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2RHPZ
10-02-2004, 11:11 AM
Next US leader faces China-Taiwan row

By Paul Reynolds
BBC News Online world affairs correspondent

The next US president, whoever he is, will find that one of his pre-occupations will be China and Taiwan - and how to stop their war of words from becoming a full-blown conflict.

The latest verbal exchange between Beijing and Taipei raises a potentially new danger - that of Taiwan acquiring an offensive missile capability.

Taiwan's current defence policy is precisely that - defence.

If it decided to develop or buy ballistic or, more likely, cruise missiles - with which it could threaten Chinese cities - the delicate balance that now exists could be upset.

China might regard such weapons as a threat - or even an excuse for an invasion.

A $18bn US arms package agreed in 2001 is due to provide Taiwan with a series of defensive systems - four ex-US Navy destroyers, eight diesel submarines, 12 P-3 Orion anti-submarine aircraft and a number of anti-ship missiles, artillery pieces and helicopters.

Subsequently the US agreed to sell Taiwan the advanced Patriot anti-missile system PAC-3, which would be its main defence against any Chinese ballistic attack.

The issue of an offensive capability was raised recently by Taiwanese Premier Yu Shyi-kun, who said that if China was able to attack cities in Taiwan, then Taiwan should be able to respond.

"If you attack Taipei and Kaohsiung, I should at least be able to strike Shanghai," he declared.

China accused him of "clamouring for war" and claimed that Taiwan was "obstinately carrying out splittist activities".

In Chinese Communist Party vocabulary "splittist" is about as bad as it gets. It means Taiwanese independence, something China will not accept.

Missile imbalance

According to Doug Richardson, editor of Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Taiwanese talk of missiles has been prompted by the military imbalance between Beijing and Taipei.

China has 500 ballistic missiles stationed opposite Taiwan, he says, and the build-up is clearly designed to deter Taiwan from declaring independence.

"It's pretty one-sided," Mr Richardson said.

He added that China was also testing its own cruise missile called Dong Hai-10, or East China Sea-10. Taiwan is in the East China Sea.

The United States is committed to defending Taiwan, but under a doctrine known as "strategic ambiguity" the nature of that defence was left unclear for years.

Certainly it included selling arms, albeit of a defensive type, but there was no commitment to going to war on Taiwan's behalf if China ever invaded.

The Bush administration sought to change "strategic ambiguity" into what it calls "strategic clarity".

President Bush made a statement in 2001 that the US would do "whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself."

However at the same time, the US does not want Taiwan to declare independence. In effect, it wants the status quo to persist.

The Republican presidential election platform has restated this policy with the words: "America will help Taiwan defend itself."

But the Democrats are vaguer. "We are committed to a One China policy and will continue to support a peaceful resolution of cross-Straits issues," the party states.

Adam Ward, Senior Fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, said the clarity sought by Mr Bush had not been entirely successful.

"Each side interprets it to its own advantage," he argued. "This will require continuing deep engagement by whoever is president."

Pentagon report

The Pentagon also "muddied the waters" in a report to Congress in July about China's military strength, he added.

This report said: "Asymmetric capabilities that Taiwan possesses or is acquiring could deter a Chinese attack by making it unacceptably costly. Taiwan will most likely expand these capabilities either in tandem with or in lieu of improving its conventional forces."

The report specifically referred to types of weapons system.

"Taipei political and military leaders have recently suggested acquiring weapons systems capable of stand-off strikes against the Chinese mainland as a cost-effective means of deterrence."

"Leaders have publicly cited the need for ballistic and land-attack cruise missiles," it went on.

Even specific targets were mentioned.

"Proponents of strikes against the mainland apparently hope that merely presenting credible threats to China's urban population or high-value targets, such as the Three Gorges Dam, will deter Chinese military coercion."

Such comments sparked concern among analysts in the US.

David Lampton, a veteran China watcher at the John Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies and the Nixon Center (itself no friend of communist regimes) wrote in the Straits Times: "Offensive deterrence is a terrible idea for Taiwan."

"In moving in offensive directions, Taipei could well provide Beijing with a pretext for pre-emption," he stated.

Some observers hope that the recent change of command over the Chinese armed forces from Jiang Zemin to President Hu Jintao will reduce tensions.

Most analysts say that while the new Chinese leadership is not giving up a claim to Taiwan, it might be more patient in pursuing it.

The question is also whether Taiwan, too, will be patient - and not go for its own offensive weapons.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3701114.stm)

Rakki
10-02-2004, 01:25 PM
Kerry will suck PRC ****... he's no stranger to the taste.

East
10-02-2004, 01:38 PM
Kerry will suck PRC ****... he's no stranger to the taste.

Sad thought, but probably true, we will just have to wait and see. Btw, nice avatar Cag, I hope I learned my lesson. Never drink water and read military photos forums, hilarity may ensue.

Roktiken
10-02-2004, 07:17 PM
Yah cause Bush would really do anything. This is the same president who has refused to do anything about Iran and the DPRK and has focused soley on a broken enemy such as that of Iraq.

Sir Zach of R.
10-02-2004, 11:52 PM
Yah cause Bush would really do anything. This is the same president who has refused to do anything about Iran and the DPRK and has focused soley on a broken enemy such as that of Iraq.

Dude, we haven't even built an "alliance" yet. Let Europe handle those bastards for now while the US kills terrorists in Iraq, Columbia, Phillipines, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and other ****-holes of the world. We've already got some 30,000 troops in SK keeping Lil' Kim in check so I think we're ok there. Besides, that little mouse turd of a president the NK has knows that if he launches nukes, he can kiss his sorry excuse of a government good bye. Same for Iran. Plus we've got reports that Israel might be preparing for a strike on Iran, so we'll see what happens.

Kepi.Blanc
10-03-2004, 01:24 AM
maybe our next President should label China for what it is:- a "terrorist state" or "evil nation" at least this way the American people would have a clear idea who our enemy is.

ezhuang
10-03-2004, 05:14 AM
maybe our next President should label China for what it is:- a "terrorist state" or "evil nation" at least this way the American people would have a clear idea who our enemy is.

Why a country always have to find an enemy for its citizen? whos the enemy is after mainland China, whos will be the one after that? If u dont enjoy peace, why dont u go to Iraq, Iran etc to fight "terrorists"? and let other people concentrate on economy development and improvement of peoples welfare which is what mainland China is doing now. u r sick.

Kilgor
10-03-2004, 05:24 AM
I think he was taking the piss mate....

chil :P

Mark Sman
10-03-2004, 05:55 AM
whos the enemy is after mainland China,

G'day enemy. And yes.

I am taking the piss.

Hawk of prairie
10-03-2004, 07:13 AM
Why a country always have to find an enemy for its citizen? whos the enemy is after mainland China, whos will be the one after that? If u dont enjoy peace, why dont u go to Iraq, Iran etc to fight "terrorists"? and let other people concentrate on economy development and improvement of peoples welfare which is what mainland China is doing now. u r sick.i think china is the final mission,none would be after it

OB Kenobi
10-03-2004, 07:33 AM
Why a country always have to find an enemy for its citizen?

$$$

GrimmyRX
10-03-2004, 03:06 PM
It's almost like you guys WANT to fight and kill for any reason at all.

Roktiken
10-03-2004, 06:16 PM
Yah cause Bush would really do anything. This is the same president who has refused to do anything about Iran and the DPRK and has focused soley on a broken enemy such as that of Iraq.

Dude, we haven't even built an "alliance" yet. Let Europe handle those bastards for now while the US kills terrorists in Iraq, Columbia, Phillipines, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and other ****-holes of the world. We've already got some 30,000 troops in SK keeping Lil' Kim in check so I think we're ok there. Besides, that little mouse turd of a president the NK has knows that if he launches nukes, he can kiss his sorry excuse of a government good bye. Same for Iran. Plus we've got reports that Israel might be preparing for a strike on Iran, so we'll see what happens.

Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. The US could of stopped North Korea from developing and creating Nukes but did nothing to stop it and look now North Korea now has upwards of 10+ nukes. And what are those 30,000 troops going to do against an army of nearly 2 million ready to cross the border at a moments notice, not to mention thethousands and thousands of artillery pieces, missiles and god knows what else pointed at them and Seoul locked, loaded, and ready to fire. Ive said it before and I will say it again, the US Troops currently guarding the DMZ would last no longer than an hour if a full scale war erupted.

And if that Mouse turd of a president launch nukes a few million people will die, including 30,000 US troops, ever think of that one, 30,000 US troops, gone, bye-bye, never to be seen again.

GrimmyRX
10-03-2004, 08:41 PM
Yah cause Bush would really do anything. This is the same president who has refused to do anything about Iran and the DPRK and has focused soley on a broken enemy such as that of Iraq.

Dude, we haven't even built an "alliance" yet. Let Europe handle those bastards for now while the US kills terrorists in Iraq, Columbia, Phillipines, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and other ****-holes of the world. We've already got some 30,000 troops in SK keeping Lil' Kim in check so I think we're ok there. Besides, that little mouse turd of a president the NK has knows that if he launches nukes, he can kiss his sorry excuse of a government good bye. Same for Iran. Plus we've got reports that Israel might be preparing for a strike on Iran, so we'll see what happens.

Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. The US could of stopped North Korea from developing and creating Nukes but did nothing to stop it and look now North Korea now has upwards of 10+ nukes. And what are those 30,000 troops going to do against an army of nearly 2 million ready to cross the border at a moments notice, not to mention thethousands and thousands of artillery pieces, missiles and god knows what else pointed at them and Seoul locked, loaded, and ready to fire. Ive said it before and I will say it again, the US Troops currently guarding the DMZ would last no longer than an hour if a full scale war erupted.

And if that Mouse turd of a president launch nukes a few million people will die, including 30,000 US troops, ever think of that one, 30,000 US troops, gone, bye-bye, never to be seen again.

Eh, a couple of days, I'd think. The Americans and the SK are really dug in.

Besides, they were never ment to hold the line, they were ment to be a delay tactic to the main force can actually cross over in time.

Sir Zach of R.
10-03-2004, 09:07 PM
I wasn't talking about NK, I was talking about Iran. I'm talking about the "Big Three" or whatever the major media outlets are calling them. They are France, Britain, and Germany. As far as I know they are the only major countries taking a very large step in preventing Iran from developing nukes (not counting Israel). About NK now. Those 30,000 troops in SK could easily stop an NK invasion so long as they could hold off enemy troops for at least a week. The most likely scenario would be NK troops crossing border, and US air power immediately responding from bases in Osan and nearby Japan. Now, it is my personal belief that no action has been taken against NK because of the current situation in Iraq, the stans, and South America. A good friend whose dad flies KC-135s out of McConnell, has told me that Boeing's new anti-ICBM 747 is in SK, and performing regular patrols. Plus, there has got to be some sort of missile which can be fitted to an F-15C that'll go to the tip of the atmosphere and detonate the ICBM before it gets within lethal range. Like I said, even if an NK ICBM did reach Seoul or Pusan or some other city, every Titan IV missile that still has a warhead on it is gonna be enroute to NK within 10 minutes, and on top of that, B-2's will be flying out of Whiteman AFB within 2 hours, carrying every type of tactical nuke in US arsenal. And don't forget that Bush didn't give Kim Jong Il the ability to produce nukes, the Clinton administration did. As far as I know, NK wasn't part of the Axis of Evil until Jong Il announced he had nukes. I could be wrong. But I have always considered NK to be a threat, after all, they are socialist-commies. ;) I might also add that not only would the US respond with nukes, but it is likely that France and other nuke holding nations would also respond.

And from what I've heard you say in some of your last posts, I would conclude that you actually would rather have 30,000 US troops dead, than have the world ridded of a mad-man who drinks so much Cognac his hair stands on end.

Make sure you read all of that just so you realize how stupid you are. :bash:

Kilgor
10-03-2004, 10:02 PM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Oh please, why not stay silent because your comming across more and more as a idiot every day.

The fact is North korea has been highly hostile ever since the 1st war in the area and spewed out hateful retoric ever since. Bush's axis of evil speech hardly made a difference to what has been decades of tension.

Seiyuuki
10-03-2004, 10:29 PM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Nomination for stupidity in logic of the year award.

Kilgor
10-03-2004, 10:32 PM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Nomination for stupidity in logic of the year award.

yeah

north korea was so cool with america before bush's axis of evil speech rofl

Lovely Pencils
10-03-2004, 11:16 PM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Nomination for stupidity in logic of the year award.

yeah

north korea was so cool with america before bush's axis of evil speech rofl
LMAO! Kim is a really funny guy :D his hairstyle n his glasses! Woah! you will nv find them anywhere.

Ghostwolf
10-03-2004, 11:57 PM
LMAO! Kim is a really funny guy :D his hairstyle n his glasses! Woah! you will nv find them anywhere.

Except in the 60's that is.

Roktiken
10-04-2004, 12:07 AM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Oh please, why not stay silent because your comming across more and more as a idiot every day.

The fact is North korea has been highly hostile ever since the 1st war in the area and spewed out hateful retoric ever since. Bush's axis of evil speech hardly made a difference to what has been decades of tension.

Yes NK was still hostile before Bush enterd office, but before Bush was in office they never had Nuclear WEAPONS! It has been during Bush's administration that America has allowed NK to go unchecked, allowing the government there to develope and build Nukes, and now thanks to the blind eye of America the chance of all out war on the Korean penninsula is greater than ever.

Thanks Mr. Bush, you're foriegn Policy is terrific!

woot

Sir Zach of R.
10-04-2004, 12:28 AM
Damn, I usually don't say this often but will the mods ban this little commie!

Kilgor
10-04-2004, 01:17 AM
Thanks Mr. Bush, you're foriegn Policy is terrific!

woot

launch a pre-emptive strike to kill the nuke program = bush is a warmongering imperialist.

Dont launch a strike = bush isnt doing enough to remove the nuke program.

Yes.. we all know how far left idiots like you think. Or lack of it...

:cantbeli:

jd123
10-04-2004, 01:18 AM
Why should Europe handle the North Korean problem? The US has more stake in the penninsula than Europe does, and remember that is was Bush who triggerd North Korea going Ultra Radical with him putting the DPRK on the Axis of evil list, same with Iran. .

Oh please, why not stay silent because your comming across more and more as a idiot every day.

The fact is North korea has been highly hostile ever since the 1st war in the area and spewed out hateful retoric ever since. Bush's axis of evil speech hardly made a difference to what has been decades of tension.

Yes NK was still hostile before Bush enterd office, but before Bush was in office they never had Nuclear WEAPONS! It has been during Bush's administration that America has allowed NK to go unchecked, allowing the government there to develope and build Nukes, and now thanks to the blind eye of America the chance of all out war on the Korean penninsula is greater than ever.

Thanks Mr. Bush, you're foriegn Policy is terrific!

woot


Always blame on someone who is not responsible. You sounded like you'll agree that guns kill people. why don't u blame Ike for this problem? The fact is sanction never worked and never will. Either you open a country like N.korean with $ or with gun powder. And the Koreans can be bought, because they got no natural resources to fight a war.

Roktiken
10-04-2004, 01:29 AM
Damn, I usually don't say this often but will the mods ban this little commie!

For what? Speaking my mind and not riding along the obvious Right wing train which runs through this forum?

Sorry for using my right of freedom of speech, you sheep.

And JD what should of been done was America and Bush administration should of focused on the more important problem, not something like the situation in Iraq which was well under countrol. America should of gone into North Korea either diplomaticly with an agenda or a pre-emptive strike.

All North Korea wants is a non-aggression pact with the US, some food, power and recognition in the international community, this could of been done, all America had to of done was to sit down and listen, not go in, talk and forget everything which was said which was and has been done thus far.

If the Diplomatic game did not work, then all which was needed was a coordinated pre-emptive strike on the NK's nuclear facilities, after those were destroyed I would think Kim Jong Ill would of backed off from launching an all out war.

Rakki
10-04-2004, 03:26 AM
If you are so freakin' clever and want to send troops into North Korea (don't forget, the South Koreans will be right THERE soaking up the NK artillery and chemical/biological weapons) and think you can solve the world's problem by making huge-ass-sumptions, then feel free to run for President.

Roktiken
10-04-2004, 03:29 AM
If you are so freakin' clever and want to send troops into North Korea (don't forget, the South Koreans will be right THERE soaking up the NK artillery and chemical/biological weapons) and think you can solve the world's problem by making huge-ass-sumptions, then feel free to run for President.

I would, by unfortunly I am Canadian so I cant ;)

Rakki
10-04-2004, 03:43 AM
That explains the cluelessness. It's amazing how clever backseat drivers think they are when they aren't the ones holding the wheel.