Iran getting ready for a deadly Guerilla War

[2RHPZ]

Iran getting ready for a deadly Guerilla War


The Iranian IRGC (Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps - known as "Pasdaran")
is currently staging an extensive manoeuvre in the western part of the
country to prepare and train the defense of Iran in case of a foreign
agression.

While preceding parts of the war games have included tank, artillery,
surface-surface missile, anti-air defense and air strike operations were
conducted by the IRGC alone, the current stage which concentrates on
guerilla warfare includes an undisclosed number of Basij Forces (the
several million strong iranian militia for which the Pasdaran are directly
responsible). You can see the guerilla war stage in the video above.

here you can see previous stages of the manoeuvre...

http://www.iribnews.ir/video/01/09/12/d0390.wmv

http://www.iribnews.ir/video/01/09/12/d0403.wmv

http://www.iribnews.ir/video/01/09/12/d0405.wmv

http://www.iribnews.ir/video/01/09/12/d0431.wmv

[Novara]

Do they even realise how stupid it all looks? It's nice seeing them run in formation like schoolgirls and an obselete Russian tank being loaded onto an Antonov transporter. But how much of that will survive the initial air campaign?
Don't these goat herders realise that without an airforce, you've got about as much chance of winning a war as Steven Seagal has winning an Oscar.

:roll:

[ch703]

lol,amen

[bison3255]

theyd bag [quite a] a few planes... they have S-300's, Iglas, Stingers, Stinger copies, SA-6's, Tigercats, some other **** I cant be assed to remember.

[Novara]

theyd bag [quite a] a few planes... they have S-300's, Iglas, Stingers, Stinger copies, SA-6's, Tigercats, some other **** I cant be assed to remember.

Stingers are obselete. Not an expert, but I'm pretty sure. What's the range on a stinger? That's just a close defence weapon, only good for low flying helos. Just remember that Iraq had a much superior army/air force in the first Gulf war, and their air defence systems were considered one of the best at the time. They faired badly also. And you're talking a decade back. The US have advanced, Iran has not.

They wouldn't "bag" many planes. The odd F-16/A-10 here and there. Also, anyone notice their old-old-old fashioned tank tactics? Big formations are useless in a desert environment. Just send a whole squadron of apaches...and it's bye bye tanky. Didn't they see the Desert Storm footage??

[Skullknight]

Who are they planning to fight? It's not as if the USA can magically poop 450,000 more soldiers out to fight another war against a nation much better armed and four times as populated Iraq.

[Brozozo]

I should just pee on Iran.

[bison3255]

Theyd get a lot more odd aircraft than Iraq, using helos with Stingers and Iglas around is a good way to get your ass blown out of the sky.

[Novara]

Who are they planning to fight? It's not as if the USA can magically poop 450,000 more soldiers out to fight another war against a nation much better armed and four times as populated Iraq.

They're not much better armed....not from the first war in Iraq, anyway. Anyway, with air supremecy it's just a matter of how many more weeks than Iraq it'll take.
Population means nothing. A million people running at you armed with a bayonet, you in a tank. Who's gonna win? Just take a long time to squash the remaining 999,648 people after your ammo runs out.

[Novara]

Theyd get a lot more odd aircraft than Iraq, using helos with Stingers and Iglas around is a good way to get your ass blown out of the sky.

Errr...no. The range of Hellfires and conventional rocket munition on Apache's is greater than the range of a Stinger. Also, as I said before, Stingers are old technology. You need to be pointing at the helos ass/exhaust, otherwise no tone.
Don't you think the Iraqi's had shoulder-launched missiles? They had far more sophisticated equipment...

p.s. Range of stinger=less to relative shot/distance

[combat jack]

If Im not mistaken, George Bush made some sort of threatening remark to the nation of Iran. I dont think a war with them would be anything like Iraq. Good Idea? Bad Idea.

[bison3255]

Stingers wouldnt protect irans tanks, but in guerilla war they would be quite useful.

[Novara]

Guerilla warfare in a jungle is deadly. Guerilla warfare in the desert is ludicrous.
Depends what you mean by guerilla warfare. Judging by the video I saw, doesn't look much "guerilla" to me. Just conventional forces poncing about the battlefield using outdated tactics.

I think taking Iran will actually be easier than Iraq. We can attack Iran from two sides. Remember Iraq? That was the problem. they knew where we were coming from. Also, carriers can attack from both sides and Iran being big, they'll play a bigger part than in Iraq.
Look at the videos. They have a lot of helos and transporters. Even they know how important these things are. Iran is much bigger than Iraq.

No rivers to cross from either west or east before reaching the capital of Iran.

Tehran in 24 hours, anyone?

What I'm wondering is, where should we go after that? Syria?

[SeanAshi]

I think taking Iran will actually be easier than Iraq.Large number of unemployed Iranian college grads would love that idea but its not going to happen there are no plans to attack Iran.

[Vance]

I should just pee on Iran.
Can I join?

[the_spec]

I think taking Iran will actually be easier than Iraq. We can attack Iran from two sides. Remember Iraq? That was the problem. they knew where we were coming from. Also, carriers can attack from both sides and Iran being big, they'll play a bigger part than in Iraq.
Look at the videos. They have a lot of helos and transporters. Even they know how important these things are. Iran is much bigger than Iraq.

No rivers to cross from either west or east before reaching the capital of Iran.

Tehran in 24 hours, anyone?

Uhm, what we have in Iraq now is a problem, not that silly 3 week campaign after which everybody was high fiving. If you still have not realized that occupation is the hard part, then you probably won't learn anymore.

[jlanni]

propaganda if i say so my self.... is that al their working equipment or just half? haha j/k but anyways i dont see the united states in iran any time soon

[Danzer]

They're not much better armed....not from the first war in Iraq, anyway. Anyway, with air supremecy it's just a matter of how many more weeks than Iraq it'll take.
Population means nothing. A million people running at you armed with a bayonet, you in a tank. Who's gonna win? Just take a long time to squash the remaining 999,648 people after your ammo runs out.

there's a lot of families now in the US that would disagree with you because they 've lost one of their loved ones in Iraq or even afghanistan.
And that happens on a daily basis, and the war has been over since what?


They have a lot of helos and transporters. Even they know how important these things are. Iran is much bigger than Iraq.
This means longer logistical lines for the US aswell with a bigger chance of being attacked.

furthermore conventional airpower alone doesn't win wars.


You need to be pointing at the helos ass/exhaust, otherwise no tone Nope. The stinger is an all-aspect missile

Oh and depending on the model the FIM-92A has a range from 1 to 8 miles
And it's an apache pilot's nightmare. Single guy in a foxhole, let the helo pass, pop up, shoot and one dead helo.

And ask what A-10 pilots fear the most. I'ts manpads.

War is more complicated than you might think. It includes strategic and tactical decisions. Just getting into Teheran doesn't do the trick.
Imho Iran is an entirely different ballgame. Besides that, if the US decided it would go after them i don't think they'll get the support they have now.

[GAFES]

Each country has the right to defend their land. They dont have modern weapons, but the heart and love for their land its what it counts. Onother long ''war'' for the army thats will set foot on Iranian soil.

:|

[Midav]

Each country has the right to defend their land. They dont have modern weapons, but the heart and love for their land its what it counts. Onother long ''war'' for the army thats will set foot on Iranian soil.

:|

What's sad, that long war could very easily be turned around very quickly. Yet, popular support wouldn't be in favor of the tactics....

I'm not talking NBC weapons, either ;)

[Danzer]

Each country has the right to defend their land. They dont have modern weapons, but the heart and love for their land its what it counts. Onother long ''war'' for the army thats will set foot on Iranian soil.

:|

I couldn't agree more :|

[Maciek]

Guerilla warfare in a jungle is deadly. Guerilla warfare in the desert is ludicrous.
Depends what you mean by guerilla warfare. Judging by the video I saw, doesn't look much "guerilla" to me. Just conventional forces poncing about the battlefield using outdated tactics.

I think taking Iran will actually be easier than Iraq. We can attack Iran from two sides. Remember Iraq? That was the problem. they knew where we were coming from. Also, carriers can attack from both sides and Iran being big, they'll play a bigger part than in Iraq.
Look at the videos. They have a lot of helos and transporters. Even they know how important these things are. Iran is much bigger than Iraq.

No rivers to cross from either west or east before reaching the capital of Iran.

Tehran in 24 hours, anyone?

What I'm wondering is, where should we go after that? Syria?

CIA:Terrain:

rugged, mountainous rim; high, central basin with deserts, mountains; small, discontinuous plains along both coasts

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/images/iran_rel01-s.jpg
big one
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/images/iran_rel01.jpg

no big rivers to cross, but mountains from 1500 to 3000meters high.

They will be no big units in deserts, they are not stupid

attack from both sides??? iraq and pakistan???or afganistan???turkey???
pakistan and turkey wont help you

easier than Iraq, Tehran in 24 hours??? you are more naive then bush (or more stupid???).

[Danzer]

easier than Iraq, Tehran in 24 hours??? you are more naive then bush (or more stupid???).

Don't worry. He himself will invade Iran, after all he wished for a glorious death on the battlefield. I just hope he doesn't get lost in the desert and dies of old age rofl

[WolverineBlue]

USA would whoop Iran upside the head. Problem is, like it is now in Iraq, the guerilla war. USA is not staffed to take on Iran.

[-=P=-]

What you saw there are mainly Baseji volunteer forces who do their training with RPG and AK.

If there is a war they will go to mountains and attack with their AK's and "Working" RPG's, that’s guerrilla warfare and will provide any invading force with large problems, since everything must be cleared before going on. Such a group equipped with AK's, RPK's, Dragunovs and most importantly RPG's with new warheads will have good chances against support units.

Newer forget what you saw there was not the Iranian Army also not the Air force, only volunteers and fast attack/light units.

The the "clever man" calling stingers obsolete... If the Iraqis would have a large number of Stingers, A-10's, AH-64, AH-1, AC-130 and F-16 could never provide so effective CAS with so less looses. The problem war that the Iraqis had crappy SA-7's from the 70's with a small number of SA-14's their most advanced manpad.

[aartamen]

What would be the point of attacking Iran with ground forces? What can be gained or achieved by that? Iranians will be much better off investing everything they can in AF and SAM's. Iran is surrounded on all sides with countries that the US can be at least potentially friendly. Choke the mullahs.

[obd]

haha, well guys, the Iraqi's didnt have an Air Force and they are kicking our asses pretty good right now for a bunch of "sheep herders and camel jockeys" so I dont really think the Iranians need one to beat us if they use proper guerilla tactics. The NVA didnt have a super great air force and certainly rearely managed to inflict heavy casualties on our men on the ground using aircraft so.............you dont really need an air force to beat the United States, just determination and an understanding of guerilla warfare (and of course popular support and such helps)...........

Dont be vain and think that because we have the F-16 we can crush some little peasant force. IF they are willing to bleed for thier cause more than we are, and if we are not willing to commit genocide to win, than its a hard thing to beat a guerilla force.............

[aartamen]

If the US's goal is to level anything that you have that looks like a potential high-value building than you need an AF, unless you are content to heard camels.

[Digital Marine]

Sheesh... this will be an ugly.. ugly war... if it will come.... :(

[Locked N Loaded]

Short and sweet! There won't be a war with Iran, but there maybe some type of airstrike at some point if needed. I'm sure Iran knows better than to take us on over a nuke issue. This will be worked out without a single shot fired.::::(Just my opinion.)
As far as Iraq, if anyone believes the ROE's won't change after the election...(if Bush wins), then they're out of the loop! Alot will change after the election, both the one in the U.S. and Iraq.
Israel has a stake in Iran too, lets not forget that. What they're planning, if anything is anyones guess, but comparing the "Run to Baghdad" to a "preemptive airstrike on Tehran" is like comparing apples to oranges.
My opinion is it will never come to all this, Iran is not as dumb as they look. And running to the mountains with AK's and RPG's is a long way to run to die. To think we have not learned from the "post war" era in Iraq is crazy! There will be no guerilla tact's needed, just a stop to a Nuke program!
Bottom line, lets hope all works out and Iran does the right thing and comes clean with their Nuke program, like N. Korea better. I'm not looking for a flame, in fact i'm not even checking back to this thread, so keep it clean, give your opinions and remember! It's not a ..."mines bigger than your's situation", and air-support is 70%+ of any war, and Iran is no threat in that catagory!
Lets all pray all works out and OOH-RAH, I SAY THIS WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, not beating my chest and screaming "BRING IT ON!", more like War is a bitch and should be avoided at all costs..... p-)

Respectfully,
L n L

[Danzer]

I'm not looking for a flame, in fact i'm not even checking back to this thread, so keep it clean, give your opinions and remember! It's not a ..."mines bigger than your's situation", and air-support is 70%+ of any war, and Iran is no threat in that catagory!
Lets all pray all works out and OOH-RAH, I SAY THIS WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, not beating my chest and screaming "BRING IT ON!", more like War is a bitch and should be avoided at all costs..... p-)

Respectfully,
L n L

Well that's exactly what most of us here agree on :)

[Novara]

Ok, listen up tards, cos I'll say this only once.

It's clear most of you haven't even served, let alone been in battle.

First of all: the Stinger. the Stinger is 20 years old. In civilian years, it's the same age as Engelbert Humperdinck. That's right, 104.

Who is the person who said the Stinger is "multi-aspect"? You know nada, my friend.
If it's "multi-aspect" and you can fire it at whatever part of the plane/helo you want, then why does it have a 'target acquisition tone'? Yes, that's right. Because it's an IR missile and goes by differentials in heat signature. Many of these missiles will actually fly up the exhaust before detonating. Ever wonder why they fit helos with 2 engines?
As for the range being 1-8 miles....yes, nice of you to make crap up. Thanks. The minimum range is 500 metres. The maximum is approx. 3 miles at most. Which would make it useless against a plane travelling over mach1. You travel a lot of distance at that speed.

As for the other tard who said..."Which 2 sides will the US and allies attack from when they hand Iran it's ass on a plate?". Well, duh, obviously Disneyland and Oz. What do you frigging think? Afghanistan and Iraq. Who's going to object? Abdullah and his 50 goats? FFS...!

Guerilla warfare. Most of you children do not know what it means, let alone have the brains to actually look it up.

Guerilla warfare: War by unconventional means.

Now let's see. In the video clips I saw...what was so frigging unconventional? I saw massed tank brigades poncing about in the sand shouting "I'M HERE, FRIGGING TAKE ME OUT WITH A HELLFIRE!!!!". I saw a ridiculous tank platoon taking turns to fire. Which tells me they don't have the latest target acquisition computers...wonder why the M1A2 makes light work of these bozos? Not to mention even if they could acquire an M1A2, they don't have any freeking SABOTs to take 'em out with. Ceramic armour? What ceramic armour! Not to mention frigging active armour! Then we saw the oh-so-old tactic of hiding in a tank-trench. Yeah ok....with sattelite imagery, A-10's and cluster bombs...peek-a-boo!

As for the "oh so intelligent" person who put Iran with Vietnam. Don't you frigging think there is a frigging difference? You know...like desert and jungle? Vietnam is/was a perfect place for guerilla warfare...in a desert environment...what do you do? Stand still and pretend you're a rock?

What these people are doing in Iraq is not "guerilla warfare". Just plain and simple "terrorism". Funny how for every soldier they hit, 100 civilians die. That's not war...

:roll:

[Novara]

Engelbert Humperdinck

http://www.engelbert.com/images/03%2010.jpg

Stinger missile

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger_01.jpg

Notice the similarity?

[Romulus]

Engelbert Humperdinck

http://www.engelbert.com/images/03%2010.jpg

Stinger missile

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger_01.jpg

Notice the similarity?

rofl rofl

[-=P=-]

@Novara

Ever heard of a gas-cooled IR seeker which can smell the heat of the engine even from the front ?

The range is about 5km against your Hellfire firing Apache and around 3km against a mach 1 fling aircraft...
doubt F-16's will have fuel for mach 1 all the time or A-10's even capable.


Now let's see. In the video clips I saw...what was so frigging unconventional? I saw massed tank brigades poncing about in the sand shouting "I'M HERE, FRIGGING TAKE ME OUT WITH A HELLFIRE!!!!". I saw a ridiculous tank platoon taking turns to fire. Which tells me they don't have the latest target acquisition computers...wonder why the M1A2 makes light work of these bozos? Not to mention even if they could acquire an M1A2, they don't have any freeking SABOTs to take 'em out with. Ceramic armour? What ceramic armour! Not to mention frigging active armour! Then we saw the oh-so-old tactic of hiding in a tank-trench. Yeah ok....with sattelite imagery, A-10's and cluster bombs...peek-a-boo!

If the attack is at an desert these T-72S's will fight in the desert like in the video but these aren’t Iraqi T-72's and if Stingers artillery, CAS, Radar, daylight, ATGM's and BMP-2's are available they can get pretty dangerous for everyone, especially if these is not 100% air supremacy and 100% CAS available and so on.

Iran is a MOUNTAIN country like Afghanistan not a desert one like south Iraq. I want to see M1's and M2's driving trough a mountain pass (1km range visible) middle in the war... in such situation many things can happen and don’t expect only RPG's... Mountain Guerrilla warfare comes into work.

Secondly don’t expect to see much real tactics in such propaganda videos, people like to see large formations; what they really do is rather secret...


What these people are doing in Iraq is not "guerilla warfare". Just plain and simple "terrorism". Funny how for every soldier they hit, 100 civilians die. That's not war...

I agree what you saw until now in Iraq is nothing I would even call the situation relative stabile.

[aartamen]

What are those grilles on Stinger for?

If Iranians do exactly the same thing the Iraqis are doing, whatever you call it, it's not going to be pretty to try and occupy Iran. Iraq practically quaranteed that the US will not try and occupy another country for at least a generation.

[aartamen]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm

According to the above Stinger IS an all aspect weapon. The very first would hit incoming AC in 30% of the cases and that was bad. It has been perfected since. Another rather surprising bit of info - it cost 6 million per, more now in all likelyhood.
Oh, and the ceiling is 3km.

[Locked N Loaded]

Ok, listen up tards, cos I'll say this only once.

It's clear most of you haven't even served, let alone been in battle.

First of all: the Stinger. the Stinger is 20 years old. In civilian years, it's the same age as Engelbert Humperdinck. That's right, 104.

Who is the person who said the Stinger is "multi-aspect"? You know nada, my friend.
If it's "multi-aspect" and you can fire it at whatever part of the plane/helo you want, then why does it have a 'target acquisition tone'? Yes, that's right. Because it's an IR missile and goes by differentials in heat signature. Many of these missiles will actually fly up the exhaust before detonating. Ever wonder why they fit helos with 2 engines?
As for the range being 1-8 miles....yes, nice of you to make crap up. Thanks. The minimum range is 500 metres. The maximum is approx. 3 miles at most. Which would make it useless against a plane travelling over mach1. You travel a lot of distance at that speed.

As for the other tard who said..."Which 2 sides will the US and allies attack from when they hand Iran it's ass on a plate?". Well, duh, obviously Disneyland and Oz. What do you frigging think? Afghanistan and Iraq. Who's going to object? Abdullah and his 50 goats? FFS...!

Guerilla warfare. Most of you children do not know what it means, let alone have the brains to actually look it up.

Guerilla warfare: War by unconventional means.

Now let's see. In the video clips I saw...what was so frigging unconventional? I saw massed tank brigades poncing about in the sand shouting "I'M HERE, FRIGGING TAKE ME OUT WITH A HELLFIRE!!!!". I saw a ridiculous tank platoon taking turns to fire. Which tells me they don't have the latest target acquisition computers...wonder why the M1A2 makes light work of these bozos? Not to mention even if they could acquire an M1A2, they don't have any freeking SABOTs to take 'em out with. Ceramic armour? What ceramic armour! Not to mention frigging active armour! Then we saw the oh-so-old tactic of hiding in a tank-trench. Yeah ok....with sattelite imagery, A-10's and cluster bombs...peek-a-boo!

As for the "oh so intelligent" person who put Iran with Vietnam. Don't you frigging think there is a frigging difference? You know...like desert and jungle? Vietnam is/was a perfect place for guerilla warfare...in a desert environment...what do you do? Stand still and pretend you're a rock?

What these people are doing in Iraq is not "guerilla warfare". Just plain and simple "terrorism". Funny how for every soldier they hit, 100 civilians die. That's not war...

:roll:
The least you can do for someone throwing the word TARD out there is to specify who the TARDS are? I know it's not me pal.

L n L

[Felix]

Invading from Afghanistan is an absolutely ridiculous notion. The part of Afghanistan that borders Iran is an area in which we have absolutely **** **** power, and where Ismael Khan, an IRANIAN lackey, is sitting it tight, taking his orders from Tehran and getting shipments of weapons from Iranian Intelligence. If the US were to try mount up to attack Iraq from here, not only would the logistical problems be horrific, but Ismael Khans people would start fighting the Americans as well, under Iranian direction.

[moughoun]

What are those grilles on Stinger for?

If Iranians do exactly the same thing the Iraqis are doing, whatever you call it, it's not going to be pretty to try and occupy Iran. Iraq practically quaranteed that the US will not try and occupy another country for at least a generation.

IFF ;)

[Nizark]

Before anyone else starts drooling over another middle east war, we should take into consideration that Iran carries out these military excercises every time the IAEA has to make a ruling on the Iranian nuclear issue. This is nothing more than Iran puffing out its chest.

[Novara]

@-=P=-


Ever heard of a gas-cooled IR seeker which can smell the heat of the engine even from the front ?

How can the Stinger smell something without nostrils? And what does heat smell of, anyway? :lol:

The F16 can reach mach 1.9 with afterburner/pre-heat. The missile wouldn't stand a chance...know how long it takes to cover 3km at mach 1.9? Not very long! Oh and refueling? Ever heard of inflight refueling? They can top up before, during and after a mission in most cases. ;)


Iran is a MOUNTAIN country like Afghanistan not a desert one like south Iraq. I want to see M1's and M2's driving trough a mountain pass (1km range visible) middle in the war... in such situation many things can happen and don’t expect only RPG's... Mountain Guerrilla warfare comes into work.


Ever heard of JSTARS? Every Iranian infantryman who so much as breaks wind, they know about in advance. Let alone T72 movements. You need to learn a lot about the modern battlefield, my friend.


Secondly don’t expect to see much real tactics in such propaganda videos, people like to see large formations; what they really do is rather secret...


Is it "rather" secret, is it? So how would you know? I'm sure the NSA with their recon satellites and birds know about these "rather secret" movements. Unless they do it behind closed doors using toy tanks and toy soldiers....I wouldn't be surprised. p-)

At the end of the day, you're talking about armies (NATO) which have trained to combat forces as formidable as the ex-Soviet and Warsaw Pact. If we can't defeat a bunch of camel-riding nomads.... ;)

[moughoun]

@-=P=-

[quote]

[quote]Iran is a MOUNTAIN country like Afghanistan not a desert one like south Iraq. I want to see M1's and M2's driving trough a mountain pass (1km range visible) middle in the war... in such situation many things can happen and don’t expect only RPG's... Mountain Guerrilla warfare comes into work.


Ever heard of JSTARS? Every Iranian infantryman who so much as breaks wind, they know about in advance. Let alone T72 movements. You need to learn a lot about the modern battlefield, my friend.

quote]

JSTARS doesn't work too well in mountainous enviroment's too much ground clutter, but being an expert you already knew that ;) and Stinger's are extreme low altitude manpad's for anti helo and CAS killing the Iranian's do have longer range system's ;)

[MEGR]

I like this Novara guy.

[Roktiken]

The Stinger has a maximum range of 8km's.

But the Stinger isnt what I would be worried about.

The Iranian's more than likely have been supplied with a bucket load of Russian weaponry including from what I have heard and read including Vikhr's, Khrizantema's, and Kornet's all of which could turn any American armor including Abrams into nothing more than melted piles of metal and debris.

[soma]

Do they even realise how stupid it all looks? It's nice seeing them run in formation like schoolgirls and an obselete Russian tank being loaded onto an Antonov transporter. But how much of that will survive the initial air campaign?
Don't these goat herders realise that without an airforce, you've got about as much chance of winning a war as Steven Seagal has winning an Oscar.

:roll:

Iran, no airforce? Wow ;)

[Roktiken]

For some reason Americans have a hard time realizing that they're government supplied the Iranians heavily with US equipment including aircraft.

F-4's, F-5's, F-14's, Phoenix Missiles, sidewinders, AARAMS, Stingers, Targeting and ECM. And before the revolution the Shah had made a deal with the US government to buy up to 50 F-18's and production rights to build the F-15, the US government was going to build the factories and give the mechanical equipment to build the actual aircraft.

[Novara]

from Roktiken:


The Iranian's more than likely have been supplied with a bucket load of Russian weaponry...

You're right. Unfortunately it was from the bargain bucket... :lol:

from Soma


Iran, no airforce? Wow

Yes. Airforce include things that actually fly.

from Roktiken


F-4's, F-5's, F-14's, Phoenix Missiles, sidewinders, AARAMS, Stingers, Targeting and ECM. And before the revolution the Shah had made a deal with the US government to buy up to 50 F-18's and production rights to build the F-15, the US government was going to build the factories and give the mechanical equipment to build the actual aircraft.

F4 Phantoms are about as modern as a steam powered lavatory. And just as us useful.
F5s are considered advanced trainers in most modern countries...and chicken pens in others.
F14s!!?? Oh yeah...hmmm...forgot about the Iranian nuclear powered aircraft carriers. :roll: F14's? you are dreaming my friend....
F18??? Do you know when the Shah "left" Iran? It was the late 70's. So unless the Iranians was given the F18 prototype, I doubt it very much! sir.
F15? Nah....

I think the only American planes Iran have are the P51 Mustangs.

from moughoun:


JSTARS doesn't work too well in mountainous enviroment's too much ground clutter, but being an expert you already knew that

When JSTARS doesn't work...they send in Mr. McNab. ;)

[Novara]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

[Roktiken]

from Roktiken:


The Iranian's more than likely have been supplied with a bucket load of Russian weaponry...

You're right. Unfortunately it was from the bargain bucket... :lol:

from Soma


Iran, no airforce? Wow

Yes. Airforce include things that actually fly.

from Roktiken


F-4's, F-5's, F-14's, Phoenix Missiles, sidewinders, AARAMS, Stingers, Targeting and ECM. And before the revolution the Shah had made a deal with the US government to buy up to 50 F-18's and production rights to build the F-15, the US government was going to build the factories and give the mechanical equipment to build the actual aircraft.

F4 Phantoms are about as modern as a steam powered lavatory. And just as us useful.
F5s are considered advanced trainers in most modern countries...and chicken pens in others.
F14s!!?? Oh yeah...hmmm...forgot about the Iranian nuclear powered aircraft carriers. :roll: F14's? you are dreaming my friend....
F18??? Do you know when the Shah "left" Iran? It was the late 70's. So unless the Iranians was given the F18 prototype, I doubt it very much! sir.
F15? Nah....

I think the only American planes Iran have are the P51 Mustangs.

from moughoun:


JSTARS doesn't work too well in mountainous enviroment's too much ground clutter, but being an expert you already knew that

When JSTARS doesn't work...they send in Mr. McNab. ;)

Have you even researched the subject? Or are you just speaking out of you're @$$?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce.htm

And Bargain bin? Dude, Corrupt Russian generals are constantly selling Russian weapons and weapon designs to China, Iran, and just about anyone else with money. Hell the government sells it legitametly.

[Roktiken]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

:cantbeli:

[moughoun]

@Novara, no not Andy, he'll win the war in 2 day's, no fun :(

[Roktiken]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

I think any variant of the F-14 especially if armed with Phoenix missiles and AARAMS is preatty deadly. Yes the Iranian airforce has had to downsize their F-14 fleet but no where near the ammount the US claims it to be.

[n4292936]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

:cantbeli:
Those planes are remnants of the Shah's fleet which was entirely supplied by the US after the CIA inspired coup overthrew the democratically elected government.
Since the Shah was deposed the US obviously cut off access to replacement parts so Iran has succesfully developed an ability to both service and replace the parts of the f-14s to keep them running. Iran is also still in possesion of a large number of fighter aircraft that Saddam transported there for safe keeping during the first Gulf War.

[Novara]

Rokriken wrote:

Have you even researched the subject? Or are you just speaking out of you're @$$?

Have you read it?

Here are just snippets:


The shah's air force had more than 450 modern combat aircraft

The Shah left in 1979. So they had 450 (which isn't much) "modern" aircraft....yes modern 25 years ago.


...was (in 1979) by far the most advanced of the three services and among the most impressive air forces in the developing world.

Key words: 1979, developing, world.


...but it seems that by 1987 a fairly large number of aircraft had been cannibalized for spare parts.

Oh yeah. That's right. Iran have been under an arms embargo for almost 25 years. Is that why they cannibilize their aircraft? Wow! an F14 with Phantom left wing, an F5 right wing and the tail of a Boeing 737! No need to shoot me out of the sky...I'd die from laughter! :roll:


By 1986 desertions and depletions led to a reorganization of the air force

No comment....


Some seventy-six helicopters and five surface-to-air missile (SAM) squadrons supplemented this capability.


hehe....


Before the end of his reign, the shah placed orders for F-16 fighters and even contemplated the sharing of development costs for the United States Navy's new F-18 fighter. Both of these combat aircraft have been dropped from the revolutionary regime's military acquisitions list, however.


They have F18s do they? hmmmm...


By 1987, however, the air force faced an acute shortage of spare parts and replacement equipment. Perhaps 35 of the 190 Phantoms were serviceable in 1986. One F-4 had been shot down by Saudi F-15s, and two pilots had defected to Iraq with their F-4s in 1984. The number of F-5s dwindled from 166 to perhaps 45, and the F-14 Tomcats from 77 to perhaps 10. The latter were hardest hit because maintenance posed special difficulties after the United States embargo on military sales.

Doesn't sound a very formidable airforce to me....they have 10 F14s which are operational.

thanks for the laugh...I needed it!

[moughoun]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

:cantbeli:
Those planes are remnants of the Shah's fleet which was entirely supplied by the US after the CIA inspired coup overthrew the democratically elected government.
Since the Shah was deposed the US obviously cut off access to replacement parts so Iran has succesfully developed an ability to both service and replace the parts of the f-14s to keep them running. Iran is also still in possesion of a large number of fighter aircraft that Saddam transported there for safe keeping during the first Gulf War.

Plus they got a top up of spares from Isreal and during Iran-contra

[Novara]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

:cantbeli:
Those planes are remnants of the Shah's fleet which was entirely supplied by the US after the CIA inspired coup overthrew the democratically elected government.
Since the Shah was deposed the US obviously cut off access to replacement parts so Iran has succesfully developed an ability to both service and replace the parts of the f-14s to keep them running. Iran is also still in possesion of a large number of fighter aircraft that Saddam transported there for safe keeping during the first Gulf War.

Yeah...and I wonder why he hid those planes, which included Mig 29s. Speaking of which. Mig 29s are far better than any ancient cannibilized F14s, yet they lost against the likes of the US F16s, F18s and not to mention the F15 which has a kill ratio of 100+:0. That's right, the F15 is the only plane never to have lost a dogfight.

one F15 could take the whole of Iran by itself I'm willing to bet. ;)

[Roktiken]

ok...I correct myself. Iran does have F14s. Thanks Google. :roll:

But they are the crappy kind!

:cantbeli:
Those planes are remnants of the Shah's fleet which was entirely supplied by the US after the CIA inspired coup overthrew the democratically elected government.
Since the Shah was deposed the US obviously cut off access to replacement parts so Iran has succesfully developed an ability to both service and replace the parts of the f-14s to keep them running. Iran is also still in possesion of a large number of fighter aircraft that Saddam transported there for safe keeping during the first Gulf War.

Yeah...and I wonder why he hid those planes, which included Mig 29s. Speaking of which. Mig 29s are far better than any ancient cannibilized F14s, yet they lost against the likes of the US F16s, F18s and not to mention the F15 which has a kill ratio of 100+:0. That's right, the F15 is the only plane never to have lost a dogfight.

one F15 could take the whole of Iran by itself I'm willing to bet. ;)

I never said they had F-18's I said the Shah had enquired about them. and was going to get them if the revolution had not happened.

That article has information only up to 1986-87, that information is 17 years old. Since then the Iranian air force has replenished it's spare part reserves with backward engineerd Parts and equipment. Sure their F-14 and F-4 fleets are far from modern now but atleast they have a good portion of them in the air or atleast ready to go fly.

And you're comment on the F-15....

The F-15 only has a flawless victory record because it's gone up against airforces with soviet aircraft that is two...three...four decades old with hardly any new modern equipment and spare parts and pilots that are ill-trained.

Now if for example the F-15 was to go up against a modern airforce such as the PLAF, RFAF, and to an extent... the KPAAF it's record would be crushed severely.

I would love to see an F-15 go up against an Su-27.

[Novara]

I never said they had F-18's I said the Shah had enquired about them. and was going to get them if the revolution had not happened.

That article has information only up to 1986-87, that information is 17 years old. Since then the Iranian air force has replenished it's spare part reserves with backward engineerd Parts and equipment. Sure their F-14 and F-4 fleets are far from modern now but atleast they have a good portion of them in the air or atleast ready to go fly.

And you're comment on the F-15....

The F-15 only has a flawless victory record because it's gone up against airforces with soviet aircraft that is two...three...four decades old with hardly any new modern equipment and spare parts and pilots that are ill-trained.

Now if for example the F-15 was to go up against a modern airforce such as the PLAF, RFAF, and to an extent... the KPAAF it's record would be crushed severely.

I would love to see an F-15 go up against an Su-27.

Oh ok. Iran "enquired" about them.
I enquired about a Ferrari the other day....then got back into my clapped out old Escort, and headed for Reality, taking a sharp left at "No Fooking Relevance With The Argument Whatsoever" Street.

How do you know which aircraft the F15 has been pitched against? I am pretty sure it has come across some SU-27. For sure it's come across some Mig 29 and they aren't "3 or 4 decades old" by any means. I think the F15 is actually older. If you want to pitch like-with-like, let's pitch the SU-27/35 against the F22. ;)

Just admit it...the Iraqi airforce will be decimated with no loss on the US/allies side. They have 10 old, cannibilized F14's for Gods sake! Oh yeah...and the F4s to do the shopping in. :roll:

[Novara]

This is an interesting link:

http://www.topfighters.com/f-15_gen_info.php?id=2

I've quoted the most interesting part:


Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.

The SU-35 is better than a SU27, agreed? Well, the SU35 would beat an F15 in a fair fight, but then again, the F15 is a much older plane.
The SU35 would lose against the Eurofighter though (4.5 SU35 being shot down for every Typhoon) and would do badly agaiinst the F22 (10 SU35 shot down for every F22) which isn't surprising considering the F22 has stealth capabilities and vector thrusting etc...

[Roktiken]

I never said they had F-18's I said the Shah had enquired about them. and was going to get them if the revolution had not happened.

That article has information only up to 1986-87, that information is 17 years old. Since then the Iranian air force has replenished it's spare part reserves with backward engineerd Parts and equipment. Sure their F-14 and F-4 fleets are far from modern now but atleast they have a good portion of them in the air or atleast ready to go fly.

And you're comment on the F-15....

The F-15 only has a flawless victory record because it's gone up against airforces with soviet aircraft that is two...three...four decades old with hardly any new modern equipment and spare parts and pilots that are ill-trained.

Now if for example the F-15 was to go up against a modern airforce such as the PLAF, RFAF, and to an extent... the KPAAF it's record would be crushed severely.

I would love to see an F-15 go up against an Su-27.

Oh ok. Iran "enquired" about them.
I enquired about a Ferrari the other day....then got back into my clapped out old Escort, and headed for Reality, taking a sharp left at "No Fooking Relevance With The Argument Whatsoever" Street.

How do you know which aircraft the F15 has been pitched against? I am pretty sure it has come across some SU-27. For sure it's come across some Mig 29 and they aren't "3 or 4 decades old" by any means. I think the F15 is actually older. If you want to pitch like-with-like, let's pitch the SU-27/35 against the F22. ;)

Just admit it...the Iraqi airforce will be decimated with no loss on the US/allies side. They have 10 old, cannibilized F14's for Gods sake! Oh yeah...and the F4s to do the shopping in. :roll:

This list includes what the Iraqi airforce had following Desert Storm.

15 MiG-29 ground-attack aircraft
30 Mirage F1 ground-attack aircraft
50 MiG-23 multi-role fighters
20 Su-25 ground-attack aircraft
30 Su-20/-22 ground-attack aircraft
7 Tu-16 and B-6D bombers
10 Tu-22 supersonic bombers

I dont see any Su-27's, the Soviet's wouldent of sold what at the time was quite easily the most powerful Fighter/bomber in the world to the Iraqi airforce only to let it be backward engineerd and then sold on the black market.

The Mig-29 the Iraqi Airforce was using was hardly of the same caliber of that the Soviet's/Russian's use(d). The only countries which I know of that have been sold Su-27's is China (Who now owns the rights to produce the Su-27 and it's variants), Vietnam, North Korea, The Ukraine, Belarus, and India (this year I think they are purchasing and recieving several SU-27's)

You're comment on the su-27 going up against the F-22 is just stupid, considering they're are only a couple of F-22 raptors, where in which they're are a few hundred Su-27's...plus the F-22 raptor will never be put into full production anyways due to it's outrageous price and and hatred congress seems to have for it as it will fill up the military budget. Oh and wasent the F-22 supposed to be in full production in '96..then '98...then'02....then this year and has again been set back to '06 now.

And I will admitt that the US will decimate the Iraqi airforce...cause using the power of history...it already has :cantbeli:

[Novara]

This list includes what the Iraqi airforce had following Desert Storm.

15 MiG-29 ground-attack aircraft
30 Mirage F1 ground-attack aircraft
50 MiG-23 multi-role fighters
20 Su-25 ground-attack aircraft
30 Su-20/-22 ground-attack aircraft
7 Tu-16 and B-6D bombers
10 Tu-22 supersonic bombers

I dont see any Su-27's, the Soviet's wouldent of sold what at the time was quite easily the most powerful Fighter/bomber in the world to the Iraqi airforce only to let it be backward engineerd and then sold on the black market.

The Mig-29 the Iraqi Airforce was using was hardly of the same caliber of that the Soviet's/Russian's use(d). The only countries which I know of that have been sold Su-27's is China (Who now owns the rights to produce the Su-27 and it's variants), Vietnam, North Korea, The Ukraine, Belarus, and India (this year I think they are purchasing and recieving several SU-27's)

You're comment on the su-27 going up against the F-22 is just stupid, considering they're are only a couple of F-22 raptors, where in which they're are a few hundred Su-27's...plus the F-22 raptor will never be put into full production anyways due to it's outrageous price and and hatred congress seems to have for it as it will fill up the military budget. Oh and wasent the F-22 supposed to be in full production in '96..then '98...then'02....then this year and has again been set back to '06 now.

And I will admitt that the US will decimate the Iraqi airforce...cause using hte power of history...it already has :cantbeli:

Your list is following Desert Storm. How do we know they weren't all shot down during Desert Storm and that's why they aren't on the list? ;)

The F22...please stop making stuff up. There isn't a "couple" of F22 in service. There are 80 to be exact. Production did commence but in reduced numbers. 300 will be produced in total instead of the original 800 or so. You're talking to someone who attends many airshows. ;)
Speaking of which....have you heard of the F/A18 Super-Hornet?hmmm...

Look at the link I put up before. If the F15C just about loses with the SU35 which is better than the SU27, I think the F15 could easily match an SU27.

[Roktiken]

by reading this site here, I can tell the Iraqi airforce never had su-27's
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/agency/af.htm

And they're are 76 in total that have built...now tell me how many of those if any..are in active combat squadrens and have been used in combat. ...What was that..oh yes I thought I heard the number ZERO

[Novara]

by reading this site here, I can tell the Iraqi airforce never had su-27's
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/agency/af.htm

And they're are 76 in total that have built...now tell me how many of those if any..are in active combat squadrens and have been used in combat. ...What was that..oh yes I thought I heard the number ZERO

The first active squadron will be up and running next year. And 76 is near enough 80, don't you think? :roll:

Just because that report doesn't mention SU27s, doesn't exactly mean Iraq didn't have any.

[moughoun]

by reading this site here, I can tell the Iraqi airforce never had su-27's
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/agency/af.htm

And they're are 76 in total that have built...now tell me how many of those if any..are in active combat squadrens and have been used in combat. ...What was that..oh yes I thought I heard the number ZERO

The first active squadron will be up and running next year. And 76 is near enough 80, don't you think? :roll:

Just because that report doesn't mention SU27s, doesn't exactly mean Iraq didn't have any.
Iraq didn't have su-27s, they were never found, shot down, escaped, or buried

[Novara]

by reading this site here, I can tell the Iraqi airforce never had su-27's
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/agency/af.htm

And they're are 76 in total that have built...now tell me how many of those if any..are in active combat squadrens and have been used in combat. ...What was that..oh yes I thought I heard the number ZERO

The first active squadron will be up and running next year. And 76 is near enough 80, don't you think? :roll:

Just because that report doesn't mention SU27s, doesn't exactly mean Iraq didn't have any.
Iraq didn't have su-27s, they were never found, shot down, escaped, or buried

How about exported? You didn't mention exported.

Here you go Mr. Moosharaf, some SU27s at a bargain price.

;)

[Roktiken]

okay, until you can find me an article saying they did get Su-27's this conversastion is at rest......Iraq never had Su-27's

[MEGR]

Oh yeah. That's right. Iran have been under an arms embargo for almost 25 years. Is that why they cannibilize their aircraft? Wow! an F14 with Phantom left wing, an F5 right wing and the tail of a Boeing 737! No need to shoot me out of the sky...I'd die from laughter!

Best quote ever!

[Roktiken]

? Arms embargo ? That really stopped the US from giving Iran arms and supplies, oh and it's really stopping Russia and corrupt Russian Generals from supplying the Iranians :bash:

[Danzer]

It's clear most of you haven't even served, let alone been in battle.
So far no credentials or even your location from you after repeated requests.
Don’t say opsec because we both know that’s BS



First of all: the Stinger. the Stinger is 20 years old. In civilian years, it's the same age as Engelbert Humperdinck. That's right, 104.
Ever heard of a little thingy called RPG? The RPG-7 for example has been around for since 1962




Who is the person who said the Stinger is "multi-aspect"? You know nada, my friend.
If it's "multi-aspect" and you can fire it at whatever part of the plane/helo you want, then why does it have a 'target acquisition tone'? Yes, that's right. Because it's an IR missile and goes by differentials in heat signature. Many of these missiles will actually fly up the exhaust before detonating. Ever wonder why they fit helos with 2 engines?
As for the range being 1-8 miles....yes, nice of you to make crap up. Thanks. The minimum range is 500 metres. The maximum is approx. 3 miles at most. Which would make it useless against a plane travelling over mach1. You travel a lot of distance at that speed.

That was me. And of course you being an expert on weaponssystems already know that a missile coming at you with a speed of mach2 is not a threat.
Ah the famous tone and cheekrattle. Ever aimed a stinger? My guess would be..No..



Guerilla warfare. Most of you children do not know what it means, let alone have the brains to actually look it up.

Guerilla warfare: War by unconventional means.

Wrong again. *sigh*




As for the "oh so intelligent" person who put Iran with Vietnam. Don't you frigging think there is a frigging difference? You know...like desert and jungle? Vietnam is/was a perfect place for guerilla warfare...in a desert environment...what do you do? Stand still and pretend you're a rock?

You’ll make a hell of an S2




Ever heard of JSTARS? Every Iranian infantryman who so much as breaks wind, they know about in advance. Let alone T72 movements. You need to learn a lot about the modern battlefield, my friend.


So do you, because JSTARS MTI cannot detect infantry.

[-=P=-]

No time so I only put this picture in:

http://www.iranexporters.org/ecatalogue/machin/military/aeghe2.jpg

I think it will be very usefull in the mountains against M1 and M2 from side and rear :roll:


Ah and some say Iran is supporting Iraqis, I'd say if Iran delivers some of those missiles you can call it Iranian support ;)

[-=P=-]

@Novara


How can the Stinger smell something without nostrils? And what does heat smell of, anyway?

All aspect boy, all aspect say what you want its still alllll the way aspect.

Here you go

http://www.iranexporters.org/ecatalogue/machin/military/misagh-1.jpg


The F16 can reach mach 1.9 with afterburner/pre-heat. The missile wouldn't stand a chance...know how long it takes to cover 3km at mach 1.9? Not very long! Oh and refueling? Ever heard of inflight refueling? They can top up before, during and after a mission in most cases.

They normally don’t do CAS with mach 1.9, nor do they fly even 10% of the mission near mach 1 that’s the point...


Ever heard of JSTARS? Every Iranian infantryman who so much as breaks wind, they know about in advance. Let alone T72 movements. You need to learn a lot about the modern battlefield, my friend.

Ok but one can use them only after the Iranian Air force and all air defence is destroyed, that would take some time, in this time Iran will be already invading some of the countrys which did take part on this attack so that US ground force would mabe get the order to drive into Iran without full air supermancy and in such a situation the fat J-STARS and AWACS must baaack-off several hundert km's.

With no J-STARS and in mountains we will see if T-72S's and the stuffs will not be useful against some objects...


Is it "rather" secret, is it? So how would you know? I'm sure the NSA with their recon satellites and birds know about these "rather secret" movements. Unless they do it behind closed doors using toy tanks and toy soldiers....I wouldn't be surprised.

I didn’t say the US know nothing I did say what you have seen is nothing ;)

[Novara]

I can stay here all day shooting your arguments out of the sky. But to be honest, I have better things to do.

@Danzer:

Why don't you post your credentials before asking mine? There are other reasons why I may not want to divulge my military past apart from OPSEC.
I'll tell you one thing, if you serve at the present time, you must be in boot camp. Cause your arguments show a lack of any military insight and knowledgde. For example...


...because JSTARS MTI cannot detect infantry.

All regular infantry now move in APCs or other vehicles. JSTARS can't detect infantry, but can detect an APC or vehicle. :roll:

And guerilla warfare does stand for "War by unconventional means". That's the official definition. Look it up in a dictionary. :roll:

I could go on and on....but you people are too wrapped up in your own fantasies to look at reality. So you really believe Iran can win a conventional war with the US and it's allies with 10 F14s, a few stingers and a brigade of T72s? There's one born every minute...

[Danzer]

Oh i'll send my cred's to Hood or any other mod asking for it, no prob at all.

Well i guess i have to stop here. Not much sense anyway. Keep on posting the "facts" as you see them, i'm done arguing :|

[-=P=-]

You can do nothin Novara thats the point and you proved it ;) :bash:

[Novara]

I went to the trouble of uploading one of my army docs.

Here are my credentials....where are yours?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/832123/1.jpg

[-=P=-]

Alone that you think that serving anywhere means you know anything advanced about military, shows how ... you are.

Do you think as a soldier you know everything about every system ?

Have you worked with the Stinger ? Have you worked with the JSTAR ?

Its cool that you scanned something but do you think it makes you more serious in trying to talk about Stingers ?

Nobody said Iran would win against America so stop making going further down with talking about things about which you have not the slightest clue.

[moughoun]

I went to the trouble of uploading one of my army docs.

Here are my credentials....where are yours?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/832123/1.jpg
Italian?

[Novara]

Yes...the document is Italian. I'm not.

[moughoun]

Yes...the document is Italian. I'm not.
That's what I meant ;)

[Scrim]

Ok, the Stinger is not obsolete, espesially the newer RMP Stinger we use today which tracks with IR and or NUV (yeah yeah the rags have the older one). IR tracks on the engines, NUV tracks on the nose.

The range is suposedly classified, so a google search brings up all kinds of ****, but its closer to 6km.
The sights have considerable lead, either left, right or centered. And you do not fire at an outgoing fastmover, its to late. It also has CCMs to counter the aircrafts CMs.
At least thats what they taught us at Stinger school, but what would I know?