155mm shell against an MBT

[Pancake_Skunk]

How would a 155mm HE artillery shell do against an MBT fired from a distance of 1500m? My guess is that a hit in the front would shake the tank and blow off stuff from the hull, but no real damage done, a hit to the side basically the same thing, only a hit to the enginedepartment in the back would have a chance of doing some real damage to an MBT.

[Imshi-Yallah]

I wouldnt volunteer to sit in that tank.
I reckon a 155 HE direct hit would be pretty much curtains, even if it couldnt penetrated it would be flipped or at least the crew would be crushed by the inertia.

[Pancake_Skunk]

No, of course it would be quite unpleasant for the crew and they would probably be quite seriously injured, but would it kill the tank?

[Poontang_Dan]

That greatly depends on the contact detonator type. Secondly, HE arty shell isn't designed to fragment forward.

[AVZ]

But it's gonna exploding and will make a BIG BANG!!!!

It will kill the tank.

[Poontang_Dan]

Well the thing is, I don't think it will.

[von_Moo142]

Here's a (two page) article that google turned up on this.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAU/is_5_7/ai_97722805


Anyway, even if arty doesn't kill tanks, it will still mission kill them by knocking stuff off the outside and damaging sensitive internal stuff. Look at the effects of IED arty shells detonated near M1s in Iraq for examples of this.

I would think that a point detonating 155mm HE shell hitting the top armour would kill a tank though.

[Steve Andrews]

I think it would make your ears ring..

[FDF_Hemppis]

I think it would make your ears ring..

Or bleed more likely ;)

[Scrim]

Like the article said, a direct hit will destroy a tank, no doubt.
Achieving a direct hit however, is another thing entirely.(unless using Copperhead laser guided rounds.)
Ive had the pleasure of participating in a "Killer Junior" exersise, which is a last resort for the Artillery Battery against advancing enemy forces. The whole Battery lowers their tubes parallel with the deck, and fires on targets using manual sights. The targets were old tanks and vehicles 500 to a 1000 metres away. I can tell you that anything that got hit, flew up about 100 metres into the air in about a thousand pieces. One of the most motivating exersises Ive ever seen!!

[GrimReaper]

The article speaks of M48, I suggest you think about the armor levels of it and compare them to a modern tank. A fuzed 155 HE shell, that lands even directly on top of a fourth generation tank will not kill it.

[TarwarWarrior]

I just finished asking my Warrant about this question. He served in the Infantry (6 yrs), artillery (12 yrs), and now is a clerk. Here's what the had to say:

A normal airburst will pretty much do SFA to any tank. If the round lands close then you run the risk of damaging some of the external sensors and equipment, you may even throw a track. Real close and the tank may flip. The crew inside will have there bells rung but the chances of having a casualty are low. Anything aside from a direct hit at elevation 0 or having the round punch through the turret's top, and it will be fine.

If you get a direct hit on the front of the tank from a direct fire mission, then the tank will pretty much be gone. You could blow a turret off completely or the concussion will kill / wound everyone inside. But he even admits that with the latest generation of armour (specifically the M1A1's and '2's) then even that may not stop it...

-TW, out!-

[von_Moo142]

Thanks for the info TarwarWarrior!

Edit: And Scrim (sorry, missed your post...)!

[Marmot1]

Test Results. The first test was conducted in 1988. Researchers confirmed that the US 155-mm HE round was a reasonable surrogate for the Soviet 152-mm HE round. An M109 155-mm howitzer battery using Soviet fire direction and gun procedures fired the test. The targets were manikins placed in fighting positions, US trucks, Ml 13 and M557 armored vehicles, and M-48 tanks. Several different computer models were used to predict results. The test was fired three times using 56 HE rounds with point-detonating (PD) and variable-time (VT) fuzes.

The resulting effects on the trucks and personnel were close to model predictions. However, the effects on the armored vehicles and tanks were significantly higher than model predictions.

The model predicted 30 percent damage to armored vehicles and tanks; however, 67 percent damage was achieved. Fragmentation from the HE rounds penetrated the armored vehicles, destroying critical components and injuring the manikin crews. (See an example of such damage in Figure 1.) In addition, the HE fragmentation damaged tracks, road wheels, and tank main gun sights and set one vehicle on fire.

Interestingly enough, none of the damage to the armored vehicles or tanks was the result of direct hits-all the damage was caused by near hits.

This test confirmed that US Army models did not accurately portray artillery effectiveness. Direct hits were not required to damage tanks and other armored targets.

Hmm very interesting....

BTW Poland is creating now new 155 an 152mm amunition that contains several subamunition modules.. every of them is capable of penetrating over120mm (ca.4,5 innch) RHA (armour)... enaught to penetrate tank top armour....

[Imshi-Yallah]

It doesnt matter one little bit if the armour cant be penetrated, the crew and the mission systems will be smashed to pieces one way or another, its equivalent to dropping an MBT off a height.

[seventy6er]

German SMArt artillery ammunition (http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=2180)

[caleb]

German SMArt artillery ammunition (http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=2180)

Sounds interresting, thx for the info seventy6er.

[ValkXB70]

Got any images of that exercise? That would be a sight to see 155's shooting flat.....

[Pancake_Skunk]

German SMArt artillery ammunition (http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=2180)

You dont fire those in direct fire mode, that would be a quite large waste of money as it would just "bounce" of the tank.

[GazB]

The standard direct fire 152mm Soviet artillery round is APHE and weighs about 43kg. It will not penetrate the armour of any Modern MBT but might blow the turret off or at least shift it far enough on its bearings so that it will no longer rotate. It will also most likely shatter any optics or aerials or other external equipment.

The standard anti armour round would however be one of the wide range of laser guided top attack weapons with warheads in the 20-30kg HE range. These would easily penetrate and destroy any modern MBT with a turret hit.

[RS_Leo1A5]

I remember reading an article once (several years ago so the details are a bit fuzzy) about a direct-fire testing of the PzH2000.
Distance about 1000m (probably more), target was an old tank (either a Leopard 1 or a T-something).
The target tank was hit from the side with impressive results:
The turret was blown off and flew away several dozen (or even 100) meters, the hull was flipped several times.

[Poontang_Dan]

...with a turret hit.

Turret has the thickest armor. It's the hardest to defeat in my understanding.

[crazyman]

ok heres' my thoughts on this one. a standard 155mm HE shell would most likely not kill a tank if it hit from the front. a direct hit or even a close hit would certainly mess with electronics, treads, turret bearings, etc...but it would take a lot of luck for a fragment to go through the front armor. the shell isnt designed for armored vehicles. usually in FA we use DPICM projectiles for armor. this is a timed detonating shell that showers an area with a combo of grenade and anti armor sub-munitions. the armor ones are basically small shaped charges that will blast right through the top armor of any tank out there. we also have a fun lil toy we call copperhead. its basically an artillery-launched laser guided projectile, designed for "high value targets". once the round has flown a certain distance a seeker head turns on and finds a specific laser code transmitted by the FO. boom, goodbye tank

[OldRecon]

This thread reminds me about pictures of Panther tanks turned turtle by the preparatory air bombardment of Operation Cobra (Breakout from Normandy during WW-2). As for artillery bombardment the British Centurion tanks employed during the Korean war endured quite a lot of mortar and artillery shelling and came out of it surprisingly well.
One measure taken to limit the potential for damage to the tanks, was to build sandbag pens in each fire position used by the Centurions, that fitted tightly around the hull of the tank as protection for the tank suspension.
All in all I think the Brits only lost 3 Centurions during that war. 2 of them in the 3rd communist offensive launched in 1951 with it's battles on the Injin sector (Gloster's last stand and all that).
Some of the books/articles written by George Forty should have more specific information about this than "my loose threads" given here.

[GazB]

Turret has the thickest armor. It's the hardest to defeat in my understanding.

The turret front does indeed usually have the thickest armour on the tank, but the sides and rear of the turret are usually much less wel protected.

Also, what I was referring to was that a powerful (kinetic) impact on the turret side can move the turret and knock it off its race. This will stop the turret from turning or may even blow the turret off the vehicle.

[crazyman]

its a nice thought...but if i see a tank, HE is my last thought. i'll take ICM any day of the week, thanks...afterall i wanna KILL the tank, not give it a headache