More Than 30 Hurt in Blast Near Tel Aviv

[He219]

The Cycle of Violence continues....


More Than 30 Hurt in Blast Near Tel Aviv

JERUSALEM (*******) - An explosion caused at least 15 casualties outside an Israeli army base near Tel Aviv, the Magen David Adom ambulance service said.

It said the blast occurred at a soldier's hitchhiking station at an entrance to the Tzrifin camp, one of the largest in central Israel. Police described the explosion as a terrorist attack. The camp is adjacent to a major hospital.

More Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20030909/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_explosion).

[ArmoredDov_D9]

The sucide bombing attack was in a bus stop near Zrifin base and Asaf HaRofe Hospital.

According to the latest reports, there are 4 dead and at least 30 wounded.



Hamas head killed in Hebron

The head of Hamas in Hebron, Ahmed Bader, was killed by IDF forces who lay siege on a 8 stories building in Hebron.

Beside Bader (once Quwassama's henchman) another Hamas terrorist was killed. There are more terrorist hiding in the building and in order not to risk soldier lives Combat Engineering soldiers are set to blown up the house.

All civilians were evacuated.

The event is still in progress.

[He219]

You mean this building. Good job getting Bader.
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/i/1063111810.3959922786.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/i/1063111699.3959832673.jpg

However, not 'all civilians were evacuated' alive.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030909/thumb.sge.dey63.090903152205.photo00.default-261x384.jpg
Casualty. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030909/241/57wly.html) Warning! Graphic Image.

A Palestinian man evacuates the body of Thaer al-Siouri to a hospital in the divided West Bank town of Hebron. The 13-year-old Palestinian boy was killed by shrapnel from an Israeli missile as he watched a shootout between Israeli soldiers and militants, holed-up in an apartment building in the West Bank city of Hebron, witnesses said.(AFP/Hazem Bader)

One must not deminish the effects of any civilian casualties, on either side. The cycle has to be broken.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/i/1063125312.2953256995.jpg

Israeli rescue workers search the scene after an explosion outside an army base near Tel Aviv September 9, 2003. A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up outside a major army camp near Tel Aviv on Tuesday, killing at least two people and wounding about 30, police and rescue workers said. Photo by Nir Elias/*******

[ArmoredDov_D9]

As for the boy - it is not clear if participated in fighting against IDF soldiers.

Secondly, when I said "all civilians were evacuated" I ment that the building with the terrorists inside is empty from civilians.

Latest Updates:

* In the bomb attack near Zrifin base and Asaf-HaRofe Hospital there are 7 victims beside the terrorist. Hamas took responsibility.
* IDF SF forces killed Ahmed Bader and his henchman in Hebron.
* The building was blown up by IDF forces and collapsed after it wasshellled by tanks. Bulldozer soon to be brought to clear the debris.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Just happened - explosion in Jerusalem, probably a terrorist attack. Magen David Adom declared it as a large-casulties-event

:( :( :(

23:34 Israel time:
The attack took place in Bet-Hillel Cafe in Emek Refaim st. There a lot wounded and there are also dead victims.
What caused the explosion was probably a car rigged with explosives.

23:55 Israel time:
The attack took place in Bet-Hillel Cafe in Emek Refaim st in the German Quarter (HaMoshava A-Germanit). There a lot wounded and there are at least 5 dead victims.
What caused the explosion was a suicide bomber.

[Spine]

Good to see that 'rooting out terrorists' has made Israel so much safer.

[He219]

At Least 10 Dead in Bomb Attacks in Israel
By Mark Heinrich

JERUSALEM (*******) - Palestinian suicide bombers killed at least 10 people and wounded dozens in two attacks in Israel on Tuesday, medical workers and police said.

Four people were killed and dozens wounded in a blast in a Jerusalem cafe. The explosion tore through the Hillel cafe in Jewish west Jerusalem just hours after another suicide bomber killed six people at a bus stop near an army camp outside Tel Aviv.

The militant Islamic group Hamas claimed responsibility for the two bombings in a statement to Al Jazeera television. The blasts followed a waves of Israeli strikes against Hamas leaders and field commanders.

"A suicide bomber entered the cafe and detonated his explosives," Jerusalem police chief Mickey Levy said. "Two guards were stationed at the cafe, one at the entrance and one inside."

"Apparently the guard at the entrance saw him and tried to stop him from going in. But he got inside and there was a powerful explosion," Levy said.

A ******* correspondent saw the bodies of four people on the bloodstained pavement. Medics confirmed the death toll.

"It was a fiery explosion, a great boom. I couldn't hear for a while and I saw people fleeing in all directions," Gideon Cohen, 19, who was working in a nearby restaurant.

"I saw several bodies on the ground. There was panic. It was crazy. The tables were overturned. There was glass everywhere."

The violence has all but shattered a U.S.-backed peace plan aimed at ending three years of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed.

Hours before the bus stop bombing, Israeli troops killed two senior Hamas militants in a shootout in the West Bank city of Hebron.

"Innocent Israelis were targeted for a second time in one evening by Palestinian terrorists," said David Baker, an official in Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office.

"The Palestinian Authority is doing absolutely nothing to dismantle its terrorist infrastructure," he said. "This inaction is a direct cause of the terror activity against Israel."

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Zrifin: 8 dead, 3 fataly wounded.
Jerusalem: 7 dead, 6 fataly wounded.

:(

[ArmoredDov_D9]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/i/1063144376.2684502099.jpg


An Israeli who was injured in an explosion is taken into hospital in Jerusalem September 10, 2003. A Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least four people and wounded dozens in a blast in a Jerusalem cafe on Tuesday, medics and police said. The explosion tore through the Hillel cafe in Jewish west Jerusalem just hours after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed six people at a bus stop near an army camp outside Tel Aviv. *******/Sharon Perry/Flash90 (ISRAEL OUT)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030909/capt.1063144047.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl133.jpg


A wounded Israeli youth is wheeled by paramedics to an ambulance away from the scene of a suicide bombing at a Jerusalem cafe, late Tuesday Sept. 9, 2003. A suicide bomber blew up outside the cafe in Jerusalem Tuesday night, killing at least six people and wounding about 40 others, witnesses and rescue workers said. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

[Kitsune]

There are bloody times ahead for the Middle East...with the peace process going down the gutters...

It is so senseless. The Palestinians will not win against Israel, neither by killing soldiers or civilians. And the same the other way round: Kill Hamas members or even leaders and they will regrow sooner or later.
Now they will kill each other until both sides realize that: IT IS SO SENSELESS !!!

I'm sure of it: eventually there will be an Palestinian state living in peace with Israel. But when? And how many people have to die until then?



:(

[hendrix33]

I agree with most of what you've said. It's been a hard day :|
One exception though:



And the same the other way round: Kill Hamas members or even leaders and they will regrow sooner or later.


Well... not stopping a suicide bomber or his/hers sender is something Israel cannot afford. Not eliminatting a terrorist means another bus exploding. No, can't do that.

We target terrorists: time bombs and their senders. They target little children on the bus. That's the difference.

Killing is terrible. I've burried more friends than I can count on one hand in my three years of service. Killing must be stopped, and the only way to do it, to achieve this goal every Israeli seeks, is by eliminating those who strap explosive belts on their waists, and the ones who send them to explode in crowded civilian places. Otherwise the killing will never stop.

[He219]

Killing must be stopped, and the only way to do it, to achieve this goal every Israeli seeks, is by eliminating those who strap explosive belts on their waists, and the ones who send them to explode in crowded civilian places. Otherwise the killing will never stop.

That is not the solution. The terrorist threat is like an Echinoderm. You can sever it's body into many pieces, but you will see each piece grow into an exact clone of the original and each will ultimately compound the problem.

The solution is to define the source and motivation for the hostility and to act constructively for an impartial resolution to the underlying impasse.

It may seem scientific or even idealistic to some, but to overestimate one's own military capabilities with the resolve and determination of others to counter it will shurely propagate further unnecessary loss of life on either side.

I sympathize for you and the friends you have lost. Remember that you also have a Palestinian counterpart who has seen great tragedy. The US will always be a supporter of Israel's right to exist and also for those striving for their own self-determination in an equitable manner.

[hendrix33]

The solution is to define the source and motivation for the hostility and to act constructively for an impartial resolution to the underlying impasse.


How do you suggest to transform that into acts?

[He219]

Break the cycle. There is less security in Israel today than there was before Sharon. Arafat and Sharon both have to go. Period.

You may not agree politically, but you must scientifically. Arafat is seen as the sole obsitacle to peace in Israel as Sharon is the equivalent to the Palestinians.

This is the hard part. Do some serious soul-searching and understand that a life is a life regardless if it is an Arab or a Jew. They carry equal weight and purpose. The principles of equality and for self-determination must be recognized as is Israel's right to exist. The same goes for the future Palestinian State.

Completely withdraw from the occupied territories and remove all roadblocks, checkpoints and barriers. Settlements in the occupied territories must be dismantled and the pre-67 borders must be applied to the Israeli State with modifications as in the Golan Heights and other critical 'defensive' positions. Restitiution must be paid for lands cleared of Olive Groves and other 'ancient' economic sources of livelyhood destroyed for Israeli security perimeters in the occupied territories.

Invest in the success of the Palestinian state and develop an economic symbiosis that builds on trade and equitable Palestinian labor. Develop joint defense and security cooperatives for critical protection of the overall borders. Israeli security services must be able to patrol and monitor the border around the joint Israeli/Palestinian states as well as in it's airspaces.

Defend yourself from the terrorist threat in the interm with complete support of the international community by not placing innocent civilians in the target sphere of those hunted. Express regret for those casualties and act to prevent innocent loss of life on your own volition and pay proper restitution if they occur. Do not target randomly and employ better live fire dicipline.

Stipulation for Palestinian compliance to their respective security responsibilities is self-evident and should be tied with each step of the process. The Israeli State and Palestinian Authorities will jointly combat terrorist elements and replace Hamas with their own joint social services along with humanitarian, reconstruction and development ventures.

And alas, the most contentious. This may or may not happen but regardless, I shall address it. Israel must recognize that Palestinians forced to flee from the fighting in it's inceptions have a right to return. This will alter the demographics of the Israeli State. Ultimately it will strenghthen the combined future Secular State as this is the only form and chance for true equality and lasting peace.


Chances are that many find an Arab/Israeli equality as reprehensible and will dismiss my suggestions as a misguided and altruistic attempt at a solution. Simultaneously it is also a recipe to remedy an occuring injustice which is at the root of global terrorism and anti-americanism.

You can either break the cycle or continue to kill each other indefinately. The choice is yours.

-Shalom-

[Spine]

Very well said, and much more articulate than I can manage when I think about this stuff.

I have always paid some attention to the situation there (I'm only 30 though), and I feel that things have gone to hell since Sharon started stirring this up to suit his political ambitions. There was relative calm there for a solid chunk of time.

[citizen-k]

Very well said, and much more articulate than I can manage when I think about this stuff.

I have always paid some attention to the situation there (I'm only 30 though), and I feel that things have gone to hell since Sharon started stirring this up to suit his political ambitions. There was relative calm there for a solid chunk of time.

Bad memory? I guess you didn't have TV/Radio back in 1996 when all mighty Peres was the PM - Palestinians will turn to terror every time peace is too close.

Blaming today's situation on Sharon is just like blaming Bush for 9/11...

The one and only solution is the Palestinian state established by the British - Jordan!

[hendrix33]

Break the cycle. There is less security in Israel today than there was before Sharon. Arafat and Sharon both have to go. Period.

You may not agree politically, but you must scientifically. Arafat is seen as the sole obsitacle to peace in Israel as Sharon is the equivalent to the Palestinians.

This is the hard part. Do some serious soul-searching and understand that a life is a life regardless if it is an Arab or a Jew. They carry equal weight and purpose. The principles of equality and for self-determination must be recognized as is Israel's right to exist. The same goes for the future Palestinian State.

Completely withdraw from the occupied territories and remove all roadblocks, checkpoints and barriers. Settlements in the occupied territories must be dismantled and the pre-67 borders must be applied to the Israeli State with modifications as in the Golan Heights and other critical 'defensive' positions. Restitiution must be paid for lands cleared of Olive Groves and other 'ancient' economic sources of livelyhood destroyed for Israeli security perimeters in the occupied territories.

Invest in the success of the Palestinian state and develop an economic symbiosis that builds on trade and equitable Palestinian labor. Develop joint defense and security cooperatives for critical protection of the overall borders. Israeli security services must be able to patrol and monitor the border around the joint Israeli/Palestinian states as well as in it's airspaces.

Defend yourself from the terrorist threat in the interm with complete support of the international community by not placing innocent civilians in the target sphere of those hunted. Express regret for those casualties and act to prevent innocent loss of life on your own volition and pay proper restitution if they occur. Do not target randomly and employ better live fire dicipline.

Stipulation for Palestinian compliance to their respective security responsibilities is self-evident and should be tied with each step of the process. The Israeli State and Palestinian Authorities will jointly combat terrorist elements and replace Hamas with their own joint social services along with humanitarian, reconstruction and development ventures.

And alas, the most contentious. This may or may not happen but regardless, I shall address it. Israel must recognize that Palestinians forced to flee from the fighting in it's inceptions have a right to return. This will alter the demographics of the Israeli State. Ultimately it will strenghthen the combined future Secular State as this is the only form and chance for true equality and lasting peace.


Chances are that many find an Arab/Israeli equality as reprehensible and will dismiss my suggestions as a misguided and altruistic attempt at a solution. Simultaneously it is also a recipe to remedy an occuring injustice which is at the root of global terrorism and anti-americanism.

You can either break the cycle or continue to kill each other indefinately. The choice is yours.

-Shalom-

Well said.

I honestly wish (most of) it come true.

Unfortunally, it can't be a one-side withdrawal. Who will stop terror? We CAN'T stop terror at our borders. Our cities are less than 15 minutes drive to the palestinian one (and I'm referring to settlements. Kfar-Saba, for instance).

It can't happen without palestinian cooperation, and no such a thing will ever happen while afarat can be there to stop it. Simple as that. There was terror WAY before Sharon.

[citizen-k]

Well said.

I honestly wish (most of) it come true.

Unfortunally, it can't be a one-side withdrawal. Who will stop terror? We CAN'T stop terror at our borders. Our cities are less than 15 minutes drive to the palestinian one (and I'm referring to settlements. Kfar-Saba, for instance).

It can't happen without palestinian cooperation, and no such a thing will ever happen while afarat can be there to stop it. Simple as that. There was terror WAY before Sharon.
Kfar-Saba is NOT a settlement at all...

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Kfar Saba is a city.

Settlement is a general name for city, town, village and such.

But it usually used as translation to ITNAHALUT, a settlement in the disputed territories.

[hendrix33]

Kfar-Saba is NOT a settlement at all...


I know my geography. What I meant to say is Kfar-Saba is NOT a settlement.

[He219]

ArmoredDov_D9: I moved your quote from the picture section.


Well, I don't want to hurt innocent civilians - but how many Palestinians are like that?

Those who danced and celebrated in Gaza are no "innocent". We should drop heavy bomb on Hamas houses and let no terrorist escape alive.


If you believe that no Palestinians are innocent because they loath of the effects of Israeli policy, then the same argument must be made about Israelis. This would validate terrorism itself.

Why do you believe that they would take pleasure at the voulnerability of the Israeli populus? Why would they feel that way? That is the question, and not about how much of the occupied lands you can bulldoze for the kind of Peace you want.

The killing of civilians on either side is wrong!

:roll:

[Spine]

A biased Israeli viewpoint is pointless to argue against, so this is my last post. I think I have a grasp of what's going on, and I won't take the opinion of either of the parties involved as the 'truth'.

To those who say that outside forces can't be used to mediate, observe and enforce peace - don't be so sure. Israel has no guarantees any more than a country in Africa that changes it's name every 20 years because of a coup. You are a small part of the population of the planet, and yet a major source of it's grief (not the only one of course), don't expect that to be tolerated much longer.

The amount of violence, and how little either side gains from it, is not something that we are unable to see.

If the international community got together and decided that you mutton heads over there need to stop killing each other, we could MAKE you. Your military forces are tough, but not that tough. This probably won't happen any time soon, but... Just today a Russian foreign minister is talking about how an international force may be needed to stop the violence.

Maybe you should answer the question in the other forum about why the IDF was shooting at UN soldiers in Lebannon.

[citizen-k]

A biased Israeli viewpoint is pointless to argue against, so this is my last post. I think I have a grasp of what's going on, and I won't take the opinion of either of the parties involved as the 'truth'.

To those who say that outside forces can't be used to mediate, observe and enforce peace - don't be so sure. Israel has no guarantees any more than a country in Africa that changes it's name every 20 years because of a coup. You are a small part of the population of the planet, and yet a major source of it's grief (not the only one of course), don't expect that to be tolerated much longer.

The amount of violence, and how little either side gains from it, is not something that we are unable to see.

If the international community got together and decided that you mutton heads over there need to stop killing each other, we could MAKE you. Your military forces are tough, but not that tough. This probably won't happen any time soon, but... Just today a Russian foreign minister is talking about how an international force may be needed to stop the violence.

Maybe you should answer the question in the other forum about why the IDF was shooting at UN soldiers in Lebannon.

LOL
Who? the russians who murdered (and still murder) thousands in Chechnia, the Belguines or Franch who killed houndred of thousands in Africa? The Americans who killed all the Indians? The British who fought for their "homeland" in Argentina?

I guess Israel has a special place in your heart because Jews have a special place in your heart.

As for the UN - When/Where? Can you ask around why did they help an iranian terror organization to kiddnep 3 soldiors or why did they protect them while they were launching rockets at Israeli cities?

There is a say in hebrew, made by the 1st PM "UM SHMUM" (UN in hebrew is UM and shmum sounds like "nothing")

[hendrix33]

A biased Israeli viewpoint is pointless to argue against, so this is my last post. I think I have a grasp of what's going on, and I won't take the opinion of either of the parties involved as the 'truth'.

To those who say that outside forces can't be used to mediate, observe and enforce peace - don't be so sure. Israel has no guarantees any more than a country in Africa that changes it's name every 20 years because of a coup. You are a small part of the population of the planet, and yet a major source of it's grief (not the only one of course), don't expect that to be tolerated much longer.

The amount of violence, and how little either side gains from it, is not something that we are unable to see.

If the international community got together and decided that you mutton heads over there need to stop killing each other, we could MAKE you. Your military forces are tough, but not that tough. This probably won't happen any time soon, but... Just today a Russian foreign minister is talking about how an international force may be needed to stop the violence.

Maybe you should answer the question in the other forum about why the IDF was shooting at UN soldiers in Lebannon.

Well my friend, first of all, I am less radical than my fellow Israelis here are. I think Israel should change some of it's behaviour, but a very small part of it.

You sit there, wherever you are, feeling safe and solid, the A/C is humming, you listen to music.

Do you know how it feels to have your heart flip everytime they release victims names in TV? Have you ever had someone you've know die like this? Have you ever had a DOZEN?

Did you ever have to see a mother mourning for her 15 years old girl, over an open grave? Do you know what's death?

When the US had taken a terror blow, they took the foremost awe of their military and changed an entire regime in afghanistan with all the blaze and glory.

So sit there, in your airondition, while you think you know sh*t about what's happening. Feel safe - you should. I hope you'll never have to participate in the death-toll we in Israel call a day-to-day life.


You are a small part of the population of the planet, and yet a major source of it's grief

This, by the way, seems in the same tone some 40's leader used to use. Are you proposing to finish what he started? Why don't you put all the cards on the table?

May only peace and safety follow you wherever you will go.

[Spine]

So it's not my last post, a couple more issues to address.

1. Spare me the 'where you sit in safety' crap.

Yes, I'm safe here, but my grandparents weren't zionists, so I have them to thank I guess. I know death, but I also understand that your country is VERY new, in a part of the world where jews aren't very popular right now. If I moved to a war zone, or a small dusty country surrounded by enemies, I'd expect there to be some dying. People mostly CHOSE to move there in the past 55 years, maybe they should have read the brochure.

2. When I said that 'you people are a small part of the population of the planet' I meant everyone in Israel, arab and jew alike. I'm not a neo-nazi.

3. As for saying jews have a special place in my heart, well I have jewish friends, but none of them are zionists. People who think they have a 'god given right' to Israel are insane IMHO, and they agree. :hug:

If there were palestinians in this forum, I could argue what their side is doing wrong also, but since only Israeli cheerleaders are discussing these issues, I'm talking to you.

Maybe I'm naive to think that an international force could help, but really, every single arab and jew in Israel could die in the next 20 years, and it won't affect my life that much. It's your problem to solve, or to keep screwing up like you have been.

Millions have died in Africa over the past 20 years without much foreign intervention, and I'm still sitting here and enjoying my life, so I guess we should just leave you guys to do your thing too. As long as we have justice where I live, people won't be able to hide from the truth.

My advice is to continue the way you are, it really seems to be working great for both sides! I'm sure any day now you will have killed the very LAST terrorist, and arabs and jews will be dancing in the streets and having a big party. :roll:

Back to your Israeli cheerleading, after all, you don't have any bias right?

I'm going to read up on the jewish terrorists who blew up the King David hotel and some trains to help found your country. They were 'freedom fighters' right guys?

[citizen-k]

So it's not my last post, a couple more issues to address.


3. As for saying jews have a special place in my heart, well I have jewish friends, but none of them are zionists. People who think they have a 'god given right' to Israel are insane IMHO, and they agree.

God given? actually it's a UN given right...

It was given after the world decided we deserve to have a state of our own, just like Palestinians have - it's called Jordan.

[Spine]

So why not make them all move to Jordan then so that you can have a pure jewish religious state ruled by the torah like the extreme right and settlers want?

Oh ya, that's called ethnic cleansing.

I don't know if you deserve a state of your own or not, but the zionists thought that part of the world was yours before the UN even existed.

Meanwhile that 's the only thing from the UN you guys recognize, you are in flagrant violation of MANY UN resolutions over the years since statehood.

[He219]

God given? actually it's a UN given right...

It was given after the world decided we deserve to have a state of our own, just like Palestinians have - it's called Jordan.

Actually, a vote on 'Partition' (first proposed by the British in 1937) occurred in the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947 -- one of the critical dates of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Thirty-three states said yes, including the United States and the Soviet Union; 13 no, mostly Arab and Muslim states; 10 abstained, among them Britain.

Then on May 14th, 1948, Ben-Gurion, on the basis of the U.N.'s support for partition, announced the establishment of the independent state of Israel, the day after Britain formally ended its rule.

In response, the Arab states surrounding Israel - Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq - attacked.

[martinexsquaddie]

Just come back from a talk given by the Deputy Ambassader from Israel and an ex member of the Knesset an Arab israeli who's now big in there Trades Union organisation.
The offical Israeli goverment line is the two states approach Unfortunatly ararfat is unable or unwilling to stop the bombing although some areas where the terrorist operate are occupied by the israli military so the PA can hardly be held responsible for those areas as there police can not move freely in those areas.
Hamas don't care they just want to kill jews any peace process is a defeat for them as suddenly palenstians can see a future if you have hope your not going to be a maytr.
Every terrorist the IDF kill another will take there place for every suicide bombing the IDf will hit back. The Pals cannot win militarly. The IDF could win but can't Nobody in power in the IDf seriously contemplates massive ethnic cleansing. that would be the final war in the middle east

[ArmoredDov_D9]

ArmoredDov_D9: I moved your quote from the picture section.


Well, I don't want to hurt innocent civilians - but how many Palestinians are like that?

Those who danced and celebrated in Gaza are no "innocent". We should drop heavy bomb on Hamas houses and let no terrorist escape alive.


If you believe that no Palestinians are innocent because they loath of the effects of Israeli policy, then the same argument must be made about Israelis. This would validate terrorism itself.

Why do you believe that they would take pleasure at the voulnerability of the Israeli populus? Why would they feel that way? That is the question, and not about how much of the occupied lands you can bulldoze for the kind of Peace you want.

The killing of civilians on either side is wrong!

:roll:

Israel will never seek to kill civilians of purpose but if the choice will be a 1 ton bomb to kill a terrorist with a lot damage and 100% success or a 0.25 ton bomb to kill a terrorist with 50% success, then I'll choose the first option.

You don't Palestiniana. From childhood they are educated to hate Jews and they celebrate every's Jew's death. God damn it, they even celebrate 9-11 !!!

http://www.legoz.co.il/newsimages/sbarro.jpg
This is the gate of the "suicide bombing museum" in Nablus which glorifies terror attacks against Israel.

http://www.legoz.co.il/newsimages/babyterror1.jpg
http://www.legoz.co.il/newsimages/babyterror.jpg
Hatred from the cradle...

Warning! Hard content!

http://www.legoz.co.il/newsimages/execution1.jpg
Palestinian children take part at a manslaughter...

Did I answered your question why I believe they get plessure from murder of innocent civilians?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

H219 , Spine, and others, may I remind you also the Balfur Declaration which was given to Haim Weizmann on November 2nd 1917? The declararion promised the Jews "National home in the land of Israel" and is part of our leggal right on the holy land.

We are willing to share and give Palestinians most of the disputed territories but we will not tolerate their terror against us.

[hendrix33]

God given? actually it's a UN given right...

It was given after the world decided we deserve to have a state of our own, just like Palestinians have - it's called Jordan.

Actually, a vote on 'Partition' (first proposed by the British in 1937) occurred in the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947 -- one of the critical dates of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Thirty-three states said yes, including the United States and the Soviet Union; 13 no, mostly Arab and Muslim states; 10 abstained, among them Britain.


Well, my respectable Israeli fellow here will agree, that transferring palestinians to Jordan is not a concensus in Israel. More over, this act is only being suggested by a small right-wing fraction, and therefore does not represent the Israeli government position in any way.

I respectfully disagree with this proposed act, but as a democratic citizen I support the freedom of speech. Just to make sure that it's straight no one thinks 'Israel wants to transfer palestinian population', because it's not true.


And to the point: Israel wants a palestinian state. Both current and former PM have said that out loud. Israel wants to create a dialouge with any palestinian leadership that can stop terror, or at least try. Perhaps Abu Mazen tried to'stop terror - we'll never know, because arafat failled him intentionally, only to promote the current PM, Abu Alla, to be his marionette.

One basic fact has not been considerred by anyone here: Hamas is different than IRA, or every other terrorist organization ever to have been encountered. Hamas does NOT act terror as a tool to promote a palestinian sovergin state. Hamas does not bomb busses in order to cause Israel to withdraw from the occupied territorries. Hamas' DECLARED and only goal is the absolute elimination of the state of Israel. That sort of terror organization is unprecedented. You can't talk this kind of terror in to a cease-fire. You can't ever surrender. You can only cease to exist.

There can't be any dialouge, because even if the palestinians get all they ever dreamed about, Hamas would continue to struggle until the last Israeli is dead. That's a fact. You can go there with a white flag and still get yourself shot.

The basic obstacle for peace is that NO ONE in the PA has the guts or the will to fight Hamas. That's what's keeping the palestinian state from forming. Too bad for both sides, don't you think?

[Spine]

Meh.

Best of luck to you.

I'm done.

[He219]

ArmoredDov_D9 wrote:

Israel will never seek to kill civilians of purpose but if the choice will be a 1 ton bomb to kill a terrorist with a lot damage and 100% success or a 0.25 ton bomb to kill a terrorist with 50% success, then I'll choose the first option.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030827/thumb.1061993204.israel_palestinians_xjd102.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030827/thumb.1061993223.mideast_israel_palestinians_xjd101.jpg
Botched Gunship attack in Gaza kills 65 year old Water-pipe Vendor


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030906/thumb.1062868672.topix_mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz112.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030906/t/1062858212.3020152917.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030906/t/1062860145.2684584018.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030906/t/1062863135.2885836891.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030907/amdf355565.jpg
Failed strike on Yassin using 550 lb bomb.


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/t/1063111810.3959922786.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/t/1063105090.4093673562.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030909/thumb.1063129905.mideast_israel_palestinians_reb112.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030909/thumb.sge.dha33.090903173946.photo00.default-267x378.jpg
Twelve-year-old Thaher Siyouri killed as he watched a shootout between Israeli soldiers and militants holed up in an apartment building. Who knows how many residents were displaced with the demolition of the remains.



http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030910/t/1063197251.2281922653.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030910/thumb.sge.doo48.100903123328.photo00.default-384x257.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030910/t/1063190783.2617426005.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030910/t/1063196154.2281873497.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030910/thumb.1063194915.mideast_israel_palestinians_agaz105.jpg
Failed strike on Zahar using a GBU or WHATEVER BIG bomb :)


The effects:



http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030905/thumb.1062775954.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl104.jpg

Holding his daughter Allah, Palestinian resident Mohammed Abdullah weeps as he looks at the debris of the apartment building he lived in, after it was destroyed by the Israeli army in the West Bank city of Nablus, Friday Sept. 5, 2003. The building was blown up more than six hours after a gun battle between the army and militants inside the building broke up after an Israeli soldier was killed in the building during a search operation. The army ordered about 100 residents to evacuate the construction, which housed 15 apartments, before destroying it. (AP Photo/Nasser Ishtayeh)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030824/t/1061750482.2818605116.jpg

A Palestinian girl of the Alkeilany family cries as Israeli soldiers blow up the building were their family house is located after troops uncovered a bomb lab in the second floor in the Old City of the West Bank town of Nablus August 24, 2003. Soldiers found an 80-kilogram (176 pound) bomb, fertilizers, two rockets, and other bomb-making materials, the army and Palestinian witnesses said. The family was told to leave their apartment, located on the first floor, and the whole building was demolished. *******/Nasser Ishtayeh/Pool
Some call it Collateral Punnishment.


I applaud the successful surgical stikes on militant Hamas and other 'terrorist' leaders. For all the botched missions and colateral civilian damage, a new generation of vengeful individuals is born.

The truth is, you really don't care about them as you care only for yourself and only the people you love. Armored Dov D9 Bulldozer for Peace?? Only your kind of peace. Death to any who defy your will.

They celebrate 9-11 because we support Israel without any reservations. They celebrate 9-11 because the equipment the Israelis use is predominantly of US origin. The Global War on Terror is directly rooted in events happening in the Occupied Territories.

The very sad part is that you do not understand the reprecussions of your own actions.

To say that you may be willing to share the occupied territories means that you are wantonly imposing your beliefs on what is not yours.

As for the Ballford Declaration:

The Balfour Declaration "was the product of British strategic thinking," says NPR's Mike Shuster -- "and (of) the lobbying of modern Zionism's second great personality, Chaim Weizmann." Shuster reports in the second of Morning Edition's seven-part series on the history of the Middle East conflict.

Weizmann, a Russian Jew, settled in Great Britain before World War I, and became the local representative of the World Zionist Organization, which had set a Jewish homeland in Palestine as its goal in 1897. He managed to make his way into the offices of Great Britain's highest officials, including David Lloyd George, who became prime minister in 1916.

The British quickly warmed to the strategic value of a Zionist enterprise in Palestine, says Howard Sachar, the author of A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time. "People like Lloyd George, people like Arthur James Balfour -- the British foreign secretary -- in the latter phase of the war began to see a number of very important advantages to cultivating a Jewish presence in Palestine, with the unspoken understanding that this Jewish presence would be under a British protectorate," Sachar says.

On Nov. 2, 1917, Britain issued what came to be known as the Balfour Declaration. The letter from Balfour declared the government in favor of establishing "a national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.

The Zionists were euphoric, Shuster reports. They understood the words "national home" to mean Jewish state.

Rashid Khalidi, a Palestinian-American historian at the University of Chicago, calls the declaration a monumental injustice: "The Balfour Declaration involved a promise by an imperial power to establish a national home for a minority in a country that had a population which was not recognized in that declaration... The existing non-Jewish populations were the 92 percent majority of the country. Their national and political rights were ignored in a declaration which promised national and political rights to the Jewish people."

Britain gained control of Palestine at the end of World War I. And in 1922, the League of Nations gave a mandate to Britain to rule Palestine, envisioning that the territory would eventually be granted independence.

Britain attempted to bridge the political interests of both the Zionist settlers and the indigenous Palestinian Arabs. But violence broke out between the two communities almost from the start. It culminated in the Arab revolt of 1936, which left hundreds of Arabs and Jews dead. Britain proposed partitioning Palestine, an idea the Palestinians rejected and for which the Zionists had little enthusiasm. When World War II broke out, Great Britain was ready to leave Palestine.
That's form NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history2.html)


hendrix33,

Your arguments are thoughtful and insightful unlike your militant colleagues. I agree that HAMAS is unlike any other terrorist organization. Hamas is leading a model that Palestinians are increasingly finding agreeable; resistance without compromise and hate not unlike that I read in some of the prior posts encouraging the deportation or eradication of a given populus.


There can't be any dialouge, because even if the palestinians get all they ever dreamed about, Hamas would continue to struggle until the last Israeli is dead. That's a fact. You can go there with a white flag and still get yourself shot.


Therefore no consideration is given from the outset for interdependence as radical organizations, unlike militant Israelis factions, continue to struggle to impose their beliefs on the other.

In a democratic state there will always be an opposition that does not agree with the mainstream. There also are militant extremists that have agendas here in the US, but we don't deny equal rights because of that. The Hamas organization is only gaining momentum with transpiring events. If you do not agree with this(last) then you are in big trouble. The polarization of the Middle Eastern populus is rapidly growing and eventually nothing will be able to stop the ethnic struggles by parties determined to impose their will on the other. The sad part is that the two extremes bear all to much similarity in behavior. After all, you are both children of Abraham, brothers through Ishmael and Isaac. Act like it.

I agree with your assesment that no one in the occupied territories has the will to stand up to Hamas because they now have popular support. They are percieved to have won a struggle against Israeli Occupation in Southern Lebanon and find that resisting an occupation is more honorable than to acquiesce to a foreign master. The Palestinian Authority risks alienating the remainder of the populus by consenting to Israeli 'concessions' that would - get this - 'ligitimize illegal gains made by Israel' in the creation of the Israeli state and through the construction of settlements for purposes of expansion in the occupied territories.

Now I don't think that you would read my statements as 'inflammatory' unlike your colleagues you would brand my statements as 'defamation'. Look through the smoke, see the root of the hate and break the cycle of violence.

Shalom!
p-)

[hendrix33]

Well, first, I'm happy this discussion is kept with a friendly tone. You gave quite an articulate and probably balanced review on most issues.

However, the problem with outsiders is failling to realize few basic facts.


Look through the smoke, see the root of the hate and break the cycle of violence.


I wish! Not one in Israel wishes otherwise. Translating these declerations to reality is easier said than done. I really wish we could.

Now let me quote myself:


The basic obstacle for peace is that NO ONE in the PA has the guts or the will to fight Hamas. That's what's keeping the palestinian state from forming.

We agreed that no peace can take place while Hammas is live and kicking. No one in the PA can or wishes to do anything about Hammas. Where does this leads us to?
Should we fold back?

I don't know how much the geographical situation is clear from there. A suicide bomber can walk out of a palestinian town by foot, and be in a civil population centre within the hour. Less by car. And I'm talking about cities, not settlements. HENCE, stopping terror from outside of the occupied territorries is impossible. Plainly so. If the PA won't stop them from their side - who can?

It is obvious that the conflict could only end with the construction of Palestine, and Israel openly supports this act, but how can that be accomplished without gurantees to the security of Israeli citizens?
Terror cannot be stopped from outside the occupied territorries. Period.

And one last thing.


Shalom!


I've already babbled about this in another thread. Shalom has a lot of meanings in hebrew. It is used as Hello (when meeting someone, on the phone...), as Goodbye (may peace be with you), and of course, the basic meaning of Shalom is PEACE.
Peace is in the cultural roots of the jewish society, and the world Shalom alone, used at least forty times a day by any hebrew speaker, is a good examplt of that.

So Shalom.

[He219]

:D Go Shalom! Ani mevina otakh, letsa-ari, ani medaberet rak ketsat ivrit.

But there can be a Peace even with leftovers of Hamas alive and kicking. The idea is to relegate them as a 'fringe' faction instead of drawing attention to them and their mission. There is always some form of disent, everywhere. Work for Peace with those who seek it. In cases it will require bearing unpleasantries, but it will be for the good of the whole. In a free world there never is a guarantee for security, there never was such a thing. We can only strive to make the world a better place.

Na-im me-od lehakir otkha.

layla tov

p-)

[hendrix33]

Well, nice to meet you too. Somehow I've thought I was speaking with a man :oops: ;)


Well, the bottom of the problem probably lies here:

In cases it will require bearing unpleasantries, but it will be for the good of the whole.

http://wwwi.*******.com/images/2003-09-10T153224Z_01_TLV01D_RTRIDSP_2_MIDEAST.jpg

Someone who'd been at a situation like this, cannot call it 'unpleasantary'. Impossible. No can do. Unfortunately, I'm speaking from experience. I wish I wasn't. Hell, I wish I've been in less than five of these funerals, but I've been to more than I can count on both hands.

There can't be any 'bearing unpleasantries' when what you see in the picture takes place. It just can't. To be fair, innocent funerals such as these take place on both sides.

So what's the difference? Intention!

When a palestinian boy is shot to death, it is an unfortunate collateral damage. No one wanted innocent getting hurt. Never!

When a Jewish boy is blown up, HE was the TARGET!
Shal`hevet Pass was two years old when a palestinian sniper shot her to death while in her crib. What sort of a person can do that? Can you imagine the effect of a 7.62mm round on an infant???

Intension is the difference. You won't see crowds dancing in Jerusalem after an innocent palestinian dies. We did see yesterday thousands roamming the streets of Gaza, being rallied by their preists, all full of joy on the 13 dead Israeli. Here's a difference.

Back to 'bearing unpleasantries'. You can't have those while terror is raging. See hezbollah: Israel withdrew from the territorries as required in the UN resolution. Did they stop fighting? They rolled their Rocket Launchers (MRLSs, infact) closer to the border, placing Haifa and even Hadera under the umbrella of thousands of rockets.

Only way to beat terror is by force.

[txajas]

I just hope that some day the extremist views of the Sharon/Arafat tandem will give way to the understanding that either you guys find out a way of pacific coexistance or face agressive anihilation.

You can come and make all the arguments you want for Israel, I still find it funny how the UN is used to justify Israel's actions sometimes... but when the UN's resolutions put a question on some of those actions... then the UN is mocked. And I also find it funny the Palestinian resort to barbaric acts of terrorism. I am afraid that as of now, no side can claim any shred of moral high ground. The Israelis use high tech guided bombs and whatever else, the end result is civilians die, whether it was your intent or not does not make a ****ing lick of difference, in the same light Palestinians resort to blow themselves to pieces trying to take out as many israelis as possible. That sort of cycle of violence takes you guys nowhere fast. But by all means, keep it up.

Also it gets really old when people try to associate critizism of Israel with anti-semitism. I know plenty of Jews who are not semites by a long shot. And it also gets very sickening how the Arab states use Palestinians to drive the attention of their populi away from the real problems they have at home. Most of those Arab states are the ones most interested in perpetuating the missery of the Palestinians, so they have the boogie man they need in Israel. Same in the US with terrorism, boogey men are always helpful to drive the attention elsewhere.

End of rant...

[txajas]

Intention makes a lick of difference, the kill ratio is like 4/5 to 1, OK? That whole intention horse manure is just another way of trying to wash your hands. Both parties are equally guilty, this is not a car accident where you did not meant to run over a person, this is uniformed soldiers shooting real bullets. The whole intention thing may be a quick way of saving face, a state that resorts to institutionalized murdering has no tright to come over with "intention".

"Only way to beat terror is by force."

That may be part of the problem. First off, "terror" is a concept OK? Is like this whole "war on terror" nonsense. What is this are we waging war against noums now? Terror as in terrorism can only be defeated at the ROOT, and no matter how hard you try to pull a weed you will never get the actual root out. You have to dig deeper than that, and that does not require force. But by all means keep on pulling the weed, it is only gonna come out stronger.

You go to a funeral, it makes you angry -and I am pretty sure I would be too- so you want retribution. Palestinians going to their funerals are not going to be equally or more angry? What do they want? Retribution too.. so keep on the cycle, more funerals, what now? More retribution....

[budanski]

Israeli Emergency Room Doctor, Daughter Killed in Jerusalem Bombing on Eve of Her Wedding

Associated Press (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA3MRIFFKD.html)

JERUSALEM (AP) - On the eve of his daughter's wedding, Dr. David Applebaum sat with the young woman late into the evening at a coffee house, offering fatherly advice on marriage before her big day.

Father and daughter were killed late Tuesday when a suicide bomber struck the cafe - one of two attacks that left 15 people dead.

The 51-year-old Applebaum, who as head of a Jerusalem hospital emergency room had directed treatment for numerous bombing victims, and his 20-year-old daughter were among seven people killed at the Cafe Hillel. The attack in the city's upscale German Colony neighborhood occurred barely five hours after another suicide bomber killed eight people in central Israel.

Applebaum had just flown back to Israel after giving a talk at a New York University terrorism symposium marking the second anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Hours after landing in Israel, the father of six met his daughter, Nava, to impart some last-minute advice before her wedding, which was to have taken place Wednesday evening.

As ambulances began delivering the wounded, the director of Jerusalem's Shaarei Tzedek Hospital, Yonatan Halevy, was wary because there was no sign of Applebaum - usually the first to report to the hospital after a bombing.

"It was clear to me from very early on that David Applebaum - when he didn't show up and I knew he was in Jerusalem and he hadn't called - that a terrible tragedy had occurred," Halevy said. "Confirmation of my suspicions came shortly."

Word that he was one of the victims came from a rescue worker who recognized him at the scene. The hospital staff had to cope with their own grief as they treated the wounded.

To understand their anguish, "it was enough yesterday to look at the sorrowful faces of the emergency room workers while they were treating the wounded streaming into the hospital from the attack," Halevy said.

For Nava's wedding, Applebaum had prepared a book with sayings from family members and himself, biblical passages and marital advice. Visiting the family before dawn Wednesday, Halevy leafed through the book Applebaum would never give his daughter.

"The fact that a man flies, three days before his daughter's wedding, to share this doctrine about preparing for a mass terror attack, which Jerusalem hospitals have unprecedented knowledge of, is an example of his combined outlook - complete dedication, to both work and the family," Halevy said.

Analysis you won't hear from the AP: "Today's suicide bombing in Jerusalem marks the 875th suicide bombing since Yasser Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize." (The figure is made up, but you get the point; no quagmire here.)

[hendrix33]

Your critisicm is very cynical. I suppose you're in a place safe enough to appreciate the humour of our sitaution. Great.
To the point:


That may be part of the problem. First off, "terror" is a concept OK? Is like this whole "war on terror" nonsense. What is this are we waging war against noums now? Terror as in terrorism can only be defeated at the ROOT, and no matter how hard you try to pull a weed you will never get the actual root out. You have to dig deeper than that, and that does not require force.


What you fail to realize is the root of terror cannot be defeated. It won't stop until the last Israeli is dead. Istead of repeating myself I'll quote what I said a few hours ago.


One basic fact has not been considerred by anyone here: Hamas is different than IRA, or every other terrorist organization ever to have been encountered. Hamas does NOT act terror as a tool to promote a palestinian sovergin state. Hamas does not bomb busses in order to cause Israel to withdraw from the occupied territorries. Hamas' DECLARED and only goal is the absolute elimination of the state of Israel. That sort of terror organization is unprecedented. You can't talk this kind of terror in to a cease-fire. You can't ever surrender. You can only cease to exist.

There can't be any dialouge, because even if the palestinians get all they ever dreamed about, Hamas would continue to struggle until the last Israeli is dead. That's a fact. You can go there with a white flag and still get yourself shot.

We can't give them everything they want, even if we wanted to - because they want nothing other than the destruction of Israel. It's the declared goal of Hammas. Check their websites.

[txajas]

That is part of your problem, see you make asinine assumptions about where I am from, OK. See I am in a place where we have had terror for more than 40 years, OK? I have seen bombs explode in my city (N. Spain) every few months. Deal? I have been evacuated on a bi-weekly basis from school because of bomb threats. Some of my friends daily routine consists on looking under their cars before going to work, to make sure there are no bombs under the chassis.

So please spare me "you are safe, blah blah blah" Without resorting to your victimism you have nothing. No one in that nick of the woods is innocent as of now, keep it up and kill each other.....

[hendrix33]

If that's the best arguement you have on a page-long response I've posted, I guess I'm right then.

The basques, if you took the comparison, didn't have a declared goal of elimination Spain. No other terror groop in the world had taken a similar position. Hammas is not what you think you know about terror. But keep your cynical attitue, and have a good day.

[txajas]

So far all I have read from a few Israelis in this forum when they encounter a comment which they do not like is simply: Shut up, you don't know anything, or your are anti-jew. For some reason you seem to think you are the keepers of the truth, and that only you know suffering.

You made the assumption I came from a comfy peaceful background, and proceeded with the whole victimization thing. I already told you that your assumption was wrong, hence your "page long" post was pretty much voided. Why would I have to answer exactly how you want. Jeez, seem some of you have a hard time processing different points of view, which is quite telling really. What is this need to be "right" all the time? You made the assumption, I tell you u were wrong, and somehow you claim that makes you right? I mean I have seen twisted arguments before but you come close to be one of the most convoluted ones.

I am entitled to whatever attitude I want, and the fact that you do not like it doesn't make it neither cynical nor wrong. BTW, there are plenty of extremist jewish settlers that would like nothing better than the extermination of the Palestinians. So what is your point really? There are extremists in both sides, somehow you pretend to imply that some extremists are better than others.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

H219, in all the example you brought - only at two events there were death of civilians.

In Yassin's case, becaused Israel used small bomb (550 lbs is aproxematly 0.25 ton) - NO ONE was killed.

In Hebron, it is still unclear if the teenager got killed, was involved at the shootout which take place. You forgot to tell that IDF ensured all civilians were EVACUATED from the building before they continued to fight the Hamas terrorist (with the " ") inside. The big buildong was partly a Hamas HQ which used as base of operations to Ahmed Bader, head of Hamas in Hebron and the masermind behind Jerusalem massacre. And indeed, after the IDF blown up the house (legal act even according to Geneva agreement since the house was "used for military purpose" by Hamas) - only dead terrorists were discovered inside. No civilians.


Some call it Collateral Punnishment.

I called it that what happens when terrorist using civilians as 'human shield' .


The truth is, you really don't care about them as you care only for yourself and only the people you love. Armored Dov D9 Bulldozer for Peace?? Only your kind of peace. Death to any who defy your will.

Yes. I don't care for them. After all what they've done to us, I cant pity them anymore. The reason that I think the IDF should keep high moral status and still try to minimize civilians casualties is because we never should go to the Palestinian low level. We will not commit a deliberate massacre of civilians as the Palestinian do because we havn't, and we won't, lost our human shape (TZELEM ENOSH).

And yes - death to every terrorists. Terrorists are the enemies of peace, terrorists are the enemies of mankind.


They celebrate 9-11 because we support Israel without any reservations. They celebrate 9-11 because the equipment the Israelis use is predominantly of US origin. The Global War on Terror is directly rooted in events happening in the Occupied Territories.

Reason me this. In 1991, Palestinian celebrated the occupation of Quwait by Saddam although Quwait was super generous to Palestinian refugees. Why's that?

And secondly, their hatred doesn't justifying party over mass murder.
They don't have the right to be so inhuman.

As for the Balfour Declaration. It doesn't matter why it was given (anti-semites will say it was a Zionnist conpiercy, the truth is that the British rewarded the Jewish Zionist chemist Haim Weizmann who saved their arse in WW1). IT WAS GIVEN. In the mandate resoulation, the declaration was mentioned and "national home" to the Jewish people was promised again. We have our legal right to live in Israel.

I hope I don't need to give you documents that prove our right to live without being blown up to pieces by Palestinian zealots.

We strive for peace, but a true peace. Laying our weapons while Palestinian slaughtering us is not peace. Hamas goals are clear: clean Israel out of Jews. We cannot agree to that, you must understand. Hamas in no better than Al-Qaeda. They are fundemantalist Islamic zealots who can't be reasoned with. They always try to ruin chances for peace and therefore they (Hamas) must be destroyed.

You see, for Israelis, every day on the calender is 9-11.

[He219]

Yes. I don't care for them. After all what they've done to us, I cant pity them anymore. The reason that I think the IDF should keep high moral status and still try to minimize civilians casualties is because we never should go to the Palestinian low level. We will not commit a deliberate massacre of civilians as the Palestinian do because we havn't, and we won't, lost our human shape (TZELEM ENOSH).

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030911/thumb.1063284115.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl102.jpg

Relatives of Ahmed Tahaynah, 15, killed by Israeli forces Wednesday, mourn over his body at the hospital of the northern West Bank town of Jenin prior to his funeral procession Thursday Sept. 11, 2003. Tahaynah from the nearby village of Al-Seelat was shot and killed by Israeli forces Wednesday near the security wall Israel had built to prevent infiltrators from the West Bank. Palestinians say he was going to his work in Israel. (AP Photo/Mohammad Ballas)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030911/thumb.1063283323.mideast_israel_palestinians__jrl103.jpg

Palestinians mourn as the body of Mahmoud Nasr Eisa, is being taken away from his family house during a funeral procession in the West Bank refugee camp of Balata, adjacent to the city of Nablus,Thursday Sept. 11, 2003. Eisa, 20, and Mohammed Asi, 18, were both shot and killed by Israeli forces during clashes in Balata late Wednesday .According to witnesses Israeli troops opened fire on Palestinian stone-throwers killing the two men. The Israeli army had no comment. (AP Photo/Nasser Ishtayeh)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030911/thumb.sge.dzr67.110903122328.photo00.default-384x272.jpg

Palestinian women carry their belongings from the houses demolished by Israeli bulldozers. Israeli troops destroyed 15 houses during a brief incursion into the Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip .(AFP/Hrvoje Polan)


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030821/t/1061476250.2751553613.jpg

Israeli soldiers watch an Israeli mechanical shovel demolishing Palestinian houses at the village of Nazlat Eisa near the West Bank city of Tulkarem in the area where the Israeli security fence is being built, August 21, 2003

It's sad that you don't even realize that you are reaping what you sow....



hendrix33, slikha. I must have used the wrong expression. I am not a chick!

[ArmoredDov_D9]

I think it is the opposite. They reap what they saw.

When the Palestinians conccealing and supporting terrorists who hide among civilians - they get hurt.

Most of those who get hurt were involved in the violence in some way.
The Palestinian are experts at staging photos of "misery" and every time a house of terrorist is being demolished they send kids to posture sad while photographers are taking picture.

Do you remember the mock funeral they staged after Jenin?

[Spine]

I've heard that anti-semitism is on the rise all over the world right now.

Historically it seems that jews haven't had a very easy time, I wonder when you will have peace, or will it be never? Seems like a cycle that's been going on for 2000 years at least, but what is at the root of it?