Celsius 41.11

[aartamen]

http://www.citizensunited-interactive.org/c41.11/

[cut]

How can you criticise Moore, and applaud this.

[Abolith]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

[UkrainianAmerican]

It uses his methods, except the facts remain unchanged, so in fact while using cheesy editing techniques, no lies are being presented.

[UkrainianAmerican]

It uses his methods, except the facts remain unchanged, so in fact while using cheesy editing techniques, no lies are being presented.

[Howitz]

Where did he say he was applauding it?

Looks like it'd be amusing if nothing else, probably on the same level as F-911, in that it uses heavy editing to "prove" a point. Like the images of saddam and executions with those two girls talking at what seemed like a democrat rally or something. "I like that dictator!" rofl

[Uncle Sam]

Don't ever let me catch anyone stomping on the American Flag.

[cut]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

so you should support bull****/propaganda if it's patriotic?

[HoboWithAK]

Put on your nomex, boys and girls, the flame is growing.

[cut]

Put on your nomex, boys and girls, the flame is growing.

no need for that

[Ayura]

*Straps over most of the nomex over balls*


Gotta protect a mans gods-given natural possesion...

[BarkingSquirrel]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

so you should support bull****/propaganda if it's patriotic?So you should support bull****/propaganda if it's made by a liberal lying slob?

[cut]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

so you should support bull****/propaganda if it's patriotic?So you should support bull****/propaganda if it's made by a liberal lying slob?

hell no, and that's my point (have a look at my initial post)

[BarkingSquirrel]

Just making sure we were clear about it. ;)

[aartamen]

A lot of people don't realise just how dumb the lefties are.

[Roktiken]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

So using you're right to freedom of speech makes you anti-American.

Go back to being spoon fed by you're government k.

[Midav]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

So using you're right to freedom of speech makes you anti-American.

Go back to being spoon fed by you're government k.

True, but to play devil's advocate, MM lacks the freedom of comon sense :)

[Roktiken]

Michael Moore has an opinion and that is what he is expressing, I honestly dont know where these right wing nutcases get the idea that he is unpatriotic, anti-American and wants America to burn.

Guys get you're heads out of you're backsides you're making america look like a joke up here.

[Midav]

Michael Moore has an opinion and that is what he is expressing, I honestly dont know where these right wing nutcases get the idea that he is unpatriotic, anti-American and wants America to burn.

Guys get you're heads out of you're backsides you're making america look like a joke up here.

Like Michael Moore's movies, that was an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have watched most of his movies, and I gotat tell you, as funny as Canadian Bacon is, it isn't a true documentary :)

[Roktiken]

So what would you consider an opinion then? An opinion isnt that Michael Moore believes that the Bush administration tricked the American people and played on it's fear of terrorism.

I do think you need to look up in the dictionary what the definiation of "Opinion" is

[Kilgor]

Oh man... "if that dictactor provides free healthcare... i like that dictator "!

jeez the far left are ****ing stupid.

[Midav]

So what would you consider an opinion then? An opinion isnt that Michael Moore believes that the Bush administration tricked the American people and played on it's fear of terrorism.

I do think you need to look up in the dictionary what the definiation of "Opinion" is

It is still an opinion what he puts into his movies, what he writes for his movies, what and how he directs for his movies and what he puts into his movies.

He takes some truth and spins a huge net around it, what he proclaims as the truth even if not.

As you, I've been to too many boards and posted on this and it gets old. I need to start saving my posts. Would make it a lot easier.

As the saying goes, there's three sides to every story: There's your side, there's my side, then there's the truth.

[Roktiken]

So what would you consider an opinion then? An opinion isnt that Michael Moore believes that the Bush administration tricked the American people and played on it's fear of terrorism.

I do think you need to look up in the dictionary what the definiation of "Opinion" is

It is still an opinion what he puts into his movies, what he writes for his movies, what and how he directs for his movies and what he puts into his movies.

He takes some truth and spins a huge net around it, what he proclaims as the truth even if not.

As you, I've been to too many boards and posted on this and it gets old. I need to start saving my posts. Would make it a lot easier.

As the saying goes, there's three sides to every story: There's your side, there's my side, then there's the truth.

True enough, Michael Moore does twist some facts but for the most part provides Legitament facts towards his views. Unless you believe those Right Wing nut cases that his entire movie is made up of lies and deception.

But really if they want to bash someone for lies and deception all they need to do is look towards the whitehouse and the man sitting in the chair int he oval office.

[henksmoeder]

Oh man... "if that dictactor provides free healthcare... i like that dictator "!

jeez the far left are f*** stupid.

DON'T GENERALIZE THE LEFT!

Why do you take that qoute and presume every left winger is that way. You can have democarcy and socialism and free market incooperated.

In fact, the European countries that are more to the left are often more democratic than the US.

And on topic about this movie, like cut implied. This is the SAME propaganda as Michael Moore, but only rightist. Anyone who buys this 100% percent is just as stupid as anyone who buys Moore's **** for 100%. Probably even worse, because this movie is playing right into the hands of the elite.

[henksmoeder]

So what would you consider an opinion then? An opinion isnt that Michael Moore believes that the Bush administration tricked the American people and played on it's fear of terrorism.

I do think you need to look up in the dictionary what the definiation of "Opinion" is

It is still an opinion what he puts into his movies, what he writes for his movies, what and how he directs for his movies and what he puts into his movies.

He takes some truth and spins a huge net around it, what he proclaims as the truth even if not.

As you, I've been to too many boards and posted on this and it gets old. I need to start saving my posts. Would make it a lot easier.

As the saying goes, there's three sides to every story: There's your side, there's my side, then there's the truth.

True enough, Michael Moore does twist some facts but for the most part provides Legitament facts towards his views. Unless you believe those Right Wing nut cases that his entire movie is made up of lies and deception.

But really if they want to bash someone for lies and deception all they need to do is look towards the whitehouse and the man sitting in the chair int he oval office.

Exactly. Moore does provide some good evidence. (for example about the Bin Laden's flying out of the US (all other flights being cancelled), while the standard procedure is to interrogate the family.

The trailer of the movie (celsius something) has not presented a single credible thing. You see images of four or more terrorist attacks, but still the chances of actually being hit of such an attack is smaller than the chance of you dying by hart diseases, 'cause you visited McDonalds. It's a desporate attempt by the elite (right wing neo-conservative rich mofo's) to counter Moore's movie that could discredit Bush. Plz, don't tell me you guys dig this po*?

[Midav]

True enough, Michael Moore does twist some facts but for the most part provides Legitament facts towards his views. Unless you believe those Right Wing nut cases that his entire movie is made up of lies and deception.

But really if they want to bash someone for lies and deception all they need to do is look towards the whitehouse and the man sitting in the chair int he oval office.

I never said everything that MM spouts is a lie. However, in his presentations of his motives, let's give an example with Bowling for Columbine, he either likes to ignore certain things or give little solution to a problem:

Does the US have a problem with gun deaths? Yes. That's a no brainer. However, he exploits (for the lack of a better word) the deaths of those killed and says it's only due to guns. You hear little on the psychology as to why it happened and why people are so easy to snap. What about the raising of those kids? Where and what did the parents do?

Were these kids being hurt or abused?

Did the kids have general problems that were overlooked?

That was ignored for the most part.

I myself own guns and realize it's not right to start on a rampage. When I was in school, I was picked on a lot when I lived in Darmstadt, Germany. Was fat and an easy target and continued almost into high school. Yet, it never occured to me to go on a killing spree.

[Midav]

Exactly. Moore does provide some good evidence. (for example about the Bin Laden's flying out of the US (all other flights being cancelled), while the standard procedure is to interrogate the family.

The trailer of the movie (celsius something) has not presented a single credible thing. You see images of four or more terrorist attacks, but still the chances of actually being hit of such an attack is smaller than the chance of you dying by hart diseases, 'cause you visited McDonalds. It's a desporate attempt by the elite (right wing neo-conservative rich mofo's) to counter Moore's movie that could discredit Bush. Plz, don't tell me you guys dig this po*?

That part of the Bin Laden family has nothing to do with Osama. What good would interrogating them have done?

I'm sure the movie, celsius, will do the same things that MM does. Take a little bit of truth and go on from there.

Likewise, you dig MM's po*?

[combat jack]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

so you should support bull****/propaganda if it's patriotic?So you should support bull****/propaganda if it's made by a liberal lying slob?

What if I say that I support neither? Scare tactics all around, plain and simple.

[aartamen]

MM movie demoralized the members of the armed forces that saw it. That's a fact. This is in itself is treasonous. Also being fat ugly and kinda seedy looking is also treasonous.

[Midav]

What if I say that I support neither? Scare tactics all around, plain and simple.

That's how I see it. Like bowling for columbine and what I will do with MM's latest one, when this anti MM movie comes out on HBO, I'll watch it then.

Not any sooner.

[BarkingSquirrel]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

so you should support bull****/propaganda if it's patriotic?So you should support bull****/propaganda if it's made by a liberal lying slob?

What if I say that I support neither? Scare tactics all around, plain and simple.That's what I was getting at. Can't listen to any of them.

[henksmoeder]

Exactly. Moore does provide some good evidence. (for example about the Bin Laden's flying out of the US (all other flights being cancelled), while the standard procedure is to interrogate the family.

The trailer of the movie (celsius something) has not presented a single credible thing. You see images of four or more terrorist attacks, but still the chances of actually being hit of such an attack is smaller than the chance of you dying by hart diseases, 'cause you visited McDonalds. It's a desporate attempt by the elite (right wing neo-conservative rich mofo's) to counter Moore's movie that could discredit Bush. Plz, don't tell me you guys dig this po*?

That part of the Bin Laden family has nothing to do with Osama. What good would interrogating them have done?

I'm sure the movie, celsius, will do the same things that MM does. Take a little bit of truth and go on from there.

Likewise, you dig MM's po*?

a. That part of the Bin Laden's DID have something to do with him. They saw eachother in 2000 if I remember correctly. An FBI guy actually confirmed that questioning relatives is a standard procedure. And why the f##k are all the bin laden's leaving while everyone else's planes are cancelled. Only one to give permission is government.

I don't dig all of MM's po*, but is I stated earlier. He does stir up questions that the people have the right to have answers on.

[Chris1]

MM movie demoralized the members of the armed forces that saw it. That's a fact. This is in itself is treasonous. Also being fat ugly and kinda seedy looking is also treasonous.
rofl
I suppose the whole "stop-loss" thing, year long deployments and the locals shooting at them had nothing to do with it?

[OB Kenobi]

MM movie demoralized the members of the armed forces that saw it. That's a fact. This is in itself is treasonous. Also being fat ugly and kinda seedy looking is also treasonous.

I think being AWOL for a year during Vietnam is treasonous too.

http://protest.bmgbiz.net/AWOLReady.jpg

[ibstolidude]

Exactly. Moore does provide some good evidence. (for example about the Bin Laden's flying out of the US (all other flights being cancelled), while the standard procedure is to interrogate the family.
Although this movie is likely just as polemic and based on misrepresentation - you posted the perfect example of Moore's Bull****.
CLarke, WHO IS INTERVIEWED IN THE FILM about OTHER events, is the person (by his admission and the results of the 911 comm.) who authorized the Bin Laden flights AFTER consulting with the FBI who stated the FBI HAD interviewed all those in the families deemed neccessary. MR Moore then uses this event to attack Bush when the reality reflects that events took place as they SHOULD. 911 Comm. - "each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure" Why not attack Clarke (as he directed it and Bush was not involved) during the film? He was right there on camera? Or perhaps to attack CLarke would remove competence and credability from MM's attack or a source MM needed to make attacks on the Bush admin. And incidently the Saudis flew on 13 Sep - the flight ban ended 13 Sep, all though most airline passenger traffic did not start until the 14th, charter flights did resume.

As I stated previously I would love to see a film that addresses events of 911 and beyond BUT that was made objectively, placing blame AND credit where they were due - however Mr Moore's F911 was ANYTHING but objective. He formulated an opinion then used selective evidence to support his opinion. I have this crazy notion that you gather the facts then decide - insane I know.
It is just plain goofy that so many that oppose Bush or Kerry are willing to do so completely at the cost of truth. And are willing to support anything that feeds their distrust or hate of either individual, from all the crack pot stories or Bush's oil interests in A-stan, to the absolutely retarded ( as in prohibitive) attacks some nut jobs made here against Kerry calling him a pussy for getting wounded 3 times.

[ibstolidude]

It's a desporate attempt by the elite (right wing neo-conservative rich mofo's) to counter Moore's movie that could discredit Bush. Plz, don't tell me you guys dig this po*?
This is wht propoganda does!

1) The left politicians are every bit as rich and come from the same long money (old family money) that the right politicians do, in many cases more money even. They are just as involved w/big businesses, to include many of the business that are often attacked on this site for their relations with many on the right. Neither represent the common man - and likely never will.

2) You call this film an attempt by the rich right to make propoganda against Moore's film (with what evidence?), is F911 then an attempt by the rich left to discredit and use propoganda against the right?

- both sides are rich from living the life of orgies with big business, both sides have their wacko's ( their M. Moores and, likley, whoever made this film in question).

I don't dig this po* or any po* like it, cause they both stink like ****.

[ibstolidude]

http://www.workingpsychology.com/download_folder/Propaganda_And_Fahrenheit.pdf

great read - great read.

enough to have made Beo - jealous.

[Trident-za]

Damn good posts, ibstolidude.

[Phil642]

Come on come on!

The freedom of speach and critics are necessary.

I like M. Moore, this guy tells many trues but of course a lot people does not agree with what he says ... I can understand that.

Bowling for Columbine is also a very good documentary, at least the true is always embarrasing ...

You must alos know that it is not because an article is signed by a scientist, a priest, a mollah, a billionair or a whatever Phd that he's right, I know some stupid ones, some far rights or other extremists supreme bastards with nice high school certificate.

Note, M. Moore is not against America he reveals what's wrong and as everybody nows, nobody is perfect even a state, think about this dear bar philosophers of the unique way of thinking ;)

[ibstolidude]

Come on come on!

The freedom of speach and critics are necessary.

I like M. Moore, this guy tells many trues but of course a lot people does not agree with what he says ... I can understand that.

Bowling for Columbine is also a very good documentary, at least the true is always embarrasing ...

You must alos know that it is not because an article is signed by a scientist, a priest, a mollah, a billionair or a whatever Phd that he's right, I know some stupid ones, some far rights or other extremists supreme bastards with nice high school certificate.

Note, M. Moore is not against America he reveals what's wrong and as everybody nows, nobody is perfect even a state, think about this dear bar philosophers of the unique way of thinking ;)who stated freedom of speech isn't important - who stated that critics are not important - I have repeatedly support critics of the my own nation - lies and mistruths however are beyond the speech of a critic. Perhaps you should read the piece posted, the author and the background.

[combat jack]

Bowling for Columbine and F911 did raise some interesting questions, some of which I still cannot come up with a decent answer. One that particularly bugs me is the reason America leads the world in gun related crime. However, you can come up with statistics to back up just about any claim you want. Foreign nations have completely different legal systems that could make successful statistical calculation for a specific type of crime almost impossible. There has never been a credible link between gun ownership and rising crime levels, but that doesnt neccessarily mean that there isn't one.

Fact: the Bush family made their money from the oil industry. Iraq just happens to be the world fourth largest oil producing nation. Construction of a pipe-line in Afghanistan becomes an afterthought compared to Osama bin Laden, who still remains alive and free. This "Global War on Terror" is alot of hype and chest thumping for a group of dangerous individuals that you could probably fit on a school bus. Even though most Iraqi's seem happy that Saddam is gone (rightfully so), declaring war on a nation for the deeds of a few individuals is counter productive.

Does this mean that electing John Kerry into office will save us? Don't count on it. He hasn't really made his intentions clear as far as Iraq and gun ownership. The Democratic party is out of touch, just like the Republicans.

Here's my point (finally!). Politicians are politicians. They are all crooked bastards who are after their own interests. As interesting as Michael Moore's movie was--and it did raise some interesting questions, I dont accept it as gospel. I don't belive most of what George W. says either. Between conspiracy theories and terror alerts, the truth lies in the middle somewhere. Think for yourself.

[Phil642]

http://www.workingpsychology.com/download_folder/Propaganda_And_Fahrenheit.pdf

great read - great read.

enough to have made Beo - jealous.

Who is that guy working for?

[von_Moo142]

That's an intersting article there.


Isn't the problem not so much Moore or others (the Swift Boat Veterans, or Maj. Rokke, or pro/anti gun lobby groups, etc.), but the fact that there is so much polarization of peoples political views?

[ibstolidude]

That's an intersting article there.
Isn't the problem not so much Moore or others (the Swift Boat Veterans, or Maj. Rokke, or pro/anti gun lobby groups, etc.), but the fact that there is so much polarization of peoples political views?

Although I do believe there are problems with the polarization of view points, I believe that such reporting is a cause.

[Sir Zach of R.]

because moore is an idiot, and an anti-american asshole

So using you're right to freedom of speech makes you anti-American.

Go back to being spoon fed by you're government k.

No, what they are saying makes them anti-American. It's not that you are saying something, it's what you are saying.

I'm starting to sound like Gandalf and Yoda. ;)

[OB Kenobi]

Why isn't this in the Politics section?

[Hiroshima]

Why isn't this in the Politics section?

Because folks just love to let it spill over....folks really use the politics section as a novilty....look at Saturday's pcitures.......see? Those should be in the politic's section.

[Durandal]

How can you criticise Moore, and applaud this.

Because he does not like Moore. A completely rational reason.

I did not see anything that would lead me to believe that this is propaganda.

It might be, but can you say that without actually seeing it?

Having seen most of Moore's works I can see why a number of enterprising and smart people wish to counter Moore's op-ed pieces. They are tired of hearing his stuff called documentaries when in reality they are nothing but conspiracy and political ads.

Chill out man.

There are people that are MUCH more deserving of you defense than Moore. ;)

[OB Kenobi]

Why isn't this in the Politics section?

Because folks just love to let it spill over....folks really use the politics section as a novilty....look at Saturday's pcitures.......see? Those should be in the politic's section.

Yeah, I've noticed a strong Republican slant on this forum. :roll:

I don't understand this whole Republican-military thing, I think it is an image cultivated by Bush propagandists, something that emerged with Bush-Reagan. The fact is, Democrats are historically much more militant. What, forgot about Yugoslavia already? Think Kennedy was a wimp?

How can you compare Bush to Kerry, who at least served and knows what it is to be a soldier? The Bush administration has civilians and businessmen managing the war, that's why it's such a disaster. They don't think in military terms, they think in terms of politics and profit before considering how bad it might be for the troops, and their families.

Ok, so... what were we talking about again?

[von_Moo142]

Although I do believe there are problems with the polarization of view points, I believe that such reporting is a cause.

Agreed. The problem with un-biased and/or false reporting is a difficult issue though. Most media organisations bias thier reporting in some way, and whilst that isn't always bad I think that it is what we expect.

If the BBC suddenly started doing pro-IDF features (or Fox ran reports that were critical of how the Bush administation are handling the situation in Iraq) it would cause problems with many viewers. I don't think that most of us want accurate reporting really.


The Moore example is classic. I know many people who agree with everything he says, just because that is the stance they are expected to take. Many of these people are smart enough to spot the fact that his methods are unsound: it's not that difficult after all, as anyone who has read Moore with an open mind will agree with. And this type of situation is not limited to the libertarian left of course.