KSK training with American/British SpecialOp units in Kuwait

[Kitsune]

This is an article, from this wednesdays "Die Welt", a german newspaper.

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/02/26/45686.html?s=1

Google said it means something like this in english (careful...reading this can cause serious brain damage) :

Secret training in the Kuwaiti desert: Well a dozen of elite soldiers of the command of special forces (KSK) of the German Federal Armed Forces trained the emergency until few weeks ago with their just as well through-trained comrades of the Special air service (SAS) from Great Britain and the American Seals. Their order called itself "Combat search and Rescue" and consisted of finding and saving shot pilots. This scenario is quite realistic for the American troops at the border to the Iraq, because with the penetration of the grounding zones in the Iraq, one-dated by the United Nations, allied combat aircraft came already frequently under Iraqi fire. Also the KSK trains regularly the rescue of shot pilots behind hostile lines and the release from hostages. The Americans and British have already over 200,000 soldiers in the region. In the meantime also hundreds of helicopters and combat aircraft at the gulf arrived. Of it alone 72 fighter planes are also on board the aircraft carrier "USS Constellation", which crosses before Kuwait in Persian Gulf. Two helicopters of the type Seahawk major Jack Schuller commands on board the aircraft carrier "USS Constellation" in Persian Gulf. It is responsible for it that the fliers function technically, and is besides also a testflier. Its unit calls itself "Helicopter anti- submarine Squadron" or also simply only "golden Falcons". To the 200 strong unit also some combat diver belong to men. In the month a team flies several marks on the Kuwaiti mainland to training. Major Schuller is full of admiration for the command of special forces of the German Federal Armed Forces: "the Germans are really well trained." And then he grins: "only the American Seals are better." To the proof he points a completely particularly interesting picture in its close two-man cab: In the midst of the far desert in the north of Kuwait, which is since in the middle of February military prohibited area, a good dozen of soldiers in black uniform before a helicopter posing somewhere. "those are the German KSK men." He speaks open-hearted about the order. Silence however comes from Berlin on the request of the WORLD to the KSK maneuver from the Ministry of Defense: "we do not express ourselves to an employment of the special forces." While the British and American prepared already at that time gradually for the case of war, the German elite soldiers should gain experience in handling such search actions in the desert with their colleagues obviously only. Above all their knowledge in the area of field communications should be extended, the remaining tool such as a roping from the helicopter brought it already also. And further the mandate of the Germans does not to go. Why is such an exercise kept secret, if it is so harmless? Only by coincidence also an employment was guessed/advised in November 2001 to the public, when KSK soldiers trained together with the British in the Omani south province Dhofar. They however already prepared in the past in the USA for desert employments. The German Federal Armed Forces stationed Enduring Freedom "in the context of the operation" according to Bundestag mandate up to 100 KSK soldiers, who are resident in the Calw of Baden-Wuerttemberg, in Afghanistan. Still few weeks ago upon a departure of the command one had speculated. In the meantime the situation in Afghanistan changed. According to data of Secretary of Defense Peter Struck the KSK soldiers are still the only special forces of the anti-terror alliance in the country, after the USA took off and probably to Kuwait shifted its Special Forces. Since that time the Germans are to have been complicated into fights with terrorists. Also these data are not commentated in Berlin. Military experts asked by the WORLD in Berlin puzzle about the KSK maneuver in Kuwait. It will represent the point of view that the participation in a maneuver can be legally, but on the other hand pointed out that it concerns with Kuwait a highly endangered crisis area. Even by a maneuver harmless from the origin German soldiers could be pulled in into a war.

p-)

[David]

can you put that into like one sentence so i don't have to read all that? i'm really lazy. thanks.

[Kitsune]

Well, that would be damn long sentence, david :roll:

[hood]

Basically says that the ksk are training with british and US forces in kuwait for various operations including search and rescue of downed pilots in the desert. It's secret so far, but ultimately under the Enduring Freedom cover. They're probably not saying too much about it considering how much Schroeder is against war in Iraq.

[Silverado]

Perhaps the German government is about to do a backflip at the eleventh hour and tacitly support military action against Iraq. Predeploying a detachment of KSK soldiers would allow the German government to be able to make a military contribution at short notice that would not be a logistical nightmare to say nothing of a financial strain on a government that is burdened with a crippling recession.

[hood]

I seriously doubt it... they're probably just using the training facilities in kuwait since everyone else is doing it... Germany has said that unlike France, they will NEVER change their mind on this no matter what. Saddam could launch nerve gas filled cows into Berlin and they'd still do nothing. The chancelor won the recent election specifically on the basis that he was opposed to a conflict in Iraq.

[Kitsune]

To set some matters straight:
1) In the text the phrase "command of special forces" is the google translation of "Kommando Spezialkräfte" (KSK)

2)The "Crippling Recession": Well there is still no recession right now... but Germany is on the verge on one. And the Government is heavily indebted. After the last gulf war the allies of the U.S. and Britain paid no less than 90% of the warcosts (mainly Japan, Germany and Saudi Arabia). Germany had additionally to bear the costs of Reunification: roads, railways, the commmunications-systems... everything had to be rebuild...leading to huge indebtment. There are now more than 4 million unemployed in Germany. Schröders political future depends on making succesful reforms and reducing unemployment. "Deficit-spending" is not an option, because of the already high debts. So Schröder does not want for Germany to pay for another gulf war.

3) Hood is right about his doubts. This is only KSK training and there are no plans so far to use KSK to save downed U.S. or British pilots... they are just using the Kuwait training grounds. I would not be surprised if most KSK operators would like to fight on the side of America/Britain... but they have to follow orders.

4) Hood's niveau-lowering remark about the cows...
Literally Schröder said that he will "never support a U.N. resolution that legitimizes war". If Iraq attacks Germany or another NATO nation (with or without cows) that would be another matter.

5) The election: Just befor the federal election Schröders social-democrat/green coalition was behind the oppositon by 2 or 3 %. Schröders populist anti-war attitude brought him additional voters (mainly women...housewives and mothers). In the end it was a very tight race...similar to Bush and Gore. Schröder made it by a few thousand votes.

[hood]

:) Using a French word to attack my cow comment. Apparently you haven't seen the Holy Grail with the French cow catapulters to know that they started it. At least according to Monty Python. The part that I don't understand about your comments above is, why do the Germans care if we go to war concerning their cost? Just don't send German troops so there won't be any cost to them. They can still vote to side with letting the other countries do what they want. Unless of course Germany is more interested in getting all that money that Iraq owes them that probably won't get paid if the current leaders get dead. On a positive note, I thought it was a good thing that they voted for NATO's sending additional defense capabilities to Turkey.

[Kitsune]

Yeah I have seen that Mounty Python movie... I remember...lol, ok now I know from where you got that one.

The other things you mentioned. Yeah well inernational politics is quite complicated. There are a lot of different interests and hidden agendas at work, things that are not mentioned... the diplomatic stuff... the declarations of presidents, chancelors, ministers... that is only facade, not more.

(Just an introduction of sorts...)

Ahem...

Iraq is not indebted to Germany as far I know. That is no problem.
The other one... just do not pay if you do not want to... well... LOL.
You seem to underestimate your own american leadership Hood. They know for sure that a war is a costly undertaking... and the more others pay for it the better. Nations have their interests... the U.S.A. are no exception. In Gulf War I Germany, Japan, Saudi Arabia among others declared support. The U.S. said: "OK we did the fighting...as far as your support is concerned... you can do the paying!" 90%! (There is even a saying how this partnership works "The U.S. fights, the E.U. funds."). And after the war? Well, in Post-War Kuwait you can't even sell a doorhandle if you are not an american company. Very profitable.
I think its is no coincidence that the nations with Iraq-oil connected treaties (France, Russia, China...not Germany) are against the war (Germany may tend to pacifism, France does not. The French never had a problem with killing someone if their interests are at stake. And Russia and China...pacifists? LOL).
The Oil of Iraq may not be the main reason why the U.S.A. want to get rid of Saddam... still they will not forget to come to an profitable agreement with the successor regime. "Business is war" the Japanese say...


Why does America want the support of foreign nations? Militarily they do not need it. But the word "support" usually means that you contribute something. Now what could that be?

1) They do not want to be alone for "cosmetic" reasons. It simply looks better if a "great alliance" is conducting a war and not the U.S. alone. Now for Kameroon or New Guinea that may be enough... but for so rich and developed a country like Germany? Surely Germany can do better...

2) They need bases and fly through zones. In case of Germany the Americans already have that. "Surely this can'be everything your doing?"

3) Occupation forces. What will be after the war? Troops will still needed to occupy the country. This is quite costly. And while it is not as heroic as fighting... it still can be dangerous. If a partisan war breaks out one is in a Vietnam-like situation. DIRTY work. Why should the U.S. troops do it, if there is somone else who can do it? Hood... just look to Afghanistan. That is exactly how the U.S. government would love to do it in Iraq. European forces doing the peacekeeping work... while the Americans go on to do their next heroic deeds. (The whole Afghanistan thing does not look good right now... the country is a giant bear trap and the ISAF boys are sitting in it. The Americans have promised air support and air transport to evac ISAF if it turns ugly, but that was more than a year ago...it seems they have withdrawn virtually everything right now. Special Forces? Gone... as are the British ones it seems. Only some KSK guys are left. If you think the american/european reltionship is cold right now just wait... If it things go badly and Afghanistan starts boiling in the wake of an U.S. attack on Iraq... and if a lot of ISAF troopers are killed and the americans are not true to their promises of air support/evac... then it will start an american/european ice age.)

4) Money. "So you do not want to send forces... not even to do that harmless occupation work? We are deeply disappointed... *Sigh* We really expected more of our german partners... After all we have done for you...*SIGH*...But you still can contribute... just produce your wallet..."

Similar strory if the U.N. backs a resolution to attack Iraq. Even if Germany voted against it... "Q: You germans believe in the UNO? A: Yes we do! Q: Well if that is true... don't you think that it is your duty to contribute something? It's the United Nations who ordered this war, after all... Now that is really a nice big wallet you got there..."


Now I will probably be called "anti-americanistic" again. I am not. I am just realistic (well I try to).
There are those who seem to believe that America (military and intelligence agencies) is just doing all this stuff all over the world to help somebody else. And that I do not believe. Sorry. Government are made out of policitans. Even the US one. Politicans are professional liers... they have to be... even american ones.
For the american government the US always comes first. Especially now with the Bush administration. The burdens of life are to be shared with your partners as much as possible, whereas control is shared as less as possible...if at all.
The only way to stay out of this is to say "no" from the start.

[BiZ]

For anyone who cares, the Australian SASR had training teams over there with US teams back in February 2002. Training the Kuwaiti SF guys in CQB and MOUT tactics etc.

UK SAS and German KSK came in later once the fun stuff had been set up. :D

[Chops]

Yeah BiZ, saw that one on SMH the other day.

Rgds

Chops

[Silverado]

BiZ, any ideas as to how many were deployed to Kuwait in Feb 02? As I understand it 1sqn were operating in Afgahinistan at the time. The first changover in Afghanistan took place round early April. Just wondering if they were deploying out of Kuwait to Afgahinistan in order to kill to birds with one stone to get the guys tuned in so to speak, with the Kuwait/Iraq A.O. . No doubt they would have been aware by that time that they were going to be sent into Iraq.

[BiZ]

Just wondering if they were deploying out of Kuwait to Afgahinistan in order to kill to birds with one stone to get the guys tuned in so to speak, with the Kuwait/Iraq A.O. . No doubt they would have been aware by that time that they were going to be sent into Iraq.

I'm lucky to have so much free time at the moment to be able to cruise these forums and photo albums, all of which I found completely by accident one day. :D

Anyway, 1-Sqd deployed for Afghanistan out of Kuwait initially as it was anyway, but there was a specific training team detached from 1-Sqd for the Kuwaiti SF training role.
From memory it numbered only 15 or so, similar in size to training teams deployed else where over the years.
Basically a "skills" assesment and upgrade along with smakll unit tactics and basic CBQ drills etc. Obviously a bit of "interoperatability" training went on too with the teams that were there.

As for deployment, all I'll say is that 4RAR(Cdo) knew of their deployment well before Christmas, 5th Aviation were pencilled in at that stage but not officially notified untill much later, and pretty much a similar story with the IRR. As for SASR, the rumours (wishful thinking?) started as long as the last time a few boys went to the Gulf, but don't tell anybody! ;)

[Shadow]

Germany supports the war already.
Bombs over the Iraq. More than 9000 already threw American airplanes off over the desert state. The consequences are devastating. More than hundred civilians were killed - alone in Bagdad. A F15-Kampfflugzeug on the way back of the its war employment. Without German high technology this airplane could not steer its deadly weapons in the goal. German infrared sensors underneath the trunk seize the combat goals for the precision rockets. Precision rockets, which destroy houses and kill humans. The feared combat helicopter Apache. Also with it developed modules of the infrared detectors guarantee the aiming accuracy of its rockets in Germany. Thus the helicopter can also at night locate and hit targets exactly under worst visibilities its. Dr. Michael Brzoska, Institut for conversion research, Bonn: "for the moment the Americans could not in such a way lead the war in the Iraq, lead like them him, without German high technology. In a whole set of American weapon systems is German precision technology. That is not amazing also, because the German armaments industry is quite in some high technology ranges world-wide leading, and therefore also the Americans depend on the fact that they get such supplies from Germany." Also conventional German military equipment is in American weapon systems. Example: the battle tank Abrams. The usually used American tank in the Iraq war, which became 120 mm of plain ended pipe cannon and the deadly ammunition due to it in Germany developed. Tanks, which stand briefly today before Bagdad. Only some examples of many: German military technology is in nearly all branches of service: * Submachine gun MP5 * pistol MK23 * smoke and shining ammunition * nearly Attack Vehicle * feeling tanks * armoring Stryker * folding swimming fixed bridge telex B2 * guided missiles of weapon systems * Wolverine Bridge system diagram: Approved arms transport; Right one: WDR television 2003 actual the United States became in the past years the most important customer of the German armaments industry. Thus the authorized exports rose into the USA since 1996 steeply - on armament exports approved over 1 billion Mark, and they continue. But, which was up to now completely legal, is illegal since war beginning after German right. Since the USA began a war of aggression contrary to international law, the situation changed completely, since prominent lawyers are united. Professor Volker Epping, constitutionalist University of Hanover: "the Federal Government may approve at present no armament exports into the USA, because the USA lead at present a war of aggression, a war of aggression contrary to international law, our German standards are there very clear: German weapons may with a war of aggression no use find, may not thus also be exported." Reporterin: "is there any scope of action or interpretation for the Federal Government there?" Professor Volker Epping: "no, the German standards, in particular those of the war weapon control law, are very clear. It looks even in such a way that given permission in these cases is to be even recalled." It is called literal in the war weapon control law that the Basic Law concretizes, completely unmistakably: "permission is to be malfunctioned, if the danger exists that the war weapons are used with a peace-disturbing action, in particular with a war of aggression." For the permission of armament exports the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs is responsible. The Federal Government refuses each statement to an export stop, and not even that wants to give it in writing. Only the defense policy speaker of the SPD Bundestag faction places itself to the camera. Reporter: "wouldn't the armament exports have to be stopped toward the USA?" Rainer Arnold, defense policy speaker, SPD Bundestag faction: "the United States are friendly, are a partnership country. And one must say to friends already also times clearly, what correct and wrong it is from our view. But one is also clear: If friendship is existing to remain, then one may vacate them not still additionally stones into the way." Reporter: "however that is not a hypocritical position, on the one hand no to the war, on the other hand one we supply the weapons?" Rainer Arnold: "Moralisierend to be right, is sufficient for me not in the policy, but somewhat to cause is it, what humans of us expect." Professor Volker Epping, constitutionalist, University of Hanover: "probable does not want to smash the Federal Government new porcelain in the relations between Germany and the USA, this is politically quite understandably, legally meanwhile completely irrelevant. The German laws are clear. In all other respects the German laws can be used not after political Opportunitaet." An export stop is not to be expected, also for strong economic reasons. There are numerous arms co-operation in three-figure million height. * Air defense system RAM Block1 * storm rifle XM 29 * data exchange system MIDS * military flight simulation * precision ammunition XM 395 * components by motor landing crafts Professor Hans Hans-Joachim casting man, politics scientist University of Hamburg: "if the Federal Government these exports does not stop or to the mindesten for the duration of the war suspends, sets themselves it now into moral joint responsibility for the execution of this war, and it would hurt also the legal bases, which regulate the armament export of the Federal Republic, in the rest of." Differently than the red-green Federal Government Swiss already pulled to consequences. Here in Berne is itself the government united. Othmar Wyss, undersecretary of state Swiss Ministry of Economic Affairs: "because there is in contrast to the Gulf War in the Iraq war no UN mandate now, has the Upper House of Parliament decided to limit the war material exports. National enterprises may not export at all war material into the countries, which with material and troops are involved in this conflict. Regarding private enterprises the Upper House of Parliament is not less strict, these may any more export, if the appropriate material is used directly or indirectly for the conflict." Of it Germany is far. With us the foreign exchange obviously applies: We are against the war, but the weapon supplies continue. Sonia Mikich: "oh, that was probably again the red-green custom: ' it applies the broken word ', because: ' no German war participation ' is called in the plain language: Further feeling tanks in Kuwait, Awacs employment in Turkey, overflight/flyover rights in Germany and now: Further weapons into the USA. Clear a violation of the constitution and on the right of."

http://www.antikriegsforum-heidelberg.de/irakkrieg2/hintergrund/03a02grafik_ruestungsexport.jpg