Anti-Americanism in Europe and blaming America

[Luxembourger]

IF I read all these discussions , most blaming USA , I just wonder : it would have been better that the USA and the UK had not liberated Europe. So there wouldn t have been all those stupid leftist brainwashed socialist coments blaming the US for everything . Why ? Because if the Nazis would have conquered whole Europe and won the war..,,or if the UDSSR had invaded Europe and opressed the people because no US TROOPS were stationed in Europe we would not live a free world and those people wouldn t even spend their time on the Internet to read conspiracy theories about the US like " the JEWS and the americans planed the 11th Sept bythemselves. Those who blame Ameirca for everything are the same who blame the JEws for everything. THe good non-moderate Arabs , the good socialist-left Rebels killing inoccents in Columbia or Che Quevara himself seems to get more respect by those radical liberal left pseudo intellctuals than real politicians like Adenauer , Willy Brandf, Reagan etc...


What would Europe look like now without any American liberation , financial help for reconstruction or push for the the contsturction of the EU and protecttion against the Soviet Union ? YEs America made gains of helping us by getting some business deals and establishing firms,,,so and ? that is not an evil thing that s trade and you don t harm anyone expcept some Anti Bubble Global people.

I was for the war ,,it might have been too pushy and done without the UN...but really the role of the UN is worthless look what happend in Sebrenica , Kosovo or Somalia ,,,UN did acheive nothing ! ALways arguing at the UN until more people die or Terrorists prepare themselves to blow up some towers or buses .

I am not PRO BUsh if you may think but I agree that he did the right thing to finish the job! YEs If I were American I would vote for WEsley CLark next year but I remain RPo American and I owe them a lot for what they did for voer 50 years for Europe . And the Radical LEFTist anarchists anti everything just want to produce conspiracy theories to llook the WEst bad !


I NEVER HEAD A NON-moderate LEFTIST ANTI AMERICAN blame NORTH KOREA FOR IT S POLICY IT S ALWAYS THE SAME SCRAP like AMEIRCA THE IMPERIALISTS AMERICA THE EVIL AMERICA THE DEVIL .........it s realy disgusting to hear this from Europeans who have no idea about what the real world looks like and who are just based on their paperstuff or internet conspiracy stuff .

I wished those new born Che Quevaras WEstern , America haters would have lived 1 YEAR under STALINS era or would go now to North KOREA .

OH bye the way ...while using the Internet to find anti-american conspiracy theories just remember who created the Internet .
IF the US ARMY had not createtd the Internet you would even surf here and open your mouth so widly and speak such a bull**** .
We have all one AIm : to live in peace whatever our religiion is but don t blame all the time the nation that rescued Bonsia KOSOVO EURope and has the guts to fight the terrorists and dictator trash . Because we Europeans we love to enjoy freedom but never fight for it as we have forgotten what it menas to be tyranised by a dicttator for 6 years like Hitler did with us ,

SO I would say that spending some time under a dictatorship would change your mind and attitude about the US and cry for it to kick ass

[Adri]

no this is just for your sig.

we ow usa something yes, but IF usa does something against humenrigths; sould we then suport that kinds of terrorist acts ? (remember I wrote "IF")

[Luxembourger]

humanrights ok you mean detinig terrorists wihtout giving them a lawyer?
to you think it s worth to give every terrorist a lawyer so that he gets out of jail and continues to slaughter?

Or do you mean the Anti-personal mine issue ?

I can t remember Amnesty international saying a word when the 9/11 happend ? I just remebered some people in the Arab world celebrating the attacks on Tv and some peope in Europe that AMerica deserved these attacks.

[citizen-k]

no this is just for your sig.

we ow usa something yes, but IF usa does something against humenrigths; sould we then suport that kinds of terrorist acts ? (remember I wrote "IF")

You realy don't have any connection to reality, huh? :bash:

Europe is supporting/supported gvernments such as:
Iraq, Syria, Iran, Lybia, Jordan, Egypt :oops:

What does THOSE countries have got to do with HUMAN RIGHTS?!?!?!?

You (or your country, or your neighbour country) don't give a DAMN about human rights! all you care about it OIL, OIL and OIL!!!
Stop mambeling about human rights - for crying out loud - Lybia is running the human rights committee in the UN!!! rofl

[Adri]

lol, I live in norway.
we are floding with OIL, we DONT NEED MORE OIL rofl

oh, I am mean this: please dont send oil...I am going to drown if you send any oil....allmost cant breath all ready in all this oil rofl

and than:
why did usa suport and used bases in uzbekistan to attack afghanistan, when uzbekistan is agains humanrigths and democracy ???


ps: dont generalize europe! it realy a lot of diffrent countries and a lot of diffrent people !

[b00n]

Well didnt the USA support Osama Bin Laden during the Cold War and gave him a excellent training?

Every goverment in the last 100 years ****ed up something, its in 99% not the public to blame.
Its stupid to hate a nation.

But i guess this is one of those endless discussions.

[jdbjdb]

We got lots of oil here in America, and alot more in Alaska, time to start drilling in Alaska and tell Saudi Arabia to kiss our ass. :D

[Luxembourger]

YES I agree and I don t understand why Europe does not fully support an democratic israel , a country where lections are held and that tires to protect itself by all means . I don t understand why left European Politicans are so Pro Palestine PRO ARAFAt DAMN that makes me angry.
THe jews suffered so much in Europe during WW2 why don t wee support them at least now !!! I am christian but I a appreciate the JEWs becuase they were alway always always attacked persecuted during histtory ,,,why don t we support them !!!!! ??? THE JEWS never never attacked a free democratic nation in order to opress them and expand it s religion . But the NON MOderate muslims are today at war with : CHINAs regions, INDIA, Israel, Philinnies wehre they want to kick Christians , ALgeria where they kill their own people , and remeber all the Wars in Africa

seems to be an ugly world :-(

[citizen-k]

lol, I live in norway.
we are floding with OIL, we DONT NEED MOR OIL rofl

and than:
why did usa suport and used bases in uzbekistan to attack afghanistan, when uzbekistan is agains humanrigths and democracy ???

Do I look like an American to you? ask Americans...

So if it's not oil, what is it then? plain simple Jew hate? :|

What makes you so intrested in what is going on here? (there are many other "war zones" around the world)
And what makes you compare a nation that is blowing up buses with kids - just for killing kids to a nation that defends her kids, and sometimes, by accident, hurts civilians - not as a target? (and the only reason those civilians get hurt is because they are been used as humen shield)

[b00n]

You need a calendar dude, its 2003. Not 1944. Stop living in the past. p-)

[Jack Mehoff]

Well didnt the USA support Osama Bin Laden during the Cold War and gave him a excellent training?

Every goverment in the last 100 years f*** up something, its in 99% not the public to blame.
Its stupid to hate a nation.

But i guess this is one of those endless discussions.

Yes, we supported Bin Laden for a good cause by kicking the Russian out.

[Luxembourger]

BOOn you are right the US did support Bin laden ,,but not only america what about European nations that supported the Afghans to kick out the russians out of Afghanistan ..or what about the FRench government selling a nuclear plant to Saddam .. Did they wrong did they good ?
One thing you can never be guilty of your actions if one day your best friend betrays you and turns mad and become a terrorist. So it s not fair to blame America and EUROPE that they did support Saddam before . Just remember the neighbour of IRaq , IRAN what islamic regime was ruling the coutnry at that time.

[b00n]

Well didnt the USA support Osama Bin Laden during the Cold War and gave him a excellent training?

Every goverment in the last 100 years f*** up something, its in 99% not the public to blame.
Its stupid to hate a nation.

But i guess this is one of those endless discussions.

Yes, we supported Bin Laden for a good cause by kicking the Russian out.

And dumped him when he had the job done. :|

[Jack Mehoff]

Speaking of oil, are we going to use natural resources to power up our cars or what? I thought they suppose to make cars that run by solar and natural resources a long time ago. Some people do have cars like that but it's way too expensive for the average american. I hope oil become absolete ASAP

[Adri]

Do I look like an American to you? ask Americans...
So if it's not oil, what is it then? plain simple Jew hate?

the question was for all, but you can anwser it if you like to ;)

sorry if I looks like a jew hater, but I have looked at the post befor an nobody have ever told the palestinian perspective in this forum.

I will ignore the rest of that post, cause that is an other topic for that.

but what: there are two conflicts on tv rigth now:

americas war on terror
and the tradicional israeli tanks vs suicide bomber stuff

thats why.... I realy dont have any thing ells to write about :lol:

[Jack Mehoff]

Well didnt the USA support Osama Bin Laden during the Cold War and gave him a excellent training?

Every goverment in the last 100 years f*** up something, its in 99% not the public to blame.
Its stupid to hate a nation.

But i guess this is one of those endless discussions.

Yes, we supported Bin Laden for a good cause by kicking the Russian out.

And dumped him when he had the job done. :|

What do you expect? Russian retreated, mission accomplished

[Luxembourger]

You will see one day if we the Western countries don t need Arab oil anymore and when they don t get anymore our money that would be a tough time for us . Because then the non moderate Arabs would expand their terrorists atttacks , being so furious that we dumped them as we found another substitue for Oil. They could balckmail us to keep on buying their oil .
I want a substitute for oil too ,,,,you really think that wars and conflicts with non-mopderate fanatic muslims would decrease?

On an historical note , what religion did first start it s attacks on Europe expanding their relligion in the 7th century after Jesus Christs ?
Just rememberthe crusades were lin 12th century as a response to what ? ....huh uh does anyone what rellay happend and who attacked Europe in an religious issue ,,,,there was no oil at that time .The SPaniards and the Frnech had to fight hard in the middle ages to get rid of the muslims in Europe

[Adri]

you know that the USSR isnt the same as RUSSIA......I know you do, but dont use russia when you mean ussr, it is two widly diffrent things

[He219]

Luxembourger, I appreciate your sentiments. :)
You are a miniority in a sea of liberalist empathizers.
People forget so easily.....

Btw, didn't Al Gore say that HE invented the Internet? rofl

[Adri]

The SPaniards and the Frnech had to fight hard in the middle ages to get rid of the muslims in Europe

well to say:

during the muslim ocupation of spain, the country flowished (spelling ?)
and muslims and cristians lived side bye side, this is one of not so many times that the cristians and muslims have lived side bye side whit out shooting at each others... wich allso shows that it isnt inposible (spelling? again... :cantbeli: )

[Luxembourger]

I don t think so it is a minority in Europe
The media focused too much on Anti- war and Anti US rallies ,,so everybody thinks now every European is an America hater which is false.
The media in Europe gave America a flase view of European opinions.

Just one thing
we have 3 three groups in Eruope
1) those who backed the war in IRaq and are RPo American
2) those who love american but didn t not agree that america should go to war..but who love americans and freeodm .
3) those who always hate America , most are non moderate socilaists , radical leftists or people who have found a new trend to be cool..to wear Che Guevara T shirts and open their mouth.and speak anti american **** and buy everday books like BUsh the evil, or America the terrorist nation .
Well if you read such books only you will get brainwashed .

[96B]

Luxembourger, I also appreciate your sentiments :)
I always keep in mind the fact that Europe is a very diverse place, and France and Germany do NOT represent everyone over there.

It will be a very long time before we no longer need oil. It goes into MANY more things than our vehicles, but I agree that it will be great when we no longer need their oil.

Al Gore is a moron.

[Adri]

well I dont know where I am on that list:

-I am against usa`s war in irak but not in afganisthan (no I dont suport saddam, but couldent you just say "saddam is evil and bad" insted of "we realy REALY think he have wmd.....realy!"

-I am against usa`s WAY of helping out in the israeli-palestinian conflict (i am not against there help but on who they do it)

-I am not against usa`s way of controling there own country except:

*there voting system (gore had 500,000 vots more than bush, but bush won.....we have the same here in norway)

*there ways of "helping" the nature....

*there way of hanging there flags (every where, any time) yeah, it realy pisses me off :lol:

*there weapon "controle"

[Luxembourger]

ADRI I understnad your views

I had the smae opinions than you did long before the war in IRAQ
BUT I figured out that what happens if Saddam had really cheated the UN had tryied to sell some military stuff to terrorists? YES SADDAM is not a relglious person but he and the terrorists have one foe AMERICa so why won t they make a deal ?

On the Palesitinian conflict ,,,yes we may argue that ISRAEL is occupyng territories .....but me personnaly came to the conclusion that in Palsetine there was never e democratic free elected leard unlike Isreal
and secondly Israel had rights to settle down on that land too ...and who agreed that they would be settled down theire ? The UN if I am right
I wish the Palestinians a state and welath and peace but this won t work unless they stop their propagand stuff on their TV Channels ( how to blowu p buses ) and stop HAMAS ......this won t happend ,,,,,,as Hamas is too much integraded in the population and brainwashed young inoccent Palestinians in school to hate JEws and Chrisitians

[Luxembourger]

One more thing how many Europeans once watched the Palestine channel ?
I do not understand arabic language but I see the images and the images they show during their breaks show 100% hate toward israel and have clips about how to blow up buses and tanks

I just bought a satelite dish to get more different views as I don t want to stick to one view and read one source as most extrem left liberlas do .

[Adri]

ADRI I understnad your views

I had the smae opinions than you did long before the war in IRAQ
BUT I figured out that what happens if Saddam had really cheated the UN had tryied to sell some military stuff to terrorists? YES SADDAM is not a relglious person but he and the terrorists have one foe AMERICa so why won t they make a deal ?


iraq:
I am not agains the attacks just the way of justifi (spelling?) them....

israel-palestin:
I think that israel-palestinian thing can be discused in an other topic
you know...the topic where I are geting my ass kicked :backhand:


I must confest that I was against the iraqi war for full, befor it started.
but then I didnt know what that was going around in there...

[cut]

THe jews suffered so much in Europe during WW2 why don t wee support them at least now !!! I am christian but I a appreciate the JEWs becuase they were alway always always attacked persecuted during histtory ,,,why don t we support them !!!!! ??? THE JEWS never never attacked a free democratic nation in order to opress them and expand it s religion . But the NON MOderate muslims are today at war with : CHINAs regions, INDIA, Israel, Philinnies wehre they want to kick Christians , ALgeria where they kill their own people , and remeber all the Wars in Africa


that is only one point of view.. the two countries that have the most jewish influence are israel and america, israel is constantly at war with palestine and the US always seems to be at war against one third world country or another (or against a 2nd world one for a good 40 years)

america can also fall into the christian catogaory of countries often at war and so does the UK, my country. a lot of the warring in coutries in africa have been christian.

throughout history christian europe was the continent that was most often engulft in war.

It doesn't help blaming the muslims, you make it sound like you hate them.

[citizen-k]

ADRI I understnad your views

I had the smae opinions than you did long before the war in IRAQ
BUT I figured out that what happens if Saddam had really cheated the UN had tryied to sell some military stuff to terrorists? YES SADDAM is not a relglious person but he and the terrorists have one foe AMERICa so why won t they make a deal ?


iraq:
I am not agains the attacks just the way of justifi (spelling?) them....

israel-palestin:
I think that israel-palestinian thing can be discused in an other topic
you know...the topic where I are geting my ass kicked :backhand:


I must confest that I was against the iraqi war for full, befor it started.
but then I didnt know what that was going around in there...

Got your ass kicked? huh! I'm on a weak day dude! ;)

I just want to hear a logic explanation from you why getting on a bus, looking at babies, woman, children and blowing everyone up is a right action from your (twisted?) point of view.

I can explain why launching a missile from f-16 is moral - because it's more moral as an Israeli to kill 5-10 Palestinians then letting a suicide bomber to kill 20 Israelis. Nobody is launching missiles in order to kill civilians - it's Palestinians fault they mix civilians and terrorists just in order to get a positive public opnion. Since the public (you) is dumb - it works!

[citizen-k]

THe jews suffered so much in Europe during WW2 why don t wee support them at least now !!! I am christian but I a appreciate the JEWs becuase they were alway always always attacked persecuted during histtory ,,,why don t we support them !!!!! ??? THE JEWS never never attacked a free democratic nation in order to opress them and expand it s religion . But the NON MOderate muslims are today at war with : CHINAs regions, INDIA, Israel, Philinnies wehre they want to kick Christians , ALgeria where they kill their own people , and remeber all the Wars in Africa


that is only one point of view.. the two countries that have the most jewish influence are israel and america, israel is constantly at war with palestine and the US always seems to be at war against one third world country or another (or against a 2nd world one for a good 40 years)

america can also fall into the christian catogaory of countries often at war and so does the UK, my country. a lot of the warring in coutries in africa have been christian.

throughout history christian europe was the continent that was most often engulft in war.

It doesn't help blaming the muslims, you make it sound like you hate them.

Jewish influence? rofl

Thank God we have all that oil so we can influence things in this world! rofl

[cut]

you, must admit that "jewish" countries are among the richest in the world, if not for the violence israel would be one of the nicest places in the world to live don't you think?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

One can say that Israel is the frontline of civilization. Europe is comftrable with keeping the mid-east flames hot because Israel absorbs the major waves of Arab-Muslim terrorism (recently, also the Us started to get hit by it). That explains why France stands on its back feet for Saddam and Hamas and why Europe flowing billions of dollar to the Palestinian Authority although they know it goes to Arafat and his terrorist. Instead of putting pressure to impeech Arafat and let the Palestinians a chance for less suicidal leadership they keep empowering this disasterous arch-terrorist.

All Europeans, better pray that Israel survive, because after Israel fall - Europe will be the next target...

P.S. We won't fall. We are here to stay!

[ArmoredDov_D9]

you, must admit that "jewish" countries are among the richest in the world, if not for the violence israel would be one of the nicest places in the world to live don't you think?

We can't be blamed for being successful... :fork: (actually, we can... It is almost 2000 of our history :( and even today, it seems that Jewish success trigers Jewish hatred).

[cut]

One can say that Israel is the frontline of civilization. Europe is comftrable with keeping the mid-east flames hot because Israel absorbs the major waves of Arab-Muslim terrorism (recently, also the Us started to get hit by it). That explains why France stands on its back feet for Saddam and Hamas and why Europe flowing billions of dollar to the Palestinian Authority although they know it goes to Arafat and his terrorist. Instead of putting pressure to impeech Arafat and let the Palestinians a chance for less suicidal leadership they keep empowering this disasterous arch-terrorist.

All Europeans, better pray that Israel survive, because after Israel fall - Europe will be the next target...

P.S. We won't fall. We are here to stay!

bollocks to thatconspiracy theory, europe wants israel to stop fanning the flames of muslim terrorism muslim countries are thrid world now, and in a few years the west will move on from oil and they will be ****ed, to be honest all europeans want is for peace in israel and palestine and an end to the cycle of hate in the middle east

[cut]

We can't be blamed for being successful... :fork: (actually, we can... It is almost 2000 of our history :( and even today, it seems that Jewish success trigers Jewish hatred).

I wasn't having a go.. :|

[Luxembourger]

It doesn't help blaming the muslims, you make it sound like you hate them.


Really?`What makes you think that ? Did I say all Muslims ?
REad my comment about Palesitinians ...I said that they should have a stae live in peace instead of being brainmwashed by Hamas and their media.
DO you think I am anti muslim if I saiy it is disgusting when Palestinians childrens are brainwashed atr school to hate Israel and the west?

By the way in most of my comments I said : the non-moderate muslims !
DO I hate Muslims if I say that Muslim women are badly treated by their men ? That women have no right to express them selves ? SO ?
I do blame the muslim non moderates the fanatics those who never want peace those wo are at war with everybody China India Israel USA Europe !

If I hate muslims I would not have supported the NATO attacks in 1999 to stop massmurder by orthodox christians on muslim civilians . So ?
YES I love America, Europe and Israel but I repsect also those moderate muslims who just want to trade have their business and don t want to get mixed with terrorists muslims which are growing and this is the realility ...the REalllity is that muslims terrorists are growing that as a big threat.
If I hate muslims I would go to a mosque here in my country and blowmyself up or smash hand grenadaes. But I don t do it because they don t bother me as I know that these here are peaceful .....those in FRance there you have some mosques where HATE towards the WEst is spreaded and that s a big problem

[cut]

what makes you love israel?

I mean I can understand loving your homeland and other countries but do you have a reason?

[Kampfhamster]

Many peoples in Switzerland think that the war in Iraq is wrong.

Well, I think it was right so eliminate the Baash-regime in Iraq, but they should have dont it in 1991.

There was no good reason to invade Iraq, in my opinion.

[cut]

There was no good reason to invade Iraq, in my opinion.

FUN, damn it! is that not reason enough?

[Luxembourger]

FIRST I LOVE AMERICA because they liberated my country from NAZI **** in 1944. Then they helped to build our economy and makes us live better and protected us against Soviet invasion possibility
Then the American s solved 2 conflicts in the BAlkans that we Europeans were not able to handle alone ,,,because we Europeans ,,,it is sad to say,,,argue for months before it is too late , Remember what happend when Poland was attacked by GErmany in 1939 ? FRance could have invaded Germany at that time with other European forces to avoid a WW2 .

IT s always the same deja-vu we watch watch blame the other for whatever they do but we don t have a solltuion neither to the IRAQ issue nor to the ISRAEL-Palestine conflict. But if someone wants to make a step forward we are quickly there to blame and criticise. And I think that sucks., SO well in the US I was once and I enjoyed that country and I love the people . I haven t been in Israel but I appreciate their people who they managed to build their own state , fight many wars and face nor with courage daily attacks on civilians .

PS I do love my country as well but I just hope Europe will once give up it s cowardess especially some countries I don t want to mention . Does that mean we should always go to war to solve a problem ? NO but at least we should not blame a country that khelped us a lot and realised , which we don t , that IRAQ was cheating the world community since 1991 until the end of OIF . NO country had the guts to come up again with the IRAQ ISSue in the UN ,,,the IRAQ issue was damn forgotten and we didn t know what was going on in IRAQ . YEs there are bigger threats than IRAQ like the NOrth korea issue which is damn dangerous . Shall the USA go to war with North KROEA ? IT would already have kicked ass to North korea if we China were no it s neighbour. I would not attack by myself a foe if I were not sure about what his friends and neighbours would do , whether back him or declare war too . SO the USA does handle the situation in NOrth Korea in a good way as there is no other possibility yet to solve the North korea issue .WOuld the US know that China would not interfer in a military conflict the US had already neutralized the north korean nuclear plants by air.


I think the world need a worldpolice ,,and it s a good thing that the world power right now is America which did so much for countries ...yes those who don t lke America may not agree with me but that s my opinion.

[Adri]

I just want to hear a logic explanation from you why getting on a bus, looking at babies, woman, children and blowing everyone up is a right action from your (twisted?) point of view.

I can explain why launching a missile from f-16 is moral - because it's more moral as an Israeli to kill 5-10 Palestinians then letting a suicide bomber to kill 20 Israelis. Nobody is launching missiles in order to kill civilians - it's Palestinians fault they mix civilians and terrorists just in order to get a positive public opnion. Since the public (you) is dumb - it works!

I cant explain something I do not stand for, I said it befor and I say it again:
I do not suport the muslim terrorists when they target civilian, if they had targeted the military it would have been better...

but, in MOST of the attack from your air planes, civilians die... mainly pga the terrorist is in a large group of people... but you know, its just to wait and da da civilians wont die when the strike take place....

[Luxembourger]

Many peoples in Switzerland think that the war in Iraq is wrong.


Well I travel a lot to Switzerland as it is one of the most clean and beautiful country in Europe .
What I don understand is that you the Swiss spend so much money in military, play war games in the mountains , have barracks at every corners
and everbody has a gun at home and likes to go to shooting ranges .
Who do you frighten that you have such an well trained ARMY ,, huge barracks at the highest altitude and flying with F-18 during Airshows ? You are a neutral country so no need to have heavy armor and F-18s

[Adri]

they should have a stae live in peace instead of being brainmwashed by Hamas and their media.


do you think that every thing on the CNN or any western tv station is the full trouth and noting ells ???

you dont even get the FULL (then I mean the absolut full) trouth in a cort room... so why exspect the news to get it to you ??

the CNN dilivers there news in an american perspective in the USA and in an european perspective in europe, do you realy think they would send something the people and politicans would find hard to belive ???
you will allmost never gett the FULL trouth, if you dont see in whit you own eyes...and still you will get it in your perspective, that is because people are diffrent and have diffrent point of view....

[Kampfhamster]

@Luxembourger: we need such a big army to make sure, that we stay neutral.

Our neutrality is called "armed neutrality", everything else isn't worth the paper on which it is written.

[martinexsquaddie]

Now I like americans.
But I'm not a Big fan of the Bush Administration either he is as Dumb as he some time acts has really bad advisiors or just does'nt care.
Either way has'nt cottoned on to the fact if your going to strut on the world stage it helps if you at least try to get people on your side.
Now Bill pulled some Dodgy stunt like the cruise missile attack on the sudanise "chemical weapons plant" and still managed to get the rest of the world to like him.
What gives you got Hollywood the worlds film industry surely its possible to make George look Good :lol:
Getting into a bitch fight with the french was a mistake they are the world champions at sulking :D But they don't rule europe although they like to imply that fact.
Loseing the WTO talks was a big mistake Big corporations are good for making money not good for setting rules and having every elected offical up to there neck in debt to these guys is not good.
Making fun of americans is fun but then I take the piss out of every body else except the Belgians because I suddenly come over all sleepy when ever i think of bel..........

[mocking_loudly]

I make fun of every ones nationality equaly - im a humanist. rofl

[citizen-k]

you, must admit that "jewish" countries are among the richest in the world, if not for the violence israel would be one of the nicest places in the world to live don't you think?

rofl

Rich as people in Dubai? Kuweit? Saudi Arabia? The Balgiuns who ripped (and raped) off Africa?

What kind of KKK Bull**** is that? "you, must admit that "jewish" countries are among the richest in the world"?

There is only one Jewish country in the world - Israel, and it is far from been rich.

I wonder if you are saying things like that because you are ignorant or because your jealous.

[Saranof]

I seem to remind myself that RUSSIA lost many more in WW2...
Does that mean we should obey them, and not say a word when they invade countrys? :|

It is a stupid as it sounds. Yes, the US DID help out during the world wars. So did most countrys. The US did because they HAD TO. They would be next otherwise.

So stop whining when someone says something that you don't like. It's called democracy, and you can't bomb us for it cos we live in the west.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Europe is crawling and kiss the feet of terrorist, ruthless dictators and mass-murderers. It does it for mere interests. They don't care for **** about human crimes and they willing to let those murdererds to slaughter Jews and Arabs as long they get their way (oil, bussiness and "immunity" from terror attacks).

Why should Europe support Arafat? Why should France fight for Hamas?
Every reasonable man understands that Arafat and Hamas are the greatest obstacles for peace and should be removed ASAP.

Those who support Arafat and Hamas cannot support peace, sorry.

[seventy6er]

I always keep in mind the fact that Europe is a very diverse place, and France and Germany do NOT represent everyone over there.


Please keep in mind that the French and the German government (and their politics) don't represent everyone over there. :bash:

Schröder for example was elected with only 8.000 votes more than his opponent Stoiber. I seriously doubt, that he will be elected again in 2006.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Yes, not all Europe are hypocrist as France and Belgium. Italy (the leaders of the anti-terrorist line in Europe), Holand (The Netherlands) and Denmark have seen the light and understood that Europe must aid to the international war against terror (led by the USA and Israel) rather than remain neutral and function as a terrorist hideout.

[NcDeuce]

Damn Frenchies, if it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German. And if the US didn't issue condoms in WW2, maybe France would be a nice place.

[jdbjdb]

People in Europe hate it when Americans bring up the wars on the past, like France, of course France and the League of Naions sat on their ass and let Germany break the Treaty of Versaille, and WWII broke out, they think American wasnt to take over the world, which we don't, Europe hates us for our support of Israel, but I really did love it when the French President and German Chancellor, said they would veto, any war resolution, and of course we said screw you and we did it anyway :D
If we did not act on Iraq then the UN would be in the process of becoming another League of Naions, what is the point in having laws if were not going to enforce them?

[Fargin]

I have ambivalent feelings about many things, even US and the war in Iraq.

Any politician with a decent amount of integrity knows how to lie when it's required. I don't think Saddam was a threat to anyone, execpt his people. His removal can be a good thing, but it seemed a bit rushed to me. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict wont siege, before both parts get tired of burying their sons and daughters.

Denmark is divided, and is a terrorist hideout.

[jdbjdb]

If Saddam would have allowed the UN weapons inspectors to do their job, Saddam would still be in power, and his two sons, Udai would be out raping and beating women, Qusai well he would be doing the same thing just he wouldn't tell anyone about it. I heard Udai was a ****star in the Saudi underground **** industry :D well before his accident, How can several men with AK-47's stand next to the car and still miss?

[perdurabo]

meany ppl forget that europe isn't one big country! and meany think that europe is ending with German border first learn geography grrr BTW with new EU Constitution in about 50-100yrs EU will be one country:]

[Andy]

... to the international war against terror (led by the USA and Israel) ...

Seid wann bekämpft man Terror mit Terror :bash:

When you not understand this than go to www.google.com and translaitet!

This is the wrong way!

Andy

[citizen-k]

... to the international war against terror (led by the USA and Israel) ...

Seid wann bekämpft man Terror mit Terror :bash:

When you not understand this than go to www.google.com and translaitet!

This is the wrong way!

Andy


"karova nie vada" :bash:

It's russian, you can ask a russian friend to translate it for you!

[perdurabo]

CK if you realy want to write in Russian please use cyrylica i'm starting to learn Russian and it's realy hard to find out what do you mean i'm geesing that it's "cow not water":] but i can be wrong:]

[citizen-k]

CK if you realy want to write in Russian please use cyrylica i'm starting to learn Russian and it's realy hard to find out what do you mean i'm geesing that it's "cow not water":] but i can be wrong:]

Isn't it "blood is not water"?

[Andy]

Nothing against Israel or America. I have many friends and admitted from the two countries. However I find both governments ****! Mr. Bush is a Badly Ill man. And the goverment in Israel too.

@citizen-k

Sorry, but I do not have Russian friends. :hug:

Andy

[Tiger]

However I find both governments ****! Mr. Bush is a Badly Ill man. And the goverment in Israel too.

I agree with you, Andy... ;)

[citizen-k]

Nothing against Israel or America. I have many friends and admitted from the two countries. However I find both governments ****! Mr. Bush is a Badly Ill man. And the goverment in Israel too.

@citizen-k

Sorry, but I do not have Russian friends. :hug:

Andy

I sympathize russians...

Care to explain why the Israeli government is so bad?
Cause it seems to be a born-child opinion.

[citizen-k]

However I find both governments ****! Mr. Bush is a Badly Ill man. And the goverment in Israel too.

I agree with you, Andy... ;)

You are welcome to explain also...

[Anzac]

I think the israelis has them selfs to blame for all the terror bombings.

Lets look at history:
If they in 1948 had chosen a policy of coxistens instead of deportation, land acquisition, etnic-clensing and 3.8 million palestinians as refugees things in the mideast might have looked different.

Israel is the record holder for breaking UN resolutions.
And we have to remember that USA vetos all the realy harsh ones..

Have a look at what amnesty international has to say about ocupied territorys 2003: http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/isr-summary-eng
(the report is not only about Israeli crimes but also Palestinian)


I thank the USA for what they did during and a few years after WWII it was the right thing to do.

But all the wrongs since then (from a humanitarian viewpoint, not political)makes me sad..
Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile, Afganistan. Their suport of Israeli crimes against humanity and the embargo against Irak that killed 500.000 civilians. (that is the low count) And countless other "intervetions" all over the world have transformed them from being the hero do-gooders of WWII into the bullies of the world. NO goal can be worth the price the civilians of other countries have payed for the American freedom.

It is plain logic to me that when you treat someone bad they will hold a grudge. Why are you now so surprised and angry when payback comes?



(before i get flamed, etnic-clensing is NOT always the same thing as mass murder, as seen in Bosnia, Kosovo and Rawanda. Forcing people to move or deportation becuse of etnic origin is also etnic-clensing and a crime against humanity)

[citizen-k]

It is plain logic to me that when you treat someone bad they will hold a grudge. Why are you now so surprised and angry when payback comes?



You say that to Israelis as European? rofl

Read some history books before you come here to show your ignorance

in public.

Read who started the war at 1948, 1956, 1967 (why it was started), 1973 or why Israel invaded Lebanon (Arafat's Fatah-land) also read how come Iraq didn't have nuclear weapon during the 1st gulf war or who started the last war although 99% of the Palestinians were under PA government.

After that read about those who help "human right" protector countries such as Iran, Lybia, Syria and Iraq (After no woman were laft to rape or diamonds to steal in Africa)

[Andy]

That is evenly my opinion. Ipursue this Konflickt already am enough, and its my own opinion formed. A question: Who was in this country first ? hmmm


That is evenly my opinion. Ipursue this Konflickt already am enough, and its my own opinion formed. A question: Who was in this country first ? hmmm

One must see simply the reasons for the terrorist attacks. A reason is for example the poverty... And there Millitaeri force is the wrong means.

And even. also a little amplifier-change-eat for the other one.

Andy

[Adri]

andy: the israelis have deen in that same spot since year 0.......

but yes the arabs can have been there longer, but I dont know who of those two people that have been there for the longest time.

however befor ww2 the same spot was under muslim control, that migth be the reson for hatred... but why aint the muslims pissed up at england ? (if I doesnt remember wrong they were the ones who made the borders)

but lol: the english people must realy suck at setting up borders, india-pakistan and israel-palestinia (do I think...) can someone ells come up with some african countries ?

[citizen-k]

That is evenly my opinion. Ipursue this Konflickt already am enough, and its my own opinion formed. A question: Who was in this country first ? hmmm


A. Jews were there first
B. Heared of the bible?
C. So??? It makes it ok to blow up buses?


One must see simply the reasons for the terrorist attacks. A reason is for example the poverty... And there Millitaeri force is the wrong means.

And even. also a little amplifier-change-eat for the other one.

Andy

Where is all the money? Arafat took it! (Built some palaces with it and the rest is in Switzerland)

Still, does it justify blowing up buses?!?!?

Remember 1944-1947? Jews tried to escape Europe and come to Israel but the British government disallowed it - Nobody started blowing up buses in London in order to terrorise them!
(There were some attacks on the British army while others joined the british army to help fighting the Nazis)

[citizen-k]

andy: the israelis have deen in that same spot since year 0.......

but yes the arabs can have been there longer, but I dont know who of those two people that have been there for the longest time.

however befor ww2 the same spot was under muslim control, that migth be the reson for hatred... but why aint the muslims pissed up at england ? (if I doesnt remember wrong they were the ones who made the borders)

but lol: the english people must realy suck at setting up borders, india-pakistan and israel-palestinia (do I think...) can someone ells come up with some african countries ?

Turks-Franch/British-State of Israel

Prior to that, Crusaders, Romans, Napoleon... and some others...

Jews were always there, and so did Muslims, but since judism is older

Jews were there first.

[Adri]

but wouldent it be wrong to use the fact that the jwes was there first today ?

I think that is "to" old to be used as a fact, you must see on the situvation as it is today

[Andy]

sorry but that is wrong! You say '' The Jews came 1944. And befor 1944 were was there?? hmm!

bevor anybody say '' You are a Nazi'' -- I'm not a Nazi, I will freedom all over the World. The Question is: Can two People-groups live in the same Staate? - I say yes. And many People too. Since 15 Jears I wantet to travel to Israel but I cant! Its to dangerus. Isarel is a beautifull land but the goverment is destroud the land.

Andy

[Desert-Fox]

This Kinda posts and conversations are so POINTLESS!
Goddamn!...
i dont dislike americans... I just dont like You!....

[Andy]

I'm 22 Jears old and hate Like gladly politicians.
Do you have al lexicon? than read...


Andy

[Adri]

how do we manage to draw every topic over to an israeli vs palestinian flame war ?
this topic was originaly eu vs usa.....

[IDFM203]

sorry but that is wrong! You say '' The Jews came 1944. And befor 1944 were was there?? hmm!

bevor anybody say '' You are a Nazi'' -- I'm not a Nazi, I will freedom all over the World. The Question is: Can two People-groups live in the same Staate? - I say yes. And many People too. Since 15 Jears I wantet to travel to Israel but I cant! Its to dangerus. Isarel is a beautifull land but the goverment is destroud the land.

AndyIsrael is indeed a beautiful country. I think it is quite ridicules to hear a germen blame the Israeli government for all this when in fact all that elected government has been doing is defending Jews against attacks by people that no matter what is offered to them will not rest till they see Israel into the sea. Yeah I guess times truly have not changed if it can still be that a German will blame the Jews only because they are defending themselves In what you term it as “destroying the land” as if Jews living and defending themselves are the ones that are destroying that land.


As for there being Jews before 1944. Yes there were plenty Jews living there before. There have always been Jews living there. In fact Israel’s biggest city was started around 1900. Yes Tel Aviv was a Jewish city way before 1944. There were Jews living all over Israel. In fact terrorism against Jews started way before 1948. An example that comes quickly to mind is the 1929 Hebron massacre in where the Arabs went on a pogrom and killed around a hundred man women and children simply because they were Jews. This is one example amongst many. So yes there were many Jews living there before 1944. Anyways whoever was living there was doing so under British rule.

[Andy]

how do we manage to draw every topic over to an israeli vs palestinian flame war ?
this topic was originaly eu vs usa.....

Jes you right! OK We blamabing Amerika! No the Bush administration blamabing Amerika all over tha world. It is hard for Amerika that France and Germany say no! We will never verget what amerika did for us. But that was in this moment happend is Not good. Amerika fights against the terror. And france and Germany too. But we fight only. We help countries for example Mali South Afrika ... Thats is fight against the terror too. Then fight only bring mor terrorismen in the wold. Thats the same we in Israel.

Please understand me right. Im for the fight against Terror, but not only with weapons!


Andy

[Andy]

@idfm203

You have right ( not all but ...)

Jes the Palistinänser are with debt. The Araber kills al lot of Jews.
But you say nothing about the Israeli Massaker! Thats not Fair. I can understand that what you are feeling. But I think weapons is the wrong answer.

I say it again: Im not a Nazi, since 15 Jears I want to travel to Israel, I have many friends ( Jews) and Palistinänser. I like the Middle East.

Andy

[IDFM203]

@idfm203

You have right ( not all but ...)

Jes the Palistinänser are with debt. The Araber kills al lot of Jews.
But you say nothing about the Israeli Massaker! Thats not Fair. I can understand that what you are feeling. But I think weapons is the wrong answer.

I say it again: Im not a Nazi, since 15 Jears I want to travel to Israel, I have many friends ( Jews) and Palistinänser. I like the Middle East.

AndyBefore 1948, the amount of terrorist acts against Jews done by the Arabs were so enormous that you can’t compare it to the few ones committed by Jews against Arabs. I mean what do you expect the Jews to do. They were being killed left and right, the British weren’t doing anything so the Jews had to defend themselves. Am I saying that all acts were justified? No… perhaps a few were not, but those few does not compare to the numerous ones committed by the Arabs against the Jews. It doesn’t even come close.

As for the answer. Well there might not be any good answer. Meaning if a large majority of Palestinians want to live in the whole Israel in place of the Jews then Israel will have no choice but to prevent that by defending themselves. Israel tried for the past ten years to give over land and work towards peace but was rejected with constant suicide bombings and with this latest war. Israel simply has no choice but to use weapons to defend themselves.

Golda Mair who was Israel’s prime Minster in the early seventies once said that Israel’s secret weapon in winning all these wars and surviving is that Israel simply has no choice!!!


I don’t care to label you a nazi or some other bad name, simply insinuating as you have done that Jews living and defending themselves is in fact destroying the land as you put it, I will let that speak for itself and let others draw their own conclusions.

[Anzac]

Anzac wrote:

It is plain logic to me that when you treat someone bad they will hold a grudge. Why are you now so surprised and angry when payback comes?




You say that to Israelis as European?

Read some history books before you come here to show your ignorance

in public.




So you say that becuse europeans treated your people bad during.. lets see.. Centuries of exile from Israel. (I know it started even before that with the roman ocupation) You get a carte blanc to comit crimes against palestinians from day one of the new Israel? I dont see the the connection?? Do you think your ansestors liked the way the romans, crusaders and other conquers treated them..
During that ocupation.

Dont point a finger at me who atleast can see and are ashamed of what wrongs my ancestors
are responsible for against yours, when you cant see your own.

The thing you quoted was more a question to americans becuse of their reaction after 9-11..


Read who started the war at 1948, 1956, 1967 (why it was started), 1973 or why Israel invaded Lebanon (Arafat's Fatah-land) also read how come Iraq didn't have nuclear weapon during the 1st gulf war or who started the last war although 99% of the Palestinians were under PA government.


Well, if we dig deep enough i guess we will find that the reasons for the wars was that there was a nation named Israel in a spot previously named Palestine, known as the crusader states in the dark ages and Canaan during the middle bronze age. The land has changed hands so many times it is irrelevant who was there first. And if we put it in a modern time frame you find out that the Hebrew/israelite control of the area is overshadowed by other powers in control. That is why still most jews live in other nations then israel.

I dont mind israel defending itself in the wars you mentioned. Not even doing pre-emptive strikes in defence as was the case in 1967.
And the strike on the Osirak reactor was a a brilliant operation as most of the "real-war" operations of the IDF/IAF.

What i do mind is that you are blind to your own mistakes. And that your government handels the active conflict in a particulary filthy way.

[citizen-k]

A. As for Jews before 1944 or something, my other grand father (not the Polish one) was born in Israel and so did his father (got to Israel around 1896 - and there were Jews in Israel even before that)

B. Filthy ways? whats more filthy then blowing up a bus of civilians?

Is it filthy to lose 13 soldiers trying not to heart civilians while the IDF could simply bomb the place? (and even after that Europeans dare to say there was a massacre)

You are simply against Israel, you have no idea why and you don't care why...

[IDFM203]

I think the israelis has them selfs to blame for all the terror bombings.

Lets look at history:
If they in 1948 had chosen a policy of coxistens instead of deportation, land acquisition, etnic-clensing and 3.8 million palestinians as refugees things in the mideast might have looked different. what a truly ignorant thing to say. Your clear objectivity is truly shining for all to see……….Ok lets get to the historical facts………Most of the area now called the Middle East was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire before World War I. Germany lost the war and so did its ally Turkey. The Ottoman Empire ceased to exist and the League of Nations assigned Britain and France as the mandatory powers.
France assumed mandatory control over what is now Syria and Lebanon. Britain assumed mandatory control over all the rest, including "Palestine," which comprised all that is now Jordan and Israel, including the "West Bank." The Golan Heights, which Syria now claims as its age-old patrimony, was originally part of Palestine.
In 1917, the British issued the Balfour Declaration, under which Palestine was to be the homeland for the Jewish people. In 1921,Winston Churchill, who was then Colonial Secretary of Great Britain, separated all the land east of the Jordan River from the territory designated to be the Jewish homeland, and awarded it to the Hashemites, who established the kingdom of Transjordan.
The Arabs, whipped up by their fanatic clergy, fiercely opposed the presence of the Jews on what they considered "sacred Moslem territory." There was constant warfare between the two groups, which the British tried to arbitrate, always favoring the Arabs, whom they considered more important to their imperial interests.
In 1947, the British decided that they had enough and resigned the Mandate. They left the Arab-Jewish antagonists to their own devices and turned it over to the United Nations. Their solution was to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The area west of the Jordan River (the "West Bank") and the Gaza Strip were allotted to the Arabs. Jerusalem was to be an "international" zone. After much soul searching, the Jews accepted the partition and, in April 1948, declared their independence in the area allotted to them by the partition. The Arabs rejected the partition out of hand. On the very day of Israel's birth, five Arab armies invaded the nascent Jewish State. In what must be considered an almost Biblical miracle, the rag-tag Jewish forces decisively defeated the combined Arab might. But Israel had suffered enormous casualties - 6,000 dead, about one percent of its population.
So in summary. Israel’s only chosen policy was to defend itself against an Arab population that wanted to see Israel thrown into the sea. The ones who decided to not live in coexistence were the Arabs. That’s a fact!!!!
Israel is the record holder for breaking UN resolutions.
And we have to remember that USA vetos all the realy harsh ones.. lets have a look at the UN and the way it treats Israel for a second. Though israel was founded in 1948 — over fifty years ago and at about the same time as many other countries in the wake of World War II — its "legitimacy," its "right to exist," are still being questioned and a topic of constant debate in the UN.
Following the 1967 Six-Day War, the hostility of the United Nations against Israel expanded out of all bounds. Between 1967 and 1988, the UN Security Council passed 88 Resolutions against Israel and the UN General Assembly passed more than 400.
In 1974, Yassir Arafat addressed the General Assembly with a holstered pistol on his hip and received a standing ovation by that body. The hostility against Israel reached its peak in 1975, when the General Assembly passed Resolution 3379 declaring "Zionism as a form of racism." This infamous Resolution remained in effect for sixteen years when, under intense pressure from the United States, it was finally repealed. What is the reason for the collective hostility of the UN against Israel? All of this hostility is based on the very structure of the United Nations. In the General Assembly, 130 of the 190 members will always, automatically, vote against Israel. The inner circle of this hatred is the core of twenty Arab nations, which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. Those countries are part of the larger 56-member Muslim group, which can reliably be counted on automatically to join the Arab block in their anti-Israel Resolutions. And those countries are almost always joined by the "non-aligned" group, which are essentially the underdeveloped countries of the world. They have little interest in Israel, but they are united in their hatred of the United States and consider Israel its surrogate. Each country in the General Assembly counts the same. The vote of the United States counts the same as that of, say, Rwanda or the Ivory Coast.
The greatest outrage is that of the 190 members of the UN, Israel, not being a full member of any of the "regional groups," is the only country that cannot be a member of the Security Council, the most important body of the UN. Syria, deservedly classified as a terrorist state, has just been elected to a 2-year term on that Council. Such outlaw countries as Libya, Iran, North Korea, and even Saddam Hussein's Iraq are eligible for membership. Israel is not.
The most virulent center of anti-Israel activities within the UN. The Human Rights Commission (UNHRC) has classified Israel as the principal human rights violator in the world today. Since its inception, about 25% of its Resolutions have condemned Israel. Such egregious human rights violations as those of China in Tibet, or of Russia in Chechnya don't even come to the floor for discussion. The genocide in Rwanda, the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, the horrifying "communal strife" in Indonesia's East Timor, the "disappearance" of a few hundred thousand refugees in the Congo, and the ruthless rampage of the Sudanese Muslims against the Christians are not found worthy of the attention of the Human Rights Commission. Such canards as the "blood libel," that Jews use the blood of Muslims and Christians for the baking of their Passover matzos or of the Israeli injecting Arab children with the AIDS virus are earnestly discussed in that forum.
Much is made of the loss of life in Israel and in the administered territories since the beginning of the so-called "intifada," the civil disobedience campaign by the Palestinians. Every human life is precious, of course. Israel is very much aware of that. But, in view of how long this has been going on, it is remarkable how few people have died, considering the violence and the hatred on the part of the Arabs. The relatively small number of casualties is testimonial to the restraint of the Israeli military and the Israeli government. Who can doubt that the "intifada" could have been suppressed in a few days, had Israel followed the cruel norms of the area in which it is located. Some Arab states conduct wholesale massacres of political opponents as state policy. In 1982, for instance, Syrian president Hafez Assad ordered the killing of over 20,000 civilians in the city of Hama. Iraq routinely executes so many people even for bizarre "offenses" (such as insulting the president) that Amnesty International has given up counting them. Iraq has also recently reached a new low in human rights abuse by killing more than 5,000 of its own Kurdish citizens by poison gas, because they were not thought to be politically reliable. The Democratic Republic of Yemen has periodic mass executions. Even the so-called "moderates" among the Arab states know how to handle civil disobedience "efficiently." Saudi Arabia, where slaves are still being kept and where public amputations for small offenses are the norm, killed over 400 Muslim pilgrims in one bloody day in Mecca in 1987. Egyptian troops killed over 100 people during public riots in 1986. In April of 1989, Algerian government troops opened fire in the city of Souk Ahras against Algerian citizens who were protesting food prices and corruption. 350 people were killed in less than an hour. These are just a few examples of human right violations by Arab governments. All this is besides the Arab countries lack of the most basic elements of human rights — freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free elections, equality for women, freedom of religion, freedom of association. Opponents, instead of facing television cameras, face execution. Those countries do not have to defend themselves against foes who are single-mindedly intent on their destruction.
Finally, there is the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), established in 1949 to assist the Palestinian "refugees". For more than 50 years, UNRWA has funded and administers the so-called "refugee camps" — hotbeds of murderous anti-Israel activity, including the notorious camp in Jenin, which is the source of most of the suicide bombers who have so far killed over six hundred Israeli civilians and wounded thousands more. "Instead of condemning and hating Israel, [the underdeveloped countries] should take it as an example of how to build an advanced, prosperous and competent nation."

With all these facts in mind it is truly a wonder why those Arab nations do not draw the enormous degree of attention and condemnation that Israel receives. I guess after these facts that I presented are understood the only logical conclusion is that the clear bias against the Jewish states and people have never disappeared.



Have a look at what amnesty international has to say about ocupied territorys 2003: http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/isr-summary-eng
(the report is not only about Israeli crimes but also Palestinian) .

as for this report. Well firstly they don’t understand the term moral equivalence. Meaning you can’t compare Israel targeting terrorists while the Palestinians target civilians. Secondly. It is true that the number of Palestinian casualties is substantially larger than those of the Israelis. This disparity is partly the result of the decision of the Palestinians to create martyrs and to evoke world sympathy for their plight and — the ultimate hope — to have an international force, a U.N. contingent, stationed in Israel or in the territories. The other reason that the number of Palestinian casualties is greater is that the Palestinian mobs attack the Israeli military in large numbers; soldiers, having to defend themselves and avoid being overrun, inevitably cause casualties in protecting themselves.
Just imagine your son or daughter being one of the Israeli soldiers. Howling mobs throwing rocks (yes, they hurt and kill!) attack the soldiers. From the unseen depths of the attacking mob come gunfire, grenades, and flying bottles of flaming gasoline. What, if you were in charge, would you tell the Israeli soldiers to do? Respond, as they do now in most cases, with rubber bullets? Or would this be the time to use live ammunition? You know what the answer is.
Israel in most cases has only responded to its own soldiers being fired upon. Amasty has no proof of Israel ever firing indiscriminately for believe me if Israel would have that policy (which they don’t) the death toll would be much higher. the fact that it is not does indeed show how Israel does indeed have a clear policy of restraint especially when faced bad realities that emanate from the Palestinian side.

Everything I brought down are based on historical facts and I openly challenge you to dispute them in a factual way and not in the predictable propaganda way that I am to expect.

[Sabre]

I can't stand this 'we were here first argument'.

All people using this argument sound like spoiled schoolchildren arguing about who gets a go on the swing.

Who cares about relics and bits of land? Does it really matter who lives there? In a short period of time (geologically speaking), they will no longer exist. A bit later on, people will probably become extinct. What will all this matter when we are all dead and no one is around even to give a ****?

All that matters is acting properly and responsibly to the benefit of everyone. That's what separates decent people from terrorists and fascists.

Once you start using the other playground addage, 'They started it!' to justify your actions, you lose respect. If those actions are despicable, ignoring better options and at worst taking lives, then you become worse than a terrorist. What is the worth in defending a cause that won't take the trouble to show it's the 'better man'.

It's not easy to do, and sometimes it's more dangerous. But that's what a responsible person would do. How can you hope to win the understanding of ordinary people if you won't make an effort to help them?

If you don't realise this then I pity you. Because it's your children that will keep dying as a result of your ineptitude and vindictive attitude.

[Kitsune]

Well I happen to be one of these "Liberals" (European Style). And I am proud of it.

This thread began with the usual "LookhowmuchEuropeowesAmerica" whining...while this may be true it is no reason to support each and any of Americas policies. We should differentiate here: Bush has no right to demand unquestioning support of Europeans because of the deeds of American soldiers in WWII. And the same the other way round: Anyone who defiles the grave of an American soldier in France because he disagrees with the present US policies is, among other things, an idiot. Those soldiers died before Bush was even born. They have nothing to do with Bushs nowadays policies.

What do I think of Bush? Well I think he is a problem. (Much more so than the present German political leadership, by the way). My dislike started quite early. A nation in distress after 9/11 and then here he came: The strong guy, who will solve all the problems by slamming his fists on the table. He increased the military budget, reduced the civil rights of everyone, showed those damn foreigners their place, started wars...and all in the name of the Lord. As a German I could not help it... I felt suspicion. But his style appealed to a lot of Americans. They started singing patriotic songs, waved flags, cheered... and my suspicion deepened.

But lets forget suspicion for now. What has this man achieved? First he prevented a LOT of international treaties. One about landmines, Kyoto, the international court (can't be that american soldiers are treated like everyone else ?) this list goes on and on... this starts even befor 9/11. After that? Bushs "Alliance against Terror". Do you realize how many dictators all ovber the world got off the hook easily by simply declaring "Yes Mr. Bush, I am with you, cause I have a serious Terrorism problem in my country myself."(Yeah resistance fighters, who struggle for the freedom of their country for example :roll: .) And they had the support of the US. Do you really think that this policy made the world a better place?

In the case of Afghanistan there was a track leading from the fallen towers of NY right to Kabul. Bushs attack on the Taliban regime was justified and was supported by Europe including France and Germany.

But then...Iraq. There was no track leading there. In fact from the beginning it was quite clear that Saddam was a mortal enemy of Islamists, terrorists or not. But in the US media 9/11 and Saddam usually was mentioned in the same sentence. Manipulation of the masses. Absence of clear and logical thinking. I found that downright disturbing.
Another reason: Those Weapons of Mass Destruction. I for my part believed that Saddam had some of those...LOST (the gas) grenades perhaps. A Sarin or Tabun brewery. And that he dreamt of nuclear weapons...which dictator worth his salt wouldn't? But something to threaten Europe, let alone the US? Remember: This was a WEAK state. NO FLIGHT zones in the north and south. American and british aircraft going where ever they wanted. Saddam military had been soundly thrashed in GW1 and pretty much bled dry afterwards...this state, a danger to the world? I found that hard to believe. But Powell said so...and Powell is an honorable man :roll: .
While the reasons FOR this war seemed questionable at best there were a lot of reasons AGAINST it:

1) The war could be bloodier than expected. Especially in Baghdad and Basra there could be long bloody fights against the fanatic troops of the Ba'ath regime. High civilan casualties included.
2) After the war the western troops couild find themselves in a palestin-like situation.
3) The end of the Saddam regime could be the beginning of a long and outdrawn civil war. Shiits against Sunnits.
4) Worst: The whole Middle East could be destabilized. Insurrections and civil wars could break out everywhere.

The US wanted not only to fight this war. They wanted to do it with the blue UN cloak draped on there backs: "Look, we represent the whole world in this." In the light of the above objections I think it was perfectly reasonable to refuse an agreement to Bushs Iraq warplans, especially from the European position. Europe is much closer to the Middle East than the USA and much more dependent on its oil. Fanning the flames seemed not overly clever.

What has happened? Well, we all know by now that there was no bloody street to street fighting in Baghdad or Basra with countless civilian casualties. I think the reason for this is...luck. Also the fears of an destabilized Middle East seem now exaggerated. But, coming from the townhall, one is always wiser (as we say in Germany). Still...was it clever to take that risk? Lucky again , I say. But...coalition troops are now in a situation thats reminiscent of IDF's problems in Palestine. And a civil war may break out any time. The murder of the Shiit leader Bakr el Hakim was a bad sign...
By now it is clear that Iraq had indeed been no great threat (does this really suprise anyone?). No WMDs. No connections to terrorists. In fact, what was a lie before is now becoming true: Iraq is a front in the fight against terrosist NOW. Has this really made the world (or the USA) a safer place? Neither is the Iraqi population better of: More people died during the last months because of the bad supply situation, criminals or American retributive strikes than Saddam would have killed during that time. Well, of course things may get better. But until now all talk of democratic prosperity has been an idle and empty promise. And if a civil war does break out people may even wish Saddam back.

And look at the USA itself: record budget deficits last year, this year...what about next year? Until now the level may be ok...but anually debts have climbed to 400 billion. Even if the US reduce this to an average of 250 billion during the next 4 years it would still mean another trillion of debts until 2007. Debts which have to be repaid some day. And they cost interests. Who pays for this? You do, the american cititzen. Of course, there a companies who get freaking rich from all this money (And it seems that Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice among others of the governmental league are somewhat...interwined...with...some...of those companies. Just think about it. Well, at least I would if I were an American.) All the while the US of A is "as close to an military dictatorship as it was ever befor in its history". Exaggeration? Perhaps. But, still... were I an american I would...
Anyway. Back to the wide wide world. American war enthusiasm is sinking now that the bill for the Iraq adventure is presented. At it seems now that America isn't able to rule the world like a new Roman Empire. Even a war aginst a WEAK and bled dry nation like Iraq depleted the US finances. And now Iran and North Korea seem to work on their WMDs (even nuclear one it seems) in a fast forward mode. One message of Bushs policy is loud and clear: If you are weak the US may come and get you. But with nuclear bombs you may be safe.
Does really anyone think the world has become a safer place because of Bush? Really??

We here in Germany were accused of being bad friends because we decided not to stick with America in this. We were told how much we own you, and that we have to support Bushs policies because of this and that debt of our past. (Germany got lucky. The main wraith of the US targeted France. The level of anti-french propaganda is astonishing and disturbing. French were called cowards and sissies, accused of intrigue and any possible kind of evil. For example: they are against the war because they fear it will come out how much they supported Saddam, it was said. What about this now?). But policy is about the present, not about the past. And the reasons for not supporting the US were (and are) okay. It is our right to come to our own conclusions and to choose our own path. And if the risks of a war seem to be too great one should not fight it.
The worsening of the Franch/German - American relationship is mainly Bushs fault. I concede...mistakes were made on both sides. But GWBs attitude was from the beginning: "Do as we say or screw youself." Semi-Imperialistic.
And face it: Was that EVER the American way? To be like the Romans? When in East-Germany workers protested, Soviet tanks run over them. Same in hungary. And Chinese tanks over students on Tianamen square. But America has always won the loyality of its allies by winning there admiration not by subdueing them. That meant the US had to talk to her allies and to respect their free will. It may have been the more difficult way at times. But I think thats one reason why the USA are still around while the Soviet Union is gone.
My opinion is that the current US policiy is one big mistake. But I also think that more and more americans are realizing it. And I bet GWB will not get re-elected. In a few years he and his policy will be judged as an aberration.



P.S.:
I am absolutly aware that not all who read this share my opinion. Possible not even a majority. Nevertheless, the intend of this post is NOT to offend anyone. Even not you, who are fans of GWB (whoever you are), although I absolutly do not share your liking of him. The post just expresses my opinion. Thats all.

p-)



Anyone, who finds spelling mistakes in the text above, may keep them.
;)

[citizen-k]

IDFM203, I salute you!

Unfortunately, most people here deny themselves from accepting the

facts - it's easier for them to stay in the same position.

In physics it's called the inertia effect.

Thing is, and thats what irritates them most - after 50 years of attempts

to destory Israel (with the arab cooperation) - WE ARE STILL HERE!

Not only we are still here, I just read in the newspaper - Israel has never

been so strong comparing to its neighbours!!!

No metter what they do - arabic boycott, UN resolutions, selling

technology to the terrorist-arab-countries WE STILL BEAT THEM!!! rofl

GET IT? damn Jews don't die!!!

f****!!! I guess some of them REALY miss

Hitler now days!

[Adri]

kitsun: I agree on most of your post except some smal things....

(f.eks that the "the US of A is "as close to an military dictatorship as it was ever befor in its history")

I find that insane, however the rest of the tekst I agree on
(okey some other part but I dont have all nigth)

:hug:

[Kitsune]

@Adri :

This dictatorship thing is a quote of the american actor James Cromwell. Since it is only a relative statement, it may very well be true. Just depends how close the USA ever have been to an "military dictatorship" in the past.

;)


@Citizen-k

I do not know at whom your comment is aiming. Just to remind you: After the US of A the biggest supporter of Israel is the Federal Republic of Germany. Support of Israel and its right to exist have always been a cornerstone of German foreign policy. There has been no attempt made to destroy Israel. (LOL? Well rather not...)

In any case...your accusations seem to be quite unfair and overexaggerated. Keep this civil, please. And calm down.
After all...we are all friends here, aren't we? :hug:

[Tiger]

Kitsuen: TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. :D It's exactly what i think right now...

[citizen-k]

@kitsune

Didn't mean you...

[Luxembourger]

What do I think of Bush? Well I think he is a problem. (Much more so than the present German political leadership, by the way). My dislike started quite early. A nation in distress after 9/11 and then here he came: The strong guy, who will solve all the problems by slamming his fists on the table. He increased the military budget, reduced the civil rights of everyone, showed those damn foreigners their place, started wars...and all in the name of the Lord. As German I could not help it... I felt suspicion. But his style appealed to a lot of Americans. They started singing patriotic songs, waved falgs, cheered... and my suspicion deepened.


First : I agree on Bushes strikes against terrorists after 9/11
why ? because do you think the attacks and hate on America only started because Bush became president ??????? what about 1993 WTC bombings? and other plots to harm the US or what about the USS cole issue ? At that time there was not a President called Bush who was in the US administarion, But it was Clinton .

during the 90s there were times where other **** leaders of counttires did such worse things like in Ruanda or elsewhere that nobody,,and especially our great extrem left liberal intelectualls who did not dare to blame those killings (Ruanda , issue of N-Korea and other terirble things ) .
There weren t any Protests in the streets in Europe against any war ...oh there were some protests when NATO acted against socialist Milosevic ,,oh yeah the por Milosevic the new GOd ...I remember a german left-wing leader visiting miliosevic during the NATO attacks ,,,the german poltiican was from the PDS and I found it disgusting that he shook hands and gave moral support to Milosevic. And yes none of the radical liberals did say a word . I just find it courageous when Schroeder and Fischer critised tthe trip of that idiot to milosevic. Schroeder and Fischer are good poltiicans ,,,I became more conservative at the age of 20 ( beofre I was in a socialist young party and was disgusted about their hate against the USA and NATO ....I thereofr realised that socilalist parties were not my taste . I joined only the socialist liberal parties because I thought they were helping the poor average clas people .. But tis was not true opening their mouth blaming the USA and Israel all the time while other countries are comitng mass murder and no word on that DISGUSTING . SO I left this socialist group schocked and upset and became conservative. BAck now to Schroeder and Fischer : They are the most moderate liberals in Europe there are worse people in their camp , Schroeder and Fischer are not Anti American they just had another opinion . GErmany is helping a lot in Operation During Freedom ,,if there is someone to blame then maybe some french politicans ,,not all . But belive me Fischer and Schroeder are intelligent guys not like other politicans in their left camp that hate American and NATO to death . YES I would vote the right wing party in Germany CDU/CSU but please respect Schroeder and Fischer for what they are doing in the international issue.. Concerning their domestic issues I don t know much as I am not GErman and don t live in the country.


Now back to the quote unquote comment . I hate when one tries to find out why terroirst became terrorist and the reason why one is terrorist is that he is poor . THAt s nonsense and radical left propaganda
DO you think you solve the problem when you finaly found out after years why one Terrorist became terroirst? SO all the poor people in Europe will become terrorists now iand blow up buses ? It is stupid to find out the seeds and reasons of terror ! Most terrorists are brainwashed by fanatical muslim clerics who want to kick ass the West and educate young people with hate . Why ? because those clerics don t wan their young people getting westernized having fun going out . Those cleircs just want to keep theiir dark ages tradition , beating women and expanding their religion with terror. Do you think they are only at war with Israel ? check out where all theh hot spots are in the world and who statred the **** wars or provoked democratic nations to act.

I am not anti-muslim or anit anything else ..I was once one a liberal who thought that you can make a better world by being defensive and make diplomacy with terrorists and repsect terrorists because they were
poor when they were young. HOw many times did Israel gave Palestine an opportunity to have a good peace deal ? Arafat is really an ass this guy is a dictator who has completely brainwahsed his own citizens and who did not want give all the power to ABBAs ...DAMN Arafats was born as terrorist and he will remain one with our stupid support (european..especially radical left politicans like Arafat ) You can t find Jews in any other country blow himself up in order to expand his religion it happens only to muslims extremists who want to expand theirs all over the world .

And what sucks more is that while there other **** leaders like N-korea doing **** to their people ,, everybody keeps on blaming bad America and bad ISrael ,,,,,,,,,sorry but it became a trend now to point the fingesrs at america ...yes nothing is perfect in Isreal or America,but there are countries out there where you could write 10000 books and pages about their evil things ,,,,Those books sold in european libraires like Sharon the evil Bush the terrorists , America the empire Israel the muslim hating nation,.all those books are writen by extrem radical left intellecutals in Euriope wh owant to brainwash you n people becoming new CHes .
It is unfair .. I could wirte 100 pages about the 500 000 peope killed in Ruanda by muslim etnic groups ...or the 1000000 people starving in N-Korea ,no one cares for that and no one would buy a book of that ! because it has nothing to do with America or ISRAEL

SO I all repsect all your opinons and I know that you people in these forums having different opions are moderate people like me who at least care for the world issues what is really great . You have people in this world who only care who palys best soccer or who is the best RAPPER .

So repsect to all even if you don t share my viision,,,but rhis forum would not exist if we had only one opinion

cheers

[jdbjdb]

The arabs are pretty stupid when it comes to conventional warfare, they are dead last, how many times has Israel kicked the **** out of the arabs since 1948? I just love watching the news and seeing arabs talk about how they can destroy Israel if they wanted too :lol: when arabs look back and see all the defeats what are they thinking?

[army cadet_ngcsu]

It is almost sickening the amount of unjustified hate that the Arabs and Muslims have for the entire world. It seems to me that Muslims find some sort of excuse to always fight. One of Bin Laden's main reasons for a holy war against the US is because we have military bases in the holy land of Mecca and Medina. I could understand if those bases were maybe a mile or two from Mecca's mosques or holy shrines, but they are not. They are atleast 30 to 50 miles from the two "holy cities". It seems as though the entire world is at war with these fanatics, such regions and countries like Israel, Sri Lanka, Kashmir, Chechnya, Dhagestan, parts of China, Afghanistan, East Timor, Southern Sudan, etc. all suffer from Muslim fanatics. Many Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, etc. all hate Muslims and I understand why. They are a war like people who will fight and kill over anything.

[jdbjdb]

It seems the muslim terrorist are more active, yes bin Laden hates America because American troops in a Muslim country, of course we are moving out of Saudi Arabia to Doha Qatar?, another reason he hates America, America's support of Israel. But of course the Saudi royal family will still kiss our ass, if a coup is ever attempted, who will the Saudi's call for? America, same goes for Jordan. But all relgions have the extremist, like here in America, we got the kkk and aryian nation guys, those guys are just idiots, and should be exiled to Cuba. I think there's like 1billion muslims in the world, most are good people but some aren't I feel bad for the good ones, the militant ones always causing problems.

[Kitsune]

Well, this thread has a bit deviated from its original topic...

[Sabre]

"the British tried to arbitrate, always favoring the Arabs, whom they considered more important to their imperial interests.
In 1947, the British decided that they had enough and resigned the Mandate. They left the Arab-Jewish antagonists to their own devices and turned it over to the United Nations."


AHEM!!!!

As for favouring the arabs, that may have been the political will (bear in mind that britain was mandated by the league of nations to look after the area), but I can tell you the soldiers had good reason to.

It was the Jewish terrorist groups that attacked the British soldiers. They bombed installations, barracks, air force bases, they ambushed patrols, and on one occasion they killed two british sergeants and hung their naked bodies from trees.

Most of the origional leaders of Israel were the heads of groups like the IZL or the 'Irgun'

In fact, the future PM of Israel during the 1982 invasion of Lebbanon(Menachem Begin) was the leader of the Irgun in 1944 when he resumed hostilities against the British (they stopped fighting during most of the war, a splinter group called the Stern Gang didn't respect that and continued to kill british servicemen while their comrades were dying fighting nazism)

The violence really sparked up after the war which led to british units arresting many suspected terrorists in a large operation. The response to this was the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946. They shot dead two unarmed officers trying to identify them in cold blood before setting the explosives in the basement and blowing up the hotel, killing 91. Including 15 jewish civillians.

There were many more horrendous attacks on British servicemen and unarmed civillians.

The two hanged sergeants (whose bodies were mined and ****y trapped) were supposedly tried and sentenced to death. Because they belonged to (according to a statement made by the kidnappers) the "criminal Nazi British army of occupation".

This was two years after they had finished fighting the Nazis themselves.

I have no respect for these people.

Read this.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

[Adri]

do you need to write so f*** long post !?!?!? it is so boring to read !!!
(not that it isnt interesting)
I am aiming for Luxembourgers last post ;)
(and please dont come whit that "then dont read it" ****)

then back to the topic:

first arabs doesnt figth as us just because they dont have apaches, F-16, carriers, b-52, b-1, F-25, F-22,A-10 or any updated tanks (they still use t-72`s from the 1980....I dont know when the t-72 first came...)

then: Luxembourger:
the original topic was eu vs usa stuff...
do you think usa dont suport terrorist aswell ?
(uzbekistan, there are MANY)

I would say that all countrys have they`re dark sides... yeah I agree on the fact that a lot of the countrys in europe have/are suporting terrorist, but so do all :roll: the only country I can think of that dont suport terrorist must be (I think they dont do that ****) island or any other "not so strong" countries
(wich allso dont have an army)

[Saranof]

[quote=Andy]That is evenly my opinion. Ipursue this Konflickt already am enough, and its my own opinion formed. A question: Who was in this country first ? hmmm


A. Jews were there first
B. Heared of the bible?
C. So??? It makes it ok to blow up buses?


Andy


a: No, they wern't
b: You base your politics on a fookin' stupid book? That's the dumbest thing I've heard of for..like, two mins...
c: So it makes it ok to put an intire people into concentration camps? like you do to the palestinians?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

A. Jews were there first
B. Heared of the bible?
C. So??? It makes it ok to blow up buses?

a: No, they wern't
b: You base your politics on a fookin' stupid book? That's the dumbest thing I've heard of for..like, two mins...
c: So it makes it ok to put an intire people into concentration camps? like you do to the palestinians?

A. Yes, they were. Learn history. We were here before the first Arab conquest at the 7th century A.D. We were here even before 1000 B.C.
B. The bible is not a f*** stupid book. You better watch your tongue. I guess you also think that Jesus was a piece of bull****.
C. We didn't put the Palestinian into concentration camp. This is a crude lie, not to say, an antisemite blood libel.

[Ichhabe]

Stop making every God Damn posting in to a Israeli/Palestine-discussionslam party. Man!!! After your Israelis came in here it seems like nothing else matters!

Don't you guys have any fantasy left in your obsesst brains?

This is a forum on the militaryphotos.net!!!
Not some middle east slamfest forum! :bash: :fork: :cantbeli:

[IDFM203]

Stop making every God Damn posting in to a Israeli/Palestine-discussionslam party. Man!!! After your Israelis came in here it seems like nothing else matters!

Don't you guys have any fantasy left in your obsesst brains?

This is a forum on the militaryphotos.net!!!
Not some middle east slamfest forum! :bash: :fork: :cantbeli:hey Ichhabe. In case you haven’t noticed, most of what we are saying has come in response to someone bringing up the israeli/palatinin conflict or an issue from that.

We are entitled to an opinion just like anyone else here. If some of you can bring it up(in most cases) then we sure as hell have every right to respond to it.

Heck even on a military forum we have Norwegians that are talking about the military or military matters. rofl rofl I mean If that doesn’t prove that everyone has the right to an opinion then I don’t know what else would.

[Nasty Bastard]

B. The bible is not a f*** stupid book. You better watch your tongue. I guess you also think that Jesus was a piece of bull****.

I wouldn't say bull****. I know that bull**** exists. You religious types always assume athiests hate your religion, don't you?

If that "stupid" book, and a few other "stupid" books hadn't been written, then this would have been a much shorter thread.



C. We didn't put the Palestinian into concentration camp. This is a crude lie, not to say, an antisemite blood libel.

Maybe not, but you're not averse to a fun little game of "lets shell the UN refugee camp".

Every time someone says something that in some way offends a person of Jewish faith, they get accused of being anti-semetic, regardless of how insignificant the offence. Its just a cop-out, intended to automatically inspire a guilt trip in the other party. Frankly, that **** doesn't fly anymore. Get that frigging chip off your shoulder.

If someone from Israel wants to pull that "USA saved everyone from everything and the UN are a pack of gutless whingers" routine, they'd be well advised to remember exactly how their state came to exist in 1948. It was a pity that it happened this way, really. It should have been a state built on inclusion of all, rather than basing citizenship on religion, but thats just my opinion.

Those of you who both believe in the democratic process, and want Arafat removed: what an interesting little contradiction you need to work out for yourselves. I mean, Arafat was elected. Like it or not, he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people.

Kitsune, you hit the nail on the head. You described my feelings perfectly, and I commend you.

[Ichhabe]

idfm203; it is always the others, eh?

[IDFM203]

Ichhabe;it is always the jews, eh?




I have never just blamed the others. But I am simply not going to accept that it is always the Jews fault like some of you clearly insinuate.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

B. The bible is not a f*** stupid book. You better watch your tongue. I guess you also think that Jesus was a piece of bull****.

I wouldn't say bull****. I know that bull**** exists. You religious types always assume athiests hate your religion, don't you?

If that "stupid" book, and a few other "stupid" books hadn't been written, then this would have been a much shorter thread.



C. We didn't put the Palestinian into concentration camp. This is a crude lie, not to say, an antisemite blood libel.

Maybe not, but you're not averse to a fun little game of "lets shell the UN refugee camp".

Every time someone says something that in some way offends a person of Jewish faith, they get accused of being anti-semetic, regardless of how insignificant the offence. Its just a cop-out, intended to automatically inspire a guilt trip in the other party. Frankly, that **** doesn't fly anymore. Get that frigging chip off your shoulder.

Come on. You know better why you used the phrase "concentration camp"... To delegitimize the right of Israel to exist.

If someone from Israel wants to pull that "USA saved everyone from everything and the UN are a pack of gutless whingers" routine, they'd be well advised to remember exactly how their state came to exist in 1948. It was a pity that it happened this way, really. It should have been a state built on inclusion of all, rather than basing citizenship on religion, but thats just my opinion.

The state of Israel exist rather you'll like it or not. We have the right to live free in our nation land and we won't be denide by racists and Jew-haters who believe the Jews don't have any Human Rights and all naation should have states except for the Jews.

Those of you who both believe in the democratic process, and want Arafat removed: what an interesting little contradiction you need to work out for yourselves. I mean, Arafat was elected. Like it or not, he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people.

The last "elections" in the PA were held at 1996. Since then 7 years have passed. Don't you think it is undemocratic? By the way, Hiltler, Stalin, Assad and Saddan were also elected. Does it mean their reigms were democracies?

Kitsune, you hit the nail on the head. You described my feelings perfectly, and I commend you.

[Ichhabe]

Ichhabe;it is always the jews, eh?




I have never just blamed the others. But I am simply not going to accept that it is always the Jews fault like some of you clearly insinuate.

Have you gone totally insane?

I have not insinuated nothing.

Take a 100 paces backwards so you gain enough speed before jumping in to a brick wall. :bash:

[perdurabo]

buahahah to Polish mates
Przypomina mi to scene z sexmisji gdzie Sztur przed zgromadzeniem bab krzyczy "pewnie nieodpowiadamy tylko za koklusz i gradobicie" buahaha:)

to others:
this flame wars are realy intresting:D but surly we need some special place for "poor victims" and "jews foult"
hey smebody have popecorn? we can wach this fights like TV shows:D better than "Bar bez granic" ("Bar-without limits" stupid reality show on Polsat)
BTW it's realy anoying when smb says Europeans like it is some one nation or country, it's like calling asians or middle-easterns for all ppl wich live in that region as one

[Fargin]

If you want a productive discussion you have to be willing to listen. If there's not consensus of reaching an agreeement or atleast gaining a mutural understanding, why try in the first place?

I got ambivalent feelings about America and Israel. I can understand why Americans could feel detrayed by Europeans, and also why Israelis feel hated. But in this heated envoriment where insults and accusations are the only way to communicate, we can't produce anything positive.

This could be a great place to learn about different peoples perspectives, but casting blaim at eachothers only confirm own prejudices.

We have alot in common: An interest in mititary pictures and common understanding of a soldier has to do or die. When I look at all the photographs, i'm fasinated by what the men and women endure, not about politics.

Don't use these discussions to vent frustrations or snipe at political opponents, use them to learn and broaden your horizons.

[IDFM203]

Every time someone says something that in some way offends a person of Jewish faith, they get accused of being anti-semetic, regardless of how insignificant the offence. Its just a cop-out, intended to automatically inspire a guilt trip in the other party. Frankly, that **** doesn't fly anymore. Get that frigging chip off your shoulder. no you get over your self already. Stop lying that all we do is throw out the anti Semitic label for that is a lie.

The real problem comes form you are people like you that constantly just accuse us of saying that and then you knock it down when of course it was only you who had insinuated that we called you that. In truth it serves your benefit for most of the time we haven’t put that label on and you’re simply use that false claim as a copout it to claim we did so you can then knock you false claim down. That is the real copout.

I don’t care to put a label on you are not. The simple fact is that is some cases the UN has protected terrorists or in some case has had their lookout posts be used by terrorists to lunch mortars at israel, and has at times failed their jobs and it is our right to be critical of that. Now if you defend the UN in those cases, it doesn’t make you an anti Semite it just makes you wrong.
You see I did not put that label on you…..get it?!?


If someone from Israel wants to pull that "USA saved everyone from everything and the UN are a pack of gutless whingers" routine, they'd be well advised to remember exactly how their state came to exist in 1948. . yes the US did that with its troops and its actions on the ground. That’s speaks much more then the simple line on a map that the UN draw which really did nothing in the establishment of Israel. that line did not create Israel. NO, Israel defeating the attacking Arab onslaughts is what created Israel.

It was a pity that it happened this way, really. It should have been a state built on inclusion of all, rather than basing citizenship on religion, but thats just my opinion. . a lot of things should have happened. If we were living in a dream would all these wishes would have happened. But no, we are living in reality and the realty of that time was that the Arabs attacked in order to kill very Jewish man women and child. Inclusion would have been nice but it was not the reality that the Arabs wanted. That’s the historical fact!!!!!


Those of you who both believe in the democratic process, and want Arafat removed: what an interesting little contradiction you need to work out for yourselves. I mean, Arafat was elected. Like it or not, he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people. . you’re actually right. He is the elected representative and being that most people support him only shows that there cant be peace. For arafat makes it clear that he wants to see the whole Israel destroyed and as you insinuate most people support him so they do in fact support that stance.

I don’t know I mean what would you do if you had a whole population that wanted to see your whole country destroyed?!? (and not just the mere occupation of the west bank like they claim in English to the western press)

[IDFM203]

Ichhabe;it is always the jews, eh?




I have never just blamed the others. But I am simply not going to accept that it is always the Jews fault like some of you clearly insinuate.

Have you gone totally insane?

I have not insinuated nothing.

Take a 100 paces backwards so you gain enough speed before jumping in to a brick wall. :bash: Hey you take a thousand steps back. I said some of you. There was a huge break and space there to show that it wasn’t directed specifically at you.

geeeezzzzzzzzzz :bash: :bash:

[Fargin]

Atleast I tried.

Discussions like these will feed your prejudices & narrow your minds. Nor will it help limit violence or terrorrism. Nothing has been gained since page one.

What is the purpose?

To get the last word?

[Nasty Bastard]

Come on. You know better why you used the phrase "concentration camp"... To delegitimize the right of Israel to exist.

Hey, I wasn't the orginal poster who used that expression. If it appeared that I was justifying it, well then I'm going to make it clear right now that I wasn't.

The state of Israel exist rather you'll like it or not. We have the right to live free in our nation land and we won't be denide by racists and Jew-haters who believe the Jews don't have any Human Rights and all naation should have states except for the Jews.

So anyone who questions whether the 1948 decision may have been made in a different way is a "Jew-hater"? C'mon, thats a crock of ****. I'm not going to accuse anyone who questions the European occupation of Australia as an "Aussie-hater", why should it be different for you. Like I said, get the chip off your shoulder.

Who here has said that Jews don't have any human rights? I sure as hell didn't. And yes, the citizens of the state of Israel definitely have the right to exist in a peaceful and secure environment. But no more or no less than the Palestinians.

The last "elections" in the PA were held at 1996. Since then 7 years have passed. Don't you think it is undemocratic? By the way, Hiltler, Stalin, Assad and Saddan were also elected. Does it mean their reigms were democracies?

Stalinist Russia? Democracy? Are you now going to argue that Stalin came to power within a democratic regime?

And Hitler wasn't elected to his position. He was appointed by the Chancellor, although granted it was after the Nazis won the most seats in the Reichstag.

Whilst I fundamentally agree that 7 years is too long a term, Arafat still has a large majority backing. This does lend him *some* legitimacy in the eyes of the world, like it or not.

[Ichhabe]

Well, then I just have to appologize then idfm203.

But even if I was wrong there, enjoy this: :bash:

[IDFM203]

Well, then I just have to appologize then idfm203.

But even if I was wrong there, enjoy this: :bash:

Ok apology accepted

But still :bash: :bash: ;)

[Ichhabe]

hehe

[Nasty Bastard]

The real problem comes form you are people like you that constantly just accuse us of saying that and then you knock it down when of course it was only you who had insinuated that we called you that. In truth it serves your benefit for most of the time we haven’t put that label on and you’re simply use that false claim as a copout it to claim we did so you can then knock you false claim down. That is the real copout.




This is a crude lie, not to say, an antisemite blood libel.

Do I need to point out the insinuation to which I was replying?



I don’t care to put a label on you are not. The simple fact is that is some cases the UN has protected terrorists or in some case has had their lookout posts be used by terrorists to lunch mortars at israel, and has at times failed their jobs and it is our right to be critical of that. Now if you defend the UN in those cases, it doesn’t make you an anti Semite it just makes you wrong.
You see I did not put that label on you…..get it?!?

Well yeah, some people using the refugee camps as cover have launched attacks on Israel. I don't dispute that. However, shelling the compound isn't going to solve the problem. You're just going to make even more people pissed off at you, and that is going to cause you an awful lot of grief not only in the short term, but in the long term as well.



yes the US did that with its troops and its actions on the ground. That’s speaks much more then the simple line on a map that the UN draw which really did nothing in the establishment of Israel. that line did not create Israel. NO, Israel defeating the attacking Arab onslaughts is what created Israel.

So if the British were left in charge of Palestine, then Israel would have formed itself? One might wonder how that might come about? Terrorist attacks on British occupying forces, perhaps?



a lot of things should have happened. If we were living in a dream would all these wishes would have happened. But no, we are living in reality and the realty of that time was that the Arabs attacked in order to kill very Jewish man women and child. Inclusion would have been nice but it was not the reality that the Arabs wanted. That’s the historical fact!!!!!

That historical fact wouldn't have anything to do with the displacement of 1,000,000+ palestinians, would it? That can't be good for relations with your neighbours.


you’re actually right. He is the elected representative and being that most people support him only shows that there cant be peace. For arafat makes it clear that he wants to see the whole Israel destroyed and as you insinuate most people support him so they do in fact support that stance.

Hey, if my house got bulldozed because a neighbours dumb and somewhat murderous kid went and blew himself up and killed a few people, I'd be pissed off too. I mean, my only crime would have been to live near him. So of course you're going to have a lot of people who think they'd be better off without Israel.

Now before you go saying that I should be pissed off at that particular neighbours kid, bear something in mind. It isn't the neighbours kid that is physically turning my home into rubble, its an Israeli bulldozer.


I don’t know I mean what would you do if you had a whole population that wanted to see your whole country destroyed?!? (and not just the mere occupation of the west bank like they claim in English to the western press)

What would you do if you were kicked off your land because the majority of the rest of the world is in a guilt trip about how someone else (who also claims your land) has been treated for the last x amount of years?

Israel hasn't helped its case in bringing terrorism to an end. Don't interpret this as my saying that Israel is solely responsible, because it goes both ways.

[IDFM203]

idfm203

The real problem comes form you are people like you that constantly just accuse us of saying that and then you knock it down when of course it was only you who had insinuated that we called you that. In truth it serves your benefit for most of the time we haven’t put that label on and you’re simply use that false claim as a copout it to claim we did so you can then knock you false claim down. That is the real copout.



This is a crude lie, not to say, an antisemite blood libel.

Do I need to point out the insinuation to which I was replying? .yes you do need to point it out for you made a general statement as if we do it all the time in all the arguments. Simply one person saying it one or two times does not mean that all we do all the time is resort to that.




I don’t care to put a label on you are not. The simple fact is that is some cases the UN has protected terrorists or in some case has had their lookout posts be used by terrorists to lunch mortars at israel, and has at times failed their jobs and it is our right to be critical of that. Now if you defend the UN in those cases, it doesn’t make you an anti Semite it just makes you wrong.
You see I did not put that label on you…..get it?!?

Well yeah, some people using the refugee camps as cover have launched attacks on Israel. I don't dispute that. However, shelling the compound isn't going to solve the problem. You're just going to make even more people pissed off at you, and that is going to cause you an awful lot of grief not only in the short term, but in the long term as well. this isn’t about solving any problem or what not. No, this is simply about Israeli soldiers or towns taking fire and returning it in order to stop more of it from coming down on them. This argument is about Israel’s right to defend themselves and to be able to respond to that fire no matter where its coming from for that fire is trying to kill us. Israel and its citizens have every right to defend themselves even from fire that comes from the UN areas.

yes the US did that with its troops and its actions on the ground. That’s speaks much more then the simple line on a map that the UN draw which really did nothing in the establishment of Israel. that line did not create Israel. NO, Israel defeating the attacking Arab onslaughts is what created Israel.

So if the British were left in charge of Palestine, then Israel would have formed itself? One might wonder how that might come about? Terrorist attacks on British occupying forces, perhaps? . first of all by that time already not even the Arabs liked the British. No one liked them.

Again the facts are that after the British left, the Jews that were living there were attacked by the Arab onslaughts from all over the middle east and somehow they defeated this attacking army.. That’s the facts of the creation of israel


a lot of things should have happened. If we were living in a dream would all these wishes would have happened. But no, we are living in reality and the realty of that time was that the Arabs attacked in order to kill very Jewish man women and child. Inclusion would have been nice but it was not the reality that the Arabs wanted. That’s the historical fact!!!!!

That historical fact wouldn't have anything to do with the displacement of 1,000,000+ Palestinians, would it? That can't be good for relations with your neighbours.


Ok lets talk about these Palestinians. What are the Facts?
You have heard about those "Palestinian refugees," who claim "right of return" to Israel. Of course, virtually none of them ever lived in Israel -- they are the children and mostly grandchildren of those who fled in 1948. The total number of those who fled in 1948 is estimated to have been about 650,000. Now the number who wish to return has swollen to almost five million!
How did this exodus come about? In 1948, on the day of the proclamation of the State of Israel, five Arab armies invaded the new country from all sides. In frightful radio broadcasts, they urged the Arabs living there to leave, so that the invading armies could operate without interference. They could return after the expected quick victory in that "holy war," get their property back -- and that of the Jews. Things turned out differently. The invading armies were defeated. Those who had left became refugees -- people without a country. Those who stayed, and their children, are full-fledged citizens of the State of Israel.
These so-called "Palestinian refugees" have not been allowed to settle in the "indivisible Arab nation." They have been supported in camps since 1948. So far, close to $1.8 billion has been spent on their maintenance. No end is in sight. Who pays for that? You guessed it: Through UNWRA Relief, the United States contributes more than 60% of the total cost.
The Arab countries, among them some of the richest in the world who fritter away their enormous fortunes on undreamed luxuries, are satisfied to leave their Arab brethren in those miserable camps. They have never contributed a penny to their maintenance.
Oh and there is Another side of the "refugee" story. Little is heard of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who fled those countries to settle in the newly formed Jewish State of Israel. Every one of these refugees was immediately accepted, resettled, taken care of, and given full citizenship by the fledgling, impoverished, and embattled Jewish State. There never has been, and there certainly is not now, a Jewish "refugee" camp in Israel or anywhere else.
The Arab "refugees" who fled Israel left little wealth and little history, since most of them had not come to "Palestine" until Jewish settlers opened economic opportunities in what had been a desolate country for centuries. But the Jews of Arab lands have a history going back thousands of years. When forced to flee, they left behind land, wealth, and a long history. They arrived in Israel, quite literally only "with their shirts on their backs." They now make up almost 60% of the vibrant and productive population of Israel. What have the Arabs, the richest people in the world, done with their "refugees" in more than 50 years? They have kept them in misery, on the dole of the world, and have taught their hopeless youth the "skills" of suicide missions and of slaughtering defenseless and unarmed men, women, and children.


you’re actually right. He is the elected representative and being that most people support him only shows that there cant be peace. For arafat makes it clear that he wants to see the whole Israel destroyed and as you insinuate most people support him so they do in fact support that stance.

Hey, if my house got bulldozed because a neighbours dumb and somewhat murderous kid went and blew himself up and killed a few people, I'd be pissed off too. I mean, my only crime would have been to live near him. So of course you're going to have a lot of people who think they'd be better off without Israel. . listen the fact is that Israel would never be doing any of this if the Palestinians truly wanted peace and stopped sending in suicide bombers or sniping at Israeli’s. The fact remains that most want to see the whole Israel destroyed. We could argue all day but the facts remain that in most cases Israel isresponding and not initiating violence as they are doing.



I don’t know I mean what would you do if you had a whole population that wanted to see your whole country destroyed?!? (and not just the mere occupation of the west bank like they claim in English to the western press)

What would you do if you were kicked off your land because the majority of the rest of the world is in a guilt trip about how someone else (who also claims your land) has been treated for the last x amount of years? . first of all they weren’t kicked off but they left in a war that they and their brethren attacked

Secondly what does the whole world have to do with this?!? The world didn’t create Israel, all they did was draw a line on a map where there were already for years Jews and Arabs living.

No, Israel was created because the Jews defeated an attacking Arab onslaught (that was made up of many different Arab countries). It was that win in a defensive war that Israel was created from. That is the historical fact!!!

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Come on. You know better why you used the phrase "concentration camp"... To delegitimize the right of Israel to exist.

Hey, I wasn't the orginal poster who used that expression. If it appeared that I was justifying it, well then I'm going to make it clear right now that I wasn't.

It is good that we got that clear. If you think this phrase is misused (and it is misused) don't use it. Usually, the type of guys who uses this kind of argument are stating the Israel should be destroyed and has no right to exist.

The state of Israel exist rather you'll like it or not. We have the right to live free in our nation land and we won't be denide by racists and Jew-haters who believe the Jews don't have any Human Rights and all naation should have states except for the Jews.


So anyone who questions whether the 1948 decision may have been made in a different way is a "Jew-hater"?

Anyone who questions the right of Jews to have their own land where they can live free and govern their life is a Jew-hater. Does anyone in the world suggests that maybe France don't have the right to exist? Does anybody doubts the right of China to be free? No. Only Israel is a focus for discussion on its right to exist. And that's racism.


Who here has said that Jews don't have any human rights? I sure as hell didn't. And yes, the citizens of the state of Israel definitely have the right to exist in a peaceful and secure environment. But no more or no less than the Palestinians.

Some people here implied that is o.k. to blow up Jewish buses. Some claim that Jews don't have the right to defend themselves. When someone supports terrorism against Jews, one dismisses the Jews right to live.


The last "elections" in the PA were held at 1996. Since then 7 years have passed. Don't you think it is undemocratic? By the way, Hiltler, Stalin, Assad and Saddan were also elected. Does it mean their reigms were democracies?

Stalinist Russia? Democracy? Are you now going to argue that Stalin came to power within a democratic regime?

And Hitler wasn't elected to his position. He was appointed by the Chancellor, although granted it was after the Nazis won the most seats in the Reichstag.


But the Stalinist Russia had "elections" and Stalin always of almost 100% of the votes. And yet, no one claims that it was a democarcy. So is the case with the PA.
Hitler was appointed democarticly and according to the laws but used his paralaiment majority to pass laws which turn him into a dictator. So as Arafat. He is also a dictator who turn democarcy upside down.


Whilst I fundamentally agree that 7 years is too long a term, Arafat still has a large majority backing. This does lend him *some* legitimacy in the eyes of the world, like it or not.

Hitler also had a lot of support within the German population. Believe it or not, Hitler was pretty good for the Arian Germans (not to minorities, however). When Arafat became a ruthless dictator who commencing mass murder his loses his legitimicy.

[Nasty Bastard]

As this thread has taken on a quite personal tone, this will be my last post on this topic.



Anyone who questions the right of Jews to have their own land where they can live free and govern their life is a Jew-hater. Does anyone in the world suggests that maybe France don't have the right to exist? Does anybody doubts the right of China to be free? No. Only Israel is a focus for discussion on its right to exist. And that's racism.

Do you understand what an inflammatory remark this is? Labelling someone who questioned whether the creation of Israel may have been better implemented, a racist? By suggesting that it could have been more inclusive, or that things may have been done in a better way?

You're saying that if I decided that I wanted a homeland where I could do as I wished and lived freely, I could go and create NastyBastardLand, claim a small part of Australia that I felt strongly about as my own country, and then call anyone who said "Hey, whats up with that?" a "NastyBastard-hater"?

I could just as simply label you a "thought-hater" for describing someone who asks such a question in return. So I'm a "Jew-hater" for asking a question? What a load of ****. I have no problem with anyone who wants to live freely, and govern their life. Thats all fine. I wish that everyone could do the same. The problem is when two groups believe that their own land belongs exclusively to them (I'm speaking of sentiment, rather than actually owning the land here), when in fact, it doesn't belong exclusively to either one of them. Both groups have claims which are widely seen as legitimate. So you're not giving me a choice but to hate some group? Sorry, but I don't feel that strongly about either group. I neither love nor hate either side.

And you can't draw a comparison between the question of the existence of China and France to Israel. Those two countries have existed (in a widely accepted manner) for a much longer time. People are still around today who remember the issue of the creation of Israel. People are not around today who remember the creation of China and France. Do you see how you can't compare them? I'm sure at the time of the creation of France and China, yes, some people would have questioned their existence, and maybe for many decades after. But those people are all dead, and the issue has long since gone away, as will happen over time in Israels case.

Until then, you're going to have a lot of people saying "what if", "wouldn't the world be a nicer place if x happened?", and "what were the alternatives?". Some of them will ask the questions in a cynical matter. Others will be genuine. I hope you learn the difference a bit better.

[IDFM203]

I understand that your post wasn’t directly specifically towards me so I wont respond verbatim to very point that you made

What is pretty obvious with your ”both sides” argument is that you fail to understand the concept of moral equivalence

Meaning it is not the same thing when the Jews claim ownership of that land based on them being there and then having been attacked by the Arabs and then defeating them to the Palestinians that claim its their land because they and their Arab brethren attacked the Jews and then before and after they lost they fled.

There is a big difference in the claim by the Jews for their land because they were there and they defeated an invading army then the claim by the Palestinians that were also there but they left on their own after they and their brethren attacked the Jews that were there. But of course they now claim that they were all kicked out. Which is a factual lie.



So in summary. Both claims are not morally equivalent or the same in justification. We could argue all day but the realty is that one claim has more justification then the other.

[Luxembourger]

adri wrote
*there way of hanging there flags (every where, any time) yeah, it realy pisses me off

what s wrong about the way the americans hang their flags????

[cut]

Did you really have to bring this thread back from the dead? there's already one just like it.

[Luxembourger]

yes because there are some unanswered posts ;)

[cut]

:cantbeli: :roll:

[Ichhabe]

Did you really have to bring this thread back from the dead? there's already one just like it.

I bet you a £ 1000 that George W. Bush, when he is opening his mouth has two tounges. Cause he has Luxembourger's tounge so deep up his a** that... You know what I mean. ;)

Let this thread die in silent grace, please.

[Tommy Gunn]

Atleast I tried.

Discussions like these will feed your prejudices & narrow your minds. Nor will it help limit violence or terrorrism. Nothing has been gained since page one.

What is the purpose?

To get the last word?

Well we get to see the how the Euro-Left is in support of PLO terrorism. We get a clearer understanding of our "allies" (notably the French) that have been trying to sabotauge our efforts in the middle east against these terrorists and the despotic regimes that support them.

[cut]

efforts, what efforts? I don't think the US or the UK for that matter can do anything after having started the war in Iraq.

[fantassin]

Tommygun, here's for you and your unsecurity:

Francophobia

"[The Phobia Clinic's] bold promise — that clients remove their fears and phobias forever — gives readers good reason to pause..."

The human nervous system is capable of developing irrational fears of anything at all. Some fears, such as flying or public speaking are clearly more widespread, but there are now formally named phobias.

A phobia is defined as an unwwarranted and irrational fear, and at The Phobia Clinic we assist individuals in overcoming fears and phobias of all kinds.

The Phobia List includes unwarranted and irrational phobias of a number of nationalities:

Anglophobia
Dutchphobia
Francophobia
Germanophobia
Japanophobia
Judeophobia
Russophobia
Sinophobia

In reality irrational fears exist towards all races and nationalities, it is simply that these are the ones which have been formally named and listed.

The Phobia Clinic is dedicated to helping all individuals overcome all inappropriate fears and phobias.

[cut]

there's nothing particular about tommy gunn's fears it's xenophobia.

[usa320]

something against humenrigths; sould we then suport that kinds of terrorist acts ? (remember I wrote "IF")

Shut the **** up. YOur a moron who doesnt understand the very meaning of terrorism. You dont understand the climate of worldwide politics.

Terrorists didnt give two ****s when they turned airliners into missiles and burried thousands of people under millions of tons of burning concrete.

Saddam Hussein didnt give a half a **** when he gassed the kurds or murdered anyone who said what he didnt want to hear. He didnt give a **** about human rights when he fed people into the shredder, dropped men of buildings, chopped peoples finger's off one by one, raped children and waht not. Its his mass graves that are against human rights. Allowing Saddam Hussein to remain in power, would not only guarantee the deaths of a million or so more, but letting him continue his campaign of murder would be the greatest infraction of human rights ever. It was our duty as the civilized world to remove him and his thugs from power.

[mustamato]

Terrorists didnt give two ****s when they turned airliners into missiles and burried thousands of people under millions of tons of burning concrete.

And have you ever given any though about why they did it? I guess you
are too young to remember Clinton, but he sent his missiles amongst others
against a medical factory in Sudan. The only difference is that Al-Qaida doesn´t
have Tomahawks, so they hijack planes instead.

Personally I consider you to be just as fanatic as any Al-Qaida.

[usa320]

No asswipe. If they had a problem with the US, they could have fought with guns and bombs, on a battlefied. But instead of soldiers, they decided to kill working men, women and children. That however is what makes the difference between armies and terrorists. Prisoners of war, and enemy combatants.

There was NO excuse for their actions, none what so ever.

And you are just as sinister as they are for trying to justify what they did.



And have you ever given any though about why they did it?

Because they are evil.


too young to remember Clinton

Yes i do remember. It was his inaction against terrorism, him not taking the problem seriously, that led to this problem in the first place.


Personally I consider you to be just as fanatic as any Al-Qaida.

Do you see me strapping bombs to myself, hijacking planes and blowing up elementary schools?

Didnt think so.

You and your friend Bin Laden, your problem is you have an inferiority complex. You are afraid you arent good enough. Bottom line is you and the people you lend your vocal support to are pansies. They rather kill women and children than settle things like gentlemen- on a battlefield or with their fists.


http://www.superior.net/~zendokai/images/WTC.jpg

We will continue our fight against terrorism. Rather or not Europe likes it. We will hunt down and punish each and every one of those brutal men who carry out the deeds of evil- before they can strike again. If you dont like that thats too damn bad. America wont let it happen again.

[mustamato]

And have you ever given any though about why they did it?

Because they are evil

http://koti.mbnet.fi/enforcer/more****/197-nothing.jpg

[usa320]

Is that the best you can do? You are weak. Weak morally and mentally. You are insecure. You are just like them. You cant form an educated opinion of your own, instead all you can do is post silly cartoons and harsh words.

Things will be different when terrorists attack Europe, which because of the complacence of much of that continent, will happen, its only a matter of time.

[mustamato]

You are just like them.

Exactly.

[usa320]

Have you no shame? No self respect, no dignity or humility towards a fellow man?

Anyone who supports terrorists is just as evil as they are.

You mustamato, are evil. Sinister down to the cold, crude heart at the center of you. Sinister in that sick, twisted, brainwashed mind of yours.

im gonna quote this in case you change your words...


Me: You are just like them. (reffering to the terrorists)


Mustamato: Exactly.

[mustamato]

So now you will hunt me down? :lol:

[Kriz]

Is that the best you can do? You are weak. Weak morally and mentally. You are insecure. You are just like them. You cant form an educated opinion of your own, instead all you can do is post silly cartoons and harsh words.

Things will be different when terrorists attack Europe, which because of the complacence of much of that continent, will happen, its only a matter of time.

Wow you are really retarded or just to young, did it ever occur to you that terrorism has been a part of European history.
Let's see perhaps you remember the IRA ? Or the terrorist attacks in France during the struggle for Algerian independance ?
Or perhaps terror attacks in north Spain ?

Even my country had it's share of terror attacks from the CCC some stupid communist movement.

So don't go the Europe never had to suffer a terrorist attack line because it's totally incorrect.

Thank you, next in line please !

[usa320]

No Mustamato, but keep voicing your support for Mr. Laden. Talk like a fanatic... Because keep the crazy talk up and someone else will be hunting you down... YOu werent here long enough to remember mortimer, so let me tell you about mortimer-

Mortimer was a fool much like yourself- someone who vocally supported Al Queda. One day Mortimer decided to post threats upon the life of the President. Someone acted appropriately and directed the thread to the authorities. Mortimer was never heard from on this forum again.

[usa320]

So don't go the Europe never had to suffer a terrorist attack line because it's totally incorrect.


You are correct. What i was reffering to was an attack carried out by the same organization that attacked the US. A Large scale attack. inflicting many casusalties. Not a car bombing or shootout...

[fantassin]

"Things will be different when terrorists attack Europe"

So, unless it happens in the US it's not happening is it? Terrorism did not start with 9/11 in Europe.

Just a few example of terrorist attacks in France or against French citizens since 1974.

Mort=Killed
Blessé=Wounded


2000 19 avril 2000 : Quévert (Bretagne, France). Explosion d'une bombe dans un McDonald's
1 mort, 6 blessés.

1996 27 mai 1996 : Assassinat de M. Rezda Mazlouman, ex vice-ministre du Shah d'Iran, réfugié en France depuis 1982.


3 décembre 1996 : RER Port-Royal (Paris, France)
4 morts - 170 blessés
L'enquête relative à cet acte de terrorisme est au point mort
> Procédure en cours

1995 11 juillet 1995 : Assassinat de M. Abdelbaki Sahraoui, Imam de la Mosquée du 18eme arrondissement de Paris et d'un proche, Ahmed Omar (rue Myrha, Paris, France).


15 juillet 1995 : Fusillade de Bron - Région lyonnaise (France)
Attentat terroriste attribué au G.I.A. (Groupe islamique armé)
3 policiers blessés.


25 juillet 1995 : RER Saint-Michel (Paris, France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD et à Rachid RAMDA
8 morts, 200 blessés.

7 août 1995 : Place de l'Etoile (Avenue de Friedland, Paris, France)
20 blessés

3 septembre 1995 : marché Richard Lenoir (Paris, France) .
4 blessés

7 septembre 1995 : Ecole de Villeurbanne (France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Khaded KELKAL décédé
32 blessés

6 octobre 1995 : Station de métro Maison Blanche (avenue d'Italie, Paris, France)

Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD et à Rachid RAMDA
16 blessés.

17 octobre 1995 : RER - Musée d'Orsay (Paris, France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD, Ait Ali BELKACEM et Rachid RAMDA
30 blessés.

1994 24 au 26 décembre 1994 : Détournement d'un Airbus d'Air France, ligne Alger-Paris

Détournement attribué au G.I.A. (Groupe islamique armé)
3 passagers décédés et 236 otages

1991 18 avril 1991: Assassinat de M. Boroumand, Iranien (Paris, France)


6 août 1991 : Assassinat de MM. Chapour Bakhtiar et Sorouche Katibeth. (Suresnes, France)

1990 27 septembre 1990 : Café de Paris - Djibouti
1 mort (enfant de 6 ans), 15 blessés

23 octobre 1990 : Assassinat du Dr Dariush Elahi (Créteil, France)


1989 19 septembre 1989 : Explosion du DC 10 d'UTA au-dessus du Désert du Ténéré (Tchad)
170 morts

1988 11 juillet 1988 : City of Poros (Grèce)

Bateau assurant la liaison entre Athènes et des îles grecques
9 morts dont 3 Français, 80 blessés français


22 octobre 1988 : cinéma Saint-Michel (Paris, France)
13 blessés

1987 19 novembre 1987 : Parking de la rue Falguière, Paris 15e Arrondissement, (France)
3 blessés


1986 9 juillet 1986 : Brigade de Répression du Banditisme, Tour Montparnasse (Paris, France)
1 mort (le Commissaire Basdevant) et 20 policiers blessés



1986 Série d'attentats terroristes imputés au Groupe dirigé par Foued Ali Saleh:
3 février 1986 : Galerie du Claridge (Champs Elysées, Paris)
7 blessés

3 février 1986 : Tentative de destruction de la Tour Eiffel (Paris)

4 février 1986 : Librairie Gibert-Jeune (Paris)
4 blessés

5 février 1986 : FNAC-Sports, Forum des Halles (Paris)
15 blessés

17 mars 1986 : Tentative d'assassinats dans le TGV Paris-Lyon (Paris)
9 blessés

20 mars 1986 : Galerie Point-Show (Champs Elysées Paris)
2 morts, 21 blessés

20 mars 1986 : Tentative d'attentat contre le RER, Ligne A, Stations Etoile et Auber (Paris)

20 mars 1986 : Tentative d'attentat contre le RER, Ligne A, Station Etoile (Paris)

8 septembre 1986 : Poste de l'Hôtel de Ville (Paris)
1 mort, 16 blessés

12 septembre 1986 : Cafétaria du Magasin Casino - La Défense (Banlieue de Paris)
43 blessés

14 septembre 1986 : Pub Renault (Paris)
2 morts, 1 blessé

15 septembre 1986 : Préfecture de Police (Paris)
1 mort, 45 blessés

17 septembre 1986 : Magasin TATI, Rue de Rennes (Paris)
7 morts, 54 blessés


1985 23 février 1985 : Magasin Marks & Spencer (Paris-France)
1 mort, 14 blessés


7 décembre 1985 : Galeries Lafayette et Printemps (Paris-France)
51 blessés

1983 31 décembre 1983 : Gare Saint-Charles (Marseille, France)
5 morts, 50 blessés


31 décembre 1983 : TGV, Tain l'Hermitage (Vallée du Rhône, France)
2 morts


1982 29 mars 1982 : Le Capitole, Train Paris-Toulouse (France)
5 morts, 28 blessés

22 avril 1982 : Rue Marbeuf (Paris, France)
1 mort, 63 blessés

9 août 1982 : Rue des Rosiers (Paris, France)
6 morts, 22 blessés
Acte de terrorisme attribué au groupe Abou Nidal


11 août 1982 : Rue de la Baume (Paris, France)
1 blessé

1980 18 juillet 1980 : Tentative d'attentat contre M. Chapour Bakhtiar (Suresnes, France)
2 morts, 2 blessés

3 octobre 1980 : Synagogue de la rue Copernic (Paris, France)
4 morts, 22 blessés
Acte de terrorisme attribué au groupe Abou Nidal


1975 27 juin 1975 : Rue Toullier (Paris, France)
2 morts, 1 blessé


1974 15 septembre 1974 : Drugstore Saint Germain (Paris, France)
2 morts, 34 blessés
Acte de terrorisme revendiqué par Ilich Ramirez Sanchez dit Carlos

[the_spec]

@usa320:

Shut the f*** up. YOur a moron who doesnt understand the very meaning of terrorism. You dont understand the climate of worldwide politics.
That's actually pretty funny coming from you, 'cause after what you wrote here it seems that you don't have much of a clue about worldwide politics and terrorism.

Saddam Hussein didnt give a half a **** when he gassed the kurds or murdered anyone who said what he didnt want to hear. He didnt give a **** about human rights when he fed people into the shredder, dropped men of buildings, chopped peoples finger's off one by one, raped children and waht not. Its his mass graves that are against human rights.
A lot of countries, especially the USA, didn't give a **** for a long time and they continue to do so concerning other regions of the world.
Getting rid of saddam now might look like a great thing to you, but it does not make the people alive that died under his rule between the US first chance in '91 and last years war. So please, don't use that **** as an argument, because it only shows how long the world has looked away.

No asswipe. If they had a problem with the US, they could have fought with guns and bombs, on a battlefied. But instead of soldiers, they decided to kill working men, women and children. That however is what makes the difference between armies and terrorists. Prisoners of war, and enemy combatants.
No they could not have fought the US with guns and bombs, simply because they don't have the capabilities. Maybe you haven't been told yet, but al qaida is a terrorist organization, not a country or anything. That's the very essence of terrorism: striking the enemy's heart with fear, 'cause he's too strong for an open confrontation. Terrorist acts are not commited out of boredom, but for a reason and if blind fools like you close your eyes to these realities, then you will ultimately loose the battle against terrorism.

Because they are evil.
Darth Vader is evil, but this is reality and seperating the world into good and evil is the way a child does it. A child is not able to see the grey shades, an adult on the other hand should be able to do that. The fact that you make such an idiotic statement about terrorist aims just shows me that you have no clue what's going on.

Things will be different when terrorists attack Europe, which because of the complacence of much of that continent, will happen, its only a matter of time.
When it happens, then only because of our support for the USA. Think about it little boy.

[Argyll]

No asswipe. If they had a problem with the US, they could have fought with guns and bombs, on a battlefied. But instead of soldiers, they decided to kill working men, women and children. That however is what makes the difference between armies and terrorists. Prisoners of war, and enemy combatants.

There was NO excuse for their actions, none what so ever.

And you are just as sinister as they are for trying to justify what they did.



And have you ever given any though about why they did it?

Because they are evil.


too young to remember Clinton

Yes i do remember. It was his inaction against terrorism, him not taking the problem seriously, that led to this problem in the first place.


Personally I consider you to be just as fanatic as any Al-Qaida.

Do you see me strapping bombs to myself, hijacking planes and blowing up elementary schools?

Didnt think so.

You and your friend Bin Laden, your problem is you have an inferiority complex. You are afraid you arent good enough. Bottom line is you and the people you lend your vocal support to are pansies. They rather kill women and children than settle things like gentlemen- on a battlefield or with their fists.


http://www.superior.net/~zendokai/images/WTC.jpg

We will continue our fight against terrorism. Rather or not Europe likes it. We will hunt down and punish each and every one of those brutal men who carry out the deeds of evil- before they can strike again. If you dont like that thats too damn bad. America wont let it happen again.


Hey retard,when are you going to quit using 9/11 as an excuse buddy,it was an outrage and a tragedy yes,but your constant referal to it as the definition of Terrorism is ignorance at best!
You seem to be the ONLY person here who uses this repeatedly,and you get told the same thing over and over again,we in the UK were dealing with Fanatics long before you were born,the only thing they did not do was intentionally blow themselves up,you think suicide bombers are a new concept,have you never heard of the Japanese Kamikaze?
Answer me this OBL called a Jihad on the USA yes?
What part of having a war declared on you do you not understand?
The Japanese were also at war with the USA yes?
And you clearly understand this yes?
When an Islamic nutter blows himself up in what he considers a Jihad it an act of terror.......which I agree on by the way.
But when a Jap Kamikaze ploughed his craft into a ship was this different
Was the intent not the same?
Was the intent not to achieve maximum destruction whatever the cost?
Granted the targets were Naval Targets ,in most cases,though civilian transports were also targeted,but the Japanese did not think twice about the "Suicide Bomber" against Allied targets did they?

The point I'm making here is that suicide attacks are nothing new,the Japanese during WW2 went under the code of Bushido,they were fanatical,they would use every means possible to achieve the destruction of their enemy,an enemy they were at war with.

Today we have the Islamic Fantics,the difference here is they do not distinguish targets,Military from civilian,they are doing the same they use fear as a weapon,it is unthinkable and incomprehensible to us in the western world,of why they would take their own lives to kill innocent civilians,they simply see all westerners as the enemy ,not just the ones in Uniform!

Tell me what actions George Bush Snr took against World terror?
You say you will take action and hunt them down.........funny I have not heard of any US action in Saudi Arabia lately have you?Considering the bulk of 9/11 hijackers came from there........but wait what's this ....oh just because the Saudi's tell you they are actually doing something,you actually believe them........yeah right,same as Pakistan,they are harbouring AQ buddy,and the Intelligence folks know this

[mustamato]

No Mustamato, but keep voicing your support for Mr. Laden. Talk like a fanatic... Because keep the crazy talk up and someone else will be hunting you down... YOu werent here long enough to remember mortimer, so let me tell you about mortimer-

Mortimer was a fool much like yourself- someone who vocally supported Al Queda. One day Mortimer decided to post threats upon the life of the President. Someone acted appropriately and directed the thread to the authorities. Mortimer was never heard from on this forum again.

Actually I drink Mekka Cola. Who knows where the money end up. Sure
as hell not in the US military atleast :) And by the way I don´t live in the
US, and here we still have something called justice left. So your Orwellian
"patriot act" doesn´t really apply on me.

[Luxembourger]

Ichhabe ( meine Intelligenz in den Muskeln) wrote
I bet you a £ 1000 that George W. Bush, when he is opening his mouth has two tounges. Cause he has Luxembourger's tounge so deep up his a** that... You know what I mean.

Let this thread die in silent grace, please.

I see ,your comment is great it shows that your are the most intelligent human being in this forum . Keep on with your work and enlighten us more.

Again if someone in Europe likes the USA. he is stamped as an Bush a** licker ...those people who stamp us like this are non tolerant USa hater who think that admiring America is bad , evil .,,people who say nastiy comments like " fu** or shu* up or as**ole think they have a great sense of humor .

Very nice man. :D

[the_spec]

Again if someone in Europe likes the USA. he is stamped as an Bush a** licker
What would you call someone with an unconditional admiration for the US? The only thing you're telling us europeans here is why we should love the US and what asses we are if we don't. Great.

[Luxembourger]

did I ever say that anyone who does not admire the US is an ass? ?????
It s acctually the contrary,,,I am stamped as an ass or non eurpean if I say that the US does sth good

[usa320]

The point I'm making here is that suicide attacks are nothing new,the Japanese during WW2 went under the code of Bushido,they were fanatical,they would use every means possible to achieve the destruction of their enemy,an enemy they were at war with.


Difference between Bushido and terrorism is simple. Japan attacked uniformed militiaries. Ships. Naval bases. They may have killed civilians at pearl harbor, but their aim wasnt to do so.

On the other hand, terrorists specifically target civilians and citizens instead of military or governmental targets.

As for shades of grey and all that ****- there are no more shades of grey.

There is good, and there is evil.

That is all.

[fantassin]

On the other hand, terrorists specifically target civilians and citizens instead of military or governmental targets.




That's what happens when an army is too powerful to be attacked head on.

You should get used to it; apart from North Korea, I can't see many countries who'd be stupid enough to face the might of the US armed forces.

But it also means that any american, regardless of place, age and gender is now legitimate target. The weaker, the better. Your next battlefields will be called Wall Mart, Nike Town or Time Square.

[usa320]

Things will be different when terrorists attack Europe"

So, unless it happens in the US it's not happening is it? Terrorism did not start with 9/11 in Europe.

Just a few example of terrorist attacks in France or against French citizens since 1974.

Mort=Killed
Blessé=Wounded


2000 19 avril 2000 : Quévert (Bretagne, France). Explosion d'une bombe dans un McDonald's
1 mort, 6 blessés.

1996 27 mai 1996 : Assassinat de M. Rezda Mazlouman, ex vice-ministre du Shah d'Iran, réfugié en France depuis 1982.


3 décembre 1996 : RER Port-Royal (Paris, France)
4 morts - 170 blessés
L'enquête relative à cet acte de terrorisme est au point mort
> Procédure en cours

1995 11 juillet 1995 : Assassinat de M. Abdelbaki Sahraoui, Imam de la Mosquée du 18eme arrondissement de Paris et d'un proche, Ahmed Omar (rue Myrha, Paris, France).


15 juillet 1995 : Fusillade de Bron - Région lyonnaise (France)
Attentat terroriste attribué au G.I.A. (Groupe islamique armé)
3 policiers blessés.


25 juillet 1995 : RER Saint-Michel (Paris, France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD et à Rachid RAMDA
8 morts, 200 blessés.

7 août 1995 : Place de l'Etoile (Avenue de Friedland, Paris, France)
20 blessés

3 septembre 1995 : marché Richard Lenoir (Paris, France) .
4 blessés

7 septembre 1995 : Ecole de Villeurbanne (France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Khaded KELKAL décédé
32 blessés

6 octobre 1995 : Station de métro Maison Blanche (avenue d'Italie, Paris, France)

Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD et à Rachid RAMDA
16 blessés.

17 octobre 1995 : RER - Musée d'Orsay (Paris, France)
Acte de terrorisme attribué à Boualem BENSAÏD, Ait Ali BELKACEM et Rachid RAMDA
30 blessés.

1994 24 au 26 décembre 1994 : Détournement d'un Airbus d'Air France, ligne Alger-Paris

Détournement attribué au G.I.A. (Groupe islamique armé)
3 passagers décédés et 236 otages

1991 18 avril 1991: Assassinat de M. Boroumand, Iranien (Paris, France)


6 août 1991 : Assassinat de MM. Chapour Bakhtiar et Sorouche Katibeth. (Suresnes, France)

1990 27 septembre 1990 : Café de Paris - Djibouti
1 mort (enfant de 6 ans), 15 blessés

23 octobre 1990 : Assassinat du Dr Dariush Elahi (Créteil, France)


1989 19 septembre 1989 : Explosion du DC 10 d'UTA au-dessus du Désert du Ténéré (Tchad)
170 morts

1988 11 juillet 1988 : City of Poros (Grèce)

Bateau assurant la liaison entre Athènes et des îles grecques
9 morts dont 3 Français, 80 blessés français


22 octobre 1988 : cinéma Saint-Michel (Paris, France)
13 blessés

1987 19 novembre 1987 : Parking de la rue Falguière, Paris 15e Arrondissement, (France)
3 blessés


1986 9 juillet 1986 : Brigade de Répression du Banditisme, Tour Montparnasse (Paris, France)
1 mort (le Commissaire Basdevant) et 20 policiers blessés



1986 Série d'attentats terroristes imputés au Groupe dirigé par Foued Ali Saleh:
3 février 1986 : Galerie du Claridge (Champs Elysées, Paris)
7 blessés

3 février 1986 : Tentative de destruction de la Tour Eiffel (Paris)

4 février 1986 : Librairie Gibert-Jeune (Paris)
4 blessés

5 février 1986 : FNAC-Sports, Forum des Halles (Paris)
15 blessés

17 mars 1986 : Tentative d'assassinats dans le TGV Paris-Lyon (Paris)
9 blessés

20 mars 1986 : Galerie Point-Show (Champs Elysées Paris)
2 morts, 21 blessés

20 mars 1986 : Tentative d'attentat contre le RER, Ligne A, Stations Etoile et Auber (Paris)

20 mars 1986 : Tentative d'attentat contre le RER, Ligne A, Station Etoile (Paris)

8 septembre 1986 : Poste de l'Hôtel de Ville (Paris)
1 mort, 16 blessés

12 septembre 1986 : Cafétaria du Magasin Casino - La Défense (Banlieue de Paris)
43 blessés

14 septembre 1986 : Pub Renault (Paris)
2 morts, 1 blessé

15 septembre 1986 : Préfecture de Police (Paris)
1 mort, 45 blessés

17 septembre 1986 : Magasin TATI, Rue de Rennes (Paris)
7 morts, 54 blessés


1985 23 février 1985 : Magasin Marks & Spencer (Paris-France)
1 mort, 14 blessés


7 décembre 1985 : Galeries Lafayette et Printemps (Paris-France)
51 blessés

1983 31 décembre 1983 : Gare Saint-Charles (Marseille, France)
5 morts, 50 blessés


31 décembre 1983 : TGV, Tain l'Hermitage (Vallée du Rhône, France)
2 morts


1982 29 mars 1982 : Le Capitole, Train Paris-Toulouse (France)
5 morts, 28 blessés

22 avril 1982 : Rue Marbeuf (Paris, France)
1 mort, 63 blessés

9 août 1982 : Rue des Rosiers (Paris, France)
6 morts, 22 blessés
Acte de terrorisme attribué au groupe Abou Nidal


11 août 1982 : Rue de la Baume (Paris, France)
1 blessé

1980 18 juillet 1980 : Tentative d'attentat contre M. Chapour Bakhtiar (Suresnes, France)
2 morts, 2 blessés

3 octobre 1980 : Synagogue de la rue Copernic (Paris, France)
4 morts, 22 blessés
Acte de terrorisme attribué au groupe Abou Nidal


1975 27 juin 1975 : Rue Toullier (Paris, France)
2 morts, 1 blessé


1974 15 septembre 1974 : Drugstore Saint Germain (Paris, France)
2 morts, 34 blessés
Acte de terrorisme revendiqué par Ilich Ramirez Sanchez dit Carlos


Thats about 225 casualties... as compared to 3,000 on 9-11... France has yet to see anything comparable to what we in America saw, but in time they will, perhaps then they will realize that appeasement wont get them anywhere.

[the_spec]

As for shades of grey and all that ****- there are no more shades of grey.

There is good, and there is evil.
Yes, in your own little world there probably is only good and evil. But I have to ask you to leave that world outside the forums, 'cause you're only making yourself look stupid and uneducated if you keep posting statements based on that little world.
And as argyll said, terrorism existed long before 9/11 and the way you're using this tragic event as an excuse to bash everyone who's not of your narrow minded opinion is simply sickening. Retard.

@lux:


It s acctually the contrary,,,I am stamped as an ass or non eurpean if I say that the US does sth good
No, you're saying that everything the US does is good and all we europeans should start realizing just how right you are and that is, simply said, asslicking.[/quote]

[usa320]

But it also means that any american, regardless of place, age and gender is now legitimate target. The weaker, the better. Your next battlefields will be called Wall Mart, Nike Town or Time Square.

No. Civilians arent a legimitimate target, i dont give two damns about what the excuse is... Civilians have never been, and never will be a legitimate target in war- and thats per the UN...

If your army is weaker than the US, than you probably shouldnt even **** with us in the first place.





any american, regardless of place, age and gender is now legitimate target.

Yeah...they can try to kill Americans...but terrorists should have learned their lesson... Killing American civilians means the end of their terrorist network.

Al Queda attacked NYC assuming we would be devestated- instead all that did is insure their own destruction in due time. Now more than 2/3 of that group is no more, and whats left can only attack soft targets in primitive manners.

[Argyll]

Don't you like your own country Luxembourger?

USA 320....the japanese never intended to attack civilian targets?
Are you fer fokin real man,a substantia amount of the Jap Atrocities were commited against civilians,Hospital ships were torpedoed,Hospitals were bombed,in Singapore the wounded were bayoneted in their beds,along with nurses Doctors and anything else that resembled a European!........oh yeah but they didn't intentionaly do it ,it was an"accident".

The point I made was that using sucicide bombers as a weapon of war is nothing new,yet this seems to be your perception.Terrorists again do not just target Civilians or civilian infrastructure,they target anything that belongs to their enemy.........and that means unfortunately civilians.

You are still naive when it comes to terrorism buddy,try doing some research!Terrorism is as old as warfare itself,it is your definition that is different from everyones elses!

[mustamato]

I am somewhat confused here usa320. Isn´t Al-Qaida more an example
of that resistance is not futile? Two more americans dead in Iraq
today, and well, atleast the americans claim that it is the Al-Qaida that
is behind the attacks in Iraq.

From my point of view I don´t see USA winning against them, do you?

[fantassin]

Time to go to bed now, it's late.

[the_spec]

If your army is weaker than the US, than you probably shouldnt even f*** with us in the first place.
Oh please.... :roll:
I thought you would have learned by now. Terrorist organizations are not states with armies who officially declare war on you. They don't give a **** about international laws, that's why they are being labeled as terrorists, you moron. Whether you like it or not such attacks will continue to take place against civilians and soft targets and if you don't start asking yourself why that is happening and keep talking **** like "they're all evil and we will hunt them down" then you will fail.


Al Queda attacked NYC assuming we would be devestated- instead all that did is insure their own destruction in due time. Now more than 2/3 of that group is no more, and whats left can only attack soft targets in primitive manners..
And how would litttle boy know what the damage to al qaida is? In your simple silly little world it's just "They attack us, we destroy them, world is fine". But it's not that simple 'cause now you have iraq as a hotspot full of terrorist attacks, which only show us that terrorism is still at large.

[Skaman]

Hey retard,when are you going to quit using 9/11 as an excuse buddy,it was an outrage and a tragedy yes,but your constant referal to it as the definition of Terrorism is ignorance at best!
You seem to be the ONLY person here who uses this repeatedly,and you get told the same thing over and over again,we in the UK were dealing with Fanatics long before you were born,the only thing they did not do was intentionally blow themselves up,you think suicide bombers are a new concept,have you never heard of the Japanese Kamikaze?
Answer me this OBL called a Jihad on the USA yes?
What part of having a war declared on you do you not understand?
The Japanese were also at war with the USA yes?
And you clearly understand this yes?
When an Islamic nutter blows himself up in what he considers a Jihad it an act of terror.......which I agree on by the way.
But when a Jap Kamikaze ploughed his craft into a ship was this different
Was the intent not the same?
Was the intent not to achieve maximum destruction whatever the cost?
Granted the targets were Naval Targets ,in most cases,though civilian transports were also targeted,but the Japanese did not think twice about the "Suicide Bomber" against Allied targets did they?

The point I'm making here is that suicide attacks are nothing new,the Japanese during WW2 went under the code of Bushido,they were fanatical,they would use every means possible to achieve the destruction of their enemy,an enemy they were at war with.

Today we have the Islamic Fantics,the difference here is they do not distinguish targets,Military from civilian,they are doing the same they use fear as a weapon,it is unthinkable and incomprehensible to us in the western world,of why they would take their own lives to kill innocent civilians,they simply see all westerners as the enemy ,not just the ones in Uniform!

Tell me what actions George Bush Snr took against World terror?
You say you will take action and hunt them down.........funny I have not heard of any US action in Saudi Arabia lately have you?Considering the bulk of 9/11 hijackers came from there........but wait what's this ....oh just because the Saudi's tell you they are actually doing something,you actually believe them........yeah right,same as Pakistan,they are harbouring AQ buddy,and the Intelligence folks know this


I am glad I wasn’t on the receiving end of that. "Ducks and Covers."




Argyll, you can continue to explain the nature of this war on terror and the one big fallacy it is, but in the end, if no one is willing to listen, no one will ever learn. Many, not all of these forum members are fixated on their belief, impenetrable to criticism or ideals in contrast to their own. Many are blinded by their patriotism; forum members don’t even realize the bull **** up to their cheeks. Many have tried to reveal some insight into this topic, and time and time again, forum members have been met with failure. You do hold more credibility than the average forum user, yet don’t expect to get through to anyone. Hopefully you will have a little more luck than I and the other ‘anti-Americans’. My lungs are exhausted and I have moved on to another forum I stumbled across: www. http://www.politicsforum.org If you want to talk about politics, here is the place to go. I am going to limit my political sphere on militaryphotos.net and try and keep it military orientated. Half the comments on milphotos boggle the mind, so I’m going to stick to checking out pics in an attempt to preserve my sanity. In the end, don’t bother Argyll, no one is listening, and not enough care.


All the best,

Ducimus

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

K yet again a thread like this has been started ...and yet again is serves no purpose.

I'll say it before and say it again. This time I'll bold if for those of you who maybe illeterate.

When you make fun of other peoples country/stereotype there people/ make fun of there religion/views/beliefs people tend to get angry

That being said saying that the whole entire continent of europe absolutely despise's America (which I think unfortuneatly some Americans are trying to portray that with these "Europe hates America"threads). Thats painting everyone with the same brush...so feel free to administer yourself 1 cockpunch.

Of course there will be individuals that may-not agree with everything that America does, thats ok. Everyone doesnt have to agree on everything, and if they did this world would be a boring place. So to make it simple for the readers you can generally agree to "not agree" on something doesnt make them "Anti-American" ( yet again some user's would tend to think it does make them Anti-American for some reason or if they dont agree some-how they are "liberals" or "extreme left wing).



Now more than 2/3 of that group is no more, and whats left can only attack soft targets in primitive manners.

Remeber that every terrorist captured there is always at least one more to fill the last mans place. With schools teaching Extreme Islamic Fundementalism to young childern, I'm willing to bet that there's alot more of Al-Q out there then we know about.

And always take my comments with one tablespoon of salt :P
{/bastardchilds rant of the day}

[Argyll]

But it also means that any american, regardless of place, age and gender is now legitimate target. The weaker, the better. Your next battlefields will be called Wall Mart, Nike Town or Time Square.

No. Civilians arent a legimitimate target, i dont give two damns about what the excuse is... Civilians have never been, and never will be a legitimate target in war- and thats per the UN...


Oh the same UN you repeatedly criticise?Make your mind up.

If your army is weaker than the US, than you probably shouldnt even f*** with us in the first place.


Oh your such a warrior aren't you,a real fokin genuine hero!







any american, regardless of place, age and gender is now legitimate target.

Yeah...they can try to kill Americans...but terrorists should have learned their lesson... Killing American civilians means the end of their terrorist network.

Is AQ finished and destroyed?

Al Queda attacked NYC assuming we would be devestated- instead all that did is insure their own destruction in due time. Now more than 2/3 of that group is no more, and whats left can only attack soft targets in primitive manners.

Oh really based on what figures would these stastitics come from,or did you pull them from that fat ass of yours when you shat out the definitive Guide to terrorism in the 21st century?
Soft targets in primative manners?You mean the same manners that had you and a few others here claim that AQ were possibly in possesion of a dirty bomb?You have no clue as to the strength and commitment and resources of AQ,just like me,not even the CIA or MI6 are fully aware of how long the tentacles of AQ have spread,You really think your safe and impregnable don't you,well dip****,if Mexicans can get over your borders then so could AQ........think about that for a second,there is no border in the world that is impregnable!
In due time,the fact that the Taliban and AQ are according to Intelligence( rofl ) are regrouping and consolidating,sounds like they're ready to give up a totally defeated Network doesn't it?

[Fenna]

The point I'm making here is that suicide attacks are nothing new,the Japanese during WW2 went under the code of Bushido,they were fanatical,they would use every means possible to achieve the destruction of their enemy,an enemy they were at war with.


Difference between Bushido and terrorism is simple. Japan attacked uniformed militiaries. Ships. Naval bases. They may have killed civilians at pearl harbor, but their aim wasnt to do so.

On the other hand, terrorists specifically target civilians and citizens instead of military or governmental targets.

As for shades of grey and all that ****- there are no more shades of grey.

There is good, and there is evil.

That is all.

Well actually Terrorists don't just attack civilians specifically. Take a look at 70s, 80s and 90s Northern Ireland, British forces personnel getting murdered all the time. Or maybe the Israeli soldiers getting killed at checkpoints.
Not to mention the attack on the USS Cole on October 12, 2000. That was in your eyes a legit target, being military and all.

No shades of grey, only good or evil? Ha, well you're in for a shock. Statements like that make you look very stupid. I'll use the Northern Ireland example again. Do you think the IRA are pure evil because they are terrorists? I don't even think that and I'm British!

Time to wake up I'm afraid and realise that the US Forces and unbeatable, and unfortunately it isn't as clear cut as "Good or Evil". :bash:

[Argyll]

Miss Silverstone

read this link!

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/TerrorTimeline/2002_WhoAreTheSuicideBombers.htm

[Fenna]

Who was that aimed at Argyll?

[Argyll]

The islamaphobic USA320!

[Tommy Gunn]

From my point of view I don´t see USA winning against them, do you?

More like you do not want the USA to win.

The "war on terror is really a clash of civilizations and it has been the egalitarian liberals who instinctively support the Isamic Jihad against Western Civilization.

Argyll, mustamato, and ducimous have been cheerleaders for the Jihadis on this forum, especially this thread.

Want to win the war on Islamic terror? You can end Islamic terrorism on Western nations by rounding up the muslims and ship them back to their native lands. That would be a start. Muslim terrorist agents would not be able to hide in Western cities but for the imported die-versity we have today.

Of course I can already see Argyll, Ducimous, mustamanto, and others really blow a gasket over this. Lets just remember that these guys support the enemy in this clash of civilizations. They love the muslims too much.

[Seiyuuki]

Argyll, you can continue to explain the nature of this war on terror and the one big fallacy it is, but in the end, if no one is willing to listen, no one will ever learn. Many, not all of these forum members are fixated on their belief, impenetrable to criticism or ideals in contrast to their own. Many are blinded by their patriotism; forum members don’t even realize the bull **** up to their cheeks. Many have tried to reveal some insight into this topic, and time and time again, forum members have been met with failure. You do hold more credibility than the average forum user, yet don’t expect to get through to anyone. Hopefully you will have a little more luck than I and the other ‘anti-Americans’. My lungs are exhausted and I have moved on to another forum I stumbled across: www. http://www.politicsforum.org If you want to talk about politics, here is the place to go. I am going to limit my political sphere on militaryphotos.net and try and keep it military orientated. Half the comments on milphotos boggle the mind, so I’m going to stick to checking out pics in an attempt to preserve my sanity. In the end, don’t bother Argyll, no one is listening, and not enough care.


All the best,

Ducimus

Maybe you should try following your own advice first before lecturing somebody else.

[memphiz]

From my point of view I don´t see USA winning against them, do you?

More like you do not want the USA to win.

The "war on terror is really a clash of civilizations and it has been the egalitarian liberals who instinctively support the Isamic Jihad against Western Civilization.

Argyll, mustamato, and ducimous have been cheerleaders for the Jihadis on this forum, especially this thread.

Want to win the war on Islamic terror? You can end Islamic terrorism on Western nations by rounding up the muslims and ship them back to their native lands. That would be a start. Muslim terrorist agents would not be able to hide in Western cities but for the imported die-versity we have today.

Of course I can already see Argyll, Ducimous, mustamanto, and others really blow a gasket over this. Lets just remember that these guys support the enemy in this clash of civilizations. They love the muslims too much.
you Fuucking racist you give a bad name to all Americans, you deserve to die. whats your Fuucking problem did you dad and uncle assfuuck you to much while you grew up
this is the perfect example of what happens when your inbred, you mind goes to hell.

WARNING: SLEEPING WITH RELETIVES WILL MAKE YOU JUST LIKE TOMMY HERE

[ShadowNeo]

More like you do not want the USA to win.

The "war on terror is really a clash of civilizations and it has been the egalitarian liberals who instinctively support the Isamic Jihad against Western Civilization.

Argyll, mustamato, and ducimous have been cheerleaders for the Jihadis on this forum, especially this thread.

Want to win the war on Islamic terror? You can end Islamic terrorism on Western nations by rounding up the muslims and ship them back to their native lands. That would be a start. Muslim terrorist agents would not be able to hide in Western cities but for the imported die-versity we have today.

Of course I can already see Argyll, Ducimous, mustamanto, and others really blow a gasket over this. Lets just remember that these guys support the enemy in this clash of civilizations. They love the muslims too much.

You really are one paranoid brainwashed **** aren't you. If you take your head out of your ass, or perhaps out of hitler's corpse's ass, you will see that Muslims aren't your enemy. I feel sorry for you, because in your accusation of others supporting the terrorist's cause, you have given them support yourself.

By directing your hate and anger towards Muslims in general, you cannot expect anything other than hate and anger back from them. Instead of solving a problem you are making it worse.

[Tommy Gunn]

By directing your hate and anger towards Muslims in general, you cannot expect anything other than hate and anger back from them. Instead of solving a problem you are making it worse.

More of the same defeatism from the egalitariam islamophilles.


The war is a clash of civilizations and the liberals are on the side of the muslims.

[Haiw]

Mortimer was a fool much like yourself- someone who vocally supported Al Queda. One day Mortimer decided to post threats upon the life of the President. Someone acted appropriately and directed the thread to the authorities. Mortimer was never heard from on this forum again.
Huh? Pulling info from our arse again are we? Mortimer simply stopped posting because he couldn't be arsed to keep arguing with all of you over and over again... With the kind of arguments I've seen from you above; I can't blame him.

[cut]

By directing your hate and anger towards Muslims in general, you cannot expect anything other than hate and anger back from them. Instead of solving a problem you are making it worse.

More of the same defeatism from the egalitariam islamophilles.


The war is a clash of civilizations and the liberals are on the side of the muslims.

how does that work if they are ignorant, as you say, to it, how would they be able to side with the muslims?

[Haiw]

Want to win the war on Islamic terror? You can end Islamic terrorism on Western nations by rounding up the muslims and ship them back to their native lands. That would be a start. Muslim terrorist agents would not be able to hide in Western cities but for the imported die-versity we have today.
For christs sake, if you're gonna post KKK extremist crap at least make up your own stuff and don't steal it from Adolf Hitler.

This thread gives headaches...

[Tommy Gunn]

how does that work if they are ignorant, as you say, to it, how would they be able to side with the muslims?

You could learn something from reading Homer's story about the Trojan Horse used by Greek warriors to get into the city of Troy..

Liberal immigration and asylum laws are much like the Trojan Horse in that Islamic militants are entering the Western world.

[Haiw]

Time for you medication! Who let you loose anyway?

[Operation Ivy]

Speaking of oil, are we going to use natural resources to power up our cars or what? I thought they suppose to make cars that run by solar and natural resources a long time ago. Some people do have cars like that but it's way too expensive for the average american. I hope oil become absolete ASAP

Bush said water cars at normal prices by 2015 woot i saw one on the SPIKE TV it was the shizz :D


And jeez i leave for a couple of hours and 9 pages of worthless arguing is going on! :|

[mocking_loudly_died]

A Poem

There once was an d*ck head called tom.

The end

Excuse me....

[cut]

A Poem

There once was an d*ck head called tom.

The end

Excuse me....

:D

[usa320]

Well actually Terrorists don't just attack civilians specifically. Take a look at 70s, 80s and 90s Northern Ireland, British forces personnel getting murdered all the time. Or maybe the Israeli soldiers getting killed at checkpoints.
Not to mention the attack on the USS Cole on October 12, 2000. That was in your eyes a legit target, being military and all.

I dont respect terrorists at all, but i hold those who attack military targets in a slightly higher level than those that murder innocents...

As for me being an islamiphobic, all i have to say is اصمت.

أنت أحمق .

[Tommy Gunn]

And what can I say about some dude who pretends to be an attractive asian woman?

If I said anything are these prissy PC libs going to say that I am homophobic?

[Skaman]

And what can I say about some dude who pretends to be an attractive asian woman?

If I said anything are these prissy PC libs going to say that I am homophobic?


Prissy libs heh? Is it really fair to come to that kind of gender/political stereotype?

[James]

Go get him, Duci. woot

[martinexsquaddie]

There is no clash of civilisation we already won. 2 generations most of the muslims in the west will go to the mosque to get married and for a festivals if that :lol:
Thats why al qaidia and there Death cults hate us so much. given the choice most people are going to perfer DVD's and Pop music,internet,hanging out with friends,reading and thinking what they like. to praying 5 times a day, Doing what your elders and imans tell you :(.
Look at iran the islamic revoultion is in big trouble its not going to last as long as the soviet experment. militant islam breeds dangerous terrorists but its as capable of holding a state together as the weatherman were. The UK and the USA were built on immigration

[Argyll]

Tommy Rectum.
I am no supporter of Terrorism you **** brain,I've seen it up close and personal,I have served my country,with pride and honour.
What I have tried to do is make you see that your clear Islamaphobia is clouding what little intelligence you have.

I think the vast majority of people here know full my stance on terrorism,and many know me well enough to criticise me,but you,you are not fit to lace my boots,your attitude to Islam and to Muslims is quite frankly disturbing,where I come from we have sectarianism(catholic protestant)but we live and work beside each other and generally get on,you on the other hand simply have no grasp on real life whatsoever.

You are a disgrace to the Real American's who post here,and to them I'd say how do you put up with someones intolerance,and clear racial hatred,you disgust me,whilst Real Americans are out there defending your right to say what you do,you spout out your bile like a backward, banjo playing tootheless,stinking incestious loser,I feel sorry for the genuine American's of whom I respect immensley,they must feel dissapointed that a lowlife such as your self can come here and poison the atmosphere and good natured banter with your inane rants.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

You are a disgrace to the Real American's who post here,and to them I'd say how do you put up with someones intolerance,and clear racial hatred,you disgust me,whilst Real Americans are out there defending your right to say what you do,you spout out your bile like a backward, banjo playing tootheless,stinking incestious loser,I feel sorry for the genuine American's of whom I respect immensley,they must feel dissapointed that a lowlife such as your self can come here and poison the atmosphere and good natured banter with your inane rants.

I was going to make a post, after reading Argyll's post I feel there is no more light for me personally to shed on this matter as he's handled it already.

Lets give this type of topics a rest, once and for all.

[marktigger]

militant islam breeds dangerous terrorists

Martinexsquaddie good comment but can i modify it slightly

millitant _________ breeds dangerous terorists.

insert religon/cause of your choice.

[Tommy Gunn]

Terrorism is but a strategy.

The 'War against terror" is just a slogan for the terminally PC crowd to ignore a resurgent Islam.

Look at history. The Holy Land and much the Mediterranean world was Christian before the Islamic conquests. They even invaded much of southern Europe before the Crusades turned things around a bit.

Now look at the world today, there is Jihad everywhere that Islam comes into contact with another culture.

[Tommy Gunn]

Argyll,

The Islamophillia of you and your ilk is what has enabled Islamic terrorism. You Libs opened the gates to the barbarians.

I am not impressed with the way you were killing Irishmen a few years back. I read about how you people fired into demonstrators on what became known as "Bloody Sunday". You were the terrorists, you started that war.

You are not worthy to shine my boots and I would not piss on you if you were on fire.

Remembering
Bloody Sunday
January 30, 1972

(http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/)

[Haiw]

Your look at the world blows. It clearly shows you either get your look of the world from Fox news, or are a person who's KKK hat is in the way of a normal view.

Also, I don't really see how the lack of Islamophobia implies Islamophilia. Also, it amazes me how you come to the conclusion that that lack of Islamophobia leads to Islamic terrorism.
Also the only gate 'we liberals' opened to the barbarians was when we decided to give people like you freedom of speech.
Also, you clearly show your impressing knowledge of the conflict in Northern-Ireland.

Now go and die of that tumor that's eating up your brain.
Have a nice day.

[Argyll]

Argyll,

The Islamophillia of you and your ilk is what has enabled Islamic terrorism. You Libs opened the gates to the barbarians.

I am not impressed with the way you were killing Irishmen a few years back. I read about how you people fired into demonstrators on what became known as "Bloody Sunday". You were the terrorists, you started that war.

You are not worthy to shine my boots and I would not piss on you if you were on fire.

Remembering
Bloody Sunday
January 30, 1972

(http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/)



What a jerkoff!
It is not I who suffers from Islamaphobia,it is you?
I am indifferent to mulims or the folowers of Islam as they have done nothing to me.
Tell me grand Master,what are your views on the following
Jews
African Americans
Asians
Catholics
Protestants
Hindu's
Sikh's

I am not a liberal either....
I'd also suggest you do some research on Northern Irelands troubles

tell me this what are your views on the PIRA.........an orginisation that targeted civilians and military alike?

You have a huge problem man,you seriously need psychiatric help,I'd go and get that seen to if I was you,as that boil on your ass can no longer stand having you as part of it!

[martinexsquaddie]

Mark triggermuch better point than mine. thanks.
Tommy just like your name large overated and ****e to jamming when the **** hits the fan.
questions Have you ever met a Muslim?
have you ever left the USA?
you just don't seem to be able to proccess information at all it helps if you listen to what you are being told you might learn something .

[hank]

Dude, Hood 86ed Tommy Boy. Moot point. He can't respond.

hank

[OldRecon]

Well then what do you call the Rape of Nanking?
Not exactly suicidal action on the part of the Japanese, but without doubt also carried out under the Bushido ethos or what?
Btw many "indigs" in Burma and Indonesia were fed up with being ruled by Europeans and saw a chance for their own independence with the Japanese advances during 1941 - 42. Yet by the end of WW-2 many of those came to judge the Europeans as the lesser evil compared to the Japanese.
How did that come by?

As for the US Middle East strategy I think starting the sideshow in Iraq rather than focusing 100% on Al Qaida was a BIG mistake.
Saddam should have been left to rot on the vine like Ghadaffi.



The point I'm making here is that suicide attacks are nothing new,the Japanese during WW2 went under the code of Bushido,they were fanatical,they would use every means possible to achieve the destruction of their enemy,an enemy they were at war with.


Difference between Bushido and terrorism is simple. Japan attacked uniformed militiaries. Ships. Naval bases. They may have killed civilians at pearl harbor, but their aim wasnt to do so.

On the other hand, terrorists specifically target civilians and citizens instead of military or governmental targets.

As for shades of grey and all that ****- there are no more shades of grey.

There is good, and there is evil.

That is all.

[usa320]

IM gonna have to side with agryll and *oh my* dicmus on this one.

There is definately a difference between your average muslim guy working at his shop, and your Jihad Joe kill all the yanks extremist.

The war on terror is exactly that. A war on terror. There are just as many CT operations going on in non-muslim countries as there are in muslim countries.

[the_spec]

There are just as many CT operations going on in non-muslim countries as there are in muslim countries.
That's funny how you say that. I don't know what you're refering to as "CT Ops in non-muslim countries" but if they were as big as the ones in Afgh. and Iraq, I probably would have heard of them. It certainly seems like the "War on terror" is a war against islamic terror.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Alot of people here need to read history. Islam was a very aggressive, expansionist religion. Islam came to many lands by conquest.

Now I expect some here will start bringing up the Crusades. Let me just point out that the Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression.

Islam is again becoming militant. The 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the Arab-Israeli wars have ignited the fire. This "war on terror" is really a war on Islamic terrorism.

[Trigger]

I'm not getting involved in this little flamefest except for:


Also the only gate 'we liberals' opened to the barbarians was when we decided to give people like you freedom of speech.

You didn't give anything to anyone. How elitist of you to think you did though. ;)

[Skaman]

I'm not getting involved in this little flamefest except for:


Also the only gate 'we liberals' opened to the barbarians was when we decided to give people like you freedom of speech.

You didn't give anything to anyone. How elitist of you to think you did though. ;)


Our very intellectual essence, our capability to posses ‘free thought’ or drive for self improvement all take root from European origin, the cradle of science and thought. The industrial revelation, the protestant reformation, the enlightenment, the scientific enlightenment, all attributed to great European minds. Let us not forget North Americans, that we are not some separate entity, and we are by origin, Europeans.(unless you are Native American) To deny that, not accept that, and chastise they very intellectual roots of out being is idiocy. I could go into this in great lengths, but this should suffice.

[Sixgun Symphony]

And these liberals wish to destroy that Western Civilization by opening the gates to Jihad.

Charles Martel must be rolling in his grave.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Argyll,

I am not impressed with the way you were killing Irishmen a few years back. I read about how you people fired into demonstrators on what became known as "Bloody Sunday". You were the terrorists, you started that war.

You are not worthy to shine my boots and I would not piss on you if you were on fire.



Man, I hope a Para comes to your house and beats the **** out of your stupid red neck arse.

[Argyll]

IM gonna have to side with agryll and *oh my* dicmus on this one.

There is definately a difference between your average muslim guy working at his shop, and your Jihad Joe kill all the yanks extremist.

The war on terror is exactly that. A war on terror. There are just as many CT operations going on in non-muslim countries as there are in muslim countries.

Nicely put there USA 320,seems a lot of folks forget that terrorism is not just an Islamic problem,it is a worldly problem,almost ever country in the World has some faction who would oppose it by means of using terror as a weapon.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Man, I hope a Para comes to your house and beats the **** out of your stupid red neck arse.

Argyll would probably get his head blown off if he tried.

The USA is not like the UK where only the military, the police, and the Yardie gangs have guns.

I clicked on that link to the Bloody Sunday massacre and I gotta wonder if Argyll is old enough to have been there.

[Sixgun Symphony]

It is not I who suffers from Islamaphobia,it is you?

Read it again, Tommy wrote Islamophillia, not Islamophobia.

BTW, where you there at Bloody Sunday? WTF was that about?

[Argyll]

Man, I hope a Para comes to your house and beats the **** out of your stupid red neck arse.

Argyll would probably get his head blown off if he tried.

I was never a Para,but seeing as you think you'd get me before I get you,and you knowing nothing of my Military back ground I'd say you could end up dead before I even opened your front door ;),it also sounds like a veiled threat to me too ;)

The USA is not like the UK where only the military, the police, and the Yardie gangs have guns.

Thank God for that

I clicked on that link to the Bloody Sunday massacre and I gotta wonder if Argyll is old enough to have been there.

Correct I wasn't old enough to be be there during Bloody Sunday,funny though I don't recall ever having said I was,but I was there from 1980-82 when all the PIRA hungerstrikers died,I was also back there in 1986,I was also on another Operational TOD in the Falklands in 87

[Argyll]

It is not I who suffers from Islamaphobia,it is you?

Read it again, Tommy wrote Islamophillia, not Islamophobia.

you read it again,I know what I wrote,and meant what I wrote

BTW, where you there at Bloody Sunday? WTF was that about?

I have no idea why Bloody Sunday was brought up,ask him..oh sorry you cant!

[Sixgun Symphony]

Nicely put there USA 320,seems a lot of folks forget that terrorism is not just an Islamic problem,it is a worldly problem,almost ever country in the World has some faction who would oppose it by means of using terror as a weapon.

Terrorism is a tactic of war and there are wars all over the world. Both governments and insurgents use terrorism. Saddam Hussien and his Feydayeen are a classic example of a terrorist government.

It is clear that the terrorism of the Islamic religious fanatics emanates from a resurgent Islam.

[Sixgun Symphony]

It is not I who suffers from Islamaphobia,it is you?

Read it again, Tommy wrote Islamophillia, not Islamophobia.

you read it again,I know what I wrote,and meant what I wrote

BTW, where you there at Bloody Sunday? WTF was that about?

I have no idea why Bloody Sunday was brought up,ask him..oh sorry you cant!

You need to break out the dictionary to understand the difference between phillia, meaning love from phobia, meaning fear. You missed the subtlery there.

I can see clearly why Tommy brought up Bloody Sunday, the Paras were the terrorists as they opened fire into the peaceful demonstrators. I checked that link and then did some guick research. That English-Irish war has been going on for eight hundred years.

[Skaman]

I didn’t know you were in the Falklands Argyll? Care to share on those experiences? By chance did you see any of the images I posted regarding that conflict?


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8165&highlight=falklands

[Argyll]

According to the Para's they stated at the time they came underfire from Snipers within the crowds,as I was not there I cannot comment as to the actions of the Para's that day....to label the Para's terrorists is the same as labelling the US actions against Iraqi civilians in Fallujah terrorism as well,as they were peace full people as well were they not,and also the US Army reported that they too came under fire from the crowd.
As neither you nor I were there to pass judgement on the actions taken by both sets of troops that day.
Both incidents were almost Parallel in the actions taken these days.
Would you then admit that the actions of the US troops in Falluja were the action of terrorists?

AS you know seem to have a thorugh knowledge of the actions of the PIRA,the INLA and the OIRA,I am wondering if you view them as terrorists or not?

[Hydro]

Argyll mentions he was in the Falklands in '87, the actual conflict was in 1982 :) There's always some form of British military presence in the Falklands.

[Argyll]

Argyll mentions he was in the Falklands in '87, the actual conflict was in 1982 :) There's always some form of British military presence in the Falklands at any time...
Correct,it was still classed as an Operational TOD,where live ammo was carried on Patrol,we were the last full resident Battalion there in 87,there after it was a Company strength depolyment.

Six Gun I was in Cyprus when the Marines barracks was targeted by suicide bombers,and I was in the Hospital at Akrotiri at the time,and assisted with the MEDEVAC's coming in,it was all hands to the pumps,the site will remain with me forever,Refrigetor units for Rations were turned into makeshift morgues.

[Skaman]

Argyll mentions he was in the Falklands in '87, the actual conflict was in 1982 :) There's always some form of British military presence in the Falklands.

Ya, I picked up on that as well, I was wondering what he was doing there. Just curious.

[Trident-za]

Apparently, Argyll, your (and Royal's) military experience doesn't count. Two reasons.... you guys are not part of the KKK, and.... you weren't featured in that documentary Sixgun watched on the Bosnia situation . :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Sixgun Symphony]

Would you then admit that the actions of the US troops in Falluja were the action of terrorists?

No, because I know that the US troops came under fire from the crowd


AS you know seem to have a thorugh knowledge of the actions of the PIRA,the INLA and the OIRA,I am wondering if you view them as terrorists or not?

So many factions... I am sure that most of those organizations are terrorists. But I also want to avoid the trap of a big army calling the little army 'terrorists'. So I try to keep an open mind about it until I have more facts.

[Argyll]

Would you then admit that the actions of the US troops in Falluja were the action of terrorists?

No, because I know that the US troops came under fire from the crowd
How ?becuase you were there,or because they said so?

AS you know seem to have a thorugh knowledge of the actions of the PIRA,the INLA and the OIRA,I am wondering if you view them as terrorists or not?

So many factions... I am sure that most of them are terrorists. But I also want to avoid the trap of a big army calling the little army 'terrorists'. So I try to keep an open mind about it until I have more facts.

All 3 listed carried out acts of terrorism against CIVILIAN targets,both in NI and Mainland Britain,amd also in Germany as well.

Look up the Omagh bombing
Look up Guildford
Look up Warrington
Look up canary Wharf

[Sixgun Symphony]

Would you then admit that the actions of the US troops in Falluja were the action of terrorists?

No, because I know that the US troops came under fire from the crowd
How ?becuase you were there,or because they said so?

Because I know our troops and I trust them when they say so.

AS you know seem to have a thorugh knowledge of the actions of the PIRA,the INLA and the OIRA,I am wondering if you view them as terrorists or not?

So many factions... I am sure that most of them are terrorists. But I also want to avoid the trap of a big army calling the little army 'terrorists'. So I try to keep an open mind about it until I have more facts.

All 3 listed carried out acts of terrorism against CIVILIAN targets,both in NI and Mainland Britain,amd also in Germany as well.

Look up the Omagh bombing
Look up Guildford
Look up Warrington
Look up canary Wharf

Will do

[Argyll]

Would you then admit that the actions of the US troops in Falluja were the action of terrorists?

No, because I know that the US troops came under fire from the crowd
How ?becuase you were there,or because they said so?

Because I know our troops and I trust them when they say so.

Oh really and yet when we do the same it's called terrorism,Soldiers make mistakes buddy,nobody is perfect but I find it ironic that you chose to believe your troops,but if I was to chose to believe the words of the Para's that would be wrong would it?

AS you know seem to have a thorugh knowledge of the actions of the PIRA,the INLA and the OIRA,I am wondering if you view them as terrorists or not?

So many factions... I am sure that most of them are terrorists. But I also want to avoid the trap of a big army calling the little army 'terrorists'. So I try to keep an open mind about it until I have more facts.

All 3 listed carried out acts of terrorism against CIVILIAN targets,both in NI and Mainland Britain,amd also in Germany as well.

Look up the Omagh bombing
Look up Guildford
Look up Warrington
Look up canary Wharf

Will do

Some interesting facts if you are genuinley interested

[Sixgun Symphony]

Oh really and yet when we do the same it's called terrorism,Soldiers make mistakes buddy,nobody is perfect but I find it ironic that you chose to believe your troops,but if I was to chose to believe the words of the Para's that would be wrong would it?

I could not be sure that you were not one of the paras there. I visited a few Irish websites to get both sides of the story and came away viewing these troubles as being the latest round in a very old war with alot of cruelties committed by both sides.

One thing, I visited that IRA website that Tommy posted and it seems to me that the marxists are riding 'piggy back' on a nationalist cause. How long has the IRA been dominated by socialists?


Some interesting facts if you are genuinley interested

I am very interested in learnihng more.

[Argyll]

Oh really and yet when we do the same it's called terrorism,Soldiers make mistakes buddy,nobody is perfect but I find it ironic that you chose to believe your troops,but if I was to chose to believe the words of the Para's that would be wrong would it?

I could not be sure that you were not one of the paras there. I visited a few Irish websites to get both sides of the story and came away viewing these troubles as being the latest round in a very old war with alot of cruelties committed by both sides.

Would it have made any difference if I was one of the Para's?My word of being there against someones who wasn't?

One thing, I visited that IRA website that Tommy posted and it seems to me that the marxists are riding 'piggy back' on a nationalist cause. How long has the IRA been dominated by socialists?

The IRA are strictly republican,the INLA are the nationalists,the INLA were a splinter group off the PIRA,and the OIRA are another splinter group.
They were all against the British in NI.and in the mainland UK as well


Some interesting facts if you are genuinley interested

I am very interested in learnihng more.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Your word? I don't know you very well.

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.

I don't know much about the INLA. Are these the Blueshirts? I know that Ireland sent in troops to help Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

[cut]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.


:roll: you are proof that nationalists aren't socialist

[Sixgun Symphony]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.


:roll: you are proof that nationalists aren't socialist

I should have said Marxists. Marxism is international socialism.

Now the fascists were "national socialists", virulantly anti-marxist. They claimed to be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism.

There are all kinds of socialists, president Franklyn D. Roosevelt was a socialist.

[Argyll]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.

Provisional Irish Republican Army aka Provo's want to see ALL of Ireland become one country,just like the Republic of Ireland(Eire).
This is where US/UK differences over the term republic and republican are quite different from each other,but share the same term
I don't know much about the INLA. Are these the Blueshirts? I know that Ireland sent in troops to help Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

The INLA are also Republicans but have more Nationalsitic views and goals,but their aim is one and the same ,to have a United Ireland under the Republican banner!

[Red]

hey argyll,i loved your ghost recon mods especially the M4 mods but can i just say that the next mod u release please include pistols.Love the picture of your family,long time since i have been to london,hope to visit in march.Normally reside in the south east that would be in lewisham,kent.HAve a nice day

[Sixgun Symphony]

The INLA are also Republicans but have more Nationalsitic views and goals,but their aim is one and the same ,to have a United Ireland under the Republican banner!

Looking at the royals, I can't comprehend why Britain is still a monarchy. Even if the queen is just a figurehead, it is something that belongs to medieval times.

[cut]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.


:roll: you are proof that nationalists aren't socialist

I should have said Marxists. Marxism is international socialism.

Now the fascists were "national socialists", virulantly anti-marxist. They claimed to be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism.

There are all kinds of socialists, president Franklyn D. Roosevelt was a socialist.

those repeatedly reffered to as neo-fascist in europe, such as Le Pen, Haider, the BNP etc.. are all extreme RIGHT-wing.

What do you think about Le Pen and his Front Nationale party?

[Argyll]

The INLA are also Republicans but have more Nationalsitic views and goals,but their aim is one and the same ,to have a United Ireland under the Republican banner!

Looking at the royals, I can't comprehend why Britain is still a monarchy. Even if the queen is just a figurehead, it is something that belongs to medieval times.

Yep and half of the UK also ask the same question
Me I can take them or leave them they do sod all for me apart from Zara Phillips ;)

[Sixgun Symphony]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.


:roll: you are proof that nationalists aren't socialist

I should have said Marxists. Marxism is international socialism.

Now the fascists were "national socialists", virulantly anti-marxist. They claimed to be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism.

There are all kinds of socialists, president Franklyn D. Roosevelt was a socialist.

those repeatedly reffered to as neo-fascist in europe, such as Le Pen, Haider, the BNP etc.. are all extreme RIGHT-wing.

What do you think about Le Pen and his Front Nationale party?


They are nationalists, but they also have to be supporters of big government socialism to be fascists.

Nationalism + Socialism = Fascism

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yep and half of the UK also ask the same question
Me I can take them or leave them they do sod all for me apart from Zara Phillips ;)

I am thinking the only advantage is that they bring in tourist dollars to the economy over there.

Yet the scandals! I think that revenue might not be what it was.

[cut]

The USA is a republic, it is not anything like the republicanism of the PIRA. The PIRA would have to be socialist republic.


:roll: you are proof that nationalists aren't socialist

I should have said Marxists. Marxism is international socialism.

Now the fascists were "national socialists", virulantly anti-marxist. They claimed to be a 'third way' between capitalism and communism.

There are all kinds of socialists, president Franklyn D. Roosevelt was a socialist.

those repeatedly reffered to as neo-fascist in europe, such as Le Pen, Haider, the BNP etc.. are all extreme RIGHT-wing.

What do you think about Le Pen and his Front Nationale party?


They are nationalists, but they also have to be supporters of big government socialism to be fascists.

Nationalism + Socialism = Fascism

a well CNN and all the others must be dumbasses then cause they don't support the gvnt and yet they get called fascist

[Sixgun Symphony]

Much of the liberal media is for big government socialism. They want to elect democrats into office who will expand the size and power of big government.

[cut]

Probably for their socialistic leanings.

what socialistic leanings? the front nationale has decended from a monarchist party from 200 years ago that's as far from the left as it gets.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I said that they are nationalists, but would also have to have socialistic leanings to be fascist.

nationalism + socialism = fascism

[cut]

regardless that makes a nationalist then

[basket of soft kittens]

well their are not as many flaming cry-me-a-river liberals in america as you think but their could be is the problem. most of america (not just the coasts) are more conservative .but the worst liberals are the ones in power is the trouble i.e. california senator barbara boxer for tend to spread their 1960's hippie propaganda through the media and for most people the media is theri only outlet to the rest of the nation so they tend to side with the liberal media :-*$

[martinexsquaddie]

rofl rofl rofl
rupert murdoch a bleeding heart liberal rofl rofl

[dez000]

Yes, not all Europe are hypocrist as France and Belgium. Italy (the leaders of the anti-terrorist line in Europe), Holand (The Netherlands) and Denmark have seen the light and understood that Europe must aid to the international war against terror (led by the USA and Israel) rather than remain neutral and function as a terrorist hideout.

How dare you call Belgium hypocrits and a terrorist hideout while Belgian soldiers are in Afghanistan... It's not because we opposed the war in Iraq that we support terrorism! Or even let terrorists live in our country!

Please before you post ignorant posts like that you should think twice! :fork:

Btw: I hardly think that Israel leads the war against terror... It is true Isreal is one of the major country's fighting terrorism... But only in Palestine, not in the rest of the world...

[California Joe]

Jesus H. Christ would someone please go over to SS's house and slap his mom. Then drag him out of 8th grade gym class, cause he's not going to pass the rope climb anyway and give him the TriggerPuller version of an attitude adjustment. Thanks, the rest of the US.

[TriggerPuller]

I try to stay out of this stuff but if you need me to kick someones ass or give someone an attitude adjustment Iam here for ya bro!!

TP

[Sixgun Symphony]

Jesus H. Christ would someone please go over to SS's house and slap his mom. Then drag him out of 8th grade gym class, cause he's not going to pass the rope climb anyway and give him the TriggerPuller version of an attitude adjustment. Thanks, the rest of the US.

In your dreams.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I try to stay out of this stuff but if you need me to kick someones ass or give someone an attitude adjustment Iam here for ya bro!!

TP

Don't flatter yourself.

[Sixgun Symphony]

How dare you call Belgium hypocrits and a terrorist hideout while Belgian soldiers are in Afghanistan... It's not because we opposed the war in Iraq that we support terrorism! Or even let terrorists live in our country!

Please before you post ignorant posts like that you should think twice! :fork:

Btw: I hardly think that Israel leads the war against terror... It is true Isreal is one of the major country's fighting terrorism... But only in Palestine, not in the rest of the world...

Saddam Hussien is a terrorist. So why are you against the toppling of a terrorist regime in Iraq?

[Roger Rabbit]

TriggerPuller wrote:
I try to stay out of this stuff but if you need me to kick someones ass or give someone an attitude adjustment Iam here for ya bro!!

TP


Don't flatter yourself.

*admires the quiet before the storm.*
Serious Sixgun, before you start making sly comments about people on this board you ought to check out their background or previous post.

People arent always against the toppling of Saddamn, that was a good thing. But the reasons for the war, the plans or lack of plans for the after war stratergy are starting to offend more people.

[dez000]

How dare you call Belgium hypocrits and a terrorist hideout while Belgian soldiers are in Afghanistan... It's not because we opposed the war in Iraq that we support terrorism! Or even let terrorists live in our country!

Please before you post ignorant posts like that you should think twice! :fork:

Btw: I hardly think that Israel leads the war against terror... It is true Isreal is one of the major country's fighting terrorism... But only in Palestine, not in the rest of the world...

Saddam Hussien is a terrorist. So why are you against the toppling of a terrorist regime in Iraq?

Who ever said we were against bringing down Saddam, we just didn't support the way the Coalition wanted to do it...

[Sixgun Symphony]

Who ever said we were against bringing down Saddam, we just didn't support the way the Coalition wanted to do it...

The UN sanctions had twelve years to work. If things were allowed to continue, then we would be waiting for Saddam to die of old age for that regime change.

[hank]

I try to stay out of this stuff but if you need me to kick someones ass or give someone an attitude adjustment Iam here for ya bro!!

TP

"Don't flatter yourself." - he's talkin' about you TP!

He called ya' out. I've seen much less than this get trashed. Let 'im have it.

hank

[WARPIG]

TriggerPuller wrote:
I try to stay out of this stuff but if you need me to kick someones ass or give someone an attitude adjustment Iam here for ya bro!!

TP


Don't flatter yourself.

*admires the quiet before the storm.*
Serious Sixgun, before you start making sly comments about people on this board you ought to check out their background or previous post.

People arent always against the toppling of Saddamn, that was a good thing. But the reasons for the war, the plans or lack of plans for the after war stratergy are starting to offend more people.
Who does it offend? Don't you think that the people in harm's way ought to be the ones who reserve the right to be offended or complain?

It doesn't matter how the war went.. how it started, or how well it was planned. People like to complain and criticize. Truth is.. the threats in the middle east are there. It is dirty work. No matter who gets involved, their hands are going to be dirty too(especially in Iraq.) The truth is, while everyone is criticizing the US.. they are relieved that someone decided to take the job. Intel was bad... ok. Leadership mislead us? .. whatever.. Didn't handle it well? .. your opinion. Cost too many lives? Our price to pay. Read my sig... have an herbal tea.. a bubblebath with lavender and candles.. and have a good cry. They US is happy to take the blame.

[RomanS]

WOW

Holly mother of ****.

I must say -
My American brothers, After reading this. I am not just back, but also back with full artillery and ICBMs.

Notice though - Not a single Russian has posted in this thread yet. Yet our country is mentioned by all of the participants of this argument here.
America, Israel, Europe.

And of course not in the positive way.

Oh well, i'll put that aside

Some of you sick bastards from Europe need to go and throw yourselves off the windows. If you are not that high, you will live.
But that impact should give you a nice freakin hit on the head. So that your brain can CTRL ALT Delete in your scull.

What the flying fukk are you saying here?

That USA diserved the attacks on their innocent people by the *** sucking ben laden???????

To me, after I put all your opinions together - thats exactly what it translates into.

What ben laden did , you mustomato compare to Tomahawks launched at terrorist camps?

HOLLY **** DUDE!

You don't deserve to breath the air on this planet, if your thoughts are in the same room with ben ladens.

You comparing people that died in World Trade Center, and in the planes (the civilians), to the terrorist mudjaheds that USA killed before the tragedy?

If your daughter, son, wife, husband, mother, father, brother, sister was there and was killed in the ruins of Twin Towers, what would you be saying now - you pathetic swedish balls eating wanabe soldier.

Oh I know what you would be saying -

So what if my daughter died there. Its still Americans fault.

Sorry guys for harsh language, but this is beyond now.

I wanted to take a break away from this board, but after I read this ... fuk this ****, I'm back, and gonna fight till the end with you terrorist loving assholes.

[ibstolidude]

I wanted to take a break away from this board, but after I read this ... fuk this ****, I'm back, and gonna fight till the end with you terrorist loving assholes.
I love the subtleness of the Slavic people.

Welcome back P.

[5jumpchump]

Gosh , it sure is a pleasure to read thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , thread after thread , of constant bickering and bitching . Nice jog pufftards , keep it up :D

[Luxembourger]

Argyll wrote :
Don't you like your own country Luxembourger?

Of course I like my country and europe ,,but what is wrong if do like another country too like the US?

What made you think that I don t love my country?

[Argyll]

Nothing,I was just curious
there are plenty of European Countries who support the US,but I hate it when they band Europe as 1,there are 15 countries within the EU,less than 30% of them dislike the US!

[spectre5]

Blame Canada. "Tei äär teh supppporters oof terrööörism"

No just kidding, idiotic thread.

t.
Antti Korpela

[Haiw]

Nothing,I was just curious
there are plenty of European Countries who support the US,but I hate it when they band Europe as 1,there are 15 countries within the EU,less than 30% of them dislike the US!
That's just the governments ;)