Proposed Urban Combat M1 Abrams

[Sayeret]

http://63.99.108.76/ubb/uploads/Paul+Lakowski/AbramsUpgrade.jpg

[earl]

Nice! I like the claymore mines strapped on the sides, and the cameras around the body.

[Chris196]

Nice f***'n model

[EffJi]

How effective will those claymores really be?
I mean do insurgent usually run up to the tanks and fire RPGs at point blank range?

Sure, the claymores have a long range but what about civilian casulties?
The thing (the tank) seems too dangerous to be unleashed in an urban area.
The rest of the add-ons seem good though. You can never have too much armour.

[wreck]

Nice! I like the claymore mines strapped on the sides, and the cameras around the body.
The claymores must be loved even more than reactive armor by the protecting/dismount infantry :|

[Damian]

very interesting

[sp2c]

why would you put claymores on a mbt?

[Frens]

why would you put claymores on a mbt?

when people come too close...bum!

[Onyks]

Not a bad idea, especially for places in the Middle East

[sp2c]

when people come too close...bum!

how does the crew know when to detonate?

mind you, tanks have no business in a city without supporting infantry

anyways, I think it looks good enough except for the claymores

[Galileo]

the Leclerc is equipped with GLAIX grenade laucher (anti personnel (each greande deliver 10000 scharpnel and can clear an area of 50m, the other grenade are tears gas, smoke, IR decoy).
This system is alos fitte don Ariete and Leopard 2.
so effective thaht amesty international ask the GIAT to unmount this system from tank.

[ElHombre]

the israeli merkava has an internal mortar fitted. IIRC, it is usually used in the firing of illumination rounds.

looks like they've taken another cue from the israelis- the MG over the main gun. looks like a 50-cal. israel has found this to be of great effect in urban combat. that might be something that can be added on in the field.

[thatguy96]

when people come too close...bum!

how does the crew know when to detonate?

mind you, tanks have no business in a city without supporting infantry

anyways, I think it looks good enough except for the claymores
Its much more of an anti-ambush weapon, when you're not actually in an operational situation, and you don't nessecarily have supporting infantry. A platoon of infantry are far better then four claymore mines, but when you don't have that support, its nice to have something. Its not like this is the first time that's been done before either.

[ZeroPositive]

I like it good idea and prevents people trying to stick mines or the likes onto the tank.

[Silverdragon]

when people come too close...bum!

how does the crew know when to detonate?

mind you, tanks have no business in a city without supporting infantry

anyways, I think it looks good enough except for the claymores

theres a camera right above the claymores so they can watch the side. i think its perfect especially for when insurgents try to get close to place explosives or something along those lines. and arent claymores packed with metal balls? shouldnt that be able to kill someone pretty far off?

[bison3255]

abrams wasnt heavy enough at 70 tons was it

[tenda]

........mhhhhhhh........kabooooommmmmm....!!!! :P

[Laworkerbee]

Claymores do not release steel balls, they release plastic balls.

Why?

X-ray machines wont detect the plastic balls, making the work of taking them out that much harder and a further drain on enemy resources.

[aartamen]

Positive?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m18-claymore.htm


The mine contains 700 steel spheres

[Laworkerbee]

Damn you and your facts

I was told plastic years ago :roll:

[Silverdragon]

wow they cause causualties farther out then i expected. thanks for the info aartamen :)

[Operation Ivy]

pretty neat :D

i cant really read that picture to well but does it mention putting anymore protection where the back vents are?

[TarwarWarrior]

sp2c wrote:


why would you put claymores on a mbt?

Anti-theft system! rofl

-TW, out!-

[talib_killa34]

When is this rolling out? :D

[soma]

Tracks are still exposed. What about common areas exposed to RPG hits?

[pzheng]

pretty neat :D

i cant really read that picture to well but does it mention putting anymore protection where the back vents are?

ya... they have armor in the back(not the slat armor but better)there is also a snorkel which is fitted to deflect the heat from engine to protect the solider behind...

[pzheng]

here's the full size image....

http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/35/40/107013540aEPXYa_fs.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image4/1/78/93/107617893dPajjo_fs.jpg

[aartamen]

They don't work. Yet.

[thatguy96]

Claymores do not release steel balls, they release plastic balls.
There was a proposed less than lethat version of the M18A1 APERSM that used plastic balls, I'm not sure how far that went though.

[Wilco]

Who is even sure this is an actual army model and not some kids model?

[Sayeret]

I like it good idea and prevents people trying to stick mines or the likes onto the tank.

How often do people try to do that? I've only seen things like that in movies. Are they used often?

[Operation Ivy]

pretty neat :D

i cant really read that picture to well but does it mention putting anymore protection where the back vents are?

ya... they have armor in the back(not the slat armor but better)there is also a snorkel which is fitted to deflect the heat from engine to protect the solider behind...

thxs :D

might aswell try it out on a couple of tanks and see how it does :D

[angry cow]

Claymores would prolly work good on your old-fashioned, soft-skinned vehicle-borne suicide bomber too. :lol:

[ronin2172]

Who is even sure this is an actual army model and not some kids model?
i was thinking the same thing....but if it is for real it looks good

[Azide]

how come no one mentioned this... wouldn't setting off a claymore damage the tank?

if you look in the picture one of those "cameras" would definitely get blown away when one goes off.

[pzheng]

Who is even sure this is an actual army model and not some kids model?

They showed it in the armor conferrence.... so i think it's serious enough to not to be called a kids model... beside... it's just a proposal...and it doesn't really matter now... the abrams already work well enough in urban territory....

[pzheng]

how come no one mentioned this... wouldn't setting off a claymore damage the tank?

if you look in the picture one of those "cameras" would definitely get blown away when one goes off.

u know... there is a reason that they write "FRONT TOWARD THE ENEMY" on the claymore.....

[scrybe]

I'm also interested how strong the back-blast on those would be.

In general, it looks like a lot of good improvements.

[stuntman]

come on guys everyone knows the Claymore is to deter jumping on Abrams! After enough people jump on it , it blows there ****in legs off.

[Hellfish]

It'll make that dude in the alley next to the tank think twice about shooting that M-1 with an RPG when he sees his friend smeared on the wall... and on the ground... and on the other wall... and on the clothes hung out to dry twenty feet above. p-)

[thatguy96]

how come no one mentioned this... wouldn't setting off a claymore damage the tank?

if you look in the picture one of those "cameras" would definitely get blown away when one goes off.
If ERA doesn't destroy a tank when it goes off, then what makes you think the mounting for the M18A1 isn't strong enough to withstand the blast? As I said before, its not like this is the first time Claymores have been used like this.

[Azide]

how come no one mentioned this... wouldn't setting off a claymore damage the tank?

if you look in the picture one of those "cameras" would definitely get blown away when one goes off.
If ERA doesn't destroy a tank when it goes off, then what makes you think the mounting for the M18A1 isn't strong enough to withstand the blast? As I said before, its not like this is the first time Claymores have been used like this.

not the first time? can you provide more background?


u know... there is a reason that they write "FRONT TOWARD THE ENEMY" on the claymore.....

its still 1.5 pounds of C-4, where is all that energy going to go?

[saigonsmuggler]

This was shown at trhe armor conference in 2002, before the OIF. There has been no talk whether the Army will pick up on any up-armor proposal for the M1 series.

[AVZ]

the Leclerc is equipped with GLAIX grenade laucher (anti personnel (each greande deliver 10000 scharpnel and can clear an area of 50m, the other grenade are tears gas, smoke, IR decoy).
This system is alos fitte don Ariete and Leopard 2.
so effective thaht amesty international ask the GIAT to unmount this system from tank.




Pic's???????

[thatguy96]

how come no one mentioned this... wouldn't setting off a claymore damage the tank?

if you look in the picture one of those "cameras" would definitely get blown away when one goes off.
If ERA doesn't destroy a tank when it goes off, then what makes you think the mounting for the M18A1 isn't strong enough to withstand the blast? As I said before, its not like this is the first time Claymores have been used like this.

not the first time? can you provide more background?
The Rhodesian Army and US forces in Southeast Asia had already pioneered using Claymores like this some 30 years ago.

[Lancer]

US tank crews used claymores attached to their M48 tanks during the Vietnam War. The drivers normally had the clackers for detonating the claymores, which were usually fitted on the front glacis plate.

Its a good system for detering enemy grunts. You just have to make sure you are closed down (buttoned up) and there are no friendlies close by.

[Fallosophy]

claymores are a pretty big explosion. I know because debris rained down on my platoon from 74 yards away...and we were behid the blast radius.

it is a pretty powerful little weapon.

[Unit-Qz52]

its still 1.5 pounds of C-4, where is all that energy going to go?

I didnt know how claymore exactly works either so I went here and now it makes perfect sense, if it functions something like the M18 claymores

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m18-claymore.htm

"Front towards the enemy" indeed.

[5jumpchump]

How effective will those claymores really be?
I mean do insurgent usually run up to the tanks and fire RPGs at point blank range?


Yes , sometimes they do . I remember reading about the rush to Bahgdad
were a top gunner on the 50. ran out of ammo . Some guy with a pistol starts charging and firing at him . The gunner removed the heavy ammo can and threw it at the guy nailing him in the head and knocking him to the ground . Then he pulled out his 9mm and shot him till the clip was empty . I think a claymore would be good in this situation no ?

[webfoots]

Simply removing all the crew gear (packs, rations, etc) from around the turret would keep many of the lost Abrams in action. It seems like more than half of the disabled tanks that I've read about have come from burning material that dropped down on the engines and started engine fires.

[aartamen]

Claymore utilizes an effect that was discovered during WWII - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misznay-Schardin_effect

Basically it means that there's not much backblast. Especially if you are talking about its effect on an MBT armor.

As the article above mentions that's the same effect HESH warheads use. Though I'm unsure of the details. Is anyone still using HESH warheads in AT munitions?

[thatguy96]

Basically it means that there's not much backblast. Especially if you are talking about its effect on an MBT armor.
Its also not just strapped onto the side ad-hoc. Its rigged up in a specially designed mount more likely than not to prevent damage to the vehicle or its occupants.

[Azide]

Claymore utilizes an effect that was discovered during WWII - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misznay-Schardin_effect

Basically it means that there's not much backblast. Especially if you are talking about its effect on an MBT armor.

As the article above mentions that's the same effect HESH warheads use. Though I'm unsure of the details. Is anyone still using HESH warheads in AT munitions?

Well its obviosly not going to penetrate the armor but it going "dent" the metal. My point is that camera is way to close to where the claymore is placed and would get damaged by the blast.

[aartamen]

I do not know about the camera, but I do not think anything at all will get dented. Claymores have been detonated by people standing or laying pretty close to them and living to tell about it.

[Wilco]

It'll make that dude in the alley next to the tank think twice about shooting that M-1 with an RPG when he sees his friend smeared on the wall... and on the ground... and on the other wall... and on the clothes hung out to dry twenty feet above. p-)

If you would have said that in the Flashpoint1985 forums, you would have been told off by about 50 Anti-Bush/U.S. people, then banned ;)





Like me :D

[Christophe]

Maybe a dumb question :oops: ,but is the claymore as used in Vietnam still part of the US military inventory; or is there a new version?
Also, and perhaps I am wrong, but what if a crewmember has a part of his anatomy showing when the claymores are fired, isn´t that going to be a major mess?Maybe it is better to have a say .50Cal type weapon on every 'corner' connected to a remote control and a camera.Isn´t that the way the Israeli´s do it on their mbt´s? :|

[Wilco]

I believe the Claymore only shoots in one 180 Degree direction, so if it's facing away, shouldn't impact the Crew, and I believe it's still in use, should be anyways, overkill at it's finest ;)

[lastdingo]

Where's this photo from? What's the context? Who created this concept?

[Christophe]

Wilco,
all I know about the claymore is what I got out of non-fiction books about the Vietnam war.
In them it was often said that one had to take into acount the fact of a backblast ,which could easely kill a man.I cannot remember the distance you needed though.I try to look it up asap,but since I have an op tomorrow as well as the day after, it may take a few days.Since I am only human I also need a few hours of sleep a night (or day,depending) :lol:

[Wilco]

Haha, no problem man, I would guess the Armor of the tank would protect him, and if you notice, the claymores are inside a dipped\grooved armor addition on the side.

[highlander653]

Tanks aren't the ideal CQB weapon in the first place, so why bother adding all these gadgets? Wouldn't a nice APC do the job better?

[Raistlin]

Well, Israel must be using them frequently in the territories for some reason...

[highlander653]

The Israeli Merkava is more like a cross between a tank and an APC. ;)

[Raistlin]

That APC was designed to kick the ass of many other tanks ;)

[highlander653]

yea, but the Merkava is designed to be an urban AFV with exhaust shield, rear door, troop carrying capacity, and front engine. Whereas the Abrams (and most other tanks) is designed as a battlefield superiority tank with an emphasis on anti armour capabilities. So why bother adapting the Abrams to a task it's not meant for?

[Wilco]

I say we (The U.S.) by some Merkava 4's from Israel.

[Operation Ivy]

So why bother adapting the Abrams to a task it's not meant for?

because its doing very well in urban combat so far,why not try and make it better

[aartamen]

I believe the Claymore only shoots in one 180 Degree direction, so if it's facing away, shouldn't impact the Crew, and I believe it's still in use, should be anyways, overkill at it's finest ;)


The Claymore projects a fan-shaped pattern of steel balls in a 60-degree horizontal arc, at a maximum height of 2 meters, and covers a casualty radius of 100 meters. The optimum effective range (the range at which the most desirable balance is achieved between lethality and area coverage) is 50 meters. The forward danger radius for friendly forces is 250 meters. The backblast area is unsafe in unprotected areas 16 meters to the rear and sides of the munition. Friendly personnel within 100 meters to the rear and sides of the munition should be in a covered position to be safe from secondary missiles.

But as I said if it was either to fire the Claymore standing behind it or die, then the first is very preferrable.

[SturmGrenadier]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PAB/is_4_112/ai_114049522/pg_1

[SturmGrenadier]

The modular crowd control munition (MCCM) paired with the vehicle mounting system (VMS) offers another solution. The M5 MCCM is a nonlethal, rubber-ball filled explosive directional munition housed in a Claymore mine casing (it is identical in size to and interchangeable with the M18 Claymore). It is mounted on vehicle exteriors with the VMS kit. The VMS consists of four mounting brackets, junction box, and a control box that allows single or volley fire of the munitions from inside the vehicle. For nonrestrictive ROE environments, the M5 MCCM can also be exchanged with the M18 Claymore to provide a lethal defense option, which would be a particularly effective defense against short-range antiarmor ambush.