British SBS and other Naval Special Forces units

[mikec62001]

I would like your feedback regarding the British Special Boat Service (SBS) and their training. Basing what I'm saying on reference books it seems to me that SBS doesn't seem to concentrate as much as the US SEALs and other Naval SF Units in swimming skills. After looking at a number of different research sources refering to US NAVY SEAL training they seem to teach students to be extremely confident in the water (swimming in a pool/sea with no aids). The SEALs seem to do this extensively. I think I read that the SBS have to be able to swim out to a landing craft off shore with Boots, combats on which doesn't seem as demanding as the SEALs have to go through. I am British myself and want to know the true facts about things (I base my oppinions on evidence rather than having a biased oppionion.

ANY THOUGHTS

CHEERS MIKE

[rafaelcb]

I think I read that the SBS have to be able to swim out to a landing craft off shore with Boots, combats on

I have no idea of what the SBS training /selection consists of, but I am pretty sure that it is something more demanding. Anyone who can swimg can climb up an inflatable boat with clothes and boots. It is not difficult at all. :roll:

I would presume any of those units does a lot of underwater training: nitrox, rebreathers, demolitions....

[Trident-za]

I read an excellent book some time ago by an SBS member, but I cannot remember what it was called :(

From what I DO remember, the SBS selection process is incredibly challenging - they go through everything the SAS does, and then a whole lot more. The seem to focus a lot more on kayaking than swimming for the water part, though. Perhaps this is because the sea around the UK is colder than that off the US coast? I don't know - just a wild guess.

[mikec62001]

Thanks very much for your input lads.....I have many books by former SBS members as well as reference books. I think that's a very good assumption about SBS specialising in more Canoes due to the water temperature around the UK. However, you probably well know that SBS ops are world wide. I was just thinking due to the unit being our naval special forces they would base the training on that environment especailly advanced swimming. But I agree.....SBS training has merged with the SAS. Except for specialisation in water where that is done seperate....I THINK.

[Haiw]

as an armchair warrior i'd say kayak's are used cus they are both faster and less tiring than swimming...

[Gordon]

As far as i'm aware, from what i've read, part of the SBS training is extensive diving, underwater navigation; reconnaisance and demolitions along with extensive kayaking and everything you'd expect them to be able to do to operate on the land. The underwater stuff is done in the sea as well as inland lakes etc. Part of the bread and butter of the SBS is beach reconnaisance before amphibious landings.
Part of the SBS's role is an anti-terrorist one. They are responsible for taking control of the North sea oil rigs if one was taken over by terrorists. From what i've read first part of this would consist of travelling on, not in, a compartment on top of submarine, from where they would be released near the target oil rig, swimming underwater to the rig, sending up ladders which they would climb and then take over the rig .... sounds kinda tough to me.
As I said i've got all this from a few books i've read, and I have a mate who's in the Marines that's told me a little about the SBS ... he know's a few guys that are in.

[budanski]

Perhaps this is because the sea around the UK is colder than that off the US coast? I don't know - just a wild guess.

SEALS assigned to subs train and perform operations in the artic all the time. I doubt its the colder water.

[andrew45c]

The SBS are a more rounded sf group than SEALS U.S has a sf for every occasion and instance, whereas we brits have to make do and as a result we have two sf groups that are trained for everything and everywhere, its just a different way of doing things.

[Gordon]

Royal would really be the person to ask about this but he's not around ... :(


SBS training has merged with the SAS
I'm pretty sure, and I also remember reading this in one of Royal's posts, that it is not SBS training that has merged with the SAS it is simply that they run selection together (ie. both SAS and SBS candidates go on the same selection course) following that the SBS candidates who have passed move on to a seperate SBS selection course, while the SAS go their own way.

From my friend in the Marines I understand that there is "interservice training", if that's the way to put, between the two ... he met two SAS men when he was at Poole who were there to attend the SBS diving course. There's also the well know story about one of SAS mobile groups in GW1 being commanded by an SBS officer who was replaced by the SAS RSM, although there was some controversy over whether this was because the RSM wanted in on the action or if the SBS officer had made some justifiably wrong decisions.

Anyway, all of what i've said has been passed on to me by mates or picked up from books so ...

Take it easy.

[Sabre]

Obviously I've not done either SAS or SBS selection/training, but here's the score as far as I know.

The SAS and the SBS have recently started to run selection together. Now, the last part of selection involves a training period. This is partly to see if a candidate is trainable, and also to bring everyone up to the same standard (as recruits can come from any army unit into the SAS, not so the SBS). The topics covered include weapon skills, demolitions, parachuting, vehicle operations (I think?) and jungle training.

It may be that the SBS potentials do this with the SAS hopefuls too. After that, the SBS have to go on to the S/C side of things, the 'Swimmer/Canoeist' course. That's what it's called in the RM. The SBS are fully trained and proficient in the water, on and under it. The use of Kayaks, geminis etc is dependant on the operation. Of course, SBS are all former RM, so they had that hurdle first of all, and the subsequent training and familiarity with sea operations. (mind you, a lot of SAS are ex RM and Para, not an easy ride either)

If, for example, the job was to insert on an uninhabited coast with the aim of setting up an OP on a beach/coastal target 15km away, then they would use a gemini, cache it/bury it, and proceed on foot to the target. You obviously wouldn't swim direct to the beach because:

A: There's more chance of being observed
B: It's very knackering swimming a long way (cos the ship couldn't get close)
C: You can't carry kit for an OP in your wetsuit!

If, however, the job was to plant mines on ships moored in a harbour, you can't use a gemini (although you might, they're fairly quiet) but you could go most of the way on a mini-sub and swim on a bearing (possible!) to the ships and come back. It's knackering but do-able.

Once in, I'm sure both SAS and SBS troopers train with the other if necessary, as they always get the best/most experienced to train the unexperienced. It makes sense.

As far as the SBS officer in the Gulf War ( i don't like GW1/GW2 being used, this last one is realy the 'Iraq war', as it didn't involve any gulf states' armies), that's sort of right.

The officer was a RM captain who'd done SAS selection (not SBS). The problem was that he didn't commit to operations, instead he spent days on the Saudi border claiming he couldn't get over the tank berm. The staff sergeant with him was apparently quite a pessimist and didn't help matters. The RSM (unprecidentidly) was told to take over by the CO and did so.

An interesting point that an ex 264 bloke told me was that quite a lot of Catering Corps officers did selection. The thing was that, as a CC officer, there was little to do on camp, so they could spend much of their time training for selection. Once their 3 year posting was up, they could 're-badge' and serve two years as a captain in an infantry unit before becoming a major, possibly to then do a second tour with the SAS. Not a bad job!

:)

[Royal]

Here we go again.

There has been joint SF selection in the UK since '97. There is much cross training between Hereford and Poole. There is also alot of joint training (at every level). You do not have to be a Royal Marine to join the SBS (this has been true right back to it's post WWII reincarnation).

Canoes have historically been used by both the SBS and SAS (Cockleshell Heroes raid on Bordeaux in WWII) becuase they can carry alot more kit than a swimmer on an SDV or free swimming - up to and including 81mm mortars (G Sqn 22 on the Pebble Island raid in '82 - correct me if I've got the wrong Sqn, it's from memory).

To paraphrase Chops, 'grouchy ol' Royal's back'...

[warchild1/27scout]

The seem to focus a lot more on kayaking than swimming for the water part, though. Perhaps this is because the sea around the UK is colder than that off the US coast? I don't know - just a wild guess.have you guys ever heard of a dry suit. the water temp. does'nt have anything to do with it. i guess if it was tactically practicle they might try to stay above the water but cold water in'st gonna stop the sbs(falkland islands). :)

[burnt by the sun]

from what i've from real SEALs and force recon the SBS is equal to the marines FR. seals are one of the toughest spec ops units i doubt SBS compares cuz everythnig i've read is simililar to FR

[martinexsquaddie]

hahahahah
i think not A royal marine commando is probably the equlilent of force recon
Thats why Brits are always shocked by the USMC they compare them them with Royal Marines whick isn't really fair.
To join SBS/SAS you have to have served at least 3 years in the regulars to join the seals you can go From being a civi Correct?

[USMarine3521]

UK royal Marine equal to a FR Marine!? no way, to join even take the FR indoc. you have to have served 3-5 years and currently hold at least corporal, then if your lucky you can go take the indoc., then if your lucky again you can go to BRC, then serve in Recon btn., then get lucky again you can get selected for Force Recon.

[Co17]

The Seals were created from US Navy UDT teams (Underwater Demoltion Teams) created during WWII to clear beaches and mines so the marines could land. The Seals went on land operations during Vietnam, but amost alwas arrived from the sea. In SOCOM (Special Operations Command) the Seals and Naval special boat squadrons are the Naval component whom's primary mission is water born missions including clearing mines, mapping beaches.
SEALS are the eyes and ears of the fleet. They remain, first and foremost, tactical units in service to the Fleet Commander. David Bohrer The seals began as combat divers and than started raids the SBS mission has alwas been raids,(I think :D ).

As far as marines, the UK are better and US marines are not apart of SOCOM, yet, they now have special operations capable units. I'm not so sure about his, but Marine Force Recon is not the same as it was, they are now purely elite recon troops, where as in Vietnam and the Cold war era they were perphaps the best uncoventional troops around, numbering only a couple hundred at any given time.

[Ratamacue]

UK are better and US marines are not apart of SOCOM, yet, they now have special operations capable units.

They're different. UK Marines are more like the US Army Rangers, a highly elite light infantry force. US Marine Expeditionary Units (Special Operations Capable) are more of a heavy-hitting shock infantry.


I'm not so sure about his, but Marine Force Recon is not the same as it was, they are now purely elite recon troops, where as in Vietnam and the Cold war era they were perphaps the best uncoventional troops around, numbering only a couple hundred at any given time.

Currently, Force Recon STILL numbers only in the couple hundred at a time. And it's quite the opposite, really. In Vietnam, Force Recon's primary job was long-range reconnaissance, and no one was better at what they did.

Today, behind enemy lines long-range reconnaissance primarily belongs to Battalion Recon, who are the elite force that Force Recon is picked from. Force Recon nowadays does more direct action/raid type missions.

[Jack Mehoff]

As far as marines, the UK are better and US marines are not apart of SOCOM, yet, they now have special operations capable units. I'm not so sure about his, but Marine Force Recon is not the same as it was, they are now purely elite recon troops, where as in Vietnam and the Cold war era they were perphaps the best uncoventional troops around, numbering only a couple hundred at any given time


Marine Force Recon is also not part of SOCOM by definintion eventhough they do a lot of special operations.

SOCOM consists of Navy Seal, Delta, Special Forces, PJ, SOAR and psychological operation team I think.

[USMarine3521]

yeah i think thats what he said, but to compare UK Marines and Force Recon?! i am offended!

Force Recon isnt in SOCOM because they are too good for them lol i.e. the USMC doesn't want to lose control of their best.

[Co17]

Like I said I not so sure = I don't know sh*t HeHe :D

I think they were comparing Marines to Royal Marines UK better

SBS to Seals not comparable

[Co17]

By the way, how many marines are there in here

[USMarine3521]

Marine poolee in the DEP, if that even counts haha. :lol:

[seventy6er]

Perhaps a little off-topic, but I gotta question concening the SEALs:

Has anyone heard of the ASDS (advanced seal delivery system)? It was recentyl deploayed with the US Navy. I think it's a small submarine that can take some SEALs/w equipment. Those ASDS's can dock on to LOS ANGELES-class submarines. Anybody got some more info/pics?

Thx.

[seventy6er]

Ok, my lazy ass did some google-ing :roll:

Read this (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/future/seal.html)

or this (http://www.capitolsource.net/press_releases/ngpress062603.html)

or this (http://www.defensedaily.com/reports/seal.pdf)

[budanski]

Perhaps a little off-topic, but I gotta question concening the SEALs:

Has anyone heard of the ASDS (advanced seal delivery system)? It was recentyl deploayed with the US Navy. I think it's a small submarine that can take some SEALs/w equipment. Those ASDS's can dock on to LOS ANGELES-class submarines. Anybody got some more info/pics?

Thx.

Posted Here!! (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3420&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

First Advanced Seal Delivery System Sub Accepted by Navy (http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=15643&archive=true)

http://www.whalecenter.org/sightings/images/sealincage.jpg
Works for delivering large dogs too.

http://www.whalecenter.org/sightings/images/exitcage.jpg
Delivery system in action.

[Royal]

The seals began as combat divers and than started raids the SBS mission has alwas been raids,(I think :D ).

Combat swimming/diving has been a role of the SBS since the inception of the RMBPD (it's direct predecessor) in 1941 - hence the qualification - SC (SwimmerCanoeist).

[1hardmarine]

Normally I dont post, but I just wanted to enlighten some of you guys on the Recon Indoc. Heres what happened to me in 98.

First thing in the morning we did 15mi hump. At the end of the hump there were 40lb rucks waiting on us. we ditched our gear and donned the rucks and ran about 4miles to the O-Course. We ran the O-course twice with a time limit of 2 minutes or less on each run. Then we went to the pool. After a jump out of a tower about 30-50ft high the 500m swim (in cammies) commenced. Next was the brick tow (swim the length of the pool with a 10-15 brick held above the water) and the 30 minute water tread (5 of which is without hands). While treading you were subject to sharking. Team members would drag you below surface and try to harass and disorient you to induce panic. During this period of sharking we would get blasted with a fire hose at random intervals. After the tread we were ordered to get out of the pool and started our PFT (3mi run, max pullups, max setups). To complete the screening we had to get atleast a 1st class PFT score.
If you were selected you were sent the RMAT and BRC (Basic Recon Course) in Coronado, CA. From there you would be sent through the pipeline schools. (Jump, scuba, sniper, SERE, ranger, pathfinder, sf, ect.)
My group started with approximately 35 candidates. Only 7 of us made it through the screening.

For those of you think that Recon marines are a dime a dozen you are mistaken.

[Red]

in my opinion,i think the marines of the MEU(SOC) cadre are some of the toughest guys out there,the only problem is that the marines dont get as much visibility as the army guys do.And in the case of Special operations it is the same as well,i think that the Marines get the short end of the stick but you never hear them complain.

[USMarine3521]

Normally I dont post, but I just wanted to enlighten some of you guys on the Recon Indoc. Heres what happened to me in 98.

First thing in the morning we did 15mi hump. At the end of the hump there were 40lb rucks waiting on us. we ditched our gear and donned the rucks and ran about 4miles to the O-Course. We ran the O-course twice with a time limit of 2 minutes or less on each run. Then we went to the pool. After a jump out of a tower about 30-50ft high the 500m swim (in cammies) commenced. Next was the brick tow (swim the length of the pool with a 10-15 brick held above the water) and the 30 minute water tread (5 of which is without hands). While treading you were subject to sharking. Team members would drag you below surface and try to harass and disorient you to induce panic. During this period of sharking we would get blasted with a fire hose at random intervals. After the tread we were ordered to get out of the pool and started our PFT (3mi run, max pullups, max setups). To complete the screening we had to get atleast a 1st class PFT score.
If you were selected you were sent the RMAT and BRC (Basic Recon Course) in Coronado, CA. From there you would be sent through the pipeline schools. (Jump, scuba, sniper, SERE, ranger, pathfinder, sf, ect.)
My group started with approximately 35 candidates. Only 7 of us made it through the screening.

For those of you think that Recon marines are a dime a dozen you are mistaken.

thanks a lot for the info, but one more question how do you become a candidate for the indoc?

[Sabre]

Lads, here we are again with the whose better.

The role of the RM and USMC are vastly different.

"The authorized strength of the Corps in the late 20th century is 20 percent of that allowed the Navy. (It was about 198,000 in the mid-1980s.)"

"The Royal Marines Command number some 4800 Royal Marines and 1600 personnel from the Royal Navy, Army and RAF. The Corps has a long tradition of producing Royal Marines to high physical and professional standards"

First of all, the USMC is more like a 'shock army' where as the RM are really elite infantry, who are able to deploy from the air sea or land.

One for one, IMHO, a US marine does not compare to a Royal Marine. The likelyhood of a US Marine, cut off from passage of information, to take the initiative is doubtfull. A Royal Marine follows the trend of the rest of the small but very professional British Armed forces by having a large amount of responsibility delegated to him. He therefore is more capable to act independantly and much more likely to succeed if given a small-unit task (ie four man recce patrol).

Don't get me wrong. The USMC is well suited to its role. They are aggressive, determined and well motivated with a very good esprit-de-corps. But they are the vangaurd, a shock force conditioned to take high casualty rates and still go on. (Gulf war, 1991, estimate was 27% casualties, which is why DLB asked to have the british component moved from their flank to the north-western flank of the force)
They are virtually a small army with their own armour, artillary and air assets, able to be sent in as an 'expiditionary force' when a full military commitment isn't needed.

1hardmarine wrote:

"Normally I dont post, but I just wanted to enlighten some of you guys on the Recon Indoc. Heres what happened to me in 98.

First thing in the morning we did 15mi hump. At the end of the hump there were 40lb rucks waiting on us. we ditched our gear and donned the rucks and ran about 4miles to the O-Course. We ran the O-course twice with a time limit of 2 minutes or less on each run. "

My mate joined the RMR (Royal Marine Reserve) last year. He is still doing his basic training and will soon be off for 'Phase 1 bravo'.

On a recent weekend, he had to do the 'Bottom field' assault course twice (including 30ft climb and firemans carry)
He then went on to do the endurance course (2 miles over hill and vale, through tunnels, not nice, I've done it!)
All this was with 22lbs webbing and a 10lbs rifle.
They then proceed to go on a 12 mile forced march (which is in effect a run to make the time) carrying 58lbs plus rifle.

The next day was range day, nice and relaxing.

Just an indication of the reserves' conditioning weekends.

(not slagging you, 1hardmarine, just pointing out that we've got the physical side covered too!)

:)

[Scrim]

Well said Sabre, as a former US Marine I tend to agree with you.
As a French General fighting the British once said "The British infantry is the best in the world; fortunately there are not many of them." ;)

[Co17]

If on wants to know, who, what unit is better, there is only one true proven arena to which this can be measured.............
WHO CAN DRINK MORE BEER :P :P :P :P :P

In this case the Irish infantry is the most high speed, toughest, balls out, snake eating, fire breathing, thunderbolt god, bad*** on the plant.
HeHeHeHe :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[1hardmarine]

Normally I dont post, but I just wanted to enlighten some of you guys on the Recon Indoc. Heres what happened to me in 98.

First thing in the morning we did 15mi hump. At the end of the hump there were 40lb rucks waiting on us. we ditched our gear and donned the rucks and ran about 4miles to the O-Course. We ran the O-course twice with a time limit of 2 minutes or less on each run. Then we went to the pool. After a jump out of a tower about 30-50ft high the 500m swim (in cammies) commenced. Next was the brick tow (swim the length of the pool with a 10-15 brick held above the water) and the 30 minute water tread (5 of which is without hands). While treading you were subject to sharking. Team members would drag you below surface and try to harass and disorient you to induce panic. During this period of sharking we would get blasted with a fire hose at random intervals. After the tread we were ordered to get out of the pool and started our PFT (3mi run, max pullups, max setups). To complete the screening we had to get atleast a 1st class PFT score.
If you were selected you were sent the RMAT and BRC (Basic Recon Course) in Coronado, CA. From there you would be sent through the pipeline schools. (Jump, scuba, sniper, SERE, ranger, pathfinder, sf, ect.)
My group started with approximately 35 candidates. Only 7 of us made it through the screening.

For those of you think that Recon marines are a dime a dozen you are mistaken.

thanks a lot for the info, but one more question how do you become a candidate for the indoc?

There are several ways....

1) since we are hurting for people you can enlist for the Recon (it is enlistment code "UZ"). This guarantees you a shot at indoc. This DOES NOT guarantee you a school seat at the BRC or ARS. If you do not succeed at indoc the first time you will be assigned a new MOS "according to the needs of the Marine Corps." I do not reccommend this route.

2)Enlist as an 0311 and when you get to your unit request permission from your command to go to the recon screening. The guys at your unit will try to prepare you for the screening.

3)If you are not an 0311 you can request permisson to go to the recon screening. I have not seen very many Marines aquired this way. Since most commands do not want to lose highly motivated Marines. You could talk to your career planner (when you hit the fleet) and see what he can work out for you.

I will warn you right now that 90 percent of the guys we dropped at the indoc screening was during the swim portion. If the brick tow didnt get them. Treading water with the "sharks" did.
I recommend you be a WSQ swim qual and a 295+ PFT. When I went to indoc the was swim qual class 1, running a 18.10 3mile, 30+ pullups, 125+ situps/2minutes. The and the swim portion almost claimed me.
Just because you can pass the indoc does not mean you will make it through RMAT and the BRC. ALOT of guys had to be dropped because of the swims or injuries.

[1hardmarine]

Lads, here we are again with the whose better.

The role of the RM and USMC are vastly different.

"The authorized strength of the Corps in the late 20th century is 20 percent of that allowed the Navy. (It was about 198,000 in the mid-1980s.)"

"The Royal Marines Command number some 4800 Royal Marines and 1600 personnel from the Royal Navy, Army and RAF. The Corps has a long tradition of producing Royal Marines to high physical and professional standards"

First of all, the USMC is more like a 'shock army' where as the RM are really elite infantry, who are able to deploy from the air sea or land.

One for one, IMHO, a US marine does not compare to a Royal Marine. The likelyhood of a US Marine, cut off from passage of information, to take the initiative is doubtfull. A Royal Marine follows the trend of the rest of the small but very professional British Armed forces by having a large amount of responsibility delegated to him. He therefore is more capable to act independantly and much more likely to succeed if given a small-unit task (ie four man recce patrol).

Don't get me wrong. The USMC is well suited to its role. They are aggressive, determined and well motivated with a very good esprit-de-corps. But they are the vangaurd, a shock force conditioned to take high casualty rates and still go on. (Gulf war, 1991, estimate was 27% casualties, which is why DLB asked to have the british component moved from their flank to the north-western flank of the force)
They are virtually a small army with their own armour, artillary and air assets, able to be sent in as an 'expiditionary force' when a full military commitment isn't needed.

1hardmarine wrote:

"Normally I dont post, but I just wanted to enlighten some of you guys on the Recon Indoc. Heres what happened to me in 98.

First thing in the morning we did 15mi hump. At the end of the hump there were 40lb rucks waiting on us. we ditched our gear and donned the rucks and ran about 4miles to the O-Course. We ran the O-course twice with a time limit of 2 minutes or less on each run. "

My mate joined the RMR (Royal Marine Reserve) last year. He is still doing his basic training and will soon be off for 'Phase 1 bravo'.

On a recent weekend, he had to do the 'Bottom field' assault course twice (including 30ft climb and firemans carry)
He then went on to do the endurance course (2 miles over hill and vale, through tunnels, not nice, I've done it!)
All this was with 22lbs webbing and a 10lbs rifle.
They then proceed to go on a 12 mile forced march (which is in effect a run to make the time) carrying 58lbs plus rifle.

The next day was range day, nice and relaxing.

Just an indication of the reserves' conditioning weekends.

(not slagging you, 1hardmarine, just pointing out that we've got the physical side covered too!)

:)

Sabre man Im not trying to say that a regular Line Unit in the USMC are harder the the Royal Marine Commandos. I was refering to Recon (Battalion and Force) Marines, which in my opinion are a better elite unit than the regular RM's. Hell I think that Force Recon Marines are as good if not better than Navy SEALs. We dont get as much publicity as the SEALs.

Also, ANY US Marine is taught from day one about leadership and taking charge. To say that a US Marine is less likely to use initiative than a royal marine is ridiculous statement. We train our young marines to carry on even if they lose thier leaders. Ill use Golf 2/5 as an example, in 2002 I was talking to thier 1stSGT he told me that they did not have a single Sergeant in thier company. Corporals were running thier company with Lance Corporals as squad leaders. They had a 2 SSGT's and a Company Gunny. Point, if a 3yr corporal filling a billet of Platoon Sergeant isnt taking charge I dont know what is. I guess what it boils down to is the "Individual" yes we have our ****birds and the royal marines do too.

[deagle]

ROYAL MARINES ... 'nuff said

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2010/1/30/634004143358143465-Royalmarines.jpg

[trunk_munkey28]

Six and a half year necropost?
Something happened to the forum with the format change. There's been wayyy too many of these lately.

[rogueblade]

from what i've from real SEALs and force recon the SBS is equal to the marines FR. seals are one of the toughest spec ops units i doubt SBS compares cuz everythnig i've read is simililar to FR

seals and sbs don't compare? I disagree