To the Israelis and those who have served in UN-forces.

[Ichhabe]

This is for the Israelis and others that have served in UN-missions. Specially if you have served in the UNIFIL-mission.

I was down in South Lebanon as a Combat Engineer in 1986 and 1987.
Sometimes we had our clashes with the IDF and SLA. On my first tour, 2 guys in my battalion got injured by IDF after they had shot at them with two grenades from a Merkava with flechette-ammo. A miracle that they survived and only 2 out of 10 getting hit.

Over the years many UN-soldiers have been killed by the IDF, normally from mistakes, but also intensionally.

My question is; How did the IDF look upon UN-soldiers in Lebanon? Did they consider them as the "enemy" or just as some annoying "bystanders".

The reason I ask is because I know that the Norwegian battalion stopped AND arrested a lot of infiltrators heading for the Israeli boarder or Israeli positions. And for that we were sometimes "rewarded" with shelling from the IDF.

Weird if you ask me...

[ArmoredDov_D9]

First, the IDF is no longer in Lebanon.

Secondly, you probably know about the abducation of the 3 soldiers by Hizbullah terrorist, supported by the UN peacekeeping force from India.
The Israelis see UN troops cooperating with the terrorists and therefore sees them as ENEMY.

Officialy, they are not considered ENEMY, but a neutral force. But unofficialy, Israeli are mad at the UN for its anti-Israeli bias and its protection and support to Hizbullah terrorists.

[Tom.G]

What the **** are you talking about? Anti-Israeli bias my ass. The UN might not like Israel and the IDF because they never listen to UN. Of all the country`s in the Middle East, Israel is the one who has broken the most UN resolutions. And they``ve killed so many Arabs over the years that, I think, the IDF should be disarmed and a UN force sent to bloc it off from the Arab country`s. As far as I am conserned, the IDF is one of the most criminal military forces in the world!

[Ichhabe]

Ehhh. It was not my intention to start a "Lets fistfight, right here, right now!!"-situation.

Please behave in a civil manner. I am specially after the Israeli soldiers point of view, and also the UN-soldiers. WITHOUT the usual treaths and bad language.

[Sirpad]

Desert Sloth - good thing it's the norwegian battalion is the one deployed in south lebanon, and not the canadian one. i don't want to think about the results of such deployment...

i could'nt care less about your opinion, because it comes out of a wrong place. back in april 2002, the IDF went into jenin refugee camp and lost 13 soldiers in battle - a death easily avoided if fighter planes and arty bombed the place down to rubble.
that's right - the same planes US AND CANADA deployed in afghanistan and were used massively. who are you, mister, to come preach about war crimes?! do you even remember the wedding ceremony bombed by your guys, with dozens of casualties?!

or should i remind again the incident of kidnapping 3 wounded israely soldiers under the very eyes of UN peacekeepers? where the hell were they, "keeping the peace"?
i don't remember UN secretary general outraged by this or by hizbullah's use of fake UN vehicles for the kidnapping. i do remember him bold-face lying to the kidnapped soldiers's families when they met.

so please - give us a break!

[citizen-k]

This is for the Israelis and others that have served in UN-missions. Specially if you have served in the UNIFIL-mission.

I was down in South Lebanon as a Combat Engineer in 1986 and 1987.
Sometimes we had our clashes with the IDF and SLA. On my first tour, 2 guys in my battalion got injured by IDF after they had shot at them with two grenades from a Merkava with flechette-ammo. A miracle that they survived and only 2 out of 10 getting hit.

Over the years many UN-soldiers have been killed by the IDF, normally from mistakes, but also intensionally.

My question is; How did the IDF look upon UN-soldiers in Lebanon? Did they consider them as the "enemy" or just as some annoying "bystanders".

The reason I ask is because I know that the Norwegian battalion stopped AND arrested a lot of infiltrators heading for the Israeli boarder or Israeli positions. And for that we were sometimes "rewarded" with shelling from the IDF.

Weird if you ask me...

First of all, please allow me to introduce my self: I served in the IDF North command during the 90’s and let’s say I know the UN pretty good.

The IDF IS NOT referring the UN as enemy. But we know for a fact that we can’t count on the UN to stop the enemy – i.e. if a UN soldier see a Hizbullah member attempting to cross the border/fire rockets etc we CAN’T be sure he will try to stop him. (but every time they saw an IDF patrol they alerted everyone)

During 1996 there was a big military operation in Lebanon which ended with 100 dead in a UN post after the IDF fired at it – I guess you wonder why?
Ok, trust me or not, it’s up to you – this is as close as you will ever get to the truth, simply because I WAS THERE.

The IDF declared every UN post as a “no fire zone” in order to prevent casualties among UN soldiers and civilians who will use their posts as shelters. (The post it self and a few hundred meters surrounding it)
During that day Hizbullah members used this “protection” to shell Israeli cities knowingly that the IDF won’t fire at them because they are too close the UN post.
They fired right outside the post while the UN soldiers DID NOTHING to stop them until there was no other option but to shell the terrorists. (hoping not to hit the post itself)
If the UN soldiers weren’t protecting the terrorists and they were driving them away from the posts fence none of this would have happen.

NO ONE ORDERED TO TARGET THE POST INTENTIALLY!!!

Before, during and after this operation the IDF kept an open channel with the UN to prevent such incidents.

As you know 3 soldiers were kidnapped under UN protection by Hizbullah AFTER Israel did as UN asked and left Lebanon…
Today the Hizbullah is firing AA fire into Israeli cities under the UN protection (again) (fire which already killed civilians)
So I guess you can understand why Israelis don’t LOVE the UN, but it was never considered as enemy…

[Tom.G]

Ehhh. It was not my intention to start a "Lets fistfight, right here, right now!!"-situation.

Please behave in a civil manner. I am specially after the Israeli soldiers point of view, and also the UN-soldiers. WITHOUT the usual treaths and bad language.

Sorry man, my bad.

[Tom.G]

Desert Sloth - good thing it's the norwegian battalion is the one deployed in south lebanon, and not the canadian one. i don't want to think about the results of such deployment...

i could'nt care less about your opinion, because it comes out of a wrong place. back in april 2002, the IDF went into jenin refugee camp and lost 13 soldiers in battle - a death easily avoided if fighter planes and arty bombed the place down to rubble.
that's right - the same planes US AND CANADA deployed in afghanistan and were used massively. who are you, mister, to come preach about war crimes?! do you even remember the wedding ceremony bombed by your guys, with dozens of casualties?!

or should i remind again the incident of kidnapping 3 wounded israely soldiers under the very eyes of UN peacekeepers? where the hell were they, "keeping the peace"?
i don't remember UN secretary general outraged by this or by hizbullah's use of fake UN vehicles for the kidnapping. i do remember him bold-face lying to the kidnapped soldiers's families when they met.

so please - give us a break!

No bud, you give me a break

Jenin Refugee camp: Israel lost 13 soldiers. How many Palistinians were killed? How many had homes destroyed? How many Israeli homes were bulldozed or blown up during the intifadas? Don't get me rong, I don't support terrorism, but Israel doesn't deal with the problem properly.

Peace keepers are not allowed to intervene unless they are fired upon. Examples: Rawanda and Shrbenitsa (Spelling?)

Don't even try to compare the Canadian military to the IDF. How many war crimes have the canadians comitted post WW2? Only one, when a young Sommali who had snuck into the camp was tortured to death.
That was one person. The IDF doesn't let the media come too close, so we don't know.

The UN Secretary general probably doesn't care about those Israeli soldiers, because thats three guys. In Israel, there are so many Palistinians living in refugee camps in very bad conditions. So those three soldiers aren't worth anything in a country with so much injustice.

[Trigger]

Hey Hood, I think we need an "Israeli/Palestinian Cage Match" forum :cantbeli:

[citizen-k]

Hey Hood, I think we need an "Israeli/Palestinian Cage Match" forum :cantbeli:

What we really need is 24 hours without the media in Gaza, and then this "Israeli/Palestinian Cage Match" forum won't be needed any more.

(Not mentioning it will save lives)

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Jenin Refugee camp: Israel lost 13 soldiers. How many Palistinians were killed? How many had homes destroyed? How many Israeli homes were bulldozed or blown up during the intifadas? Don't get me rong, I don't support terrorism, but Israel doesn't deal with the problem properly.

I can give you the numbers: 23 Israeli soldier were killed (13 in one ambush), 52-56 Palestinians were killed (the highest number of civilians killed which was claimed by anyone was 22), about 130 houses were bulldozes (most of them were wired), and every Human Rights report wrote it clear: there was no massacre in Jenin!


And again, the UN behaivor on the 3-kidnapped soldiers was disgraceful.
First, it helped Hizbullah doing the abduction.
Secondly, they cover out the evidence and lied to the families of the soldiers.
Thirdly, when it was revelead they got a tape documanting the kidnapped they refused to show it to Israel in order (listen carefully) to protect the kidnappers' identities!

This is something that Israel is rightfully unwilling to forgive (not that the UN ever aplogized or investigated this misconduct).

[Tom.G]

Jenin is just one situation. And in any case more Palistians were killed. But I guess that goes for any war where arabs fight on one side: They always take more casualties.

[Tom.G]

By the By, to talk here do you have to have been part of IDF or a soldier in a UN mission?

[FallenAngel]

Sloth-

The Palestinians often count "freedom fighters" as civilian casualties. The IDF has some of the most stringent rules-of-engagement on the planet. They include first ignoring being fired upon and only taking cover. Then come verbal warnings, warning shots and THEN will they fire a few rounds in response. However, when you have THIS sort of situation http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030910/capt.1063213718.mideast_israel_palestinians_abl112.jpg

With women and children surrounding armed terrorists, there's a great chance that civilians will get hit. Come to expect that from Hamas, Hizbullah, etc..

And, as has been said, the IDF could level the West Bank and Gaza without risking one Israeli. They don't. It's a war down there. The Israelis have tried MANY times for peace- but peace is a long and slow process, and every time some HAMAS terrorists can't wait and blows up a bus, disco, cafe, etc. and then the IDF goes to work. Many of the security checkpoints that the palestinians object to were only erected after suicide bombings as just another safety barrier for innocent Israelis.

[hendrix33]

The IDF doesn't let the media come too close, so we don't know.

Exactly. You don't know. Why are you believing palestinian accusations? In jennin they accussed Isreal in committing a genocide, in digging mass graves, killing 500 people. There is a famous movie taken from IDF UAV showing palestinians run with a strecher with a 'body'. The body was taken to a side alley, where the 'body' rose from the strecher, and walked to participate in the demonstration, while the strecher crew went to pick up another 'body'. That's just one example of the lies they spread. And you take their side. Suit Yourself.


So those three soldiers aren't worth anything in a country with so much injustice.

Well, that speaks of your human values more than I can. Have a good day.

[Tom.G]

Listen Jimmy, the Palistinians are living in refugee camps in their own country and you dont seem to care. Israelis have a country of their own. How would like it if you didn't have a country, if millions of immigrants came and started taking over your land, and the rest of the world didn't really care? What would you do? I think the fact that you don't seem to take that into consideration, that you don't try to put yourself in their shoes, speaks of your human values more than I can.



Have a very good day.

[hendrix33]

Sure, that justifies bombing busses full of children.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030909/capt.1063144905.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl804.jpg

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030909/i/1063145872.2617442392.jpg

Sorry, after these, and seeing some funerals on TV I don't think I'll have a great day. What? They didn't show that on CNN? How objective of them.

More funerals tommorow, too.

[Tom.G]

Shure, but you kill their children too. The senior Hamas leaders son was killed when you bombed his house. I'm sure that more Arab children have been killed in the past fifty years. But wait. They don't even have a country. They don't even have an Army. They are bunch of guys with guns and home made bombs. You have occupied their land and are treating them like dirt. What gave you the rite to bulldoze their houses?
What gave you the rite leave them with nothing? To take away their rights? Israel jumped at every opurtunity to take land from the arabs: in 56 they invaded Sinai. In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.
Israel is the reason the Middle-East is unstable. You used brute force in the past and now you most of all are feeling the sting of terrorism. You are paying for what you'er fathers did.

The Jews have Bush by the balls! It is thanks to the Yanks that your country exists. If they cut off aid, you would all die and the arabs would treat you like you treat them.

P.S. CNN loves Israel

Love Desert Sloth

[Joshisonfire]

Both side are at fault....now don't flame me cause this is my first post...

[hendrix33]

Shure, but you kill their children too. The senior Hamas leaders son was killed when you bombed his house. I'm sure that more Arab children have been killed in the past fifty years. But wait. They don't even have a country. They don't even have an Army. They are bunch of guys with guns and home made bombs. You have occupied their land and are treating them like dirt. What gave you the rite to bulldoze their houses?
What gave you the rite leave them with nothing? To take away their rights? Israel jumped at every opurtunity to take land from the arabs: in 56 they invaded Sinai. In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.
Israel is the reason the Middle-East is unstable. You used brute force in the past and now you most of all are feeling the sting of terrorism. You are paying for what you'er fathers did.

The Jews have Bush by the balls! It is thanks to the Yanks that your country exists. If they cut off aid, you would all die and the arabs would treat you like you treat them.

P.S. CNN loves Israel

Love Desert Sloth


Well, I don't even know where to start. You want me to bring you a can of Cyclone-B so you could finish what you implly here?

To the point, you've spoken too much BS, and I don't have the energy to give you a history class (04:27 a.m. local). Why don't you read a book on the six days war, before you spill such a rubbish?

I try sticking to facts when I talk. If I don't know something, I don't make up things or quote phrases I heard without knowing their contents. I know the region's history. Go, read a book, and come back with facts.

And most important, be well and have peace, wherever you are.

[Tom.G]

You accuse me of not knowing facts? Please, tell me what I have said that is not true or what quotes I have "made up".

I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. And I will sleep peacefully tonight. But if really do live in Israel, then I know that you won't.

[hendrix33]

In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.


This 'fact' is almost amusing. I'm really not in the mood for a history lesson, and really recommend you take a reading into it if you're interested in this subject.
Israel took a pre-emptive action, as you said yourself.

pre·emp·tive or pre-emp·tive adj. - Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent
Source: http://www.dictionary.com

That says it all, doesn't it?
In two sentences. What came before the pre-emptive attack was Egypt expelsion of the UN peacekeepers who were supposed to be the safeguards of Sinai Penninsula, AFTER Israel gave it back after '56 "invasion" as you put is. After removing the UN from Sinai, th Egyptians poured a huge amount of military to the DeMiliterized zone, which is a Causus Belli (spelling?) - An Act Of War.
I can go on, but I don't really feel like. Read a book and come back with facts.

Another easily verifiable fact:
P.S. CNN loves Israel


Last year, Israeli Ministry of communication wanted to shut CNN broadcast to Israel. On the same time, the cable and satelite companies (private ones, of course), decided to sign an agreement with FOX instead of CNN therefore ceasing the broadcasts of CNN. The cause of these two steps I've specified was the enraging lack of objectivity in the coverage of the conflict, such as calling a shooting ambush that killed an entire family "exchange of fire", counting the dead terrorists with the casualties.

Anyway, to conclude, I'm not into a mud-fight with you, but it seems you don't feel the same way.

Oh, and one last thing:
But if really do live in Israel, then I know that you won't.

Are you accussing me of pretending to live in Israel? I didn't get to the bottom of this remark.

Shalom.

[Ichhabe]

Lets get back on track. I said it before and I say it again. This topic is about UNIFIL and IDF in Lebanon.

What I'm curious about is the Israeli soldiers point of view inside what happened/happens in Lebanon.

We met the Israeli on a daily basis. Often it was just ok. We could nod to eachoter politely or sometimes gave eachother the evil eye and have a staring competition.

Sometimes we were harrased by them. I personally got a grenade thrown after me(no hard feelings) by a Israeli soldier. It turned out to be a smoke or CS-grenade. But those few second until it started to spew smoke I was not sure.

Sometimes when we met on the road we could walk around like tom cats in circle meassuering eachother, and as I said earlier; get shot at for no reason by the IDF.

But now, let me try to reply on some of your postings.
Remember; These are MY point of views. It is as a private person I say this, and shall not be considered as anything else.



ArmoredDov_D9 said:
First, the IDF is no longer in Lebanon.

Secondly, you probably know about the abducation of the 3 soldiers by Hizbullah terrorist, supported by the UN peacekeeping force from India.
The Israelis see UN troops cooperating with the terrorists and therefore sees them as ENEMY.

Norway ain't there no more either. We pulled out in November1998, after being there since April 1978.

Personally I cannot belive that the Indian soldiers cooperated with Hizbollah in those abductions. So I cannot response more to those accusations.

Sirpad said:
Desert Sloth - good thing it's the norwegian battalion is the one deployed in south lebanon, and not the canadian one. i don't want to think about the results of such deployment...


Sad to say, we ain't there no more. Pulled out in 1998.

citizen-k said:
They fired right outside the post while the UN soldiers DID NOTHING to stop them until there was no other option but to shell the terrorists. (hoping not to hit the post itself)
If the UN soldiers weren’t protecting the terrorists and they were driving them away from the posts fence none of this would have happen.



I heared a lot about that episode. Privatly I felt that unfortunatley the IDF did the "right" thing, responding to that rocket attack. I don't know were those rockets where heading, but I see it as IDF was tricked to do that respone.

Again I do not belive that the Fiji' soldiers protected them as you says, but that is your point of view.




When I was down there in 1986 and 1987 we had quite a rigid Rules of Engagement-code that we had to stand by. As them before us, and those who came after us had.

When shot upon we could not respond unless we knew we were shot upon.
I asked the officers: when do we know when we're shot upon? The reply was simple; you know when you are shot upon.
I asked then if that was when the first man fall, then we can say we are shot upon, and not sooner, the reply was, Yes.

Secondly; we could not intervine if any of the parties did something to oneanother or civilians. Our "job" was to observe and report. (Not that we didn't do otherwise if we knew we could get away with it.)

Thirdly: Every day we patroled the roads for roadside bombs by dawns early light, before the Israeli patrols came driving through. And we did find bombs. We also found car bombs meant for either IDF or SLA.

Every night there were numerous patrols out in the AO, specially by night to intercept infiltrators heading for Israeli positions or Israel itself.
I know this cause I was on these sort of patrols, specially the road patroling looking for roadsides...

Citizen-k also says that we alerted everyone when Israeli patrols came. I sure tell you that we never did so, Standard procedure was to put a "tail" on the patrol and follow them wherever they went. But alerting everybody, no.

For the record; The Norwgian battalion was squeased between every party down there, specially in the beginning of the UNIFIL-mission. One one day they could be shelled both by PLO and SLA, getting shot at by the IDF and infiltrators comming from Syria or further north in Lebanon. Nobody liked them it seenmed like, but they hanged on and tried to do their best.

Maybe asking the population of South-Lebanon on their point of view would be better? ;)

[hendrix33]

Well, I didn't get to serve on Lebanon (almost ;)), because I'm appearantly younger than my fellow Israelis here. But I can tell you this: there might have been times where alot of anger was directed at the UN, and for just cause. The kidnapping incident is a singular example. There are many others.

But my point is this: No Israeli soldier would've EVER try to harm a UN person intentionally. Most of events you've mentioned sounds to me like mistakes in identifing. We had our share of friendly fire incident in Lebanon which resulted in casualties and fatalities. If IDF can mistake it's own people for Hizbollah, it's possible you guys might have been mistaken for Hizbollah either.

Purity of Arms - The IDF servicemen and women will use
their weapons and force only for the purpose of their mission, only
to the necessary extent and will maintain their humanity even
during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force
to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war,
and will do all in their power to avoid causing harm to their lives,
bodies, dignity and property.

Source: IDF Official page http://www.idf.il/english/doctrine/doctrine.stm

This is one of IDF's Ethic Code Core Beliefs. Every soldier carries it in his/hers pocket. It is taught from the first week of boot-camp, in all the courses and trainnings. This is overly emphasissed on the commanding levels and their trainning. This is NOT a make-belief, it's a true pricipal of IDF, and one of the things which differentiates us from the terrorists we fight.

I would really recomment reading further in the link I've posted to further realize the moral and ethic guidlines and principles guiding IDF.

To conclude: I can't believe anyon would have try to harm any UN person intentionally. Yes, there was and there still is great anger, but no enough to break the most basic of moral principles you've been taught - even before they taught you how to be a soldier at boot-camp.

[FallenAngel]

Shure, but you kill their children too. The senior Hamas leaders son was killed when you bombed his house.

Yes...because Islamic terrorists hide in crowds of women and children. See my pic I posted above. Also, that "son" was 21 years old. That isn't a child.

They don't even have a country. They don't even have an Army. They are bunch of guys with guns and home made bombs. You have occupied their land and are treating them like dirt. What gave you the rite to bulldoze their houses?

Israel has offered the Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza as their OWN country more than once. All they ask in return is that the PA disarm/disband groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, etc. Guys with guns and home made bombs who fight the IDF are TRUE "Freedom Fighters". Guys with guns and home made bombs that blow up buses, schools and discos are terrorist. Thus, to protect EVERYONE, the IDF imposes curfews and check-points. If the Palestinians don't like it, they can blame Arafat and the terrorists. Also, they only bulldoze the houses of terrorists- usually after they blow themselves up.

What gave you the rite leave them with nothing? To take away their rights? Israel jumped at every opurtunity to take land from the arabs: in 56 they invaded Sinai. In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.

Again, blame the terrorists. Before the past 3 years of violence, Palestinians had a better life co-existing with Israel. They got the "right" to protect themselves. As for territory...yeah, they like to take land. That's why they've given over 90% of it BACK to the countries that ATTACKED them. As for pre-empting the Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians- you have to f*cking kidding me! What the f*ck do you want them to do? Sit there and wait for them to attack and kill thousands? I guess you're one of those guys who doesn't flinch at all when someone swings their fist at you. F*cking moron.

Israel is the reason the Middle-East is unstable. You used brute force in the past and now you most of all are feeling the sting of terrorism. You are paying for what you'er fathers did.

Wait, first you say they are simply defending their homes and such. NOW they're terrorists? You seriously need to figure out which side of the fence you're on.

The Jews have Bush by the balls! It is thanks to the Yanks that your country exists. If they cut off aid, you would all die and the arabs would treat you like you treat them.

Actually....it was more like the british. But, sure, the US had a small hand in it too. As for the aide...in case you haven't heard, the Israelis don't get that much compared to countries in Africa or even North Korea. The vast majority of the money must be spent in the USA also- which they use primarily so far to buy aircraft and small arms, although IMI is taking over the small-arms portion. Course, at least they paid for it, unlike some of the old warsaw-pact cold-war relics the arabs were given.

Overall....you need to educate yourself before you open your mouth again- you just embarass yourself like an ass :)

[hendrix33]

Fallen Angel:

Eh.... that was WAY more articulate than I could have put it myself

:hug:

[Ichhabe]

The topic is not about Israelis and Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territiries. please don't hijack!

[citizen-k]

I heared a lot about that episode. Privatly I felt that unfortunatley the IDF did the "right" thing, responding to that rocket attack. I don't know were those rockets where heading, but I see it as IDF was tricked to do that respone.

Again I do not belive that the Fiji' soldiers protected them as you says, but that is your point of view.


Well, you heared about that episode and so did the UN general (the cloud monkey guy) but the UN decided it was the IDF's fault and that it was planned to bomb that post. (kafar kana) So how should an IDF soldier feel when he see that the UN is working against him?
I personly dislike the UN after I spent days and nights to "protect" them from the IDF's fire - and then they used those "no fire zones" to allow the Hizbullah to fire at our cities. (Which in one of them my family lives)

I've seen the UN soldiers expose IDF's patrols and SF operations in Lebanon while they set down and did nothing when hizbulla TERRORISTS moved freely under their "wings"... makes you wonder what does the UN is realy after in Lebanon...

BTW, speaking of UN - you had a great ice hockey team which we played with...

[ogukuo72]

The United Nations is NOT a nation in itself. It's wrong to say that UN is biased or not. It would be fairer to say the soldiers from a particular country is biased or not.

That aside, the UN peacekeepers are notoriously ineffective as long as they operate under the "Blue Helmet" format, where they are assigned to interpose themselves between two parties that had no intention to make peace. The Rules of Engagement often leaves the Blue Helmets as hostages to fate, being unable to do much to stop aggressive action on either side. Indeed, given the restrictions on them, they became pawns in the games played by both sides. This seems to be the case in Southern Lebanon.

This certainly was the case in Bosnia in 1995. The UN was essentially helpless to assist the Bosnian Muslim victims of Serb atrocities. Indeed, there was evidence that in order to protect their own troops, certain contributing countries (I shan't mention who for I don't want to start a fight with a contributor here, but you can search the internet for info) "aggressively and actively turned their collective blind eyes" to Serb atrocities in areas supposedly under the protection of peacekeeper from those countries. The troops were forbidden to execute their UN mandate for fear that Serb militia would attack the troops.

So, I can under Israeli frustration with the UN on this count. Certain national contingents were probably instructed to turn a blind eye to Hizbollah activity because they might attack the contingent if it takes action. On the other hand, in the case of the Israelis, the relevant country CAN do something about it through diplomatic channels.

Thus, the irony is that a country like Israel faces much protest from certain countries for being too aggressive because they functioned under the rule of international law, whereas a terrorist group like Hizbollah can do pretty much what they want because they do not obey the rules of law.

[hendrix33]

Well Said.

[citizen-k]

The United Nations is NOT a nation in itself. It's wrong to say that UN is biased or not. It would be fairer to say the soldiers from a particular country is biased or not.

That aside, the UN peacekeepers are notoriously ineffective as long as they operate under the "Blue Helmet" format, where they are assigned to interpose themselves between two parties that had no intention to make peace. The Rules of Engagement often leaves the Blue Helmets as hostages to fate, being unable to do much to stop aggressive action on either side. Indeed, given the restrictions on them, they became pawns in the games played by both sides. This seems to be the case in Southern Lebanon.

This certainly was the case in Bosnia in 1995. The UN was essentially helpless to assist the Bosnian Muslim victims of Serb atrocities. Indeed, there was evidence that in order to protect their own troops, certain contributing countries (I shan't mention who for I don't want to start a fight with a contributor here, but you can search the internet for info) "aggressively and actively turned their collective blind eyes" to Serb atrocities in areas supposedly under the protection of peacekeeper from those countries. The troops were forbidden to execute their UN mandate for fear that Serb militia would attack the troops.

So, I can under Israeli frustration with the UN on this count. Certain national contingents were probably instructed to turn a blind eye to Hizbollah activity because they might attack the contingent if it takes action. On the other hand, in the case of the Israelis, the relevant country CAN do something about it through diplomatic channels.

Thus, the irony is that a country like Israel faces much protest from certain countries for being too aggressive because they functioned under the rule of international law, whereas a terrorist group like Hizbollah can do pretty much what they want because they do not obey the rules of law.

So it turns out to be that the UN is actually protecting those who don't obey the rules of law...

As for biased or not, well, you don't actually believe that Israel will run the Security Council some day in the near future, do you?
(Unlike peace keeping, well known human rights protector Syria is today)

In case you wonder what Cloud Monkey is: Koffy sound like kof, which is a monkey in Hebrew and anan is a cloud in Hebrew - PM Ehud Barak used to call him Cloud Monkey.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

ArmoredDov_D9 said:
Quote:
First, the IDF is no longer in Lebanon.

Secondly, you probably know about the abducation of the 3 soldiers by Hizbullah terrorist, supported by the UN peacekeeping force from India.
The Israelis see UN troops cooperating with the terrorists and therefore sees them as ENEMY.


Norway ain't there no more either. We pulled out in November1998, after being there since April 1978.

Personally I cannot belive that the Indian soldiers cooperated with Hizbollah in those abductions. So I cannot response more to those accusations.

I give you reference. Read and judge.
This abduction is one of the reason why Israelis think the UN is biased against them.


UN to probe allegations peacekeepers collaborated with Hezbollah
Israeli troops kidnapped on border

Steven Edwards
National Post

UNITED NATIONS - Senior United Nations officials flew to the Middle East yesterday to probe allegations Indian peacekeepers in southern Lebanon helped Hezbollah guerrillas kidnap three Israeli soldiers last October.

The investigation is an extension of one ordered last week by Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General, into why UN officials misled the Israeli government about the existence of a videotape thought to show the guerrillas who carried out the abduction.

Maariv, Israel's second largest newspaper, quoted an Indian UN peacekeeper Friday as saying four colleagues had collaborated with the kidnappers.

Dozens of Indian peacekeepers witnessed the abduction, which took place near a hilltop outpost manned by an Indian battalion, the newspaper reported.

In the months before the incident, Hezbollah had bribed the peacekeepers with cash, women and alcohol to turn a blind eye to the abduction, Maariv quoted the peacekeeper as saying.

The kidnappers are believed to have been dressed in UN uniforms and driving two vehicles bearing fake UN licence plates when they lured the three Israeli soldiers to the border fence.

Timour Goksel, a spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force, has strongly denied the charges.

"Any unproven allegations are a slander and an insult," he said. "It is very easy to cast doubt on people and doubt their integrity by merely accusing them of maybe this and maybe that."

No evidence has emerged to support the bribery allegations.

A senior Israeli official said yesterday it was unclear if there had been any collaboration between the Indians and Hezbollah, which is backed by Syria and Iran.

Israeli officials are reported to have interviewed members of last October's Indian contingent, who have been replaced by other Indian soldiers under normal rotation procedures.

The officials want to talk to an Indian soldier quoted by a Lebanese newspaper two days after the kidnapping, say sources cited by The Jerusalem Post. The soldier suggested one Indian peacekeeper had allowed the guerrillas to drive to the abduction site.

The UN investigation is headed by Joseph Connor, head of the Department of Management and one of Mr. Annan's most senior deputies. Mr. Annan originally wanted him to probe why the UN had told the Israelis it knew nothing of a 30-minute videotape shot by an Indian peacekeeper 18 hours after the abduction. This shows Hezbollah guerrillas preventing UN soldiers from towing the vehicles used by the kidnappers.

The UN still refuses to show Israel the tape unless the guerrillas' faces are blacked out, saying it needs to maintain its neutrality.

[Tom.G]

In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.


This 'fact' is almost amusing. I'm really not in the mood for a history lesson, and really recommend you take a reading into it if you're interested in this subject.
Israel took a pre-emptive action, as you said yourself.

pre·emp·tive or pre-emp·tive adj. - Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent
Source: http://www.dictionary.com

That says it all, doesn't it?
In two sentences. What came before the pre-emptive attack was Egypt expelsion of the UN peacekeepers who were supposed to be the safeguards of Sinai Penninsula, AFTER Israel gave it back after '56 "invasion" as you put is. After removing the UN from Sinai, th Egyptians poured a huge amount of military to the DeMiliterized zone, which is a Causus Belli (spelling?) - An Act Of War.
I can go on, but I don't really feel like. Read a book and come back with facts.

Another easily verifiable fact:
P.S. CNN loves Israel


Last year, Israeli Ministry of communication wanted to shut CNN broadcast to Israel. On the same time, the cable and satelite companies (private ones, of course), decided to sign an agreement with FOX instead of CNN therefore ceasing the broadcasts of CNN. The cause of these two steps I've specified was the enraging lack of objectivity in the coverage of the conflict, such as calling a shooting ambush that killed an entire family "exchange of fire", counting the dead terrorists with the casualties.

Anyway, to conclude, I'm not into a mud-fight with you, but it seems you don't feel the same way.

Oh, and one last thing:
But if really do live in Israel, then I know that you won't.

Are you accussing me of pretending to live in Israel? I didn't get to the bottom of this remark.

Shalom.

Alright, i'm going to stop arguing. Simply because its all of you ****ing assholes against me. The bottom of the remark is that since you (Hendrix33) live in Israel you're ****ed. Hope ypou don't get blown up on a bus today.

Peace out

[ogukuo72]

:roll: I find it very difficult to understand this unreasoning hatred.

[Chris1]

<**** it, I really can't be bothered :) >

[Ichhabe]

Maariv, Israel's second largest newspaper, quoted an Indian UN peacekeeper Friday as saying four colleagues had collaborated with the kidnappers.

Dozens of Indian peacekeepers witnessed the abduction, which took place near a hilltop outpost manned by an Indian battalion, the newspaper reported.

In the months before the incident, Hezbollah had bribed the peacekeepers with cash, women and alcohol to turn a blind eye to the abduction, Maariv quoted the peacekeeper as saying.



"Any unproven allegations are a slander and an insult," he said. "It is very easy to cast doubt on people and doubt their integrity by merely accusing them of maybe this and maybe that."

No evidence has emerged to support the bribery allegations.

A senior Israeli official said yesterday it was unclear if there had been any collaboration between the Indians and Hezbollah, which is backed by Syria and Iran.


It says four Indian peace keepers. NOT the whole battalion.

It says dozen of Indian peace keepers saw it. Yes. And that was all they could do. ROE tells them so.

If it is true that some UN-soldiers were bribed. Then of course it it a criminal act, done by those who was bribed. NOT the whole of UNIFIL.

And what in the last paragraph, does the senior Israeli official say? Am I blind or stupid???

[perdurabo]

look for general topic jews accusing Poles to be nazis!

[FallenAngel]

^ Ignore him. He's just trying to start a flame war. :bash:

[citizen-k]

look for general topic jews accusing Poles to be nazis!

look for general topic perdurabo is having trouble understanding simple English

[Herrmannek]

Perdurabo didn't want to start flame war, just wanted to know what others not Poles or not Jews are thinkig about that. But now we explained each other critical cases, so cease fire

[perdurabo]

hell engilsh is my 4th foregin language so i sometimes get misspeled or sth like that...
i didn't wanted to start flame war i wanted to know what are non Jews/Poles think about that and secondly like is history teached in other countries!
CK i'm waitting for your letter :) (sorry for mistake you and D9)
What are you thinking guys about creating a web site to fight with misunderstundings and myths about history? for all nations?

[hendrix33]

In 67 they pre-empted, Six days war killing thousands of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians without having been touched.


This 'fact' is almost amusing. I'm really not in the mood for a history lesson, and really recommend you take a reading into it if you're interested in this subject.
Israel took a pre-emptive action, as you said yourself.

pre·emp·tive or pre-emp·tive adj. - Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent
Source: http://www.dictionary.com

That says it all, doesn't it?
In two sentences. What came before the pre-emptive attack was Egypt expelsion of the UN peacekeepers who were supposed to be the safeguards of Sinai Penninsula, AFTER Israel gave it back after '56 "invasion" as you put is. After removing the UN from Sinai, th Egyptians poured a huge amount of military to the DeMiliterized zone, which is a Causus Belli (spelling?) - An Act Of War.
I can go on, but I don't really feel like. Read a book and come back with facts.

Another easily verifiable fact:
P.S. CNN loves Israel


Last year, Israeli Ministry of communication wanted to shut CNN broadcast to Israel. On the same time, the cable and satelite companies (private ones, of course), decided to sign an agreement with FOX instead of CNN therefore ceasing the broadcasts of CNN. The cause of these two steps I've specified was the enraging lack of objectivity in the coverage of the conflict, such as calling a shooting ambush that killed an entire family "exchange of fire", counting the dead terrorists with the casualties.

Anyway, to conclude, I'm not into a mud-fight with you, but it seems you don't feel the same way.

Oh, and one last thing:
But if really do live in Israel, then I know that you won't.

Are you accussing me of pretending to live in Israel? I didn't get to the bottom of this remark.

Shalom.

Alright, i'm going to stop arguing. Simply because its all of you f*** assholes against me. The bottom of the remark is that since you (Hendrix33) live in Israel you're f***. Hope ypou don't get blown up on a bus today.

Peace out

Well, if THAT's the best you can come up with after all of what I've said. All I have to respond to that is that usually debating anti-semitics is way more challenging. It's always hard to face facts buddy.

Have a peacefull and prosperous life.

[Nizark]

So, in conclusion, unless someone hasn't realized it, the UN is useless as anything besides a humanitarian/food dispensing body. There are still UN troops is the sinai and numerous other places,20-40 years after they were deployed. People use the UN so they will look good to this joke of a int'l community, especially if they get a mandate. There is no standing UN peacekeeping army, so if a nation, for example, the USA, who have a stake in a conflict, they won't send in troops. Didn't the UN establish israel as a state? didnt the UN create the whole demarkcation line in Kasmir? Aren't the troops in s. korea, while mostly US, fly under a UN 'command?" Why do these other countries give a crap if their troops are with a UN mandate or not? I can understand the whole legitimacy factor, but don't they know what good it would be to be on the USA's good side? The Polish say which way the wind was blowing and sent in troops..just watch, within 5 years, the US, german based troops will be in poland, with only Ramstein as the the hold out.
Overall, the UN has no place in high intensity conflicts like israel/palestine or iraq. Liberia and africa sure, since the have pretty much equal arms.
Hell, the UN should buy a couple of Stryker Brigades and quit asking for handouts from the so-called International Community.[/i]

[Sabre]

The following was written by captain Special Operations Thomas Milo:


I feel I must spell out that I find the Israeli claim that they never target civilians or UN positions, outrageous.

As an officer in the Dutch contingent of Unifil in 1980 I have personal experience of a UN observation post next to a 150 mm gun position in the southernmost hills in Lebanon overlooking the orchards all the way towards Tyre. The gun was guarded by what the UN technically referred to as De Facto Forces (DFF - Lebanese militiamen, as they weren't recognized belligerents in the sense of the Geneva Convention).

Two, three times a week a car would come in from the Israeli side of the border with a load of IDF (Israeli Defence Force) types, dressed up as civilians. Then the gun would fire a handful of rounds into the city of Tyre. Of course, as with all ordnance, they usually missed. But every once in a while, splash, in the middle of a square filled with schoolchildren. Or an apartment building. Or a marketplace. There were never camera crews around to take the ensuing scenes to a larger audience, but I assure you they weren't much different form the ones filmed at UNIFIL Fijibat post 1.11 in Qana, or the images from Sarajevo for that matter.

I visited this gun post several times and actually drank coffee with the guards, which, in a way, was my job. I observed that all the maps and plotting material was in Hebrew, as were the reference charts on the gun.

At times I had the pleasure, too, of being at the receiving end, in Tyre Barracks. Courtesy of our own UN OP next to the gun, we would hear on the military frequency that the car had arrived, when the gun was loaded and when it fired. Needless to say, no such broadcast was available to the people of Tyre. A senseless practice for which we didn't understand the military justification.

As for the shelling of the Fiji Headquarters - painted all white and its exact location known to the IDF for almost twenty years - it is impossible accept that it didn't happen on purpose.

Again from personal experience, I know that endangering UNIFIL personnel was of no concern for the IDF or the DFF when there was an opportunity to get a shot at the real enemy: AE (Armed Elements in UN parlance), usually PLO or LNM (Lebanese National Movement) infiltrants within the UN Area of Operation.

One of the tasks of UNIFIL was - and is -, of course, to try and stop any armed ingressions. So that was what we were doing all the time. A fully equipped NATO Armoured Infantry Battalion taken intact from the battle order in the North German Lowlands opposite a formidable array of Warsaw Pact Forces, Dutchbat had all the contraptions to spot them on their way in. It goes too far to explain this in detail, but we intercepted most of them.

Our infantrymen went on foot patrols, silently, set up listening posts, until they spotted movement. Then with the help of 120 mm light grenades, fired from our Heavy Weapons position in Siddiqin, they would corner the infiltration team, often four or five youngsters aged between 16 and 24 with AK 47 assault rifles and hand grenade as personal arms and a single RPG (Reaktivnyi Protivotankovyi Granatomet - Recoilless Anti-tank Grenade Launcher) as a group weapon; in other words, lightly armed.

The next move would be to call in a negotiating team - of which I was a member - from Dutchbat HQ to disarm the infiltrants. Now one needs to realise, that unlike in places like New York or Amsterdam, nights in South Lebanon are absolutely silent. The starting of a vehicle could be heard miles away.

To get to the point, if the IDF and/or DFF hadn't already opened up fire into the area covered by the light grenade, the arrival of the UN negotiation team vehicles in the area would trigger systematic 0.50 calibre machine gun fire often supported by heavy mortar rounds.

Such barrages didn't exactly contribute to a relaxed atmosphere for having a disarming encounter with a virtual suicide squad, to put it mildly. Fortunately, the firing seldom accomplished anything worth mentioning, but the intention was clearly there. It had to go wrong some time, and it did in Qana.

[ogukuo72]

Not all UN peacekeeping efforts are useless. All I'm saying is that the "blue helmet" type of peace keeping is at the mercy of the cooperation of the hostile parties.

The "camo helmet" type of peace keeper, like IFOR and KFOR is not. These peacekeepers are willing to fight to truly KEEP the peace.

It depends on the national contingent as well. As I said before, certain national contingents disgraced themselves by their cowardiance in Lebanon and Bosnia, appeasing the bullies, tyrants and terrorists to protect their own soldiers.

Then there are those countries that were willing to draw the line and fight those who crossed it. In Sierra Loane, the Brits were put in charge of peace keeping by the UN. When a rebel faction kidnapped British soldiers, the Brits sent in the SAS and the Paras to rescue the soldiers, and shoot up the guilty party. After that, there was no more repeat of such incidents, and the mission proceeded smoothly after that. Today, political stability has returned to SL. THAT is KEEPING the peace.

[citizen-k]

The following was written by captain Special Operations Thomas Milo:


I feel I must spell out that I find the Israeli claim that they never target civilians or UN positions, outrageous.

As an officer in the Dutch contingent of Unifil in 1980 I have personal experience of a UN observation post next to a 150 mm gun position in the southernmost hills in Lebanon overlooking the orchards all the way towards Tyre. The gun was guarded by what the UN technically referred to as De Facto Forces (DFF - Lebanese militiamen, as they weren't recognized belligerents in the sense of the Geneva Convention).

Two, three times a week a car would come in from the Israeli side of the border with a load of IDF (Israeli Defence Force) types, dressed up as civilians. Then the gun would fire a handful of rounds into the city of Tyre. Of course, as with all ordnance, they usually missed. But every once in a while, splash, in the middle of a square filled with schoolchildren. Or an apartment building. Or a marketplace. There were never camera crews around to take the ensuing scenes to a larger audience, but I assure you they weren't much different form the ones filmed at UNIFIL Fijibat post 1.11 in Qana, or the images from Sarajevo for that matter.

I visited this gun post several times and actually drank coffee with the guards, which, in a way, was my job. I observed that all the maps and plotting material was in Hebrew, as were the reference charts on the gun.

At times I had the pleasure, too, of being at the receiving end, in Tyre Barracks. Courtesy of our own UN OP next to the gun, we would hear on the military frequency that the car had arrived, when the gun was loaded and when it fired. Needless to say, no such broadcast was available to the people of Tyre. A senseless practice for which we didn't understand the military justification.

As for the shelling of the Fiji Headquarters - painted all white and its exact location known to the IDF for almost twenty years - it is impossible accept that it didn't happen on purpose.

Again from personal experience, I know that endangering UNIFIL personnel was of no concern for the IDF or the DFF when there was an opportunity to get a shot at the real enemy: AE (Armed Elements in UN parlance), usually PLO or LNM (Lebanese National Movement) infiltrants within the UN Area of Operation.

One of the tasks of UNIFIL was - and is -, of course, to try and stop any armed ingressions. So that was what we were doing all the time. A fully equipped NATO Armoured Infantry Battalion taken intact from the battle order in the North German Lowlands opposite a formidable array of Warsaw Pact Forces, Dutchbat had all the contraptions to spot them on their way in. It goes too far to explain this in detail, but we intercepted most of them.

Our infantrymen went on foot patrols, silently, set up listening posts, until they spotted movement. Then with the help of 120 mm light grenades, fired from our Heavy Weapons position in Siddiqin, they would corner the infiltration team, often four or five youngsters aged between 16 and 24 with AK 47 assault rifles and hand grenade as personal arms and a single RPG (Reaktivnyi Protivotankovyi Granatomet - Recoilless Anti-tank Grenade Launcher) as a group weapon; in other words, lightly armed.

The next move would be to call in a negotiating team - of which I was a member - from Dutchbat HQ to disarm the infiltrants. Now one needs to realise, that unlike in places like New York or Amsterdam, nights in South Lebanon are absolutely silent. The starting of a vehicle could be heard miles away.

To get to the point, if the IDF and/or DFF hadn't already opened up fire into the area covered by the light grenade, the arrival of the UN negotiation team vehicles in the area would trigger systematic 0.50 calibre machine gun fire often supported by heavy mortar rounds.

Such barrages didn't exactly contribute to a relaxed atmosphere for having a disarming encounter with a virtual suicide squad, to put it mildly. Fortunately, the firing seldom accomplished anything worth mentioning, but the intention was clearly there. It had to go wrong some time, and it did in Qana.

This is the most funny/idiotic story I have ever read about UN/IDF in Lebanon...

"IDF soldiers dressed up as civilians, come from the Israeli side, to use a gun guarded by locals..." - huh?

As for shelling Kafar Kana - the IDF knew it was a UN post (nobody ever said otherwise) that is exactly why the terrorists used it to shell Israeli cities - they knew its a safe place. (safe as IDF won't shoot them and the UN won't get in their way)

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

[citizen-k]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

[martinexsquaddie]

Most of the UN blue berats are put in impossible situations and given frankly idiotic ROEs. Most of the 3rd world troops don't have either the kit the training or the leadership to be much use. The irish army used to go to lebannon I saw them in action on the border shambles and when were camp fires tactical. :oops:
since 1946 the UN has been a political football between the soviets and the US since the soviets stopped playing the US does'nt want the UN being effective.
when peace support/peace enforcement works its because the Troops are equipped trained and prepared to be aggresive when neccesariy.
The effect in Bosnia cetain countries troops in lightly armoured wheeled
carriers lots of problems Brits in warrior no problems because the combatants knew the average brit squaddie would'nt mind going home with some kills if give the opportunity so the bad guys tended to avoid giving them the opportunity no blood y negociation teams :fork:

[Haiw]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

u weren't there in 1980...the story isnt all that 'bull****tic' (is that a word?) as u say it is...

[citizen-k]

citizen-k: Oh, there are so much you don't know about Southern Lebanon.

Where were you on April 1996? I was in the IDF's north command post, Authrizing/Not authorizing shelling requests which came from the field.

Live there for over 20 years, know the people, speak their language, serve in a posion where I knew about everything that happened in the area - and I know nothing, right...
I'm sure that you know better...after all - your from Noway.


http://www.jafi.org.il/education/kana.html

u weren't there in 1980...the story isnt all that 'bull****tic' (is that a word?) as u say it is...

Yabayeyyyy, You know where I was during the 80's? (my long lost brother or something?)

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k said:

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

Huh??? Do you really belive in that yourself??? rofl

Or?? You really do belive in that... :|

Well, it is up to you.

I have nothing to be ashamed for, nor any of those UN-soldiers I served with.

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.

[Haiw]

Yabayeyyyy, You know where I was during the 80's? (my long lost brother or something?)

it was 1980, not the 80's...and it's called deduction... in 1980 u were still learning how to say anything different than 'mama' and 'dada'

[citizen-k]

citizen-k said:

UN soldiers cooperated with terrorists in order to hurt IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians - they can only blame themselves for every bullet/shell fired at them by the IDF. (April 1996 for example)

Huh??? Do you really belive in that yourself??? rofl

Or?? You really do belive in that... :|

Well, it is up to you.

I have nothing to be ashamed for, nor any of those UN-soldiers I served with.

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.

"Lebanese men" as Lebanese terrorists? ;)
(I don't recall any UN soldiors sheltering Israeli cities from been bombed or infiltrated by terrorists from Lebanon :| )

I'm sure you have nothing to be ashamed for - you did what you believe is best - help terrorists harm Israel. :bash:

I'm very much ashamed for all the time I have wasted marking those maps telling where NOT to bomb so UN soldiers won't get hurt, especially after what the UN soldiers and Chief general did with the 3 kidnapped soldiers. I should have used that time on marking maps of more caves and bunkers used to hide weapons by UN ally's. :oops:

You actually believe there were IDF's soldiers who wanted to kill you and failed? :cantbeli:

[citizen-k]

To bad I did not put down the name of that Israeli APC-commander throwing a grenade on me while I was occupied sheltering those 15 Lebanese men that was quite sceared when 2 IDF APC's approached them... Man, if that incident had been caught on film.


There is one incident which was caught on film...
The one where members of a terror organization kidnaps 3 IDF's soldiers while using UN vehicles - the UN refused to hand over the film to the IDF in order to hide their part and to protect the terrorists.

But I'm sure that your film would have made 6 o'klock news headlines...

[ogukuo72]

Can anyone say what the UN ROEs are, when it comes to situation like the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers, or when Hizbollah launch rocket attacks over the border?

Ichabe, perhaps you can share what the ROEs you were operating under for the two situations above?

[Ichhabe]

citizen-k said:
I'm sure you have nothing to be ashamed for - you did what you believe is best - help terrorists harm Israel.

I had my doubts if I wanted to ask that questionon how IDF-soldiers looked upon UN-soldiers. Now you just proven me right.

Those Lebanes men were ordinary Lebanes civilians standing outside the UN-camps selling video films and music cassettes to UN-soldiers. But you wont belive me of course no matter what I say.

I'm very much ashamed for all the time I have wasted marking those maps telling where NOT to bomb so UN soldiers won't get hurt, especially after what the UN soldiers and Chief general did with the 3 kidnapped soldiers. I should have used that time on marking maps of more caves and bunkers used to hide weapons by UN ally's.

Be so ashamed you want to. i am not ashamed for all those nights I've been out searching for road side bombs meant for the IDF. Or those nights on patrol looking for infiltrators. Neither of those incidents were we followed the IDF so they knew we had an eye on them. I was a UN-soldier and was supposed to be neutral. But that is a word you'll never going to be able to understand.

You actually believe there were IDF's soldiers who wanted to kill you and failed?

Where did I say that he was trying to kill me? I said he threw a grenade after me. What I saw out of the situation was that those IDF-soldiers wanted to try some trick against them Lebanese. I went back and stood as a shield between the IDF and those men. I knew that if they tried to shoot, those bullets had to pass me. I figuered that 15 killed Lebanese would not be mentioned on the news, but if a UN-soldier got killed it would.
But as I said; It turned out to be a smoke- or CS-grenade that he threw at me. I do know the Killing-effectiviness of the IDF, so you don't need to leacture me on that.

And you are one of many reasons that it is so hard to be a friend of Israel these days,...aiii.

Well, good luck with your nation building. You gonna need that.

[Ichhabe]

Can anyone say what the UN ROEs are, when it comes to situation like the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers, or when Hizbollah launch rocket attacks over the border?

Ichabe, perhaps you can share what the ROEs you were operating under for the two situations above?

When I was down there we did not get to work after the UN-resolutuion 425 and 426. ( http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/background.html )

We could not "butt" in when to sides had their clashes. And Israel was recogniced as a country that occupied Southern Lebanon with its rights and dutys under what the geneva-convention said.

And to answer how much the UN cooperate with Hizbollah maybe from the same url as the above you can red this:

The Secretary-General also remained concerned about the restriction of movement on UNIFIL personnel, who must be able to carry out their mandate. In the most serious incident, on 4 April, about 15 Hezbollah personnel forced an Observer Group Lebanon patrol south-west of Kafr Shuba to stop at gunpoint and assaulted the observers with rifle butts, injuring three, one seriously.

But citizen-k will surely say that these are propaganda and lies from the UN.

I cannot remember the ROE we had back in 86-87. But belive me. We were not allowed to shoot back unless our lifes was threatend. The only way to know when that was, were when the first man falled. Sometimes UN-soldiers just had to stand as calmly as possible when bullets passed their head. Or when one side wanted to test the "cowboy-dancing" against them. This was done by all sides, Hizbollah, IDF, SLA or whatever gunnut out there.

But for my concern, this is last years snow or water under the bridge. I mainly have the good memories from that part of the world.

[seventy6er]

Citizen-k is a great example why this hatred and war, these clashes will never find an end. Because you got too many guys like HIM on both sides... Sad but true...

[citizen-k]

Citizen-k is a great example why this hatred and war, these clashes will never find an end. Because you got too many guys like HIM on both sides... Sad but true...

Guys like me?

I was the one protecting the UN soldiers in Lebanon since the IDF is NOT

referring them as enemy. (pointing where shelling is ok and where it's not)

I have REAL friends from Lebanon, so did my father and grandfather -

long before the UN came and my son will have friends years after they

will leave.


UN soldiers DID assist to the kidnappers, they took a film of the act itself -
which they hid from the Israeli government.


UN soldires DID gave shelter to Hizbullah terrorists so they could shell

Israeli cities near their post in KAfar-Kana.


UN soldiers DID expose IDF's units in Lebanon when ever they could in

order to prevent them from stoping Hizbullah attacks on IDF's posts and

Israeli cities.


The question was how did the IDF refer to the UN in Lebanon:


The IDF DID NOT refer the UN as enemy - but also didn't relay on it.

[Chris1]

I tried, I really did not to comment :)
IFOR/SFOR and KFOR are not UN operations.
They are NATO.
Aside from that, you're comments are ludicrous.
I invite you to risk your life for some piece of **** Government trying to wipe out some other piece of **** Government.
UNPROFOR was not a fighting organisation.
It was slapped down in the middle of many different ethnic groups, large elements of which were very keen on ensuring at the end the day, they be the only ethnic group remaining.
They were not given the heavy equipment, the support and the political will to end the war (after all, everyone was making so much money!)
The individual soldiers wanted the same thing the ones posted to IFOR/SFOR and KFOR want, to come back with a head, preferrably two arms and definately two legs.
The sole difference is the politicians involved decided not to just help but to end the war FULL STOP.
It is insulting for you to sit there and say "Oh well the UN peacekeepers are all cowards" because they didn't want to die to stop another nations war.


The "camo helmet" type of peace keeper, like IFOR and KFOR is not. These peacekeepers are willing to fight to truly KEEP the peace.

[Tom.G]

I got a question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers?

[Fargin]

Hey Hood, I think we need an "Israeli/Palestinian Cage Match" forum :cantbeli:

and that's the quadruple truth....

....ruth

[ogukuo72]

I tried, I really did not to comment :)
IFOR/SFOR and KFOR are not UN operations.
They are NATO.
Aside from that, you're comments are ludicrous.
I invite you to risk your life for some piece of **** Government trying to wipe out some other piece of **** Government.
UNPROFOR was not a fighting organisation.
It was slapped down in the middle of many different ethnic groups, large elements of which were very keen on ensuring at the end the day, they be the only ethnic group remaining.
They were not given the heavy equipment, the support and the political will to end the war (after all, everyone was making so much money!)
The individual soldiers wanted the same thing the ones posted to IFOR/SFOR and KFOR want, to come back with a head, preferrably two arms and definately two legs.
The sole difference is the politicians involved decided not to just help but to end the war FULL STOP.
It is insulting for you to sit there and say "Oh well the UN peacekeepers are all cowards" because they didn't want to die to stop another nations war.


The "camo helmet" type of peace keeper, like IFOR and KFOR is not. These peacekeepers are willing to fight to truly KEEP the peace.

Thanks for the correction. But I wasn't refering to IFOR and KFOR as UN operations ... which may be why they succeed where the UN failed. And, yes, I would agree with you that it would be wrong to say that ALL UN peacekeepers are cowards, which is why that was not what I said. Afterall, my own country has peacekeepers in Ethopia and Iraq-Kuwait (not anymore!). :)

The Brits made very good peacekeepers due to their training and NI experience, especially the Marines and the Paras. The French are pretty robust peacekeepers as well - its Foreign Legions are famously tough and professional. The Australians did a pretty decent job in East Timor. The South Africans, when they decided to intervene, are the most effective country in the region when it comes to keeping the peace.

[citizen-k]

I got a question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers?

It's called "Anti-Jewish genes" - most Europeans carry them.

But no need to worry, there arn't many Jews left in Europe due to the

Europians sensitivity for human rights. ;)

By the way, they didn't only help the kidnapping - they also took it

on film but refused to give a copy of it to the Israeli army so it will find

clues about those who kidnapped the soldiers. (And by that protected a

terror organization while committing a terror action against a member of

the UN)

[ArmoredDov_D9]

I got a question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers?

It's called "Anti-Jewish genes" - most Europeans carry them.
But no need to worry, there arn't many Jews left in Europe due to the
Europians sensitivity for human rights. ;)

By the way, they didn't only help the kidnapping - they also took it on film but refused to give a copy of it to the Israeli army so it will find clues about those who kidnapped the soldiers. (And by that protected a terror organization while committing a terror action against a member of the UN)

Don't use the phrase "Anti-Jewish genes" for hatred. Jew-hatred isn't a genetic heritage but a cultural heritage and do not depends on race. Jews haters can be blond "Arian" European as well as Arabs or Persians (Iraqis) and even south-Africans.

As for the rest - I agree with you and must give a thumb up to Desert sloth for his plain but rightful question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers? and add: Why the UN supported those who collaberated with the kidnappers and covered for them?

[citizen-k]

I got a question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers?

It's called "Anti-Jewish genes" - most Europeans carry them.
But no need to worry, there arn't many Jews left in Europe due to the
Europians sensitivity for human rights. ;)

By the way, they didn't only help the kidnapping - they also took it on film but refused to give a copy of it to the Israeli army so it will find clues about those who kidnapped the soldiers. (And by that protected a terror organization while committing a terror action against a member of the UN)

Don't use the phrase "Anti-Jewish genes" for hatred. Jew-hatred isn't a genetic heritage but a cultural heritage and do not depends on race. Jews haters can be blond "Arian" European as well as Arabs or Persians (Iraqis) and even south-Africans.

As for the rest - I agree with you and must give a thumb up to Desert sloth for his plain but rightful question: Why did the UN soldiers HELP Hezbollah Capture those three Israeli soldiers? and add: Why the UN supported those who collaberated with the kidnappers and covered for them?

I ment "cultural genes" been passed between generations.

Although you can probably call the gene responsibly for jealousy the "Anti

Jewish gene"... rofl

[Haiw]

since when is India a part of europe :|

[perdurabo]

C-K genetical hatred to Jews?? ekhm Europe counts reely lots of ppl Poland is a middle country and it's count 37-40mln of ppl Germany is a lot f bigger not mention Ukraine or Russia do you realy think that bilions of ppl hate Jews? we have bigger problems in PL we have demonstrations of Miners (?? -guys who dig out coal i forget word in eng.:)) that ended with shooting and throwing molotovs coctails on police, we have some about 6mln of unemployed, meany familys cant give their children new shoes for winter, Germay has a problem with their economics (less than 1% of growth but i've heard that is going better), they have also big problem with unemplyeed other country's also have their problems,
moust of Europeans don't give a **** about Jews in my whole life i've seen in PL about 20-30 Jews (on my own eyes) and about 15it was a shool trip from Israel, so please don't give me that **** about heatred

[citizen-k]

C-K genetical hatred to Jews?? ekhm Europe counts reely lots of ppl Poland is a middle country and it's count 37-40mln of ppl Germany is a lot f bigger not mention Ukraine or Russia do you realy think that bilions of ppl hate Jews? we have bigger problems in PL we have demonstrations of Miners (?? -guys who dig out coal i forget word in eng.:)) that ended with shooting and throwing molotovs coctails on police, we have some about 6mln of unemployed, meany familys cant give their children new shoes for winter, Germay has a problem with their economics (less than 1% of growth but i've heard that is going better), they have also big problem with unemplyeed other country's also have their problems,
moust of Europeans don't give a **** about Jews in my whole life i've seen in PL about 20-30 Jews (on my own eyes) and about 15it was a shool trip from Israel, so please don't give me that **** about heatred

So why the hell Europeans are so interested in what is going on in the

middle-east?

Human rights? rofl

I don't see any other explanation why someone from Norway, who knows nothing about the middle east (so he says) but still have such a negative point of view about Israel - what makes him have a natural negative point of view?
How can someone from a culture country can justify intend murder of babies? The only place these kind of actions are acceptable by the International community (especially by Europe) is Israel - when the dead babies are Jews.
Got any other logic explanation to that?

[Haiw]

So why the hell Europeans are so interested in what is going on in the

middle-east?

Human rights? rofl

I don't see any other explanation why someone from Norway, who knows nothing about the middle east (so he says) but still have such a negative point of view about Israel - what makes him have a natural negative point of view?
How can someone from a culture country can justify intend murder of babies? The only place these kind of actions are acceptable by the International community (especially by Europe) is Israel - when the dead babies are Jews.
Got any other logic explanation to that?
you give new meaning to the word ignorance...

[citizen-k]

you give new meaning to the word ignorance...

You have a REAL answer?

Maybe you can explain why blowing up a bus with civilians in it is justified

by you?

[perdurabo]

CK
1.moust of ppl arent intrested in eanything else than their asses;-)
2. i'm realy feel bad for any civilian ded in any wars no one death makes me happy! :(
3.after what 50yrs? of war you don't see it's end mayby it's wrong way? htere are allways other way but sometimes you don't see it:)

[Haiw]

So why the hell Europeans are so interested in what is going on in the

middle-east?

Human rights? rofl

I don't see any other explanation why someone from Norway, who knows nothing about the middle east (so he says) but still have such a negative point of view about Israel - what makes him have a natural negative point of view?
How can someone from a culture country can justify intend murder of babies? The only place these kind of actions are acceptable by the International community (especially by Europe) is Israel - when the dead babies are Jews.
Got any other logic explanation to that?

first u start off by slagging Ichabe, and u say he doesnt know jack ****. well this might sound naïve, but he WAS there, and it's kinda HARD to misinterpret hostile actions from the IDF isnt it?!
People here don't have a negative point of view of just Israël, they have it of Palestina as well...where did it say we ACCEPTED murder of babies (by both sides)?! you're playing innocent holocaust victim here, which is something u are NOT in the situation... the main reason people don't really think Israël is 'the big victim' is cus it's shown to be rather reluctant with human rights in the past, has proved to be a bigger pain in the ass on UN resolutions than Iraq, and is always playing the big victim....

(and don't come with a cliché answer again of me supposedly justifying or sympathizing with terrorist attacks...)

[citizen-k]

CK
1.moust of ppl arent intrested in eanything else than their asses;-)
2. i'm realy feel bad for any civilian ded in any wars no one death makes me happy! :(
3.after what 50yrs? of war you don't see it's end mayby it's wrong way? htere are allways other way but sometimes you don't see it:)

Must people here seems to care for every dead terrorist in Gaza, I just wonder why.
We tried - heared of Oslo? (1993)
Dear Mr.Arafat (loved by many people around here) blew the agreement and started this war in a time where 99% of Palestinians were under his government!(which means - not under Israeli occupation)
After 30 years of dealing with this man it is perfectly obvious that peace can't be achieved as long as he is alive. (since in arab nations/countries you CAN'T have a new leader while the current one is still alive)
We are trying to have peace - but European support for terrorist groups who murder civilians is NOT helping!
How about supporting those who want peace on the Palstinian side? those who gave up the idea to destroy Israel and want to live in peace?

On one hand, everyone here have a negative opinion on Israel, but when I ask why - you say "Israel is not on everyones mind" GOOD! If it's not then let us be - don't say "we don't care" and assist terror groups in their actions!

[citizen-k]

So why the hell Europeans are so interested in what is going on in the

middle-east?

Human rights? rofl

I don't see any other explanation why someone from Norway, who knows nothing about the middle east (so he says) but still have such a negative point of view about Israel - what makes him have a natural negative point of view?
How can someone from a culture country can justify intend murder of babies? The only place these kind of actions are acceptable by the International community (especially by Europe) is Israel - when the dead babies are Jews.
Got any other logic explanation to that?

first u start off by slagging Ichabe, and u say he doesnt know jack ****. well this might sound naïve, but he WAS there, and it's kinda HARD to misinterpret hostile actions from the IDF isnt it?!
People here don't have a negative point of view of just Israël, they have it of Palestina as well...where did it say we ACCEPTED murder of babies (by both sides)?! you're playing innocent holocaust victim here, which is something u are NOT in the situation... the main reason people don't really think Israël is 'the big victim' is cus it's shown to be rather reluctant with human rights in the past, has proved to be a bigger pain in the ass on UN resolutions than Iraq, and is always playing the big victim....

(and don't come with a cliché answer again of me supposedly justifying or sympathizing with terrorist attacks...)

As for Lebanon - surprise surprise! I was there too! and not as a field soldier and I know for a FACT the IDF is NOT seeing UN soldiers as enemies.
And when I say "not as a field soldier" don't get me wrong - I was there! (practically everywhere)
I do know for a fact that UN soldiers allowed TERRORISTS to use their post as a shelter (knowing the IDF will be careful shooting near it) so they can bomb Israeli cities from it.

(I won't break "security codes" by posting an aerial photo shows the misslie launch marks 3 meters from the UN post fence in kafar-kana .)

And as for playing the victim: the IDF is NOT knowingly killing civilians - NEVER! dead civilians are a direct result of the Palestinian dirty game of hiding behind kids.
There are worse cases around the world but the UN is clinging to Israel as if thousands of people are murdered here every day.

As a person from the Netherlands I think you should be more concerned about your pedophile neighbours raping woman in Africa and stealing their diamonds then a dead terrorist in Gaza... Don't you think?

[IDFM203]

first u start off by slagging Ichabe, and u say he doesnt know jack ****. well this might sound naïve, but he WAS there, and it's kinda HARD to misinterpret hostile actions from the IDF isnt it?! well citizen-k was also there and the fact that him being an idf soldier himself especially one who served for years in that area, of course it is he who has a better grasp of idf intentions then you are Ichabe ever had. I mean that’s common sense. So while I respect ichabe opinion somewhat, I think when it comes to idf intentions I will base my judgements on those that were there making those decisions.


People here don't have a negative point of view of just Israël, they have it of Palestina as well...where did it say we ACCEPTED murder of babies (by both sides)?! here let me teach you a concept. It is called moral equivalence. In other words it is not moraly equivalent to compare when the idf targets terrorists and accidentally at the same time kills an innocent bystander, with the clear targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do. Simply saying both sides do it is to be a real lack of intellectual honesty and it is truly to be beholden to a very stupid way of thinking.

you're playing innocent holocaust victim here, which is something u are NOT in the situation... first of all in a particular way the situation is the same. I mean the Palestinians still have the exact mindset as Hitler did in their clear intention of wiping out all the Jews. Now no one is crying holocaust victim and just leaving it at that for unlike the holocaust, this time we Jews are actually defending ourselves and fighting back.





the main reason people don't really think Israël is 'the big victim' is cus it's shown to be rather reluctant with human rights in the past, no the propaganda has shown you that. Israel has been very stringent on human rights. Of course killing terrorists and defending ourselves is by your insinuation a human rights violation. I guess with your style of reasoning Israel cant do no right. All I can say is that thank god we have an army to defend ourselves against our enemies that want to see us dead.

has proved to be a bigger pain in the ass on UN resolutions than Iraq I will just repost a copy of what I posted in another thread as a response UN and its clear bias…lets have a look at the UN and the way it treats Israel for a second. Though israel was founded in 1948 — over fifty years ago and at about the same time as many other countries in the wake of World War II — its "legitimacy," its "right to exist," are still being questioned and a topic of constant debate in the UN.
Following the 1967 Six-Day War, the hostility of the United Nations against Israel expanded out of all bounds. Between 1967 and 1988, the UN Security Council passed 88 Resolutions against Israel and the UN General Assembly passed more than 400.
In 1974, Yassir Arafat addressed the General Assembly with a holstered pistol on his hip and received a standing ovation by that body. The hostility against Israel reached its peak in 1975, when the General Assembly passed Resolution 3379 declaring "Zionism as a form of racism." This infamous Resolution remained in effect for sixteen years when, under intense pressure from the United States, it was finally repealed. What is the reason for the collective hostility of the UN against Israel? All of this hostility is based on the very structure of the United Nations. In the General Assembly,130 of the 190 members will always, automatically, vote against Israel. The inner circle of this hatred is the core of twenty Arab nations, which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. Those countries are part of the larger 56-member Muslim group, which can reliably be counted on automatically to join the Arab block in their anti-Israel Resolutions. And those countries are almost always joined by the "non-aligned" group, which are essentially the underdeveloped countries of the world. They have little interest in Israel, but they are united in their hatred of the United States and consider Israel its surrogate. Each country in the General Assembly counts the same. The vote of the United States counts the same as that of, say, Rwanda or the Ivory Coast.
The greatest outrage is that of the 190 members of the UN, Israel, not being a full member of any of the "regional groups," is the only country that cannot be a member of the Security Council, the most important body of the UN. Syria, deservedly classified as a terrorist state, has just been elected to a 2-year term on that Council. Such outlaw countries as Libya, Iran, North Korea, and even Saddam Hussein's Iraq are eligible for membership. Israel is not.
The most virulent center of anti-Israel activities within the UN. The Human Rights Commission (UNHRC) has classified Israel as the principal human rights violator in the world today. Since its inception, about 25% of its Resolutions have condemned Israel. Such egregious human rights violations as those of China in Tibet, or of Russia in Chechnya don't even come to the floor for discussion. The genocide in Rwanda, the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, the horrifying "communal strife" in Indonesia's East Timor, the "disappearance" of a few hundred thousand refugees in the Congo, and the ruthless rampage of the Sudanese Muslims against the Christians are not found worthy of the attention of the Human Rights Commission. Such canards as the "blood libel," that Jews use the blood of Muslims and Christians for the baking of their Passover matzos or of the Israeli injecting Arab children with the AIDS virus are earnestly discussed in that forum.
Much is made of the loss of life in Israel and in the administered territories since the beginning of the so-called "intifada," the civil disobedience campaign by the Palestinians. Every human life is precious, of course. Israel is very much aware of that. But, in view of how long this has been going on, it is remarkable how few people have died, considering the violence and the hatred on the part of the Arabs. The relatively small number of casualties is testimonial to the restraint of the Israeli military and the Israeli government. Who can doubt that the "intifada" could have been suppressed in a few days, had Israel followed the cruel norms of the area in which it is located. Some Arab states conduct wholesale massacres of political opponents as state policy. In 1982, for instance, Syrian president Hafez Assad ordered the killing of over 20,000 civilians in the city of Hama. Iraq routinely executes so many people even for bizarre "offenses" (such as insulting the president) that Amnesty International has given up counting them. Iraq has also recently reached a new low in human rights abuse by killing more than 5,000 of its own Kurdish citizens by poison gas, because they were not thought to be politically reliable. The Democratic Republic of Yemen has periodic mass executions. Even the so-called "moderates" among the Arab states know how to handle civil disobedience "efficiently." Saudi Arabia, where slaves are still being kept and where public amputations for small offenses are the norm, killed over 400 Muslim pilgrims in one bloody day in Mecca in 1987. Egyptian troops killed over 100 people during public riots in 1986. In April of 1989, Algerian government troops opened fire in the city of Souk Ahras against Algerian citizens who were protesting food prices and corruption. 350 people were killed in less than an hour. These are just a few examples of human right violations by Arab governments. All this is besides the Arab countries lack of the most basic elements of human rights — freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free elections, equality for women, freedom of religion, freedom of association. Opponents, instead of facing television cameras, face execution. Those countries do not have to defend themselves against foes who are single-mindedly intent on their destruction.
Finally, there is the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), established in 1949 to assist the Palestinian "refugees". For more than 50 years, UNRWA has funded and administers the so-called "refugee camps" — hotbeds of murderous anti-Israel activity, including the notorious camp in Jenin, which is the source of most of the suicide bombers who have so far killed over six hundred Israeli civilians and wounded thousands more. "Instead of condemning and hating Israel, [the underdeveloped countries] should take it as an example of how to build an advanced, prosperous and competent nation."

With all these facts in mind it is truly a wonder why those Arab nations do not draw the enormous degree of attention and condemnation that Israel receives. I guess after these facts that I presented are understood the only logical conclusion is that the clear bias against the Jewish states and people have never disappeared.




and is always playing the big victim.... all we have ever played is the right to defend ourselves, its that basic human right with which Israel is someone singled out in constantly having to defend.

[Andyman]

just think if Hitler had finished what he started we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we. Look at this Forum its turned into an Israeli propaghanda page its so annoying. All that bullcrap is never gonna end because on both sides we have proud religious difference that can never be solved. I blame religion and I blame the past as in B.C of both those nations. Bucha arrogant morons if you ask me. The road to peace is a flase hope to a greater problem the jews were told that they would never get the promised land for their sins but they choose to ignore that. What a lovely cycle we have in israel. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[IDFM203]

just think if Hitler had finished what he started we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we. Look at this Forum its turned into an Israeli propaghanda page its so annoying.: well now your true colours have shown. I mean I sensed it all along but didn’t yet have the proof.


So I bring up facts and sane arguments to show that Israel has the right to defend itself and that in most cases it is doing just that and all you can counter is that you wish Hitler finished the job. Boy you really integrate to me even more why Israel and the Jewish people need an army to defend ourselves.

Like I said to you before, you telling me that what I am saying is propaganda is so ridicules when faced with the fact that when we Israelis post our opinions, being that most of it is based on what we saw and what we experience (be it in the army or just living there), I guess in your logic it is us who is sprouting propaganda whereas your analyses of what’s going on in Israel while you are sitting on your fat ass in Canada is the truth……I mean you see how redicules you sound?!? And we are the ones sprouting propaganda ..

[IDFM203]

.... rofl rofl

[citizen-k]

just think if Hitler had finished what he started we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we. Look at this Forum its turned into an Israeli propaghanda page its so annoying. All that bullcrap is never gonna end because on both sides we have proud religious difference that can never be solved. I blame religion and I blame the past as in B.C of both those nations. Bucha arrogant morons if you ask me. The road to peace is a flase hope to a greater problem the jews were told that they would never get the promised land for their sins but they choose to ignore that. What a lovely cycle we have in israel. :roll: :roll: :roll:

"the jews were told that they would never get the promised land for their sins"???

rofl

Ok, now we all know who we are dealing with - if the KKK wasn't exist,

you'd be homeless.

Using religious **** to explain why Israel is wrong 2 lines after you say:
"I blame religion and I blame the past as in B.C of both those nations. Bucha arrogant morons if you ask me."

Next time just say "I'm an arrogant moron" - spare us the rest of your BS.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

I ask all the other participents of this discussion to ignore Andyman's flames and unrelated threads. The topic is UN conduct in Lebanon, not his hatred to Jews.

Brief history of that discussion:
Israeli side claims that the UN forces collaborating with Hizbullah and giving terrorists aid and shelter.
Some former UN soldiers here claim the UN forces are neutral, that they don't assisted terrorist and that they were attacked by IDF forces.
There is also the issue of the UN misconduct in the abdaction of the three Israeli soldiers after the pull-out from Lebanon to the UN-set border.

[Tom.G]

[quote=Andyman]

Ok, now we all know who we are dealing with - if the KKK wasn't exist,

you'd be homeless.

Next time just say "I'm an arrogant moron" - spare us the rest of your BS.

Allright, so just because he doesn`t put all the blame on the palistinians meens he`s in the KKK? Are all Israelis this closed minded. You all are full of pure, prime cut american Bull ****. The worst thing Britain ever did was to create Israel. But they didn`t itend it to turn out like it did.

:backhand:

[citizen-k]

Allright, so just because he doesn`t put all the blame on the palistinians meens he`s in the KKK? Are all Israelis this closed minded. You all are full of pure, prime cut american Bull ****. The worst thing Britain ever did was to create Israel. But they didn`t itend it to turn out like it did.

:backhand:

I guess you didn't REALLY read what he wrote, didn't you?

By the way, the british didn't create Israel, the UN did - the British did create Jordan,the Palestinian homeland.

[citizen-k]

It's not nice to quote half posts in order to twist the writers point of view:


Here is my real quote:


"the jews were told that they would never get the promised land for their sins"???



Ok, now we all know who we are dealing with - if the KKK wasn't exist,

you'd be homeless.

Using religious **** to explain why Israel is wrong 2 lines after you say:
"I blame religion and I blame the past as in B.C of both those nations. Bucha arrogant morons if you ask me."

Next time just say "I'm an arrogant moron" - spare us the rest of your BS.




And here is what you quoted:

Ok, now we all know who we are dealing with - if the KKK wasn't exist,

you'd be homeless.

Next time just say "I'm an arrogant moron" - spare us the rest of your BS.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

You are both wrong.
THE JEWS CREATED ISRAEL.

[IDFM203]

Yes ArmourDov is correct. All the UN did was draw a line on a map. That was it.

It was we Jews who stood there while all the Arab countries attacked and it was we who responded and defeated this attacking army. It was through this defeat of the Arabs in a defensive war , that modern Israel was created.

[Haiw]

As for Lebanon - surprise surprise! I was there too! and not as a field soldier and I know for a FACT the IDF is NOT seeing UN soldiers as enemies.
And when I say "not as a field soldier" don't get me wrong - I was there! (practically everywhere)
u were there years later than Ichabe tho, and things often change a lot. And still, even tho the general IDF policy can consider UN as 'friendlies', ur reactions clearly show that individuals have their own thoughts, and might have actions according to that...

I do know for a fact that UN soldiers allowed TERRORISTS to use their post as a shelter (knowing the IDF will be careful shooting near it) so they can bomb Israeli cities from it.

(I won't break "security codes" by posting an aerial photo shows the misslie launch marks 3 meters from the UN post fence in kafar-kana .)

u cant blame the soldiers for that; only stupid UN regulations...they simply CANT DO ANYTHING against that...they cud only respond when THEY were shot at...so when some1 launches an rpg 3 meters from their fence, THEY CANT HELP IT! and for the sheltering; A; did they know the guys there were sheltering were hezbollah? B, even if they did, cud they do anything against it? (UN regulations again...)
The same goes for the kidnapping case (which is still just one single incident, even if the UN soldiers helped the kidnappers...)

And as for playing the victim: the IDF is NOT knowingly killing civilians - NEVER! dead civilians are a direct result of the Palestinian dirty game of hiding behind kids.
aaah so all those thousands were all shot with a terrorist hiding behind em? :roll: gimme a break... u know better

There are worse cases around the world but the UN is clinging to Israel as if thousands of people are murdered here every day.
maybe cus the 'israel conflict' has been going on for over 50 years now?
(if u ask me, yea they shud 'fix' all conflicts, dictators and oppressions all over the world, but thats never gunna happen...)

As a person from the Netherlands I think you should be more concerned about your pedophile neighbours raping woman in Africa and stealing their diamonds then a dead terrorist in Gaza... Don't you think?
wtf?!

[Haiw]

but this is a rather useless discussion; all Israëlis here are all nationalists who believe their country never does anything wrong, and blame everyone on other countries or other organisations...its like convincing KKK-man to love ******s....

actually, this kinda behaviour from both sides is the big reason why this conflict is still going on; none of them is really thinking of actually stopping violence, both blame only the other, and all have lost even the slightest skill in looking at this from a less subjective point of view...

something tells me that the way this is going this conflict will still be alive and kicking when i breathe my last breath...

[IDFM203]

but this is a rather useless discussion; all Israëlis here are all nationalists while we might be nationalists in always believing in what we have seen and what we experienced, at the same token it is you who is nationalist in your belief and your insinuations, that all that we have seen and experienced and know is false.

who believe their country never does anything wrong that’s false again. Yes we do realise that we are not perfect and that we do are in fact wrong on occasions, we just don’t think that we are wrong most of the time as you have clearly insinuated.

No, like I have said before. I am just not going to accept the false insinuations that Israel is committing war crimes and human rights violations when the reality is that it is not. Israel is not perfect and it does a times make mistake. hell that could be applied to every country. Every country in the world makes mistakes, if not even more. No, in most cases Israel is defending themselves against these attackers that no matter what is offered to them will fight till they see all Jews into the sea. Israel has the moral right to defend themselves. Period!!! And I repeat...there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….


and blame everyone on other countries or other organisations.. ... well it sure as hell isn’t Israelis blowing up innocent civilians with the tactical and financial support of most Arab countries and some European countries as well. Yes blame can in fact be spoken of.

.its like convincing KKK-man to love ******s.... ... wow I dint realise that someone from the “land of cheese and windmills” (Switzerland?!?) Can make such a classless remark.

Now speaking of your example, we aren’t asking you to love us. No, just recognise that we have the right to defend ourselves and that in most cases that is exactly what we are doing. Those are the true facts not the propaganda ones that ”you have heard somewhere” or “read somewhere”

actually, this kinda behaviour from both sides is the big reason why this conflict is still going on; none of them is really thinking of actually stopping violence, both blame only the other, and all have lost even the slightest skill in looking at this from a less subjective point of view...

.. ………and again the simple and trivual both sides argument blah blah blah….. Listen Israel tried to make peace and it was rejected. Israel has every right to exist. We are now past any blame for the reality is that Israel is in a war that is being fought from the Palestinians (who in fact started this war and have perpetrated it). The second the whole society renounces terrorism (not like in the past of where it was a false denounciation) and actually stops it and not just the token amounts of time like in the past, but a real stop then there will be peace. Blame whomever you want but that is the factual reality.

[citizen-k]

u were there years later than Ichabe tho, and things often change a lot. And still, even tho the general IDF policy can consider UN as 'friendlies', ur reactions clearly show that individuals have their own thoughts, and might have actions according to that...




The "reaction" was a smoke granade if I'm not wrong...while UN soldiers defended "innocent" Lebanonians. (we aill never know how innocent they really were - and I wonder what happen to UN regulations of "not getting in the way")


u cant blame the soldiers for that; only stupid UN regulations...they simply CANT DO ANYTHING against that...they cud only respond when THEY were shot at...so when some1 launches an rpg 3 meters from their fence, THEY CANT HELP IT! and for the sheltering; A; did they know the guys there were sheltering were hezbollah? B, even if they did, cud they do anything against it? (UN regulations again...)
The same goes for the kidnapping case (which is still just one single incident, even if the UN soldiers helped the kidnappers...)


A; They couldn't have known - those guys might be little green man from Mars, couldn't they?

B; They could have - just like they did in Ichabe case (get in their way)
They knew those guys (who probably came from Mars) are putting them and the people in the post in danger - but yet they failed to stop them. (not mentioning the civilians who got hit from their bombs)

This single case was a long lasting case starting with the UN car used for the kidnapping itself, the soldiers who did nothing and ended with the UN chief general, Cloud Monkey, who refused to hand over the tape they took. (which was taken "by accident" and the existence of it was hidden from the Israeli government)


aaah so all those thousands were all shot with a terrorist hiding behind em? :roll: gimme a break... u know better



thousands? what THOUSANDS? 700 Israeli CIVILIANS were killed in the last 2 years inside Israeli cities! ALL OF THEM WERE TARGETED AS CIVILIANS, IN ORDER TO MURDER CIVILIANS!

Please look in the media for one case where the IDF shot a civilian knowingly he is a civilian with an intention to kill him.


maybe cus the 'israel conflict' has been going on for over 50 years now?
(if u ask me, yea they shud 'fix' all conflicts, dictators and oppressions all over the world, but thats never gunna happen...)


50 years? Your history knowledge is POOR!
The Palestinian "nation" wasn't exist before 1967!!!
Did you know that those territories are Jordanins conquered lands?
Did you know that Jordan is, in fact, the homeland of arabic palestinians?
Did you know Arafat IS NOT EVEN A PALESTINIAN? (The f*** was born in Egypt)


wtf?!

Belgium rofl

[Haiw]

while we might be nationalists in always believing in what we have seen and what we experienced, at the same token it is you who is nationalist in your belief and your insinuations, that all that we have seen and experienced and know is false.
how could i be nationalistic ?! i'm from the netherlands, my country aint got jack **** to do with the entire conflict...i'm not saying all u've seen and experienced is false, i'm just saying its COLOURED...(a lot)

that’s false again. Yes we do realise that we are not perfect and that we do are in fact wrong on occasions, we just don’t think that we are wrong most of the time as you have clearly insinuated.
if both sides woudnt make mistakes all the time the conflict wud already have been over...

well it sure as hell isn’t Israelis blowing up innocent civilians with the tactical and financial support of most Arab countries and some European countries as well. Yes blame can in fact be spoken of.
yea and who is targetting there leaders, bulldozering their houses, invading their refugee camps? have u forgotten what triggered the last intifada?

wow I dint realise that someone from the “land of cheese and windmills” (Switzerland?!?) Can make such a classless remark.
it might not be the most political correct way to put it, but we're not here for formality (all black - or otherwise darker coloured people, accept my apologies, i have no rascist feelings or what so ever :hug: ) besides i'm from the netherlands, ever seen windmills in switzerland? :D

Now speaking of your example, we aren’t asking you to love us. No, just recognise that we have the right to defend ourselves and that in most cases that is exactly what we are doing. Those are the true facts not the propaganda ones that ”you have heard somewhere” or “read somewhere”
theres a difference between true facts and coloured facts u know.