a rabbi of the West Bank calls to Sharon's murder

[Pégase]

Sharon death threat

Tuesday September 14, 08:46 PM
By Matt Spetalnick
JERUSALEM (*******) SECURITY ROUND SHARON TIGHTENED

Since then security has been tightened round Sharon, once godfather of the settlement movement but now reviled as a traitor by some former followers for his plan to "disengage" from four years of conflict with the Palestinians by uprooting 8,000 settlers in occupied Gaza.

In a new threat, a settler-rabbi, Yosef Dayan, told Israel's Channel Two television he was prepared to hold a mystical Jewish ceremony known as "Pulsa Denura" that would put a death curse on Sharon.

Dayan, a former member of the outlawed anti-Arab Kach party, conducted such a ceremony before Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination in 1995 by an ultra-nationalist Jew opposed to his interim peace accords with the Palestinians, media reports said.

The rabbi's comments sparked outrage across the Israeli political spectrum and police said they would ask the Prosecution Service to advise whether he had broken the law.

"We are dealing with a rabbi who has openly incited to murder the prime minister," Dalia Itzik, a legislator from the main opposition Labour Party, said in a statement calling for Dayan's arrest.

Urging a non-violent struggle against Sharon's plan, the Council of Jewish Settlements in Judea, Samaria (the West Bank) and Gaza issued a statement condemning calls to harm him.

The council said Sharon could calm tensions by holding a general election or a referendum on the withdrawal plan.

Earlier, Sharon dismissed as a stalling tactic a call by Benjamin Netanyahu, his rival in the rightist Likud party, for a referendum on a Gaza pullout.

Polls show most Israelis support Sharon's plan to evacuate Gaza's hard-to-defend settlements. His opponents say ceding land captured in the 1967 Middle East war would "reward terror".

Many Palestinians see the plan as a ruse to hold on to large swathes of the West Bank, where most of Israel's 240,000 settlers live.

An Israeli official said Israel's Galilee region and the Negev desert would be "priority areas" for relocation but settlers were free to move anywhere, including the West Bank.

Sharon is determined to stick to his timetable to bring the settler compensation law before his full cabinet in coming weeks and seek parliament's preliminary approval by November 3.


This kind of ceremony is called one "Pulsa Denura", or a mystical rite directed against a person whose one wishes death.

"If the rabbis say that one 'Pulsa Denura' must be organized, I am ready to do it immediately", affirmed Yosef Dayan on television. "There are people who want Sharon dead... I form part of these. It is prohibited for me to fight?", he asked.

[StarvingStudent47]

I think we should DOV-9 this guy's house. Unless, of course, he can put a death curse on diesel engines too.

[Javehn]

Kah - Kahane Hay movement . Discrase to our religion and people . Everyone has his bad apples ...
This is a shame , that in our country , when there is a brave move to change this ****y Status Quo we are living it , people still are thick headed , and not only the extremists . And that suppose to be in enlighten state :( .

[Moledet]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

[SeanAshi]

In a new threat, a settler-rabbi, Yosef Dayan, told Israel's Channel Two television he was prepared to hold a mystical Jewish ceremony known as "Pulsa Denura" that would put a death curse on Sharon.
I wished someone would curse Arafat.

[W(M)D]

Israelis across the political spectrum need to focus on their external enemies (of which there are many), not turn in on each other.

[S'13]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

A leader who wishes to act in accordance to the will of a majority of his people isn't acting like a dictator... Unless a whole new definition was given to the word . :)

[Moledet]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

A leader who wishes to act in accordance to the will of a majority of his people isn't acting like a dictator... Unless a whole new definition was given to the word . :)
He agreed to listen to his voters and to let all the Likud members to vote, the Likud members decided that he shouldn't transfer the Jews from Gaza strip. He refused to listen to them and did a political trick to bypass this decission, but this political trick didn't work well because he didn't have a majority for the transfer to Jews in the government, so he fired some ministers that opposed his plan and got a majority. That sound like a dictator to me.

Oh, and now he refuses to make a referendum because he knows that he won't have a majority if the settlers (and police officers, soldiers, high rank generals) will start passing house by house to explain people about his crazy plan.

[S'13]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

A leader who wishes to act in accordance to the will of a majority of his people isn't acting like a dictator... Unless a whole new definition was given to the word . :)
He agreed to listen to his voters and to let all the Likud members to vote, the Likud members decided that he shouldn't transfer the Jews from Gaza strip. He refused to listen to them and did a political trick to bypass this decission, but this political trick didn't work well because he didn't have a majority for the transfer to Jews in the government, so he fired some ministers that opposed his plan and got a majority. That sound like a dictator to me.

Yeah, let a few hundred Likud members decide for over six milion Israelis, what a way to uphold democracy. :roll:
I'm sure if the Likud members had voted to annex the east bank of the Jordan river you'd also expect Sharon to listen, right? ;)

I have one word for you... Referendum. If a majority of Israelis don't agree with the Disengagement Plan then you shouldn't be afraid.

[Javehn]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

A leader who wishes to act in accordance to the will of a majority of his people isn't acting like a dictator... Unless a whole new definition was given to the word . :)
He agreed to listen to his voters and to let all the Likud members to vote, the Likud members decided that he shouldn't transfer the Jews from Gaza strip. He refused to listen to them and did a political trick to bypass this decission, but this political trick didn't work well because he didn't have a majority for the transfer to Jews in the government, so he fired some ministers that opposed his plan and got a majority. That sound like a dictator to me.

Yeah, let a few hundred Likud members decide for over six milion Israelis, what a way to uphold democracy. :roll:
I'm sure if the Likud members had voted to annex the east bank of the Jordan river you'd also expect Sharon to listen, right? ;)

I have one word for you... Referendum. If a majority of Israelis don't agree with the Disengagement Plan then you shouldn't be afraid.

woot

Go S13 ,it's your birthday ...

[Moledet]

Even though he is acting like a dictator I don't want him dead, I want him removed from his job.

A leader who wishes to act in accordance to the will of a majority of his people isn't acting like a dictator... Unless a whole new definition was given to the word . :)
He agreed to listen to his voters and to let all the Likud members to vote, the Likud members decided that he shouldn't transfer the Jews from Gaza strip. He refused to listen to them and did a political trick to bypass this decission, but this political trick didn't work well because he didn't have a majority for the transfer to Jews in the government, so he fired some ministers that opposed his plan and got a majority. That sound like a dictator to me.

Yeah, let a few hundred Likud members decide for over six milion Israelis, what a way to uphold democracy. :roll:
I'm sure if the Likud members had voted to annex the east bank of the Jordan river you'd also expect Sharon to listen, right? ;)

I have one word for you... Referendum. If a majority of Israelis don't agree with the Disengagement Plan then you shouldn't be afraid.
We're asking for a Referendum, Sharon is the one that disagrees to do one.
He deicded to let the Likud members (150,000 Israelis BTW) to decide, we always asked to make a Referendum. If the PM ask someone to decide He can at least listen to it if he looses, instead of making fishy tricks and to use dictators methods to win a majority in the government.

Right now by the polls only 58% of the Israelis support this plan (remember that 20% of the population are arabs) , and that's without any campaign work of the settlers, with some work we'll be able to get a majority easily.

[GrimReaper]

Even though he failed to show his plan before being elected, and even considering his immoral behavior of disregarding the likud vote, he is not a dictator.
His decision maybe flawed leadership, and smells bad politicly, but it's legal, as legal as Rabin passing Oslo on the vote of political sellouts.
The only way to prevent mayhem is to do a referendum, and one that requires a very large majority to implement.

[S'13]

We're asking for a Referendum, Sharon is the one that disagrees to do one.


This is strange, you claim Shron doesn't want a referendum, even though he himself has claimed that he's prepared to hold one before carrying out the Disengagement Plan...


(150,000 Israelis BTW)

Which if I'm not mistaken makes up less than 2.5% of the population :)


If the PM ask someone to decide He can at least listen to it if he looses, instead of making fishy tricks and to use dictators methods to win a majority in the government.

He doesn't have to listen if the vote doesn't represent what the majority of the people want, heck, polls show that the Likud members vote didn't even represent what most of the Likud voters wanted!


Right now by the polls only 58% of the Israelis support this plan (remember that 20% of the population are arabs) , and that's without any campaign work of the settlers, with some work we'll be able to get a majority easily.

Knock on every door in the country for all I care, just as long as a referendum will be helld. :lol:

P.S
Just some PR advice, don't let people like Yosef Dayan talk too much... :|

[Moledet]

We're asking for a Referendum, Sharon is the one that disagrees to do one.


This is strange, you claim Shron doesn't want a referendum, even though he himself has claimed that he's prepared to hold a one before carrying out the Disengagement Plan...

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2976569,00.html
http://news.iol.co.il/?w=/0/598366
His excuse is, "It will take a lot of time".


(150,000 Israelis BTW)


Which if I'm not mistaken makes up less than 2.5% of the population :)

I just pointed out your mistake, you said a couple of hundreds, which is wrong.




If the PM ask someone to decide He can at least listen to it if he looses, instead of making fishy tricks and to use dictators methods to win a majority in the government.

He doesn't have to listen if the vote doesn't represent what the majority of the people want, heck, polls show that the Likud members vote didn't even represent what most of the Likud voters wanted!

Why he doesn't have to listen? That's like asking someone a question that you have no answer for and then saying, "you are wrong".
As you and I know polls don't show much, same thing with this poll about the transfer to jews plan, it shows nothing, we can easily create a majority against the plan. We already have the backing of the highest ranked generals in the IDF, we have the backing of Police commanders and we have the intel. services with us against this plan, all we need is to ask them to speech and we will do some home-to-home work and the majority will be with us.

[S'13]

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2976569,00.html
http://news.iol.co.il/?w=/0/598366
His excuse is, "It will take a lot of time".


You are bringing forth sources showing what Sharon's "close associates" had said and we can clearly see that even they are not unified over the question of referendum.

In May of this year after the Likud referendum Sharon himself claimed he was willing carry out a referendum for all Israelis. I'm not too happy that he didn't do a referendum in the first place but at least now he undersatnds that it needs to be done.


I just pointed out your mistake, you said a couple of hundreds, which is wrong.

True, I meant to write a few thousend, it happens sometimes when I write too fast and then go over what I wrote too quickly. :)

BTW the turnout rate to the Likud referendum stood at a mere 51% (99,652 voters). ;)


Why he doesn't have to listen? That's like asking someone a question that you have no answer for and then saying, "you are wrong".


In a democracy it's not a question of "wrong" or "right" but of what a majority of the people think, a majority which the 99,000 Likud members didn't represent.


As you and I know polls don't show much, same thing with this poll about the transfer to jews plan, it shows nothing, we can easily create a majority against the plan.

And you should know that there is a deference between a referendum that includes 99,000 Likud members and that of a whole country.


We already have the backing of the highest ranked generals in the IDF, we have the backing of Police commanders and we have the intel. services with us against this plan, all we need is to ask them to speech and we will do some home-to-home work and the majority will be with us.

I think the PR of those who are against the disengagement plan is mostly working on you... :lol:

[S'13]

Officials may take action against rabbi who threatened PM

By Haaretz Service

Police Commissioner Moshe Karadi on Wednesday said police officials were meeting with the State Prosecution to discuss the possibility of initiating criminal proceedings against a rabbi who said he would be willing to hold a ritual calling for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death.

On Tuesday night Rabbi Yossi Dayan, a former member of the outlawed Kach party, declared on Channel 2 that he would be prepared to carry out a ceremony putting a curse on Sharon if the Gaza disengagement plan is not called off.

The ceremony, called Pulsa Denura, was carried out before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995.

Dayan said that he would be willing to conduct the ceremony if other rabbis instructed him to do so, and added that when he was asked to perform the ceremony against Rabin, he did so.

The rabbi said that the security services and the police had questioned him about this. "We are forbidden from talking now. We cannot pray. We cannot think. We cannot feel," Dayan said. "The head of the Security Service, [Avi] Dichter says that there are people wishing that Sharon would die. I am among them. 'Can't I wish?'" he said.

Senior officials in Jerusalem on Wednesday said that preemptive arrests may be necessary in view of threats against Sharon and other top officials, Israel Radio reported.

Public Security Minister Gideon Ezra said that the types of people who made those kinds of threats were not the main danger, since they usually do not take action. Nevertheless, he confirmed that preemptive arrests would be made should the need arise.

Following Dayan's statements, police in the northern West Bank and East Jerusalem are initiating an investigation against him on suspicions of incitement to murder.

Ilan Franco, chief of the capital's police, said priority has been raised of investigations into telephone threats against Sharon and Yonatan Bassi, who is in charge of implementing the disengagement plan.

Franco also said that the police were tightening the security around the offices of the Disengagement Directorate in Jerusalem. He added that the police are also making preparations for securing the Temple Mount against extremists as the date for the implementation of the disengagement plan approaches.

"We intensified the security around the Temple Mount, security that was already in place. We certainly took into account the fact that extremist elements on both sides, not necessarily Jews, will seek to carry out an attack, in an effort to block the diplomatic process," Franco said.

Police and State Prosecutor officers are also continuing to examine the statements made and posters carried during the rightist mass rally in Jerusalem on Sunday for illegal incitement.

"We culled banners during the rally that we thought should be examined by the Prosecutor's Office. If the prosecutor sees fit to instruct us to do so, we will initiate an investigation into the matter," Franco said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/477956.html

[Moledet]

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2976569,00.html
http://news.iol.co.il/?w=/0/598366
His excuse is, "It will take a lot of time".

You are bringing forth sources showing what Sharon's "close associates" had said and we can clearly see that even they are not unified over the question of referendum.

In May of this year after the Likud referendum Sharon himself claimed he was willing carry out a referendum for all Israelis. I'm not too happy that he didn't do a referendum in the first place but at least now he undersatnds that it needs to be done.

He already said on TV that he won't do a referrendum because it will hurt the plan's scheduale.
You can also read it in today's papers.
Here I found it:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/783/123.html


I just pointed out your mistake, you said a couple of hundreds, which is wrong.



True, I meant to write a few thousend, it happens sometimes when I write too fast and then go over what I wrote too quickly. :)

BTW the turnout rate to the Likud referendum stood at a mere 51% (99,652 voters). ;)

Does it matter? At the start the polls showed a support of under 30% against the plan.

BTW, i'm not completely sure that the result was 51% for the plan.




Why he doesn't have to listen? That's like asking someone a question that you have no answer for and then saying, "you are wrong".


In a democracy it's not a question of "wrong" or "right" but of what a majority of the people think, a majority which the 99,000 Likud members didn't represent.

I know, the settlers are for a referendum, just last week the MAFDAL leader said that if there won't be a referendum they'll quit the government (his decission didn't pass in the MAFDAL center so they stayed in the government).




As you and I know polls don't show much, same thing with this poll about the transfer to jews plan, it shows nothing, we can easily create a majority against the plan.

And you should know that there is a deference between a referendum that includes 99,000 Likud members and that of a whole country.

I don't know why you try to present me as someone the oppose the referendum, I'm for it.
All i'm saying is that Sharon should've listened to the Likud referendum because he decided to do it because he didn't have a majority in the government for the plan. The settlers were against this referendum all the time.

P.S. There's a jewish majority against the plan, all we need is to make the Jewish majority larger.



We already have the backing of the highest ranked generals in the IDF, we have the backing of Police commanders and we have the intel. services with us against this plan, all we need is to ask them to speech and we will do some home-to-home work and the majority will be with us.

I think the PR of those who are against the disengagement plan is mostly working on you... :lol:
When so many generals, intel. officers (head of the SHABAK, former head of the SHABAK, the RAMATKAL, the southern command commander, the southern command former commander, Judaha and samaria commander, AMAN commander, Gaza strip commander, former IAF commander, former commander of operations planning in the SHABAK and many more) will lecture against the disengagment plan you'll see people thinking twice before voting "yes".

[S'13]

He already said on TV that he won't do a referrendum because it will hurt the plan's scheduale.
You can also read it in today's papers.
Here I found it:
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/783/123.html


I'm quite disappointed... A referrendum can only strengthen Sharon's position.


Does it matter? At the start the polls showed a support of under 30% against the plan.

BTW, i'm not completely sure that the result was 51% for the plan.

Read what I wrote again, this time more carefully... ;)


I don't know why you try to present me as someone the oppose the referendum, I'm for it.

I never tried to present you as being against the referendum, however your sure that those who are against the disengagement plan will be able to get a majority vote with some PR work, like was done prior to the Likud referendum. I'm pointing out that the two things are different and it won't be easy to get the majority of Israelis on your side as you like to present it.


P.S. There's a jewish majority against the plan, all we need is to make the Jewish majority larger.

Not according to the polls...


When so many generals, intel. officers (head of the SHABAK, former head of the SHABAK, the RAMATKAL, the southern command commander, the southern command former commander, Judaha and samaria commander, AMAN commander, Gaza strip commander, former IAF commander, former commander of operations planning in the SHABAK and many more) will lecture against the disengagment plan you'll see people thinking twice before voting "yes".

Just like all those generals who were sure that we should have stayed in Lebanon? ;)

[combat jack]

This is the world that they live in. Cursed to eternal war and conflict. I dont believe in blowing up school buses but seriously, stealing someones back yard and then wondering why they are getting pissed? Its never going to end.

[S'13]

This is the world that they live in. Cursed to eternal war and conflict. I dont believe in blowing up school buses but seriously, stealing someones back yard and then wondering why they are getting pissed? Its never going to end.

Could you explain who stole whose backyard and what does it have to do with the topic?

[StarvingStudent47]

This is the world that they live in. Cursed to eternal war and conflict. I dont believe in blowing up school buses but seriously, stealing someones back yard and then wondering why they are getting pissed? Its never going to end.

Could you explain who stole whose backyard and what does it have to do with the topic?

I guess Sharon stole the Rabbi's back yard. Or maybe his girlfriend.

Either that, or somebody just saw a thread somehow related to Israel, and felt it was his duty to give his opinion on the existence of Israel. Even if it had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic.

[Sayeret]

I don't agree with a lot of the things Sharon is doing but he doesn't deserve to be killed.

[Sayeret]

I guess Sharon stole the Rabbi's back yard. Or maybe his girlfriend.

That sounds accurate to me. ;)

[StarvingStudent47]

I guess Sharon stole the Rabbi's back yard. Or maybe his girlfriend.

That sounds accurate to me. ;)

That rabbi's gotta be ****ing ugly (like, al-Sadr ugly) if girls leave him for Ariel Sharon.

[SeanAshi]

Just imagne what Shimon Peres would do if he were Prime Minister.

[S'13]

Just imagne what Shimon Peres would do if he were Prime Minister.

He's been PM twice already, 1984-1986 and 1995-1996. Not that he really won any elections... :)

I don't agree with a lot of his opinions but I do respect him. Israel's nuclear weapons program (the one that doesn't exist ;) ) and the Israeli Aircraft Industries exsit mostly thanks to him.

[S'13]

I don't agree with a lot of the things Sharon is doing but he doesn't deserve to be killed.

When a man like Sharon who was one of the fathers of the settlement enterprise and one of its greatest advocates for many years, is willing the be the first PM to actually tear down the settlements in the Gaza Strip... It really makes you think. Maybe as PM he's come to understand what many have not been able to understand, or what many want to ignore.

Of course all of his old friends, the settlement advocates will say he's gone "soft". I simpley belive he became much wiser in the these years which he served as PM.

[Sayeret]

When a man like Sharon who was one of the fathers of the settlement enterprise and one of its greatest advocates for many years, is willing the be the first PM to actually tear down the settlements in the Gaza Strip... It really makes you think. Maybe as PM he's come to understand what many have not been able to understand, or what many want to ignore.

Of course all of his old friends, the settlement advocates will say he's gone "soft". I simpley belive he became much wiser in the these years which he served as PM.

You made a good point about that, its odd that people like him are doing things that they we probably would have never thought they would.

[SeanAshi]

Benjamin Netanyahu needs to run again.

[Moledet]

I never tried to present you as being against the referendum, however your sure that those who are against the disengagement plan will be able to get a majority vote with some PR work, like was done prior to the Likud referendum. I'm pointing out that the two things are different and it won't be easy to get the majority of Israelis on your side as you like to present it.

Why do you think that we won't be able to do it? We convinced Likud voters so we can convince most of the Israelis.




Not according to the polls...

According to the polls approx. 47% of the Jews are for the plan.




Just like all those generals who were sure that we should have stayed in Lebanon? ;)
Were they wrong? We are still being attacked, Hizbullaha has grown larger and now posses rockets that can reach Haifa and even Tel Aviv, it helps terrorists in the west bank and Gaza strip, its support in Lebanon is sky high, it has links with new "friends" like Al Qaeda, etc...
I wouldn't say that they were wrong.

[S'13]

Why do you think that we won't be able to do it? We convinced Likud voters so we can convince most of the Israelis.


You mean you convinced most of the 99,000 Likud members, since polls have shown that a majority of Likud voters are for Sharon's plan.

So the PR worked with those 99,000 people. Why are you so sure that the rest of the Israeli public will be the same?


According to the polls approx. 47% of the Jews are for the plan.

Interesting... Could you please provide me the source?

Also could you also provide the percentage of Jews who are against the plan? :)

I read the poll in yesterdays paper, it showed that 58% are for the plan. It also showed that a mere 27% are against it.


Were they wrong? We are still being attacked, Hizbullaha has grown larger and now posses rockets that can reach Haifa and even Tel Aviv, it helps terrorists in the west bank and Gaza strip, its support in Lebanon is sky high, it has links with new "friends" like Al Qaeda, etc...
I wouldn't say that they were wrong.

Did you forget how many soldiers we lost in Lebanon?

Did you forget that the attacks on the north were ten times as worse when we were in Lebanon.

Today Hezballah is an organization without a cause. That's why they are trying to move into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However us being in Lebanon wouldn't have done anything to stop that, at least we are not fighting on two fronts.

And unless they wish to get Syria and S. Lebanon flattened, they will not dare to fire a single rocket at Haifa, for now all the prophets of apocalypse have been proven quite wrong.

[UkrainianAmerican]

What a f*cking embarrassment. He can wish whatever he wants for sharon, but as a Rabbi, Issuing death wishes on ANYONE is f*cked up, and just helps the moral relativists say: 'hey look Jews issues fatwas as well! bla bla bla bla bla!'
I hope he get arreseted and put into a cell with Arabs.

[Moledet]

You mean you convinced most of the 99,000 Likud members, sonce polls have shown that a majority of Likud voters are for Sharon's plan.

So the PR worked with those 99,000 people. How are you so sure that the rest of the Israeli public will be the same?

I didn't get what you said, we went to every Likud member house.



Interesting... Could you please provide me the source?

Also could you also provide the percentage of Jews who are against the plan? :)

I read the poll in yesterdays paper, it showed that 58% are for the plan. It also showed that a mere 27% are against it.

It's simple math. Every poll represent the percent in the society of every ethnic group, since the arabs are 20% you need to do 58/5 to get the 80% of the people that were questioned.
29% are against the plan, yes, it will be very easy to convince the ones that has no oppinion to vote against the plan. The lefties can't organize a thing, so i'm sure that they won't be able to organize enough people to pass from house to house to concvince people to vote for the plan.
Now, don't tell me that they can organize stuff just because they organized that rally in Rabin square, many of my friends went to that rally just to listen to the artists for free. While to our rally in Zion square came the same amount of people and we invited no artists and we didn't do it in the most populated area of the country.




Did you forget how many soldiers we lost in Lebanon?

Did you forget that the attacks on the north were ten times as worse when we were in Lebanon.

Today Hezballah is an organization without a cause. That's why they are trying to move into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However us being in Lebanon wouldn't have done anything to stop that, at least we are not fighting on two fronts.
Did I say that it was a mistake? All I said that everything they said was right, the Hizbullaha is stronger, the Hibullaha has more support, the attacks continues and it's a major threat to Israel especialy now with the Iranian problem.
Are we safer now? No.
Are we stronger now? No.
Do we have a vast international support? No.
Did we solve the problem? No.
Did the terror organization collapsed? No.
Did we win anything? No.

P.S. You think that Sharon has became wiser, I think he became senile.



And unless they wish to get Syria and S. Lebanon flattened, they will not dare to fire a single rocket at Haifa, for now all the prophets of apocalypse have been proven quite wrong.

Oslo time flashback? :lol:

[S'13]

I didn't get what you said, we went to every Likud member house.


You used the term "voters" when you probebly meant Likud mebers. Just wanted to point out that fact, also wanted to point out the fact that the numbers of Likud members who was 99,000 which is only 51% out of the Likud members who could have voted.
According to polls the majority of Likud voters (not members) are for Sharon's plans.
And as for knocking on the door of every Likud member, well done, however I don't belive you'll be able to this with milions of Israelis and it won't necessarily have the same affect.


It's simple math. Every poll represent the percent in the society of every ethnic group, since the arabs are 20% you need to do 58/5 to get the 80% of the people that were questioned.
29% are against the plan, yes, it will be very easy to convince the ones that has no oppinion to vote against the plan. The lefties can't organize a thing, so i'm sure that they won't be able to organize enough people to pass from house to house to concvince people to vote for the plan.
Now, don't tell me that they can organize stuff just because they organized that rally in Rabin square, many of my friends went to that rally just to listen to the artists for free. While to our rally in Zion square came the same amount of people and we invited no artists and we didn't do it in the most populated area of the country.

"Lefties"? :lol:

A majority of Likud voters are for this plan, most of the mderate right (which I and a majority of Israelis are a part of) is with Sharon. You try to make it sound so easy to convince the swinnging votes because aggressive PR worked with 99,000 people, but belive me that it woudn't be so. Sharon's PR is simple common sense.

For now all polls show a majority for Sharon's plan and a small group against it, however you rely on the swinging votes :) (which probebly wouldn't vote at all).



Did I say that it was a mistake? All I said that everything they said was right, the Hizbullaha is stronger, the Hibullaha has more support, the attacks continues and it's a major threat to Israel especialy now with the Iranian problem.
Are we safer now? No.
Are we stronger now? No.
Do we have a vast international support? No.
Did we solve the problem? No.
Did the terror organization collapsed? No.
Did we win anything? No.

I'm a bit confused by what you wrote, on one hand you ask me if you said that it was a mistake, well when the generalls made those predictions they were saying that leaving S. Lebanon was a mistake and you claim to agree with them. :lol:

Did us being in Lebanon help provide security to those living in the north? No.

Would us staying in Lebanon help improve anything? No.

So why should have we stayed as the generalls were pointing out?


P.S. You think that Sharon has became wiser, I think he became senile.

For a senile person he's dealt quite well with terrorism.


Oslo time flashback? :lol:

The only flashback I get are of the rockets that fell on Kyriat Shemona and the soldeirs who died on foreign soil (maybe not for you since you may see S. Lebanon a part of Greater Israel).

[S'13]

September 13, 2004/Volume 2.28

Israeli Public Opinion on Disengagement and Security

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is engaged in the political fight of his life – against a recalcitrant cabinet, hostile party and increasingly energized settlers’ movement – to get his disengagement plan implemented.

But, according to a recent Peace Index poll (4.5% margin of error) assembled from data obtained in July, Sharon’s plan to remove all settlements from the Gaza Strip and four from the West Bank is supported by 60% of the Israeli population. In fact, 55% of Likud members support the disengagement plan. Despite large right-wing demonstrations and a combative Likud central committee that has restricted Sharon’s room to maneuver in reforming his coalition, polls suggest he has a popular mandate to disengage from the Gaza Strip.

And, according to a Maariv-Teleseker poll released last week with a 4.3% margin of error, Sharon has enough political support to take Israel-Palestinian diplomacy even further.

In regard to the expansion of settlements, a hotly debated topic between Israel and the United States (which officially opposes the increased development of the settlements), only 25% of Israelis support unlimited construction and growth. Twenty-three percent of respondents believe construction for natural growth should be allowed, while a resounding 45% oppose any settlement expansion.

Interestingly, when these results are broken down by political affiliation we see that 64% of Likud voters oppose construction beyond what is needed to accommodate natural growth. Though this hardly signals a repudiation of the settlement enterprise, it does indicate a moderation of the mainstream right-wing views.

These results underline the irony that Sharon is being inhibited by highly vocal and well-organized minority factions and unrepresentative political bodies, many of whom helped bring him to power, even though his disengagement plan has the support of a majority of Israelis.

Security and Separation
Although somewhat more conciliatory on political and territorial issues, most Israelis favor maintaining a hard-line stance on security matters. For instance, after the most recent terror attack in Beersheba 56% of Israelis favored the expulsion of Yasser Arafat from the territories, while only 36% opposed such a move.

An overwhelming majority of respondents support the continued construction of the security barrier, especially after the Beersheba terror attack. Even after the attack 58% said they personally felt safe.

Embodying hawkish and dovish elements, Maariv commentator Uri Rosen sees a “dichotomous political-security conception” prevailing in Israeli public opinion. At the same time, “the left-wing in Israel is at its lowest political level in history… [but] its positions are increasingly taking over the public.”

After four years of violence and terror, Israelis want to separate from the Palestinians, and Prime Minister Sharon is presenting them with a viable way to withdraw to defensible borders. That is why Sharon had the approval of 61% of Israelis in a Maariv-Teleseker poll from June. His main political rival, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has either opposed or obstructed the disengagement plan, and his support among the public fell to 24% (although his harsh economic reforms undoubtedly account for some of his lack of popularity).

Outside observers believe that the disengagement plan will eventually be implemented, not only because Sharon is serious about withdrawing from the Gaza Strip and parts of the northern West Bank, but also because most of the country supports it. The results of the latest polls only reinforce these perceptions.

Written by David Dreilinger and IPF Staff.

http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/display.cfm?id=10&Sub=12