Democracy and Islam

[jdbjdb]

It would be like trying to breath in space.

[Zach R.]

You like to make it short and sweet ehh? But hey, I'm with ya 100%

[jdbjdb]

I'm not trying to be negative but its the truth Its unstable in Turkey and the militants would not like a western style government, they really wouldn't like that separation of church & state or Mosque?

[James]

I have to say that I think it is culture, rather than religion, that prevents democracy from working.. The two often get mixed up, I admit. I even do it myself :( .

Democracy as we think of it today has only existed for 227 years. Christianity was used as the reason for progress (tyranny) in Europe throughout the middle ages (the inquisition, the crusades). In the 17th and 18th centuries, "progress" meant conquistadors in Latin America killing 90% of the indigenous population and Europeans and Americans routinely bought and stole Africans to be used as slaves.

When someone uses religion as an excuse, as a crutch to support the idea that they deserve better, and someone comes along and tells them that their just desserts have been taken unfairly by someone of a different religion or cultural group, there are problems.

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

[mocking_loudly]

If we managed to wipe out all religous texts the world would be a better place.

Just my humble opinion.

[Mortimer]

If we managed to wipe out all religous texts the world would be a better place.

Just my humble opinion.
i agree

[jdbjdb]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist

[budanski]

The largest nation where the majority of citizens are Muslim is Indonesia, which has a democratic government. The country that has the second largest bunch of Muslims is India. Turkey is not alone as an Islamic democracy. Most Muslim countries are despotic just as most countries of any religion are run by despots; but on balance, most Muslims are already democrats.

[Jack Mehoff]

If we managed to wipe out all religous texts the world would be a better place.

Just my humble opinion.

or become atheist like me

[jdbjdb]

Indonesia and India are both having problems with their muslim population, India and Pakistan are on the verge of nuking each other over Kashmir, Muslims just can't deal with the fact they don't own everything in the middle east, they don't understand that the Temple Mount is not theirs, the small amount of land that is all over the news day in day out is not their land, it belongs to the jews, the arabs could have had their own state of Palestine, 1948 they said " no " they can crawl across the east bank back to Jordan or they can goto the South Pole.

[James]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist

When I was in college I studied some Irish History, and we had an interesting book assigned (Belfast Diary, by John Conroy). The author was an American journalist who made a number of visits to Belfast, hoping to get inside what the locals were thinking. One evening during the marching season, he was drawn to a bonfire where a number of locals were hanging out. They identified him as an outsider and began to question him. Was he Catholic or Protestant? they asked. He said he was an American. Fine, they said. An American Catholic? or an American Protestant? Feeling desperate, he told them that he was a Jew. He didn't want to get beaten for saying the wrong thing. He was not Jewish (I can't recall if he was religious at all). Later, he wrote that he found it interesting that it was probably the first and only time in history when someone had claimed to be Jewish in order to escape persecution. Something to think about. There are Christian Terrorists and (as I'm sure some visitors would be happy to point out ;) ) Jewish terrorists out there as well.

Religion is not the issue. If one is not heathen or an aethist, that leaves three choices - Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. They worship the same God. I can't reconcile how a Christian committing suicide would take him/her to hell, while a Muslim committing suicide gets into heaven :roll: . Granted, I haven't ever read the Koran, but thinking about it makes me think that it's not about religion... Religion is the lame excuse.

[Seiyuuki]

If one is not heathen or an aethist, that leaves three choices - Christianity, Islam, or Judaism.

I think that leave one with more than three choices.

The author could have said he was a Buddhist.

[James]

Heathen doesn't necessarily imply something bad - it just means that one has some sort of religious belief, but it does not lie with the God of the Bible/Torah/Koran.

[Seiyuuki]

Ahh...

[jdbjdb]

There are Christian Terrorists and (as I'm sure some visitors would be happy to point out ) Jewish terrorists out there as well.



Yes that's true, but the muslims terrorist are more active

[citizen-k]

There are Christian Terrorists and (as I'm sure some visitors would be happy to point out ;) ) Jewish terrorists out there as well.


There are.

Last week 3 of them were trailed and thrown to jail.

Nobody likes them or supports them, 99% of Israelis are against any brutal action taken by civilians. But it's true though that those who does are religions.

I would like to add one more thing - Christians and Muslims believe that God sent a "replacement" for him (Jesus and Muhamad) and both religions, unlike Judism, believe that one of their tasks on earth it to repent (spelling?) people from a diferent religion.
Judism is the only one from all 3 which the repentant himslef needs to convince the Jews he is serious and deserves it.

A few weeks ago one of the news papers published a list of questions repentant are been asked when trying to be accepted - PM Sharon said he has no chance of making it. (most poeple who are already "in" can't - this test is a mix of SAT's + History + Math logic quiz)

For all of those who think atheism is the answer - Communism (Stalin, rings a bell?) is based on atheism.

(That's why Jews love the idea so much - they thought they could be equal)

[ArmoredDov_D9]

There are few Islamic democarcies, but one cay say that they are democarcies depsite of the Islam and not because of it.

However, there is no Arab democarcy. Arab government are monarchies, thocarcies, anarchies and dictatorships. Paradoxly, the most advance Arab countries are the monarchies (where Kings rule).

[Adri]

"one nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figther"

"there is NO good side in ANY war"

"normaly bouth sides are lying in a war..."



why cant we just all play games ;)

[citizen-k]

There are few Islamic democarcies, but one cay say that they are democarcies depsite of the Islam and not because of it.

However, there is no Arab democarcy. Arab government are monarchies, thocarcies, anarchies and dictatorships. Paradoxly, the most advance Arab countries are the monarchies (where Kings rule).

People actually believed the Palestinians can have a new prime minister

while Arafat is alive... rofl

This an example of poeple who only saw arabs in Walt-Disney films...

(yeah, sinbad is nice - but he is NOT a Plaestinian)

[Adri]

There are few Islamic democarcies, but one cay say that they are democarcies depsite of the Islam and not because of it.

However, there is no Arab democarcy. Arab government are monarchies, thocarcies, anarchies and dictatorships. Paradoxly, the most advance Arab countries are the monarchies (where Kings rule).

People actually believed the Palestinians can have a new prime minister

while Arafat is alive... rofl

This an example of poeple who only saw arabs in Walt-Disney films...

(yeah, sinbad is nice - but he is NOT a Plaestinian)



I am geting the idee of that you never would belive in something wich migth be against israeli thouths ???

it`s like trying to tell an american that they realy got there ass kicked in vietnam.....

[citizen-k]

I am geting the idee of that you never would belive in something wich migth be against israeli thouths ???

it`s like trying to tell an american that they realy got there ass kicked in vietnam.....

Sorry, but saying an Arab leader can just retire, alive - is stupid... VERY

stupid...

Arafat was and always will be a terrorist (a blowing up buses with kids Nobel prize winner terrorist) and he will be the one and only leader of the Palestinians until the day he dies - FACT!

[Adri]

I am not saying arafat isnt a terrorist (he is, but so is sharon)

but I dont like the way you generalize arabs, saying that most of them are terrorsist and that they will get democracy.....

do you like it if I say "all israelis is terrorist cause sharone did that and that in 1982"

(he he if you know history you will allso know that is a trap, what happend in 82? ;) )

[citizen-k]

I am not saying arafat isnt a terrorist (he is, but so is sharon)

but I dont like the way you generalize arabs, saying that most of them are terrorsist and that they will get democracy.....

do you like it if I say "all israelis is terrorist cause sharone did that and that in 1982"

(he he if you know history you will allso know that is a trap, what happend in 82? ;) )

Generalize? Do you know any retired arab leader somewhere around the world?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

"one nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figther"

"there is NO good side in ANY war"

"normaly bouth sides are lying in a war..."

why cant we just all play games ;)

Spare me the bull****, ok?

[Adri]

I am not saying arafat isnt a terrorist (he is, but so is sharon)

but I dont like the way you generalize arabs, saying that most of them are terrorsist and that they will get democracy.....

do you like it if I say "all israelis is terrorist cause sharone did that and that in 1982"

(he he if you know history you will allso know that is a trap, what happend in 82? ;) )

Generalize? Do you know any retired arab leader somewhere around the world?

do I look like I am studing arab culture ? do you think I would care ?

[Adri]

"one nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figther"

"there is NO good side in ANY war"

"normaly bouth sides are lying in a war..."

why cant we just all play games ;)

Spare me the bull****, ok?

then why dont you say something ? try to show me you point of view, not yous saying "thats bull****"

[Adri]

ops back to the topic:

so why cant arabs get democracy ?

I think they can (indonesia, osv...... and yes they have trubles with there people, but whi havent ?)

[ArmoredDov_D9]

"one nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figther"

"there is NO good side in ANY war"

"normaly bouth sides are lying in a war..."

why cant we just all play games ;)

Spare me the bull****, ok?

then why dont you say something ? try to show me you point of view, not yous saying "thats bull****"

Easily, please implict your remarks on WW2 and see how you giving legitimation to the Nazi crimes ("they are 'freedom fighter' ") and delegitimize the allies efforts to stop them.

[Adri]

Easily, please implict your remarks on WW2 and see how you giving legitimation to the Nazi crimes ("they are 'freedom fighter' ") and delegitimize the allies efforts to stop them.

it is corect that they look at them self as freedom figther, I have never cald the arab terrosist freedom figther.
what I have said is:

"on nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figthers"

isnt that trouth ?

norway was on the allied side in ww2 so for us the nazis was terrorist...

[ArmoredDov_D9]

When someone usually says that "on nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figthers", it is in the contexts of: "there is no single moral code or ethiquette. There is more than one moral code, there is more than one point of view - and they are all acceptable and true". Or in other words - this is the slogan of Cultural Relativists affected by the Actualist Post-Modernism which find themselves advocating the Nazis as a corollary of their philosophy and ethics. Emmanuel Kant was the grandfather of this relativist moral philosophy and he managed to understand that is eqthiquette can justify every deed - no matter how horrible or brutal it is. He knew that and therefore added a patch to his ethiquette.

[Adri]

When someone usually says that "on nations terrorist is a other nations freedom figthers", it is in the contexts of: "there is no single moral code or ethiquette. There is more than one moral code, there is more than one point of view - and they are all acceptable and true". Or in other words - this is the slogan of Cultural Relativists affected by the Actualist Post-Modernism which find themselves advocating the Nazis as a corollary of their philosophy and ethics. Emmanuel Kant was the grandfather of this relativist moral philosophy and he managed to understand that is eqthiquette can justify every deed - no matter how horrible or brutal it is. He knew that and therefore added a patch to his ethiquette.

well I am not in that "Actualist Post-Modernism"
if I was wouldent I be more on the palestinian side ?
wouldent I acuse israel for more ?

so I am not a prart of those what-the-hell-it-was group
I say it again, I havent said that I suport them, but I know that they dont look at themself as terrorist....the look at the enemy as terrorist

[citizen-k]

ops back to the topic:

so why cant arabs get democracy ?

I think they can (indonesia, osv...... and yes they have trubles with there people, but whi havent ?)

Your mixing Arabs and Muslims...

There isn't a single Democratic country in the entire Middle east (and the gulf) besides Israel.

[Adri]

ops back to the topic:

so why cant arabs get democracy ?

I think they can (indonesia, osv...... and yes they have trubles with there people, but whi havent ?)

Your mixing Arabs and Muslims...

There isn't a single Democratic country in the entire Middle east (and the gulf) besides Israel.

do you think that they cant have democracy ?
what makes you think that ?
is it there religion ?
I am sure nobody thouth of democracy in europe during the middelage..

no some offtopic:
our democracy isnt realy a democracy, no even the usa`s democracy is a real democracy, why ?

democracy is based on the touth that every one will have a posibility to deside, now in usa bush won the election, but gore had 500,000 more votes, it is the same system allmost in every democracy today...

[Mortimer]

The answer is simple yet complicated, rid the world of relgion. Religion is the core of every problem we face in todays society. God doesn't exist and was created as a method to control the population, church etc...

Religion is the reason the jews were presecuted, the reason the arabs hate them, the reason the christians went on crusades etc etc

that and oil...yes evil religion and oil


no some offtopic:
our democracy isnt realy a democracy, no even the usa`s democracy is a real democracy, why ?

democracy is based on the touth that every one will have a posibility to deside, now in usa bush won the election, but gore had 500,000 more votes, it is the same system allmost in every democracy today...

booyaa!

[budanski]

Before the middle eastern countries became the primary source for the worlds oil supply they were poor to the extent that many of the people in that area were starving and living in EXTREME poverty. Though poverty is still prevalent in many places of the middle east what would be the economic impact if the world/US didn't need their oil anymore? It goes without saying that it would be great for the US but with kooks like Mortimer proclaiming their compassion for life and health doesn't it make sense that they should also consider the well being of those peoples of the OPEC countries? No more blood for oil?? I guess their compassion stops at their own shores.

So yes if you think about it, Oil is evil. Especially OPEC

Your next assignment: To prove that video games are to blame for the worlds evil. Make sure you have proof that Hitler was an avid gamer which led him to kill over 6 million jews.

[mocking_loudly]

Spare me the bull****, ok?

One man's bull**** is another man's pile of gold. rofl

[citizen-k]

do you think that they cant have democracy ?
what makes you think that ?
is it there religion ?
I am sure nobody thouth of democracy in europe during the middelage..

no some offtopic:
our democracy isnt realy a democracy, no even the usa`s democracy is a real democracy, why ?

democracy is based on the touth that every one will have a posibility to deside, now in usa bush won the election, but gore had 500,000 more votes, it is the same system allmost in every democracy today...

Bush won according to the American legal way, same as Sharon won according to the Israeli legal way - both based on the right to elect and to be elected. (a procedure which takes place every ~4 years) Unlike EVERY other Arab leader who is a single leader in his country without any chance of been replaced until he is dead.
When Sharon or Bush has an opposition which might replace them all they can do is try and improve - an average Arab leader simply kills the opposition.

Europe went through the middle ages and hundreds of years of monarchy
before they started developing democracy in its early stages.

It apears as if you have NO idea of what is going on in this region called the Middle east. (and I find it hard to understand why the hell should you care...) but what I can tell you is that Arabic culture is NOT ready to adopt democracy, humen rights or woman equality.

Why? try read some books and see movies other then "Sinbad the sailor" - you can also come for a visit to see for yourself.

Here is a short example from the news broadcast I just saw on the news:
A young pregnant 24 year old girl was murdered in her house, in front of her 3 year old child. One of her relatives was arrested as a suspect.
(Her "crime" was probably seeing a man or something... and yes, she is Arabic)

[citizen-k]

The answer is simple yet complicated, rid the world of relgion. Religion is the core of every problem we face in todays society. God doesn't exist and was created as a method to control the population, church etc...

Religion is the reason the jews were presecuted, the reason the arabs hate them, the reason the christians went on crusades etc etc

that and oil...yes evil religion and oil

booyaa!

Communism = Atheism

[Adri]

why the hell do you drag the arabs in to my "what-is-a-real-democracy" I didnt write a **** in that tekst about them...
that democracy part, was not ment to be a part of the rest of my post !

it realy doesnt have a **** to do whit it....thats why I wrote "off topic"
I just didnt want to start a new topic so I placed it in the end of my post as "off topic".......

[Jack Mehoff]

The answer is simple yet complicated, rid the world of relgion. Religion is the core of every problem we face in todays society. God doesn't exist and was created as a method to control the population, church etc...

Religion is the reason the jews were presecuted, the reason the arabs hate them, the reason the christians went on crusades etc etc

that and oil...yes evil religion and oil

booyaa!

Communism = Atheism

I'm an atheist and I hate communist :bash: Honestly, religion is a great thing but too many people make wars over it and for what? Isn't that against the teaching of religion?

[jdbjdb]

(a blowing up buses with kids Nobel prize winner terrorist)
Its time to take Arafat's Nobel Peace Prize away from him. He should have never gotten it in the first place.

[Adri]

(a blowing up buses with kids Nobel prize winner terrorist)
Its time to take Arafat's Nobel Peace Prize away from him. He should have never gotten it in the first place.

yeah I agree ! but I am not in that posision....

by the way: religion:

I dont find it bad, but I wint the people who missunderstand the religion bad (f.eks mr.laden)

[786mine]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist


Why is it that when a "Muslim" terrorist does something, Islam gets bad mouths, but when a non-Muslim commits terrorist activities, he is called JUST a terrorist. I think that is a hyprocitical.

[citizen-k]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist


Why is it that when a "Muslim" terrorist does something, Islam gets bad mouths, but when a non-Muslim commits terrorist activities, he is called JUST a terrorist. I think that is a hyprocitical.

Because most Islamic terrorists do what they do "in the name of Islam" (even if Islam thinks differently) while other terrorists do it for political/national reasons.

Jews are exceptional - a communist Jew was a "Terrorist Jew" even if he did what he did in the name of communism, etc... (which shows how dumb the world can be, accusing a communist according to his religion)

[Commie]

(posted this in an earlier thread but i felt it needed to be posted here as well)

Hi, just would like to say that this will be my first post on this forum. I have been browsing around this forum for a half year now, reading and looking but this one got me pretty outraged so i felt i had to respond.

I mean.
First of all Islam is the second largest religion on earth with around
2,000,000,000 followers.

Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm
(Don't know how exact this is.)

If Islam really is this evil and westernhating religion we must be into some really deep ****! Since every fourth person you see on the streets is one! Second of all to say that Islam and muslims in general do hate and despise all human rights stink racism all the way down to the Third Reich.

Talk about generalisation!

Of course this religion has fanatic believers and followers but please do name one religion, one idealogy or philosphy that doesn't. I bet you can find several millions of catholic people in United States or Europa that have much worse beliefs than your average muslim.

If you know your history (and history does matter) especially when looking on middle east. Most of the states in the mid-east is newly formed because they people who has been living in these lands has been opressed by colonial oppressors like france, england, turkey etc... for decades. How does this count as a factor, first of all mostly all new formed states come up as a totalitarian state more or less then it's followed by some kind of revolution. And to form some kind of goverment in mid-east is extremely hard since the mid-east has an extreme complexity by folk groups and religions and sub religions all with a different political agenda. To name out Islam as the sole burden for the failure of a democratic uprising in these lands get me so mad i don't even know where to start.

Islam is a dynamic and complex and even democratic religion that i think we should embrace, yes hear me out. Every mosque is run by a different Imam who teaches his values and discuss them with his apprentices. Every mosque has a function to learn out the teachings of Islam and to function as forum ( much like this one.) In countries that are run by totalitarian leadership this is most likely the only way to commune with other people and criticise your goverment and later act upon it. Sure there are mosques that are run by hard-liners and Islam conservatists but that can we find in any democratic country as well. The mosques functions as a means of discussion of ideas. So to shoot at these mosque can also be away to interp that we dont want them to do this (freedom of speech?). Almost every demonstration that is held in Iraq has been started from a mosque. A demonstration, hmm, a form of democratic statement or the orders from a mad terrorist telling his terrorists to go and wreak havoc. Instead of just come with outrageous accusations of Western hating muslims we should take our time to learn about Islam so we know more about the muslim world.

I believe that if the muslim world ever are going to experience the wonderful blessings of democratic leadership in governing form it will come through the forums that are called mosques. That's why we can't go arresting clerics just because they have some kind of opinion that we don't like. In a western country these people would have been called political prisoners.

So please stop with the "anti-muslim" bashing!
Since none of the "anti-american" "anti-israel" "anti-war" and "anti-GOP" bashing is allowed on this forum.

[786mine]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist


Why is it that when a "Muslim" terrorist does something, Islam gets bad mouths, but when a non-Muslim commits terrorist activities, he is called JUST a terrorist. I think that is a hyprocitical.

Because most Islamic terrorists do what they do "in the name of Islam" (even if Islam thinks differently) while other terrorists do it for political/national reasons.

Jews are exceptional - a communist Jew was a "Terrorist Jew" even if he did what he did in the name of communism, etc... (which shows how dumb the world can be, accusing a communist according to his religion)

Yeah, exactly my point. These lunatics do not represent Islam or Judaism, still they are called Islamic Terrorist or Terrorist Jew. How stupid!

[citizen-k]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist


Why is it that when a "Muslim" terrorist does something, Islam gets bad mouths, but when a non-Muslim commits terrorist activities, he is called JUST a terrorist. I think that is a hyprocitical.

Because most Islamic terrorists do what they do "in the name of Islam" (even if Islam thinks differently) while other terrorists do it for political/national reasons.

Jews are exceptional - a communist Jew was a "Terrorist Jew" even if he did what he did in the name of communism, etc... (which shows how dumb the world can be, accusing a communist according to his religion)

Yeah, exactly my point. These lunatics do not represent Islam or Judaism, still they are called Islamic Terrorist or Terrorist Jew. How stupid!

You are wrong.

A Palestinian who blows himslef up in a bus is doing it in the name of Islam (his Islam) - so he is an Islamic terrorist.

Crashing into WTC was in the name of Islam - so they are Islamic terrorists.

Being a communist means you can not be Islamic/Jew terrorist (in case you use terror) simply because being a communist means you don't have any religion to begin with...

[786mine]

Islam shouldn't be singled out.

Tell that to the Islamic terrorist


Why is it that when a "Muslim" terrorist does something, Islam gets bad mouths, but when a non-Muslim commits terrorist activities, he is called JUST a terrorist. I think that is a hyprocitical.

Because most Islamic terrorists do what they do "in the name of Islam" (even if Islam thinks differently) while other terrorists do it for political/national reasons.

Jews are exceptional - a communist Jew was a "Terrorist Jew" even if he did what he did in the name of communism, etc... (which shows how dumb the world can be, accusing a communist according to his religion)

Yeah, exactly my point. These lunatics do not represent Islam or Judaism, still they are called Islamic Terrorist or Terrorist Jew. How stupid!

You are wrong.

A Palestinian who blows himslef up in a bus is doing it in the name of Islam (his Islam) - so he is an Islamic terrorist.

Crashing into WTC was in the name of Islam - so they are Islamic terrorists.

Being a communist means you can not be Islamic/Jew terrorist (in case you use terror) simply because being a communist means you don't have any religion to begin with...

Don't tell me I am wrong, when you don't know what you are talking about. These "Muslims" they do not represent Islam and for all of world there to think that they do, is just plain wrong. Unless you have another way to prove your point, I would suggest we leave it at that.

[Javehn]

Don't tell me I am wrong, when you don't know what you are talking about. These "Muslims" they do not represent Islam and for all of world there to think that they do, is just plain wrong. Unless you have another way to prove your point, I would suggest we leave it at that.


Good one .

Where are you from ? Good old USA ? Where are Citizen-K from ? Is it possible , that perhaps , there is a small chance that he knows a little better then you about it ?
So you just go , and continue to bring back good old threads from 1000 years ago . Go go go .

[henksmoeder]

They are not representative for the entire muslim population. Than you are going to say something like, what do you know, citizen-k lives nearer So he knows (wich is a fallacy anyway). I happen to work with a lot of muslims myself, for I am a social worker in a 'working-class' part of town. They are goodwilled, extremely kind, etc. On social aspects, they tend to be further developed than we are.

[786mine]

Don't tell me I am wrong, when you don't know what you are talking about. These "Muslims" they do not represent Islam and for all of world there to think that they do, is just plain wrong. Unless you have another way to prove your point, I would suggest we leave it at that.


Good one .

Where are you from ? Good old USA ? Where are Citizen-K from ? Is it possible , that perhaps , there is a small chance that he knows a little better then you about it ?
So you just go , and continue to bring back good old threads from 1000 years ago . Go go go .

I am a Muslim and I do NOT believe that these fanatics represent me. I don't think Citizen-K knows me personally. I have no problems with Jews, Chiristians. I do not like some of the Hindu customs, but I don't hate them. One of my friend I hang out with is a Jew, still I don't hink he is extreme or anything like that. Any extremist, be it from Pakistan, Israel, American, Germany etc, any form of extremism is just down right wrong as it believes in violence etc. To give you an example, the Nazis were German but, that does not mean all Germans are Jew haters. I hope you get my idea.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

If a 6 year old buys a Koran at a Barnes & Noble in Kansas City, it will be exactly the same Koran available in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. They are all the same - no differing versions (it is the literal word of God to Muslims and cannot be changed). So the 6 year old goes on to read the book, with no intervention by evil Imams, and they will see the passages direcing violence against all the kids at school who don't believe.

A technical question to ponder for those legal scholars among us; since the US Government is a secular government (i.e. non-Muslim), it can be characterized as non-beleving. And since the guiding document for all Muslims directs them to kill all non-belivers, it logically follows that they must violently overthrow the US Government. But any organization advocating the violent overthrow of the US Government is against the law, no? So I would ask how exactly the Islamic faith is allowed tax exempt status & is protected under US law?

Not trying to be a Muslim bashing jackass...it's just always seemed odd to me that a blind eye is turned

[786mine]

If a 6 year old buys a Koran at a Barnes & Noble in Kansas City, it will be exactly the same Koran available in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. They are all the same - no differing versions (it is the literal word of God to Muslims and cannot be changed). So the 6 year old goes on to read the book, with no intervention by evil Imams, and they will see the passages direcing violence against all the kids at school who don't believe.

There is my friend, if one person says a glass is half empty, the other will say, the glass is half full. Even though Muslims take the Qur'an as the Word of God, it is the person left to his [or her] interpretation.

[M_S]

(posted this in an earlier thread but i felt it needed to be posted here as well)

Hi, just would like to say that this will be my first post on this forum. I have been browsing around this forum for a half year now, reading and looking but this one got me pretty outraged so i felt i had to respond.

I mean.
First of all Islam is the second largest religion on earth with around
2,000,000,000 followers.

Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm
(Don't know how exact this is.)

If Islam really is this evil and westernhating religion we must be into some really deep ****! Since every fourth person you see on the streets is one! Second of all to say that Islam and muslims in general do hate and despise all human rights stink racism all the way down to the Third Reich.

Talk about generalisation!

Of course this religion has fanatic believers and followers but please do name one religion, one idealogy or philosphy that doesn't. I bet you can find several millions of catholic people in United States or Europa that have much worse beliefs than your average muslim.

If you know your history (and history does matter) especially when looking on middle east. Most of the states in the mid-east is newly formed because they people who has been living in these lands has been opressed by colonial oppressors like france, england, turkey etc... for decades. How does this count as a factor, first of all mostly all new formed states come up as a totalitarian state more or less then it's followed by some kind of revolution. And to form some kind of goverment in mid-east is extremely hard since the mid-east has an extreme complexity by folk groups and religions and sub religions all with a different political agenda. To name out Islam as the sole burden for the failure of a democratic uprising in these lands get me so mad i don't even know where to start.

Islam is a dynamic and complex and even democratic religion that i think we should embrace, yes hear me out. Every mosque is run by a different Imam who teaches his values and discuss them with his apprentices. Every mosque has a function to learn out the teachings of Islam and to function as forum ( much like this one.) In countries that are run by totalitarian leadership this is most likely the only way to commune with other people and criticise your goverment and later act upon it. Sure there are mosques that are run by hard-liners and Islam conservatists but that can we find in any democratic country as well. The mosques functions as a means of discussion of ideas. So to shoot at these mosque can also be away to interp that we dont want them to do this (freedom of speech?). Almost every demonstration that is held in Iraq has been started from a mosque. A demonstration, hmm, a form of democratic statement or the orders from a mad terrorist telling his terrorists to go and wreak havoc. Instead of just come with outrageous accusations of Western hating muslims we should take our time to learn about Islam so we know more about the muslim world.

I believe that if the muslim world ever are going to experience the wonderful blessings of democratic leadership in governing form it will come through the forums that are called mosques. That's why we can't go arresting clerics just because they have some kind of opinion that we don't like. In a western country these people would have been called political prisoners.

So please stop with the "anti-muslim" bashing!
Since none of the "anti-american" "anti-israel" "anti-war" and "anti-GOP" bashing is allowed on this forum.

i agree! c woot