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View Full Version : Pct. Lynch and 507th's weapons...............



Smoothie104
09-17-2003, 01:15 PM
The U.S. Army on Tuesday revealed that all records and documents about the weapons that jammed during the March 23 ambush that led to the death of nine Fort Bliss soldiers were destroyed in the Iraqi attack and that there is no way to trace the weapons' histories.

The Army, responding to an El Paso Times request under the Freedom of Information Act, said any official information about the weapons used by Fort Bliss' 507th Maintenance Company was lost on a supply truck taken into combat.

An official report on the ambush near Nasiriyah said that several weapons, including M-16s, M249 Squad Automatic Weapons and a .50-caliber machine gun, jammed or failed to operate properly during the firefight.

The disclosure that the records were lost shocked, bewildered and further angered relatives of soldiers who were killed in the early morning ambush, which is among the worst losses for the U.S. military during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition to the nine Fort Bliss soldiers killed, two from the 3rd Forward Support Battalion were killed, five soldiers were wounded, and seven soldiers were taken prisoner.

"Capt. Troy King (507th commander) stated that he does not have any historical data on weapons involved in the enemy contact," June Bates, Fort Bliss freedom of information officer, said in a written response. "He lost his motorpool truck and all documentation."

Bates said King's records, which were kept in the motor pool, were stored in his supply truck, which was also "involved in the enemy contact."

The official 507th report, which was released by the Army on July 17, suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

Nancili Mata, the widow of Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, who was killed in the ambush, said she was shocked to learn that no duplicate records were kept on the weapons.

"They should have copies here. It doesn't sound right," she said. "They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

Arlene Walters, mother of Sgt. Donald R. Walters, who died in the attack and would have celebrated his 34th birthday Tuesday, said her son was dedicated to his job and to details. She said she finds it hard to believe that her son's weapon wasn't kept clean.

"He kept his guns as clean as can be," she said. "He even talked to his dad about it."

Because the circumstances surrounding the death of Walters are unclear, his parents continue to ask questions about anything involving their son, including the history of his weapon.

"Nothing surprises me anymore, but what I don't understand is why would you carry that kind of information into a battlefield," Arlene Walters asked. "It seems to me that if those weapons were issued out at Fort Bliss, then the records should have stayed at Fort Bliss."

Ruben Estrella, father of 18-year-old Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, from El Paso, said he no longer believes anything the Army tells him.

"They told me that my son was shot in the head, and now they are saying that he was struck by a tank," he said. "I think the Army or the government is hiding something, but sooner or later the truth will be told."

Fort Bliss responds

The El Paso Times had requested the history of 31 weapons the soldiers carried during the ambush. The request sought information about weapon repairs, the weapons' ages, and the manufacturer and condition of each weapon assigned to the 507th soldiers involved in the attack.

Officials at the Department of Defense referred all questions to Fort Bliss officials.

Jean Offutt, Fort Bliss spokeswoman, said that taking all data regarding a company's weapons into battle is standard practice.

"When we deployed, all our active-duty soldiers had to take their documents with them because we mobilized a lot of reservists who lived in the emptied barracks," Offutt said. "So all of their personnel files as well as files on weapons were taken with them."

Because personnel files were lost in the ambush and no duplicates exist, the 507th is now trying to re-create the information. Also, Offutt said, some of the weapons the 507th used haven't been recovered.

"But shortly before the soldiers deployed, all of the weapons were certified and serviceable," Offutt said. "The weapons were fired on the firing range before they deployed."

Official answers

Retired Lt. Gen. Don Lionetti, the commander who led Fort Bliss during the 1991 Persian Gulf war, said he could not speculate on what Fort Bliss soldiers do or don't take into combat, but he said if the records are "in-country, I imagine that they would have to take the records with them."

"Once they leave Kuwait to go into Iraq they may not come back through Kuwait, so they have to take the information with them," Lionetti said.

U.S. Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-El Paso, who called for a congressional hearing in March to determine what happened during the attack, said he believes Fort Bliss' response is logical.

"The Army wouldn't lie, especially when a Freedom of Information Act request is made," he said



The ambush

Killed

Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, El Paso.

Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, Pecos.

Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, Roswell, Ga.

Pfc. Howard Johnson II, Mobile, Ala.

Spc. James Kiehl, Comfort, Texas.

Pvt. Brandon Sloan, Bedford Heights, Ohio.

Pfc. Lori Piestewa, Tuba City, Ariz.

Sgt. Donald R. Walters, Salem, Ore.

Master Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, Cleveland.

Pfc. Edward Anguiano of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

Captured

Spc. Edgar Hernandez, Alton, Texas.

Spc. Joseph Hudson, Alamogordo.

Spc. Shoshana Johnson, El Paso.

Pfc. Patrick Miller, Walter, Kan.

Sgt. James Joseph Riley, Pennsauken, N.J.

Pfc. Jessica Lynch, Palestine, W.Va.

Piestewa died while a prisoner.

Seiyuuki
09-17-2003, 02:07 PM
An official report on the ambush near Nasiriyah said that several weapons, including M-16s, M249 Squad Automatic Weapons and a .50-caliber machine gun, jammed or failed to operate properly during the firefight.

Everything jam?

HMMcrewchief
09-17-2003, 02:11 PM
I will not comment on the above circumstance, as I was not there and I did not know the persons involved. But maintenance and rear area units especially USArmy are not known for their firearms proficiency. I can testify to this as my younger sister is in a similar unit in the USArmy. During a leave we both had together. I discovered she did not know basic combat and marksmanship skills. I took it upon myself during that time to teach her. Now I am not a skilled infantry man, but the Corps has taught me how to defend myself. The Army really must reconsider the current training it offers its non combat troops, have they not learned from Korea and Vietnam that there is no front line anymore? How many more people have to die before this becomes cost effective for the USArmy to do? I think a bottom up review is in order for ALL branches, to make sure that today's soldier is ready for the modern battlefield.

As for the above persons who did not make it home. May you Rest In Peace. As for the others Welcome Home.

buckeyedoc
09-17-2003, 02:26 PM
One of Murphy's Laws that HMMCrewchief missed is....

Your equipment was made by the lowest bidder.

Argyll
09-17-2003, 02:27 PM
This is the 1st time I have heard or seen anything that said Lori Piestewa died as a prisoner..........anywhere............not even the Iraqi doctor who treated Lynch mentioned she had survived the initial crash.
I'm pretty sure that the Humvee she was in was supposedly hit by an RPG whick killed her,causing the vehicle to crash into another whilst trying to flee the ambush,resulting in Lynch recieving her injuries!

Is this an official line,or from what Lynch has reported for the million bucks?

Jack Mehoff
09-17-2003, 02:32 PM
There is no such thing as jammed M16, only stupid operators. I've been using M16A2 for most of my infantry career and my rifle NEVER jam on me when I need it the most. I assume rear echelon don't take care of their weapons as they should be :roll:

MSG Dman
09-17-2003, 03:08 PM
Jack, if your Artillery, why are you wearing a CIB on your BDU's?

GLax
09-17-2003, 03:17 PM
one thing i find interesting is that i heard very little about weapons jamming for front line Infantry, Army or Marines


"They should have copies here. It doesn't sound right," she said. "They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

i dunno about you but this sounds like an extremely upset wife trying to find somebody to blame. i dont blame her but maybe she should be criticising the training or the unit commander instead of the weapons...

A$$MAN
09-17-2003, 03:44 PM
One of Murphy's Laws that HMMCrewchief missed is....
Your equipment was made by the lowest bidder.

One of the most ridiculous arguements some outside the military make. The overall performance and QC of GI are established well in advanced of production by MILITARY standards. Weapons are certainly not laid at the Riverside Entrance. Also, weapons are produced by very effective and efficient firms. Firms whose size can bear a very low production cost. These weapons are exactly the same as the weapons found in the USMC or 25ID or any other US unit.

hood
09-17-2003, 04:16 PM
This topic has been brought up a few times at this point. One of the prevailing factors in what was believed to be the cause of weapon jams, was an inferior type of cleaning oil that these troops had. Apparently it attracted dirt/sand and almost no matter how well cleaned you kept your weapon, it was ****e to jamming often in Iraq's climate. It was mentioned in the article that I'm thinking of, was that a complaint was made by various commanders and after the correct oil wasn't supplied, they had gone out to stores to buy cases of the good stuff for their troops, sometimes out of their own pockets. I'll see if I can find it.

FallenAngel
09-17-2003, 04:32 PM
Now, if they had been armed with G36s which DON'T jam- even in the desert.... ;)

That's horrible though. Whoever's fault it is that the gun wasn't cleaned properly- the gun should be redesigned so it doesn't need cleaning every 6 hours or a special type of oil. The one thing EVERYONE in the military should be able to rely on is their weapon. Without that- you're f*cked- even if you are a candlestick maker 15 miles from the so-called "front lines"

Deuterium
09-17-2003, 05:06 PM
After 20 years in the army with 17 in combat arms I too must say that I've never experienced a jam in my m-16/m4. I have, however, seen how support troops treat and care for their weapons, very poorly. This is a leadership challenge that support troops don't put any emphasis on. I expect that this will change. I've never had to clean my weapon every 6 hours to keep in functioning. I went through SFARTEATC(45 days, 3,000 rds) only thouroughly cleaning my weapon three times. A daily wipe down and using the right oil for the environment is all it takes, a 5 minute job. This is a skill level one task. EVERYONE in that chain of command failed from the private to the commander.

Jack Mehoff
09-17-2003, 05:21 PM
Jack, if your Artillery, why are you wearing a CIB on your BDU's?

Was-Active duty,10th Mountain (light). War against terrorism, Afghanistan
Now-UT Nasty Girl,FA

hood
09-17-2003, 05:24 PM
Unfortunately that requires you to send in photos for the galleries here for ... uhh.. confirmation purposes. *cough*

Jack Mehoff
09-17-2003, 05:27 PM
Unfortunately that requires you to send in photos for the galleries here for ... uhh.. confirmation purposes. *cough*

http://www.nastyburger.com/id2.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/id1.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/ako.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/TakeALeak.JPG

Section 13 on my DD-214, you need to see that too? You'll know what I am talking about if you have a DD-214

hood
09-17-2003, 05:55 PM
haha So I take it you're a white guy from those identification shots. :) Actually I was halfway serious about the photos.. if there's any you want to put up in a gallery in the User Submitted section, we're always looking for more.

California Joe
09-17-2003, 06:13 PM
Simmah don nah.

Apogee
09-18-2003, 11:20 PM
Its funny, but its illegal to posses two military IDs at one time. You have to turn in the old "green card" to get issued the CAC. Thats besides the fact that you are never supposed to scan your Mil ID.

No such thing as a jammed M-16? Are you serious? Maybe 10th Mountain gets issued different ones that I've seen, but I've seen M-16's jam on a range. These were clean M-16s not in a combat enviroment.

Oh yea, and last thing, when I was trained by 10th Mountain (2 years ago) every 11b out there had an M-4. I don't mean most of them, I mean I didn't see a single infantry soldier with an M-16.

I'm not trying to punk you out or anything, but it just doesn't add up, thats all.

James
09-19-2003, 12:02 AM
I had a jam once, with an M-16A2. I can remember it very clearly. I was in the 2nd month of recruit training, shooting at Edson Range aboard Camp Pendelton, CA, in 1993. Early one morning, I dropped my rifle :oops: and it went muzzle down in the dirt. I was screamed at, but, as it was time for the platoon to move to the range, my Drill Instructors took a rain check on the attention I so deserved. Soon, we were shooting. I fired exactly one shot, then had a failure to extract compounded by a double feed. Some of the sand from the muzzle had gotten into the chamber, and the first round I fired was stuck. It took a cleaning rod to take care of that.

After that, I spent the majority of my infantry career in 29 Palms, CA. I never had a problem with an M-16. Or an M-249.

My secret for the M-249 - get heavy lubricant; I scrounged LSA from the machine gunners and slathered it over the bolt, the operating rod and the spring. It made it filthy to shoot, as the goop would leak out over the psitol grip and my hand, but it was much better than CLP.

Jack Mehoff
09-19-2003, 12:19 AM
Its funny, but its illegal to posses two military IDs at one time. You have to turn in the old "green card" to get issued the CAC. Thats besides the fact that you are never supposed to scan your Mil ID.


They retrieve the expired ID card everytime they give you new one. Thats why I SAVED my old ID card I scan a while back ago in the hard drive of my computer. You could tell my ETS from active duty wasn't that long ago. Jesus christ!! think think :bash: Technology rocks

Yeah, i know i'm an impersonator, got problem with that? I'm a Green Beenie with Ranger tab, airborne tab, air assault tab, Bronze Star with V, Purple Heart, and a Medal of Honor. I got that M40 gas mask from ebay too. woot Do you need passwords to my LES and AKO account too?



Jack Mehoff wrote:
There is no such thing as jammed M16, only stupid operators. I've been using M16A2 for most of my infantry career and my rifle NEVER jam on me when I need it the most. I assume rear echelon don't take care of their weapons as they should be



http://www.nastyburger.com/finger.jpg

Apogee
09-19-2003, 08:54 AM
I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war. All I'm saying is that it is bad form to post electronic copies of IDs. Not only is it bad form, its illegal:


(2) Title 18, United States Code, Section 701, prohibits photographing or otherwise reproducing of possessing uniformed services identification cards in an unauthorized manner under penalty of fine or imprisonment of both. Unauthorized use of the DD form 2 - Retired or the DD form 1173 would exist if a bearer used the card in a manner that would enable the bearer to obtain benefits and privileges to which the bearer is not entitled. Photocopying the DD form 2 - retired or DD form 1173 to facilitate medical care processing, check cashing or administering other military-related benefits to eligible beneficiaries are examples of authorized photocopying. Commercial establishments have no entitlement to photocopy military ID cards, other than matters pertaining to CHAMPUS claims. (March RAO 9/92) (*)

Thats all, have a good one.