Counterterrorism exercise: KP SWAT & US Army SRT [Archive]

Jooglae

09-06-2003, 11:01 AM

The photos are from the recent joint counterterrorism exercise conducted by Korean Police SWAT team, and the US Army SRT, during the recent Daegu Universiad.

And no, they are not airsofters.

http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_DSCN0432.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_DSCN0435.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_DSCN0437.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_DSCN0438.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_DSCN0453.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_Rotation_of_DSCN0433.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Resize_of_Rotation_of_DSCN0448.jpg
http://teambazooka.com/jboard/data/swat02/binary/Rotation_of_DSCN0439.jpg

Sirpad

09-06-2003, 12:21 PM

my esteemed american colegues will have t fogive me for this one - why the hell can't american soldiers open the M4's stock?! out of personal experience, the results are very different (toward open stock, of course).
IMHO this is a bad habbit that should be worked on.

ibstolidude

09-06-2003, 02:00 PM

I personally have serious doubts about the validity of these pictures...and the fact that it comes from an airsoft site only adds credence

Sirpad - there are several reasons for this...the bulk of pictures involving the US forces in OIF and OEF have been taken in urban areas in which the soldiers generally wear body armour of a kind... often with the thickness of the armour you see people shorten the stock to keep a comfortable cheek weld...a large portion of patrols begin mounted in vehicles and in that situation it is also common to shorten the stock to provide greater mobility in/around the vehicle..

although you are correct the zeroing and shooting with stock extended and then using it collapsed will change point of aim point of impact...overall for short distances it has little effect.
when facing/squaring up on a target up close and presenting your trauma plate/armour as protection (as if you are a tringle w/the target/barrell tip as the peak/your legs the base) many find it difficult to keep the stock extended.

or so says I - ask around others may see differentlty or have been taught different.

Argyll

09-06-2003, 02:09 PM

I belive it's now a taught CQB technique,to have the butt to the outside of the shoulder,I asked the same thing in another forum!
To add my 2p(cents) worth here,if these are the real deal,then they are in breach of the dress code,as the shoulder flags are facing the wrong way!!!...................these are fakes IMHO

ibstolidude

09-06-2003, 02:32 PM

not sure I understand?

In the US military, on the M4, I know of no-one taught to place the weapon off the shoulder to the outside (that doesn't mean it has never happened! but I would be curious to see the POI or method of instruction or school in which it is taught)...it would be odd as the weapon's overall shorter length is suited for CQB (as it has been adopted by much of US law enorcement for the same purpose) ..... people have used the M16 in a like fashion as it is longer and not as multifunctional as it will not collapse and has a longer stock and barrell.

The technique of a single primary and secondary weapon firing stance of squaring your shoulders to the target and presenting your ba/traumaplate to the enemy only (as opposed to a weaver which can present your under arm and side where armour is weakest) is not uncommon... most people strive to keep the M4 tight to the chest/inside shoulder as it keeps elbows in and controlled for movement, posture, it is tight enough that your non-firing hand can be removed from the weapon with out dropping the ready...like making a line straight out from cheek to target straight off you chest,inside shoulder, moving the weapon to your head not the opposite...it makes for solid transitions from low ready, ready and a modified "Sul" position and from weapon to weapon adn it also allows for strong weapon retention.. most actions can be taken/started from this stance.

I cannot speak for the US Army as a whole, obviously nor am I the armies "subject matter expert", but I can tell you what I have seen taught.

Argyll

09-06-2003, 02:45 PM

Stoli,I got that information from a serving member of the USMC!!,if you take a look at a lot of CQB pics in this forum,you'll notice this butt out technique,I argued as well about its validity when sighting,but again in CQB we uesd the "shotgun aiming" method,ie both eyes open lookind down the barrel ,not through the sight,it may also be refered to speed shooting!

Ok I looked up an old thread from another forum,and the style you see is an approved method called "Short stocking" used in MOUT ops,perhaps some of the serving guys can elaborate a bit more?

ibstolidude

09-06-2003, 03:17 PM

USMC - there you go -

they predominately use the M16 as opposed to the M4 and often you see:
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_Iraqi_Freedom_Marines/usmc243_001.jpg
or
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_Iraqi_Freedom_Marines/usmc236_001.jpg

or
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_Iraqi_Freedom_Marines/usmc228_001.jpg

and with a m249
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_Iraqi_Freedom_Marines/usmc242_001.jpg

But with the M4 the over the shoulder technique is not realy used due to the length - http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/USSOCOM_Training/z_sft03.jpg
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/USSOCOM_Training/d_sft01.jpg - far right shooter perfect example
atlast a marine with an M4!!
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_Iraqi_Freedom_Army_Special_Forces/ussf509

I'm sure some still do it the old M16 way, but I would be surprised to see it taught with an M4, BUT as I said maybe the marines are different and I am NOT the authority, I only pass what I have seen taught/practiced.
take care

ibstolidude

09-06-2003, 03:26 PM

I KNEW I saw this photo somewhere! - perfect example of the described stance
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp16.jpg
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp15.jpg
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp21.jpg
excellant album and thanks to the man who sent me there!
using one hand to maintain low ready, other hand to search/open (even with the supressor)http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp14.jpg

I guess they just do it different in the Marines??

Deuterium

09-06-2003, 03:36 PM

First and foremost the first pictures are of MPs, no offense but they are amatuers. One of the pictures shows the guy with a finger on the trigger with the weapon in the down position. Not only an amatuer but a dangerous one at that. The question of butstock and should has a lot to do with body armor. Anyone with trigger time will tell you how hard it is to maintain a goodbutstock to sholder while wearing body armor.

Light Fighter

09-06-2003, 03:49 PM

For beign SRT, they have their flags facing the wrong direction on their shoulders...

ibstolidude

09-06-2003, 11:03 PM

More From this site:
this time not US or w/m4 (from someone elses posts!!)
but the stance none the less
http://www.defence.gov.au/gallery/large/C0226110.jpg

Glass1

09-07-2003, 12:15 PM

I think some people are a little to quick to make assumptions that pics are "airsoft" or "fake"... I'd say these pic are probably real for several reasons.

1.) The guns aren't airsoft guns. I'm not going to go to far to elaborate on that, you can take my word for it or not...whatever. But, the mags in the M4's have the worn down "coppery brass" look that they take on after alot of use. Airsoft mags don't. They just flake off paint and show the bright white aluminum alloy junk they are made of. The handguard on the M4 is to small to be the airsoft version, which is oversized to fit the battery. One of the pistols the Koreans are using doesn't even have an airsoft model. etc, etc, etc.

And yes, I do play airsoft, but I also am involved in tactical training and have been shooting the real stuff for the better half of 20 years.

Anyway, 2.) If these are fake, why are a bunch of well-built American men with crew cuts that appears to be in at least their early twenties, doing "playing airsoft" with a bunch of Korean guys in Korea? Doesn't make much sense. Check out the surroundings and the signs... it is obviously Korea and not So. Cal or some place stateside.

Why are they wearing their flags backwards? Good question, I don't know. But I have seen other soldiers do it other places in the world and I would imagine it has alot to do with immediate availability and priority.

Chet Mystery

09-07-2003, 12:25 PM

I agree with Glass, these are not airsofters. In addition to his resons, I also see the M4s pistol grip is hollow (in airsoft, there is a plate covering the bottom) and the MP5s have the older 3 round burst option (not seen on any airsoft model or aftermarket part).

The only things that get me is why they are without any type of body armor and what they are really doing. Its obviously not a real operation, but some kind of photo op.

eggroll

09-07-2003, 12:38 PM

Also, it is illegal for Korean civilians to wear "Gyung-Chal" Police plates.

During the Universidade, you can bet that "softers toting realistic looking AEGS would NOT be allowed anywhere near the site, let alone be able to rappel off apartment building.

This was a testy time considering the North Korean athletic contingent that was present for this event.

EGG

ibstolidude

09-07-2003, 12:54 PM

my question of the validity of the pics (considering they are form an airsoft site not a news media site), is not if they are airsoft or not (I am not aware I have ever commented on the is this pic real game.) but as to who they are, and I question the validity of anything that someone else posts and I am unable to research myself...I have no idea who those people are in the pics - as I don't read Korean (the webstie from which it came) I am unable to tell. - but the photos do not indicate to me who they are -
Deliberate Assualt with out any BA, barrier/etry vest or like system? even people who HATE that stuff tend to wear it when they know that shooting wil take place (train like you fight) - I just have no idea who they are...they could be the most compitent men in the world or a bunch of half-ass.
For all I know they could be anyone...

BUT that said - the point of my original posts was to answer SIRPAD and discuss with Argyll, not play "is it real or airsoft"

:edited for clarity:

---------------
Natural born skeptic

Schiller

09-07-2003, 12:57 PM

Looks quite real to me, mates. Considerning all the gears, the guns, the rappeling, the Korean signs in the background, the optics on the MP5s, Universiade volunteer helpers, shooting stance, and all.......

Wouldn't judge this photo as airsofters. Maybe simply a photo-op for the camera.

Argyll

09-07-2003, 01:16 PM

No the weapons may not be airsoft...........have you never heard of replicas?
the current M4's have RIS/RAS rails almsot as standard,for SRT I'd expect to have various attachment s fitted onto the weapon such as flashlight Laser illuminators etc,the thing with the mag is bull,you can buy 2nd hand mags that look old and fit them into Model weapons ,or even deactivated...............that does not solely make these pics legit,also has anyone considered that these are maybe actors who were making a movie?

Anyway I'm not really interested in the setup ,again I was more interested in the concept seen here refered to as "Short stocking"

Glass1

09-07-2003, 02:19 PM

Argyll, whatever man. I guess this can be stretched as far as ones imagination wants to go... Yeah, I've heard of replicas. I can't see why they'd be using them, however. And why would the guys mount EOTech sights on a gun that doesn't shoot? You brought up the "replica gun" thing, and it was not mentioned prior so I don't see how you can say the mag issue is "bull" as we were discussing "airsoft vs. real", but whatever makes you happy. :roll:

Good points from the rest of you guys, and I know Egg by reputation. Feel free to argue anything you want with him concerning Korea and their LE and military equipment, policies, etc. It would make for a quick discussion.... ;)

ibstolidude

09-07-2003, 02:56 PM

oh and in reference to the flag question:

if they are US Army - as far as which way the flag faces the rules would d be a prescribed in Army Regulation 670-1 28-8
(a) "During joint or multi-nation operations, soldiers are authorized to wear the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica on utility and organizational uniforms. Wear of the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is at the discretion of the organizational commander, when the distinguishing of individual national soldiers is desired, and overrides the tactical consideration of full-color insignia on uniforms. During joint operations, the joint commander normally will prescribe the policy for wear. Soldiers are not authorized to wear the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica upon their return to home
station."
"(2) The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flag's own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer's right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward. The appropriate replica for the right shoulder sleeve is identified as the reverse side flag."

I'm not sure if these dudes are Army so it may not apply - why their flag is facing the opposite direction? who knows - I have seen it before and some people claim that it is because they are not "fwd deployed", but as described above that is still incorrect (for the Army anywho, as they were referred to as MPs.)

Argyll

09-07-2003, 03:45 PM

Glass1

09-07-2003, 03:59 PM

Airsoft guns do shoot, unlike "replicas".... good luck finding the info you after on short stocking.

To my knowledge and experience, "field boots" aren't required to be immaculately shined, only garrison boots.

Argyll

09-07-2003, 05:24 PM

No ,I know about short stocking,I got that info from a serving USMC,as I seen pictures of stocks not extended on the M4s,and I questione the shooters ability to apply marksmanship principles,if he could not get the butt into his shoulder,what he said was the way the stock appears outside of the shoulder ,is an approved method called "short stocking" primarily used in CQB/MOUT scenarios.
Ibstolidude was commenting that he never heard of it,and from his past experience thought the info may be incoreect I think!

The point about the boots was being pedantic,everything else looks bright and shiny,almost new,so the boots should still be highly polished!

ibstolidude

09-07-2003, 05:46 PM

correct for M16's (although back then we were taught to place up on shoulder)
but incorrect for the M4.
from army teaching stand point (as I experienced)
USMC - me=??

JunglistSoldier

09-07-2003, 06:01 PM

When fighting in close, the TTP is to use a "boxers stance", ie. square against the target. This will make you more responsive towards any threts and it will up your protection level from body armour.

When shooting like this the stock is places towards the center of the chest, hence the short stock.

ibstolidude

09-07-2003, 06:34 PM

did you NOT read the posts?? miss all the pictures? or just decide to re-state?

Argyll

09-07-2003, 06:49 PM

who me?
I'm not folowing where you're going with this?
Perhaps there has been a crossed wire somewhere,somebody mentioned the way the stock was not in the shoulder being wrong,I replied saying that there is a method ,you posted pics to back the method up,and also the pics of the regular shoooting stance,which I never disagreed with,so wheres this going?

Bulkowski

09-07-2003, 06:57 PM

ibstolidude

09-07-2003, 07:06 PM

sorry Argyll - I meant the repost by Junglist---
there have been a couple of people posting that which has already been stated and that the post was mixing your description of what the USMC troop w/16 stated they referred to as short stocking as oppossed to the Army w/m4...

I often forget that this is a Msg Board not a chat style and wires easily cross.

Argyll

09-07-2003, 07:08 PM

I never said they didn't work,I said what was the point?
Its like the whole airsoft thing,what's the point of just playing soldiers when you can go out an be a real one,or even join a TA unit,or a National Guard unit in the US,you see I'm not that great a lover who think that airsoft is a really cool game,especially emulating current Operational Units and the such,there are guys who do it for real,where mistakes costs lives,and it is deadly serious,and I think you'll find that 90% of them have no time for people who play at being a soldier,sure its a great training tool,but to me it looks very very expensive,just to play at being a soldier,where if you screw up,you get called a stupid c**t and still get to go home at the end of the day,the real deals don't have that luxury.
However if that is what folks want to do then it's their money and their choice.....fair play to them!

Stoli no probs mate .........have a good un!

Dominique

09-07-2003, 07:16 PM

Glass,as I said I don't particualrily care about their validity as I mentioned,shoot me the Military link and I'll maybe believe them a bit more,but as someones said,why post these from an AIRSOFT site.

Why would guys mount sights on a gun that doesn't shoot..........ask an airsofter the same Question then?.its all about looking the part I guess.

I'll tell you another thing from the pics,as an en squaddie myself,these guys have what looks like brand new flightsuits and kit,but the guys boots lack military cleanliness,and if these guys are Genuine Military,then their boots would be immaculate !!
Also the sidearm looks like a basic 92F/S...so from that I would assume that they are not USMC who I believe issue their SRT guys with 1911's.
But like I said whatever.............I was more interested in Stolis' comments about "short stocking"

OK I don't know if the pics are real or not, but I can tell you a little about SRT's or Special Reaction Teams. Both US Army and USMC MP units maintain SRTs. The Army has a SRT in Korea that does conduct joint training with the Korean Army, And the USAF ESTs based there.

Both the Army and USMC still issue the M-9 as their standard pistol. The only guys that get issued .45s are Force Recon Direct Action Platoons (DAP). Thye get aa modifed M-1911 called a MEU(SOC) .45.

As far as the rifles they do look like M-4 carbines.

When it comes to boots, I know I have several pair. One for everyday ware, a pair of Jungle Boots for field use, and pair I keep for inspections, parades, etc. and two pair of very well worn assault boots from when I was on a tactical team. I didn't shine them becuse I din't have to. There was no purpose in it.

The flight suits could be new, but since I can't really see them that clearly, I don't know. As far As the patches go, they are displayed incorrectly.

The helmets are deffinately not on the unit's standard MTO&E.

I can dig around and ask some of the MPs that just got here from Korea what the SRT guys are issued to ware just to find out though.

Dominique Sumner
Virginia Tactical Police Association
South Carolina Tactical Officers Association
US Correctional Tactical Officers Association

eggroll

09-08-2003, 01:00 AM

well, for what its worth, the bus is actually a police unit - notice the assaulter platform on the rear roof of the bus. So what if the pics came from an Airsoft site. Chances are real good that the 'photog who snapped these HAPPENS to an softer fanatic and had storage space at an AS site.

The suits worn are interesting as they are NOT flight suits but rather purpose designed CQB nomex coveralls. Note no knife pocket and different breast pocket alignment angles. The black vests can very well be 'on the economy' produced copies of BHI and/or Eagle vests.... come on now, this is Korea ya know.

my 500won and a chocopie

EGG

fokket

09-08-2003, 10:41 AM

They ARE real people...

It is from airsoft webiste, but the gallery the photos were in for only for 'real-people' stuff.

the SRTs are from 8th Army MP.

The Korean doods belonging to Daegu Police dept. where the
Universide matches were.

superpeltor

09-08-2003, 12:22 PM

This is real pictures, I read about this training on one of Korean Daily newpaper. They are practicing for Universiad Games in Daegu, Korea.

Proof on the pic? Look at one of American soldier's magazine. If it is really airsoft, it would have different color (like solid black.) This is what well-used M-16 style mags look like... (bronze color)

superpeltor

JunglistSoldier

09-09-2003, 07:15 PM

did you NOT read the posts?? miss all the pictures? or just decide to re-state?

I've read all the posts but I felt that I could bring more clarity into it, especially sience noone mentioned the boxers stance or that the weapon is held 'center line'.

ibstolidude

09-09-2003, 07:42 PM

when facing/squaring up on a target up close and presenting your trauma plate/armour as protection (as if you are a tringle w/the target/barrell tip as the peak/your legs the base) many find it difficult to keep the stock extended.

The technique of a single primary and secondary weapon firing stance of squaring your shoulders to the target and presenting your ba/traumaplate to the enemy only (as opposed to a weaver which can present your under arm and side where armour is weakest) is not uncommon... (sic blah blah sic)...like making a line straight out from cheek to target straight off you chest,inside shoulder, moving the weapon to your head not the opposite...(sic blah blah sic)

Not sure of what you call a boxer's stance...isosceles stance ?
i guess my grammar really is much for sucking! (insert bad accent) :roll:
I was just crabby I guess as we were being drawn further and further off topic... as I posted I often forget it isn't a chat.
take care.

SABER 2-3

09-09-2003, 08:29 PM

I'm w/ Stoli on this one. These probably are MPs but these are not skilled MPs. Body armor is a must along w/ ballistic helmets. The "butt out" carry method? OK...The most common and effective method is to have your rifle butt already in your shoulders pocket w/ the weapon at a 45-55 degree cant allowing the shooter to in one motion snap the weapon into a good firing stance (squared up). I personally like my stock fully closed due to the bulk of my armor and assault vest. Also if these guys are pros why are all of their feet and weapons on the inside of the leading man and where are their tactical elevation devices (ladders) for bus assaulting. Also U.S. Flags are not worn on their left shoulders as well for some unknown reason.

JunglistSoldier

09-09-2003, 09:11 PM

The technique of a single primary and secondary weapon firing stance of squaring your shoulders to the target and presenting your ba/traumaplate to the enemy only (as opposed to a weaver which can present your under arm and side where armour is weakest) is not uncommon... (sic blah blah sic)...like making a line straight out from cheek to target straight off you chest,inside shoulder, moving the weapon to your head not the opposite...(sic blah blah sic)

Not sure of what you call a boxer's stance...isosceles stance ?
i guess my grammar really is much for sucking! (insert bad accent) :roll:
I was just crabby I guess as we were being drawn further and further off topic... as I posted I often forget it isn't a chat.
take care.[/quote]

Must have missed that post, and a good post at that.

Boxers stance, ie feet almost pararel to eachother, knees bent, leaning forward. Not sure what it's called in "gun-latin" :D

But besides your very good points in that post, there is also the fact that one becomes ultra responsive to threths and you can track said threats with your whole body instead of just your weapon.

I hope i didn't step on any toes there :)

ibstolidude

09-09-2003, 09:27 PM

Junglist-
You didn't step toes - as I stated I was a crabass that day...

I just didn't know what was meant by a boxer's stance. It sounds as if we are discussing the same basic stance - we (i.e. people with whom I work, not say that everyone else doesn't call it that) dont' refer to it as boxer's stance, although we practice firing, moving, transitions and h2h fighting (god help my skinny ass) was all done form this same stance. For all reason posted (by all) and the ability to move using your knees as shock absorbers keeping your upper body level (close to bounceless) a practice that equals a restfull sleep at night after long hours of practice.

....others may be able to elaborate much further.

take care.

JohnJohn

09-09-2003, 10:46 PM

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/USSOCOM_Training/d_sft01.jpg

ibstolidude, these are not US Marines, the men in this photograph are US Army Rangers (http://www.armyranger.com/mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=63) from the 2nd Battalion of the 75th Ranger Regiment being dropped off from a MH-6 from the Special Operations Wing Task Force 160.

Seraphim

09-10-2003, 05:50 AM

He was just showing pics of how they hold the weapons.
:bash:

ibstolidude

09-10-2003, 11:32 AM

John john - that is EXACTLY why I posted them - to show the commonly taught firing stance in the US Army w/employment of the M4...
If you read the ALL of posts and the pic captions it may make better sense, you'll note on the only 1 picture from the marines with the M4 I state: "Finally a marine with an M4!.."
death is in the details.

SABER 2-3

09-10-2003, 05:43 PM

Homer Simpson is the MAN. IBSTOLIDUDE in honor of your gift for making others here post the obvious and redundant; my team will now be calling the stance your talking about the "IB READY" stance/position. So let it be written. So let it be done.

Chris196

09-10-2003, 11:52 PM

Marines with M4's, shooting them in the appropriate CQB stance with the stocks close enough to compensate for armor and loadbearing gear:

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/d9dec01f054e69fb85256ce20032ae71/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-001lores.jpg
High Res
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/d9dec01f054e69fb85256ce20032ae71/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-001.jpg

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/e4f93b8d7e18531285256ce20030c07d/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-005lores.jpg
High Res
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/e4f93b8d7e18531285256ce20030c07d/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-005.jpg

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/b42bedaf489fae1785256ce200313438/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-004lores.jpg
High Res
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/b42bedaf489fae1785256ce200313438/$FILE/030305-M-7371B-004.jpg

More:
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/20033734035