Israel admits training elite US forces

[2RHPZ]

Israel admits training elite US forces

By Richard Beeston
August 19, 2004

Urban warfare tactics used in the Gaza Strip are being translated to Iraq

US FORCES fighting in Iraq have been accused of secretly training in Israel, where they have been taught tactics used over the past four years against Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

A senior Israeli military expert confirmed that elite American troops were regularly trained in Israel.

Tal Tovy, an expert in guerrilla warfare who teaches at Israel’s military staff college, said that US Marines and Army Rangers frequently visited the country on exercise and there was close co-operation on tactics.

He was speaking after The Jerusalem Post reported that some American soldiers serving in Iraq have been trained at the counter-terrorism school in the Adam military base, near Modi’in, outside Jerusalem.

The Israeli Defence Force declined to comment yesterday about co-operation with foreign forces. The American Embassy in Tel Aviv said that from time to time the two countries did conduct joint exercises but denied that there were US forces in Israel at present.

Nevertheless, the allegation will fuel growing suspicions in the Arab world that the Israelis are secretly involved in assisting the Americans in Iraq. The tactics of the two countries’ Armed Forces are regularly compared to each other on Arab news channels and in newspapers across the Middle East. this year Brigadier-General Janis Karpinski, the senior American officer embroiled in the scandal about the mistreatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison, said that she had met an Israeli interrogator at an intelligence base in Baghdad.

The American press suggested that Israeli intelligence officers had established a permanent presence in the northern Kurdish region of Iraq.

It has been repeatedly alleged that US commanders have studied and adopted Israeli tactics, particularly the use of air power and armour against insurgents concealed in heavily populated areas.

Many in the Arab world believe Israel was behind the invasion of Iraq. Among Israelis, however, it is a matter of pride that they are able to share their expertise with their closest ally.

The Israelis are building what is being touted as the largest urban warfare training base in the world at Tzeelim, in the Negev desert, and have offered to rent it out for training to foreign troops.

Dr Tovy told The Times: “We are very experienced in guerrilla warfare. There are three areas that the Americans have shown particular interest in: the use of Apache helicopters for targeted killings; urban warfare; and how to conduct large military operations in heavily populated areas. We have a lot of experience in this field.”

Dr Tovy said that when he visited the American military academy at West Point he was closely questioned by officers about Israel’s controversial Operation Defensive Shield, the offensive into the West Bank launched in 2002.

Israel’s military tactics, including use of guided missiles to assassinate militant leaders in Gaza and the use of heavy armour in built-up areas, appear to have been replicated by the Americans in Iraq. US fighter jets and helicopter gunships have been used repeatedly to kill suspected militant leaders in the rebel stronghold of Fallujah, west of Baghdad.

Like Israel, America has used tanks and helicopters in densely populated areas such as Sadr City in Baghdad, and now the holy city of Najaf, to take on rebel gunmen. Deploying heavy armour causes civilian casualties but reduces the risk of injury to soldiers.

Using Israeli-style tactics has not only caused anger in the Arab and Muslim worlds. It has also created strains in relations with the British, who have adopted a far less confrontational approach in their sector of southern Iraq.

A British military source said: “There have been disagreements between American and British commanders in Iraq over tactics. That is one reason the British never went to Baghdad and why the offer to send British troops to Najaf was never taken up.”

British forces have focused on maintaining good relations with the local communities in an attempt to isolate the insurgents. The British tactic has come in for private criticism from American officers and some Iraqis, who have accused the British forces of being too soft. They claim that the failure of the British to impose their authority has created a power vacuum in southern cities such as Basra and al-Amarah that has been exploited by Muslim militants, insurgents and ordinary criminals.

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,1-1222601,00.html)

[PJ]

good, our guys need to get all the training they can, to many are dying over there

[UoUo]

Great.

I hope things will get better for the Americans in the war on terror.

[usa320]

US FORCES fighting in Iraq have been accused of secretly training in Israel

OH MY LORD!

What a horrible thing to be accused of!

:roll:

[Khabbi]

I dont see a problem , I dont even see why this would be a big deal , or even a deal , wtf ? :|

[scm77]

I accuse the Americans of training with British forces. OMG!!!

[Kitsune]

But for the Arabs, it is a problem. Americans and British may be disliked...but the Israelis are HATED. Therefore emphazising the bond with them can make things more difficult for the American soldiers in Iraq. So better be quite about this.

[PJ]

isreal is part of NATO correct?

[scm77]

Incorrect

[Javehn]

Well , now I can say some of the people I know trained with US marines , with some MEU or something like that ...
Let's say the things they tolled me about US marines ... I will not tell what impression the guys recieved , but let's say it wasn't exactly on the best side , or kind word . And it shows in Iraq . US troops are useing IDF tactics in incorrect way . And later the world is accusing us and USA for using Israeli tactics that only kill and bring suffery to people .
Even more , instead of using IDF model in Iraq, British model is much more usefull (well , not on this point of time anymore) .

[Pooga]

Great. Just what I wanted to hear. Us learning from someone else because apparently we didn't know what we were doing before. :(

[Moledet]

Great. Just what I wanted to hear. Us learning from someone else because apparently we didn't know what we were doing before. :(
You can learn it by yourself, but you'll pay the price that we payed, many dead/wounded soldiers.

[Pooga]

You can learn it by yourself, but you'll pay the price that we payed, many dead/wounded soldiers.

No, my point is that we didn't do this before, either through crazy training or I spose "working" with other nations.

[sheroo]

Its high time there be more cross-training among countries who have been fighting terrorists. Unfortunately there is always politics involved where political motives outplay other motives. Information sharing has become extremely difficult for that reason. Example. Support for Pakistan inspite of its intelligence having direct links to AQ and taliban etc.

Remains to be seen if Mushiee can truly deliver.

on a different note maybe we should start a list of countries which have been fighting terrorists for many years now. feel free to add to it

Country Years
Israel 50+
India 50+
USA not sure when it started
UK
France
Russia
Germany
Sri Lanka

[VorpalDoom]

we started fighting terrorism in 1985.



my question is... whats wrong with training with people who know thier ****?
If i recall, there was a joint training operation with russia... so what? they're good.

"secrets" by many people standards are simply something like

"well, ****, nobody asked, so we didnt say anything."
;)

[MEGR]

Dun Dun Dun.

[StarvingStudent47]

US FORCES fighting in Iraq have been accused of secretly training in Israel

OH MY LORD!

What a horrible thing to be accused of!

:roll:

But let's not confine ourselves to one particular part of the world here. It's not just dastardly and against international law that US forces are training in Israel. According to UN Resolution BFG-1234, they shouldn't be training AT ALL! I find it shocking that this sort of thing is still conducted in modern times by a so-called "civilized" country. We should have gotten rid of Parris Island when we got rid of Manzanar Internment Camp.

[stuntman]

we started fighting terrorism in 1985.

We actually started fighting terrorism since 1801 with the rescuing of US hostages and regime change of Tripoli!

[Midav]

Well , now I can say some of the people I know trained with US marines , with some MEU or something like that ...
Let's say the things they tolled me about US marines ... I will not tell what impression the guys recieved , but let's say it wasn't exactly on the best side , or kind word . And it shows in Iraq . US troops are useing IDF tactics in incorrect way . And later the world is accusing us and USA for using Israeli tactics that only kill and bring suffery to people .
Even more , instead of using IDF model in Iraq, British model is much more usefull (well , not on this point of time anymore) .

That doesn't suprise me and is a shame.

How did the Rangers conduct themselves?

[obd]

Javehn and Midav, you two are pretty darn funny........Its just a little ironic to hear the two of you talk about "American Marines misusing Israeli tactics and pissing off civilians and it shows in how bad it is in Iraq".

Well I have a simple question for you: Why is it that every time I turn on the news, even pro Israeli news like Fox and also CBN (Christian Broadcast Network), almost EVERY Israeli operation kills Palestinain civilians......from boys playing soccer in the streets to little girls playing with thier dolls..........hmmmmm very odd....From a "not annoying the civlians" standpoint, you Israeli's have about the worst record in the buisness. Even by your own newspapers estimates, the number of Palestinian civilians killed in Amry operations is in the thousands.........interesting indeed.

I would also remind you that US Marines had Fallujah nailed **** until politics made them stop thier operations........They had Fallujah Mullahs BEGGING them to pull out thier snipers.........

I dont know, just seems odd to me........I dont think I can ever believe an Israeli Army soldier talking about being sensitive to civilian casualties.............especially with the news showing torn apart little boys and girls after Israei ops........not that it doesnt go both ways of course. I see news of Palesitnian suicide bombings too.........but lets not pretend that one side kills civilians and the other does not......On a pure numbers standpoint, the civilian casualty rate is VERY lopsided.....with the maority of dead being on the Palestinian side according even to Israeli estimates I have seen................

Also, lets not forget the famous Israeli "collective punishment" (did you learn that from the Nazi's ?) of destroying family homes of suicide bombers whose families often had no idea of what they were going to do........I cant tell you how it hurts your cause to see some boy and girl sitting outside thier destroyed home because thier older brother deicded to be a suicide bomber......Dont know but to me it seems counter productive.......Destroy those innocent childrens lives and your sure gonna make it more likely they are gonna it you when they come of age..............just a thought guys..............

Israeli Army isnt exactly known for being soft footed and easy handed........if you get my drift.............

US Marines however, have a LONG and proud history. Much longer and with more historical experience that any Israeli Army unit.......so watch what you say please..........

[obd]

Oh, and if I had to put a battalion of US Marines up against a battalion of Isralie Army in city fighting, I'd put my money on the Marines any day of the week............They might act a little "strange" in training but when it comes time to kicking ass and blowing **** up, they have no equals in the world........just ask the Japanese..........

[UoUo]

LoL are you serious? dam...how many Iraqis died from the American? dam...stop this ****ing hypocrisy!!! we are killing unarmed people? we are the most human army in the world...the pal' have somthing like 3,000 deads in 4 years of fightig...how many iraqis died in the last year? i can bet it more than 10,000....you mister are hypocritical.

[UoUo]

Oh, and if I had to put a battalion of US Marines up against a battalion of Isralie Army in city fighting, I'd put my money on the Marines any day of the week............They might act a little "strange" in training but when it comes time to kicking ass and blowing **** up, they have no equals in the world........just ask the Japanese..........


:roll:

And you whould know cuz you fighting so many wars in you life.

I think javehn have "little" more experience than yours.

[Midav]

obd-- You prove an old saying correct. I'll give you the shortened format: Open mouth and remove all doubt.

I was talking in reference as to how the Marines acted in Israel, as compared to the Rangers that are there.

That is all I wanted to know.

Also, stop trying to turn this into a US vs Israel military thread. That's what childish posters do, hijack threads.

[Moledet]

Oh, and if I had to put a battalion of US Marines up against a battalion of Isralie Army in city fighting, I'd put my money on the Marines any day of the week............They might act a little "strange" in training but when it comes time to kicking ass and blowing **** up, they have no equals in the world........just ask the Japanese..........
I'm sorry to bring you the bad news, but the Marines lost misreably to the Israeli Paratroopers in "lasers war".
There was not even one casualty to the paratroopers.

The palis has 2,600 deads in 4 years, but the number include terrorists and militants.
The "torned" boddies are boddies of people that carried an explosive belt on themselves and blew it up, I've seen many pictures of this kind of stuff over the internet, you can clearly see that they died from an explosive belt.

[n4292936]

US FORCES fighting in Iraq have been accused of secretly training in Israel

OH MY LORD!

What a horrible thing to be accused of!

:roll:If you had even a vague understanding of the nature of the conflict you would understand why this could be a problem.

Israel undoubtedly has extensive expertise in this area, and clearly the coalition forces can learn alot from that. However, going about it is problematic given the Arab sensitivities regarding the US-Israel connection. We will not win this war if we dont win the arab hearts - that is a fundamental, and well tested fact that relates to any insurgency.

[Javehn]

Javehn and Midav, you two are pretty darn funny........Its just a little ironic to hear the two of you talk about "American Marines misusing Israeli tactics and pissing off civilians and it shows in how bad it is in Iraq".

Well I have a simple question for you: Why is it that every time I turn on the news, even pro Israeli news like Fox and also CBN (Christian Broadcast Network), almost EVERY Israeli operation kills Palestinain civilians......from boys playing soccer in the streets to little girls playing with thier dolls..........hmmmmm very odd....From a "not annoying the civlians" standpoint, you Israeli's have about the worst record in the buisness. Even by your own newspapers estimates, the number of Palestinian civilians killed in Amry operations is in the thousands.........interesting indeed.

I would also remind you that US Marines had Fallujah nailed **** until politics made them stop thier operations........They had Fallujah Mullahs BEGGING them to pull out thier snipers.........

I dont know, just seems odd to me........I dont think I can ever believe an Israeli Army soldier talking about being sensitive to civilian casualties.............especially with the news showing torn apart little boys and girls after Israei ops........not that it doesnt go both ways of course. I see news of Palesitnian suicide bombings too.........but lets not pretend that one side kills civilians and the other does not......On a pure numbers standpoint, the civilian casualty rate is VERY lopsided.....with the maority of dead being on the Palestinian side according even to Israeli estimates I have seen................

Also, lets not forget the famous Israeli "collective punishment" (did you learn that from the Nazi's ?) of destroying family homes of suicide bombers whose families often had no idea of what they were going to do........I cant tell you how it hurts your cause to see some boy and girl sitting outside thier destroyed home because thier older brother deicded to be a suicide bomber......Dont know but to me it seems counter productive.......Destroy those innocent childrens lives and your sure gonna make it more likely they are gonna it you when they come of age..............just a thought guys..............

Israeli Army isnt exactly known for being soft footed and easy handed........if you get my drift.............

US Marines however, have a LONG and proud history. Much longer and with more historical experience that any Israeli Army unit.......so watch what you say please..........

Oh, and if I had to put a battalion of US Marines up against a battalion of Isralie Army in city fighting, I'd put my money on the Marines any day of the week............They might act a little "strange" in training but when it comes time to kicking ass and blowing **** up, they have no equals in the world........just ask the Japanese..........

Wow , wow , take it easy cowboy !! What Ganja you have been smoking this week ? Damn !!! What's wrong with you ? Don't even go to that direction !! You don't know what you are talking about ,
Dolboyob .

[Knutsen]

on a different note maybe we should start a list of countries which have been fighting terrorists for many years now. feel free to add to it

Country Years
Israel 50+
India 50+
USA not sure when it started
UK
France
Russia
Germany
Sri Lanka

Italy 30+
Spain 40+

[combat jack]

U.S. soldiers training in Iraq? Politically stupid, tactically sound. When lives are at stake f*ck polititcs.

[Phil642]

Tsahal training US troop is not a scoop, it is visible since a long time.

Tanks also begin to be equiped for street fight as the Israely tanks.

I do not see where the problem is as everyone knows that US and Israel are allied.

[shrek]

Old news!

[DPGLAW]

I really hope that Israel is training our forces as they are definitely the world's experts on counter-terrorism and dealing with terrorists and insurgents as the have been facing this problem for years. They have also been the most successful in the battle on terror. The tatics and methods they use against the murderous terrorist Palestinians have worked so well that I think their use and application in Iraq would have a significant impact on the terrorists there that are trying to kill our troops. I say that screw anyone who doesn't like it, that includes the arabs (about whom we shouldn't care if they are offended) and that this training is necessary to help keep our troops alive and to assist them in prevailing against this enemy. The best training in the world is necessary to prevail in Iraq.

[moughoun]

I really hope that Israel is training our forces as they are definitely the world's experts on counter-terrorism and dealing with terrorists and insurgents as the have been facing this problem for years. They have also been the most successful in the battle on terror. The tatics and methods they use against the murderous terrorist Palestinians have worked so well that I think their use and application in Iraq would have a significant impact on the terrorists there that are trying to kill our troops. I say that screw anyone who doesn't like it, that includes the arabs (about whom we shouldn't care if they are offended) and that this training is necessary to help keep our troops alive and to assist them in prevailing against this enemy. The best training in the world is necessary to prevail in Iraq.

Then you invaded and "liberated" the wrong place