Is it so wrong!!!!!!!!!!

[Cpl Stumps]

I have read some posts where people have complained that "civvies" or vets are digging to deep, trying to find out information about "black" units. Some of the criticism is that they are using the information to go play war (airsoft).
Before the age of 18 I owned 6 military books, since then I have continued to increase my library to about 25 (there just aren't that many good books out there). At 17 I put my money where my mouth was and joined the Marines. I served honorably for four years. I was a pogue, I've never claimed to be anything but a pogue. While 2/7 came marching out of the "stumps" desert at 8 am after humping for the better part of the morning I was just getting to work to do my 8 to 5 office job. I've never claimed an award, a battle or a kill.
That being said I am an avid history buff who still loves the military. So I find it hard to understand when I or others that share the passion for the military are critized for it. Where is the difference between researching the uniforms and gear of a Civil War soldier or WWII soldier for reenactment and doing the same with the current military. Isn't better to have a passion for the military and honor and acknowledge all that serve but especially those that go into harms way.
Someone said in another post that they do reenactments to teach others about the soldiers of the past. Well I make 12 inch dioramas, I want them to be as authentic as possible and by doing so I teach those around me about the present. When I first met my future wife she had no clue about the military. She balked at my long talks about honor and integrity. But I persisted to teach her about what makes our military great. Just the other day her brother said that serving in the military was a waste of time. My wife jumped all over him, saying that to give of yourself for four years or more is an honorable thing to do. There was more to the conversation...but doesn't my love of the military in some way teach those around me about the brave men and women that serve today.
So I don't see a problem with finding facts out about units. It's not like we're releasing national secrets over the internet that any informed computer user can't find for themselves. And one final thing, like I said, I have never claimed to be anything but a pogue...but I have met people who have been in combat...I have learned a way to tell the liars from those that have been in it. The liars boast about kills and crap, the real ones either never talk about it or do so only after they have been your friend for a number of years. Some don't even talk about til after a night of hard drinking when at 0 dark thirty they reveal some of their pain to you. Those that are real have remained my friends those that boast can go B.S. someone else cause I'm not havin' it.

Just my 2 cents

Semper Fi
Cpl Stumps

[WARHORSE]

OPSEC

[PSYWAR1-0]

Yes, Im the guilty party. I attempted to not paint everyone with the same brush. My questioning of motivations was not aimed towards the military historian, the museum pro, other vets or even people like you who are a combination of the above and use the info gathered here for your art. It was a poke at people who play militry vid games, who play airsoft , who get SOF type gear and pose in front of the mirror at home.

Reenacting involves public interaction and education of life, times and practices of the past. Airsoft is a private game played by folks who dress up like they are staring in BHD, wearing the uniforms and insignia of the people who are right now, today doing it for real in far off parts of the world. In my mind that is a very big difference.

Yes I have OPSEC concerns, when you are talking about what is going on now, instead of what happend in the past there is more of a chance that info that should not be known will make it out into the open. A reminder now and then is more than appropriate!

If my comments made you angry, FIDO, its only the internet.

[Trigger]

Amen Cpl. Stumps.

Your 2 cents goes a long way!

[Cpl Stumps]

Psywar and all other members,

Let me clarify, I'm not angry but I would rather see some sixteen year old kid come to this site, read about Delta, SAS, CIA SAD or USMC etc and run out and buy the gear and an airsoft and go out and play where he'll run into Vets like myself who will express their feelings about the military (hopefully good feelings) and make that kid go "Geez, I want to do more with my life then spit into a Big Mac as I work for $6.50 an hour!" I find this far better than that same 16 year old going down to the local airport and spitting on some Marine who just came back from a combat zone. As far as OPSEC I have sent numerous e-mails to every news agency I could telling them to watch it...but until you get rid of every news reporter that drives in a Toyota 4x4 and pays an interpreter to give him clues as to where SF personnel are operating (Geraldo Rivera) and censor every retired general that goes on CNN with a map and video illustrator and says "Well Connie if I was in charge I would do this......." then your not going to control everything. I have a hard time believing that dedicated SF guys involved in combat are stopping by this site to drop hints as to who their going to nail next. If those guys on that other post saw some report about an air unit and through their efforts was able to pull up more information through the internet then don't think some AQ can do the same. I mean Delta has been denied for years yet you go to B&N and there's about 10 seperate books on the unit. So how are we breaking OPSEC if the stuff is already out there on the web for us to find. Again I'm not attacking you and I'm not angry about what you said I'm just saying that maybe people being appreciative and emulating these honorable men is something good not bad, they say that imitation is the ultimate form of flattery. I understand your feeling that people are wearing emblems of units that they haven't earned, I would be upset to see someone wear an EGA that they haven't earned, but only if they pretend they have earned it. I'm just offering another side, not a right/wrong side but another side so don't take offense of my opinion and I won't take offense at yours.

My 3 cents (I'm getting poor here)

Semper Fi
Cpl Stumps

[hood]

OpSec is always a touchy subject, because according to the definition it's designed to be extremely vague. It basically says "Anything that can be used by the enemy shouldn't be talked about." It takes about 3 seconds to realize that it's an absurd statement, because most Al Qaeda who've been interviewed, and the information that's been found after they've been defeated, has come from the government's own websites and publications.

When I hosted the AC-130 gunship video a while back on here, I got a lot of flak from people saying it was classified. It turns out that they were wrong seeing as it was broadcast on Fox News to millions of people. After a particular person who kept trying contact me through various methods, including calling people I know, I posted the following which I still hold to:

"Concerning all this Op Sec stuff, I have yet to run across anything that can't be found on our own government's websites, or any number of standard reference websites. I'd suggest taking this matter up with the various .mil, .gov, the Discovery Channel, The Learning Channel, and your local public libary. If you can get them to censor their information on the subject, then I'll react in kind. Talking about the CIA or Delta force, and sharing information that's available every Tuesday and Thursday night on DSC is NOT considered a taboo subject. If you find something in particular that falls outside of this type of information, please feel free to post about it and I'll act on it when it's justified."

Most people who complain about OpSec are wannabe's who want to feel important because they know something that most other people don't. They feel that if they know it, they're better than the other people on here. Knowledge is power I suppose, since it's all ultimately public for people who dig enough, it's a false power.

[Trigger]

Hey PSYWAR (more like pseudowar) and other internet police:

if you're really worried about OPSEC why don't you try shutting down sites like globalsecurity.org and the thousand or so mirror sites. They list just about all the info the opposition might use against us.

enjoy.



Don't go away mad...just go away. - Stitch Jones

[warchild1/27scout]

cpl. that was well said.anything that educates young people and uninformed people about the sacrifices of our veterans and our country has to be good.these days all young people hear is how hollywood stars are embarrassed to be americans and they think thats cool.i think the most dangerous of these people are in our education system where our young people with there impressionable minds are being taught that our country is horrible and we should trust saddam hussien and not george bush.!!!

[100%Marine]

Hey Pogue--Semper Fi for the guts to try.

[snake6264]

OPSEC is BS on the web
I'm with Hood i've never read or seen anything posted on the web
that you could not find on a military site

Even if the Iraqi's had the freakin war plans I don't think it would make one hours diffenece in the long run

As long as we are not posting locations of troops and the like I THink all else is fair game

My 2 cents
not worth a whole lot
Snake6264

[Chops]

Hear hear Snake, Hood and others. Very succinctly put. Chops obviously agrees 100%.

Now to change topics- I was intrigued to learn the Rangers and SF dropped the SR25. Any more detail on why? Reliability issues solely?

Rgds

Chops

[hood]

Well, my 3rd SF unit friend, James Cutter said that while he's been in Khost Afghanistan, along with his other 3rd, 7th, and 11th SF friends who are there until next week when the big operation on hill 393 gets under way, they're not using the sr25 anymore because General Robert Peterson who's with them in the tent at the front of the base didn't like how they functioned. He told him that if anyone were to shoot a rocket in that part of the base, he and his command staff would be toast and he wouldn't want the sr25 to defend himself because it keeps jamming.

[Chops]

Ha ha!! Very good! :lol:

Rgds

Chops

[Minjin]

Watch out for OPSEC, Hood!! rofl

Now, as far as OPSEC and airsoft (or other MilSim games) go, I fail to see how researching unit badges/uniforms/public knowledge is in any way a threat to Operational Security. I am with Cpl Stumps. Educate.

[hood]

warhorse apparently feels that this thread violates opsec and asked that i turn off his account, which I did. Let this all be a lesson to you. :hug:

[Merik]

Stumps,you have taken all my thoughts on this *touchy* subject and put them into words that I am not able to do.Thank you for making this matter as clear as it could be and lets hope other people will learn that it is alot more fun to do the real deal after hearing about the heroes that make us who we are today.

[Piccolo]

Great post, thanks Cpl Stumps. While I do play military/CT themed video games, and interested in airsoft/gear, I Am going to join up. Infact this is what got me interested in the Military in the first place. Learning about the various units and workins of the Military and our SOF forces really inspired me to do something; last summer I was 50 pounds heavier, a typical geek type I suppose. Now, I feel much better (About myself, and just in-general); am in pretty good shape (5'8"/155Lbs), and I continue to do my PT untill I am of age to join and go for it. The tremendous dedication these men have and the selfless service they perform is simply outstanding. I realize we all sleep in peace at night because they are at watch.

[Trigger]

Way to go Piccolo!
woot

[Whisper]

Hey Piccolo, Rangers lead the way! Sleep tight bro..

[GearGod]

What bothers me is why they allow the public to read Army Field Manuals: http://www.adtdl.army.mil Also, why is some military gear and equipment available to civilians? Yes, I do appreciate the fact that its readily available for the Military Simulations(Airsoft) Fans/Players, but I think it would only make it easier for terrorists/mercenaries/militias to be created. And think about this: If current-military personell cant train nonmilitary personell i.e. airsofters, why do they have manuals available to the public?

[Apogee]

Adam, You'll notice that only certain FMs are available to the public. Yeah, 7-8 is available, but honestly just reading that doesn't tell you a great deal. Much of the doctrine is specific to American equipment, so that further lessens the value of the information. The higher level FMs and TMs are available on the web as well, but you have to request and recieve a user name and password from PERSCOM. Those manuels have a disclaimer on them that they are not intended for public release in order to protect the information in them.

[hood]

I started looking at and reading martial arts instructional books and magazines when I was 15. I had exhausted what the library and local book store had within 6 months. After more than 10 years of being in the martial arts at this point, I can honestly say that those books' value is almost nothing. They give you an idea of what to expect, but only real training can give you true knowledge with this stuff. As far as these various places having military equipment, when was the last time you saw these Al Qaeda people wearing any of this stuff? They're all in traditional muslim robes. They don't care about this stuff.