Seven Dead in Chicago Warehouse Shooting

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030827/ap_on_re_us/warehouse_shooting_21


By BENNIE M. CURRIE, Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO - A gunman on the verge of losing his job opened fire at an auto parts warehouse Wednesday, killing six people, authorities said. The attacker also was killed, hospital officials said.



A spokesperson for the Cook County Medical Examiner's Office who spoke only on condition of anonymity, confirmed that seven people had died.


Authorities got a call at about 8:45 a.m. that a person had been shot — possibly by a co-worker at the Windy City Core Supply Inc., police spokesman Pat Camden said. He said police fired shots as they entered the South Side building.


All buildings within a block of the auto parts and supply store were evacuated.


"A disgruntled employee who had either been terminated or was going to be terminated returned to the business, and that's where the shooting took place," Camden said.


The gunman and another man involved in the shooting were ****ounced dead at John H. Stroger Hospital, Stroger spokesman Tony Ewell said.


A man who had been shot at the business was dead on arrival at Mercy Hospital and Medical Center, said Connie Murphy, a hospital spokeswoman.


Camden said police and the man exchanged gunfire inside and outside the building. Police tried to negotiate with the man but he refused, Camden said.


Al Martinez, owner of a business about a half block from the shooting scene, said he was at work when he heard the sound of gunfire.


"We saw a guy shooting at police officers outside the building and saw people running around like crazy," said Martinez, who owns Midway Pallets. "We came and saw all the cops running, hiding behind cars."







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[Smintjes]

Long live the right to keep and bear arms! :cantbeli:

[budanski]

Thank GOD, for Gun Control....otherwise people may get hurt.
Now, if he'd just outlaw murder, we'd have that utopia they strive for.

BEHOLD! THE MIND OF THE DEFENSELESS

[JiJoMacLE45]

Cops don't hide, we just take cover.

[martinexsquaddie]

how about ammo control :(
lunatics with guns zero instances since handguns taken away in the UK
illegal criminal use of guns still soaring

[budanski]

Unarmed people are easier to control and people who can be made into retroactive criminals can be controlled through the threat of arrest.

The Romans practiced "sword control" to dominate the areas that they conquered and the Mongolians practiced "knife control" to subdue the conquered populace.

The crux of the matter is control. The government does not trust its citizenry and therefore pursues legislation that reaches into our private homes. For a socialist to criticize on Americas freedom, America's right to bear arms is quite convenient.

[FallenAngel]

well, if the coworkers were packing too...then the death toll could have stopped at two or three.... ;)

[FallenAngel]

well, if the coworkers were packing too...then the death toll could have stopped at two or three.... ;)

[He219]

Something to think about...


"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. "


"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. "


"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because
of gun control: 56 million.

[XASA]

New York City and Washington, DC have the stiffest gun control laws in the country; yet, they've ranked among the highest in murders.

Vermont's concealed carry law allows any citizen to be "strapped" without a license, and it has one of the lowest murder rates.

Switzerland allows its reserves to keep their SIG assualt rifles in their homes and its murder rate is infiitesimal.

Why do certain members of this forum turn every post they participate in into an argument against U.S. policy, customs and lifestyle?

If America is so bad, why are there tens of thousands of Asians, Hispanics, Africans and, dare I say it, Europeans who want to emigrate to this great country?

[Haiw]

u'r exaggerating, cus not all of those 56 million people wud have had weapons when guns weren't controlled...

some more statistics...

people saved by gun regulations all over the world: countless...

[Smintjes]

Correction: "Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century, UNDER A DICTATORSHIP, because of gun control: 56 million".

I'm no socialist, but I do believe in the fact that the Second Amandment is hopelessly outdated and doesn't apply in these times anymore. Especially not in a democracy.

And please don't start with arguments like "yeah, but the RKBA is the best defense against tyranny". Because that's just bollocks. IMHO offcourse.

[Smintjes]

New York City and Washington, DC have the stiffest gun control laws in the country; yet, they've ranked among the highest in murders.

Vermont's concealed carry law allows any citizen to be "strapped" without a license, and it has one of the lowest murder rates.

Do the math.

Mmm, I'd include the huge demographical and social differences between DC, NY on the one hand and Vermont on the other.

[JiJoMacLE45]

I'll say it till I'm blue in the face. The NRA(of which I am a member) and the anti-gun left are so friggin set in their ways that they will never compromise. Come on, do you really need a 105mm recoiless rifle for home defense. On the other hand, why shouldn't a law abiding, responsible citizen be allowed to carry a handgun for the protection of their person, family, and property. It's not Mr. Smith down the corner who keeps a registered snub nose .357 in the night stand drawer for protection purposes and a 12 gauge pump in a locker in the basement for duck season who are committing gun violence. If you take the legally registered guns away, you're still leaving 90% of the firearms used in violent crimes out there in the hands of the criminals. It is those illegal firearms that are used in crimes, those are the ones that need to be taken away.

[budanski]

Simply put, guns and the right to own them is the key ingredient in a free society. If Americans are allowed to own and carry guns then they can feed themselves and defend themselves. In other words, gun-owning Americans are less dependent on government than socialists prefer.

martinexsquaddie pointed this out. In England, gun rights have pretty much ceased to exist, and -- predictably -- violent crime has risen. The rate of “hot” burglaries -- burglaries where the residents are home -- is much higher than in America. Why? Well, as studies have shown, criminals do not know whether or not Americans are armed. They tend, therefore, to avoid invading homes where the resident is at home. England, with its gun control laws, has removed that fear from criminals.

[He219]

Hey there, I was quoting some lines I saw. Relax!

There were a couple of good points though. Arizona also has 'concealed carry provisions' for a very largely populated region has one of the lowest crime as well as gun related crime rate around.

So if it is illegal in new york to have a gun, it certainly has not stopped the volume of gun related crimes.

I would start with the mass media recklessly promoting the unlawful use of guns through televison and hollywood movies before I would criticize the means...

It's all statistics anway. Remember that there are 300 million people in the United States!

[Smintjes]

Simply put, guns and the right to own them is the key ingredient in a free society.

You just made me laugh out loud.

And for the burglars? I have very good locks (a lot of 'em, I admit), and I feel safe. We haven't had any burglars since I've installed them. Before that, they have broken three times into our home, but we weren't home. What did they take, among other things? My airsoft collection (I was 16 at the time). Should that have been real guns, We would have five freshly new illegal guns in the underground.

[Smintjes]

Hey there, I was quoting some lines I saw. Relax!

I wasn't shouting or anything, I just love a good discussion. Which this excellent board provides a lot of! :P

[He219]

If this free society had not protected your backsides, you would'nt be here criticizing US.

[budanski]

Or at least put up a fight when the Germans rolled through

[Smintjes]

I'm not criticizing YOU, the Americans, as persons or as country, I'm just saying that in my opinion, The RKBA is obsolete in our times.

We in Belgium have one of the most leeway gun laws in Europe, if not THE. Still, there are a lot of regulations and it isn't easy anymore to obtain a weapon. This I find a good compromise. I'm not saying that everybody should turn in their legally purchased weapons, I just think it would be a good idea to review the Second Amendment, or at least consider it.

I'm not going hostile here or something.

[martinexsquaddie]

Er Hang on.
Handguns before the ban were not widespread and could not be owned for self defense reasons ok. SO THAT KILLS THAT ARGUMENT OK.
The rise in gun crime has nothing to do with the access to legal firearms.
I have no real problem with some one owning a 105mm rr its not likely there going to go on the rampage with it. its the pissed off co worker with the cheap 9mm or whatever.
the level of violence in american cities is quite scary. My brother worked as an Er nurse for awhile in New orleans a lot of his fellow nurses carried handguns For self protection not little .38s Colt Gold cup .45s. Gunshot wounds were just part of a normal working day there.
In portsmouth England unofficaly the toughest town in the Uk gunshot wounds are very rare that maybe because the inhabitants of pompey hav'nt really evolved enough to used edged weapons yet but access to firearms is restricted. Also iraq had plentiful supplu of guns niether stopped a tryant killing whoever he liked or the Coalition invading either.

[XASA]

Any discussion on gun control will, without fail, always start an argument. Those against gun control and those who are for gun control will not be convinced to change their viewpoint by reading our remarks in this forum, so let the flame wars begin :backhand:

[duck]

In Iraq the current Coalition policy is one AK for each family, machine-guns, mortars and explosives get you into trouble. Could this be a good guideline if it works in Iraq? Or should at least all the men in the family have their own assault rifles for self protection?

[He219]

Also iraq had plentiful supplu of guns niether stopped a tryant killing whoever he liked or the Coalition invading either.

From what I recall, it was only with the threat of invasion that Saddam actually distributed weapons throughout the general population. After the rout, loads of weapons were left unsecured in military bases, depots, other hiding places, mosques, schools etc.

Besides, Saddam had his Security Services and WMD to use against any internal threat.....

martin: New Orleans has possibly the worst crime rate in the United States.

[Kriz]

Just watch Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" if you wanna know what causes so many gun related murders in the USA.

And Smintjes I'm happy that we have such strict gun laws.

In a democracy there is no need for weapons or arms in general. In a democracy people should go and vote if they wanna change the system and shouldn't use weapons to achieve something. If they do have to use arms to get somewhere then you ain't living in a democracy.

[FallenAngel]

Just watch Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" if you wanna know what causes so many gun related murders in the USA.


You can't be f***ing serious? Moore is so far left he makes liberals like Rosie O'donald look bad. :cantbeli: She's a hypocrit. She is for every gun law there can be, but yet her bodygaurds MUST carry a firearm to protect her- it's in their contract. Sure...she can have guns for protection, but the rest of us should use sticks and stones for self defense. Also...the president for Handgun Control International (I am pretty sure that's the name of it) has a CCW permit. Idiots. :fork:

The reason why there's so many gun related murders where I live (Los Angeles) comes down to two main reasons. Drugs and Gangs. 90% of the guns THEY use are either stolen or smuggled in on the black market. Legally owned firearms are hardly used in crimes, however they are used alot in self-defense.

As for gun related accidents...they are a FAR cry from how many people die in car accidents every year. Maybe we should outlaw cars too eh? Make everyone ride a bike? Or even sports. LOTS of people die in sports-related accidents. Maybe we should outlaw them too?

[Seiyuuki]

It's no so much as people arming themselves to effect change as protecting themselves from the a government with military control. As that was the line of thinking back then, it was also to strike a balance between the federal and state's government, plus not all of the thirteen original colonies would sign the Constitution unless all ten Amendments (including the Amendment for rights to bear arm) were there.

Back to the present...I plan on becoming a member of the NRA and I want to legally own a gun or maybe a rifle here and there someday, but I'm all for compromise. I'm no expert in this area, but I would think with the technology today, one does not have to rely on firearm for personal protection, there are many available options out there that can do the job just as effective or better.

As for the original intent of the 2nd Amendment in protecting the populace from the power that be...the Iraq thing make sense, an assault rifle or something per family. Also, the governor can command the National Guard so we don't have to worry much about that.

[Chet Mystery]

we should also go the safe route and outlaw things like eating as obesity kills, walking cause you could trip and fall to your demise, and vison, as if I read anymore of the dribble on this tread, i'm likely to pop a blood vessel :cantbeli:

[budanski]

...they are a FAR cry from how many people die in car accidents every year. Maybe we should outlaw cars too eh? Make everyone ride a bike? Or even sports. LOTS of people die in sports-related accidents. Maybe we should outlaw them too?

Don't speak too soon, the loony left are getting there (http://www.ksat.com/automotive/2200044/detail.html)

[He219]

First ban men wearing skirts and women who can't fit into their shorts....

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030826/capt.sge.tqy95.260803153654.photo00.default-380x281.jpg

[usa320]

people saved by gun regulations all over the world: countless...

People saved by lack of gun ban: countless as well.

Gun or no gun, criminals will find a way to commit their crimes.

[Ichhabe]

Or at least put up a fight when the Germans rolled through

Yeah!!! Not every country in the world has a friggin Atlantic ocean and the Pacifics to protect them from bad neighbours.

Just out of share evilness from my side it was a cryin shame that the Russians sold Alaska to the USA. Damn it would have been cool during the cold war to have had 90 Infantry Divisions just outside your backyard.

[Seiyuuki]

Or at least put up a fight when the Germans rolled through

Yeah!!! Not every country in the world has a friggin Atlantic ocean and the Pacifics to protect them from bad neighbours.

Just out of share evilness from my side it was a cryin shame that the Russians sold Alaska to the USA. Damn it would have been cool during the cold war to have had 90 Infantry Divisions just outside your backyard.

But we have good neighbour in Canada. Or you can be their banker, that seem to work well for the Swiss.

[Kriz]

Well to be honest I don't really care with your guns or not, in the end it's still your country and you constitution :) but here in Belgium I, personally, feel alot safer knowing that there aren't many guns to go round by and I also hope it stays that way.

I feel almost completely safe in my house and I wouldn't want to need a gun to defend myself.

On the other hand if you wanna buy guns fine by me ;) and if you do so please buy some belgian weapons like P90 orso, good for our economy.

[Seiyuuki]

I wouldn't mind having a P-90.

[He219]

Just out of share evilness from my side it was a cryin shame that the Russians sold Alaska to the USA. Damn it would have been cool during the cold war to have had 90 Infantry Divisions just outside your backyard.


Your'e getting all excited again, Ichhabe! Seward's aquisition of Alaska for pennies an acre was called a 'folloy' at the time and received great criticism. Along with all it's natural wonders, Alaska also represents our single largest Petroleum reserve within a small area known as ANWAR, to be used as soon as we suck the oil from everywhere else, hehe. That was for all you conspiracy theorists. Alaska is a wonderful place, ever been there?

Oh, as for the Soviet Horde breathing down our throats, I was there throughout the 70's and early 80's in Southern Germany along with countless numbers of US, Canadian and British Soldiers keeping watch.

Remember that in the United States, the South is familiar with the Scorched Earth policy of General Sherman during the Civil War. The States also faced threats by marauding Mexicans the likes of Pancho Villa or Indians, used with particular brutal effect by the French. Heck, we even had the British to deal with in the beginning. Now we have to deal wave after wave of asylum seekers and illegal aliens looking for opportunity, yet alone deal with your malicious taunting, hehehe...

p-)

[Ichhabe]

The Shermanation of Atlanta was in 1864.

The drunken hordes of Pancho Villa was in 1912.

You did your watch in as you stated yourself; Southern Germany.

If Europe had been taken by the Soviets, you still would have the option to retreat to the USA.

I probably would have been a Young Komsomol praising Lenin. :D

But thats all history... hehe.



Btw, Burry my heart at Wounded Knee.

[Fioraon]

Its more easy to buy an illegal gun then to buy one by the law anyways.

[mocking_loudly]

Oh Americans and their never-ending paranoia of everything to do with gun control.

"If they take my gun, those black helicopters will land and the evil government will put an alien mind control device up my butt".

Here in Australia we have massive gun control and its fantastic I don’t have to worry about some crazy redneck with his hunting Mac 10....

Just admit it, you don’t like gun control because posing in the mirror is only good when you have a fully loaded colt 1911.

Let me buy you a water pistol.

[Seiyuuki]

I'm surprise that nobody has said: "Gun don't kill people, people do," or something to that effect.

[Light Fighter]

As I legally carry a gun daily to work, I am biased to this whole argument, "guns are bad and only cause evil" "its my rite" etc. All I have to say is thats right, it is my rite to carry my firearm and any other firearms I purchase legally. And if anybody ever tried to take them, there would be people in the US that would put up a fight before they let them go. So rant and rave about how good gun control in (insert country here) is. I know I sleep better knowing that my .1911 is always close by.

[Shake n Bake]

Something to think about...


"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. "


"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. "


"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because
of gun control: 56 million.




''One of the first orders of business after taking power in 1959 was the confiscation of private firearms, a task made easier because of the previous gun registration by Batista's government.''

Cuba is now a totalitarian ****hole country with living conditions below Third World levels and a homicide rate that is higher then the United States.


Don't ever fall for the deception that complete gun control will make your country safe.

[mocking_loudly]

As I legally carry a gun daily to work, I am biased to this whole argument, "guns are bad and only cause evil" "its my rite" etc. All I have to say is thats right, it is my rite to carry my firearm and any other firearms I purchase legally. And if anybody ever tried to take them, there would be people in the US that would put up a fight before they let them go. So rant and rave about how good gun control in (insert country here) is. I know I sleep better knowing that my .1911 is always close by.

Im not ranting I just think you are delusional and now let me quote another favorite cliche "bloody yanks". rofl

Cheers.

[martinexsquaddie]

you can never have a sane conversation with a yank about guns or abortion. so don't try.
Serious shooters are not really a threat to anyone unless you get cornered by a handloader then your brain may implode from boredom and That was when I took shooting seriously :roll:
Its the demented and the careless you got to watch out fot heard some horror stories about drunk hunters not funny. And mongs who leave loaded unsecured handguns and children in the same house

[Herrmannek]

Its the demented and the careless you got to watch out fot heard some horror stories about drunk hunters not funny. And mongs who leave loaded unsecured handguns and children in the same house
Most children dies not from firearms but from unsecured solvents,clean agents,medicines and such, firearms are just another thing wich should be keept away from children. About drunks this is patology wich has nothing to do with guns, drunks use to kill drinkmates whatever they have near their arms(knifes,bottles,fists,clubs), and mainly kills bystanders by driving over with car.

But yes such crime probably would not happen in Poland where guns are not publically available. I also have question to you if the number of such crimes is groving lately or it is steady but news are more sensitive to them and if it is growing what provoke folks to do such things?

[GazB]

"I'm surprise that nobody has said: "Gun don't kill people, people do," or something to that effect."

Hehehehe... guns don't kill people... bullets do. :lol:

I think I am pretty well pigeonholed here as a lefty anti american loon.

I'd just like to say I fully support gun control... 100% in fact.

(My definition of gun control is being able to hit your target with your first shot... :D )

If you can trust an adult with 1 ton of steel that can be accelerated to 60mph in 10 seconds (ie a car) then I really don't see the problem with trusting that same adult with a device that accelerates a small peice of metal to very high speed.

[oldsoak]

I have no problem with a law abiding citizen legally owning a firearm of anykind - why ? - because he/she is a law abiding citizen. Law abiding citizens do not frighten or harm me, it is criminals that do. Unfortunately, the message that "its good to be law abiding" seems to be getting eroded in a good few places, and until a society gets a grip on itself and actively encourages the morals we'd like to see in each other, it will get worse. As far as I am aware, Americans have always had relatively easy access to firearms, but public massacres are relatively new. If one wants to be serious about stable and safe societies, we have to find out why this is the case. The UK had gun control laws and we still had Dunblane and Hungerford. The freedom of travel within the EU means that arms smuggling is easier than it ever was, so its a question of time before they have the same horror IMHO. So rather than argue about gun control, maybe everyone should get their heads together and ask the question of how we are going to stop increasing levels of violence. Just my 2p.
rgds

[GazB]

" but public massacres are relatively new. "

Public massacres are not new. The term "To run Amok" means to go around and kill indiscriminantly. The original work Amok comes from, I think a Malaysian word, and literally means to run around and kill people with a machette (ie big knife). Ask the Hutus and the Tutsis how safe everything was when few people had guns. 800,000 people hacked limb from limb.

Gun control is feel good politics. You think you are solving a problem, but really you are just taking away some freedoms from some people. Next we'll have a serious dog attack and someone will demand tighter and tighter rules on the ownership of dogs and then they will be banned too.
Cars are safe... urban people use cars. Most people I know who live in the city can't understand the use of guns as being normal... most probably wouldn't kow what their cars engine looks like either...

[Andyman]

If you also look at the stats boys the U.S has the highest murder rate in the industrial world. 11,200 people were murdered in the united States in 2001 and thats not including the WTC incident. They have the most rediculous gun control policies and the NRA rags the **** out of the Government when they want to create more laws cause of the second amendment that was created with the constitution and obviously during a time period when one would need a firearm to protect themselves and their family from animals not so much other people. But **** Americans kill each other at an alarming rate and if you guys just look north to yes Canada you would know that in 2001 554 Canadians were murdered. In Canada 34% of murders involved a firearm in the U.S around 65% of the murders involved a firearm so thats (11,200 * 0.64) = 7,168 people in 2001 were murdered by a firearm. in Canada (554 * 0.34) = 188 people in 2001 were murdered by a firearm. Have any of you guys watched that movie bowling for columbine. Personally I think that Weapons should be reserved primarily for the military. I mean mac 11's should not be used for hunting or any of that ****. If hunters wanna hunt then they should have to leave their gun at the rangers office and only take it out when they hunt and it should be left there. Think of all the children that blow their friends heads off cause they found "DADDY'S" colt 45 or some ****. The NRA sickens me and Charlton Heston should be shot :bash: :cantbeli: :slap: :backhand: :fork: :cantbeli:

[oldsoak]

If one wants to draw comparisons one could always pull out Switzerland and ask why its got the one of the lowest gun related crime despite the local militia keeping assault rifles at home. Canadas murder rate doesnt look good against that of Switzerlands. It does no good to quote gun control laws or lack thereof. The point is that one society has seemingly less of a problem with firearms than another - why ? What makes one society more "peaceful" than others ? And why do certain parts of a society have lower violent crime rates than others - it all needs looking at in a cold unemotive way with a clean sheet of paper. People can make improvised explosive devices - see Oklahoma - they dont have to use a gun, so lets get away from the gun fixation. Somehow we've got to stop the murderous intent, - now how are we going to do this ?
rgds

[Trigger]

Andyman, those stats are indeed sad, but it still stands that if guns were outlawed, there would still be a large criminal element that would never surrender them. Personally, I don't want to potentially be that defenseless.

Why should Charlton Heston be shot? For saying what he believes in? [sarcasm] what a brilliant statement. Are you one of those elites who hates violence except when it suits your needs?[sarcasm/]

[California Joe]

I build guns. Granted, the majority of them were considered "assault weapons" around the time of the Boston Tea Party, and take a minute or better to load between shots but that's what tomahawks are for. I'm from Vermont too and everyone I know owns guns but never shoot each other. At least they never did before they said gays could get married and ****. ;) Now it may change. I dunno. In a free society you'll always have chuckleheads, we call them "Flatlanders" that will end up shooting a cow, thinking it's a deer or a black lab, thinking it's a bear, or 50 cent, thinking he's talented or something.......

[Andyman]

Well I guess noone really deserves to be shot if your the peacefull put people in prison type. But yeah my statement was a bit over extended it should have said charleton heston should be slapped! Seriously watch that movie bowling for columbine when Micheal Moore shows heston the picture of the little girl who was killed in her kindergarten class by a boy who found his grand daddy's gun and decided to bring it to school. Coincidentally Charleton Heston is doing a pro gun rally in that girls town like a month later i mean thats bad timing and apparently according to the move he does that alot. Well anyways when Moore shows Heston the picture of the little girl Heston closes his mouth and walks away he doesnt even look at the picture for one second. That action to me shows that he is a coward and is only focused on his one goal. Sure criminal elements will still exist however if you take their guns away or their means of acquiring them eventually they will become routed out of society. Its easy to be ignorant to this issue and say oh it wont happen here or guns arent the only thing that kill people and blah blah blah. I showed the stats in my above post and 63% is a high number to me. Restriction of firearms will not end crime but it will severely hinder the homicide rate in the USA.

[hoganshero]

I live in Canada. I have to admit whether citizens are allowed to own guns or not seems irrelevant to me. I have a Girlfriend whom I love and plan to have children with. As such there will never be a gun in my home loaded or not.

I've noticed a few "mistakes" for lack of a better word (fallacies?) both sides of the argument are making.
The pro gun lobbyists are stating that when the government takes away guns no-one will have guns to defend themselves with. However in the same breathe they are stating that in states that have implemented gun control there is more gunplay. Which is it? Either gun control means more guns or less guns but not both.

However on the pro-control side there is a similar quoting of statitics that have had their context removed. It's great that people are quoting figures from countries with both gun control and those lacking it. It is fine to quote the murder rate in Canada but we need to ask are there cultural differences which come into play. Canada and Australia lack a culture of violence. Also how much is spent per gun owner on education. How much is spent on policing per capita. Does Canada have a higher per capita expenditure on police? If so perhaps the large # of police owned guns is what causes the lack of gun violence. What about penalties?

Apart from picking apart logical fallacies I have but one thing to add to this argument. If people keep handguns to keep from being killed by loonies and strangers why then according to the bureau of justice for the US are you most likely to be murdered by someone you know? I won't quote the statistics (the bureau of justice publishes it's report under the title "homicide trends in the US" look it up for yourself and decide what these particular stats show). I'm leery of statistics; generally they can be used to show whatever you like but I'm even more leery of lack of statistics.

[Andyman]

Well as a matter of fact all the information that i gave was quoted from the Bureau of Justice web site and the Canadian 2002 Almanac. Look Canada and the US big population difference, Both equally multicultural, Canada has millions of guns and the US has billions of guns. Technically the only difference is population and the amount of firearms floating around in society.

[Fargin]

I like Chris Rocks idea 5000$ a bullit.

[Andyman]

that was so funny man yet strangely true at the same time

[Beowulf]

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

It's an interview with the author of the book "More guns less crime". The book only deals with statistics in america. But the evidence is thorough and the book (I've read it) is done completely without rhetoric, it was slightly boring to read and filled with statistical analyses. Which to me indicates a more academic approach to the questions concerning gun control.

I spoke with an associate proffesor of political philosophy at my school concerning the book, anfd he seems to think it fairly definitive in its treatment of th egun control issues in america.

and Michael Moore is full of smelly poo
All Best
-b

[Deuterium]

To all of you non-Americans out there expressing your opinions. Thanks!! Now go vote in your own country about gun-control or gun ownership. Your opinions are not going to sway any opinions here.

[ibstolidude]

Criminals by nature (and defnition) do not follow laws, so the dude is going to illegally rob a bank and kill the clerks, but won't do it with an illegal weapon, cause well it's against the law?

I must have missed something...and anyone who things the UK model would work in America is delusional...the guns are already here..it would take 150 years to round them, up...besides it is a violation of the constitution, certainly restrictions and control measures are acceptable...pay your 200$, wait for a background check and get your tax stamp - and have your fun.


or so says little ol' me

[Andyman]

If guns made a country safer than the U.S would be the safest country in the world.

NEWSFLASH

ITS NOT

The reason why i am concerned about gun control in america is simply because i dont think that anymore people need to die a needless death. I am sure many people who had the same WHATEVER attitude towards gun control quickly changed their mind when their kids school got shot up or they came home and found out their kid shot himself in the face with "daddy's hadgun". Sorry guys i know this is annoying so i will stop talking about but know one can say that i dnt care.

[Beowulf]

If guns made a country safer than the U.S would be the safest country in the world.

NEWSFLASH

ITS NOT

The reason why i am concerned about gun control in america is simply because i dont think that anymore people need to die a needless death. I am sure many people who had the same WHATEVER attitude towards gun control quickly changed their mind when their kids school got shot up or they came home and found out their kid shot himself in the face with "daddy's hadgun". Sorry guys i know this is annoying so i will stop talking about but know one can say that i dnt care.

"....One example is gun deaths involving children. My guess is that if you go out and ask people, how many gun deaths involve children under age 5, or under age 10, in the United States, they're going to say thousands. When you tell them that in 1996 there were 17 gun deaths for children under age 5 in the United States and 44 for children under age 10, they're just astounded. There's a reason why they believe these deaths occur much more frequently: If you have a gun death in the home involving a child under age 5, you're going to get national news coverage. Five times more children drown in bathtubs; more than twice as many drown in five-gallon water buckets around the home. But those deaths do not get national news coverage."
Source: http://reason.com/0001/fe.js.cold.shtml

[Saranof]

Something to think about...


"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. "


"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. "


"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. "


"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."


Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because
of gun control: 56 million.


So you say that if I could have my glock17 in my house, I could do something about the squad of armed army guys arresting me? ;)
I get it! More guns= me being safe from opressive government
So lets jopin the militia then? Yah know, the UN is gonna take over next year...

You get the general picture...

[Saranof]

I'm surprise that nobody has said: "Gun don't kill people, people do," or something to that effect.

As Eddie Izzard said.
"The NRA go on like, "guns don't kill people, people do!" but I think the guns helps...yuo could go up to someone and go *BANG!* but that would only work if he had like a really weak heart..."

[Andyman]

Eddie Izzard is a comedic god. I tried to get tickets to his concert in Toronto at the end of october but he was sold out 4 months ago. Very Very depressing :petting: :cantbeli:

[Andyman]

"As the national rifle association says its not guns that kill people its maneuvers" - Eddie Izzard

Anyone here should try to watch his stand up movie "Dressed to Kill" its hularious

[ibstolidude]

[quote="Saranof
So you say that if I could have my glock17 in my house, I could do something about the squad of armed army guys arresting me? ;)
I get it! More guns= me being safe from opressive government
So lets jopin the militia then? Yah know, the UN is gonna take over next year...

You get the general picture...[/quote]

- you could always use that rapier wit and try posting derogatory comments at the assailants.