For Russia's elite special forces, quiet burials

[2RHPZ]

For Russia's elite special forces, quiet burials

NIKOLSKO-ARKHANGELSKOE CEMETERY, Russia

They lived in secret. They knew that they could well die that way, too.

At least 11 of them - members of Russia's most elite special forces teams, the Alfa and Vympel units - died as they tried to rescue hundreds of hostages in the deadly climax to the attack at Middle School No. 1 in the southern town of Beslan. Some of them, their names withheld by the authorities, were buried over the past few days in a little-known section of this huge cemetery just outside Moscow.

But the precise circumstances of their deaths remain unexplained, fueling bitter questions about whether Russian government tactics may have cost lives. The questions also put an unaccustomed focus on some of the country's most covert military units in the aftermath of a horrific incident that resulted in the deaths of more than 300 hostages, about half of them children.

Alfa and Vympel are often compared to Delta Force, the elite U.S. Army commando unit, and Britain's fabled Special Air Service. Founded as units of the KGB, the Soviet Union's intelligence and internal security agency, Alfa and Vympel now operate under its successor, the FSB, and are thought to have 400 to 500 officers altogether.

Russia's first antiterrorism force, Alfa was established in 1974 by Yuri Andropov, then the chairman of the KGB. Vympel, which means banner, was started several years later, and lacks some of Alfa's clout and aura. Members of both units are specially selected from among FSB officers and undergo five years of intense training.

Now, like New York City police officers and firefighters after Sept. 11, 2001, these "spetznas," or special forces fighters, are national heroes, but their nation knows little about them.

"They died defending Russia's children," said Mikhail Odinokov, the manager of the cemetery, as he led a visitor to the manicured pine grove that is the private special forces cemetery, patrolled by the police and monitored by security cameras.

How did these men die? Odinokov paused and then said, "We can't give out that kind of information."

His colleague, a retired special forces officer, snorted. "Why can't we? They are heroes, like your firefighters in America. People should know who they are."

Both men fell silent.

The ages of the dead ranged from 21 to 36. And a few names carved into the dark gray granite gravestones were visible: Alexei Turkin, born 1975. Dmitri Razumovsky, born 1968. Date of death: Sept. 3, 2004. A day after the funerals, friends and colleagues came to lay flowers or to leave traditional funeral offerings, like a glass of vodka and a slice of bread, cigarettes and candles. Some wept, and waved off a reporter's requests for comment.

The Russian military operation at Beslan "was a disaster" on the order of those experienced by U.S. special forces in their "Black Hawk Down" battle in Somalia in 1993 and their failed attempt to free U.S. hostages in Iran a quarter-century ago, said Roger McDermott, a senior fellow and Eurasian military analyst at the University of Kent in England and a senior fellow of the Jamestown Foundation. But, he said, the men performed heroically.

"They were caught off guard, but largely trying to do their best trying to save these children's lives," he said.

Infuriated and grieving Russians want answers to many questions: Why did intelligence agencies fail to pick up on the hostage-takers' planning for the siege? How did the armed attackers make their way through checkpoints? Why were basic security measures not taken after the school was seized? Why was the final Russian military action so haphazard, and why did it result in so many deaths?

The official explanation, put forth by the Russian general prosecutor's office, is that an explosion in the school went off by accident and that as hostages began fleeing and their captors began shooting at them, the Alfa and Vympel forces stormed the building. According to this version, the commandos were then caught in cross-fire when residents of Beslan began firing toward the school from behind. One unidentified wounded special forces soldier, interviewed on Russian television, confirmed that after the blast, the two commando teams were caught between lines of fire - pinned down by the hostage-takers inside the building and fired on by local residents who began shooting at the hostage-takers.

Three Alfa and seven Vympel officers died in the fight, and another wounded commando died last week. At least 30 unit members were seriously wounded.

Some Russians have criticized the units for arriving too late. Newspapers have reported that the commandos did not have a map of the building, and that the police never established a cordon around the school to stop the attackers from fleeing.

Others offer a different critique. They suggest that the Kremlin, placing a premium on a show of force, had planned an assault all along, regardless of the potential loss of life. According to this theory, officials would justify their actions by saying that their decisions were prompted by an accident in the building - though, in this case, the hostages inside did say the fighting began when a explosion went off unexpectedly.

"The same thing happened during the Moscow theater siege," recalled Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent Russian military analyst, referring to an attack in October 2002 in which 129 hostages and 41 hostage-takers died. Almost immediately after the military stormed the building, he said, "the Kremlin put out a statement saying it had to be done because hostages were being shot."

"As it turned out later," he said, "that wasn't true."

But the special forces soldiers' scramble into the fray - in which many of them did not even have the time to don bulletproof vests - is ample refutation of this, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Yermolin, the former head of operations of Vympel and now a member of Parliament, told Ekho Moskvy radio.

There are accounts that the Alfa unit was planning a more careful operation. Before the assault, Alfa's superiors at the FSB ordered the unit to prepare to storm the school with 30 men, said a photographer, Dmitri Belyakov, who was positioned with the unit for The Sunday Times of London the day of the siege. The commanders discussed tactics and options, Belyakov wrote.

"I never heard anyone question whether they were going to storm the building," he wrote. "The only question was when and how the assault should take place."

Even without a plan, some analysts contended, the Alfa and Vympel forces did save some children and might have helped the government to save face. "They saved Russia's reputation when they rushed into battle without a plan and without any bulletproof jackets - in effect, contrary to their own professional training," Yulia Latynina, an independent political commentator, wrote in the newspaper Novaya Gazeta.

[2RHPZ]

Kazakh PM orders improvement of special forces' supplies

Astana. (Interfax-Kazakhstan) - Kazakh Prime Minister Danial Akhmetov has assigned appropriate agencies the task of taking measures to improve the material and technical supplies of the special forces.

The order followed a Thursday inspection of the special units of the National Security Committee, Arystan, and Sunkar, the government said in a press release issued on Friday.

The prime minister ordered that the necessary measures be taken to provide these forces with everything they need and that the central and local authorities provide these forces "with comprehensive and effective assistance."

Akhmetov visited the places where the forces are stationed during a working visit to Almaty and the Almaty region.

Link (http://www.interfax.com/com?item=Kaz&pg=0&id=5754521&req=)

[Levan]

well, in Russia every one knows everything about Alfa and Vimpel. Names of operatives killed appeared within two days after assault.
The average level of their training and equipment is low. Too low for most elite force. This forces could not prevent and act adequately in every major operation including government house siege in Moscow where they refused to storm the compound and also Buddenovsk siege, Pervomaisk siege and now in Beslan, where arriving after assault began they still have casualties which are very very high. Every time they suffered heavy loses in this kind of operations. During their unsuccessful attack in Buddenovsl 3 Alfa officers died and almost 130 hostages. With possible no real harm to terrorists (siege continued after assault). In Nord Ost no casualties in Alfa reported but more than 100 hostages died. Also according to eye witnesses the shoot in the head and executed all terrorists including women which where disabled after gas attack. So there was endde no need for such violence. as a result no witnesses left, which coull help to investigate plot and prevent such scenarios in future.

SF equipment is very similar to OMON or SOBR units (interior quick reaction forces). Weapons they use are same as in regular infantry units. Last time there appeared some new sights and laser aiming systems on Ak rifles. They also got Vintorez series. very good weapon but rarely seen on the scene where alfa operated (incl. Beslan). May be they do not have enough funding to buy more. I don`t know.

Of course Alfa has successful operations but most of them are related to soviet era. Also we should take in to account that Alfa lost its privileged status after refusing to storm rebel parliamentarians fortressed in so called white house. After this government did not trust Alfa and withdraw its operatives from president’s security system. And there were talks about even dismissing Alfa. After this it is understandable why Alfa is not fit for such difficult scenarios. By the way Vimpel biography is also very similar to Alfa.

[sergey31]

This is for evryone (besides the obvius troll).
Please do not respond in any way.... No need what so ever to feed fuking troll on this or any other treads..... Just don't reply to it.

[Levan]

This is for evryone (besides the obvius troll).
Please do not respond in any way.... No need what so ever to feed fuking troll on this or any other treads..... Just don't reply to it.

if you noticed some mistakes or false information, report it to all forum mebers. If not, f@ck off :bash:

[Levan]

I also try to gather information about tactics deployed in Alfa and other CT terrorist unit. and try to analyze it and compare with similar forces in the rest of the world. a also collect video footage of working Alfa and have mentioned some very interesting details. First Alfa do not has a special vehicles squad. for example german GSG-9 got its own drivers a fleet of special vehicles and also helicopters which are assigned to border guard but are trained especially for cooperation with GSG-9. There are realy legends coming around about their unique flying skills. As I know there is no such branch in Alfa squad. regular units from 58th army stationed in Osetia supported Alfa with its own vehicles.
I also have no information about techniques alfa use in training their operatives. As some professionals should know numerous methods are developed worldwide which can effectively use one assaulting squads firepower to effectively engage and destroy terrorists even if they rae located between many hostages and in confined space. I know that GSG got ist own technique, so called "drilling fire" effectively used in Mogadisho incident. Israelis got also very strong and sophisticated techniques. I don t know nothing about system which is used in Alfa. All I know that numerous Alfa operatives where killed in action in Beslan because they could not engage terrorists covered by hostages. Here are some examples which I heard directly from hostages as well as wounded Alfa operatives. First: one terrorist covered by hostage managed to hit from close range three SF operatives while they did not shoot at him for some unknown reasons. Head of terrorist group was killed along with small boy who was used by him as a shield. Note: terrorist was in very bad condition, I mean his body was damaged by shrapnel. so was the body of dead child. may be they received this wounds after they where killed by "precision" shots or may be they died because operatives used against both of them hand grenades.
Another story tells us that numerous SF operatives tried to rescue children without wearing bullet proof west. that is absolutely fantastic story. How SF operatives discovered themselves in combat zone without bullet proof wests??? and this after 30 minutes.
many questions are raised by viewing the footage of beslan school siege. Till now I personaly hear no answer.
Also another absolutely sensational information was released by photo correspondent of one of the russian military journals called "bratishka". His interview along with some very dramatic photo was broadcasted on russian central TV channel on Sunday. according to his comment after initial blasts when the assault begin by Alfa and Vimpel, the storming groups from rear side of school staid outside for 20-25 minutes. First alfa assault group could not blast the door from rear side of school, and was left outside, another vimpel group located in front of school entrance was there with no move for 25 minutes receiving enemy fire, till they finally managed to get in. all fotos were attached.
fotos also showed that number of hostages in gym was relatively small. two blasts made little damage and the third one was really powerful and set gym on fire. Between this blasts no hostages managed to escape from gym.
also we saw on foto a SF sniper with NO helmet, No bullet proof west, NO equipment on him. hi was dressed only in T-shirt.
also another shocking comment came later in same interview. SF forces presented there DO NOT RECEIVED requested amount of ammo. (this photo correspondent was embedded to Alfa unit)
Now you decide, what chances got hostages in Beslan.

[ShotOver]

Shut ya mouth mate, there is a time and a place for this argument, and it's not here. These heros died defending their countrymen.
It's been stated they will recieve improved funding, so leave it at that.

Rest In Peace, brave soldiers of Russia.

[American Patriot]

I could be wrong but one would think that Russia's "PR department" would make sure it's SF units had the best equipment and training for times like these. What you are saying does not make any sense!

[ShotOver]

Hes saying they did not have kevlar vests or helmets. But the Alfa men that were cut down ran to the school to help drag bodies away, they needed to be fast. Armour slows you down, and wouldnt do much in a hail of bullets from multi machinegun positons anyway.

[Levan]

Hes saying they did not have kevlar vests or helmets. But the Alfa men that were cut down ran to the school to help drag bodies away, they needed to be fast. Armour slows you down, and wouldnt do much in a hail of bullets from multi machinegun positons anyway.

what a stupid comment ...... you are far from reality if you think that death of a few soldiers will change something in Russia. As I mentioned there were already many casualties with no positive results for future.
Also I stiil do not understan why CT assault group should run under fire to drug bodies. Is not it better to engage terrorist? man you are fool.
I don t care what this operarives think... I don t care for what they died, I am not here to discuss how soldiers like their home land. I am here to discuss strictly weapons and tactics used in this particular case and in others too. if someone prefers to f@ck around pretty much time talking about sacrifice and love to our homeland, it is his business. may be he got more money for internet and more free time than me.
once more for stupid dumbasses I repeat: moral side of Beslan siege is not interesting to me.
For me is most interesting the reason why this happaned. and also SF action. all I see I comment here in this forum. But every time idiots (mostly from beloved russia or half russian half americans) come around and begin saing some stupid things about how bad guy I am and make absolutely amateur comments. I do not hear any counter proposals or versions of what happaned there.
:roll:

[Levan]

Rest In Peace, brave soldiers of Russia.

repeat this hundred times and than ask yourself who is interested here in your post like this and does this post makes any sense on forum?. answer is: nobody cares about your feelings and your post is absolutely needless for other members, because it does not contain any interesting information. I came here to listen to proffesionals and their opinion about some events which took place in the world, I dont need your sentimental ****, nobody does.

[ShotOver]

You are a complete and utter **** head.
Case closed

[American Patriot]

You're an anti-Russian ****heel who constantly makes a fool out of himself by spouting off inane banter about the supposed ineptness of Russian SF. No one believes your ****.

[Levan]

You're an anti-Russian ****heel who constantly makes a fool out of himself by spouting off inane banter about the supposed ineptness of Russian SF. No one believes your ****.


Ok, but do you belive when you see official numbers of dead hostages? dont you have any desire to know why this happaned? Oh I understand! for you on this forum is most important to show to others how you deeply regret what happaned. How sorry you are. How right person you are. What is your reason of beeng here?
There is no supposed ineptnes, there is actual ineptnes. Results hundreds killed and many idiots in internet who are posting **** on which nobody cares.
do you want to analize what happned? stay here. If not, dissapear and tell me later how you love me.

PT
You are less smarter than cartoon hero you have on your avatar/ No ****.

[ShotOver]

Mate, when was the last time you saw the light of day?
Your head being rammed up your arse must be really hurting your back, eh?

Oh, and Johnny Bravo is a great, great man.

[Levan]

No one believes your ****.

why not? it seems that I hate russia and this is enough for you not to hear my comments?

[n4292936]

First off Johny Bravo is the man, dont F*ck with him.

Secondly, your point is taken Levan, but I think most people that are expressing grief are probably not doing it for image sake. I suspect they are genuine because the event has touched the raw nerve still exposed by 9-11, and they empathise with the Russians.
That said, I think it is clear that when several hundred hostages die that something has gone wrong. I cannot imagine, for example, several armed civilians being allowed anywhere near the site of a hostage scenario in either Aus, UK, or America. The unfolding of events does indeed suggest that something could have been done better. Remember, there are nearly no operations that go off perfectly. I hope the Russians have a fruitful "lessons learned" session over this incident and improve where they need to. Crowd control would seem to be an obvious place to start.

[Levan]

Mate, when was the last time you saw the light of day?
Your head being rammed up your arse must be really hurting your back, eh?

Oh, and Johnny Bravo is a great, great man.

:D

[Levan]

First off Johny Bravo is the man, dont F*ck with him.

Secondly, your point is taken Levan, but I think most people that are expressing grief are probably not doing it for image sake. I suspect they are genuine because the event has touched the raw nerve still exposed by 9-11, and they empathise with the Russians.
That said, I think it is clear that when several hundred hostages die that something has gone wrong. I cannot imagine, for example, several armed civilians being allowed anywhere near the site of a hostage scenario in either Aus, UK, or America. The unfolding of events does indeed suggest that something could have been done better. Remember, there are nearly no operations that go off perfectly. I hope the Russians have a fruitful "lessons learned" session over this incident and improve where they need to. Crowd control would seem to be an obvious place to start.

you are right! nay be my a little bit agressive policy here is inspired by some morons from russia, but anyway I finaly managed to get some clever opinion.
There can be lined out some level to define how operation was saccesfull.
As to lesson learned, I am not sure they made some real good conclusions. Thereby I refer to same incidents which took place earlier. And this incidents are repeating over and over again. This three incidents are well known, Pervomaisk, Buddenovsk, Nord Ost and know Beslan. But there are also another same incidents with no attention payed because not as many civilians dies. Assault in Grozny, assault in Ostia on local governement and law enforcement offices, assault on Dagestan (after this second chechen war started) and also many suicide attacks with trucks packed by explosives. ALL of them were succesfull.... they are still succesfull....were are lessons learned?

By the way I watched this Jonny Bravo cartoons))) I like it ))

[Levan]

returning to the level of success I remember that some officials in Russia described Nord Ost assault as a successful operation. According tk their point of view, 129 killed among 800 hostages taken, is a good result.
Discussing operation and its results we must carefully analyze all factors under which operation began and efforts made by CT force to ensure maximum effectives of measure taken.
Try to understand me, I become very angry seeing the oceans of lie created by Russian for themselves. It is basically the same than see some class B action movie where a hero shoots fifteen times from Colt Python with no reloadings. I see cheap fake. And when such cheap fakes are related to innocents which died and will result in more casualties in the future I become very angry and I seek some sources to tell others what I think, to make some cautions. And I will be glad if my posts will be accessed by some viewers from other parts of the world. I wont every body to know what I think about such incidents, based on my knowledge and experience. I think from moral point of view this policy is much better and much needed than posting emoticons and tell everyone how sorry we are.
IMHO
I dont care about idiots with lack of possibility for conversation with real people who try to live their life in internet and bring here no expirience no knoweledge or information, just their some times idiotic and stupid feelings. :fork:

[droopy]

RIP to all fallen soldiers.

@LEvan:
dear myster know it all and i`m realistic and not BS.
Ok let`s say for a second that the russian SOF are junk compared to western SOF.
Did you compare the TERRORISTS the west and russia faced.
The west had stupid terrorists with knifes,Uzi`s and here there an AK.
Not expereinced mercenaries with body armor,AK,PKM,SVD,RPG,"black widows",and kilograms of exposives ahnging over the head of 1000 childs.
The western SOF never came close to an incident of this amplitude.
So untill then ( i hope never) the western SOF have zero experience in real life cause killhose drills don`t count :slap:

[n4292936]

I suspect, but have no real way of knowing, that while lessons are learned, the required changes in force structure and methodology are more difficult to impliment in Russia than say, the UK. The Russian military is rather large and comes from a long heritage. Such an institution may find itself hampered by its own momentum. It has little problem continuing along it present course but its difficult to change certain aspects. Such large state institution can become ossified or static over time. Modern circumstances of warefare are such that nothing short of a revolution in Military technology and methods will suffice to sustain cutting edge forces. Very few militaries in the world actually subscribe seriously enough to the RMA school of thought that has seen the US maintain predominance, and Australia maintain integratable operating capacities with the US. Changes in the military are very hard to impliment unless there is an embedded culture of reform and adaption within that military. It took a long time for America to learn this lesson but it has learned it well. I think Russia may still be in the learning phase.

[Sergei]

No one believes your ****.

why not? it seems that I hate russia and this is enough for you not to hear my comments?
Hey Levan, take a break! You don't have to be a prick every day in your life, you know.

[-Max2-]

The west had stupid terrorists with knifes,Uzi`s and here there an AK.
Not expereinced mercenaries with body armor,AK,PKM,SVD,RPG,"black widows",and kilograms of exposives ahnging over the head of 1000 childs.
The western SOF never came close to an incident of this amplitude.
So untill then ( i hope never) the western SOF have zero experience in real life cause killhose drills don`t count

I dont agree.

During the Air France hijacking in Marseilles airport in 1994, the four terrorists were well-armed (AK-47s, Uzi, Makarov pistol, grenades and dynamite placed in the cockpit and beneath a row of passenger seats) and expertly trained. The French GIGN managed to save all 160 hostages without any casualties on their side and killed the four terrorists despite a unfavourable situation (CQB in a plane cabin, hard to see the enemy, limited use of snipers)...

And the first GIGN operation in Djibouti in 1976 also involved children being taken hostages (in a bus). 29 of the 30 children were saved...

[droopy]

The west had stupid terrorists with knifes,Uzi`s and here there an AK.
Not expereinced mercenaries with body armor,AK,PKM,SVD,RPG,"black widows",and kilograms of exposives ahnging over the head of 1000 childs.
The western SOF never came close to an incident of this amplitude.
So untill then ( i hope never) the western SOF have zero experience in real life cause killhose drills don`t count

I dont agree.

During the Air France hijacking in Marseilles airport in 1994, the four terrorists were well-armed (AK-47s, Uzi, Makarov pistol, grenades and dynamite placed in the cockpit and beneath a row of passenger seats) and expertly trained. The French GIGN managed to save all 160 hostages without any casualties on their side and killed the four terrorists despite a unfavourable situation (CQB in a plane cabin, hard to see the enemy, limited use of snipers)...

And the first GIGN operation in Djibouti in 1976 also involved children being taken hostages (in a bus). 29 of the 30 children were saved...
I don`t think that there were 50 terrorists or 1000 hostages in that plane.
Plus i don`t know if you have seen the video made by terrorists in the gym they had a device that worked by pressure a terrorist would stand on it if there was no pressure the whole gym would blow up.
How would anyone on this plannet would coup with that ???Not to talk about the "black widows".

What are you saying 30 hostages on one incident and 160 on the other is 1/5 of the hostages in Beslan so like i said the western SSOF has never face something like Beslan or Mosocw theather.

[Novara]

You're all forgetting one thing. INTENT. What were the INTENTIONS of the terrorists at Beslan? To kill everyone...inflict as many casualties as possible? If so, the Russian SF did a good job.
Terrorists have changed. They've radicalised somewhat.
Doesn't matter how well armed he is, but how prepared he is to use those arms.

Do not criticise men who've paid the ultimate sacrifice. How would you like it if I come and piss on your grave?

[-Max2-]

I don`t think that there were 50 terrorists or 1000 hostages in that plane.


It was in a plane so there were, of course, less terrorists. The challenge here was the very compact environment of the cabin plane. And the fact that there were less terrorists than in Beslan change nothing. This operation was, at least, as risky as in Beslan. The terrorists were hiding among the passangers and there were dynamite placed in the cockpit and in the cabin fused by one detonator...

And note that there wasnt a single passanger hit by small arms fire during the assault. Only 13 passagers were treated for light injuries...

Anyway, i doubt that Alfa or Vympel would have done better than the GIGN in Marseilles.


so like i said the western SSOF has never face something like Beslan or Mosocw theather.

Western CT/HRT units never faced this kind of situation but they faced dangerous situations. And they have more experience in hostage rescue (and better equipment) than Russian SOF. After all, units like SAS CRW, GSG9, GIGN, etc, were the world's first dedicated Counter-Terrorists units (created in the early 70s after the Munich Olympic incident)...

[Novara]

I don`t think that there were 50 terrorists or 1000 hostages in that plane.


It was in a plane so there were, of course, less terrorists. The challenge here was the very compact environment of the cabin plane. And the fact that there were less terrorists than in Beslan change nothing. This operation was, at least, as risky as in Beslan. The terrorists were hiding among the passangers and there were dynamite placed in the cockpit and in the cabin fused by one detonator...

And note that there wasnt a single passanger hit by small arms fire during the assault. Only 13 passagers were treated for light injuries...

Anyway, i doubt that Alfa or Vympel would have done better than the GIGN in Marseilles.


so like i said the western SSOF has never face something like Beslan or Mosocw theather.

Western CT/HRT never faced this kind of situation but they faced dangerous situations. And they have more experience in hostage rescue (and better equipment) than Russian SOF. After all, units like SAS CRW, GSG9, GIGN, etc, were the world's first dedicated Counter-Terrorists units (created in the early 70s after the Munich Olympic incident)...

Wrong, the SAS was created in 1941. Not in the '70s.

I disagree though. There were 2 'black widows' (Chechan TNT bitches) who blew themselves up as soon as the **** happened. Nobody could avoid the loss of life...SAS, GSG, GOD. Take away the dead from the explosions...then everything else is debatable. How many died from the explosions?

[moughoun]

I don`t think that there were 50 terrorists or 1000 hostages in that plane.


It was in a plane so there were, of course, less terrorists. The challenge here was the very compact environment of the cabin plane. And the fact that there were less terrorists than in Beslan change nothing. This operation was, at least, as risky as in Beslan. The terrorists were hiding among the passangers and there were dynamite placed in the cockpit and in the cabin fused by one detonator...

And note that there wasnt a single passanger hit by small arms fire during the assault. Only 13 passagers were treated for light injuries...

Anyway, i doubt that Alfa or Vympel would have done better than the GIGN in Marseilles.


so like i said the western SSOF has never face something like Beslan or Mosocw theather.

Western CT/HRT never faced this kind of situation but they faced dangerous situations. And they have more experience in hostage rescue (and better equipment) than Russian SOF. After all, units like SAS CRW, GSG9, GIGN, etc, were the world's first dedicated Counter-Terrorists units (created in the early 70s after the Munich Olympic incident)...

Wrong, the SAS was created in 1941. Not in the '70s.

I disagree though. There were 2 'black widows' (Chechan TNT bitches) who blew themselves up as soon as the **** happened. Nobody could avoid the loss of life...SAS, GSG, GOD. Take away the dead from the explosions...then everything else is debatable. How many died from the explosions?

he said the SAS [/u]CRW was established in the 70's and he's right ;)

[-Max2-]

Wrong, the SAS was created in 1941. Not in the '70s.


The SAS CRW (Counter Revolutionary Warfare), the dedicated CT cell of the SAS, was formed in 1973.

And SAS members were already trained to fire with pistols in CQB environment since 1966.

[Novara]

ok...i didn't see it

[moughoun]

Good edit job.... :roll:

what a bunch of girls....

OMG.....is that sarcasm, so that's what it look's like, I am in awe of you sir, you are a prince among men

[Novara]

Good edit job.... :roll:

what a bunch of girls....

OMG.....is that sarcasm, so that's what it look's like, I am in awe of you sir, you are a prince among men

You're running a few minutes behind... :)

[moughoun]

Good edit job.... :roll:

what a bunch of girls....

OMG.....is that sarcasm, so that's what it look's like, I am in awe of you sir, you are a prince among men

You're running a few minutes behind... :)

Give me a break, I'm Irish, it's the effing twilight zone here

[bison3255]

Id respond to levan but he is not worthy of my noble and aristocratic Russian attention :D

[aartamen]

Setting aside the sacrifice of the Russian officers, for there's nothing bad can be said about any man who dies trying to save someone else's life, let alone a child's life, you have to look at what's been presented and think about it.

The Russian (ex-Soviet really) military mentality is very rigid, conservative, resistant to criticism, and often arrogant. The most glaring example was that according to the professionals they failed to draw any lessons out of Afghan war b4 Chechen conflict began. This is not my opinion. It's the opinion of those paid to think about miltiary strategy, logistics and tactics. Original purpose of Vympel was not counter-terrorism at all. It was special operations behind enemy lines. Most specifically just before the hostilities with NATO began. They were the people with those legendary suitcase nukes, among other things.
They and Alpha (which is not the real name, unless they now adopted it) have an apparent difficulty in developing and executing these kinds of operations. And now a history of disasters.

I am sure that the officers who died in Beslan were decent, patriotic and brave*. And they were faced with a horrifically dangerous and complex task. It appears that their command structure failed them in not providing them with appropriate training, resources and intelligence to do their job adequately. Moreover the gov-t undermined their operations by lieing on-air about the number of hostages wich caused the relatives to rush the scene with guns. There's very little evidence that anything will change in the way the Russian gov-t abuses and mistreats its own population in general and military in particular. The most salient thing that Putin did in the aftermath of Beslan was propose serious curtailing of civi liberties of Russian citizens in all of Russia.


* The definition of a hero, if I am not mistaken, is someone who risks something vital (health, life) for something that has no direct bearing on his interests. These guys are undeniably heroes. But would not it be better if they were living heroes?

[saigonsmuggler]

Levan and others have brought out some very valid points about the failures in Beslan:

1. Why were there armed and untrained civilians/militia near the school?
2. Why weren't there a solid military cordon of the school?
3. Why the long delay in the assault of the school by the Alfa and Vympel teams?

The Russians need to look closer at their tactics in such hostage situation. Surely they faced some of the toughest CT situations out there but there are many inexcusable, easily correctable mistakes that were made.

I hope next time, these brave Russian officers will not die because of some obvious errors in tactics. Top Russian generals admitted that up to 20 elite Russians officers may have been shot in the back by untrained, trigger-happy armed civilians nearby. This is totally unacceptable!

[Dmitri]

Levan, you stupid filthy whore, you just made all the facts turn against Alfa, except the way you presented them is too far from reality. I suggest you read some information about the Buddenovsk assault and other ones you mentioned..... God you are pissing me off! Where are you from, Georgia, Chechnya?? Vas hachei za takoe ubludstvo bit' nado!
I wouldn't be surprised if you are simpathetic to the terrorists' cause. I haven't been on this forum for a while, so I don't know much about you, but you sound like a piece of scum. It's ok, I'll be in Iraq soon getting rid of the fanatics that you are rooting for so vigorously :-*$

[bison3255]

aartmen- there were lessons from first chechen war. Namely if the civilians oppose you **** them and just conventionalize the war.

he is from georgia, it is not his fault...

[Dmitri]

As far as some of these questions, read some info about what happened! Alfa didn't initiate the assault, and the civilians were parents and relatives that were there from the beginning, try dragging them away from the school and put them behind the fence!

[saigonsmuggler]

As far as some of these questions, read some info about what happened! Alfa didn't initiate the assault, and the civilians were parents and relatives that were there from the beginning, try dragging them away from the school and put them behind the fence!
But why allow them to be around ARMED???

They are untrained and trigger-happy! Being a parent, my heart went out to those parents but there is no need for them being armed since the professionals are already on the case.

The Russian soldiers should have disarmed these people.

[bison3255]

In the north caucasus disarmign them would mean a firefight

[saigonsmuggler]

In the north caucasus disarmign them would mean a firefight
Well bring out the tanks if you have too and disarm all civilians hanging around the scene and establish an air-tight military cordon. I am sure the Russian military will handle this differently next time.

It is truely sad that these officers, trained hard for years to save lives, then give it up to friendly fire by untrained civilians. :cantbeli:

[Khabbi]

RIP :petting:

[droopy]

In the north caucasus disarmign them would mean a firefight
Well bring out the tanks if you have too and disarm all civilians hanging around the scene and establish an air-tight military cordon. I am sure the Russian military will handle this differently next time.

It is truely sad that these officers, trained hard for years to save lives, then give it up to friendly fire by untrained civilians. :cantbeli:

And leave other places unguarded so that terrorists can strike come think a little guys ;)