Question about the m60 machine gun

[sinblox]

Hi,

I notice in some pictures from Iraq that the M60 machine gun is still in service there. What's the purpose of using it as opposed to the M240? They're both 7.62 and the M240 is considered a superior machine gun isn't it?

Is there certain advantages to the m60 or reasons why they use it still?

Thanks

[dghost]

the M240 was originally designed to be pintle or coaxial mounted on tanks, helicopters, armored vehicles, etc. it weighs more than the M60 and is generally believed to be more reliable and easier to maintain.

the M60 is a couple of lbs lighter than the M240B (24.2 vs 27.6), while the M60E3 is almost 9lbs lighter than the M240B (18.75 vs 27.6). however, many believe that the changes required to shed that much weight have also decreased reliability of the weapon.

as far as them still being used... my understanding is that the Army has pretty much replaced all the M60's with M240's, and that the Navy, Marines and Air Force still field both for different roles (vehicles get M240/C/D's, with M60's still being fielded for squad roles - depending on unit and availability of course).

thats the differences i am aware of - anyone who has hands on experience with both please comment on this. personally, i've only used a M240B and can testify to the fact that it will fire all day long if you keep it oiled up. Considering my experiences with M16's (and a lot of peoples views on their reliability) I tend to think the M60 probably would too if it is properly maintained.

edit: I just remembered two other things. as I recall, the M60 has the ability for ammunition containers to be fixed to it, where as the M240 generally lacks that (although I have no doubt there are ways to attach ammunition containers to the M240). the other thing is that the M240 is a little bit longer than the M60.

[sinblox]

Thanks dghost, very good information, I appreciate it.

[ogukuo72]

the M240 was originally designed to be pintle or coaxial mounted on tanks, helicopters, armored vehicles, etc. it weighs more than the M60 and is generally believed to be more reliable and easier to maintain.

the M60 is a couple of lbs lighter than the M240B (24.2 vs 27.6), while the M60E3 is almost 9lbs lighter than the M240B (18.75 vs 27.6). however, many believe that the changes required to shed that much weight have also decreased reliability of the weapon.

as far as them still being used... my understanding is that the Army has pretty much replaced all the M60's with M240's, and that the Navy, Marines and Air Force still field both for different roles (vehicles get M240/C/D's, with M60's still being fielded for squad roles - depending on unit and availability of course).

thats the differences i am aware of - anyone who has hands on experience with both please comment on this. personally, i've only used a M240B and can testify to the fact that it will fire all day long if you keep it oiled up. Considering my experiences with M16's (and a lot of peoples views on their reliability) I tend to think the M60 probably would too if it is properly maintained.

edit: I just remembered two other things. as I recall, the M60 has the ability for ammunition containers to be fixed to it, where as the M240 generally lacks that (although I have no doubt there are ways to attach ammunition containers to the M240). the other thing is that the M240 is a little bit longer than the M60.

If I'm not wrong, the M240 is derived from the FN MAG. It's a GPMG - as such, it is designed for both pintle-mounted role and squad MG role - not specifically for pintle-mount or co-axial.

Just one other comment: I don't think anyone would want to fix a can directly to a GPMG in the squad MG role. If it is pintle mounted, it doesn't make a difference as the can goes on the pintle.

[Hullebullen]

Not that it matters but I can't recall seeing the M60 in any of the photos or news from Iraq...

[shrek]

All units, especially Guard units, haven't gotten the 240 yet. Therefore......the old M-60 still works

[dghost]

thank you for reminding me that the M240 is pretty much the FN MAG. I had entirely forgotten about it.

from what I understood the original M240 fielded by the US Army was aimed at the coax/pintle mounted crowd (and lacked the buttstock + a few other items), with the M240B/G variants being the ground variant that was fielded later as the squad machine gun. buuutttt... since the FN MAG existed in both capabilities before the Army ever fielded it, I am not really sure why it would be documented as having been designed for a ground role. oh well...

as far as having ammunition fixed straight to the machine gun... the ability to attach a drum or bag of ammo (kind of a like the M240/FN MiniMi) makes it far easier for a single person to carry and operate the weapon if it is required. crew served is great, but that ability made the M60 just that more versatile.

Hullebullen - I saw a number of M60's in use by the Air Force while over there... they are still around and kicking...

shrek - thanks for that info. I rarely hear about guard units and their equipment.

[shrek]

Trivia; The 240 was designed before the M-60.

It is, in my opinion, a much finer weapon. The venerable bullet hose. Had one hell of a shoot out with one of those things. Got my star standing behind one of those things, so they're pretty special too me. Not in a ****** way, well, they are kinda sexy......wait one, gotta go to the mens room for a minute ;-)

[Erik_MAA]

I used an M60 in the first Gulf War, and found that like any other firearm it worked very well, if properly maintained. In a place like the desert, constant weapons maintenance is a necessity.

One thing my unit did as an expedient was use the lubricant designed for the Mk19 on our small arms as well. I can't remember what it was called, but it worked well in the desert environment.

The M240 is definitely a better design though, and it's nice to see the US Army finally adopted it for ground use (after using on the M1 Abrams for so long).

[FallenAngel]

ah, more trivia. The M-60 was based on the German MG42. The M60 (supposedly) being an "improvement" on the design.

Why on earth they just didn't adopt the MG42/MG3 is beyond me.

[fantassin]

Actually, it was the FG 42, the German paratrooper rifle, not the MG42 which influenced the M60.

"The FG-42 made no direct impact on the postwar developments in small arms, except that it served as a basis for relatively unspectacular American M60 machine gun".

from gun.ru

[Scrim]

The USMC got rid of the M60 awhile back, I was in a reserve unit in 97 when we got our ****beaters on the M240G.
As I recall all the recent pictures Ive seen of the M60 still in use, have been Air Force.

Heres another piece of trivia for you all.

As most of you know, the M240 was originally adopted by the US Army as a coaxial MG for the M1 Abrams tank. After Desert Storm, the USMC was casting about for a replacement for the M60E3, whose performance was decidely underwhelming. An enterprising Marine discovered that the Army had around 12,000 M240 coax models in excess of their TO&E. The General Accounting Office was contacted, and was convinced to declare the extra M240 as 'Surplus.' Despite Army attempts to block the transfer, the USMC was able to snatch up 7,000 M240 for free (or almost free). The only real cost came with cost of procuring conversion kits (buttstocks and other asundry parts) from FN to create what we now know as the M240G.

[shrek]

The Marines did the same things with some old Army sniper rifles a while back, had them accurized and voila, new snipes!

[Michael RVR]

More trivia :
For reasons that i dont fully comprehend, you cant switch parts between M240's and Mag 58's.

Why you couldn't do a proper copy i've no idea. :roll: ;)

A few guys i know actually made plastic like ammo containers for Mag 58's which attached to the ... hinge that the door that the spare casings fall through (i can never remember the names of those ****ing things) ... that was made out of like a plastic , and held about 100 rounds.

Apparently they were pretty good, word got passed up the system about them but never anything was heard.. :| ;)

[Hydro]

A few guys i know actually made plastic like ammo containers for Mag 58's which attached to the ... hinge that the door that the spare casings fall through (i can never remember the names of those f*** things) ... that was made out of like a plastic , and held about 100 rounds.

Apparently they were pretty good, word got passed up the system about them but never anything was heard.. :| ;)

The S. Africans issued a cloth bag for the MAG that contained 150 rounds, the Brits and Belgians have steel boxes that hold 100 rounds, both types clamp to the side.

[crazyman]

takes a loong time to replace that many weapons, so there are still a goodly number of reserve and guard units with the M60. I've had the chance to use the M60 a few times when i was in ROTC, never had any problems with it...just maintain the thing. heavy bastard though

[James]

A few guys i know actually made plastic like ammo containers for Mag 58's which attached to the ... hinge that the door that the spare casings fall through (i can never remember the names of those f*** things) ... that was made out of like a plastic , and held about 100 rounds.

Apparently they were pretty good, word got passed up the system about them but never anything was heard.. :| ;)

The S. Africans issued a cloth bag for the MAG that contained 150 rounds, the Brits and Belgians have steel boxes that hold 100 rounds, both types clamp to the side.

I like to load a 200 round belt and hang it over my left arm, around my neck - you get the picture.

[digrar]

With extra link slung across your bare chest? :P

[SamHamam]

the Brits and Belgians have steel boxes that hold 100 rounds, both types clamp to the side.

..but don't use them (the brits anyway) as they rattle enough to wake the dead.

[Hydro]

the Brits and Belgians have steel boxes that hold 100 rounds, both types clamp to the side.

..but don't use them (the brits anyway) as they rattle enough to wake the dead.

That be true, but I've seen one picture of one being used on Telic.

[Hydro]

With extra link slung across your bare chest? :P

If the avatars anything to go by, looks as if he's already smuggling 8 40mms on his stomach...

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

With extra link slung across your bare chest? :P
No clothes at all I guess, to avoid getting the link caught.

[Porta_jon]

how much do all these guns way with an attached ammo can?

[Backis]

Us Swedes use old recycled gasmask bags... :lol:

Works fine anyway.

I love the MAG... real PITA to lug around in the woods, but when its hosing time... p-)

[Royal]

The S. Africans issued a cloth bag for the MAG that contained 150 rounds, the Brits and Belgians have steel boxes that hold 100 rounds, both types clamp to the side.

In the Province we used to use bastardised waterbottle pouches. They held 50 rounds nicely, enabling you to patrol with enough on the weapon to get some rounds back at the boyos before you had to get someone to dig in your daysac for more.

I've used the metal box mags, but only ever for anti aircraft shoots on board ship.

[Jackel]

Let me break it down to ya, The 60 is still in some inventories (N. Guard Units) however slowly making there way out.

As for the Corps we got rid of the M60E (Piece of sh*t)in 1995. And replaced it with the M240G.

Pros- M240G, Very reliable and takes the fight to the enemy, what a MG should do.
M60E, Light, foward hand grip (good for offensive tatics) and looks good on Rambo I & II

Cons- M240G is heavy and no foward hand grip (like the M60E) not the best offensive design.

M60E-has a single tooth for feeding ammo into chamber, jams. fequently.

That is my two cents.

[Apogee]

The m60G (its g isn't it?) It is still used on Blackhawks because it has the thumb trigger mechanism like the ma duece.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

What, no one mentioned the lack of a quick change barrel on the (earlier versions at least) M60?


The m60G (its g isn't it?) It is still used on Blackhawks because it has the thumb trigger mechanism like the ma duece.

THe MAG can also be fitted with one, as well as different buttstocks for vehicle and foot roles




A few guys i know actually made plastic like ammo containers for Mag 58's which attached to the ... hinge that the door that the spare casings fall through (i can never remember the names of those f*** things) ... that was made out of like a plastic , and held about 100 rounds.

ejection port cover ;)


Slight Hijack: Does the US and British army use their GPMGs in an indirect role? Here in the CF, we use a bastartized system composed of a British tripod, trilux aiming posts, and a C2 mortar sight. With the proper firing tables it works quite well for indirect fire at short ranges (~1km or so). What kind of accessories do you use?

[SamHamam]

Slight Hijack: Does the US and British army use their GPMGs in an indirect role? Here in the CF, we use a bastartized system composed of a British tripod, trilux aiming posts, and a C2 mortar sight. With the proper firing tables it works quite well for indirect fire at short ranges (~1km or so). What kind of accessories do you use?

The UK uses the same kit for the SF (Sustained Fire) role as the Canadians.

By the way the RAF uses M60s as door guns on their Chinooks, persumably as they couldn't be bothered to go though the rigmarole of getting GPMG fitments approved.

[Jack Mehoff]

Yes, some Army reserve and NG units still use M60 as a crew served weapon since they are low on funding for newer weapon.

Took these earlier this year and I swear to god, these M60's I shot earlier this year probably made in Vietnam era. It's still spitting rounds down range and will put a can of whoop ass if need be.

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/965/wtf5.jpg

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/989/wtf6.jpg

http://img20.exs.cx/img20/9540/DSC00111.jpg