Ground War option during Kosovo 1999 conflict? [Archive]

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SerbPVO

09-27-2004, 06:37 PM

Was it really being considered, and if so, what do you think the results would have been if it was launched?

achilles

09-27-2004, 08:59 PM

interesting question...my view is that it was not considered at all...the Serbs have always been tough and lets not forget that when this 'war' took place the Serbs had a 10 year training in real hard core war conditions and no training can simulate the real thing...

I suspect that a gound war would have been much more catastrophic for the Serbian people first of all, but militarily speaking i dont think NATO forces could stand a chance against the serbs...but this is just me....and hypothetical.

Midav

09-27-2004, 09:10 PM

Yosy

09-28-2004, 09:56 AM

I saw a 2 hour documentry recently on the Kosovo War: it featured interviews with Tony Blair, Wesley Clark, Madeline Albright and others.

The option of invading Kosovo was considered and even pushed by the UK. But Clinton realised that an invasion would tear NATO apart and it could trigger WW3.

hist2004

09-28-2004, 11:33 AM

The option of invading Kosovo was considered and even pushed by the UK. But Clinton realized that an invasion would tear NATO apart and it could trigger WW3.

Clinton didn’t want to commit ground troops for fear of opposition in America if causalities
started to mount. Clinton was accused of “staging” the War in Kosovo to divert attention
from his legal troubles dealing with the Paula Jones & Monica Lewinsky scandal’s. An
invasion as you put it wouldn’t tear NATO apart. While both World War's had a history
of starting in the Balkans, it is speculation whether an “unchecked” Milosovich would have
led to a widening conflict in Europe. Fortunately we never had to find out.

Regards,
Hist2004

Royal

09-28-2004, 11:43 AM

Ground war was planned and considered.

The two main reasons for it not being attempted were; the failure of AH64 in pre-operational exercises, and the US refusal to commit them and the Russian insistance on securing VJ facilities in Pristina. The ground commander (Gen Sir Mike Jackson) refused to get into a fight with them, leaving Gen Clarke with no support from his subordinates.

CRAZY MERC

09-28-2004, 07:32 PM

I've read about Gen Sir Mike Jackson. Very wise man. Can't say that about General Clark.

Yosy

09-29-2004, 07:02 AM

An
invasion as you put it wouldn’t tear NATO apart.

This is a little known-fact but NATO was very, VERY fragile during the war. France didn't want to bomb Belgrade and even wanted a political "green-light" for all targets. Things The pilots sometimes had to bomb "dump sites" (places they knew were deserted) to avoid returning with all the equipment on. And when the russians were involved and british and french paratroopers were sent into Kosovo, there was a real possibility of confrontation between NATO and Russia. In the end the Kosovo War, meant as a moral crusade, was made to save NATO from falling apart.

Ike

09-29-2004, 08:00 AM

I doubt it. Clinton wanted this to be as bloodless as possible on the NATO side.

However, had it come to it, the Serbs could have given NATO a bloody nose, but ultimately, they would have been defeated.

Wise thinking. I have the same opinion. It would be total slaughter. Much more worse than it is now in Iraq. Army would not be able to stand against armada, but middle sized untis, both urban and country guerilla, where we have lots of experience would be active. That is our traditional way of fighting. There are not to many us (Kentucky size), but guerilla is what we are raised on, we are told about and our grandfathers were. Like Chechens (though I would erase those child killers from the face of the earth).

It would be hard nut for NATO.

I doubt that the entering resistance (like in Iraq) would be so soft. I am sure that it could not happen for US tank birgade to ride full throtle through Serbia. No way.

And there was over 200.000 soldiers, heavily armed, lots of small special units operating on Kosovo, local residents and resistance would be hard.
Serbs are heavily armed nation. We actually dont need army cache to start a war, everyone has arms in their house (something like Texas:)

However NATO was attacking with Kosovo Liberation Army, every day.
Over 500 KLA members died on mountain Junik trying to enter Kosovo (with all the support form the air) in one day. NATO was sending Albanians to death every day.

We would have been defeated (like Iraq is) but resistance would never stop. And eventually after lots of casulaties, NATO would have to back off and we would be under sanctions fo another 100 years which is much worse than any defeat. Interesting is that in the time of attack Milosevic had less than 20% of people in Serbia backing him up. Lots of people I know would like to see him hanging. But while NATO was attacking us we were not thinking about him at all, just what to do to protect our homeland.

Thanks to God none happened. I like this economic occupation much better.

hist2004

09-29-2004, 10:24 AM

2RHPZ

09-29-2004, 10:40 AM

RATKO

09-29-2004, 06:02 PM

Does someone on this forum knows how many KLA fighters were killed during war?

2RHPZ

09-29-2004, 06:37 PM

Does someone on this forum knows how many KLA fighters were killed during war?

I´m sure there are two or three ... but it is needless to ask.

RATKO

09-29-2004, 06:50 PM

Kosovo today is covered with couple thousands monuments dedicated to dead KLA fighters I saw that last time i was there-2002

Yosy

09-30-2004, 07:06 AM

In the end the Kosovo War, meant as a moral crusade, was made to save NATO from falling apart.

Again, this is speculation. Conducting a war in order to “unit” an alliance is your own conclusion.

Regards,
Hist2004

Not my conclusion. Nowadays, with the end of Soviet Union, NATO is pretty much useless. NATO as an alliance during the Kosovo War was only in paper.

Ike

09-30-2004, 08:35 AM

Over 500 KLA members died on mountain Junik trying to enter Kosovo (with all the support form the air) in one day. NATO was sending Albanians to death every day.

This is nonsense.

Army would not be able to stand against armada, but middle sized untis, both urban and country guerilla, where we have lots of experience would be active. That is our traditional way of fighting.

I agree, there are no doubts. But I am still convinced that you wouldn´t be able to keep Kosovo province.

It would be total slaughter. Much more worse than it is now in Iraq.

This is speculation. I don´t think so ...

Have you been there? Do you know how many times and how many KLA terorsits tryed to enter in Kosovo from Albania during the war?
What is your source of information? And how come you may state that this is a nonsense?

-----
This week, fighting erupted between the KLA, trying to seize the strategic town of Orahovac near the Kosovo border with Albania, and Serb police and Yugoslav army troops. The town fell under Serb control Monday after superior armed weaponry was used against the KLA fighters. Heavy Albanian KLA losses -an initial figure put the total at 110- were reported.

---------
Vast amounts of ammunition and weapons, in addition to armed KLA supporters, have been crossing back and forth between Kosovo and Albania since the crisis -- which has left over 400 people killed and 300 missing -- began in February.

----------
The official death toll from last week's violence is 46 ethnic Albanians and six Serb police. The Albanians say at least 77 of their kin died in two police sweeps through a region west
--------------

You seem like a resonable guy. If you have the chance to buy a book "Second Kosovo War" written by Milovan Drecun (lots of pictures)
you will find detailed actions against KLA and pictures with fields covered with their bodies.. Guy was reporter who spent all time of war in the first lines..

http://www.beo-books.de/deutsch/catalog/sopub_ae.htm (last three books)

hist2004

09-30-2004, 09:58 AM

sp2c

09-30-2004, 11:30 AM

Does someone on this forum knows how many KLA fighters were killed during war?

I´m sure there are two or three ... but it is needless to ask.
I know the incidents that prompted the war included the annihilation of several dozen of kla 'guerillas' as they tried to cross down the mountains into kosovo without nightvision equipment.

sp2c

09-30-2004, 11:33 AM

I think your observation of the NATO Alliance is interesting. Many in the United States
see the UN in the same light. History has shown (post WWII) us that no matter what
conflict or potential conflict threatens the free world; the US is the one providing most
of the manpower and treasure. Countries don’t have “friends or allies” they have interests.
NATO is subject to the same squabbling between countries as the UN. If the NATO countries
can’t agree on how to proceed (example Kosovo) when will they form a consensus? Only
during an invasion of one of their countries? Does the EU plan on fielding a credible military
force to deal with threats to their members? If NATO & the UN are an example (in regards
to use of military force) the EU is better off not fielding a EU military response alliance.

Regards,
Hist2004
I partly agree with this.

I think an integrated European defence force is not going to happen since we can't see eye to eye on anything but I disagree that an EU military response force can't be usefull.

Just don't pool entire militaries into the force and supply battallion or brigade strenght units to train together and workout logistics and communications so that everyone in the EU can work with anyone in the EU to form a greater force much more easily (faster, cheaper) then it is done right now.

hist2004

09-30-2004, 12:26 PM

Yosy

09-30-2004, 03:26 PM

Nowadays, with the end of Soviet Union, NATO is pretty much useless. NATO as an alliance during the Kosovo War was only in paper.

I think your observation of the NATO Alliance is interesting. Many in the United States
see the UN in the same light. History has shown (post WWII) us that no matter what
conflict or potential conflict threatens the free world; the US is the one providing most
of the manpower and treasure. Countries don’t have “friends or allies” they have interests.
NATO is subject to the same squabbling between countries as the UN. If the NATO countries
can’t agree on how to proceed (example Kosovo) when will they form a consensus? Only
during an invasion of one of their countries? Does the EU plan on fielding a credible military
force to deal with threats to their members? If NATO & the UN are an example (in regards
to use of military force) the EU is better off not fielding a EU military response alliance.

Regards,
Hist2004

NATO was designed to counter the Soviet Union in the Cold War era. With the end of USSR, there is no need for NATO anymore. Lets not forget that, unlike the UN, NATO is purely a military alliance. Most disagreements in the UN happen when the question of peacekeeping intervention arrises. But, although this gets 90% media coverage, its probably just 10% of UN's functions. The EU has a military rapid response alliance and is planning to form an effective military alliance.

Countries don’t have “friends or allies” they have interests

That is SO true.

2RHPZ

09-30-2004, 05:36 PM

sp2c

10-01-2004, 07:42 AM

It is arguable if even deploying a “smaller force” as you suggest would lead to
a general consensus. Depending on the crisis, let’s use France’s deployment
to Bunia for example. Perhaps France’s interests there don’t necessarily square
with say Belgium’s take on the situation. Is Belgium still obligated to supply
manpower and treasure, which may draw them into a fight that they can argue
isn’t there’s to begin with. If the EU field’s a military force to contend with growing
world crisis’s they will encounter the same issues the US has with UN & NATO
military involvement.

Regards,
Hist2004

no you don't understand, I'm not a big fan of the current way it's being done where for instance the Netherlands and Germany form a single brigade, because indeed what's going to happen if the Dutch government wants to deploy these troops to Iraq?

What I meant is that all countries should be able to work with eachother in detachments of varying sizes so for instance if the Netherlands wants to go to Iraq and Germany doesn't then the Dutch forces should be able to integrate with Italians for instance. So we need a standardized chain of command, logistics and communication lines etc. (I don't think we all need to have the same equipment but we do need a similar way of resupplying it)

So I'm against specialisation of nations, A lot of people here think we should go all airforce or all navy because we are to small to maintain a full spectrum fighting force ... then what happens if the country that's supposed to supply the ammunition doesn't want to go to war?

edit: I hope that makes as much sense in english as it does in my head though ;)
for now I think we all should stick with NATO

firefighter from the moon

12-27-2004, 02:56 PM

Does someone on this forum knows how many KLA fighters were killed during war?

I´m sure there are two or three ... but it is needless to ask.

greatest part of serb's victims, were children!
Tipical!

shadower

12-27-2004, 11:25 PM

Like this little baby that was burned alive by heroic KLA!
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/kim/

Catch22

12-27-2004, 11:59 PM

Shadower, don't...

Posting those proofs of UCK cruelty you can possibly accomplish two goals, none of them you probably intend to reach.
First you provoke any of your opponents to post analogical pictures of Serbian villanous deeds. I wish to assure you that we don't expect to watch more horendous crimes to be commited by both sides. We can freely assume that both sides got their hands bloody - history of last conflicts in Balkans teached us thus far...
Secondly - if you havent noticed, we all wish Utopia for ourselves, but why you people have this sensless urge to slaughter each other on every given chance? No integrity? Ancient grudges? The more we see it the less we understand and succesively - care. There are some more important things in this world than endless circle of vendetta.

Fearless1

12-28-2004, 02:40 PM

NATO ground war only began being seriously considered in the last week of th war. When they thought that Russians may not be able to convince Milosevic to give up.

It was mostly Britain's innitiative to start the air campaign, and they were the fiercest propagators of a Ground War.
NATO began the bombing thinking that a few bombs will show Milosevic and Serbs on how determined they are to stop him from commiting massacres. But they were wrong.

And as the time went by NATO frustration increased, so they also increased the number of aircraft, and they also expanded their "targets".
At first they were only hitting military objectives, but later they decided to hit Serbian state TV, manufacturing plant, bridges etc.

Clinton did not want to employ ground troops, as long as there was hope of air campaign working. If Milosevic did not surrender, after the talks with Russia. Then there is no doubt a ground war would have been on its way.
NATO would have not been split up because of it.. That is the most absurd thing i ever heard. If NATO was to be split so easily then would have been split up during this last war with Iraq.

Serbian troops giving high casualties to NATO on groudn war??? WTF was that?
Even KLA, a bunch of lightly armed amateurs managed to free 2/3 of Kosova in Summer of 1998.
And in the last month of the war, they broke the albanian border an got in 20 KM inside Kosova.
Iraq during Gulf War was far more superior in training crew and equipment but they got slaughtered by NATO.
How would excactly Serbs give a bloody nose to NATO? Guerilla? What Guerilla?
NATO would have not advanced into Serbia, they would only free Kosova.
NATO troops finally went into Kosova, but instead of having any gerilla resistance from Serbs they only got Serbs running to them for protection against albanian mobs.

If you count KLA casualties from the Serb Propaganda you will end up with a huge figure. But from 10 000 dead, only about 500-1000 were KLA, the rest were civilians.

Basically Serbs should be thanking God that they surrendered just in time. Or they would have got slaughtered. :-*$

RATKO

12-28-2004, 03:44 PM

Again Does someone have KLA KIA figures?

bison3255

12-28-2004, 05:55 PM

Baltic

12-28-2004, 08:03 PM

Serbian resistance would have killed enough NATO troops to turn it into a second Vietnam. Unlike the Iraqis they actually have semi modern weapons capable of knocking out Abrams and Bradleys, semi modern SAMs capable of bringing down Apaches and Cobras, and quite probably very modern russian weapons would mysteriously turn up there :roll:

No ****? :D

Anybody remembers the story how two US Apaches crashed in Albania? Remember seeing photo some time ago, but what was the story???

bloddyaxe

12-28-2004, 09:57 PM

goldman

12-28-2004, 10:35 PM

Man im going to be honest here the only larg number of Kla was killed during the kosovo conflict was the incident in border with albania trying to smugle weapons they were ambushed. The number was 43...............KLA didnt loose to many of its people this is the reality. Saddly the innocent people payed the havy price in both sides.
And for the ground war im glad it didnt happen, lets face it serbs wouldnt have stand a chance no matter of their experience. You guys have no idea how close WW3 came. Nato pilots were given orders to shoot down any russian aircraft that entered kosovo territory. And i dont think many people know in this forum that there were camps inside kosovo, rest of my family where in, they were actualy hostages. Man of age 13 and up were warned by kla not to surrendor to those camps because before they were taken to serbia and still to this day their remains remain in botanica airfield, Serbia. I hate this topic really cuz people in both sides have suffered. War is no pretty.

Metak

12-29-2004, 04:37 AM

Fearless1

12-29-2004, 10:43 AM

goldman

12-29-2004, 11:53 AM

Man KLA didnt suffer to many casualties and that is truth. Population payed the heavy price. So all of u can stop this propaganda ****.

goldman

12-29-2004, 12:03 PM

goldman

12-29-2004, 12:20 PM

Any ways i mean no disrespect to any one im out of here cant stand this topic. Even though after 6 years and lot of people died, we seem ready to do it all over again.

Metak

12-29-2004, 12:48 PM

First there is no such thing as Metohija, only Kosova. So dont confuse our international audience in here with serbian trash.

Im glad your accepting that you lost 2/3 of Kosova to KLA. And the consequent combined Serbian army and police counter attack pushed KLA into mountains. They hardly had any casualties.
The only casualties were 600 wiped out villages and towns (and loads of civilians), due to artillery.
Serbs always used artillery excesively, before they moved into any place. That is why they never found any KLA when they arrived there.

Here is the CNN reporter telling hes eye witness account of the start of the operation "shigjeta", that saw the albanian-kosova border collapse..

http://www.lhric.org/validation/war/articles/cnn.html

Name "Metohia" is more than one millenium old. It is derived from Greek word "methos" which means area belonging to Church (or something like that). That name was given because there were many Orthodox Christian churches built by Serbs. That's the reason why Albanians skip that word. Where did you read that I had accepted that we lost 2/3 of Kosovo&Metohia?
About CNN - I don't trust them much, they said that Serbs killed Albanian politician Ibrahim Rugova in march 1999, but he is
president of Kosovo now.

Metak

12-29-2004, 12:50 PM

Even KLA, a bunch of lightly armed amateurs managed to free 2/3 of Kosova in Summer of 1998.
And in the last month of the war, they broke the albanian border an got in 20 KM inside Kosova.

HHAHAHA tell me then which parts of Kosovo&Metohia were occupied by albanian terrorists? After our military destoyed them in 1998 there were no more of them except few small isolated groups. Others were in Albania. Despite NATO bombing, shelling of our troops by Albania's artillery (regular forces of Albanian army, not terorists) KLA wasn't able to broke our border line - that is the fact.

If you count KLA casualties from the Serb Propaganda you will end up with a huge figure. But from 10 000 dead, only about 500-1000 were KLA, the rest were civilians.

Yeah, civilians armed with mortars and rifles.

And actualy they did brake through u're lines, battle of koshare. And albanian army artiallary had nothing to do with it. In numors of times u guys attacked albania. Quit the opposite. I have lot of pics from the battle of koshare but i dont know how to post them. Tanks blown up and APCs. And as far as us beeing terrorists im not surprised coming from u, frankly i dont give a **** what u say. woot. And when will u serbs learn to live in denile and apologize to what u have done, damn kla did some crimes to but u cant even compare it to u're people. :bash:

Koshare is not line, it is object in the line and there were troops behind it, so I say one more time - terorists didn't broke it. And it was recaptured after few days.
Comunists have built that nice object for only one purpose - to show Albanians how we in Yugoslavia live good (very stupid). Officers thought it is unable to hold position there, but soldiers had proven that it is not true. There weren't destoyed tanks and APCs on Koshare because Koshare is very hilly so armor couldn't reach it. Our tanker drove 2 T-55s there, but with great effort and they didn't make much dammage to terrorists so they retreated. I don't know where did you get those pics, perhaps on "Srpski oklop" website?

RATKO

12-29-2004, 06:23 PM

Man KLA didnt suffer to many casualties and that is truth. Population payed the heavy price. So all of u can stop this propaganda ****.
So all those monuments dedicated to fallen KLA heroes i saw last time i was there are one big hoax?
How many KLA fighters died fighting against 549th brigade around Prizren?Or when 15th armoured cleared the road to Podujevo?

Fearless1

12-30-2004, 10:40 PM

There were 2500 total amount of KLA soldiers dead.. Is it a lot?? that's a matter of subjectivity.
KLA dead are all recorded, and given their proper honours. Maybe, the invalids of the war could be having a better treatment.

But one thing is for sure. Whatever figure serbs give about their dead is going to be bull****. They families of the dead serbs never had any honour bestwoed upon them. They were lied about how their sons died, and when they died. That's because they are people without honour.

RATKO

12-31-2004, 03:49 AM

There were 2500 total amount of KLA soldiers dead..
But in one of your previous posts you said 500-1000 UCK were KIA during the war

Kapedani

01-04-2005, 09:49 AM

First of all, there never was any Albanian military artillery fire accross the border. There was Albanian military artillery fire...but that was against Serb forces INSIDE Albania. On at least two occasions Albanian army forces and Serb forces clashed...and both times the Serbs were repelled with heavy losses and thouroughly defeated...losing 70 men for no Albanian casualties.

Second of all, KLA was alwyas active in Kosova. In 1998 it controlled 2/3s of Kosova's territory...and at that point in time it was fighting against several thousand Serb police, military and paramilitary. True, Serbs drove them out of a lot of places, becasue they poured in their army...and carried out massive ethnic cleansing and attacks against civilians...but KLA still held out in the rural areas. How do you figure there were 400,000 internally displaced people in Kosova. They were hiding in the mountains and forests from the Serb Army...but the KLA was protecting them and was there with them.

Of the 20,000 men the KLA had under arms in 1999...at least 5,000 were operating inside Kosova at any one time. I personally had friends fighting inside Kosova at the time...including an ex-Albanian army snaiper who had more than his share of kills of Serb soldiers :D

Thirdly, it was impossible to get tanks and vehicles to Koshare?? Strange...becasue I have plenty of pictures as well as videos of whole colomns of Albanian Army tanks just accross the border from there. Serb tanks were there...and they did even engage in firing accross the border into Albania...and yes they suffered heavy losses.

KLA may have suffered 2 thousand casualties...but when you consider it was a lightly armed guerilla movement taking on an army...and the Serbs lost 5 thousand men...than it is clear who won. Same in Macedonia...NLA losses weren't even 1/3 of what the Macedonian Army lost.

Metohia may be a thousand years old...but Albanians have been living there for the past 5 thousand years. The land was indeed given to the Serbian church...and its inhabitants enslaved by it. Thats why there is no more "metohia"...now there is only Dardania!!!

Lokos

01-04-2005, 12:09 PM

Ohhh, sunshine, let's have some fun!

First of all, there never was any Albanian military artillery fire accross the border. There was Albanian military artillery fire...but that was against Serb forces INSIDE Albania. On at least two occasions Albanian army forces and Serb forces clashed...and both times the Serbs were repelled with heavy losses and thouroughly defeated...losing 70 men for no Albanian casualties.

What a load of tripe. Source, please? (I already know it's total rubbish, I'd just like to see what you manage to fish out of your ass to back this up)

Second of all, KLA was alwyas active in Kosova. In 1998 it controlled 2/3s of Kosova's territory...and at that point in time it was fighting against several thousand Serb police, military and paramilitary. True, Serbs drove them out of a lot of places, becasue they poured in their army...and carried out massive ethnic cleansing and attacks against civilians...but KLA still held out in the rural areas. How do you figure there were 400,000 internally displaced people in Kosova. They were hiding in the mountains and forests from the Serb Army...but the KLA was protecting them and was there with them.

1) Kosovo*
2) The KLA wasn't protecting anyone from anything. I came across my fair share of Kosovar Albanian refugee columns during 1998-1999. Rest assured, if we wanted them dead, they would have been.

Of the 20,000 men the KLA had under arms in 1999...at least 5,000 were operating inside Kosova at any one time. I personally had friends fighting inside Kosova at the time...including an ex-Albanian army snaiper who had more than his share of kills of Serb soldiers Very Happy

The KLA was crushed beyond recognition in 1999. Given two weeks without bombing, and the VJ would have utterly destroyed that organization.

Your friend the 'ex-Albanian Army sniper Serb-killer', huh? Not altogether surprising. The only time we ever had any trouble against KLA scum was when there were snipers involved. And let's not beat around the bush, shall we? For ever Serb soldier the KLA managed to kill, anywhere between ten and fifteen Albanian insurgents would fall. I accept that exchange rate in guerilla warfare.

Thirdly, it was impossible to get tanks and vehicles to Koshare?? Strange...becasue I have plenty of pictures as well as videos of whole colomns of Albanian Army tanks just accross the border from there. Serb tanks were there...and they did even engage in firing accross the border into Albania...and yes they suffered heavy losses.

You realise that during the entire war the VJ lost a grand total of 13 tanks, 3 of which were destroyed by RPG's, and none of which were destroyed in tank vs tank combat, don't you? The other 10 were hit by NATO bombing. Really scary losses there, considering there were well over 300 tanks of the 3rd Army in Kosovo during 1999.

KLA may have suffered 2 thousand casualties...but when you consider it was a lightly armed guerilla movement taking on an army...and the Serbs lost 5 thousand men...than it is clear who won. Same in Macedonia...NLA losses weren't even 1/3 of what the Macedonian Army lost.

It's statements like the above that make my day complete. Five thousand VJ losses? What kind of crack are you smoking? I was there buddy, and these are facts you have to face: for every Serbian soldier you somehow managed to kill (sheer luck, most of the time), we put down anywhere between ten and fifteen of you, on average. Not because we were supermen who could kill at will, but because we totally outclassed you in training, experience and equipment. So don't feel too bad. But do wake up to *reality*.

Metohia may be a thousand years old...but Albanians have been living there for the past 5 thousand years. The land was indeed given to the Serbian church...and its inhabitants enslaved by it. Thats why there is no more "metohia"...now there is only Dardania!!!

Dardania, eh? Still sticking to the Illyrian ancestry jest? Whoah, you people have serious issues. And... I won't even comment on the 'past 5 thousand years' thing. You're an idiot, suffice it to say.

Regards,
Lokos

Kapedani

01-04-2005, 02:35 PM

What a load of tripe. Source, please? (I already know it's total rubbish, I'd just like to see what you manage to fish out of your ass to back this up)

Source?? Albanian MoD magazine "Mbrojtja" (Defense)...First Serbian incurrsion was 2km inside Albania at Kamenica...was repelled with artillery and troops with heavy Serbian losses. Second incurrsion happened 2 days later...Serbs tried to advance on the Kukes-Bajram Curri road to cut off KLA supplies...Albanian Army had learned of this earlier and set up an ambush with artillery tanks and heavy machine guns...Serbs were caught thoroughly defeated and thrown back...again with heavy casualties. Albanian forces involved in the operation were those of the Kukesi Division. Serbian losses were 70...Albanian losses were zero.

The Albanian army had two divisions at the border...the Kukesi and the Laberia Divisions...armed with Type-59 tanks, heavy artillery and HJ-8 anti-tank missiles. Following the two major clashes with the Serb forces...the Albanian army held tank firing excercises on the border to make it clear to the Serbs such a thing would not be tolerated again...and no Serb incurrsion happened after that.

Albanian Army Type-59 tanks on the border.
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8040.jpg

1) Kosovo*

We'll say it anyway we want it...its ours not yours. BTW the name on the flag says DARDANIA...better get used to it.

2) The KLA wasn't protecting anyone from anything. I came across my fair share of Kosovar Albanian refugee columns during 1998-1999. Rest assured, if we wanted them dead, they would have been.

LOL...you didn't want them dead...you wanted them robbed of their possesions and expelled. A dead refugee is trouble...a live one is money and goods for YOU. I know...trust me...I came accross my fair share of those refugees too ;)

The KLA was crushed beyond recognition in 1999. Given two weeks without bombing, and the VJ would have utterly destroyed that organization.

LOL...Yes if you use Milo's mentality who in March 1999 was saying KLA only had 500 members left...while in fact they had 10,000 soldiers...and by May 1999 they had 20,000 soldiers. According to NATO itself the KLA had over 5,000 soldiers inside Kosova in March before the bombing...and another 5,000 in Albania. You were nowhere near defeating the KLA or even driving it out of any part of Kosova...they continued operations throughout the war in every province of Kosova. You did good in expelling and massacring civilians in big cities...so KLA was forced out that way in most areas...

And all the meanwhile...you suffering more and more casualties to them...

By May 1999 US and NATO estimates say KLA had over 20,000 soldiers under arms, with 15,000 of them inside Kosova at any one time. You were defeating them...and yet they grow 3 times bigger in 3 months?? Doesn't make much sense...

Looking at NATO information about KLA activity, in late May KLA was carrying out combat operations in the areas west of Mitrovica, next to Podujev, north of Prishtina, east of Decan, west of Peja, west and south of Urosevac and of course the areas of the border. So essencially, they were still carrying out operations in every part of Kosova...and they were growing stronger and stronger by the day.

Your friend the 'ex-Albanian Army sniper Serb-killer', huh? Not altogether surprising. The only time we ever had any trouble against KLA scum was when there were snipers involved. And let's not beat around the bush, shall we? For ever Serb soldier the KLA managed to kill, anywhere between ten and fifteen Albanian insurgents would fall. I accept that exchange rate in guerilla warfare.

LOL...absolutely untrue. As was said we know how many soldiers the KLA lost. They were all given proper burrials and recognized for their heroic acts. But that just doesn't add up to 10 to 1...actually it comes out to closer to 1 to 1 or 2 to 1...on KLA's side!! Serbs lost 5,000 soldiers, policeman and paramilitaries and 10,000 wounded...confirmed numbers from NATO as well as KLA sources.

The only thing the Serbs managed to kill 10 to 1 were unarmed civilians....10,000 of them.

BTW I was told they did some pretty good work with their RPGs and Armburst rockets supplied by the Albanian Army ;)

You realise that during the entire war the VJ lost a grand total of 13 tanks, 3 of which were destroyed by RPG's, and none of which were destroyed in tank vs tank combat, don't you? The other 10 were hit by NATO bombing. Really scary losses there, considering there were well over 300 tanks of the 3rd Army in Kosovo during 1999.

Albanian tanks never engaged Serbian tanks...though both were present during the Serbian incurrsion towards the Kukes-Bajram Curri road. Serb tanks were firing from their side of the border but didn't do anything. Albanian tanks were engaging Serb infantry which crossed the border...not accross it.

VJ lost 13 tanks??? LOL...you do realize thats BS....confirmed BS...becasue I have seen pictures of DOZENS more lost Serb tanks in Kosova. Have you seen the graveyards in Kosova full of blown up T-55s?? Just in one village I have pictures of at least 4 M-84s laying destroyed. NATO itslef confirms at least 90 destroyed Serbian tanks from their bombs alone...KLA got even more. During a single operation using Armbrust rockets KLA destroyed 3 tanks, 2 APCs and 2 SPAAAs.

Now I know the Serbs claim 13 lost tanks...but then again they also claimed 140 shot down NATO aircraft ;) Funny thing is Serbs claimed 13 lost tanks...and said 10 of them were taken back to Serbia so there should be only 3 tanks left behind in Kosova. Well...you can count can't you Serbo?? Look at the bottom of this post and COUNT the number of destroyed Serbian tanks. Add up to 3 to you??? Or even 13??? LOL

Not to mention KLA even managed to capture and put into operation a Serb T-55 (again confirmed with pictures)

It's statements like the above that make my day complete. Five thousand VJ losses? What kind of crack are you smoking? I was there buddy, and these are facts you have to face: for every Serbian soldier you somehow managed to kill (sheer luck, most of the time), we put down anywhere between ten and fifteen of you, on average. Not because we were supermen who could kill at will, but because we totally outclassed you in training, experience and equipment. So don't feel too bad. But do wake up to *reality*.

Well I also know people who were there...and these things are confirmed by sources much more trustworthy than you.

Funny but Macedonian Army also outclasses them in training and equipment...and yet NLA wipped the floor with them. They can't cry and say NATO defeated them...becasue this time its clear who defeated them...

Dardania, eh? Still sticking to the Illyrian ancestry jest? Whoah, you people have serious issues. And... I won't even comment on the 'past 5 thousand years' thing. You're an idiot, suffice it to say.

LOL...ok. Well everyone knows where you are from...the taiga...everyone also knows where we are from...Iliria. What happened Serbs?? Too tired of trying to prove your historical presence in the region by the number of churches you build.

------

And these are just the TIP of the icberg...only the few photos we have available of what was destroyed...but even with these few fotos it is clear the Serbs lost a HELL of a lot more tan 13 tanks. Enjoy:

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8026.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8027.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8028.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8029.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8030.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8031.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8032.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8034.jpg

not a tank...but still interesting
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8035.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8039.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8042.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8045.jpg

http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8046.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/natotank01.jpg

Oh I know the Serbs claim these "old" vehicles were really just "decoys" (placed in dug-ins for some reason)...but the fact is Serbs used plenty of T-34s and this "old" American tanks in Kosova and still use them. They'r not decoys...they'r the real deal.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/natotank02.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/ainc01.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/m84-kosovo-wreck.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/ainc02.jpg

http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2000/0700find4.jpg

http://www.unops.or.jp/image_j/photogallery_j/images/010630KosovoScene1_jpg.jpg

http://www.unops.or.jp/image_j/photogallery_j/images/010815SerbTankMalisheve_jpg.jpg

http://www.speedybyers.co.uk/kos99/m84.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/unclesam12_99/Gifs/b990916y.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k12.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k14.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k15.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k25.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k30.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k16.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k17.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k18.gif

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Gifs/k21.gif

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2000/0800kosovo3.jpg

Uuuuh...
http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2000/0800kosovo1.jpg

Also just for fun...Serb SA-6 destroyed

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2000/0800kosovo4.jpg

So do tell me...how many destroyed Serb tanks do you see in these pictures??? :D

shadower

01-04-2005, 03:58 PM

Some of that thanks and recovery vehicles are Shermans that were not operative for long before 1999 and many of armored vehicles on your photos were found in Yugoslav army bases and they were not hit by NATO they were not operative before NATO atack.Some of forum members here that was part of KFOR said that they made numerous field trips and could not find more than 12 destroyed tanks.And photos of military vehicles graveyard are I beleive vehicles that were destroyed in Vukovar Croatia.And here is what CNN said and we can remember they were against Serbia in their media war.

Pentagon concedes it destroyed fewer Kosovo tanks than claimed

May 9, 2000
Web posted at: 2:33 a.m. EDT (0633 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The number of bombed-out Serb tanks and other weaponry found in Kosovo at the end of last year's air war was only a small fraction of the total the United States and NATO claimed to have destroyed. But officials insist the much higher estimates still hold up.

At the end of the 78 day NATO-led war against Yugoslavia, a NATO report on the campaign said air strikes had destroyed an estimated 93 tanks, 153 armored personnel carriers and 389 artillery pieces.

Pentagon officials Monday said assessment teams that searched "on the ground" in Kosovo following the conflict found the bombed-out wreckage of only 14 tanks, 12 "self propelled artillery vehicles," 18 armored personnel carriers, 8 artillery and mortar pieces and 142 other military vehicles.

shadower

01-04-2005, 04:15 PM

Everithing they hit is on this videos and you can see is mostly buildings!

http://www.nato.int/kosovo/video.htm

Metak

01-04-2005, 04:19 PM

So do tell me...how many destroyed Serb tanks do you see in these pictures??? :D

Few tanks, cars, self propeled AA weapon and Shermans which were used as decoys, not much so it doesn't prove anything. We were talking about tanks destroyed on border line but you posted pics of wrecks in settlements so it doesn't prove anything again. The rest of your bovine speech is not worth to comment.

shadower

01-04-2005, 04:21 PM

And!

On the 10th of September 1999, Geoff Walden took pictures of several Serb AFVs, collected at a British military post on the outskirts of Pristina, Kosovo. Included in the lineup was one M32B1 TRV. These vehicles were apparently undamaged (see more of these vehicles at Geoff Walden's page.)
Apart from having been repainted and given the number '3375' on the turret, this vehicle remains in the configuration is was built in half a century ago.

Kapedani

01-04-2005, 07:09 PM

Ok first of all we were talking about TOTAL Serb tanks destroyed in Kosova...not just border.

Second, EVERY single tank in those pictures is destroyed...most of them catastrohically. So they are not abandoned vehicles or anything of the sort.

Third, NONE are from Vukovar or whatever else you may say. Serb Army moved destroyed hulks from Croatia to Kosova?? Why?? In fact, the graveyards were created by US soldiers from vehicles they found in the fields...they weren't there already.

Fourth, 99.9% of the vehicles in those pictures are catastrophically destroyed...so your explonation of Serbs "forgetting" vehicles or whatever in Kosova is ridiculous.

Fifth, Serbs STILL continue to use those ancinet tanks like M-18 and T-34...both you and I know it...they were used recently in 2001 against UCPMB.

Sixth, I really could care less what CNN says about it...14 tanks or no 14 tanks...you have eyes...you can COUNT the number of destroyed tanks and then you can send an e-mail to CNN telling them they are wrong.

Few tanks, cars, self propeled AA weapon and Shermans which were used as decoys, not much so it doesn't prove anything.

FEW tanks??? Well...lets see...since clearly you don't want to count the number of tanks...becasue you'r affraid you'll find something out unplesant...I'll count them for you. This constitutes a FEW tanks??

In those pictures you can clearly see at least 11 M-84s destroyed, at least 12 T-55 destroyed, and at least 5 other tanks destroyed. Thats a total of 28 destroyed tanks. So what is CNN talking about??? These are just 28 tanks from a few random pictures I was able to get on the internet...and only 28 tanks of what the Serbs left behind...not counting the vehciles they did carry away with them.

Only the single Sherman in the pictures...is not a tank used by the Serbs in combat. That single Sherman was at a Serb base but not used. I'll give you that...but thats one tank...and there are 28 others ;) M-18s and the rest were most certainly used. Also T-34s were used.

So CNN or no CNN...pictures don't lie...Serbia lost a LOT more than it claims it lost or what journalists calim they lost. NATO still claims 93 destroed Serbian tanks as confirmed...and those were confirmed by their teams who examined each and every case when they attacked a tank, and besides the dozens of burned hulks they found, also traces of tanks and other destroyed vehicles having been removed from the scene.

So...care to still keep up your charade of having suffered little damage??? Serb Army had 350 tanks in Kosova...only 200 came out.

I have...of course...plenty of other pictures of other destroyed Serbian vehicles, APCs, IFVs and artillery...but I didnt post them becasue this was about the tanks.

Some of forum members here that was part of KFOR said that they made numerous field trips and could not find more than 12 destroyed tanks

Well I found them for them :D

Everithing they hit is on this videos and you can see is mostly buildings!

Yes...becasue EVERYTHING they hit in 15,000 combat missions is in that webpage :roll:

The rest of your bovine speech is not worth to comment.

Noooo.... :(

Kapedani

01-04-2005, 07:17 PM

shadower

01-04-2005, 08:02 PM

On the 10th of September 1999, Geoff Walden took pictures of several Serb AFVs, collected at a British military post on the outskirts of Pristina, Kosovo. Included in the lineup was one M32B1 TRV. These vehicles were apparently undamaged (see more of these vehicles at Geoff Walden's page.)

In the British sector several vehicles were taken undamaged...and what's your point??? Do you SEE any such vehicles in the pictures I posted??? You do have eyes...use them instead of telling me of something else.

this vehicle remains in the configuration is was built in half a century ago

And your point is??? The vehicle was painted and given a number for what reason...to look good in Goeff Walden's pictures?? Fact is...Serbs used these WW2 era vehicles on a large scale...and they still do in fact. I have seen pictures of Serb M-18s in Preshev in 2000-2001.

Point is that shermans are abandoned when VJ was leaving Kosovo and two from your pics are from this web page first and last pic wich clearly sais they were abandoned.You can clearly see some other vehicles that don't show sign of demage but signs of cannibalisam and you can also see some other vehicles they are Gaz I think and they are clearly undemaged.And if Shermans and T34_s were used in buffer zone it is because we should not use anithing that fire amo ower 100mm in that area.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/yu.htm

Kapedani

01-04-2005, 08:20 PM

Ok...either you are playing dumb...or you actually are. Do you see the pictures?? Do you see the tanks?? 99% of them are CATASTROPHICALLY destroyed. They are not used for spares...a tank with its turret blown off...hasn't been used for spares :lol:

I already gave you the Sherman...it was abandoned...becasue its not a vehicle the Serbs use anymore. But the rest of them...they do use...they'r not decoys (the Sherman wasn't a decoy either...it was just sitting in a base)

Again...thats 28 destroyed tanks...count them yourself. Now you'r just playing around and saying no its 27...ok...its 27...either way just from a few pictures on the net...and you end up with double the number of tanks the Serbs claim as having lost.

Please explain ;)

Either you are lying...or I can't count.

shadower

01-04-2005, 09:01 PM

I don't say they are not there but,some of the photos are photos of same grave yard from diferent angles(all grave yard photos), then second you have to make sure you don't count tank bodies and then turets and count them as tanks because turets are probably of that bodies (and maby that tanks on grave yard are same vehicles from other photos only now collected and on one place) and third if they are there with blown turet it doesnt have to be that Nato destroy them maby they are targets from VJ tank shooting range wich Kfor collected and put there etc,...

Lokos

01-04-2005, 10:56 PM

Where to begin? The beginning, I suppose.

Source?? Albanian MoD magazine "Mbrojtja" (Defense)...First Serbian incurrsion was 2km inside Albania at Kamenica...was repelled with artillery and troops with heavy Serbian losses. Second incurrsion happened 2 days later...Serbs tried to advance on the Kukes-Bajram Curri road to cut off KLA supplies...Albanian Army had learned of this earlier and set up an ambush with artillery tanks and heavy machine guns...Serbs were caught thoroughly defeated and thrown back...again with heavy casualties. Albanian forces involved in the operation were those of the Kukesi Division. Serbian losses were 70...Albanian losses were zero.

Look, my friend: during the *entire* Kosovo War we sustained a loss of 13 tanks. Only 3 of those were destroyed by Albanians. This is well documented by NATO, as well as the VSCG. Unless you think we were dragging our hulks back with us?

If you don't believe me, just ask the British KFOR troops.

And, as a former recce operative of the 3rd Army in Kosovo, I'd like to tell you that we were under the strictest of orders not to cross any borders during cross-border firefights. Your information is disgustingly off.

The Albanian army had two divisions at the border...the Kukesi and the Laberia Divisions...armed with Type-59 tanks, heavy artillery and HJ-8 anti-tank missiles. Following the two major clashes with the Serb forces...the Albanian army held tank firing excercises on the border to make it clear to the Serbs such a thing would not be tolerated again...and no Serb incurrsion happened after that.

Would you like to know who'd win between an M-84A and a Type-59? I'll give you one guess, before I tell you. As for the Albanian Army's 'toleration' of Serb incursions... Oh, yeah, we were real scared of your army. Terrified. Really.

:roll:

We'll say it anyway we want it...its ours not yours. BTW the name on the flag says DARDANIA...better get used to it.

I don't have to get used to anything that isn't eminently 'correctable'.

LOL...you didn't want them dead...you wanted them robbed of their possesions and expelled. A dead refugee is trouble...a live one is money and goods for YOU. I know...trust me...I came accross my fair share of those refugees too Wink

If you say so. Personally, I never robbed anyone. Nor did any of the men in my squad. But we weren't really burdened with the mentality you ascribed us. Again: If we wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

LOL...Yes if you use Milo's mentality who in March 1999 was saying KLA only had 500 members left...while in fact they had 10,000 soldiers...and by May 1999 they had 20,000 soldiers. According to NATO itself the KLA had over 5,000 soldiers inside Kosova in March before the bombing...and another 5,000 in Albania. You were nowhere near defeating the KLA or even driving it out of any part of Kosova...they continued operations throughout the war in every province of Kosova. You did good in expelling and massacring civilians in big cities...so KLA was forced out that way in most areas...

And all the meanwhile...you suffering more and more casualties to them...

... You make me want to shake my head in sorrow. Really. There is no way the KLA would have survived without the NATO intervention. If you believe otherwise, you are a fool. We are not Americans. We would have just sent you all packing and cleansed Kosovo. No locals = No local support = No hiding places = No KLA. I was there. I fought you little bastards. And you died in a hurry when we wanted you to. Capiche?

Looking at NATO information about KLA activity, in late May KLA was carrying out combat operations in the areas west of Mitrovica, next to Podujev, north of Prishtina, east of Decan, west of Peja, west and south of Urosevac and of course the areas of the border. So essencially, they were still carrying out operations in every part of Kosova...and they were growing stronger and stronger by the day.

What the hell are these 'combat operations' you speak of? Are you unaware of the fact that the few times we caught the KLA in organised maneuvers, we mutilated them? The KLA's favorite modum of operation was in cells, not units of any significance.

LOL...absolutely untrue. As was said we know how many soldiers the KLA lost. They were all given proper burrials and recognized for their heroic acts. But that just doesn't add up to 10 to 1...actually it comes out to closer to 1 to 1 or 2 to 1...on KLA's side!! Serbs lost 5,000 soldiers, policeman and paramilitaries and 10,000 wounded...confirmed numbers from NATO as well as KLA sources.

The only thing the Serbs managed to kill 10 to 1 were unarmed civilians....10,000 of them.

BTW I was told they did some pretty good work with their RPGs and Armburst rockets supplied by the Albanian Army Wink

If by 'proper burials' you mean that they were buried in pits by our digging crews, then yes, lots of KLA were given 'proper burials'. I myself attended a couple.

Again: You lost anywhere between 10-15 KLA for every Serbian soldier killed. This is not a fact you should be ashamed of. We just outclassed you in every conceivable way. I'm not trying to put you down, here, it's just fact. To say that we traded casualties on an equal basis is a joke. I mean, in one of the major operations I took part in, we lost 3 KIA and 8 WIA for 42 KLA KIA and as many prisoners, many of whom were sadly executed shortly afterwards.

The only thing the Serbs managed to kill 10 to 1 were unarmed civilians....10,000 of them.

BTW I was told they did some pretty good work with their RPGs and Armburst rockets supplied by the Albanian Army

Just like at Racak, right? Does simply being an Albanian make one inherently civilian? According to the Western media, it seems to And your sheity rockets did next to no damage. Our biggest problems were snipers and ambushes on rear area personnel.

And, uhh, your RPG's managed to knock out 3 tanks. Congratulations.

VJ lost 13 tanks??? LOL...you do realize thats BS....confirmed BS...becasue I have seen pictures of DOZENS more lost Serb tanks in Kosova. Have you seen the graveyards in Kosova full of blown up T-55s?? Just in one village I have pictures of at least 4 M-84s laying destroyed. NATO itslef confirms at least 90 destroyed Serbian tanks from their bombs alone...KLA got even more. During a single operation using Armbrust rockets KLA destroyed 3 tanks, 2 APCs and 2 SPAAAs.

Now I know the Serbs claim 13 lost tanks...but then again they also claimed 140 shot down NATO aircraft Wink Funny thing is Serbs claimed 13 lost tanks...and said 10 of them were taken back to Serbia so there should be only 3 tanks left behind in Kosova. Well...you can count can't you Serbo?? Look at the bottom of this post and COUNT the number of destroyed Serbian tanks. Add up to 3 to you??? Or even 13??? LOL

Do you realise you're bull****? VJ lost 13 tanks in Kosovo. Are you counting the decoys, too?

Let's see the pictures of the 4 destroyed M-84's in one village.

NATO itself confirms 14 destroyed tanks in its After Action Report, in case you haven't seen it, idiot.

Funny thing is, it's not only us Serbs who counted the tanks, and the count is 13-14 every time.

You do realise that most of the pictures you showed were APC's, decoys and equipment abandoned before the war, don't you? We no longer use T-34's or Shermans, and haven't for decades, or haven't you been updated on that?

Not to mention KLA even managed to capture and put into operation a Serb T-55 (again confirmed with pictures)

Perhaps one of the several tanks damaged by NATO. Nevertheless, I'd like to see it confirmed with those pictures.

Well I also know people who were there...and these things are confirmed by sources much more trustworthy than you.

Funny but Macedonian Army also outclasses them in training and equipment...and yet NLA wipped the floor with them. They can't cry and say NATO defeated them...becasue this time its clear who defeated them...

*I* was there. And I'm as trustworthy source as any, because I don't personally hate you people. No reason to lie.

The Macedonian Army did well, considering the circumstances. Your biggest success in that war was planting a mine that blew up a truck and 10 Macedonian soldiers. Congratulations, truly.

And to say that you 'mopped the floor with them'.... Heh. That's a good joke, that is.

Are you honestly under the belief that it was the KLA that 'truly' defeated the VJ? I mean, are you for real? Idiotic Albanian nationalists it seems are as bad, if not worse, as some of the more idiotic Serbian nationalists.

Sunshine, wake up. We weren't defeated in the field at all. NATO bombing of Serbian infrastructure forced our withdrawal. In case you hadn't noticed, our casualties were something like 2% (in the 3rd Army, even less in the rest of the VJ). Not exactly cringe-worthy.

LOL...ok. Well everyone knows where you are from...the taiga...everyone also knows where we are from...Iliria. What happened Serbs?? Too tired of trying to prove your historical presence in the region by the number of churches you build.

The only connection between Illyrians and Albanians is that you happened to inhabit the same area during different historical periods. You can't show me proof about your heritage, because none exists. There is *no* conclusive proof that Illyians = Albanians. So, respectfully, shut the **** up.

Regards,
Lokos

Kapedani

01-05-2005, 01:02 AM

Look, my friend: during the *entire* Kosovo War we sustained a loss of 13 tanks. Only 3 of those were destroyed by Albanians. This is well documented by NATO, as well as the VSCG. Unless you think we were dragging our hulks back with us?

This is starting to worry me...mostly because you people live next to us...and apparently you all suffer from the same condition where YOU CAN'T COUNT!!! THERE ARE 28 TANKS IN THOSE PICTURES...DESTROYED...IN KOSOVA. Which part pf that do you NOT understand???

NATO confirms no such stupidity...NATO confirms 93 destroyed Serb tanks...and VSCG confirms 140 shot down NATO aircraft :lol:

And, as a former recce operative of the 3rd Army in Kosovo, I'd like to tell you that we were under the strictest of orders not to cross any borders during cross-border firefights. Your information is disgustingly off

Oh I though you were in the 72nd Airborne Comedy Trope...Considering my source is the Albanian MoD, and is backed up by a multitude of journalists who were in Northern Albania at the time...I don't know who to believe...someone who keeps saying they lost 13 tanks even though I show pictures of twice that many destroyed...or...

Would you like to know who'd win between an M-84A and a Type-59? I'll give you one guess, before I tell you. As for the Albanian Army's 'toleration' of Serb incursions... Oh, yeah, we were real scared of your army. Terrified. Really.

You should be...if KLA did that to you...what would we do to you. There were no Serb M-84s involved...how did you figure?? Serb tanks were T-55s...and they weren't firing at our tanks. I said nothing of the sort. They were both present but neither engaged each other...I thought I made that clear.

I don't have to get used to anything that isn't eminently 'correctable'

You'r more than welcomed to try and "correct" it. Apparently 1999 wasn't enough for you.

If you say so. Personally, I never robbed anyone. Nor did any of the men in my squad. But we weren't really burdened with the mentality you ascribed us. Again: If we wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

I am certain you weren't burdened in the least bit...but unlike you most of your fellow comradens were in it for the loot...there's good money to be had by stopping refugee colomns and taking all their posesions at gun point.

... You make me want to shake my head in sorrow. Really. There is no way the KLA would have survived without the NATO intervention. If you believe otherwise, you are a fool. We are not Americans. We would have just sent you all packing and cleansed Kosovo. No locals = No local support = No hiding places = No KLA. I was there. I fought you little bastards. And you died in a hurry when we wanted you to. Capiche?

LOL...yes you were very brave and manly killing civilians...those you killed at a rate of 10 to 1. Serbs are renown for their bravery in front of women and children. KLA however...thats a different story...

Facts are FACTS Serbo...KLA grew THREE times as large in the 3 months...and operated thoughout the depth of Kosova. You never kicked them out.

And guess what...we won. Now go cry to someone who cares.

What the hell are these 'combat operations' you speak of? Are you unaware of the fact that the few times we caught the KLA in organised maneuvers, we mutilated them? The KLA's favorite modum of operation was in cells, not units of any significance.

They...didn't carry out "organized manuvers"...they carried out defensive operations or ambushes. They were a guerilla army.

Funny thing is from my sniper friend I heard different stories. At one point he sngle handidl turned back a Serb assault on a village. Serb forces were approaching on the KLA trenches with infantry and a single IFV. The KLA soldiers in those trenches didn't posses any anti-tank weapons so they were helpless against the IFV. My sniper friend was in a tree (where he'd been for three days)...and he put a bullet right between the eyes of the IFV driver. Needless to say the Serb forces all ran like chickens out of the area once the IFV was imobilized and the KLA opened fire.

So much for "organized manuvers"...

Again: You lost anywhere between 10-15 KLA for every Serbian soldier killed. This is not a fact you should be ashamed of. We just outclassed you in every conceivable way. I'm not trying to put you down, here, it's just fact. To say that we traded casualties on an equal basis is a joke. I mean, in one of the major operations I took part in, we lost 3 KIA and 8 WIA for 42 KLA KIA and as many prisoners, many of whom were sadly executed shortly afterwards.

I was mistaken...you must be in the 82nd Airborne Special Operations Hallucination Squad. If we lost 10-15 for each of yours...there'd be no KLA left...and yet we only grew three times bigger. Facts are facts...KLA actually suffered few casualties as would be expected.

This fact is also confirmed just by looking at the Macedonian conflict...if anything NLA managed a 10 to 1 ratio against the Macs.

Kosova is hard to tell...you angels killed everything that moved...so 42 of your KLA count is most likely 35 women and children...and you Serbs never did release the true numbers of your dead...hell mass graves keep turning up all over Serbia even now...but if you really want to see what KLA was made out of just look at Macedonia. Go explain to your Mac friends how they won because they outclassed us...or did they win??

Just like at Racak, right? Does simply being an Albanian make one inherently civilian? According to the Western media, it seems to

Yes I know...5 year old children are a real threat on the battlefield.

And, uhh, your RPG's managed to knock out 3 tanks. Congratulations.

Of course they did...and NATO only destroyed 10...I just photoshopped those pictures of destroyed Serb tanks :roll:

Do you realise you're bull****? VJ lost 13 tanks in Kosovo. Are you counting the decoys, too?

Do you realise you have a very grave condition...you seem to have lost the ability to COUNT. Because if counted...you'd see there are 28 destroyed Serbian tanks in those pictures. LOL

NATO itself confirms 14 destroyed tanks in its After Action Report, in case you haven't seen it, idiot.

Uhmm...idiot...NATO confirms no such stupidity. Please show me this NATO report...and I'll believe it. Of course it doesn't exist, because NATO confirms 93 destroyed tanks...besides the obvious fact that we have pictures of at least twice as many destroyed Serb tanks...lol

Funny thing is, it's not only us Serbs who counted the tanks, and the count is 13-14 every time.

Its funny...there are TWENTY EIGHT (28) in those photos.

You do realise that most of the pictures you showed were APC's, decoys and equipment abandoned before the war, don't you? We no longer use T-34's or Shermans, and haven't for decades, or haven't you been updated on that?

You do realise none of my pictures show anything of the sort?? I even made a count for you...11 M-84s and 12 T-55s...there are no T-34s, only one Sherman (which I didn't count)...and of course I didn't count any of the APCs (I posted those just for fun).

You'r welcome to count them yourself. I'll be damned if you end up with 13...lol

So let me get this straight...M-84s and T-55s are decoys now??? LOL

*I* was there. And I'm as trustworthy source as any, because I don't personally hate you people. No reason to lie.

You were in the Comedy Trope...

I also know people who were there...and unlike you...it appears I CAN COUNT!!!

The Macedonian Army did well, considering the circumstances. Your biggest success in that war was planting a mine that blew up a truck and 10 Macedonian soldiers. Congratulations, truly.

LOL...yeah that and...taking over 1/3 of the country :roll:

Macs lost about 10 times more soldiers than we did...also about 2 dozen APCs and IFVs (including 3 captured, one TR-170, one M-60 and one BTR-70) and 9 tanks (including one captured)

Are you honestly under the belief that it was the KLA that 'truly' defeated the VJ? I mean, are you for real? Idiotic Albanian nationalists it seems are as bad, if not worse, as some of the more idiotic Serbian nationalists.

No I don't...but we didn't lose either. KLA didn't have the ability to defeat you...at that point anyway...but also you never had the ability to defeat them and were far from controlling Kosova. There is a difference.

Sunshine, wake up. We weren't defeated in the field at all. NATO bombing of Serbian infrastructure forced our withdrawal. In case you hadn't noticed, our casualties were something like 2% (in the 3rd Army, even less in the rest of the VJ). Not exactly cringe-worthy.

Do the math...math-boy...you'r good at counting. What percentage is 93 out of 350?? How many desertions did VJ have?? I think it was about 1,000 just after a single retaliatory raid by Serb Gestapo on anti-war protestors and harrasment of soldier's families.

2%?? More like 20-30% of your equipment in Kosova...about 99% of your flyable aircraft...about your entire air defense...and besides the heavy human losses also the degraded morale and desertions.

Yeah...you won that one didn't ya!!

The only connection between Illyrians and Albanians is that you happened to inhabit the same area during different historical periods. You can't show me proof about your heritage, because none exists. There is *no* conclusive proof that Illyians = Albanians. So, respectfully, shut the f*** up.

Respectfully...eat me. I'm not going to go into the proof to you...because if you can't count simple numbers I don't think you could understand it...but siffcient to say that linguistic, cultural, historical and archeological evidence confirms it beyound a doubt. Now I could either trust ancient Greek and Roman and Byzantine historians and linguistics....or I could sit here and teach you what 2 + 2 is.

---------

Let's see the pictures of the 4 destroyed M-84's in one village.

For your viewing pleasure!!!

All these pictures were taken in the same village. Count the number of M-84s...they are all different:

Ok...I'll take this nice and slow...I'm going to use BIG numbers so you don't get confused and think 28 is 13 again...

ONE
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8027.jpg

TWO
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8029.jpg

THREE
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8030.jpg

FOUR
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8031.jpg

...and...oh oh...what's this...FIVE
http://host.pixerver.com/04012005/8034.jpg
(notice the hulk of the fourth M-84 can be seen in the distance in front of that same white house)

:D Any more questions??? Thats one village...thats 5 confirmed M-84 hulks just in there.

And lookie here...another village...and look....THREE more M-84s all within 30 meters of each other.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2000/0800kosovo1.jpg

Hmmm....yummy

Perhaps one of the several tanks damaged by NATO. Nevertheless, I'd like to see it confirmed with those pictures.

I had this really good picture of the tank shown with an Albanian flag on it and being driven out into a field. I'v lost the picture unfortunately...but I have another one don't worry. I'll post it in the next post I make...which I'm sure will be filled with more fun and challanging math lessons for our mathematically challanged friends...becasue I don't have time now.

Enjoy...

Lokos

01-05-2005, 06:15 AM

This is starting to worry me...mostly because you people live next to us...and apparently you all suffer from the same condition where YOU CAN'T COUNT!!! THERE ARE 28 TANKS IN THOSE PICTURES...DESTROYED...IN KOSOVA. Which part pf that do you NOT understand???

NATO confirms no such stupidity...NATO confirms 93 destroyed Serb tanks...and VSCG confirms 140 shot down NATO aircraft Laughing

VSCG doesn't claim anything. VJ claimed, during the way, a large number of downed NATO craft. Mainly for propaganda purposes. Just in case you didn't know: we never lied to *ourselves* about how many NATO aircraft we managed to down. And at the height they were flying, it's a wonder we managed to knock out any of them.

Understand this: they flew just high enough to evade our AA by default - which is not nearly low enough to actually hurt us. Have a look at their AAR, chump.

And those 28 tanks of yours... My God, man... Half of them aren't tanks, and most are actually decoys. What does that leave you with?

Do you know how *I* know? Because my uncle, Tomislav Markovic, was one of the ones responsible for accounting for VJ equipment. Our tank combat strength fell by 13. No reinforcements to take into account.

And, when you say NATO claims 93 destroyed tanks, can I ask you: Have you actually *read* the NATO AAR? Or is this something you had once upon a time heard from someone who heard from someone that this was the case? You're a bit of a wishful thinker, matey. Because I've read that AAR, and it talks about 14 destroyed tanks, not 93.

Oh I though you were in the 72nd Airborne Comedy Trope...Considering my source is the Albanian MoD, and is backed up by a multitude of journalists who were in Northern Albania at the time...I don't know who to believe...someone who keeps saying they lost 13 tanks even though I show pictures of twice that many destroyed...or...

That's 'troupe'. Not 'trope'. It seems the same people who supplied you with your 'logic' also threw in the hand-me-down spelling ability you're endowed with.

... Why would I trust the Albanian MoD as a source? Are you *****ting* me? The *Albanian* MoD? I despair of you, truly. And, uhh, which journalists should I trust? The ones who called Racak a massacre of civilians? Or the ones who started crowing about genocide when no such thing took place?

No, I trust guys who make a living analysing wars after the fact. That discounts both your sources.

You should be...if KLA did that to you...what would we do to you. There were no Serb M-84s involved...how did you figure?? Serb tanks were T-55s...and they weren't firing at our tanks. I said nothing of the sort. They were both present but neither engaged each other...I thought I made that clear.

What the KLA 'did to us' was to die in large numbers. Sure, you can do that too. Do you seriously think Serbia considers Albania a credible opponent? We are the best trained, most heavily armed, most experienced army in the Balkans (minus Greece, which arguably has a better equipped army). And you're under the impression that a miniscule, under-armed, non-trained rabble like the Albanian Army could dent us? You're living in Lalaland.

You know how you'll win our long standing conflict? By outbreeding us. Not through military force. You have no capability to beat us through military force. But, apparently, you have many characteristics in common with rabbits. You breed like rabbits, you die like rabbits.

You'r more than welcomed to try and "correct" it. Apparently 1999 wasn't enough for you.

When in history have Serbs backed down from a fight? Never. Ever. When and if NATO withdraws, we're more than happy to go for another round, champ. I'd like to be there personally. What about you?

I am certain you weren't burdened in the least bit...but unlike you most of your fellow comradens were in it for the loot...there's good money to be had by stopping refugee colomns and taking all their posesions at gun point.

Stop equating the VJ/VSCG with our civilian paramilitary groups. Because they are the ones who committed such petty bull**** crimes.

LOL...yes you were very brave and manly killing civilians...those you killed at a rate of 10 to 1. Serbs are renown for their bravery in front of women and children. KLA however...thats a different story...

Facts are FACTS Serbo...KLA grew THREE times as large in the 3 months...and operated thoughout the depth of Kosova. You never kicked them out.

And guess what...we won. Now go cry to someone who cares.

Actually, Serbs are renowned for our bravery - regardless who we are in front of. The Third Reich, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, the United States, the Ottoman Empire. Notice how some of the world's largest nations are among that list. We've stood up to them all. Four of them we actually fought.

What's Albania's military record like? Oh, yes. Ottomans come in, Albanians spread their legs. Italians come in, Albanians spread their legs. Whoever comes in, the Albanians spread their legs. So what, exactly, are you bragging about?

Yes, the KLA grew under NATO bombing. We couldn't interdict them or operate nominally during the day. Congratulations, once again, for using your mighty airforce to keep us from squashing you like the bugs you are. Oh, wait. That airforce isn't yours. It seems to be American! Ain't that just the strangest thing?

They...didn't carry out "organized manuvers"...they carried out defensive operations or ambushes. They were a guerilla army.

Funny thing is from my sniper friend I heard different stories. At one point he sngle handidl turned back a Serb assault on a village. Serb forces were approaching on the KLA trenches with infantry and a single IFV. The KLA soldiers in those trenches didn't posses any anti-tank weapons so they were helpless against the IFV. My sniper friend was in a tree (where he'd been for three days)...and he put a bullet right between the eyes of the IFV driver. Needless to say the Serb forces all ran like chickens out of the area once the IFV was imobilized and the KLA opened fire.

So much for "organized manuvers"...

Oh, they carried out a couple of organized maneuvers (800-1,200 strong units involved). We taught them the error of their ways soon enough.

And, uhh, the IFV was unbuttoned in an approach to an enemy position? Really? I'm going to say there are two possibilities here: 1) Your friend is a bull**** artiste par excellence, because our IFV's don't drive up to enemy trenches unbuttoned. 2) Your friend managed to snipe the driver of an IFV unknowingly approaching the KLA position. The IFV's supporting forces would have then tactically withdrawn in case they had walked into an ambush.

So which of those sounds more likely to you? Neither is embarassing for the Serb forces, if you ask me, so take your pick. But your explanation for that incident (if it ever occured) is bull****.

I was mistaken...you must be in the 82nd Airborne Special Operations Hallucination Squad. If we lost 10-15 for each of yours...there'd be no KLA left...and yet we only grew three times bigger. Facts are facts...KLA actually suffered few casualties as would be expected.

This fact is also confirmed just by looking at the Macedonian conflict...if anything NLA managed a 10 to 1 ratio against the Macs.

Kosova is hard to tell...you angels killed everything that moved...so 42 of your KLA count is most likely 35 women and children...and you Serbs never did release the true numbers of your dead...hell mass graves keep turning up all over Serbia even now...but if you really want to see what KLA was made out of just look at Macedonia. Go explain to your Mac friends how they won because they outclassed us...or did they win??

How many Serbian soldiers do you actually think died in that war? We lost less than 1,200 men to the air bombardment, and that caused far more casualties than the KLA did.

By my uncle's estimate, the casualty ratio stood, by the end of 1999, at something like 500:6,500. Not too bad. Feel free to disagree, it makes no difference to me.

I guarantee you the 42 KIA's were all Albanian men of fighting age, armed with AK-47's, single shot rifles, hand grenades, anti-tank mines, RPG's and light mortars. No women. No children.

Which mass graves are you talking about? Or is that another 'fact' courtesy of Your Ass?

The Macedonians were utterly ****ted on with the signing of Ohrid. It's because the Americans saved your asses again by intervening before the Macedonians got down to business. In 2000-2001 they were in the same place we were during 1997-early 1998. If they had a couple of more months...

Yes I know...5 year old children are a real threat on the battlefield.

And how many 5 year old children were found at Racak, do you think?

Of course they did...and NATO only destroyed 10...I just photoshopped those pictures of destroyed Serb tanks Rolling Eyes

Which destroyed Serbian tanks were those? I just pointed out some problems with your 'destroyed Serbian tanks' previously.

Do you realise you have a very grave condition...you seem to have lost the ability to COUNT. Because if counted...you'd see there are 28 destroyed Serbian tanks in those pictures. LOL

You've lost the ability to reason. Because you can't seem to differentiate between APC and tank, decoy and combat vehicle.

Uhmm...idiot...NATO confirms no such stupidity. Please show me this NATO report...and I'll believe it. Of course it doesn't exist, because NATO confirms 93 destroyed tanks...besides the obvious fact that we have pictures of at least twice as many destroyed Serb tanks...lol

Idiot, NATO confirms every one of my words. The report is freely available, just search it up, for crying out loud. Operation Allied Force AAR.

Its funny...there are TWENTY EIGHT (28) in those photos.

Do I have to comment every time you make a fool of yourself?

You do realise none of my pictures show anything of the sort?? I even made a count for you...11 M-84s and 12 T-55s...there are no T-34s, only one Sherman (which I didn't count)...and of course I didn't count any of the APCs (I posted those just for fun).

You'r welcome to count them yourself. I'll be damned if you end up with 13...lol

So let me get this straight...M-84s and T-55s are decoys now??? LOL

:lol: :roll:

LOL...yeah that and...taking over 1/3 of the country Rolling Eyes

Macs lost about 10 times more soldiers than we did...also about 2 dozen APCs and IFVs (including 3 captured, one TR-170, one M-60 and one BTR-70) and 9 tanks (including one captured)

:lol: :roll: You sad, sad little man. Oh, wait, you meant the 1/3rd of the country the Albanians exclusively inhabit? That 1/3rd of the country, right? *cough* rofl

No I don't...but we didn't lose either. KLA didn't have the ability to defeat you...at that point anyway...but also you never had the ability to defeat them and were far from controlling Kosova. There is a difference

So, in your personal opinion, if NATO had stayed out of it, you would have come out of this victorious? Have you even heard what your American allies thought of your fighting ability?

You're no Northern Alliance, that's for sure!

Do the math...math-boy...you'r good at counting. What percentage is 93 out of 350?? How many desertions did VJ have?? I think it was about 1,000 just after a single retaliatory raid by Serb Gestapo on anti-war protestors and harrasment of soldier's families.

2%?? More like 20-30% of your equipment in Kosova...about 99% of your flyable aircraft...about your entire air defense...and besides the heavy human losses also the degraded morale and desertions.

Yeah...you won that one didn't ya!!

99% of our aircraft? You're a sick joke.

20-30% of our equipment in Kosovo? You're a bad, sick joke, too.

Degraded morale? Is that why we left Kosovo in perfect order, with less than 2% TO&E losses?

Respectfully...eat me. I'm not going to go into the proof to you...because if you can't count simple numbers I don't think you could understand it...but siffcient to say that linguistic, cultural, historical and archeological evidence confirms it beyound a doubt. Now I could either trust ancient Greek and Roman and Byzantine historians and linguistics....or I could sit here and teach you what 2 + 2 is.

How many European cultures do you think existed 5,000 years ago, exactly? Just for kicks, tell me.

For your viewing pleasure!!!

All these pictures were taken in the same village. Count the number of M-84s...they are all different:

Ok...I'll take this nice and slow...I'm going to use BIG numbers so you don't get confused and think 28 is 13 again...

THOSE were the pictures you were talking about? Oh, dear Christ, are you *serious*? THAT was your grand proof?

I'm going to restrain myself, and not point out again that you're an idiot. Your pictures are proof enough. Any M-84 'tenkisti' here to explain certain things to Monsieur Idiot? If not, all I have to say is: Have fun in Lalaland! rofl

Kapedani

01-05-2005, 11:39 PM

And at the height they were flying, it's a wonder we managed to knock out any of them.

What height were they flying?? 15,000 feet?? Thats well within the altitude of your Sa-3s and Sa-6s...and plenty of NATO aircraft went far below those altitudes...where do you think A-10s were flying?? You fired over 800 SAMs of all sorts...and managed only 4 confirmed hits (2 shot down and 2 damaged). Impressive...

Understand this: they flew just high enough to evade our AA by default - which is not nearly low enough to actually hurt us.

Yes not nearly low enough to actually hurt you... :roll:

And those 28 tanks of yours... My God, man... Half of them aren't tanks, and most are actually decoys. What does that leave you with?

Ok obviously you have some sort of serious mental condition which prevents you from simple comprehension of what you are vieweing. Half of them aren't tanks?? So what is an M-84?? What is a T-55?? What is an M-18?? I counted them for you...and you are more than welcomed to count them all yourself in the pictures...11 M-84s and 12 T-55s...Obviously none are "decoys"...

Do you know how *I* know? Because my uncle, Tomislav Markovic, was one of the ones responsible for accounting for VJ equipment. Our tank combat strength fell by 13. No reinforcements to take into account.

Thats wodnerful!! Now go to your uncle and show him my pictures...and tell him to add a few more notches to that list.

And, when you say NATO claims 93 destroyed tanks, can I ask you: Have you actually *read* the NATO AAR? Or is this something you had once upon a time heard from someone who heard from someone that this was the case? You're a bit of a wishful thinker, matey. Because I've read that AAR, and it talks about 14 destroyed tanks, not 93.

Hehe...nop...not at all. It talks of no such thing. The NATO AAR report speaks of about 20 some number of destroyed tanks found on the ground which were catastrophic kills. It also however talks about NATO teams which went around examining the sites...and determined that a large number of destroyed equipment had been removed when the Serbs withdraw...there were traces on the battlefield. According to the NATo AAR the Serbs moved into the area about 100 heavy transporters to remove destroyed equipment, for two reasons...one becasue it is standard procedure for an army to remove its destroyed equipment from the field to begin with and so that they would not fall into anyone's hands...and two becasue they could be used for parts for other vehicles. Hulks asside...which NATO doesn't claim to have found 93 of...NATO does claim to have evidence that 93 tanks had been destroyed based on the observations of their teams at different sites.

... Why would I trust the Albanian MoD as a source? Are you *****ting* me? The *Albanian* MoD? I despair of you, truly. And, uhh, which journalists should I trust? The ones who called Racak a massacre of civilians? Or the ones who started crowing about genocide when no such thing took place?

Albanian MoD at least didn't claim 140 shot down NATO aircraft. And I trust them fully...why shouldn't I?? I have seen both videos and plenty of pictures of our army units deploying on the border with dozens of tanks and anti-tank missiles and artillery...I'v heard plenty of interviews with KLA soldiers who talk of cross border raids and counter-fire from the Albanian side...as well as heard plenty from journalists who confirm such events.

Either that...or I trust Mr.Clown...aka you.

What the KLA 'did to us' was to die in large numbers. Sure, you can do that too. Do you seriously think Serbia considers Albania a credible opponent? We are the best trained, most heavily armed, most experienced army in the Balkans (minus Greece, which arguably has a better equipped army). And you're under the impression that a miniscule, under-armed, non-trained rabble like the Albanian Army could dent us? You're living in Lalaland.

LOL...your pathetic rubble of starving soldiers is an army?? Say Serbo...when did VSCG run out of money to feed its soldiers this year?? Last year they ran out about September...this year I heard they improved...their soldiers only were send home to their mamas in December.

You are a pathetic army of the Balkans...you have fought wars with all your neighbours and been thoroughly and soundly defeated by all your neighbours.

And you know who I credit your pathetic failures too...the brave and fearless Serbian fighting men who dilligently deserted the battlefields in every engagement. But I don't blame them...I wouldn't want to die for a government that is starving you either.

Mind you...by 2010...the Albanian Army will not only outnumber you...but will be more sophisticatd and better armed than you.

We have proved ourselves in combat...and guess who has won thus far?? Yeah....

You know how you'll win our long standing conflict? By outbreeding us. Not through military force. You have no capability to beat us through military force. But, apparently, you have many characteristics in common with rabbits. You breed like rabbits, you die like rabbits.

Big words for such a little mind...maybe you havn't heard the latest headlines...YOU LOST!!!!

When in history have Serbs backed down from a fight? Never. Ever. When and if NATO withdraws, we're more than happy to go for another round, champ. I'd like to be there personally. What about you?

I most certainly will be there. But I don't have to loose any sleep over it...by the time NATO withdraws...your army will be the laughing stock of the Balkans...as it already is...even KLA will this time be able to say it will outmatch you. By the time NATO withdraws...we will be IN NATO...while you'll probably be under sanctions for being such brick heads. NATO troops or no NATO troops...you think it takes a very long time for an F-16 to fly right back to where it was in 1999?? Don't be stupid...you don't have the pants for it...you lost the pants sometimes in 1991 but you still havn't realized that...and no one in the world would allow you to return. You return...but you realize next time it will be the permanent end of Serbia as a nation.

Of BTW...don't worry so much about us...worry your "brothers" in Montenegro don't break off from you first. Yeah...good going there!!

When in history have Serbs backed down from a fight? Never

When in history have you ever won a fight???

Stop equating the VJ/VSCG with our civilian paramilitary groups. Because they are the ones who committed such petty bull**** crimes.

Yeah ok...they wore VJ uniforms...had VJ patches...operated alongside VJ units....uh-hum...

Actually, Serbs are renowned for our bravery - regardless who we are in front of. The Third Reich, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, the United States, the Ottoman Empire. Notice how some of the world's largest nations are among that list. We've stood up to them all. Four of them we actually fought.

And lost...lol SERBS...are different from Yugoslavs...in the term Yugoslavs are also included Croats and Bosnians...and yes...Albanians. These groups made up the bulk of the Partisans in WW2. SERBS...are a different story...

USSR and US??? Hallucinating once again I see. Which one did you fight again??? USSR or US?? lol

What's Albania's military record like? Oh, yes. Ottomans come in, Albanians spread their legs. Italians come in, Albanians spread their legs. Whoever comes in, the Albanians spread their legs. So what, exactly, are you bragging about?

Hmm...lets see...besides being the conquerers of the ancient world...Pirro who defeated the Romans and the fact that most of Alexander's soldiers were in fact of Illyrian stock (since he was half-Illyrian and spend a large part of his life in his uncle's lands back home)...and the fact that we were the ONLY people in the Balkans who defeated the Ottomans over and over and over and over and our leader Skenderbeu become a legend worldwide for it...and the fact that Illyrian and Albanian soldiers were the top of the top of the Roman Pretorian Guards and the Ottoman Janisars...conquerers of Egypt for 100 years(Muhamed Ali was Albanian and he led an Albanian Army)....we also washed the floor with the Italian Army (which suffered about 60,000 losses in Albania)...and lastly but by no means least...we can add our recent victories and liberation of Kosova and Macedonia from you :D

Single handidly the Albanian fighting men is the best fighting man in the world...thats why we WERE the Pretorian Guard and the Janisars. We didn't spread our legs for the Ottoman Empire...we LED the Ottoman Empire. While the Serbs quietly bend over for the Ottomans after their pathetic performances and when no army in the WORLD had stood up to the Ottomans and lived...the Albanian fighters of Skenderbeu defeated the Ottomans in duzens of battles for 30+ years...100,000 Ottoman troops thoroughly massacred by 9,000 Albanian soldiers in the battle of Kruja. And even after we did fall...we were still the top. thats the reason why the Ottomans Janisars were made up mostly by Albanian soldiers and why most of their generals and commanders and most of their vezirs and governors...were Albanian. So most likely...when you fought the Ottomans...it was the Albanians you were spreading your legs for.

Ask the Macs what our achievemtns are...

Yes, the KLA grew under NATO bombing. We couldn't interdict them or operate nominally during the day. Congratulations, once again, for using your mighty airforce to keep us from squashing you like the bugs you are. Oh, wait. That airforce isn't yours. It seems to be American! Ain't that just the strangest thing?

And your point is?? Maybe it is...YOU LOST!!!! The planes were NATO...thanks NATO...and you think if you start **** again..those planes won't be flying over you once more??? lol

NATO or no NATO...you still were nowhere near defeating the KLA...

Oh, they carried out a couple of organized maneuvers (800-1,200 strong units involved). We taught them the error of their ways soon enough.

Uhhmmm...sounds tough.

And, uhh, the IFV was unbuttoned in an approach to an enemy position? Really? I'm going to say there are two possibilities here: 1) Your friend is a bull**** artiste par excellence, because our IFV's don't drive up to enemy trenches unbuttoned. 2) Your friend managed to snipe the driver of an IFV unknowingly approaching the KLA position. The IFV's supporting forces would have then tactically withdrawn in case they had walked into an ambush.

The bullet went right into the viewing slit of the vehicle. :D My friend examined his kill later...since the Serbs abandoned the vehicle there...and he was very disturbed to see his bullet was about 2cm higher than what he was aimimg for. He was sick for two days for missing by that much...lol

So which of those sounds more likely to you? Neither is embarassing for the Serb forces, if you ask me, so take your pick. But your explanation for that incident (if it ever occured) is bull****.

Went down just as I said it...Serb advance was defeated and repelled with heavy losses.

How many Serbian soldiers do you actually think died in that war? We lost less than 1,200 men to the air bombardment, and that caused far more casualties than the KLA did.

Funny...but official VJ propaganda says you lost only about 600 men. lol According to NATO numbers...Serbs suffered 5,000 casualties.

By my uncle's estimate, the casualty ratio stood, by the end of 1999, at something like 500:6,500. Not too bad. Feel free to disagree, it makes no difference to me.

Your uncle must know something we don't apparently...becasue far less than even 2,000 KLA fighters are known to be killed. 6,500 if you count all the random people you went around shooting...99.9% of whom were unarmed civilians. Essencially Serbs considered every male above the age of 15 to be KLA...and acted accordingly. You wre after all real brave fighters...but that doesnt mean that every Albanian you killed was KLA.

I guarantee you the 42 KIA's were all Albanian men of fighting age, armed with AK-47's, single shot rifles, hand grenades, anti-tank mines, RPG's and light mortars. No women. No children.

Wonderful...go tell it to your uncle. He'll add it to his list

Which mass graves are you talking about? Or is that another 'fact' courtesy of Your Ass?

LOL...yes the ones I invented. Or maybe the ones poping up around Belgrade these days...lol
http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/05/belgrade.grave/

If you keep reading the news...so far about 600 bodies have been found in mass graves around Belgrade...and another 150 have been found incinerated in Serb factory furnaces.

The Macedonians were utterly ****ted on with the signing of Ohrid. It's because the Americans saved your asses again by intervening before the Macedonians got down to business. In 2000-2001 they were in the same place we were during 1997-early 1998. If they had a couple of more months...

if they had a couple more months there would be no more Macedonia...period. US saved the Macs ass...NLA was surrounding even Shkup...and all the Mac army offensives with all their weaponry were totally worthless and thoroughly defeated.

NLA's aims of course weren't the destruction of Macedonia or secession...so thats why they were sadisfied with the Ohrid agreement...while for the Macs it was their only chance at survival. Thats why the Mac overnment ****s its pants now whenever Mac ultra-nationalists start speaking trash...they don't want another repeat.

NLA controlled 1/3 of Macedonia...and ever Mac Army offensive ended in disaster for them.

And how many 5 year old children were found at Racak, do you think?

Several children and women...

Which destroyed Serbian tanks were those? I just pointed out some problems with your 'destroyed Serbian tanks' previously.

You just pointed out your stupidity previously...11 M-84s and 12 T-55s...count them braniac. Take off your socks if you need extra digits.

You've lost the ability to reason. Because you can't seem to differentiate between APC and tank, decoy and combat vehicle.

Braniac...for the third time...I only counted the tanks...nothing more. And I even broke it down for you by type. I can't make it any simpler for you...

Idiot, NATO confirms every one of my words. The report is freely available, just search it up, for crying out loud. Operation Allied Force AAR.

Apparently besides not being able to count or comprehend pictures, you can't read either. NATO confirms no such stupidity...if for no reason that there are more than twice that many destroyed Serb tanks recovered. What NATO does confirm however, is that they also found plenty of evidence of destroyed Serb tanks and vehicles having been removed from the battlefield...thats how they come up with a number of 93.

You sad, sad little man. Oh, wait, you meant the 1/3rd of the country the Albanians exclusively inhabit? That 1/3rd of the country, right? *cough*

Well I'm glad it made you laugh...it surely didn't make the Macs laugh...lol

So, in your personal opinion, if NATO had stayed out of it, you would have come out of this victorious? Have you even heard what your American allies thought of your fighting ability?

No...I said nothing of the sort...but you wouldn't have won either. It would have been something like Bosnia..but either way you were far from winning.

99% of our aircraft? You're a sick joke

Really?? What was it...6 MiG-29s...about 30 or so other planes. You only had 6 operational MiG-29s...and every single on that took off...was shot down. Good going...

20-30% of our equipment in Kosovo? You're a bad, sick joke, too.

Ok...so do the math...what is 93 out of 350??

Degraded morale? Is that why we left Kosovo in perfect order, with less than 2% TO&E losses?

Perfect order?? You left like thieves...with your trucks and tanks loaded with stolen goods...

How many European cultures do you think existed 5,000 years ago, exactly? Just for kicks, tell me.

Illyrians were the first Indo-European people in Europe...so technically we were the first.

THOSE were the pictures you were talking about? Oh, dear Christ, are you *serious*? THAT was your grand proof?

Yes Braniac...thats 5 M-84s in one village. Or you still are having a hard time counting??

Your pictures are proof enough. Any M-84 'tenkisti' here to explain certain things to Monsieur Idiot? If not, all I have to say is: Have fun in Lalaland

Hmm...yes mentally derranged people have a funny way of responding. What exactly is funny braniac??? thats 5 M-84s...clear as dalight...all destroyed...in one village. Can't make it much clearer to you...but obviously you have some serious mental issues you need to address...

---

BTW the KLA T-55 picture I promised you. Its not the best one I'v seen of it...but its the only one I have at the moment.

http://img12.exs.cx/img12/5740/klatank8rm.jpg

Also...some more Serb tanks in Kosova...so add that up to the tally of 28

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/236/yghj9cn.png

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/2311/87y72pc.png

http://img86.exs.cx/img86/8473/y347356yv.png

:D

Lokos

01-06-2005, 12:07 AM

Well, Kapedani, I think that concluded our little tet-a-tet. Any reader with half a mind who even browsed through this thread now understands what a total git you truly are, and what kind of people you represent.

Congratulations on a finely fought defeat.

See you after the NATO withdrawal!

Regards,
Lokos

Metak

01-06-2005, 04:07 AM

Mind you...by 2010...the Albanian Army will not only outnumber you...but will be more sophisticatd and better armed than you.

HAHAHA
Does "sophisticated equipment" include planes which explode during the take off like one albanian Mig 2 months ago?
Like I said before the rest of your idiotic bovine speech is not wort comment. Lokos explained some things to you but obviously lack of inteligence prevent you to understand it.

Lokos don't bother with this clown, I've read some of his posts on other forum where he and such idiots are flaming all the time. Now he came here to spread his poisonous propaganda.

bison3255

01-06-2005, 09:34 AM

the albanian army (or should I say the albanian mafia? there is nothing that is not criminal or terrosist in that ****pool...) is a joke, always has been, always will be. btw serbs are quite terrified of the MiG-15's I am sure...

Lokos

01-06-2005, 10:40 AM

Albania spends 50-65 million USD a year on their 'military'. We spend over 650 million USD. How this is supposed to decisively change by 2010 none truly know. But let us respect the fact that Kapedani has a rich and fertile imagination.

Yeah, Metak, you're right.

Ovaj idiot je pickin dim.

Lokos

4nzix

01-07-2005, 03:39 AM

Oh my God, this Albanian ****er is really retarded!!!!

You stupid idiot, when the Serbs launched the offensive in98/99, where the **** were you then???As I remember,theKLA got worked really bad!! You ****ers were pushed back into Albania and Macedonia.

Just ask yourself where you would be now if NATO never intervened!!!!!!!

KLA and Albanian army are a complete ****ing joke!!!

haze99

01-20-2005, 12:57 PM

As for reading this post, as well as others. I see that there is still abit of animosity in the Balkans. But, no different than what has happened in Africa!

What is the current state of the Balkan Armed Forces? To where have they deployed?
Has Albania opened ties back up to the PRC?

-Max-

01-20-2005, 02:20 PM

Mind you...by 2010...the Albanian Army will not only outnumber you...but will be more sophisticatd and better armed than you.

rofl

You must be joking...

Migman

01-20-2005, 03:34 PM

Must be an attempt at a rather funny joke.