Chinese on this.

Of course China would get all butt hurt and refuse...which they have clearly done....because they can now......because they have leverage over us like they've never held before....we owe them a ton of money....and they can now do whatever the hell they want because we cannot or will not stop them.

Because we are all fat, lazy, and stupid sitting home on our zero money down extra large Made in China sectional sofa, watching our Made in China Big screen LCD TV in HD that we've bought with EZ Finance we think it's all good.......but there's consequences for our collective actions, stupidity and apathy.

Those consequences include the total compromise of what we supposedly believe in, in terms of right and wrong.

We used to have the strength and the moral fibre to stand up to bullies, but we've become weak....and it's hard to stand up to a bully we owe a sh!t-ton of money to.

[Zorro C9]

And what kind of concessions do you think China would have wanted for all of that?

[shermbodius]

Flagg, the question should have been, what would Ted Nugent have done?
Seek wisdom with the right answers my friend.

:)

[Ordie]

^^^^

We don't know the circumtances.

It was my understanding that Chen desired to stay in China. I don't think Gary Locke would have thrown him under the bus.
People change thier minds.

[Trigger]

An example of our increasing subservience to China:
...

10/20/30 years ago the US would have CRUCIFIED China over this one.
Hmmm, I don't know. We didn't crucify them when they downed our EP-3 in international airspace and held the crew for what? a month.

[Mujo2000]

Retained him in the US Embassy until such time as the Chinese Government could provide written guarantees that he and his family would not be maliciously prosecuted or intimidated simply for obeying Chinese law and using it against the state to further his civil and human rights efforts.

And allowing US and/or international human rights orgs authority to overwatch.

If China fails to fulfill it's agreement, burn China 10 ways to Sunday by putting very possible international spotlight on the situation regardless of the cost.

Hillary Clinton should have burned the Chinese on this.

Of course China would get all butt hurt and refuse...which they have clearly done....because they can now......because they have leverage over us like they've never held before....we owe them a ton of money....and they can now do whatever the hell they want because we cannot or will not stop them.

Because we are all fat, lazy, and stupid sitting home on our zero money down extra large Made in China sectional sofa, watching our Made in China Big screen LCD TV in HD that we've bought with EZ Finance we think it's all good.......but there's consequences for our collective actions, stupidity and apathy.

Those consequences include the total compromise of what we supposedly believe in, in terms of right and wrong.

We used to have the strength and the moral fibre to stand up to bullies, but we've become weak....and it's hard to stand up to a bully we owe a sh!t-ton of money to.

My sofa was made in Shelbyville, TN. Thank you very much.

Why do any of what you propose? Why? US had the strenght and moral fibre to stand up to bullies? It stood up to those who didn't/don't dance after it's tune, and coddles others who do what it wants. (Mamadou Diabang, Nursultan Nazarbayev, etc.). I just don't see why we would need to show "moral fiber" when it comes to this dude. What benefit could that bring? Very little to none. You think China would somehow be intimidated?

I don't think one dude is worth all the trouble that would cause.

[Flagg]

Hmmm, I don't know. We didn't crucify them when they downed our EP-3 in international airspace and held the crew for what? a month.

The US was in trouble from the dot com crash, it had not yet kicked off the property bubble, and China was stepping up to the plate buying our T-bills for all the cheap cr@p we were buying from them......

I'd put that period in a gray area around when we still had the option to go with aggressive choices in regards to China, but have since largely lost that option due to their economic leverage over us.

[shermbodius]

Flagg, the US owes them so much money, they have become our overlords.

[Laworkerbee]

Hmmm, I don't know. We didn't crucify them when they downed our EP-3 in international airspace and held the crew for what? a month.

9/11 changed the focus, I remember Americans being pretty riled up with talk of boycotts and such.

The president embarrassed me when Chen was brought up during a news conference, nothing but ducking a weaving. And then there was Hillary "no guns for Columbia because of humans rights violations" and now she doesn't have a thing to say, not one. Pathetic.

[Ordie]

Why do any of what you propose? Why?

The US should give him a student visa to attend law school in the United States.
This way he can come and go without being granted political asylum.

Everyone saves face

[Zorro C9]

The US should give him a student visa to attend law school in the United States.
This way he can leave China with his family without being granted political asylum.

Everyone saves face

Have you forgotten who issues passports and maintains border controls in China?

[Ordie]

Have you forgotten who issues passports and maintains border controls in China?

It's a minor formality that both Chinese and American diplomats can expedite.

[Flagg]

I don't think one dude is worth all the trouble that would cause.

Well the US government certainly thinks so to distract America from FAR more important issues when it comes to Trayvon Martin incident.

In fact, this is a perfect example of the "is one guy worth all the trouble".

The media and government have aligned interests in this case.

The media make money....the government keep the sheep distracted from far bigger and far more important issues...so it suits both.

In THIS case, IF the government had the leverage over China that it USED TO HAVE it could be used for diplomatic/political benefit to push for accelerated civil/human rights reform agenda in China....and the media would play along for profit if poked enough by the administration.

But they're not....because while they CAN distract America for profit and political distraction purposes, they simply do not have the leadership and/or the leverage to over China to do the same with a blind lawyer in China.

This guy has a VERY "brand-able" story that puts him up there with the likes of:

Suu Kyi in Myanmar

Nelson Mandela in South Africa

and many others.......

Why is the Administration largely ignoring this issue at the very top?

Because the US no longer possesses the ability to really do anything about it anymore.

We gave up that ability when we sold our financial soul to China for most of the cr@p in our house.

I guarantee you if the right wing was in office the left media would crucify them over this case in China.....much as they did during the Reagan Administration with Nelson Mandela.

Are you old enough to remember the whole "Na Na Na NA NA NA....we ain't gonna play Sun City yeahhhhaa!" Artists against Apartheid.

Lethal Weapon 2.....that was an anti-apartheid movie with explosions in it.

Can't do that today in regards to China.....because Chinese money is funding Hollywood blockbusters now in partnership.

Now we see movies with a Chinese enemy Red Dawn 2, being converted to North Korean enemies so as not to offend China.

How many actors/artists make any noise against China?

Very few.....they don't want to lose acting work if they are broadcast banned in China.......the only one I'm aware of was Christian Bale, who got his clock cleaned going to visit this very guy.....most everyone else is keeping their mouths shut and cashing the Chinese cheques.

The US won the Cold War against the Soviet Union......but we are currently losing Cold War 2.0 to China.

This is but one more embarrassing indicator of that sad fact.

[Zorro C9]

It's a minor formality that both Chinese and American diplomats can expedite.

Please. Then China loses face. For all your self-appointed expertness on China, maybe you could actually go back and actually learn something of the place.

[Ordie]

There's a real "Game of Thrones" going on in China. Unlike in the past, there is no single dominant leader as we have seen with Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and Deng XiaoPeng. It a collective leadership through concensus building.

The Bo Xilao scandal exposed the divisions within the CCP and the struggle between the hardline leftist, conservatives, and reformist factions. It is in the United States best interest to support and give face to 'friendly' factions within the CCP. If we can find a face-saving 'way-out' for Chen, it may pay dividends further down the road.

Who knows?

Diplomacy is a funny game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chen case will be the "Kobayashi Maru" for diplomats in training.

[Stefan850]

I wonder what long term US plans when it comes to China are, long term as in in the next 10-15 years, what kind of a relationship the US hopes/wants to have, where do they see China in the future etc, where do they see US/Chinese relationship...do they hope that CCP will fail and the problem will go away?

Obviously, there's no need to overreact, US is still far more powerful nation but as Flagg said 10-15 years ago a possibility for the US to cave in like this was unimaginable (if the US did cave in at all, we don't know all the facts, what went on, what Chen Guangcheng actually wants or what he wanted one day ago). And China is only going to act more ballsy as she gets stronger and as the US starts to be perceived as weaker than before.

I really hope China gets "contained"...for one reason or another, US acting as world police maybe didn't turn out so good for my country (Serbia) but for world in general, all things considered, it did. And as a freedom loving person I fully support and I really hope US stays where it is, as a superpower. If god forbid in 15-20-30-40 years, China replaces US, especially this China, we are all f*cked.

[Ordie]

Please. Then China loses face.

For the Communist, it's one less dissident and headline to worry about.

[Zorro C9]

For the Communist, it's one less dissident and headline to worry about.

I'm not sure you're all there, Ordie, which is why I'm not going to play your game any more.

[Henry's Fork]

Well seeing that alot of our upstanding politicans like Feinstein, make millions every year by investing in Chinese companies.

Why would they step up and do the right thing? Hildabeast and the CCP bribe takers here in Congress dont want to give up the gravy train.

[Ordie]

I wonder what long term US plans when it comes to China are, long term as in in the next 10-15 years, what kind of a relationship the US hopes/wants to have, where do they see China in the future etc, where do they see US/Chinese relationship...do they hope that CCP will fail and the problem will go away?.

That's a loaded question that deserves its own thread.

I think the United States wants China to be a responsible international stakeholder. Especially on issues of nuclear proliferation, the environment, and trade policies.

[Ordie]

I'm not sure you're all there, Ordie, which is why I'm not going to play your game any more.

Diplomats are driven by pragmatism than ideology.

Granting Chen a student visa is a way out for all sides.

It's not a political asylum, Chen's family is safe, and it's one less dissident to worry about.

[Flagg]

Diplomats are driven by pragmatism than ideology.

Granting Chen a student visa is a way out for all sides.

It's not a political asylum, Chen's family is safe, and it's one less dissident to worry about.

Chen can be controlled in China, he can't be in the US or elsewhere.

If only everyone could be compelled to read this story to see how everyone's collective integrity has been sold to China for cheap consumer products.

We're not going to see a 2012 version of Peter Gabriel's "Biko" or the Police/Sting "Secret Policeman's Other Ball".

Because there's too much money at stake to risk p@ssing off China.

Not only am I appalled at the flacid response from the highest level of the US Administration, but not a peep from the quick to get on the protest bandwagon entertainment community.

[Laworkerbee]

"Biko" was an outstanding movie.

[shermbodius]

Where is Shawn Penn???

[Henry's Fork]

Where is Shawn Penn???

Too busy investing into Chinese companies with Feinstein and Pelosi.

Besides, commies, even fakes one like the CCP, are cool in his book.

[shermbodius]

Too busy investing into Chinese companies with Feinstein and Pelosi.

Besides, commies, even fakes one like the CCP, are cool in his book.

Too true Henry, Penn is on my latex and ball gag list. He will see the light.

:)

[Ordie]

Chen can be controlled in China, he can't be in the US or elsewhere.

Chen is more of a liablity under detention or 'control' in China.
In the US, he will be busy with his studies, and raising a familiy.
I doubt he will have any clients for a while.


Because there's too much money at stake to risk p@ssing off China.

There are other issues to consider as well. Most notably nuclear proliferation in North Korea and Iran.


Not only am I appalled at the flacid response from the highest level of the US Administration

I'm not surprised. Obama and Clinton tend to prefer quiet diplomacy than grandstanding.


but not a peep from the quick to get on the protest bandwagon entertainment community.

The Anti-Aparthied Divestment campaign was started at the grassroots level. There was clear direction, leadership and goal. The imposition of sanctions over-road President Reagan's veto by the majority of Congress including his closest political allies.

Given the Occupy Wall Street track record for organizing, leading and creating change, I doubt we'll see somthing similar done to China.

[Stefan850]

Yet the plight of Mr Chen raises two deeper questions about his own country. The first is whether China still feels it must put its relations with America before anything else. In past disputes, notably the aerial collision of a Chinese fighter and an American spyplane in 2001, China has tended eventually to put America first—as the source of trade and wealth and the policeman for the global commons. But China is stronger now, its economy is bigger, it can defend its own shores and it expects to carry weight in the world—especially as, in the view of some triumphalists in Beijing, America has been dragged down by the financial crash and its vicious partisan politics.
If Mr Chen is now punished and Barack Obama is humiliated, that will signal a troubling shift in the terms of the superpowers’ relations. A wounded, suspicious America and a rampant China, bent on winning the respect it thinks its due, set the stage for dysfunction at best and conflict at worst. It would be a terrible outcome for both superpowers and for the world. They should strive to patch things up.



Read more http://www.economist.com/node/21554247


edit, one more article:



As the State Department tried frantically to reassess the options for Mr. Chen, who is now at a hospital in Beijing being treated for an injured foot, senior American officials privately acknowledged missteps in the handling of the case. The United States failed to guarantee access to Mr. Chen at the hospital, they said, leaving him isolated and fearful that China would renege on its pledge not to harass him and to allow him to resume his legal studies.The diplomats also rushed their negotiations with the Chinese government to try to resolve the situation before the start of two days of talks with China on economic and security issues, led by Mrs. Clinton and Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, these officials said. That left no time to obtain firm, detailed assurances from Chinese officials on how they would treat Mr. Chen, a blind lawyer and activist who had been exposed to years of house arrest and beatings in his home village in eastern China and last month escaped to the United States Embassy in Beijing.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/world/asia/chen-guangchengs-plea-for-protection-deepens-a-crisis.html?_r=1

[JKD]

U.S. says dissident Chen offered university fellowship

..."The Chinese Government has indicated that it will accept Mr. Chen's applications for appropriate travel documents. The United States government expects that the Chinese government will expeditiously process his applications for these documents, and make accommodations for his current medical condition," she added.

"The United States government would then give visa requests for him and his immediate family priority attention."


http://news.yahoo.com/u-says-dissident-chen-offered-university-fellowship-121907094--business.html

[PassKey]

Because there's too much money at stake to risk p@ssing off China.


One Word: Pathetic

[Mujo2000]

http://news.yahoo.com/u-says-dissident-chen-offered-university-fellowship-121907094--business.html

Seems Ordie had the right idea.

Weird...

[Ordie]

Seems Ordie had the right idea.

Weird...

Maybe I should send my application to the State Department.

[California Joe]

Must be a nightmare for diplomats. Like those asshole hikers wandering into Iran.

[Ordie]

Must be a nightmare for diplomats.

Good training.

No doubt this will be the "Kobayashi Maru" for diplomats in training.