A story from Jerusalem

[hendrix33]

I don't usually do this, but i've just seen something on the local news that made me shiver.

http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/03072003/292284/nava_oa.jpghttp://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/03072003/292166/P2_a.jpg
(ynet)

On the left, Nava Applebaum (20), on the right, Dr. David Applebaum (50), her father.

Dr. David Applebaum was the director of the Emergency Room of 'Sha`are Zedek' (Gates of Justice) Hospital in the capital Jerusalem.

His daughter, Nava, was supposed to be married today. I've seen the supposed groom not being able to read the eulogy he'd wrote to his wife. Instead of putting the ring he bought her on her finger tonight at their wedding, the ring was burried with the bride.
This followed an interview of the bride's friend who recalled shopping together for her wedding dress last week. Nava was burried with her father David today in Jerusalem.

I don't know about you guys, but this makes my skin crawl.

May they rest in peace, and may peace come to us all.

[StarvingStudent47]

Powerful stuff. I hope you don't mind if I've quoted this in other forums I frequent? I've provided your name as author and a link back to this thread.

[hendrix33]

You are more than welcome to take this anywhere you want. Mentioning my name is irrelevant. All I did was translating articles from the local media.

Don't you guys wonder how these stories never get to CNN?
Probably 'ruin their objectivity', eh?

[StarvingStudent47]

You are more than welcome to take this anywhere you want. Mentioning my name is irrelevant. All I did was translating articles from the local media.

Don't you guys wonder how these stories never get to CNN?
Probably 'ruin their objectivity', eh?

Actually, CNN mainly just doesn't give a rat's arse about non-Americans dying, as far as I can tell. Several of my friends are from India, and they complain (quite justly) that CNN often doesn't even mention it when Indians are killed in terrorist attacks (even the huge attack in Mumbai that killed ~50 didn't get mentioned on CNN TV, and didn't make a front headline on CNN.com). What's sad is, CNN is better than most other news sources.

But I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion of media sources. So enough about that. This is a really tragic story that helps make sure that these numbers of casualties still have a human face.

[hendrix33]

Well, I have a lot to say about CNN and objectiveness, but this is not the place.

Just read another story.

http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/03072003/292159/alon_a.jpg
(ynet)

Alon Mizrachi, 22.

Alon was the security guard (civilian) at Cafe Hillel. Alon has recently finished his three years of service, as a mechanic in IAF. When Alon finished his service, he had a hard time standing on his feet finnancialy, due to the severe economic situation in Israel. Therefore he took a job as a security guard, and was employed in the Cafe for three months.

Michal, Alon's girlfriend for over two years told reporters Alon wanted to open his own Pub, and dreamt of being a buisnessman.

Alon has left behind two parents, and three brothers and sisters. He was burried this afternoon in Jerusalem.


Damn. The papers are filled with these stories. I can't gather the strengh to translate more at the moment. Too hard. I'll continue tommorow.

[fisheyestudio]

Hey howdy hey!

Fox news just did a report on the first story that you posted about. Very sad indeed.

It is so overwhealming to see that God died even for the very people who would commit such acts.

Know that you are in our prayers.
Jesus blessings
chris holloman

[hendrix33]

Well, I've justed read an article in Ha'aretz and learnt a few more facts that gave me shivers.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P110903/a.0.1109.2.2.9.jpghttp://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P110903/a.0.1109.2.1.9.jpg

On the left are the late father and daughter, on the right is the intended groom at the funeral that took place on his wedding day.

Nava has met her fiancè three years ago, in highschool, and got engaged half a year ago. The wedding invitations which were mailled a month ago ended with the verse "With Praise and Gratitue to The Creator of Man For All His Good and Mercy".
Hannan, the supposed groom had spent the last couple of days decorating and filling their new appartment for flowers, to surprise his bride on their wedding night.

Rabbi Sapiro spoke at Dr. Applebaum's funeral: "The Great Lord, Has given man the ability to cry, to hurt, and to mourn, but sometimes the pain and loss are so deep, until the human soul, that is accustomed to rationnalization, refuses to accept what had occured. David was a leader, a gifted doctor, a man who knew how to speak to a patient, to a son, to his wife."
When reffering to David's grandsons, the Rabbi continued: "Dear children, We cannot explain the death of the children in the bus three weeks ago, just as we cannot explain the Holocaust, and as we cannot explain what had happened yesterday. But keep in mind that the entire education given to you by your father was meant for a moment like this."
"We are in a war. Unfortunately, in a war children grow up fast".

May the surviving families find the power to move on.

[cut]

it's a real shame the day before she got married too..
although I don't suppose you could post pics of deceased palestinians?
because if anyone writes anything about just the palestinian side it's deemed anti-semitic or at least anti-israeli.

[Trident-za]

although I don't suppose you could post pics of deceased palestinians?


This is a good point.... I'd like to point out, however, that this rationale applies to ALL conflicts/terorist attacks etc etc, including Afghanistan/Iraq/September 11.....

I'm not disagreeing with you, but we need to see both sides of the story in all conflicts, not just the Israeli situation....

[hendrix33]

it's a real shame the day before she got married too..
although I don't suppose you could post pics of deceased palestinians?
because if anyone writes anything about just the palestinian side it's deemed anti-semitic or at least anti-israeli.


My friend, I did not make any political comment. All I did was translating facts from the newspaper. I try to seperate politics from this.

Death is a terrible thing, no matter where it happens, Gaza, Baghdad, Kabul or anywhere else.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

It is natural Hendrix33 will bring a story of the terror victims - he is after all, Israeli, and he access to the local press.

If there were here Palestinian, they would bring us story of their deaths - ignoring completely from the Israeli victims.

By the way, that is not true we ignored from Palestinian deaths. Do you want to know the story behind Ahmed Bader's death? >:->

[hendrix33]

The Applebaums story has made it to BBC news.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3099638.stm




Suicide attack claims top Israeli doctor


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39324000/jpg/_39324814_applebaums_ap203body.jpg
Dr Applebaum was a leading expert in the treatment of bomb victims


Tributes have been pouring in for an eminent Israeli doctor who died alongside his daughter in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem on Tuesday.
Dr David Applebaum was one of the world's leading experts in the treatment of casualties of such attacks as the one that killed him.

In a cruel twist of fate, Dr Applebaum's 20-year-old daughter, Naava, also died in the blast in Cafe Hillel a day before she was due to get married.

Grief-stricken family and friends joined scores of mourners at the Applebaums' funerals on what should have been Naava's wedding day.

Staff in tears

As the head of the Emergency Room at Jerusalem's Shaare Tzedek Hospital, Dr Applebaum led a team all too familiar with dealing with victims of suicide bombings.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39324000/jpg/_39324816_funeral_ap203body.jpg
The Applebaums were buried on what should have been Naava's wedding day

When he failed to show up at the hospital after Tuesday night's attack, colleagues feared the worst.

"He was always the first to arrive after a terrorist attack. Once he even came in his pyjamas," said chief nurse Margalit Farchi.

When it became known that Dr Applebaum was among the victims, "staff members continued to work, but were unable to hold back their tears", Shaare Tzedek Hospital said.

"He changed the face of this department, and at the same time he was an amazing human being. As soon as he arrived each day, he would go around wishing everyone good morning - staff members and patients alike," said nurse Simcha Hacohen.

"I feel as if we've been orphaned."

'God's emissary'

Ironically, Dr Applebaum had just returned from New York, where he had lectured on how to deal with the mass casualties that can be caused by a suicide bombing.

As well as being an expert in trauma care, Dr Applebaum, who was in his early fifties, was an ordained rabbi and lecturer in Jewish law.

In 1986, the Israeli parliament presented him with an award for treating victims of a bomb attack while coming under fire.

Shaare Tzedek Hospital director, Yonatan Halevy, said: "There are thousands of citizens of Jerusalem who owe their lives to Dr Applebaum.

"This is a very heavy loss for this city."

A former Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yisrael Meir Lau, said Dr Applebaum was "one of God's emissaries".

"His mission has been cruelly ended," he said.

One of Dr Applebaum's five children, Natan, said of his father: "His whole life was dedicated to saving lives.

"Instead of preparations for a wedding, we made preparations for a funeral."

[StarvingStudent47]

although I don't suppose you could post pics of deceased palestinians?


Pictures of Palestinians on this forum (largely posted by He219, but posted by others as well) far outnumber pictures of Israeli victims of terrorism. You say there needs to be more balance, but this IS the balance.

[He219]

Since you are singling me out, your statement certainly does not address Israeli Pictures (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3627) I post. You choose to see only what you want.

:roll:

Oh, and if you have not noticed, The DEATH TOLL related to Palestinian civilian victims FAR OUTNUMBERS that of the Israelis statistically.

There is another side you wish not to aknowledge.

[StarvingStudent47]

Since you are singling me out, your statement certainly does not address Israeli Pictures (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3627) I post. You choose to see only what you want.

:roll:

Oh, and if you have not noticed, The DEATH TOLL related to Palestinian civilian victims FAR OUTNUMBERS that of the Israelis statistically.

There is another side you wish not to aknowledge.

First off, you've got to admit that regardless of content, you probably post more pictures in the "general discussion" forum than all other posters combined. THAT is the first and foremost reason why I singled you out. Pictures are nice, unless you're on a 56k modem, and it takes five or more minutes for a thread to load.

As for you saying that I'm blind to Palestinian casualties and me saying that your selection of images shows a very biased view of the conflict...we've been down that road before and I don't think either of us is going to say anything new this time around. And the selection of photos that you posted in that thread sure doesn't change my mind.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Since you are singling me out, your statement certainly does not address Israeli Pictures I post. You choose to see only what you want.

Oh, and if you have not noticed, The DEATH TOLL related to Palestinian civilian victims FAR OUTNUMBERS that of the Israelis statistically.

There is another side you wish not to aknowledge.

Israeli non-combatants killed by Palestinians: 635.
Israeli combatants killed by Palestinians: 167.
Palestinians non-combatants killed by Israel: 874.
Palestinian combarants killed by Israel: 1091.
Palestinian killed by their own side actions: 303.

Source: http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

So think again about the FAR OUTNUMBERS part.
And as for pictures - if I wanted I can posted here a lot more pictures of the dreadful results of Palestinian terrorism. Some contain hard graphic contain. Some contain blood. Some picture are documenting Palestinian manslaughter (lynch - a practice where Palestinian mob grab a victims and slaughter him while he's still alive. after that torture him and corrupts his body, children stab him with a dagger and then the poor victim is hanged for everyone to see. You DON'T want to see that. You'll puke).

[Haiw]

what is the israeli definition of combatant....a 12-year-old throwing a stone?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Combatant - a person which was (or is) involved in violent act which may endanger the life or the complete form of another human being (i.e. kill or cause serious injury).


That's are the figures. And they prove Israel's Purity of Arms. We seek only to stop the terrorists. It is not easy when they hide among civilian population and use them as "human-shield".

http://hydepark.co.il/hydepark/upload01/030913_005805-2004_human-shield06.jpg
Notice the little child with the pistol. Palestinian terrorist hang around with children near them in order to prevent IDF to shoot on them.

http://hydepark.co.il/hydepark/upload01/030913_005948-2008_human-shield01.jpg
A rare picture documenting how Palestinian children are sent to the firelines for propoganda purposes. Notice the two children in front of the Palestinian gunmen, and not behind, as every normal child would be.

[Ratamacue]

Yeah...me too...

[Sabre]

I think, as usual, we've gone off the topic.

The thread is about the victims, whoever they are. Leave the military/militia side to the many other threads on those subjects.

Any death is a tragedy. I just hope that ordinary people on both sides are able to do more soon, break the cycle and build bridges.

[California Joe]

The man was a doctor, he didn't hurt anyone. His daughter was also an innocent victim. Quite sad. On the Palestinian side, if some asshead comes to my house and tells me they need my 11 year old daughter and 8 year old son to go throw rocks at Israeli troopers while they snipe at them from behind a wall he gets a bullet from ME not the Israelis.

[hendrix33]

Hey, folks I've got a request. I'm more than interested in disscussing the value of purity of arms in IDF, and terrorism, but I've opened this thread to tell a story of a slaughtered family.

Let's resperct the memory of the dead, and not comment on such issues on this thread. You're most invited to open a new thread on these topics.

[California Joe]

I agree with your request, however this is the internet and your request is about as possible as herding cats so don't get mental when everyone writes whatever the hell they want in your thread. And please don't act like a pussy if people end up disagreeing with you. It happens.

[hendrix33]

I agree with your request, however this is the internet and your request is about as possible as herding cats so don't get mental when everyone writes whatever the hell they want in your thread. And please don't act like a pussy if people end up disagreeing with you. It happens.

Possible? Maybe not. I reffered to the users with the common sense and dignity to respect the memory of a dead family. Whoever chooses to ignore the request - his problem.

Where did you see me go mental?

[Aussie2093]

It's just a shame that dead Israelis have more value in the world forum (especially the media) than dead Palestinians. Lets not get all worked up over sides or senseless viewpoints, the fact is that alot of people are dying from this ~conflict~ on both sides. Pointing out individual cases of victims is like taking a defendable go at propaganda. The fact that this fiancee story, alone, made it to Fox News who aired it, alone, proves that some work is being done to build up sides. Innocent Palestinians aren't killed by name, they're killed by number. 99% of the time we hear about Palestinian deaths, it's concerning the assassination (or attempted assassination) of key targets, but if you look at the numbers, there is another battle going on under the eyes of the western mass media, if you can call it a battle... Wake up people, the Israelis arent innocent, nor are they solely guilty, but dammit look at the facts rather than the emotions.

[Haiw]

It's just a shame that dead Israelis have more value in the world forum (especially the media) than dead Palestinians. Lets not get all worked up over sides or senseless viewpoints, the fact is that alot of people are dying from this ~conflict~ on both sides. Pointing out individual cases of victims is like taking a defendable go at propaganda. The fact that this fiancee story, alone, made it to Fox News who aired it, alone, proves that some work is being done to build up sides. Innocent Palestinians aren't killed by name, they're killed by number. 99% of the time we hear about Palestinian deaths, it's concerning the assassination (or attempted assassination) of key targets, but if you look at the numbers, there is another battle going on under the eyes of the western mass media, if you can call it a battle... Wake up people, the Israelis arent innocent, nor are they solely guilty, but dammit look at the facts rather than the emotions.

he's got a point...

[citizen-k]

It's just a shame that dead Israelis have more value in the world forum (especially the media) than dead Palestinians. Lets not get all worked up over sides or senseless viewpoints, the fact is that alot of people are dying from this ~conflict~ on both sides. Pointing out individual cases of victims is like taking a defendable go at propaganda. The fact that this fiancee story, alone, made it to Fox News who aired it, alone, proves that some work is being done to build up sides. Innocent Palestinians aren't killed by name, they're killed by number. 99% of the time we hear about Palestinian deaths, it's concerning the assassination (or attempted assassination) of key targets, but if you look at the numbers, there is another battle going on under the eyes of the western mass media, if you can call it a battle... Wake up people, the Israelis arent innocent, nor are they solely guilty, but dammit look at the facts rather than the emotions.

Give me one name of those who died in the wedding at Afghanistan which was bombed by the US.
Or better yet, one name of a dead Iraqi civilian/soldier?
Do you know a name of a dead person from Africa killed by the Franch/Belgiunes? a dead chechnian warrior maybe?

This war started because Palestinians have a sick leader who gives a **** about them, their names or their deaths - why should the world care?

[He219]

Since you are singling me out, your statement certainly does not address Israeli Pictures I post. You choose to see only what you want.

Oh, and if you have not noticed, The DEATH TOLL related to Palestinian civilian victims FAR OUTNUMBERS that of the Israelis statistically.

There is another side you wish not to aknowledge.

Israeli non-combatants killed by Palestinians: 635.
Israeli combatants killed by Palestinians: 167.
Palestinians non-combatants killed by Israel: 874.
Palestinian combarants killed by Israel: 1091.
Palestinian killed by their own side actions: 303.

Source: http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

So think again about the FAR OUTNUMBERS

Just as Haiw said, does your interpretation of a combatant also include 'a child throwing a stone' in disent to military occupation? Your source, ict.org.il, with a tiltle of 'An Engineered Tragedy', seems hardly unbiased.
;)

Lets look at another source, say Shin Bet itself as quoted through Ha'aretz, unless the Sharon cheerleaders find that also to be a leftwing terrorist supporting organization:


What the fatality statistics tell us
By Amira Hass

Against the background of shock and disgust at the
mass terror attack on the Jerusalem bus on August
19, and the fear of advanced Qassam rocket
attacks, the government of Israel energetically
renewed its policy of targeted killings. From
August 21 through yesterday, September 1, Air
Force fighters killed 11 Hamas activists in six
targeted assassinations in crowded central
locations. Four other Palestinians were killed in
those actions, among them a young girl and an old
man, and dozens were injured. The threatened
revenge attack has not occurred. Is this not proof
that targeted killings are the way to go?

That might have been the
conclusion in December 2000 as
well, after the first three
targeted killings that Israel
carried out the previous month.
At the end of September and
October 2000, the Palestinians
killed 11 Israelis in the
territories, five of whom were
security personnel, according
to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for
Human Rights. In November, 22 Israelis were
killed, 18 in the territories, 11 of whom were
security personnel, and four in Israel proper.
In December, the Palestinians killed eight
Israelis in the territories, five of whom were
civilians and three were security personnel. No
Israelis were killed in Israel proper in
December. This could be seen as a direct result
of the pressure brought to bear by the series
of six targeted killings that same month.

However in February 2001 the ratio between those
killed in the territories and those killed in
Israel changed: four Israelis were killed in
the territories, among them one soldier, and
eight in Israel, run down by a bus driver from
Gaza. In March 2001, two Israelis were killed
in the territories and eight in Israel, among
them three in the first deadly suicide bombing,
which took place on March 4.

From that point on, the Hamas and the Islamic
Jihad have been competing with each other to
see who could carry out the most deadly suicide
attack in Israel. In October 2001, Fatah, which
until that time had concentrated mostly on
shooting attacks in the territories, joined the
competition. The more Israel pursued its policy
of targeted killings, the more the members of
all the terror organizations competed with each
other in attacks on Israel.

The Palestinians also counted their dead: 115 in
September-October 2000 (the majority of whom
were killed during demonstrations, and among
whom were 32 children killed by IDF fire), 109
in November 2000, 48 in December 2000, 18 in
January 2001, and 20 in February. It is
convenient to think that most of those killed
were armed terrorists, and that Israel's
policy, a strong preemptive strike to prevent
deterioration, had proven itself.

But it turned out that according to calculations
of the Shin Bet and by its own definitions, of
the 2,341 Palestinians who were killed up to
the beginning of August this year, 551 were
terrorists, "that is, bearing arms and
explosives" (Ze'ev Schiff, Haaretz, August 8,
2003). To those who wonder who the other
victims were, whether they were suspects, or
civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time
- here is a partial answer: Until the end of
August this year, IDF soldiers killed 391
minors, according to B'Tselem. According to the
Red Crescent, the IDF killed 141 women.
B'Tselem determined that 291 Palestinian
security personnel were killed, some of whom
were participating in the fighting, whether
during an IDF incursion or during attacks they
initiated in the settlements or against
soldiers.

However many did not take part in the fighting,
and were killed while they were standing at
their posts as defined in the Oslo Accords.
Many others were killed in bombardments, in
invasions of cities, or in attempts to detour
roadblocks. In addition to some 120
Palestinians who were targets of assassination,
82 Palestinian civilians were killed "by
mistake." They, it is to be assumed, are not
included in the 551 terrorists as defined
above.

Here are the disastrous proportions, in the hope
that someone in Israel will take notice: 80
percent of the Palestinians killed were not
connected to armed actions.

Like the Israelis, who experience the horror of
bus bombings, the Palestinians too are all
exposed to the terror of missiles and bombs
exploding in the heart of the civilian
population centers. This terror, and the tribal
need for vengeance (which is not foreign to
Israelis) have become a true "terror
infrastructure." The bottomless pit of its
ammunition is the pointlessness and
hopelessness of the lives of tens of thousands
of young people. The targeted killings may
sabotage technical capabilities for a time. But
they do not deter more and more young people
from seeking the means to act.

An educational counselor met regularly last year
with the children of the Qalandiyah refugee
camp. When she asked them how they see
themselves in 20 years, most answered "buried."
Those same children or their friends were seen,
on Sunday of this week, climbing the separation
fence that encloses their refugee camp. They
bent back the fence, broke the sensors and the
floodlights, and took every piece of metal from
the fence that was not nailed down, and it all
happened no more than 300 meters from the
nearest soldiers. When asked if they cared that
they might be shot and killed, they responded
with a snicker. What targeted killing can
overcome that kind of serenity in the face of
death?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=

Just compare your ict.org.il figure of '1091 Combatants killed' to Shin Bet's '551 Terrorists killed'. The discrepancy certainly is not due to the month of August in itself.

Spare me your horror stories. There is enough death, dismemberment and destruction to go around for all to see.

More interesting information on the Al-Aqsa Intifada can be found at Wikipedia.org. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada

[Aussie2093]

Give me one name of those who died in the wedding at Afghanistan which was bombed by the US.
Or better yet, one name of a dead Iraqi civilian/soldier?
Do you know a name of a dead person from Africa killed by the Franch/Belgiunes? a dead chechnian warrior maybe?

This war started because Palestinians have a sick leader who gives a **** about them, their names or their deaths - why should the world care?

First off, look at all those people and countries you've mentioned, what do they have in common? They have all been enemies of western powers (chechnians - Russia is a power that has a voice, so therefore applies as well). And don't for one minute think Palestinians do not belong in that list. The point is that we don't hear about them because they are our enemies to some degree or another, whether direct war has been waged or whether they are merely enemies of our allies. And therefore their deaths are just reassurance that our way of life can go on. The media isn't interested in that, they can't rally support for a cause by showing you who we've killed, they need something like a 9/11 so that they can tell people who are responsible for such terrible acts, and who needs to die next. Israel falls into the western bracket, mainly because of her alliance with the U.S. and the fact that she has a very structured and strong military and economy. I guess because of this, their lives mean more than the Arab-schmarab living next door. For a country of 5 million? That's bull****.

Wait a minute, who started the war? Certainly it wasn't Israel for moving into the holy land in a modern world, claiming to have more rights to it than Muslims or Christians alike. Just pushing aside the residing Palestinians because they were lacking structure to hold said land. Who's more valuable than who? Please don't make me bring up the holocaust, ah hell. Millions more people died in Russia and China than Jews did during the second World War. But do we hear about it everyday like the holocaust? No. Because Jews are more valuable than peasant Russians and Chinese. And they weren't killed because they continued to believe in something, they were killed because they were born somewhere.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that regardless of who's with who, people need to be counted as equals. If a bunch of people die in the world, whether they're Taliban, Iraqis or Jews, I want to hear about it. But when individual cases come out about how tragic it is for Israelis, thats not news, thats propaganda.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Since you are singling me out, your statement certainly does not address Israeli Pictures I post. You choose to see only what you want.

Oh, and if you have not noticed, The DEATH TOLL related to Palestinian civilian victims FAR OUTNUMBERS that of the Israelis statistically.

There is another side you wish not to aknowledge.

Israeli non-combatants killed by Palestinians: 635.
Israeli combatants killed by Palestinians: 167.
Palestinians non-combatants killed by Israel: 874.
Palestinian combarants killed by Israel: 1091.
Palestinian killed by their own side actions: 303.

Source: http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

So think again about the FAR OUTNUMBERS

Just as Haiw said, does your interpretation of a combatant also include 'a child throwing a stone' in disent to military occupation? Your source, ict.org.il, with a tiltle of 'An Engineered Tragedy', seems hardly unbiased.
;)

Lets look at another source, say Shin Bet itself as quoted through Ha'aretz, unless the Sharon cheerleaders find that also to be a leftwing terrorist supporting organization:


What the fatality statistics tell us
By Amira Hass

Against the background of shock and disgust at the
mass terror attack on the Jerusalem bus on August
19, and the fear of advanced Qassam rocket
attacks, the government of Israel energetically
renewed its policy of targeted killings. From
August 21 through yesterday, September 1, Air
Force fighters killed 11 Hamas activists in six
targeted assassinations in crowded central
locations. Four other Palestinians were killed in
those actions, among them a young girl and an old
man, and dozens were injured. The threatened
revenge attack has not occurred. Is this not proof
that targeted killings are the way to go?

That might have been the
conclusion in December 2000 as
well, after the first three
targeted killings that Israel
carried out the previous month.
At the end of September and
October 2000, the Palestinians
killed 11 Israelis in the
territories, five of whom were
security personnel, according
to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for
Human Rights. In November, 22 Israelis were
killed, 18 in the territories, 11 of whom were
security personnel, and four in Israel proper.
In December, the Palestinians killed eight
Israelis in the territories, five of whom were
civilians and three were security personnel. No
Israelis were killed in Israel proper in
December. This could be seen as a direct result
of the pressure brought to bear by the series
of six targeted killings that same month.

However in February 2001 the ratio between those
killed in the territories and those killed in
Israel changed: four Israelis were killed in
the territories, among them one soldier, and
eight in Israel, run down by a bus driver from
Gaza. In March 2001, two Israelis were killed
in the territories and eight in Israel, among
them three in the first deadly suicide bombing,
which took place on March 4.

From that point on, the Hamas and the Islamic
Jihad have been competing with each other to
see who could carry out the most deadly suicide
attack in Israel. In October 2001, Fatah, which
until that time had concentrated mostly on
shooting attacks in the territories, joined the
competition. The more Israel pursued its policy
of targeted killings, the more the members of
all the terror organizations competed with each
other in attacks on Israel.

The Palestinians also counted their dead: 115 in
September-October 2000 (the majority of whom
were killed during demonstrations, and among
whom were 32 children killed by IDF fire), 109
in November 2000, 48 in December 2000, 18 in
January 2001, and 20 in February. It is
convenient to think that most of those killed
were armed terrorists, and that Israel's
policy, a strong preemptive strike to prevent
deterioration, had proven itself.

But it turned out that according to calculations
of the Shin Bet and by its own definitions, of
the 2,341 Palestinians who were killed up to
the beginning of August this year, 551 were
terrorists, "that is, bearing arms and
explosives" (Ze'ev Schiff, Haaretz, August 8,
2003). To those who wonder who the other
victims were, whether they were suspects, or
civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time
- here is a partial answer: Until the end of
August this year, IDF soldiers killed 391
minors, according to B'Tselem. According to the
Red Crescent, the IDF killed 141 women.
B'Tselem determined that 291 Palestinian
security personnel were killed, some of whom
were participating in the fighting, whether
during an IDF incursion or during attacks they
initiated in the settlements or against
soldiers.

However many did not take part in the fighting,
and were killed while they were standing at
their posts as defined in the Oslo Accords.
Many others were killed in bombardments, in
invasions of cities, or in attempts to detour
roadblocks. In addition to some 120
Palestinians who were targets of assassination,
82 Palestinian civilians were killed "by
mistake." They, it is to be assumed, are not
included in the 551 terrorists as defined
above.

Here are the disastrous proportions, in the hope
that someone in Israel will take notice: 80
percent of the Palestinians killed were not
connected to armed actions.

Like the Israelis, who experience the horror of
bus bombings, the Palestinians too are all
exposed to the terror of missiles and bombs
exploding in the heart of the civilian
population centers. This terror, and the tribal
need for vengeance (which is not foreign to
Israelis) have become a true "terror
infrastructure." The bottomless pit of its
ammunition is the pointlessness and
hopelessness of the lives of tens of thousands
of young people. The targeted killings may
sabotage technical capabilities for a time. But
they do not deter more and more young people
from seeking the means to act.

An educational counselor met regularly last year
with the children of the Qalandiyah refugee
camp. When she asked them how they see
themselves in 20 years, most answered "buried."
Those same children or their friends were seen,
on Sunday of this week, climbing the separation
fence that encloses their refugee camp. They
bent back the fence, broke the sensors and the
floodlights, and took every piece of metal from
the fence that was not nailed down, and it all
happened no more than 300 meters from the
nearest soldiers. When asked if they cared that
they might be shot and killed, they responded
with a snicker. What targeted killing can
overcome that kind of serenity in the face of
death?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=

Just compare your ict.org.il figure of '1091 Combatants killed' to Shin Bet's '551 Terrorists killed'. The discrepancy certainly is not due to the month of August in itself.

Spare me your horror stories. There is enough death, dismemberment and destruction to go around for all to see.

More interesting information on the Al-Aqsa Intifada can be found at Wikipedia.org. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada


(The neutrality of this article is disputed.)
Wise guy.... Thought I didn't see it?

Amira Hass is a pro-Paalestinian publiccist living in Rammalla and the data she brought is wrong. I might even suspect she is lying knowillingly since the IDF figures are closer to those brought by the Interdissciplinary Center at Herziliya, one of the most respected private collagues in Israel of law, government and statemanship.

Since Hendrix requested, this is not the place for that discussion. But I will not tolerate a demonization of Israel and legitmation of terrorist who murder Israeli civilians (a specialy on the base of wrong data that doesn't even make sense).

Hence, this is my last post at this topic.

[hendrix33]

Lets look at another source, say Shin Bet itself as quoted through Ha'aretz, unless the Sharon cheerleaders find that also to be a leftwing terrorist supporting organization:


Well, Ha`aretz is known to be a a left-wing paper. That's a non-deniable fact. For the debate I'll use Your figures.


Other than that, what you fail to realize is that out of the 2341 dead palestinians, 551 were killed intentionally. The 551 armed terrorists, of course. All the other deaths are horrible, but they were killed UNINTENTIONALLY, while trying to defend Israel against waves of overwhelming terror. Innocent deaths, horrible deaths, undesireable deaths. Deaths the Israeli government expressed sorrow for. Deaths being the result of terrorists hiding behind civilian population. Death Israel does anything to avoid - even if not always successful.

Out of the 802 dead Israeli (combatants & non), 802 where killed intentionally, whether carrying a rifle or not, where going to school or being a baby in a crib, whether going back from the army base, or back from the synagouge. No one on the palestinian side condems these death. They were not collateral damage. They were not civilians defending armed troops. They were not hiding suicide bombers in their houses.
The 802 deaths were targeted deaths, just like Israel targets terrorist leaders. Is an eight months old baby in her crib a worthy target for the scope of a sniper?
Is this death can be counted like a missile hitting a car where a suicide bomber is on his way to Tel-Aviv, and when killing the terrorist it also killed an innocent palestinian child. Are these the same deaths?

Objectivity is unfortunately often mistaken with protecting the weaker. Yes the palestinians are weaker. But much weaker on the moral side than on the physical side.

[StarvingStudent47]

And to bounce off of Hendrix's point:

Someone will say "intent doesn't matter." I say OF COURSE IT DOES. We all recognize it with domestic legal systems. The ONLY thing different between "first-degree murder" and "involuntary manslaughter" is INTENT.

[Christkiller]

Hendrix, we agree!!! I think that all the Arabs should be marched into camps, and then set on fire. Or perhaps gassed, whichever is cheaper for Israel. And any Jews, like those of Haaretz who disagree with us, should just leave the country. Did you know that Arabs don't use toilet paper? They smell too.

[Fargin]

Banned

One giant step for mankind.