Toni Smith's Flag Protest

[Cpl Stumps]

Hello all,

I don't now if anyone has heard of her, but Toni Smith is a basketball player and Manhattanville College in N.Y. She has decided to protest the American Flag by turning her back to it during the playing of the National Athem. Her reason is:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

I will never deny a person their First Amendment Right, but I feel her actions are disgraceful to those that have fought and died under that flag. I feel there is a time and place for all things and that she should choose a better time for her protest. I wrote the president and asked him to have her not come out on the court until after the National Athem, that way she can express her rights without infringing on the rights of those that believe in the flag for their own reasons. I also pointed out in my e-mail to the president that if she feels so strongly about inequalities, what if anything is she doing to correct them beside making a sensational production out her protest. Is she volunteering at shelters, or cleaning up parks in underprivilaged neighborhoods, or she just being sensational.

I feel the American flag stands for the brave men and women who have served this country, not a particular political party.

Anyway, if anyone feels that same and would like to e-mail the president here is his e-mail: President@mville.edu.


Dave

[JiJoMacLE45]

Your absolutely right. So many people complain about things, but never offer any solutions. If you've got a problem, at least let's here an idea about how to try and make things better.

And as far as this country not bettering the quality of life, tell me a country that has a better quality of life than ours or a country that gives you the freedoms and liberties afforded in this great nation. I'm sure she'd have some great things to say about equality if she lived in Afghanistan where she would have been beaten for taking off her burkha just to make her assinine remarks.

Quality of life, hey I don't know about you, but I'm happy that suicide bombers are not blowing themselves up on street corners and that poison gas attacks are not occuring on our subways and airplanes are not crashing into buildings. I can drive to a supermarket and buy a loaf of fresh bread and some milk without having to wait in hour long lines with hundreds of others. I'm not in danger of a rebel army coming into my town and wiping out my whole neighborhood. I can even stand up and go on about how much I hate this country and our president and not be in danger of having the secret police ship me off to a reeducation camp or just kill me in my house for voicing my opinions out loud.

Quality of life. I love the quality of life in this country.

I do not get these friggin people.

[Ratamacue]

Most celebrities who are "standing up" to America and all that BS have no actual interest in what they're protesting against. They're just trying to bolster their career and get people to think they're some amazingly-intelligent liberal who stands up for the rights of people, even though they're plenty happy making their millions of dollars per year while others suffer, in the US and out.

[Jackal419]

The way I feel is if you don't want to be here, then leave. I don't feel like someone who isn't grate for the country they live in.

[BMF]

amen jackal, amen. not agreeing with your government is one thing, that is well and good. but that flag represents this nation, not the people in office at this moment. if she has a problem with this nation, she can feel free to leave...because she is just that: free, thanks to people who defend that flag which she denounces

[GazB]

I believe those who died defending your nation were fighting for something they believed in.

This Toni Smith person seems to be standing up for something they believe in too.

Her protest does not invove the burning of a flag, or the destruction of anything. Her actions are not stopping you from facing and saluting the falg either so she is not interfering with your rights either.

By going to a shelter she might help 20 people in a morning. By making this stand she might change the minds of thousands.

Land of the free?

Seems to be more like show a different opinion then go and live in Russia.

Hardly the America I see on TV and in Books.

Lets not improve ourselves or question our own actions... lets just hunker down and fight the world.

[GearGod]

Did you guys see the look on her face when she did that? I wouldve ran up there and executed a perfect flying side kick center mass :lol: How old is this girl anyway? I wonder what her parents thought? What kind of child did they raise? I wonder if they punished her for doing such a thing?

[cut]

but wait..
adam, your sig says "defend freedom"
but isn't this girl just expressing her right to FREEDOM of speech?
:P

[JiJoMacLE45]

I support freedom of speech, I support a person's right to their own opinion. That's fine that she is expressing her freedom of speech, I have no problem with that. She says she does not agree with the lives taken and violence used to keep the US at the top of the food chain, okay I can see how she might come to the conclusion. I forget the girl's name, but after a game, an opposing player whose brother was in the military refused to shake Smith's hand and said she was disgusted with her actions. Then Toni Smith takes a swing at her. The girl did not spit on her or yell at her or even overtly insult her. She simply stated she disagreed with Smith's stance. The same thing Smith is saying about how she feels about the flag, she disagrees with it b/c of the violence it has resorted to. Yet Smith has to resort to violence to validate her own claim. Sounds like someone is not backing up what they are trying to shovel out.

[papabear]

I'm building on BMF's response...

Without stepping into the quagmire of a prolonged discussion of political theory, I think we can agree that her action, even if it is protected by the Constitution, symbolizes a lack of proper respect towards the country--a lack of patriotism, according to its proper meaning. To take an analogy, somone might curse our parents (i.e. wishing them evil) or use profanity or verbally disrespect them in some other way, and the case can be made that this is constitutionally protected speech, but we shouldn't have any hesitation saying that this kind of action is wrong, even if it has legal sanction. (I prefer to side with the view that simply because something is legal according to civil law does not mean that the law is just or right.)

Of course, it appears that she intended her action as a sign of disapproval of the government (maybe even as a sign of disrespect towards the government as well), rather than a sign of disrespect towards the country. She simply doesn't have a proper understanding of what the flag symbolizes, and someone should straighten her out on this matter.

[GearGod]

cut:

humor - The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd

anger - strong feeling of displeasure or hostility. To make angry; enrage or provoke

[GazB]

JiJoMacLE45
If what you say is true then you are right in the sense that she is being rather inconsistant.

Not being American I really don't understand your levels of patriotism. Here in New Zealand we are proud of who we are and where we came from, but we don't waste time singing the national anthem and saluting the flag before a university basketball game. If our national team plays... sure the anthem is sung, but not for just any old game.

I think the difference between the actions of this girl and her opponent is that this girl seems to have been protesting the actions of her government. Unless the US of A wants to become a communist country I don't think your suggestions of Exile are appropriate.
Her opponent was, by not shaking the hand of her opponent, not making a political statement, she was being unsportsmanlike.
She could have shaken her hand and still said what she said.

Having said that it shows a lack of maturity for the girl to have attacked her opponent, whether it was for not shaking her hand or for disagreeing with her.

[Apogee]

Ok, exile is a little much, I'll agree to that. I think Voltaie said it best "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death for
your right to say it." Thats basically the way i feel, except I disagree with her method of protest.

First, protesting or disrespecting the flag is much different then protesting the government. That flag stands for every man who's died in some forien hell hole so that we can be safe. It stands for all of the political activists throught the country's history that have made life a little better.

Second, a college basketball game is not the place for protest. She then brings in parties which do not wish to be envolved in such a protest. I'm sure that her college does not want to be seen as an un-american istitution. Just my views...

[Ichhabe]

Sometimes it is really really really really really hard to understand Americans. Really hard!

[JiJoMacLE45]

The part about her taking a swing at an opponent was on ESPN's Beyond(Behind, I can't remember the name) the Lines. It also shows her boyfriend getting into a yelling match with the fans of the opposing team b/c they were waving American flags and booing at Smith.

Who said exile? Not me.

But USMA_SCUBA is right, the flag does not represent whoever is living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. It represents what this country stands for, FREEDOM. This country was founded by men and women who wanted to be free from oppressive rule. Free to practice their religion of choice, free to live their lives the way they choose without being persecuted. And that is what it still stands for. You do not have to like the government to understand that. Without freedom, Toni Smith would not be able to voice her opinions. Sure, she will be criticized for taking those views, but no one is going to hang her from a street light b/c she feels the way she does.

And to all of those people who criticize this nation for its policies or practices, show me a nation that has done more for the world then we have. Show me a nation that has the freedoms and liberties that we do. Show me a country where the quality of life is better then it is here.

[JiJoMacLE45]

What's so hard to understand about us?

[Ichhabe]

I can't explain that to an American. Like we say in a Combat Engineer squad; It cannot be explained, you have to experience it. And you as an American, cannot experience how to not understand an American. (hehe)
(And for the record; this is from someone that likes the USA, and Americans, no matter how much flaws they have.)

[JiJoMacLE45]

Try me, you'd be surprised what an experienced American can understand.

[GazB]

I'd advise against it Ichabe... once a non american starts pointing out all the things America has done for itself rather than the rest of the world and claimed it had done it for the rest of the world the Americans in the audience start to get quite defencive and precious.
You end up being ungratefull so and so's that we shuda nvr saved in dubya dubya one and dubya dubya two.


Needless to say, a flag is just a flag.
(In your case a piece of fabric representing the number of states in your union with lines and stars.)

"That flag stands for every man who's died in some forien hell hole so that we can be safe. It stands for all of the political activists throught the country's history that have made life a little better. "

If the flag stands for the freedoms fought for and won by the blood of your forefathers (and mothers)...

"I'm sure that her college does not want to be seen as an un-american istitution. Just my views..."

Why do you see her exercising that freedom as unAmerican?

Was all that American blood spilled so that she could just shut up and ignore what is happening and do what the government tells her?
After all they did get about 50% of the vote a few years ago... they must know everything about being a government.


... actually JiJoMacLE45 I am not giving you the benefit of the doubt and just assuming some things in my first comment in this post.

Can you explain how YOU think the US helps the world and we can start from there.

[Ichhabe]

As you can see, I havent tried to explain. I am not putting my foot in to that bear trap. Cause, if I do so there will be misunderstandings. There is always one that want to raise havoc on what I say. So I'm not even gonna try that.

But hear this my American friends; As a foreigner, it is quite amazing/wonderful/shocking/unbelivable to look in to your playgrond. Belive me on that. Many a times I thought I've seen it all, but then something incredible happens that make my jaw drop even further down, and my eyes even open wider.
But then, it is maybe that whats make the USA so fun to love and dislike(sometimes).

[JiJoMacLE45]

We are the world's reality television show.

[Trigger]

Gaz, to you our flag is a piece of fabric with colors and symbols. Nothing more. To me The Flag is The Symbol of what unifies us, of what makes this the greatest nation on earth, and what makes other countries envious of what we have achieved. People like Toni Smith who don't take the time to understand the history of The Flag before they protest its presence are ignorant fools. She has no idea what people went through in the past so she can play basketball and go to college for FREE. People have bled to death for the 'piece of fabric' she wipes her ass with. Am I 'tooting my own horn'? You're damn right I am. The U.S. has earned that right. You don't have to like it, but it is the truth.

[papabear]

Just some support for Trigger's last post...

If the flag were nothing more than a cloth creation using fabrics of various different colors and had no meaning beyond that, then obviously this discussion would have not begun in the first place--Miss Smith would have no good reason to do what she did. But by her very action, she acknowledged that the flag is indeed more than a piece of fabric, that it symbolizes something else, and it is what the flag symbolizes that she is protesting/disrespecting.

An analogy: if a tombstone were just a piece of rock with scratches on it, then destroying it might be a morally neutral action. However, the tombstone is more than a piece of rock--it is as a symbol or sign of the dead person, and to destroy the tombstone is an act of vandalism which at the same time is an act of disrespect to the deceased.

[GazB]

Trigger
"...of what makes this the greatest nation on earth, and what makes other countries envious of what we have achieved."

Hehehehe... seems to make you modest too.

May shock you, but most countries tell its citizens that it is the best country in the world. This has very little to do with flags.
As you say a flag is a symbol that represents something... but you are confusing the symbol with the real thing.

"People like Toni Smith who don't take the time to understand the history of The Flag before they protest its presence are ignorant fools. "

See, now your symbol has the same history that the thing it represents has... does that make sense?

"She has no idea what people went through in the past so she can play basketball and go to college for FREE. "

Yes... all the people who preceded her in US history did what they did so that she could go to school for free, so she should shut the hell up and be a good little follower... cause that is what Americans are... followers.... they do what they are told without using their brains... that is what the US fought the Germans for... to make everyone toe the line and do as they are told by their government....
(I am being sarcastic... her ancestors did what they did for their own reasons... perhaps she targetted the flag because the recognises the power it has in your society and she wanted to use that power to make your government listen... they certainly don't seem to be listening to anyone else... like their allies in Europe.)

"People have bled to death for the 'piece of fabric' she wipes her ass with. "

You are being more offensive than she is... you are suggesting your ancestors bled to death for toilet paper!!!

Your exaggerations of what she actually did disrespect your forefathers more than anything she could do. She is exercising her right to freedom of protest. I believe that is actually one thing those who fought and bled for your flag actually did fight for.

"You don't have to like it, but it is the truth."

But is it the truth? Did she really wipe her bottom with a US flag or did she just use it as a symbol or her protest at what her government is doing?

If this upsets you, you must bawl like a baby at the huge US flag sales in the Middle East... they don't hang them outside their houses you know...

"Miss Smith would have no good reason to do what she did. "

Did we hear about her position before she said she would do this?
Did we hear about her position after she said she would do this?

If she wanted to be heard it seems she chose the right method... it certainly worked.

"that it symbolizes something else, and it is what the flag symbolizes that she is protesting/disrespecting. "

Did she burn it? Did she attack it with a pair of scissors? Did she wipe her bottom with it?
No.
She stated clearly why she did what she did, and she didn't say she thought her ancestors did a bad job, or that what they fought for was a waste of time. She stated it was a protest against the current government of the USA for its current policy.

Yet you still don't know what she did or why she did it.


"An analogy: if a tombstone were just a piece of rock with scratches on it, then destroying it might be a morally neutral action. However, the tombstone is more than a piece of rock--it is as a symbol or sign of the dead person, and to destroy the tombstone is an act of vandalism which at the same time is an act of disrespect to the deceased."

Would be true if she stated she was doing this cause she hated all of America and everything it represents (which seems to be what the flag symbolises to most americans here). She would also have to have destroyed the flag for it to be vandalism. She did neither, yet the level of animosity would suggest she did both.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Well GazB, Ichabe said it best, "It can not be explained, you have to experience it".

If you were from the US you'd understand why we harbor such vehement disgust for Toni Smith's actions and her protest against the American flag.

We all know people who have put their lives on the line for this country, some of us know people who have given their lives for this country and its flag.

The flag is a symbol of our freedoms, liberties, and rights. By protesting the flag, she is protesting the very rights which she is exercising. I've said it before, if she disagrees w/ the government's policies, fine. Old Glory does not represent the government, the president, or any political administration. It represents every single one of us that are proud to call ourselves Americans. When she turns her back on that flag, she turns her back on all of us.

[GazB]

"If you were from the US you'd understand why we harbor such vehement disgust for Toni Smith's actions and her protest against the American flag. "

She didn't protest against the US flag, she used the US flag to protest against the US governments' actions.

At a time when the US is preparing to go to war, don't you think it is also time to stand up for what you believe in and actually use those rights your kin fought so hard for?

Perhaps if there were more Toni Smiths 40 years ago Vietnam would be a country instead of a war where millions lost their lives for the wrong reasons.

[JiJoMacLE45]

By turning her back on the flag during our national anthem, whether she intended to or not, she is protesting the flag.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Which makes even less sense when you think about it b/c when the national anthem is being played, she stands. But she does not face the flag. So she in essence, respects the one, but not the other. Confused girl.

[Trigger]

OK, Gaz I'll end my input on this subject with this because you seem to not understand her hypocrisy and you just want to jump on the 'we hate America because of this, this, this, and this...' bandwagon:

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

hmmm...inequalities embedded in the American system? does she mean the fact that people of color get preferential treatment in school selection and job selection even though they may not meet the 'normal' standards?
And they're getting worse?

hmmm...we are not bettering the quality of life for our people? or other people? does she mean the attempt to REDUCE the amount of money the government takes from us each year? or maybe she doesn't understand that the women of Afghanistan can actually walk outside without a birqua and not be stoned to death now.

I wonder if she 'in good conscience' will still accept the good salary (in American dollars) she'll probably be able to get once she receives her diploma. A diploma from a college. A college that allows women. She should remove her foot and close her mouth and open a geography book and try to understand that this country is one of the few where she is ALLOWED and encouraged to educate herself, probably on a basketball scholarship -read free-

I bet she'll stand up and salute those little green flags with all their little inequalities and zeros on them.

Pure Hypocrisy.

Out.

[GazB]

She stated quite clearly what she was doing and why...

The fact that someone who is not American can understand suggests it was plain enough.


"So she in essence, respects the one, but not the other. Confused girl."

Not really. If she was as you are suggesting, trying to disrespect America and everything it stands for and everyone who has shed blood or lost blood for it as a country then I would have expected her to do to your national anthem what Rosanne did a while back. The Fact that she stood for the anthem at all shows she is just trying to do what she stated she was going to do. Protest the actions of your current government.

Trigger

Yes, there was no way I was going to sneak one of my 10,000 word little essays here about how the US is the root of all evil and that the rest of the world should rise up and send them vigourously worded letters of protest and turn our backs at US flags at every opportunity... now you are supposed to say something like "If you are not with us then you are against us and really alienate some of your long term allies".

A girl turned her back on a flag during a college basketball game... lets send her into exile... brand her as unAmerican!!!!

Do you understand the concept of overreaction?

"or maybe she doesn't understand that the women of Afghanistan can actually walk outside without a birqua and not be stoned to death now. "

Many parts of Afghanistan still use Sharia law, as do many courts in Pakistan... and many other countries the US supports with aid?


The US is perfect, how dare her to suggest further changes are needed?

Imagine a Democracy that actually lets it citizens make peaceful protests and criticise their government... what is the world coming to?

The Federal police should go in there and drag her of in the middle of the night... and some of her family members and supporters too... we ned a neat symbol though... knives are cool... lets call it night of the long knives... the way the SS did in Germany...

[Trigger]

OK, I lied I'm not finished yet.


Imagine a Democracy that actually lets it citizens make peaceful protests and criticise their government... what is the world coming to?

The Federal police should go in there and drag her of in the middle of the night... and some of her family members and supporters too... we ned a neat symbol though... knives are cool... lets call it night of the long knives... the way the SS did in Germany...

As far as I know there have been no death squads dispatched to her dorm room by 'Big Brother'. She's obviously perfectly free to openly display her hypocrisy...

and as far as 'peaceful protests' like THIS FORUM, if I understand you correctly, she can turn her back on Our Flag and she's a bold, courageous champion of the 1st Amendment....

But if I or others say we don't like it...we're NAZIs???

I'm putting on a life jacket now, because your bull**** is getting deep.

FYVM

[GazB]

Trigger
That is not true.

"But if I or others say we don't like it...we're NAZIs??? "

You didn't say you didn't like it, you said she was being disrespectful to those who came before her and gave her her rights. Some even suggested she should have those rights taken away from her, or that she should be no longer considered American (ie have her citizenship revoked) and be deported... the way the Nazis did, except they chose to exterminate those who did not conform to their ideals.

If all you had said was that you disagreed with what she had to say and the method she used to say it then you would be exercising the same right she did.

[Ratamacue]

I think people were exaggerating when they said her rights should be removed/exiled/etc. If they weren't, then I have no respect for them nor do they represent the majority of us here.

I agree that what she did was wrong. Protesting the government is one thing. Disrespecting those who fought and/or died for this country and others is another, in my opinion. Had she just been protesting the government's plans for war on Iraq, I still wouldn't have been happy because I don't like pacifists, but I wouldn't have been nearly as angry.

However, she decided to protest the good men and women who fought in every American war, just or unjust. Even if she didn't mean to do this, she should really think about exactly what she's doing before she does it.

To rehash, Gaz, anyone who meant that her rights should be taken away/etc. is way out of line and doesn't represent the vast majority of Americans on this board.

And if you're an anti-American, so be it. You can think that way. But I really think most anti-Americans need to figure out exactly why they are just that and whether their reasons are just or not.

Let's try to keep this civil, though. I don't think you're an idiot like SOME people on this board, in fact you seem to be able to back up your posts relatively well, though I think you took this whole thing somewhat too seriously.

[redondomarine]

Gaz I dont think you understand the pride americans have for ourselves. We do kiss our own ass because we started as an oppressed set of collonies(13 stripes) of farmers and fought a super power and one our independance. Over the years men have died over our flag,[Litterally].

In the wars that involved muskets there was always atleast one color guard in the battle. Im sure you have seen these men running across the battle field with a flag. As you could quess this made them a target. Being assingned to a color guard was a like a death sentence. It was also the highest honor one could hold on the field of battle. When the person holding the color(flag) would fall there would always be someone to scramble for it and keep advancing. Then he would be shot down and the next man would go pick it up.

I can speak for other countries but I know the majority of americans have an unexplainable conection to the flag and the star spangle banner. Every time it hear i get goose bumps. Every morning I say the pledge of aligance with pride. Every time i solute the color i am overcome with a feeling of pride. Im willing to fight and possibly die for this. To see someone show those type of feelings torwards the flag is a big deal in our culture. Just because we have a first amendment doesn't mean that people should use it every chance she gets. She is uneducated on the subject and proves that as she does this. I asure you on that campus there are anti government clubs where she can go protest in a non-offensive way. The flag doesn't represent the government in power, it is our symbol of everything we have done and accomplished.

[a. enders]

Like it was stated,if she'sdoing all the things she's claiming the country needs to do,then she has a point.Otherwise she's a hypocrite and (probably) a sensationalist media-hog.Same goes for celebs and all that BS.Funny thing is that people equate flag to country.That flag does not represent the government or their wrong-doings.It represents the core sirit of what America is.A place of freedom and equality.I find it slightly amusing when I see someone burn a flag becuase they hate our government,it's like breaking your screendoor because they don't like the occupants of your house (of course it offends me,but there is that one side).If she genuinely feels the need to stand up for her own values and feels that saluting the flag would impede on them,then good for her.But if shes doing it under the misguided idea that the flag is the American geovernment,uh...whoops. :oops:

[GazB]

"And if you're an anti-American, so be it. "

Ummm, if I am anti American why would I be defending and AMERICAN that is exercising her rights... based on the AMERICAN CONSTITUTION?

I really don't care anymore... just call me anti american if it makes you feel better.

"Let's try to keep this civil, though. "

Absolutely. I understand the level of feeling you have, I just think that is missplaced. Do you really think everything your forefathers have done could be undone or tarnished by a girl not facing a flag at a college basketball game?
Is the US and its people really that fragile?

I think you are stronger than that... let it go. A girl did something you should be proud of, regrettibly in a way that you don't approve of, to have her say. Others here and presumably elsewhere have had their say in reply. The end.

"She is uneducated on the subject and proves that as she does this. "

Do you really think she just wanted to get on TV? Was it an attempt to blatently walk all over what americans have held important for how long?
Or was this a naieve girl thinking she could make a difference... I doubt her purpose was anything other than to avoid an unecessary war.
How many American lives is it worth to remove Saddam? How many American, British, Iraqi lives is it worth?
It wasn't worth any when Saddam was gassing Kurds, or Iranian troops. It wasn't worth any when the US state department incited the Kurds and the Marsh arabs to rise up and be slaughtered.

I am not saying what the US did was wrong... I can guess the reasons for doing what they did and in their position I'd have probably done the same (except inciting the uprisings in 1991... that was mean... but I guess unintentional in that they were going to help them).
What I am saying is with all the problems in the world, all the dictators in the world why him and why now?
If it wasn't worth US etc lives then why is it OK now?
What are the parents who receive the bodybags to be told?
He died for freedom?
A freedom that has been worth nothing for 15-20 years?

[Ratamacue]

I never called you anti-American. If you interpreted it that way, that's my mistake.

[warchild1/27scout]

freedom of speech my ass.this is a snot nosed punk who needs the **** beat out of her.id smack that little commie hoe.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Just on a side not about our flag. After September 11th, American flags were everywhere, on cars, t-shirts, hanging outside of houses and stores. Why did we have this show of patriotism? We displayed those flags not b/c we were supporting our government or for everyone's love of President Bush or b/c we support the politician's in their reaction to the attacks. We displayed those flags as a show of our loyalty, pride, and love for our country. Ms. Smith's protest is misdirected, she has pointed her
focus on the wrong target.

[Ratamacue]

Shut up, warchild.

[redondomarine]

LOL...Easy there warchild. Yes we would all love to burn everyone who shows hate torwards our country, but if you are in or ever plan on joining the military, your purpose is to protect those rights that she is using, no matter how much she deserves it.

[Trigger]

A girl did something you should be proud of

HA! That's like saying we're proud that Clinton banged Monica in the Oval Office and didn't stain the carpet!

Get real. :roll:

[hood]

One of Clinton's security people or advisors is coming out with a book about details of such events. They include the fact that Clinton lost the nuclear launch codes several times, 2 times when he was with Lewinsky.

"What I am saying is with all the problems in the world, all the dictators in the world why him and why now?"

If we don't continue to take a very tough stance towards middle eastern countries that dealing with terrorists in any way will bring about your destruction, it will keep going and going. One of the reason for terrorism, is because they blame the US for their problems. If we can influence these countries to make themselves better so that they'll have better things to think about, and raise their standard of living, the reasons for terrorism will go away. Everybody wins in the long term.

[TacoDelRio]

I think she should be ashamed of herself. Many men and women died or lost their ability to fully function for that flag, and for her. She doesnt deserve to live here.

Hooah! p-)

[GazB]

"If we don't continue to take a very tough stance towards middle eastern countries that dealing with terrorists in any way will bring about your destruction, it will keep going and going. "

So why go about dealing with terrorism by attacking one of the few countries in the region that doesn't support international terrorism?

Saddam has about as much love for Osama as Reagan did for Stalin. They couldn't live in the same swimming pool.

If you want to get to the root of the terrorist problem, bomb Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. They both have obvious links... the Saudis payed OBL not to do anything in SA, and OBL and 70% of the ****heads that hijacked the planes used in 11/9 were saudi nationals... all that money with all that poverty in Arab countries... that sort of guilt directed at the US is what caused 11/9. The Pakistanis created the Taleban and OBL is probably still on the border with Pakistan and Afghanistan... you invaded Afghanistan for less.

"If we can influence these countries to make themselves better so that they'll have better things to think about, and raise their standard of living, the reasons for terrorism will go away. Everybody wins in the long term."

Do you really think such ingrained corruption will go away anytime soon, let alone after bombing Bagdad? Especially when the West has encouraged such practises for so long... the more they bicker the less likely they will get together and realise that they could control the price of oil.

"HA! That's like saying we're proud that Clinton banged Monica in the Oval Office and didn't stain the carpet! "

Yes, I can see how exercising your right to freedom of speech and commiting adultery could be confusing, but let me spell it out... your forefathers didn't fight and bleed and die so that the next generation american could cry and bitch when someone turns their back on a piece of cloth... they did it so that someone who had an opinion that might not even be popular could stand up and say it out loud and not get exiled or sent to prison... if you want to get offended... get offended at those who think they or anyone else can take Toni Smiths rights away because of anything she does.

The US Constitution doesn't GIVE you rights. It merely spells out the rights everyone has. By suggesting she should lose those rights not only are you showing your ignorance of your own constitution (If you believe in the constitution... no one can lose their rights or have them take away) but you are also acting against everything your ancestors fought and bled and died for.

[Trigger]

but let me spell it out... your forefathers didn't fight and bleed and die so that the next generation american could cry and bitch when someone turns their back on a piece of cloth...

Our forefathers fought and bled and died for the right to determine their own future, and to escape tyranny among other things. They also fought from the 'moral high ground' which is what we're doing in Iraq. We're going to fight because it's the right thing to do. We should have done it ten years ago, but hindsight is 20/20 so don't start whining about the Marsh Arabs etc. We're doing it now.
What's keeping you from understanding why Toni Smith is wrong is you fail to understand the motives of the men who have fought to preserve it and make it more than a simple piece of cloth. Your circular arguments and belief that she is somehow making some kind of intelligent statement prove that. But that's OK, keep defending her. Her right to be an idiot is well protected by our constitution.

[96B]

I may have misread his statement earlier, but I think GazB also said that Americans are followers... I must have been living under a rock because I thought we were the world leader? Care to elaborate on this?

[redondomarine]

How can you sit there and say we dont know what our forefathers were fighting for? Dont you realize with as young as the US is, any american who wants to take the time can trace their familly back to the point where we entered this country. My dad has traced my family back to the revolution. Im not sure if what role my family played there becuase he is still looking. But our fore father are more than just people in our history books. The men who fought for our independance were actually our anestors.

I agree with Semper-Fi, NATO and the UN(AKA us) have been leading the world for years. What countries helped pull Europe of of debris in WWII. We even saved the french twice, and propped up their curency. How are we repaid... look at the way the french treat americans. The marshall plan and the truman policy both spent billions on nations, some of which curse the americans. THe way I see it, untill you have a country that has done as much as the US dont start talking about how we dont give our people rights. Right now I have friends either in Iraq or getting ready to go in, to give rights to an oppressed people. We never said she shouldn't have her rights. We said she was wrong to say what she did. I could go and call the president some colorful names in the midle of church and still be within my rights, but that doesn't mean it is the moral thing to do.