SA80 ****?

[andrew45c]

Is the SA80A2 still crap even after the upgrades or is it improved MOD claims that it is Extremely acuurate but this was allways known and that it is reliable and hard wearing. But the one obvious downfall is that it cannot be used by left handers unless they whant a facefull of hot shell casings.

[Gringo]

I suggest that only servicemen who have used the SA80A2 vote as they r really the only people who have used it.
I have used the L98 Cadet GP rifle but that is different to the SA80A2, I'm not gonna vote.

[GazB]

I love the look of the SA80, and think it would probabl make a great range rifle, but I agree with ScreamingEagle and will not vote either way as I have not fired it myself.

[andrew45c]

SA 80A2 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon


SA80 is the designation for a revolutionary family of assault weapons. On its introduction, the L85 Individual Weapon (IW) proved so accurate that the Army marksmanship tests had to be redesigned. The British Army uses the L85 Individual Weapon that replaced the rifle and sub-machine gun, and the L86 Light Support Weapon (LSW) that produces higher volumes of fire and is effective at longer ranges. An infantry section consists of two four-man fire teams armed with SA80s: three IWs and one LSW.

Both weapons have been modified in light of operational experience, and had a major mid-life update in 2002, which resulted in the SA80A2 series -–the most reliable weapons of their type in the world.

One new Underslung Grenade Launcher (UGL), designed to be mounted beneath the barrel of the IW, will be issued to each fire team, replacing the Rifle Grenade General Service (RGGS) and 51mm mortar – significantly reducing the ammunition load the infantry section carries, while enhancing its capabilities. The UGL will be able to fire 40mm High Explosive (HE), smoke and illuminating rounds out to a range of 350 m to destroy, obscure or indicate enemy positions.

There is also a single shot version of the IW in service with the Army Cadets.

.



L85 Individual Weapon
Calibre 5.56 mm
Weight 4.98 kg (with loaded magazine and optical sight)
Length 785 mm
Barrel Length 518 mm
Muzzle Velocity 940 m/s
Feed 30 round magazine
Effective Range 400 m
Cyclic Rate of Fire 610-775 rounds per minute

L86 Light Support Weapon

Calibre 5.56 mm
Weight 6.58 kg (with loaded magazine and optical sight)
Length 900 mm
Barrel Length 646 mm
Muzzle Velocity 970 m/s
Feed 30 round magazine
Effective Range 1000 m
Cyclic Rate of Fire 610-775 rounds per minute.


From the british army offical website.

[Gringo]

There is also a single shot version of the IW in service with the Army Cadets.

That's the L98 Cadet GP Rifle.

[Sabre]

I have not used the A2, so I won't comment on it's reliability.

But it is essentially the same design, which I think is flawed.

The balance is wrong, it's too top heavy with a SUSAT on, it 'tips back' with a full mag on (meaning it's more tiring to hold), but most importantly it's not instinctively designed.

The safety is ok, but the change lever is crap and requires you to take your had off the weapon to switch modes.

The M16 is much better. I found that it was much lighter (or felt that way) and the placement of the 'gubbings' much more instinctive to use. the combined safety/change lever is great, and it's positioned just above the pistol grip, no need to move your hand away. the magazine release is well positioned and the forward assist button is a good idea. the whole weapon looks like it was designed around the working parts. Unlike the SA80, which is a box full of crap parts.

The LSW is just pants, no balance, no justification for it's concept at all. A support weapon that fires 5.56 needs the following in order to be worthwhile:

1. Longer range (marginal with the LSW)
2. Higher rate of fire (nope)
3. Higher magazine capacity (nope)

Pointless. The Minimi has all of this and is therefore far better.

BTW, do any othe SA80 users gett annoyed by the dozens of cuts and scraps you get from just picking up the weapon?! And what about that callous that forms on the right thumb knuckle?

Just wondering... :)

[Kampfhamster]

There is also a single shot version of the IW in service with the Army Cadets.

That's the L98 Cadet GP Rifle.

What are the reasons for the introduction of a cadet rifle??


@Sabre: BTW: the author of LotR is Tolkien, not Tolkein ;)

[Sabre]

Tolkien, you're right...must have been the qoute place I got it from.

The reasons for intruducing the L 98 are the same as those used for the introduction of the SA80...

...another idea from the MoD RIB (Random Ideas Bureau)!

The Idea being a single shot action was safer, and a larger cocking handle would be easier to use.

That is wrong, though. The larger handle sticks due to poor design and disturbs the fire position too much. The subsequent hotch-potched weapon handling drills neccessary for cocking with the 'wrong' (right) hand lead to dangerous points where the weapon isn't held properly. (ie Holding the working parts to the rear).

The best option would be to have an SA80 with gas parts but only on repitition, not Automatic. This is rumoured about being introduced.

[Sabre]

See, changed it now...

:)

[Kampfhamster]

That's good.

But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun??

That's for me a little strange. Our recruits learn to shoot with the SIG 550, nothing else.

And the 16 year old boys and girls in the shooting club's learn it the same way.

[Gringo]

The safety is ok

I've heard that the safety catch on the SA80 isn't all that ok as someone said that deactivating the safety catch has to be done with the trigger finger "Which is madness!!!!!" , but quite a few weapons r like that, GPMG and Minimi to name a few.

[GazB]

"But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun?? "

Much cheaper if you are firing thousands of rounds. Also with such a low powered round you can use much smaller ranges, and indoor ranges with less noise problems.

[Sabre]

Yeah, the safety is a bar that passes through the reciever. You can put it on by using your left thumb, but putting it off requires using the trigger finger.

You can use the middle finger (not in that way, although it might help morale!) of your left hand to put it off, but that involves holding the weapon virtually like a pistol. With only the thumb and index of your left hand gripping the hand guard and the ring and little fingers resting on the fingers of the right hand.

GazB's points about the .22 rifle make sense, on paper. In reality, the weapon (called the No.8), is based on the Lee-Enfield rifle. It's massive and heavy. The bolt and the rest of the working parts are far too excessive for the tiny .22 round. It was often difficult for cadets to hold the weapon for long periods (or even a detail of 5 rounds). A much better idea would have been to buy the .22 conversion kits for the SA80. They use the same .22 rounds, but the L98 would be easier to handle.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Kampfhamster said

But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun??

That's for me a little strange. Our recruits learn to shoot with the SIG 550, nothing else.

And the 16 year old boys and girls in the shooting club's learn it the same way.

Switzerland has a very sensible attitude towards shooting and firearms - and as a result you have plenty shooting ranges capable of taking 5.56mm ammo and upwards. In the UK, firearms are our national paranoia and in many cases cadet units - or anyone else for that matter - have to travel considerable distances to use ranges which will take 5.56mm ammo and bigger, whereas almost every town has an indoor .22 range, as do virtually all military bases.

In the good old pre-SA80 days, we had a sub-calibre (i.e. .22LR) insert system made by H&K for our 7.62mm SLRs.

On Sunday I will be travelling over 100 miles each way to attend a rifle match because this is the closest non-military range to where I live - bet it isn't like that in Switzerland.

[Kampfhamster]

I see. That sucks.

The next shooting range here is about 1,5 km away. And then is there a second about 2,5 km away :lol:

But I don't understand the sense of .22 lr-weapons. Their characteristica is quite different.

BTW: SLR is a nice rifle. A little bit too long, but really good.

[James]

Using .22 lr as a training aid isn't bad, if that's the only option available. The fundamentals of marksmanship are the same, regardless of whether one is shooting a .177 air rifle or a .50 BMG sniper rifle.

[Gringo]

Kampfhamster said

But why do they introduce a .22 lr gun??

That's for me a little strange. Our recruits learn to shoot with the SIG 550, nothing else.

And the 16 year old boys and girls in the shooting club's learn it the same way.

Switzerland has a very sensible attitude towards shooting and firearms - and as a result you have plenty shooting ranges capable of taking 5.56mm ammo and upwards. In the UK, firearms are our national paranoia and in many cases cadet units - or anyone else for that matter - have to travel considerable distances to use ranges which will take 5.56mm ammo and bigger, whereas almost every town has an indoor .22 range, as do virtually all military bases.

In the good old pre-SA80 days, we had a sub-calibre (i.e. .22LR) insert system made by H&K for our 7.62mm SLRs.

On Sunday I will be travelling over 100 miles each way to attend a rifle match because this is the closest non-military range to where I live - bet it isn't like that in Switzerland.

I guess my Cadet unit must be lucky as our Detachment building is located on an RAF base (long story) and there is a decent firing range on the base along with an armoury (of course) where we can do Skill At Arms more regularly then other cadet units.

[martinexsquaddie]

my brother off on OP telic in 20 days they have used the A2 and a lot of its faults have been ironed out its now reliable it was always accurate.
The LSW has been given a new role the british armys brought minimi so what is the role of the LSW a piss poor machine gun But an outstanding squad marksman rifle with its long heavy Barrel and Bipod its accurate out to 1000m its role is to surpress the enemy by killing them 5.56mm in you your not playing any more :(
new fire team
section commander
grenade launcher
minmi machine gunner
LSW for long range shooting
Because of its bullpup design it has a longer barrel giving the 5.56 round more range so it can shoot out to the same sort of ranges the sr25 m14 can without the problem of the platoon having two diffrent ammo types to carry .

[GazB]

"The LSW has been given a new role the british armys brought minimi so what is the role of the LSW a piss poor machine gun But an outstanding squad marksman rifle"

Interesting you mention this... the RPK-74, which is roughly the Soviet equivelent is also described as quite accurate (While testing armour piercing ammo three round groups of 18mm centre to centre at 300m were recorded, though the first round warm up shot was a flier...)

Of course Soviet training where everyone fired on full auto in bursts with their assault rifles during an assault meant that a non changeable barrel was not as big a problem as with the British forces. (ie rate of fire was very high already, so the LMG was not so much suppression, as longer range accurate fire... ie roughly what the British are proposing now).

martinexsquaddie, could you describe what weapons a British platoon would be carrying, if that isn't too off topic?
With the Russians new policy of aimed accurate fire in single shot, I am wondering if their makeup of their Platoons weapons will change.

[martinexsquaddie]

At the moment things are in a state of flex
Basically SA 80
SA 80 with grenade launcher
LSW
MINIMI
Then its gets a little confusing theres some talk of bringing a support section which would include 2 GPMGS (FN MAgs) and the New platoon sharpshooter rifle an accuracy international rifle in .338 ( chosen over .50 because you can carry it and also theres long range highly accurate ammo readily available) But latest thinking is Gpmgs and sharpshooter rifles will be kept at company level. Other support weapons include a 94mm disposable anti tank rocket with an enhanched blast munition on order Basically some sort of thermobaric warhead for fibuia/mout Handguns are not really carried by anybody in an infantry battalion sometimes by the CO depending on how warry he is

[Sabre]

GazB:

What martin is saying is true. There is a recent ORBAT being tested in the 'more active' (shall we say) infantry units to test some different roles for current weaponry.

The sections are now as martin described (UGL, Minimi, LSWA2 and SA80A2). Any rifleman can carry a LAW 94, depending on the armour threat. They would also be carrying 51 bombs and GPMG link. Other weapons include Rifle grenades, but these might be phased-out due to the introduction of the UGL. There is also a new group being tested known as the 'Movement Support Group'.

The composition of this is:

2x GPMG
1x 51mm (possibly 2x, we did this but only because we had two 51's at the time!)
1x i/c

The proposal is also to include a bod with the L96 7.62mm sniper rifle. Now that the LRLCR (Long Range, Large Calibre, Rifle) 8.5mm (?) is being introduced to fill the role of the L96, they will be training a sniper for every platoon. This is more like the mixed section make-up the russians have with their SVD's used like an accurate rifle, rather than as a sniper system.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/3453.html

I look forward to seeing this as it would mean that there would be a dedicated fire support group with a mix of HE, HMG and deliberate fire always there to support an attack. Compare this to the situation where if you needed two sections up for the assault, there would be no reserve (one having to act as fire support).

This would also be of benefit in situations like Iraq, allowing platoons to act more independantly/aggressively as they would have sufficient organic firepower to deal with larger enemy forces.

Hope that helps!

:)

[martinexsquaddie]

I think the 51mm mortar is being binned apprantly the ammos too expensive for it as there are now Ugls its sort out of role plus its more weight to carry.
good news is company is going to get automatic grenade launchers to go with gpmg SF kit :lol:

[Sabre]

AGL's...nice! :) :) :)

Doubt I'll see them for a while though.

The 51's OK, but if they bin it it'll still mean that some of the reserve section would have to deploy to lay down a smoke screen, put down HE. Also, what's the consideration for range, accuracy and ammo states? they would have to carry a fair number of grenades to support an attack. Plus, what's the difference in killing power between the two? I would still preffer to have a good 51 man at my disposal as the PC.

[martinexsquaddie]

yeah but how many light role battalions you know had any good 51mm mortar men ? OK any trained mortar men we got it out once a year for a caddy never fired He rounds only used smoke.
apprantly the 51mm rounds cost too much so no training might as well bin it

[GazB]

Interesting parallels with the Russian choices and potential changes.
I doubt that they will remove the GPMGs and SVDs from platoons, as they tend these days to be organic... ie the BMP-3 has two hull mounted GPMGs with fibreoptic sights, but still has firing ports for RPKs, so the unit wil retain its LMGs. BTR platoons will retain GPMGS to be used dismounted.

They are currently testing a new 9.3 x 64mm medium range round in their SVD-K.
Regarding support equipment every other soldier carries disposable AT (RPG-22 being replaced by RPG-26 and RPG-27) or specialised rocket launchers like the RPO-A. One platoon member will have an RPG-7 or RPG-29. Pistols are fairly rare, though special troops do seem to like the APS stechkin machine pistol still and replacement models are developed to replace them.


Mortars are very popular with the soviets but their 50mm was phased out quite some time ago. 40mm rifle mounted grenade launchers are popular as are the ASG-30 AGLs, though the latter are used in their own seperate units for support.

There is a new Russian sniper rifle that is intended to be very accurate (as opposed to the SVD which is adequate from medium ranges up to about 5-600m). It is a bolt action much like the Accuracy International rifle the British use. It is unclear whether it will be issued to all units to replace the SVD or if the new model SVDs (ie SVDS with a folding stock, and the SVDK in high power calibre) will remain, with specialist snipers being issued with the SV-98.

Are there any units in the British army that aren't fully mechanised? Do the paras have armoued vehicles? A support vehicle increases mobility and firepower greatly... just wondering if the Paras have anything available yet. I had seen a plastic APC the British were working on. It was still 20 odd tons but looked interesting.

Also considering their use as bunker busters in the Falklands, are there any HE or FAE warheads for Milan in British use? I always wondered why the British never bought the various HE rounds for the Carl Gustav.
Was it like the RPG in that the HEAT round had adequate fragmentation to make it a multi purpose round?

[martinexsquaddie]

The Paras have no armour the RAF would'nt have the airlift capability to support them anyway. The soviet coldwar plan to land divisions in central europe was always a bit of a farce any sort of para drop against a country with an operational air defenses system will end in a massacre.
The British have a number of type B battalions who are basically on foot
there is no dedicated bunker buster at the moment but there working on it.
Armoured infantry are mounted on warrior so not likely to need extra Gpmgs with a chain gun and a 30mm they'd just get in the way.
Paras have armed landrovers thats about it

[Chris1]

there is no dedicated bunker buster at the moment but there working on it.

Probably resulting in something three times as heavy as Charlie G, with ammunition that can make you a brew but has the explosive capability of a french banger :)
The best light infantry get are Land Rovers, Bedfords and the like
The Battalions who were supposed to be Armoured Infantry but the Government couldn't afford it, got Saxon (a vehicle that can't stop high calibre rounds, hasn't got a chance against an RPG and rolls over as often as Fido, its responsible for a few deaths.) The Armoured Infantry get Warrior which was one of those suprisingly good purchases by the MoD.
Our GPMG's were at company level, we had them but they weren't with us in the Warriors, which is good because I can't see someone with a GPMG getting out that quick :)
That 30mm though, lets just say I REALLY wouldn't want to be on the other end of it :)

[martinexsquaddie]

there working on an enhanced Blast Munition something like a thermobaric weapon in the range of the 94mm.
Basically means no more ****ing around with room clearing just whack one of these into the lower floors set the house alight and move on.
No more building bunkers in rooms not going to help you if one of these blast weapons come through.
Dibuia will basically mean loosing off rounds and ****ing off stay static and the enemys armour will squish you. the russians found room clearing they lost to many men in chechenya so there reponse just flatten any building in there way

[GazB]

"The soviet coldwar plan to land divisions in central europe was always a bit of a farce any sort of para drop against a country with an operational air defenses system will end in a massacre. "

The whole idea of giving them armour is to allow them to be dropped some distance from the target area. Noone would fly cargo planes into a hostile country that had a fully operational airdefence system... look at the interventions in Hungary, of the invasion of Afghanistan. Both involved the use of airborne units to take and hold objectives ahead of the main force. the point is that only a heavy armoured force could expect to counter them and such units would not be spread around the enemies rear areas.


Anyways... which AGL would the British be buying? I read somewhere that more 40mm AGL rounds were fired in Desert Storm than 7.62mm MG rounds. I can understand that. Russian Troops in Chechnia loved their 40mm GP-25s and -30s. Best way to clear a room is from down the street with a 40mm, or an RPG rocket.

Speaking of the RPG, they have some new and very interesting thermobaric warheads. I really don't know why the British army dropped the Carl Gustav... it was heavy, but it seemed to have a very interesting and expanding range of rounds. Surely a lighter, more modern model would be of use. Perhaps eventually a laser beam riding round could be used to extend range and hit probability... I have heard the Russians and Israelis are looking into both. (The Russians already have laser homing packages for their unguided aerial rockets, including their S-5 57mm and S-8 80mm rockets).

[martinexsquaddie]

They binned the 84 because it was **** all use against armour so the Law 80 was brought in with the idea of being able to take soviet armour head on with Milan killing the Command and air defence. then the helis A10s harriers etc come in and **** over the shock army's neat little formation with mavericks tows and cluster bombs :lol
all very pretty till someone spoils it all and the nukes start flying :)

[GazB]

Shame they couldn't design something like the RPG-7 where the warhead is external and therefore can be made larger. The first few rounds the RPG fired were about 75mm, then later models had 85mm, later still they designed some smaller, but more effective designs and then went bigger again. The current warhead is 105mm with a tandem warhead for use on ERA. Penetration of 600-800mm is not really enough for a guaranteed penetration from the front, but as most opponents of Soviet forces or their surrogates , and many guerilla groups and their opponents like Israel or South Africa have found the RPG is a versatile weapon that is worth carrying around. Excellent for ambushes... both for setting and/or for escaping. New Thermobaric warheads with a shaped charge precursor are also in service (the shaped charge blows a hole in a wall or side of a light vehicle while the FAE material is blown into the structure and detonated... means you don't have to aim for windows andis very effective) make it even more versatile in Urban environments. (Both the Russians and the Chechens use as many as they can get.)

[martinexsquaddie]

my brother was impressed with the rpg he used in the Ukraine.
What he was'nt so much impressed with was the fact the warheads had a habit of going off if roughly handled. Not an Ideal attribute for a battlefield weapon. Plus he thought the sights were crap.
IN ireland the Ira had a couple of spectacular failures with RPGS once they left the safety cap on the round if fired went through a RUC landover out the other end and ended up shooting around inside a school. The second incident they tried to fire one form the inside of a van roast provo anyone. Basically the MOD is ordering something similar to the RPG themobaric round but built with western safety standards so 100 times the cost then woot

[GazB]

"Plus he thought the sights were crap. "

Iron or Optic? They certainly take time to work out how to use properly.
Once you are used to the Soviet rangefinder scale they are actually quite good.

"What he was'nt so much impressed with was the fact the warheads had a habit of going off if roughly handled."

Well.. I'd say first af all anything with 2kg of HE in it should be handled with care, but they should have a safety fuse in them that prevents detonation within 11m or so after launch.

"IN ireland the Ira had a couple of spectacular failures with RPGS once they left the safety cap on the round if fired went through a RUC landover out the other end and ended up shooting around inside a school."

So the safety cap works... did the self destruct work when it ran out of rocket fuel?

"The second incident they tried to fire one form the inside of a van roast provo anyone."

So the only problems with it are occuring when they don't use it properly?
I'd think their usefulness outways any such potential problems...

"Basically the MOD is ordering something similar to the RPG themobaric round but built with western safety standards so 100 times the cost then "

Of course the whole point behind cheap and simple rounds like this is to make them so expensive they are like firing live milans each time... except without the range or accuracy.. ;)

I should work for the DoD.

[Sabre]

See what you mean about the 51mm. If it's too difficult/expensive to train with there's not much point in keeping it. Especially with 6x 40mm UGLs per platoon. The only problem is the lack of constant HE/Smoke cover. Not every platoon would be able to have Battalion mortar assets (the MFC can't be everywhere!). For example, whta happens if the reserve section has no LOS to the enemy, and the two assault sections are moving up to the FUP? At this time none of the UGL blokes could engage the enemy, just at the time you want them to be supressed.

As far as Armoured Infantry goes, the regiments/battalions rotate between light and armoured. So there will be some regiments with Warrior and some without. The others either use Bedfords/Landies or they go on foot :) . Saxons are only really for urban/peacekeeping ops. They were really designed for riot control in NI, not for the battlefield at all.

The Paras, the 'Light Division' (LI, GJ), and the RM are all permanently on foot or landrover based. The Paras and the RM will vary between air mobile, landrover and foot ops. That's why it annoys me when people over here complain that 'our troops don't even get armoured vehicles', course not, they're Paras, they wouldn't know how to use one! :)

Seriously though, a landie with GPMG + Milan/ .50 cal is very formidable in the right hands.

[MARK.TIGGER]

some one mention the charlie g there was an opportunity wasted yes its heavy and by the 80's couldn't penetrate modern armour but at least it was reuseable and the rounds not as cumbersome as the 94mm. Improved ammo and increasing the types of ammo available could have made this a reasonable support weapon an 84mm HE round hitting a bunker or a building would have ruined someones day.

[MARK.TIGGER]

Post op reports on tellic apear to say L85a2 worked well. I heard in theatre that the Yanks were having major problems with the M16A2,M9 and M249.

how did the para minimi's preform goes anyone know and the L85/AG36 combination grenade launcher did it work?

[Chris1]

The Paras, the 'Light Division' (LI, GJ), and the RM are all permanently on foot or landrover based. The Paras and the RM will vary between air mobile, landrover and foot ops. That's why it annoys me when people over here complain that 'our troops don't even get armoured vehicles', course not, they're Paras, they wouldn't know how to use one! :)
Not entirely correct matey, 2RGJ was/is Armoured Infantry.
I was referring to the Battalions that were originally roled as Armoured Infantry, but instead were reroled and got Saxon becasue the government slashed the number of Warriors to be bought.

[Gringo]

Post op reports on tellic apear to say L85a2 worked well. I heard in theatre that the Yanks were having major problems with the M16A2,M9 and M249.

how did the para minimi's preform goes anyone know and the L85/AG36 combination grenade launcher did it work?

I heard the M9 was having problems in Iraq, stoppages had to load 10 rounds instead of 15. And the M4 was thought to lack the range and stopping power (at a distance) of an M16. I remember there was some complaints about the M249, can't remember what those were though.

[Seraphim]

http://www.sftt.org/article06102003a.html

[martinexsquaddie]

what i read was basically the minimi and m9s were wearing out the minmi is a good good but won't last forever especially if no money put forward for refurbs.
nobody seems to like the M9 its an american thing

[ace mase]

Is the SA80A2 still crap even after the upgrades or is it improved MOD claims that it is Extremely acuurate but this was allways known and that it is reliable and hard wearing. But the one obvious downfall is that it cannot be used by left handers unless they whant a facefull of hot shell casings.

i have fired both the sa80 a1 the sa80 a2 and the cadet gp and soon to be the lsw but i must say the sa80 a2 must beat every personal wepon i have fired it is fantastic well upgreaded from the a1 also the only mg that have been made left handed are the m-16 and the old ak47 but the sa80 is easy to get on with even for left handers after a bit of practise i dont think that there is any way they could improve the a2 it has got to be the best idevidual weapon in the world!

[ed316]

Holy shat!!!! 3 years!

[kamarian]

talk about digging up the dead!

[Catch22]

At least he used the search ;-) I wonder what comparision the guy has, cause he seems a bit overenthusiastic with the SA80 ergonomics and controls.

[AK74]

nice for the range, not so nice for the sandy and dusty battlefield.

[California Joe]

i have fired both the sa80 a1 the sa80 a2 and the cadet gp and soon to be the lsw but i must say the sa80 a2 must beat every personal wepon i have fired it is fantastic well upgreaded from the a1 also the only mg that have been made left handed are the m-16 and the old ak47 but the sa80 is easy to get on with even for left handers after a bit of practise i dont think that there is any way they could improve the a2 it has got to be the best idevidual weapon in the world!

Why do you keep referring to it by the wrong designation in a 3 year old thread you knucklehead.