Chechnya veterans serve as IDF snipers [Archive]

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Kingpin

09-22-2003, 06:49 AM

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

The IDF has recently begun stationing new immigrant
soldiers, veterans of the Russian army's fighting
in Chechnya, as snipers in the territories.

The snipers have been organized
into a unit known as the
"immigration (aliyah) brigade."
Membership in this unit, which
came into being after the
outbreak of the intifada, is
made up mainly of relatively
older immigrants, aged 40 or
older, who were not eligible
for reserve duty because of
their age. Nevertheless, they

volunteered to serve on security details in the
settlements.

The members of the unit had requested that they
be allowed to contribute the skills they
learned as sharpshooters during the fighting in
Chechnya between the Russian army and Chechnyan
separatists. So the IDF began stationing some
of them in its reserve units in the
territories. Immigrants with special
sharpshooter skills then began to assist the
army in overcoming weak points in various
locations in the territories.

A senior security official told Haaretz that
some of the immigrants are much more highly
trained and experienced as sharpshooters than
is the norm in the IDF. While the IDF conducts
a five-week snipers' course, the Russian army
trains its sharpshooters for about a year in
infantry units.

The official also said that the professional
experience gained by the immigrants in Chechnya
had been very helpful to the IDF in the
fighting in the territories. He noted that
local commanders in units where the
immigrant-snipers have been stationed pressure
their superiors to keep them on duty for
extended periods of time.

Over the last decade, the IDF has changed and
significantly improved its method of sniper
training. A large number of the armed
Palestinians that have been injured during
violent incidents in the territories over the
past three years have been shot by IDF snipers.
The same was true of incidents involving the
Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon during the years
prior to the withdrawal of the IDF in May
2000.

New immigrants from the FSU also make up a
significant number of the sharpshooters in the
ranks of the regular army. The number of
sharpshooters among the new immigrants is
greater than their relative numbers in other
combat units (where they make up approximately
one-fourth of all combat soldiers).

IDF officers claim that the new immigrant
soldiers usually have more patience than their
native-born Israeli counterparts, with patience
an important characteristic required of
snipers. The officers say that the mew
immigrants also stand out in terms of their
technological know-how and skills, which is one
of the important requirements for entry into a
sharpshooters' training course.

ArmoredDov_D9

09-22-2003, 07:02 AM

Good form. We should applause to the Olim (immegrants) who came to Israel from Russia and insist on contributing to the IDF from their great experience, time, skills and valor.

I think after they'll reach the age that they cannot serve anymore as combatants they should be placed as instructors in the IDF sniper school to train the next generation of sniper.

Very well done! Kol Ha-Kavod La-em!

Argyll

09-22-2003, 11:39 AM

Can someone tell me the difference in this between Soviet Mercenaries,and the influx of Foreign Nationals into Iraq?
Apart from the good versus bad thing?I am in no way supporting the actions of the terrorist,but here we have a situation where both Parties believe they are fighting for a cause,I think this was a pretty stupid thing to decalare,as it will once again look from the Muslim point of View that the West just wants them erradicated,just sounds like Angola all over again!

ArmoredDov_D9

09-22-2003, 11:59 AM

They're not Soviet merceneries. Their are Jewish soldiers who immegrated (ALU = ascended) to Israel and wanted to help by contributing from their military experience.

In Israel, every citizen must serve in the army for a period of 3 years (woman has to serve only 2 years) and even Olim (immegrants) have to do some military service. Further more, in Israel every citizen can volunteer willingly to serve in the army and even volunteer to do extra reserves duty (in Operation Defensive Shield more reservist arived to serve than the number of reservist been called).

They have wanted to volunteer to serve in the army and aid defending Israel against terror. They don't get special extra money and they're not signed on special contract. They are treated like every other soldier who serve as a regular (KEVA, means - full time soldier on payrole).

And yes, it also that they're good and Arab terrorist are bad.

Argyll

09-22-2003, 01:01 PM

Are you telling me that these are Soviet Jews,who have decided to come home,and join in the war against the Terror Groups?
If they are ,what you are telling us that they had a better quality of life,inside the old Soviet Union than what they would've had they returned to Israel prior to Serving the Russian Army?That the Russian Army pay is much better than that of the IDF?
Call them what you want,but a Foreigner who joins another countries Army other than his own is considered a Mercenary,especially to fight in any kind of war.There were many British "Immigrants " then who took up arms in places like Angola,The Belgian Congo,Bosnia Herzegovina,oddly enough on both sides Serbian and Croatian.
So what you are saying also is that anybody who "immigrates" to Israel is then eligable to join the IDF?
Call them what you will,many will just call them Mercenaries!!!

Just for your info,these would be the same Russians who commited some pretty severe atrocities in Chechnya then?Like the Razing of Grozny?and many more,and before you counter this I know that the Chechens were just as bad,but the same soldiers,who tried this in Afghanistan,also did the same in Chechnya,they picked up arms against the Muslim led Mujihadeen..........how ironic is that!!?

ArmoredDov_D9

09-22-2003, 01:26 PM

Are you telling me that these are Soviet Jews,who have decided to come home,and join in the war against the Terror Groups?

Yes.

If they are ,what you are telling us that they had a better quality of life,inside the old Soviet Union than what they would've had they returned to Israel prior to Serving the Russian Army?That the Russian Army pay is much better than that of the IDF?

I never said such things. The quality of life in Israel is much higher than the former USSR. The gates of Russia were massivly opened only after the fall of the USSR and most of the Russians Jews came to Israel during the 1990's. Do you know that in Israel there are about million Jews who came from Russia and the former Soviet Republics?

Call them what you want,but a Foreigner who joins another countries Army other than his own is considered a Mercenary,especially to fight in any kind of war.There were many British "Immigrants " then who took up arms in places like Angola,The Belgian Congo,Bosnia Herzegovina,oddly enough on both sides Serbian and Croatian.

They're not a foreigner. They have Israeli citizenship. They're Jewish. They are Israelis although they weren't born here.

So what you are saying also is that anybody who "immigrates" to Israel is then eligable to join the IDF?
Call them what you will,many will just call them Mercenaries!!!

Yes. Every Jew who immigrates to Israel is eligable and even must serve in the army a mandatory peroid.

ust for your info,these would be the same Russians who commited some pretty severe atrocities in Chechnya then?Like the Razing of Grozny?and many more,and before you counter this I know that the Chechens were just as bad,but the same soldiers,who tried this in Afghanistan,also did the same in Chechnya,they picked up arms against the Muslim led Mujihadeen..........how ironic is that!!?

The Russian army did nasty thing there. However, there is no evidence that these Jews soldiers commited atrocities and therefore they are innocent unless proven otherwise.

Argyll

09-22-2003, 02:02 PM

Were they conscripted into the Russian Army then or volunteered?
If they were born in Russia,how can they be Israeli citizens,that status would only be granted upon arrival in Israel surely,if this is the case then coming forward to volunteer to become Israeli's makes them more mercenary!.
I can't believe living in Russia,but having Israeli citizenship,they did not return to their birthrights sooner.............it does not add up at all?
A country that is in economical turmoil,and its Military a shambles,compared to one of the best Milirtary Forces in the world,and a country that is pretty prosperous into the bargain........there is no logic in this whatsoever!

ArmoredDov_D9

09-22-2003, 02:14 PM

Were they conscripted into the Russian Army then or volunteered?

I don't know.

If they were born in Russia,how can they be Israeli citizens,that status would only be granted upon arrival in Israel surely,if this is the case then coming forward to volunteer to become Israeli's makes them more mercenary!.

Every Jew who comes to settle down in Israel gets Israeli citizenship. They had to wait about a year before they IDF accepted them to the army. They were eager to volunteer and they are not specialy paid for that. Hence, they are not mercenaries ("Soldiers of Fortune"). They not doing that for money. They're do it from merely AHAVAT ISRAEL ("The love for Israel").

I can't believe living in Russia,but having Israeli citizenship,they did not return to their birthrights sooner.............it does not add up at all?

The USSR didn't allow Jews to leave to Israel. Only after the USSR fell they could return to the Jewish homeland. They are living in Israel - for good. They left Russia - for good. They are Israelis - in their own rights. They are no different from the Jews who went to Israel after WW2 and helped to defend the young nation against the raging Arab armies. In many ways, they are continuing their legacy and all the Israelis are proud at them.

Argyll

09-22-2003, 03:43 PM

Considering the Soviet Union collapsed more than 10 years ago,and the births of Indepandant States such as the Baltic States,Ukraine etc,they would've had ample opportunities to leave wherever they came from,and to claim their birthrights as Jews

But this still does not make sense.........the war in Chechnya has not been going on for no more than 5 years,so why now if they themselves were Jews when they could've left for Israel much earlier?
Why did they feel obligated to Fight for Russia.........There is more to this than simple heridatory feelings,it makes no sense,if they were conscripted why not claim their birthrights then,and leave for Israel to avoid the bloody war in Chechnya,a war that conscripts do not want to fight but have no choice!!,but rather go to Israel and join the IDF and serve under it?...........a "Soldier of Fortune" does not always get paid vast sums of money,many never see anything at all,but the adrenalin rush of battle proves too strong for many veterans of war and they seek ther conflicts to apply their trade..............you said they were snipers,well this indicates to me that these guys enjoyed the killing,and that they have some perverse satisfaction at killing for killings sake,they sound very much like war Junkies,when any soldier goes through the horrors of war ,the last thing he wants to do is go through it all again,unless he has the desire to kill,where his emotions are no longer part of his soul.!

S'13

09-22-2003, 04:36 PM

Argyll wrote

you said they were snipers,well this indicates to me that these guys enjoyed the killing,and that they have some perverse satisfaction at killing for killings sake,they sound very much like war Junkies,when any soldier goes through the horrors of war ,the last thing he wants to do is go through it all again,unless he has the desire to kill,where his emotions are no longer part of his soul.!

That is a silly thing to say, how is the fact that they served as snipers indicate they enjoyed killing?! How is a sniper different from a regular foot soldier or a gunner? I am not saying there aren't any of these "war Junkies" in the military but the task the person has in the army does not tell whether he does or does not enjoy killing. In Israel we have people who fought 6 wars in there lifetime, does this mean they are war Junkies? Hell no, but if you belive in what your fighting for you will be willing to fight more then once if required.

Argyll

09-22-2003, 04:54 PM

So they believed in the Chechen conflict then?
Where thousands of young ill trained Russian conscripts were sent to a war that nobody understood,and were subsequently killed in their 1000s'
Their is a huge difference in being a sniper than it is being any other kind of soldier.............ask any qualified snipers here?
A sniper is one on one.............it is personal,he has stalked his target,observed his target,probably for days,maybe even weeks,he has very little support dependent on his mission,a spotter,not much more.
He waits and watches,for that opportunity to take the shot,without beeing seen,then make good his extraction,again without being seen.......then go out nad do it all again,it takes a very special person to be a sniper.....ask them............ask how many grunts and support troops will adjust their sights for wind and elelvation........meticulously!!.........and still hit their intended target!!!!!

S'13

09-22-2003, 05:06 PM

I agree, it takes a very special person to be a sniper. But it doesn not mean this person likes to kill, he is performing his duty... Like any other soldier. If you want to argue about the legitimacy of the Chechen war, it would be better to do so with someone of Russian nationality.

Argyll

09-22-2003, 05:08 PM

Your "Immigrants "are Russians!!!!!

S'13

09-22-2003, 05:15 PM

[quote] Your "Immigrants "are Russians!!!!![quote]

True, however I myself was born an Israeli. If you want to talk about this with an Israeli with Russian background, feel free.

Tom.G

09-22-2003, 05:30 PM

And yes, it also that they're good and Arab terrorist are bad.

That is a very intelligent remark. Where did you get it from.

citizen-k

09-22-2003, 05:45 PM

This is a story from HAARETZ - they still believe Arafat is a lovely old man we should all embrace on our way towards peace...

There are no "foreigners" corps in the IDF, nore SF soldiers who hasn't spend at least ~10 years in Israel. (unless you are a special "media" story - and no one is that stupid to use russian soldiers from chechnia as a story for the media)
ESPECIALLY if you served in other armys - then you have such a low security classification I dubt it you'll get to carry an uzi...

And yes, any Jew can simply get on a plane and get Israeli citizenship in the airport, right after landing. (In case he has all the right papers to prove his grandmother was Jewish of course.
Unlike christians and Muslims, Jews determine the religion by the mother, simply because you can't REALY be sure who your father is)

EvanL

09-22-2003, 06:19 PM

I heard that it is impossible for a christian who is an israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come?

Argyll

09-22-2003, 06:33 PM

I see 2 conflicting sides here both from Israeli forum members,so which one are we to believe in?Was there a wee raw nerve hit earlier?

Andyman

09-22-2003, 07:26 PM

Argyll I'm behind you all the way man. You bring forth some strong points. As a matter of fact I read in that book shooting under fire that some jewish soldiers from other nations actually leave to fight in Israel because they know that they will get to see some action. Probably the same thing goin on with the ruskies also. I feel some Israeli propaghanda coming on soon we better change the subject quick :petting:

IDFM203

09-22-2003, 09:32 PM

I heard that it is impossible for a christian who is an israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come? hey cnuck do yourself a favour. Go out and get your facts in order and then come back here. I mean this is not the first time that I have seen you post some bull**** “fact” that ONLY YOU have heard somewhere or read somewhere.

Yes there are christens in the idf. In fact there are even Muslims in the idf. Every Israeli citizen can be in the idf. The Arabs aren’t forced to go like the Jews but if they volunteer they can get in. The same goes for christens. Besides it being official policy and searching the official websites will tell you that, I also found this one Christian site where the author himself is a Christian that was in the idf. He writes”To summarize, every Christian is entitled to defend his life, his family and his property against evildoers. There is no Biblical reason why a Christian cannot serve in the military and defend his country against those who attack it. David Bivin, quoted earlier, is a Christian who has served in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). The IDF includes a substantial number of Christians who willingly defend Israel, which is now their chosen homeland. This is in no way contrary to our Messiah’s teaching.”

http://www.godward.org/commentary/Out%20of%20the%20Box/are_christians_called_to.htm

IDFM203

09-22-2003, 09:33 PM

Argyll I'm behind you all the way man. You bring forth some strong points. : all of his points have been discounted, the only one that is up in the air so to speak is what they were doing in cheneya and simply we don’t know what those individuals were doing there.

As a matter of fact I read in that book shooting under fire that some jewish soldiers from other nations actually leave to fight in Israel because they know that they will get to see some action. wow!! How typical. I mean you are just like you friend who just always happens to have heard some obscure source or where you have just happened to have read some obscure book. Why you Canadians continue to bring this nonsense down as facts I will never know :| :|

Anyways. While I can’t account for every single Israeli soldier, as one my self who went and knows many others that volunteered, I can categorically state that none of us went for that selfish reason. No, all of us felt that we Jews only have one homeland and that when Jews are fighting for survival or simply defending themselves against attackers, it is our moral obligation to help in defence of our brethren.

Believe me if ever there was an army you can put that label to it would be the American and also the Canadian armies. In fact maxim magazine had a poll out a while ago and it asked soldiers why they joined and around 50 percent said it was because “they wanted to blow **** up” now I understand that maxim is not a great reputable source but I am sure that if not 50 percent there is still a high percentage of soldiers that went for those reasons.

I feel some Israeli propaghanda coming on soon we better change the subject quick :petting: yes of course cnuck, when we Israelis post our opinions, being that most of it is based on what we saw and what we experience (be it in the army or just living there), I guess in your logic it is us who is sprouting propaganda whereas your analyses of what’s going on in Israel while you are sitting on your fat ass in Canada is the truth……I mean you see how redicules you sound?!? And we are the ones sprouting propaganda .. rofl rofl

EvanL

09-22-2003, 10:44 PM

Wow you are really a ****ing idiot. You argue like Bill O'reilly. You give no base to your facts and you act as if everyone elses comments are worth zero. The fact that you even brought my question up as being something to do with the bible is enough to tell me that your on edge thinking that we are judging you for something. Seriously man settledown. And to give you a good fact. Since the Intifadah began in 2000, over 55,000 Israelis have emigrated to Canada. So if your viewing this as being canada vs Israel, change your ****ing mind buddy. Truth be it Canada and Israel are allys.

IDFM203

09-22-2003, 11:25 PM

Wow you are really a f*** idiot. You argue like Bill O'reilly. You give no base to your facts and you act as if everyone elses comments are worth zero. . first of all I do in fact give base to my comments on hard facts unlike your usual preface of “I read somewhere” or the famous” I heard somewhere” blah blah….

No I never said or insinuated that everyone’s else’s comments are worth zero. All I have done is to show how yours and a few others are worth nothing, not everyone else’s.

I have now clearly called you out on a few of the facts “that you have heard somewhere” so it is not me who is the f**king idiot here.

The fact that you even brought my question up as being something to do with the bible is enough to tell me that your on edge thinking that we are judging you for something. . Hey moose head !!!WTF is wrong with you. I never brought anything to do with the bible. All I brought down was a website that talked about Christians in the idf. All that bible stuff had nothing to do with this discussion. You made a statement” I heard that it is impossible for a Christian who is an Israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come” and all I did in response was to show you how you were wrong. It is obvious to all that all that bible stuff in there had nothing to do with this conversation and I did not mean for any of it to apply here. No, all I brought down from it was where it says that there are Christians in the idf. Now of course there are bible stuff in there for it is a Christian site, I cant help that but it is clear to any sane person that the only reason why I brought down that site was to clearly counter your bull**** contention that there are no christens in the idf When the facts clearly are, that there are indeed Christians in the idf!!

Seriously man settledown. And to give you a good fact. Since the Intifadah began in 2000, over 55,000 Israelis have emigrated to Canada. So if your viewing this as being canada vs Israel, change your f*** mind buddy. Truth be it Canada and Israel are allys. what the hell does this information have to do with anything?!? I haven’t ever insinuated that this is a Canada vs. Israel thing. All I have done is to show how you and your fellow chuck andyman have no real clue as to what your talking about and that all you do is post things “that you have heard somewhere” which of course is code for bull****!!!! No I am not against Canada, that is because surprise I am also partly Canadian (through my mother and I do in fact hold Canadian citizenship). No, what I am against is stupid Canadians who are sitting on their fat asses in canada telling the Israelis that they are wrong when it is they that have experienced and saw the things that you are insinuating they are wrong about.

EvanL

09-22-2003, 11:33 PM

Well hear what buddy? Im living in NYC. So too bad. And My post about christians in the idf was a question. It wasnt me making a statement. I was looking for an answer, and you freaked out. Go take ur meds.

IDFM203

09-22-2003, 11:55 PM

Well hear what buddy? Im living in NYC. So too bad. . boy you sound so juvenile. I mean what does you living in ny have to do with anything. I never said anything against Canada for most of what I was saying was directed against you personally and your ridicules comments, so you countering that your a Canadian living in the U.S. is simply an absurd counter post not to mention offensive to the Canadians on this board.

And My post about christians in the idf was a question. It wasnt me making a statement. I was looking for an answer, . no you made a statement and a question but I realise now that you are to stupid to realise that. This is what you said. “I heard that it is impossible for a Christian who is an Israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come”

Now……..

“I heard that it is impossible for a Christian who is an Israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army “ that is basically a statement in where you insinuate as “fact” based on “what you heard” that there are no Christians in the idf.

Now……….

“How come” is where you ask the question… get it?!?

and you freaked out. Go take ur meds. typical lame Canadian comeback here.

Listen buddy. In case you haven’t noticed this is an Internet forum where ideas and arguments are presented. When morons bring up ridicules facts and arguments it is only to be expected that sane individuals will see that and try to counter back, that is not freaking out but it is a mere response to idiocy.

Now I am actually very calm here behind my keyboard. So no, I am not freaking out. In fact I am enjoying making you look stupid here for all to see. Now the only medicine I am taking now is this can of cola that I have here that I am drinking from, but I suggest that you go take your nightly dose of Ritalin so perhaps it can finally calm you down so maybe it will enable you to finnaly concentrate just enough to actually make at least one normal and factual sentence as opposed to the countless bull**** that I have been seeing out of you of late.

MEGR

09-23-2003, 12:03 AM

Neat!

EvanL

09-23-2003, 12:24 AM

Touché. I agree with you on that last post. And i am tired of this arguing. Bickering. So before all these misunderstanings get more out of hand, how bout you say we form peace? Do you concur?

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 12:38 AM

Touché. I agree with you on that last post. And i am tired of this arguing. Bickering. So before all these misunderstanings get more out of hand, how bout you say we form peace? Do you concur?wow!! Much respect to you.....I am truly impressed.!!

Hell yeah I concur!!

I hope that I have at least cleared up some of the false insinuations and "facts" that you thought was to be true.

I guess we should both take note in that we can disagree but that it should be in an atmosphere of friendship and not one of this animosity that we have been exhibiting here.

I thing a few brewskies like a Molson or labbat would be great right about now..eh?!?

Shalom!!

Andyman

09-23-2003, 01:04 AM

typical lame Canadian. How about a typical arrogant biased jew. Why are you even talking to us were gebtils and your the promised race piss off. Actually the article I was talkin about is from a reporter who spent a lot of time with the IDF and he said that. Why dont you read the article yourself before you discredit me. Every Israeli on this Forum has the same thing to say every time. Israel this and its so great well all you jews stick together so why dont you try to open your mind and look beyond the Torah you brainwashed norrowminded jew. Not one has ever proven me wrong.

He219

09-23-2003, 01:08 AM

Strong words, Andyman. Everyone can be proven wrong - at least once!

The Ironic twist to this thread is that "the right of return" is referenced for Russians immigrating to Israel and serving in a fight against an indigenous terrorist threat amongst an exiled populous demanding thier own "right of return".

To summarize, every Christian is entitled to defend his life, his family and his property against evildoers. There is no Biblical reason why a Christian cannot serve in the military and defend his country against those who attack it.

Why not fully integrate?

p-)

Andyman

09-23-2003, 01:24 AM

well I dated a Jewish girl for 2 years and let me tell you I am a very well liked guy. All bragging aside I'm just generally a nice guy and since everyone likes evidence on this site I will back that up with the fact that I am a salesman so people have to like me or i dont get paid and I won prom king at my high school prom. Anyways I have never been treated so badly by a family of people in my life than the family of this jewish girl who i dated. They would say to my face that its too bad that I'm not jewish cause they liked me and would consider letting me marry their doughter but the fact that I'm not a jew was just unoptional. How rediculous was that considering that this girl and I were madly in love but her family just wouldnt accept me eventhough I did favours for them frequently and her mother would grunt when i stayed for dinner I was apalled at who stuck up they were towards gentiles and all of her friends and family were the same. All other encounters with jews that i have had i was left with the same feeling, what is wrong with you people. Of all races of people they should know what the effects of prejudice can be. And they still griped about WW2 and said they hated germans and got mad when germany did well in the olympis or what not. It was a mockery of the jews themselves adn to this day not one jew has proven to me that they are not arrogant and self absorbed. Of course the eventual destruction of our relationship was her parents constant bickering and I was left high and dry by this girl who apparently still loved me but could not see me anymore I learned a valuable lesson with that relationship.

He219

09-23-2003, 01:27 AM

I am a salesman so people have to like me or i dont get paid and I won prom king at my high school prom

rofl

But I do emphathize for your emotional injury. You know, yours is a story repeated worldwide through many interethnic relationships. Leave it as a testament to xenophobia, ethnocentrism or whatever you wish to call it, but just don't start stereotyping....

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 01:30 AM

typical lame Canadian. How about a typical arrogant biased jew. Why are you even talking to us were gebtils and your the promised race piss off. .

What a stupid moose head you are to even make this ridicules comment.

Actually the article I was talkin about is from a reporter who spent a lot of time with the IDF and he said that. Why dont you read the article yourself before you discredit me. . I already responded to this by saying wow!! How typical. I mean you are just like you friend who just always happens to have heard some obscure source or where you have just happened to have read some obscure book. Why you Canadians continue to bring this nonsense down as facts I will never know

And it is obscure being that you have not told us the name of the book, who wrote it, or even posted a link to it etc……

Besides like I also said before…..

While I can’t account for every single Israeli soldier, as one my self who went and knows many others that volunteered, I can categorically state that none of us went for that selfish reason. No, all of us felt that we Jews only have one homeland and that when Jews are fighting for survival or simply defending themselves against attackers, it is our moral obligation to help in defence of our brethren.

Every Israeli on this Forum has the same thing to say every time. Israel this and its so great well all you jews stick together . yes we say the same things for we have a couple of things in common. One is that we all have experienced the same things and saw the same things and know firsthand the real realities of what’s going on unlike you, who sits on you fat ass back in high school in Canada and sprouts out your bull**** about how we are wrong in what we are seeing and experiencing. Only an ignorant fool such as your self can make the claims that you make.

Another thing we have in common is fighting scum like you and exposing you for the real bigot that you are. I guess it worked for you have now clearly come out and shown us the filth you are.

so why dont you try to open your mind and look beyond the Torah you brainwashed norrowminded jew. Not one has ever proven me wrong. . the “no one has ever proven me wrong” bull**** just shows who really among us is the close minded fool. For it is quite clear that you haven’t really been right on anything here.

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 01:37 AM

ArmoredDov_D9

09-23-2003, 06:21 AM

Considering the Soviet Union collapsed more than 10 years ago,and the births of Indepandant States such as the Baltic States,Ukraine etc,they would've had ample opportunities to leave wherever they came from,and to claim their birthrights as Jews
But this still does not make sense.........the war in Chechnya has not been going on for no more than 5 years,so why now if they themselves were Jews when they could've left for Israel much earlier?

You know that not all Jews ascended (ALU = immegrated) immedately to Israel. Some are still abroad. There are various reason that Jews ascend to Israel: idealogoy, family, financial problems, persucations etc.
Every Jews is allowed (moreover, encouraged) to ascend to Israel and when he ascend he and his family (even some of them are not-Jews) automaticly get Israeli citizenship.

Why did they feel obligated to Fight for Russia.........There is more to this than simple heridatory feelings,it makes no sense,if they were conscripted why not claim their birthrights then,and leave for Israel to avoid the bloody war in Chechnya,a war that conscripts do not want to fight but have no choice!!,but rather go to Israel and join the IDF and serve under it?...........a "Soldier of Fortune" does not always get paid vast sums of money,many never see anything at all,but the adrenalin rush of battle proves too strong for many veterans of war and they seek ther conflicts to apply their trade..............you said they were snipers,well this indicates to me that these guys enjoyed the killing,and that they have some perverse satisfaction at killing for killings sake,they sound very much like war Junkies,when any soldier goes through the horrors of war ,the last thing he wants to do is go through it all again,unless he has the desire to kill,where his emotions are no longer part of his soul.!

They are no differend than American who volunteer to the US army.

citizen-k

09-23-2003, 06:23 AM

I heard that it is impossible for a christian who is an israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come?

I saw on T.V that Canadians have a funny head. How come?

citizen-k

09-23-2003, 06:24 AM

I see 2 conflicting sides here both from Israeli forum members,so which one are we to believe in?Was there a wee raw nerve hit earlier?

2 Jews, 3 Opinions...

Argyll

09-23-2003, 09:31 AM

Armd Div wrote

They are no differend than American who volunteer to the US army.

Thats the problem they WERE NOT ISRAELI's by Birth,they were RUSSIAN at birth,hence why they served the the RUSSIAN army

They are very different,and there is no comparison whatsoever!!
This is a load of tripe,this whole Russian thing,you just said that all jews are encouraged to return to Israel,so what kept these Russian Snipers then,from returning to the promised land sooner?To a land well known to be prosperous and free,very low crimes etc,yet these "Immigrants" opted for poverty,zero prospects,and a crime wave that has as many murders in a night as there are terrorist attacks..............what a load of Bull!!

ArmoredDov_D9

09-23-2003, 09:48 AM

Thats the problem they WERE NOT ISRAELI's by Birth,they were RUSSIAN at birth,hence why they served the the RUSSIAN army

So? What's the problem with it? At least half of the IDF soldier in 1948 weren't born in Israell but in Europe, Marroco and Russia.
The immegrants from Russia are full and legitimate Israelies. They have the same duties and the same right that I have.

This is a load of tripe,this whole Russian thing,you just said that all jews are encouraged to return to Israel,so what kept these Russian Snipers then,from returning to the promised land sooner?
Flying tickets cost money. It is possible that some of them were hard decision to leave friends and family.
Jews are encouraged to return to Israel, but most of them are not doing so. It is not that easy to leave a country and many have established themselves there.

To a land well known to be prosperous and free,very low crimes etc,yet these "Immigrants" opted for poverty,zero prospects,and a crime wave that has as many murders in a night as there are terrorist attacks..............what a load of Bull!!

You summerized the last paragraph of your excellently. I don't understand whay tou want to say. Israel, in the bottom line, is a good place to live in, despite all the terrorist attack and the hard time we have in here because of the war.

Argyll

09-23-2003, 11:52 AM

How on earth can somebody that is not born in Israel ,but be born in Russia be called an Israeli,that is quite absurd!!Even if generations of family are born in Russia,they are Russian,the only exception I can see to this is of either one or both parents are Israeli's by birth,an American born overseas to American Parents is still an American,a jew born in Russia is still a Russia,an ancient birthright does not give you the right to be called something other than that what you are,if this is so ,and the claims that the Jews were the first ever race,then that makes it everbody on the planet an Israeli then?

Thats exactly the point ,it is a good land to live in despite the terrorist attacks,but like I said these "immigrants decided to spend their time fighting with the Russian Army,and living in Russia,instead of returning to their birthrights

The fact that this is 2003 and not 1948,is also totally relevant,they were Jews who fled their Birthlands because of what was happening there such as Stalins Soviet Union,and Nazi Germany,and Europe as a whole.
The relevance is that they were displaced in 48,with no homeland,and it was then that all this bitterness in the region started off,there was no Israel then,only Brittish Occupied Palestine,and it was there,that the Promise of divided land was supposed to happen.............the rest they say is history,that has also been flogged to death on these forums!!

Apart from the old Soviet Union,there are very few places that there are Jews who would want to return to Israel,there are Millions of Jews in the USA,who are Americans,and consider their birthrights as Americans not Israeli's,so how come we never hear of any Ex _Us Forces offering themselves for the same services to Israel?........The answer is simple an American jew is an American Citizen first and foremost,and he swears allegiance to his flag his country and to God,despite their religion do not feel compounded to pledge allegiance to another country,besides that,if they were to do that they would lose the right to be called American!

citizen-k

09-23-2003, 11:55 AM

Thats exactly the point ,it is a good land to live in despite the terrorist attacks,but like I said these "immigrants decided to spend their time fighting with the Russian Army,instead of returning to their birthrights

The fact that this is 2003 and not 1948,is also totally relevant,they were Jews who fled their Birthlands because of what was happening there such as Stalins Soviet Union,and Nazi Germany,and Europe as a whole.
The relevance is that they were displaced in 48,with no homeland,and it was then that all this bitterness in the region started off,ther was no Israel then,only Brittish Occupied Palestine,and it was there,that the Promise of divided land was supposed to happen.............the rest they say is history,that has also been flogged to death on these forums!!

Apart from the old Soviet Union,there are very few places that there are Jews who would want to return to Israel,there are Millions of Jews in the USA,who are Americans,and consider their birthrights as Americans not Israeli's,so how come we never hear of any Ex _Us Forces offering themselves for the same services to Israel?........The answer is simple an American jew is an American Citizen first and foremost,and he swears allegiance to his flag his country and to God,despite their religion do not feel compounded to pledge allegiance to another country,besides that,if they were to do that they would lose the right to be called American!

rofl

There are many "Americans" serving in the IDF while their families stay in the US (And they get to keep their American citizenship)

Try to add some facts between your opinions, it will make them look more reliable

EvanL

09-23-2003, 12:01 PM

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 12:03 PM

Apart from the old Soviet Union,there are very few places that there are Jews who would want to return to Israel,there are Millions of Jews in the USA,who are Americans,and consider their birthrights as Americans not Israeli's,so how come we never hear of any Ex _Us Forces offering themselves for the same services to Israel?........The answer is simple an American jew is an American Citizen first and foremost,and he swears allegiance to his flag his country and to God,despite their religion do not feel compounded to pledge allegiance to another country,besides that,if they were to do that they would lose the right to be called American! that’s absolutely false. it is a fact that there are plenty of American Jews in the Israeli army. And there are also ex U.S. Soldiers that are in the Israeli army as well. How do I know this?!? Well first I am American and I was in the Israeli army and I also know many other Americans that were in the idf. And secondly I know and studied the laws of this issue and I know what I am talking about here. An American that goes to the Israeli army does not lose his American citizenship and that is because Israel and the U.S. are very good allies. The law only applies if one joins and enemy army or one that the U.S. and that countries aren’t allies but it does not apply to a country that the U.S. is allies with.

ArmoredDov_D9

09-23-2003, 12:04 PM

Thats exactly the point ,it is a good land to live in despite the terrorist attacks,but like I said these "immigrants decided to spend their time fighting with the Russian Army,instead of returning to their birthrights

Moving from birthplace to a distant place is always hard to do. A specialy if you have family and friend their.
Moreover, it may be possible that they were no choice to serve in the Russian army because of a mandatory draft order.

Apart from the old Soviet Union,there are very few places that there are Jews who would want to return to Israel,there are Millions of Jews in the USA,who are Americans,and consider their birthrights as Americans not Israeli's,so how come we never hear of any Ex _Us Forces offering themselves for the same services to Israel?........The answer is simple an American jew is an American Citizen first and foremost,and he swears allegiance to his flag his country and to God,despite their religion do not feel compounded to pledge allegiance to another country,besides that,if they were to do that they would lose the right to be called American!

Wrong again. There are Jewish Americans which comes every year and volunteer to do reserve duty in the army. Because most of them are no war veterans and not unified as one group the media havn't done a big deal about it. But this is happening all the time.

And again, I don't understand why you are deny that those veterans aren't Israelis. Because they were born in Russia? They are living in Israel with Israeli citizenship. Therefore they are Israelis.

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 12:05 PM

I heard that it is impossible for a christian who is an israeli citizen to fight for the israeli army. How come?

I saw on T.V that Canadians have a funny head. How come?

I saw on Tv that all israelis have big noses. How come?

Come on buddy drop the bickering.hey it takes two to bicker here.

I was hoping that we turned a new leaf (I used that word for you cnuck) here.

shalom!!

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 12:12 PM

Wrong again. There are Jewish Americans which comes every year and volunteer to do reserve duty in the army. Because most of them are no war veterans and not unified as one group the media havn't done a big deal about it. But this is happening all the time.
sorry, I just have to correct one thing. There are many Americans that are war veterans in Israel. Heck in 1948 there were many American Jews that went to Israel to help out. Throughout every war there were American Jews that were there fighting in the defence of Israel
Heck I am a war veteran of this current war.

Of course we aren’t unified as one group for when we are in Israel we are Israelis just like everyone else.

Argyll

09-23-2003, 12:35 PM

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 12:53 PM

Ok I stand corrected!
So any American can join a foreign Army and fight for it,by pledging allegiance to it,as long as it was not an enemy state,...........well that just about sums it all up for me,its pretty clear that the US has always supported Israel through all its misdemeanours,and Human rights violations,and people wonder why the US/Israel is despised so much by a lot of countries and Muslims/Arabs across the world! !!!! yeah well if defending yourself and fighting back in response is what you insinuate to be human rights violations then it is no wonder that we Jews feel like the whole world is anti Semitic.

Israel is not perfect. Heck what country is? But there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting a terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do.

Oh and the Muslim world hates the U.S. and Israel for the simple fact that they are living and breathing there. That is THE ONLY REASON.!!!

An interesting point you made about the US volunteers in 48,when it was through acts of terrorism that the stae of Israel was born!!. WRONG AGIaN!! THOSE JEWS CAME TO ISRAEL TO HELP IN ITS FIGHT AGINST THESE ARAB ARMIES THAT CAME IN AND ATTACKED ISRAEL.

It cant be easy living in Israel right now,as it was for the descent folks in Ireland through the 70's and 80's.I have your respect,but I do not share all of your views,I am not anti Israeli either,I know nothing about your culture or beliefs,well if as you say you no nothing about us then why don’t you stop making your false assumptions about what you think are the realities when it is clear that you are basing it on the media propaganda that you are used to watching.

I mean, didn’t it ever occur to you that we Israelis live there and experience and see what we are seeing and that we have a true grasp of what is really going on there unlike some of you who simply sit on your fat asses in some distant country and sprout your negative insinuations based solely on what “you read somewhere” or “saw somewhere”

apart from my sisters foster parents,parents who I had the chance to meet when I was a kid,and I'll never forget my innocent question as a 12 year old boy asking the Grandmother why she and her husband had tatoos on their arms..........there were no words just tears in their eyes,and later in my growing years learning the horrible truth,I always felt sad about having ever asked them!...............and your are right...........................never again!!!! now this is truly classic jackel and hyde here. Ok so after all you false insinuations you make this hart wrenching statement. All I can say is that I was moved by this last paragraph

Oh and your damn right…….never again!!! ( and this time we are going to make sure of that)

Argyll

09-23-2003, 02:13 PM

Hey IDM,
You are a complete sanctamonious Jack Off pal,when the hell are you going to get that huge chip off your shoulders
The Israelis as well as the Palestinians have both carried out atrocities,its your stupid,we are the chosen people attitiude that gets me so pissed,you have never done wrong,always have had things done wrong to you,hey Like I said,What happened during WW2 was unforgivable,but it's time you shut the hell up,about coming over all superior and high and mighty.
You are a racist bigot,by posting the sole reason as they hate you because you are there is complete ****e
Israel was born out of terrorism against the occupying british forces,but thats right you rewrite the history books to suit yourself,and make out that Israel is the victim in all this..................garbage

My fat ass as you called it has been in the war against terror,2 tours of duty in Northern Ireland,where I have lost friends.
Hey buddy boy,the fact that you say you're an American Jew,who went to fight against terror makes you no better than a mercenary.
This whole topic was about these Russian "Immigrants" who fought for Russia in Chechnya,and are now fighting for the IDF,I made comments to that fact,that I found it incredible for this to happen,then along came the holier than tho chosen,no offence to the descent Israelis,but a lot of you guys are so full of bitterness and hatred,you don't look at the outside world,just as you accused me of not looking inside yours................have a nice day!!

ArmoredDov_D9

09-23-2003, 02:38 PM

Argyll, I had it from your racist xanophobic approach. Those Russia-born Jewish who immegrated to Israel are FULL LEGITIMATE ISRAELIS. They live here, the have Israeli citizenship, they are commited to Israel's values.
They have every right to defend Israel and serve in the IDF. Like it or not, we accept them as full members and thank them for their service.

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 02:44 PM

Hey a**hole (Argyll),
Who amongst us Jews ever said that we were the chosen one?!?. No it is you who keeps on putting that label on us. We never said any such thing. It is not a chosen attitude to simply want to defend your self.

We aren’t crying victims here and just going on about the holocaust. No all we are doing is saying that never aging!! and that faced with the same mentality that a lot of Palestinians have that is the exact same as Hitler (where in fact a lot of them want to see us all exterminated) well this time we are going to make sure ourselves that there doesn’t occur again another holocaust. No, we use the holocaust as motivation and not as simply crying victim.

The "terrorists" on the Jewish side before Israel was directed mainly against the British and it was conducted by an extreme minority of the Jews. Besides the British practices against the Jews and their clear allegiance to the Arabs had something to do with all of that. But this a whole other discussion

No, Israel was created after it fought in a defensive war against attacking Arab armies that wanted to see every Jew killed.

I never said that we never did anything wrong or the like. No ones perfect but I repeat, there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting a terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….get it?!?

Now most of the Muslim world and a large majority of Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed, that is a fact. It is not a racist statement to say that when it is a fact.

As for my fat ass comment. First of all it was a general statement that wasn’t to be taken literally as if you are fat and sitting on your ass right now. No, it was direct specifically to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in that no matter what wars or what you have been doing, it has not been in this area or have anything to do with the realities of this particular region.
So my hats off to you for fighting in Northern Ireland, but that doesn’t make you any much of an authority of what’s going on in Israel especially when you have people here who have fought and have lived and experienced the things that they have experienced.

I mean you will notice that none of us Israelis really goes into northern Ireland with you for we know that we aren’t there and that it is you who would have a better grasp of what’s going on there then any one of us. I mean just imagine one of us going off about you troops and how you are all war criminals there even though we aren’t there and have no clue as to what we are talking about.

So again, that fat ass comment just means that you aren’t here and it is ridicules for you to institute that we are committing war crimes and the like simply by “hearing somewhere” or “reading somewhere” when it is us that is there and knows the truth of what we saw and experienced.

No any one of us who goes to Israel isn’t going for a dime but is going as a duty of a Jew to defend other Jews. I mean all we Jews have to help fight in our defence, are Jews ourselves. All Jews are Israelis citizens and when an American Jew comes to Israel to help out he is in a way just fulfilling the obligation that he has, being that his brethren are in a war and as a Jew he should be there helping to defend them.

Argyll

09-23-2003, 02:45 PM

I've no sympathies for terrorists,and have no sympathies for those who behave like terrorists!!

Ok this is just getting us nowhere,tell you what,I shall apologise for any accusations of racism,or any other slights on your religion,there are strong emotions here,and there's no point in slagging each other off just for the hell of it.I don't pretend to know you're culture,I repect it,and your people........hey we used to drink beer on the beaches of Cyprus,and now we're bickering like 10 year olds.........!!

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 03:00 PM

I've no sympathies for terrorists,and have no sympathies for those who behave like terrorists!! . I actually agree with both points. Yes I am against terrorists and those that behave like terrorists. So what does both of these points have to do with Israel?!?

I reapeat….there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting a terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….get it?!?

That is not terrorism but a response to terrorists that struck innocent Israeli civilians. (In most cases)

Ok this is just getting us nowhere,tell you what,I shall apologise for any accusations of racism,or any other slights on your religion,there are strong emotions here,and there's no point in slagging each other off just for the hell of it.I don't pretend to know you're culture,I repect it,and your people........hey we used to drink beer on the beaches of Cyprus,and now we're bickering like 10 year olds.........!! yes I am still up for a brew with you are anyone else here. :D

Simpl disagreements is all good and dandy, but insinuating false accusations and allegations which have no basis in any real facts is simply something that will be called on by us that are there and have a better grasp of the real facts and realities that it is that we are seeing and experiencing.

Shalom!!

122

09-23-2003, 03:01 PM

Hello

I am a long time lurker of this website, I seriously had to register just to post something to mr "argyll"

To argyll.
You sir, must be the biggest retard on the internet!

I simply cannot understand how a good looking canadian salesman as yourself can be stupid enough to spend his time arguing with a group of proffesional israeli soldiers about people (in this case russian) who move from one country to another, become citicens. then do the mandatory military service in that country, get the clue? MANDATORY means _ALL_ citicens of the country must serve!

Your "facts" are the biggest piles of **** on the internet. Jesus!, the stuff you claim to have read in "books", are things these guys have experienced for REAL!

I know the degree of professionalism in the IDF, trust me on that. The IDF have alot of strong warriors, lions (and those of you in recon will know what I mean about that)

Grow some balls, grow a brain and stop calling people in the morning selling tampax you ****ing loser.

martinexsquaddie

09-23-2003, 03:08 PM

Sorry if firing a hellfire into a crowded street is a clinical strike against terrorists whats next Cluster Bombs.
People have said every Ira man shot by the security forces was worth 10 recruits to the Provos.
Having relatives Blown up while the IDF is "being clinical" must be worth Beacoup recruits . Especially as no real traing neede to blow yourself to Hell and thats without the cult of the maytr being taken into account.

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 03:29 PM

Sorry if firing a hellfire into a crowded street is a clinical strike against terrorists whats next Cluster Bombs. . what a truly idiotic thing to say. I don’t think you realise this, but Israel uses these highly sophisticated weapons systems (like the apache helicopter), for they are the most accurate systems and that they do in fact save lives. In most cases these systems work perfectly and usually only the intended target is taken out. That can only be achieved through the use of these very sophisticated systems.

Of course sometimes “innocent civilians” (well a lot of the times these innocents are placed on purpose next to the intended target or they themselves or a strong supporter of this terrorist and his actions) are killed but that is not the intention and it is sometimes impossible in a war (that was thrown on Israel by these people that no matter what is offered, will continue to fight till they see Israel destroyed) to ensure all civilians are safe and again.. there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….

In fact your analogy of cluster bombs even furthers more the proof of how retrained Israel actually is, in the fact that it doesn’t use them (cluster bombs), unlike I am sure most other countries when faced with this high level of terrorism would in fact use them, but Israel only uses these highly sophisticated systems that are accurate in most times to actually limit the loss of innocent lives.

Having relatives Blown up while the IDF is "being clinical" must be worth Beacoup recruits . Especially as no real traing neede to blow yourself to Hell and thats without the cult of the maytr being taken into account. listen what do you expect Israel to do?!? Israel has every right to defend themselves. This whole argument of creating more martyrs is really fallacious for it is not as if yesterday there were ten and now as a result of Israel responding there are twenty for the simple fact is that in the most recent poll, over 80 percent of the Palestinians strongly supported suicide bombings, so no matter what Israel does, there is the high willingness to do these acts amongst a majority of the Palestinian population. There isn’t more and more of these amrtyers all of a sudden being created for it is already close to its peak, meaning almost everyone is willing to do it in their fanatical belief that Allah will reward them with paradise.

Secondly if defending ourselves leads to more suicide bombers then that doesn’t mean that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend them selves. Israel has tried every conciliatory measure out there and it has all been rejected and instead they threw this war upon us.

Argyll

09-23-2003, 03:37 PM

Hey 122,
I'm not Canadian,so if you lurked here you'd know where I came from and you're calling me a retard!!!I'm not even going to guess where you're from!!
The Russian Immigrants were "volunteers",they had not been drafted............get it?
My facts...............em care to be more specific,and put up the truth then,I have mixed fact with my opinion youknow the same one you're using now ?
If you would be so kind as to point out "MY" false allegations,and you show me fact then I'll resind them!

Proffesionalism..............em I have served my country too,and not for a 2 year draft either!........who's looking retarded now?

IDFM 203...........stick the kettle on!!! :hug:

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 03:55 PM

Like said before I am all for peace here and will go for a beer with any one (well almost anyone). :D

I am just not going to accept the false insinuations that Israel is committing war crimes and human rights violations when the reality is that it is not. Israel is not perfect and it does a times make mistake. hell that could be applied to every country. Every country in the world makes mistakes, if not even more. No, in most cases Israel is defending themselves against these attackers that no matter what is offered to them will fight till they see all Jews into the sea. Israel has the moral right to defend themselves. Period!!! And I repeat...there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….

And I have gone over a few more facts that I will not repeat but I have clearly shown you how some of your false insinuations are just that...false!!!

Now with that said where is a good brewskie when you need one… :lol: :lol:

Argyll

09-23-2003, 04:20 PM

Listen guys,I never said anything about war crimes at all,I mentioned that Israel,along with the Palestinians were guilty of Human rights violations,these are not made up,they are documented,and have been pointed out here in other forums............!

Again I'm not Canadian,that's probably insulting the Canadians by calling me such.

Like I also said,there are passions here that are running very high,and understandably so from your points of view,again i'll repeat it,I like the Israeli style of handling terrorism,re read what I posted here previously.
I also said that I very much repsected the Israeli people,my views have not changed in the last few hours,and again for 122's benefit,I have seen terrorism up close,and personal,so i know where you are coming from.

I had a different view and opinion on these Ex Russian Snipers,at 40+,serving in the war in Chechnya,i'd say they were definately not conscripts,but career soldiers within the Russian Army,all probably ex SNCO's,and possible officers,my observations that at that late age in life it just seemed strange to immigrate,and then "Volunteer" to serve,at no time did I say it was wrong!

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 04:26 PM

Well again simply saying both sides do it, is to really exercise in simple and stupid judgment. I have documented already the discrepancies in other forums already on the fallacies of these so called Israeli human rights abuses so I will try not to go over it again but I will just repeat my oft repeated sentence to disqualify that "both sides do" it argument. there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel RESPONDING by targeting terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do

ArmoredDov_D9

09-23-2003, 04:30 PM

Listen guys,I never said anything about war crimes at all,I mentioned that Israel,along with the Palestinians were guilty of Human rights violations,these are not made up,they are documented,and have been pointed out here in other forums............!

It is war, what do you expect? Although Israel does it best to keep Palestinian Human Rights it is impossible to so 100% durוng war when every street stage a gunfight and Palestinian terrorist use the population as human shield.

I had a different view and opinion on these Ex Russian Snipers,at 40+,serving in the war in Chechnya,i'd say they were definately not conscripts,but career soldiers within the Russian Army,all probably ex SNCO's,and possible officers,my observations that at that late age in life it just seemed strange to immigrate,and then "Volunteer" to serve,at no time did I say it was wrong!

They could find plenty of work to do at Russia. Do not forget that the Chechnia wars began at 1995 - so it may be possible that the veterans have immegrated to Israel before 2000 (the begining of the Intifada). Anyway, there is no wrong in what they're doing. A sniper is after all a rifleman trained in long-distances sharpshooting.

Andyman

09-23-2003, 06:21 PM

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0212/ph02.html

You cannot view the entire article on the net so yeah this is just a blurp. Heres your evidence IDF

koster

09-23-2003, 06:39 PM

Andyman

09-23-2003, 06:57 PM

by the way IDF I told that story because I wanted you guys to know that not one Jewish individual has proven me wrong. Of all my interactions with those people I have left with the same attitude. Me being prom king or a salesman (which i am good at) was just my evidence to the fact that I am open minded with all individuals and generally get along with anyone I encounter however my point was simply that "Jews are racist" and I personally believe that. I mean this is a race of people who from birth are told that they are ethnically superior. Then they go to hebrew school and are basically told about the history and how they are gods chosen race and how jesus wasnt the messiah and that the chrisitans are wrong. Then they grow up like you and believe whole heartedly in their nation and each other. They are very close minded and if anyone wants to dispute that why dont they look at all the posts on this discussion by the "israeli" members who argue against other people and say that their points have no credibility. What defence has been given by the "israelis" that proves their actions justifiable, none. Oh yes and no Im not fat, I'm the captain of a rep soccer team and am physically active. I also start basic training in 2 weeks and have in the past year and a half undertaken a workout regiment to which I have lost 35 lbs and reduced my bodyfat by %22. So yeah i used to be a fat ass but now I am definately not. I personally hate arguing about the whole israeli thing (especially with jews) cause no point will ever be accepted from any none pro-israeli arguments. I am open minded to debate but I do not want to argue with you anymore. Do not take my withdrawl as a victory take it as a message that your nations problems will not be solved if you carry your opinions in a stubborn way. I am not an anti-semite but I do get carried away I know, and for this I apologize and do not mean to generalize an entire race of people because that is plain stupidity. But by calling me fat, or stupid or whatever will not make israels problems go away. And going back to the girlfriend story I was humbled by the way I was treated and frankly had a "hello nice weather goodbye" relationship with that girls family. I was in no way anti-semitic they simply would not accept me and thats final, I know I was there. Sorry to all the jews on the forum, I just think that your actions today will not save you tomorrow. :( :roll: :petting:

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 07:01 PM

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0212/ph02.html

You cannot view the entire article on the net so yeah this is just a blurp. Heres your evidence IDF that’s evidence?!? rofl rofl No, all I saw there was one mans opinion.

Andyman

09-23-2003, 07:10 PM

Andyman

09-23-2003, 07:19 PM

"Judaism is one of the world's oldest religions, with about fifteen million followers worldwide. It all began here, in ancient Israel.

Jews believe there is only one God. They believe that almost four thousand years ago, in about 1900 BC, the first Jewish people were born. Later, God made the Jews His Chosen People - His special people. Jews believe that's also when God promised them the land of Israel.

The person God told all this to was a Prophet or messenger called Abraham. It's the same Abraham who appears in the Christian and Muslim holy books. In fact, Christians and Muslims both regard Abraham as a Prophet, or messenger.

There are more similarities between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus Christ was Jewish. But whereas Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God, Jews don't. That's why they don't celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ."
-Masada college student

This is an excerp from:

http://www.abc.net.au/btn/specials/religion/script.htm

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 07:47 PM

by the way IDF I told that story because I wanted you guys to know that not one Jewish individual has proven me wrong. Of all my interactions with those people I have left with the same attitude. no, you told us that story to somehow justify you racist and bigot attitudes towards all Jews. I cant account for all Jews, but most Jews are very accommodating and very respectful to non Jews. Of course when a moron such as your self says ”just think if Hitler had finished what he started we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we” then of course the Jews you are going to come into contact with aren’t going to be very receptive towards you.

Me being prom king or a salesman (which i am good at) was just my evidence to the fact that I am open minded with all individuals and generally get along with anyone I encounter wow you really show your youth with this statement. I mean what a ridicules way to prove your so called open mindness. I bet you didn’t know this, but there are also Jewish prom kings and queens out there and that there are also lots of good Jewish salespeople out there. So acc. To your logic, Jews are also open minded. In fact I was one my self and the only reason why I stopped now is because I am in university.

however my point was simply that "Jews are racist" and I personally believe that. that’s a clear lie and its your insistence on that lie that proves that it is you that is close minded. (Yeah I know salesman blah blah…… prom king blah blah blah )

I mean this is a race of people who from birth are told that they are ethnically superior. : what?!? Who?!? I mean no one ever told me that. I don’t know of any Jews that were told that. In fact its only you that is telling us that here.

Then they go to hebrew school and are basically told about the history and how they are gods chosen race and how jesus wasnt the messiah and that the chrisitans are wrong. : first of all it was taught in the bible that the Jews were the chosen people and it’s the same bible that Christians believe in. as for the messiah well its you christens who belive that we are wrong and that Jesus in the messiah. You see the point here is that each of our perspective religions have differences in beliefs and each of us are taught those differences. The Christians believe that we Jews are wrong. All this doesn’t mean that we are racist towards each other.

Then they grow up like you and believe whole heartedly in their nation and each other. : yes we do and what’s wrong with that?!? You Canadians believe in and love your country and each other. I mean that has been proven on this site. The same goes for a lot of other members here who love and believe in their perspective countries.

They are very close minded and if anyone wants to dispute that why dont they look at all the posts on this discussion by the "israeli" members who argue against other people and say that their points have no credibility. : No, we are consistent in arguing against those that are basically insinuating that what we are seeing and experiencing firsthand is not true. In fact it is simply your closed-mind ness in telling us that what we are seeing and experiencing is not true that makes you the real close-minded fool.

What defence has been given by the "israelis" that proves their actions justifiable, none.
oh…..our right to defend ourselves is all the justification that we need and besides the moral equivalence argument is clealy something with which your juvenile mind cant comprehend. Here I will repeat it and perhaps you will get it this time. there simply is not a moral equivalence to Israel responding by targeting terrorists and accidentally killing a bystander with the intentional targeting of innocent civilians as the Palestinians do….

Oh yes and no Im not fat, I'm the captain of a rep soccer team and am physically active. I also start basic training in 2 weeks and have in the past year and a half undertaken a workout regiment to which I have lost 35 lbs and reduced my bodyfat by %22. So yeah i used to be a fat ass but now I am definately not. and you too…..I will just repeat what I told the last person that complained that he wasn’t fat.

“As for my fat ass comment. First of all it was a general statement that wasn’t to be taken literally as if you are fat and sitting on your ass right now. No, it was directed specifically to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in that no matter what wars or what you have been doing, it has not been in this area or have anything to do with the realities of this particular region.
So my hats off to you for fighting in Northern Ireland, but that doesn’t make you any much of an authority of what’s going on in Israel especially when you have people here who have fought and have lived and experienced the things that they have experienced.”

Oh and you were at one point a fat ass ?!? Gee thanks for sharing that with us.

I personally hate arguing about the whole israeli thing (especially with jews) cause no point will ever be accepted from any none pro-israeli arguments. I am open minded to debate but I do not want to argue with you anymore. Do not take my withdrawl as a victory take it as a message that your nations problems will not be solved if you carry your opinions in a stubborn way.

Yes we are stubborn in simply wanting to defend ourselves. And you wimping out now is a read as copout. A victory perhaps. but defiantly a copout!!!

I am not an anti-semite well I don’t care to label anyone but I will let your statement ”just think if Hitler had finished what he started we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we” speak for itself and let others here draw their own conclusions.

and do not mean to generalize an entire race of people because that is plain stupidity. yes and you have clearly done this. So its great to see you admit that you are stupid!!!

IDFM203

09-23-2003, 07:55 PM

like I said, that is just a blup of the books existance, it doesn't show you the entire article, one has to buy the book to view the info that I'm talking about. C'mon IDF I thought that logical thought existed here. Quit trying to shoot down my input with rediculous comebacks, I explained in my earlier post that it was only a blurp smart guy. You're fighting a losing battle, go to your local bookstore and ask if they have that book. "Shooting Under Fire", oh and that opinion is one of a journalist who spent months living and documenting israeli troops and I personally think he's is a qualified source. Hey Moose head,

To have any intellectual honesty you don’t rely on a single reporter and on a single book. Besides there are biased journalists out there. I don’t need a book telling us Israelis
what we saw and what we experienced . It takes a lot more then a journalist to know what’s really going on. I mean there are books out there that are in clear contrast to what that author wrote No I would rather rely on what I saw and experienced as well as what my fellow Israelis saw and experienced and take that as more truth that this one journalist whose clear bias and negativity clearly shines through.

Ichhabe

09-24-2003, 04:49 AM

Hmmm... I stopped reading somewhere in page 2. Why do all this "jewish" postings end up to be 4-5 pages and everyone is in their fox holes???

Shiat, I'm gonna boycot such subjects from now.

Some of you Israelis need to lighten up a little, just my 2 cents.

(Have a sense on whats comming now, hehe.)

Herrmannek

09-24-2003, 06:20 AM

Saranof

09-24-2003, 08:31 AM

And yes, it also that they're good and Arab terrorist are bad.

That is a very intelligent remark. Where did you get it from.

Jewishextremist.com

ArmoredDov_D9

09-24-2003, 08:37 AM

And yes, it also that they're good and Arab terrorist are bad.

That is a very intelligent remark. Where did you get it from.

Jewishextremist.com

Do you want to tell me that Arab terrorist that blow themselves up in a middle of a crowded bus are GOOD people?

What next, Ahmed Yassin and Osama Bin-Laden are saints?

:bash:

Terror supporters are sick, moraly challenged pathetic men.

Andyman

09-28-2003, 03:28 AM

Adri

09-28-2003, 06:22 AM

not all palestinians are terrorists, most of the population doesnt go out in the streats screaming :
"allah!!! death to israel, allah is strong....and blah blah blah"

it would be wrong to hate the palestinian population because of some idiots (there are idiots on bouth sides)

S'13

09-28-2003, 07:15 AM

A poll which was conducted among the Palestinian population found that over 54.8% of the Palestinians living in the Territorys would support suicied bombings even if Israel would change it's policy towards them. Israelis don't think all Arabs support terror but the fact is that most of them do.

Adri

09-28-2003, 07:23 AM

I don not belive that, so you will have to post a link.

it sounds like a propaganda news

S'13

09-28-2003, 07:31 AM

The poll was conducted by a Palestinian organization called "The Palestinian Cnter for Public Opinion". I could bring a link but it's in Hebrew. :D

Adri

09-28-2003, 07:35 AM

The poll was conducted by a Palestinian organization called "The Palestinian Cnter for Public Opinion". I could bring a link but it's in Hebrew. :D

humm, ohugh... dont care I can`t read hebrew....

Saranof

09-28-2003, 08:17 AM

what's so strange about it ??
those guys spent most of their life in the military, fighting those f****** ragheads, what the hell do you expect them to do now ? go home and live a normal life ? its impossible, the only thing they can do is kill, thats the only thing they were taught! and after fighting those bas****s for half of your life, it becomes your goal, to kill them, wherever they are! they don't care about the money, there aren't many things that they care for, most of their buddys are dead, their wive probobly left them, because she couldnt live with a f****d up person that screams every night ...

Look at it this way...
If you had been born in a concentration camp, with an entire countrys military against you, no jobs, no money, no hope then well...
You would be pretty pissed yah?
If enough israelis like you would stop just trying to kill the bombers, and start giving them a better life, there woulnd't be any bombing. Terrorism comes out of poverty and opression, and people in the west are starting to learn that.

ArmoredDov_D9

09-28-2003, 09:03 AM

Saranof

09-28-2003, 10:46 AM

S'13

09-28-2003, 11:31 AM

ArmoredDov_D9

09-28-2003, 11:49 AM

of course they are but you israelis make the same accusations about an entire race of people (Palestinians) that when somebody else does it about the jews you freak. Dont label all palestinians/muslims as terrorists and maybe other people wont make generalizations about the jewish race. Comments at which I will refrain myself from saying ha ha. Like IDF freaked on me and look how he labels the Palestinians, there are few things worse than a hippocrit.

Learn to read. I specisficly wrote that "ARAB TERRORIST (I foegot the s of plurals) are bad."

And yes, the terrorist earn vast support from the Palestinian population. Hamas rallies in the Gaza can gather up to 100,000 Palestinians chanting "death to the Jews! Allah U Achbar! Itbah! Jihad!".

Is taht so strange, considering that they live in a racialy divided country?
You jews should know what it feels like to be a lesser citizen :|

Palestinian are not Israeli citizens, they are citizens of the Palestinian Authority. They vote to the PA paralaiment and president (well, they supposed to but the dictator Arafat don't let them to that) and pay taxes to the PA. The PA is responisble for give them education and welfare and they are also subjects to the Palestinian Police.

So, because Arafat treat them like **** is not an excuse for them to commit mass-murder of Jews and act like crazed bomb rather then human being.

S'13

09-28-2003, 11:55 AM

Look at it this way...
If you had been born in a concentration camp, with an entire countrys military against you, no jobs, no money, no hope then well...
You would be pretty pissed yah?
If enough israelis like you would stop just trying to kill the bombers, and start giving them a better life, there woulnd't be any bombing. Terrorism comes out of poverty and opression, and people in the west are starting to learn that.

Look at it this way...
these "concentration camps" were built by Arab states and today most of these "camps" are actually twons. You are right, an entire countrys military is against you... If your a terrorist that is. Before the current "Intifada" the Palestinians had plenty of jobs, this is because they came into Israel to work. But since most Israels are scared to death from terror attacks been carried out by Arabs coming to "work", there hasn't been much demand for Arab workers. In the past three years Arabs coming to "work" have shot and killed there Israeli employers, one Arab from Gaza who worked as a bus driver run over 8 people and killed them. Before the "Intifada" the Arabs in the territories were prospering also because of tourism and Israeli investers, because of the violents the tourists have stoped coming and so have the Israeli investers. Who Declared the "Intifada" which brought all of this in the first place? Yes, the Palestinian Authority. The truth is not all the Arabs in the territories are suffering, especially those who are close to Arafat and his gang. The violence and the terrorism is what brought the suffering over the Palestinian people. Once the terror stops we can talk peace and things can go back to the way they were.

He219

09-28-2003, 02:30 PM

Saranof

09-28-2003, 02:34 PM

ArmoredDov_D9

09-28-2003, 03:28 PM

Is taht so strange, considering that they live in a racialy divided country?
You should know what it feels like to be a lesser citizen

A racialy divided country?! Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship have the same rights and benefits that jews get in Israel, they can vote, live were they like, represent themselfs in Israels parliament and so on. Arabs in Israel get better treatment then most Arabs would get in an Arab country.

How do you explain that Spouses of Israeli-Arabs born outside of Israel are denied citizenship while 'a right of return' ensures the continuing shifting of ethnic demographics as an indigenous peoples are exiled for flight or forced expulsions from Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948?

;)

Why does Germans don't have "right of rerurn" to the Sudets region of the Czech Republic?

The Palestinian can't try to exterminate the Jewish people and demand that if they lose - the Jews will let them retake their prewar position and give them another chance to exterminate them.

Return of all Palestinian refugees means the destruction of Israel. We will not agree to be the victims of a second Holocaust - which in this time be commited by Palestinans and not by Germans.

martinexsquaddie

09-29-2003, 06:03 AM

a dead civillian is a dead civillian the friends and relatives of a Dead Palenstian are not going to take comfort from the fact that the IDF did not intend to kill there son/farther/whatever.

The problem is the Pals are ethier unwilling or unable to control there side.
the PAl authority probably isn't popular enough to take on Hamas and win.
its not going to win any brownie points taking militants off the streets with its own people is it?

IDFM203

09-29-2003, 10:13 AM

of course they are but you israelis make the same accusations about an entire race of people (Palestinians) that when somebody else does it about the jews you freak. Dont label all palestinians/muslims as terrorists and maybe other people wont make generalizations about the jewish race. Comments at which I will refrain myself from saying ha ha. Like IDF freaked on me and look how he labels the Palestinians, there are few things worse than a hippocrit.Look this moose head he cant stop with his lies.

I never labelled ALL Palestinians. I never said anywhere that ALL of them are terrorists. I have made it clear that a majority of them supports suicide bombings against innocent civilians (by the latest poll) and a lot of them want to see all Jews dead. That is not labelling ALL of them. That is a fact.

Now I didn’t freak out at this shmuck. No all I said was that how dare he insinuate that all I have seen and all my fellow Israelis have seen is wrong simply because he read somewhere in some national geographic magazine. I mean you see how ridicules that sounds .

But you did freak out because some jesiwh girl did approve of you (I can only guess as to why) and because of that you now hate ALL Jews and that you are regretful that Hitler (these are your words)didn’t finish the job. now that is labelling!!!

warchild1/27scout

09-29-2003, 11:34 AM

Is taht so strange, considering that they live in a racialy divided country?
You jews should know what it feels like to be a lesser citizen

A racialy divided country?! Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship have the same rights and benefits that jews get in Israel, they can vote, live were they like, represent themselfs in Israels parliament and so on. Arabs in Israel get better treatment then most Arabs would get in an Arab country.s-13 that is so freakin funny. you are totally right .wonder what an arab would say about that. that arabs get treated better, and have more rights in isreal and the u.s. than they do in an arab country.dude that cracks me up. and if they don't believe it ask thier women. :lol:

He219

09-29-2003, 11:42 AM

ArmoredDov_D9 wrote:

The Palestinian can't try to exterminate the Jewish people and demand that if they lose - the Jews will let them retake their prewar position and give them another chance to exterminate them.
When did the Palestinians try to exterminate the Jews? I believe it was the Arab armies of neighboring regions that invaded in 1948 due to the imposition of a Zionist State with a unilateral declaration made by Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion. The result was Arab-Zionist fighting that left Israel with 78 percent of Palestine while they 'owned' (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history3.html) only 7 percent, far greater than the UN Partition Plan that called for Four-hundred-fifty thousand Palestinians to live within the Jewish state. During the war, 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes and became refugees. Most were driven out either by force or by fear, historians say.

Return of all Palestinian refugees means the destruction of Israel. We will not agree to be the victims of a second Holocaust - which in this time be commited by Palestinans and not by Germans.
Establishment of the Israeli State spelled the destruction of Palestine, so to say. By fostering racial separation in an ethnically 'cleansed' state, do you really think you are reducing the resentment and anymosity that leads to homicidal ethnocentrism? Granting the Palestinians their own soveregnty and allowing a 'right of return' for victims of the 1948 war as Israeli citizens doesn't automatically equate to a Holocaust.

However, an 'integrated' Israeli State would require renunciation of racial predilection that comes with Zionism itself, the primary reason for extremist groups to call for the destruction of the 'segregated' Israeli State. Democracy through racial representation in this information age does not equate to extermination of the Jewish race, especially with integration of various ethnicities throughout the world.

IDFM203

09-29-2003, 12:12 PM

When did the Palestinians try to exterminate the Jews? I believe it was the Arab armies of neighboring regions that invaded in 1948 due to the imposition of a Zionist State with a unilateral declaration made by Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion. The result was Arab-Zionist fighting that left Israel with 78 percent of Palestine while they 'owned' (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history3.html) only 7 percent, far greater than the UN Partition Plan that called for Four-hundred-fifty thousand Palestinians to live within the Jewish state. During the war, 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes and became refugees. Most were driven out either by force or by fear, historians say.

First of all when you say historians claim that they were forced out it must be clear that is only some. Yes there are a lot of revisionist historians out there. Now there were no Palestinians at the time. No it was Arabs living there under British rule. When the British left, there were already Jews and Arabs living ther for years already. By that time though the Arabs were very hostile to the Jews that were living there. In fact it didn’t start when the British left and Ben gurioun declared a state. No, it had been going on for years before that. It had become clear regardless of ben gurins declaration, that the Arabs were going to attack the Jews that were living there. The arabs wanted no part of any inclusion plan. The Jews on the other hand were all for it. It was the Arabs that rejected it and then invaded to kill all the jews. the Arabs that were living there fled from the encouragement of their fellow Arab brethren (who made all sort of promises to them). For after the war they could have stayed but chose not to. In fact there were thousands of Arabs that did stay and they become Israeli citizens. That is not the act of a country that wants to expel the Arabs. If they did they would not have accepted one Arab let alone thousands as Israeli citizens

I will just repost this what I posted on another thread..

What are the Facts?
You have heard about those "Palestinian refugees," who claim "right of return" to Israel. Of course, virtually none of them ever lived in Israel -- they are the children and mostly grandchildren of those who fled in 1948. The total number of those who fled in 1948 is estimated to have been about 650,000. Now the number who wish to return has swollen to almost five million!
How did this exodus come about? In 1948, on the day of the proclamation of the State of Israel, five Arab armies invaded the new country from all sides. In frightful radio broadcasts, they urged the Arabs living there to leave, so that the invading armies could operate without interference. They could return after the expected quick victory in that "holy war," get their property back -- and that of the Jews. Things turned out differently. The invading armies were defeated. Those who had left became refugees -- people without a country. Those who stayed, and their children, are full-fledged citizens of the State of Israel.
These so-called "Palestinian refugees" have not been allowed to settle in the "indivisible Arab nation." They have been supported in camps since 1948. So far, close to $1.8 billion has been spent on their maintenance. No end is in sight. Who pays for that? You guessed it: Through UNWRA Relief, the United States contributes more than 60% of the total cost.
The Arab countries, among them some of the richest in the world who fritter away their enormous fortunes on undreamed luxuries, are satisfied to leave their Arab brethren in those miserable camps. They have never contributed a penny to their maintenance.

Oh and there is Another side of the "refugee" story. Little is heard of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who fled those countries to settle in the newly formed Jewish State of Israel. Every one of these refugees was immediately accepted, resettled, taken care of, and given full citizenship by the fledgling, impoverished, and embattled Jewish State. There never has been, and there certainly is not now, a Jewish "refugee" camp in Israel or anywhere else.
The Arab "refugees" who fled Israel left little wealth and little history, since most of them had not come to "Palestine" until Jewish settlers opened economic opportunities in what had been a desolate country for centuries. But the Jews of Arab lands have a history going back thousands of years. When forced to flee, they left behind land, wealth, and a long history. They arrived in Israel, quite literally only "with their shirts on their backs." They now make up almost 60% of the vibrant and productive population of Israel. What have the Arabs, the richest people in the world, done with their "refugees" in more than 50 years? They have kept them in misery, on the dole of the world, and have taught their hopeless youth the "skills" of suicide missions and of slaughtering defenseless and unarmed men, women, and children.

He219

09-29-2003, 01:28 PM

idfm203, I encourage cohabitation as a resolution to cycles of bitter ethnic turf-fighting and not for the destruction of an Israeli State.

When the British left, there were already Jews and Arabs living ther for years already. By that time though the Arabs were very hostile to the Jews that were living there. In fact it didn’t start when the British left and Ben gurioun declared a state. No, it had been going on for years before that.

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:

Once it was clear that Germany had lost World War II, the Zionists in Palestine turned on the British. Underground Jewish groups began to attack the British army -- and the Palestinians. The campaign against the British also used violence, with the first shots fired on British military and government facilities by underground Jewish armed groups: the Stern Gang and the Irgun. The violence escalated, and by 1946, Great Britain decided to turn the whole issue of what would happen to Palestine over to the newly established United Nations.

The arabs wanted no part of any inclusion plan. The Jews on the other hand were all for it. It was the Arabs that rejected it and then invaded to kill all the jews.

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:

The U.N. proposed partitioning Palestine into two states -- one Jewish, one Arab -- and the General Assembly voted in favor of that solution in November 1947.

The Arab majority in Palestine rejected the U.N. proposal. "The Jews were being offered 55 percent of Palestine when in fact they had owned only seven percent of the country," says Philip Mattar, editor of The Encyclopedia of the Palestinians. "Four-hundred-fifty thousand Palestinians were going to end up within the Jewish state, and they did not see any reason why they should go along with that kind of inequality, that kind of injustice."

the Arabs that were living there fled from the encouragement of their fellow Arab brethren (who made all sort of promises to them).

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:

SHUSTER: Three-quarters of a million Palestinians fled their homes during the war, initiating one of the most contentious debates between Jews and Palestinians. The Zionists and their supporters claimed -- and some still claim -- that the Arab governments ordered the Palestinians to leave.

Historian Howard Sachar says that is not true.

SACHAR: No Arab government was ordering these people to flee. On the contrary, they were ordering them to stay put, under no circumstances to give over their territory to the Jews. It is a myth to assume that these people left voluntarily.

SHUSTER: Over the past two decades younger historians in Israel have argued, using declassified government papers, that in fact Zionist military operations caused the Palestinians to flee. There is now some agreement on this greatest of controversies, between traditional Zionist historians and the so-called revisionists.
SACHAR: There was a good deal of intimidation and even terrorization here and there, particularly along the coastal plain area that was coveted by the Jews. They were terrified by the shooting, by the bombardment.

BENNY MORRIS: In addition to that, Israeli troops in various areas carried out expulsions.

SHUSTER: Benny Morris did the groundbreaking original research on the roots of the Palestinian refugee exodus. He teaches at Ben-Gurion University in Israel.

MORRIS: For good military reasons they wanted clear lines of communication behind the lines. They didn't want snipers. They didn't want guerrillas operating behind the lines. So they wanted to get rid of Arab communities. So there were expulsions in various areas.

SHUSTER: The Palestinians call the war An Naqba, the catastrophe, and point to massacres at villages such as Deir Yassin as evidence that the Jews forced them to leave.

University of Chicago historian Rashid Khalidi argues that the Jews did not want nearly half the population of their new state to be Arab, which would have been the result had both sides accepted the U.N. partition plan.

RASHID KHALIDI: To establish a Jewish state in such circumstances required one of these three options. You either had to boot them out, or they had to become Jews, or you had to accept the possibility that you would one day have an Arab majority in the so-called Jewish state. I'm not suggesting that that in and of itself explains what happened. In each village, locality, city, town, a different outcome obtained for different reasons. In some cases there were massacres. In some cases people were put on trucks and sent away. In some cases they fled on their own. That most Palestinians fled, either because they were driven out or were afraid, I don't think is really disputable.

SHUSTER: The Palestinians fled to refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Gaza, and what is now called the West Bank. Thousands with their children and grandchildren live in those camps until now. And from those camps would spring the Palestinian movement -- the guerrilla fighters and bombmakers and political leaders -- who would continue to fight Israel and challenge its right to exist, down to this day.

For after the war they could have stayed but chose not to. In fact there were thousands of Arabs that did stay and they become Israeli citizens. That is not the act of a country that wants to expel the Arabs.
How do you explain a 'right of return' for Jews and not for Palestinians and denial of citizenship to foreign born spouses of Israeli citizens?
;)

Oh and there is Another side of the "refugee" story. Little is heard of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who fled those countries to settle in the newly formed Jewish State of Israel

The formation of Zionism itself led to the ethnic polarization in the Arab world we see today. Jews had an enormous influence within Arab culture, namely in Iraq, until the advent of Zionism fostered resentment by nations against Jewish populations with a Zionist 'claim' to the Holy Land.

;)

IDFM203

09-29-2003, 06:07 PM

idfm203, I encourage cohabitation as a resolution to cycles of bitter ethnic turf-fighting and not for the destruction of an Israeli State. yes that’s what YOU encourage, that is in stark contrast to what many Palestinians want or have wanted in the past!!!

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:

Phew…………. for a minute there I had thought that you had brought down a non-objective source. Yeah I know all about the npr. I mean if that is a source for credibility on this conflict then hitlers “mien komph” (sp?) is one about the Jews. npr and their clear leftist ideology combined with their clear bias for the Palestinian propaganda has been extensively documented. In fact their errors and gross allegiance to the false Palestinian propaganda is so extensive that all I will do is list here the link to a site, which has documented in detail a lot of their false bias.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=28

But nonetheless I will still respond to this non-source of any intellectual honesty that you have brought down..

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:
Once it was clear that Germany had lost World War II, the Zionists in Palestine turned on the British. Underground Jewish groups began to attack the British army -- and the Palestinians. The campaign against the British also used violence, with the first shots fired on British military and government facilities by underground Jewish armed groups: the Stern Gang and the Irgun. The violence escalated, and by 1946, Great Britain decided to turn the whole issue of what would happen to Palestine over to the newly established United Nations.
first of all underground Jewish groups came into existence as a response to constant arab terror and British compliance with that terror. There was Arab terror way before these groups came into being again it will be to long to list every event so I will just highlight some of the main events.
Arab terrorism was rampant during wave of anti-Jewish riots in 1920-21 (which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner), during the 'Disturbances' of 1929 (which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron, over 129 men women and children were slougthered) recorded incidents of wholesale anti-Jewish Arab violence throughout the pre-state period. They are to numerous to detail here
The Palestinian terrorism campaign was stepped-up on the eve of the UN Partition Resolution of November 1947, and led to the joint Arab invasion of 1948-49 which delineated the boundaries of the newly established State of Israel.

And also these groups would not have came into existence if not for the British clear bias towards the Arabs and their terror towards the Jewish inhabitants.

In 1921, Haj Amin el-Husseini first began to organize fedayeen ("one who sacrifices himself") to terrorize Jews. Haj Amin hoped to duplicate the success of Kemal Atatürk in Turkey by driving the Jews out of Palestine just as Kemal had driven the invading Greeks from his country. Arab radicals were able to gain influence because the British Administration was unwilling to take effective action against them until they finally revolted against British rule.
Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen, former head of British military intelligence in Cairo, and later Chief Political Officer for Palestine and Syria, wrote in his diary that British officials “incline towards the exclusion of Zionism in Palestine.” In fact, the British encouraged the Palestinians to attack the Jews. According to Meinertzhagen, Col. Waters Taylor (financial adviser to the Military Administration in Palestine 1919-23) met with Haj Amin a few days before Easter, in 1920, and told him “he had a great opportunity at Easter to show the world...that Zionism was unpopular not only with the Palestine Administration but in Whitehall and if disturbances of sufficient violence occurred in Jerusalem at Easter, both General Bols [Chief Administrator in Palestine, 1919-20] and General Allenby [Commander of Egyptian Force, 1917-19, then High Commissioner of Egypt] would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish Home. Waters-Taylor explained that freedom could only be attained through violence.”32
Haj Amin took the Colonel’s advice and instigated a riot. The British withdrew their troops and the Jewish police from Jerusalem, allowing the Arab mob to attack Jews and loot their shops. Because of Haj Amin's overt role in instigating the pogrom, the British decided to arrest him. Haj Amin escaped, however, and was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment in absentia.
A year later, some British Arabists convinced High Commissioner Herbert Samuel to pardon Haj Amin and to appoint him Mufti. By contrast, Vladimir Jabotinsky and several of his followers, who had formed a Jewish defense organization during the unrest, were sentenced to 15 years’ imprisonment.
Samuel met with Haj Amin on April 11, 1921, and was assured “that the influences of his family and himself would be devoted to tranquility.” Three weeks later, riots in Jaffa and elsewhere left 43 Jews dead.
Haj Amin consolidated his power and took control of all Muslim religious funds in Palestine. He used his authority to gain control over the mosques, the schools and the courts. No Arab could reach an influential position without being loyal to the Mufti. His power was so absolute “no Muslim in Palestine could be born or die without being beholden to Haj Amin.”The Mufti’s henchmen also insured he would have no opposition by systematically killing Palestinians from rival clans who were discussing cooperation with the Jews.
As the spokesman for Palestinian Arabs, Haj Amin did not ask that Britain grant them independence. On the contrary, in a letter to Churchill in 1921, he demanded that Palestine be reunited with Syria and Transjordan.
The Arabs found rioting to be an effective political tool because of the lax British attitude and response toward violence against Jews. In handling each riot, the British did everything in their power to prevent Jews from protecting themselves, but made little or no effort to prevent the Arabs from attacking them. After each outbreak, a British commission of inquiry would try to establish the cause of the violence. The conclusion was always the same: the Arabs were afraid of being displaced by Jews. To stop the rioting, the commissions would recommend that restrictions be placed on Jewish immigration. Thus, the Arabs came to recognize that they could always stop the influx of Jews by staging a riot.
This cycle began after a series of riots in May 1921. After failing to protect the Jewish community from Arab mobs, the British appointed the Haycraft Commission to investigate the cause of the violence. Although the panel concluded the Arabs had been the aggressors, it rationalized the cause of the attack: “The fundamental cause of the riots was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy....” One consequence of the violence was the institution of a temporary ban on Jewish immigration.
The Arab fear of being “displaced” or “dominated” was used as an excuse for their merciless attacks on peaceful Jewish settlers. Note, too, that these riots were not inspired by nationalistic fervor — nationalists would have rebelled against their British overlords — they were motivated by racial strife and misunderstanding.
In 1929, Arab provocateurs succeeded in convincing the masses that the Jews had designs on the Temple Mount (a tactic that would be repeated on numerous occasions, the most recent of which was in 2000 after the visit of Ariel Sharon). A Jewish religious observance at the Western Wall, which forms a part of the Temple Mount, served as a catalyst for rioting by Arabs against Jews that spilled out of Jerusalem into other villages and towns, including Safed and Hebron.
Again, the British Administration made no effort to prevent the violence and, after it began, the British did nothing to protect the Jewish population. After six days of mayhem, the British finally brought troops in to quell the disturbance. By this time, virtually the entire Jewish population of Hebron had fled or been killed. In all, 133 Jews were killed and 399 wounded in the pogroms.
After the riots were over, the British ordered an investigation, which resulted in the Passfield White Paper. It said the “immigration, land purchase and settlement policies of the Zionist Organization were already, or were likely to become, prejudicial to Arab interests. It understood the Mandatory’s obligation to the non-Jewish community to mean that Palestine’s resources must be primarily reserved for the growing Arab economy....”This, of course, meant it was necessary to place restrictions not only on Jewish immigration but on land purchases

You see the British always had Arab interests before it had (if it had) any Jewish interests and it always placated the interests of the Arabs over the Jews that were already living there.

Oh and about those Jewish ‘terrorist” organisations. Well first off they were an extreme minority which was not supported by the majority of Jews and secondly they tried to only target military and terrorists and not civilians.

The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.
A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.
Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties. In fact, the plan was to warn the British so they would evacuate the building before it was blown up. Three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.
On July 22, 1946, the calls were made.[b] The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.
In contrast to Arab attacks against Jews, which were widely hailed by Arab leaders as heroic actions, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing of the King David.
For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.

The U.N. proposed partitioning Palestine into two states -- one Jewish, one Arab -- and the General Assembly voted in favor of that solution in November 1947.

The Arab majority in Palestine rejected the U.N. proposal. "The Jews were being offered 55 percent of Palestine when in fact they had owned only seven percent of the country," says Philip Mattar, editor of The Encyclopedia of the Palestinians. "Four-hundred-fifty thousand Palestinians were going to end up within the Jewish state, and they did not see any reason why they should go along with that kind of inequality, that kind of injustice."

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations voted with a 2/3 majority to partition western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.(1) The Jews were to be granted what appears on the map in blue. Over 75% of the land allocated to the Jews was desert. Desperate to find a haven for the remnants of European Jewry after the Holocaust, the Jewish population accepted the plan which accorded them a diminished state. The Arabs, intent on preventing any Jewish entity in Palestine, rejected it.(2)

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/IMAGES/PART.JPG
You see most of what the Jews were offered was pure uninhabited desert. The arabs were offered much more habitable land then were the Jews.

As for you encyclopaedia of the Palestinians statement, well that is simply not true for it was going to be Jews on one side and Arabs on the other for it was clear that at the time they could not get along. at least that’s what the British masters concluded Although again after Israel defeated an invading and attacking army they did in fact allow the Arabs that chose to stay, stay. And become citizens and in fact many did just that. That is not the policy of exclusion but more like inclusion!!!

the Arabs that were living there fled from the encouragement of their fellow Arab brethren (who made all sort of promises to them).

From NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html) transcrips:
SHUSTER: Three-quarters of a million Palestinians fled their homes during the war, initiating one of the most contentious debates between Jews and Palestinians. The Zionists and their supporters claimed -- and some still claim -- that the Arab governments ordered the Palestinians to leave.

Historian Howard Sachar says that is not true. yes and like I have said before. There are some revisionist historians out there. Howard sachar has brought no proof other then his mere opinion to the table here. A lot of credible historians for years have backed up what I brought down before as the factual account of the historical facts.. Most Jews believe and know what I wrote before to be true.

California Joe

09-29-2003, 07:47 PM

Aren't there any IDF websites? Jesus this is tedious.

IDFM203

09-29-2003, 07:59 PM

Aren't there any IDF websites? Jesus this is tedious.

Aren’t there any PALASTINIAN sites? Jesus this is tedious,

Listen I get you point. Heck I agree it is tedious. But I hope you get mine as well.

In most cases (not every but most) I am responding to Palestinian views from mainly Europeans and Canadians about this conflict. It is not me who in most cases posts the first post on this topic. I have every right to respond to when someone brings up this topic or in a post brings his Palestinian views to it.

If there weren’t these biased Palestinian views brought here about this conflict I wouldn’t post here my Israeli response to it. I mean I do have the right to respond here.

Shalom!!

He219

09-29-2003, 09:01 PM

That's quite a novel you wrote, idfm203. I'm sorry to hear that you think NPR is a radical leftwing Palestinian sympathizing propaganda tool of it's parton, the reactionary anti-Israeli Democratic lobby.
;)

However, the need to justify Israeli history with an interpretation claiming British instigation of violence against Woodstock-like peaceful Zionist flower-power settlers from attacks by blood-thirsty indigenous Palestinian savages seems rather - overbearing. It reads like the communist manifesto.....
;)

Nobody can justify Terrorism in any way. A phone call saying there is a bomb in a building is equally effective as a terror weapon than the bomb that killed the people in the King David Hotel. Hamas announcing they intend to bomb more busses certainly does not justify the act either.

Heck I agree it is tedious
It's like talking to a wall; You choose to see yourself as a victim without comprehending that you are infringing on indigenous peoples rights.

Before you copy a ten page quote from the Sharon's mission statement, understand my point:

The relevance to this threat is that Russian Snipers are using a 'right of return' for immigration to Israel while fighting with the IDF against an indigenous population prevented from invoking their own 'right of return'.

p-)

IDFM203

09-29-2003, 10:49 PM

That's quite a novel you wrote, idfm203. I'm sorry to hear that you think NPR is a radical leftwing Palestinian sympathizing propaganda tool of it's parton, the reactionary anti-Israeli Democratic lobby.
;)
listen stop putting words or insinuations into my mouth. I never commented on the democratic party. I dont care whose patron npr is. The fact is that they(npr)have a clear bias to one side and that has been extensively documented. I suggest you click on the link that I had provided to you. Its all there in plain English.

However, the need to justify Israeli history with an interpretation claiming British instigation of violence against Woodstock-like peaceful Zionist flower-power settlers from attacks by blood-thirsty indigenous Palestinian savages seems rather - overbearing. It reads like the communist manifesto.....
;) Nobody can justify Terrorism in any way. A phone call saying there is a bomb in a building is equally effective as a terror weapon than the bomb that killed the people in the King David Hotel. Hamas announcing they intend to bomb more busses certainly does not justify the act either.
No I am not justifying viloence or terrorism. I am just putting things in its proper perspective. You make statements like “the Zionists in Palestine turned on the British. Underground Jewish groups began to attack the British army -- and the Palestinians.” As if the British were innocent and benevolent rulers who were just there along with the “peaceful” Arabs (who at that time were not known as the Palestinians) and it was the “evil” Jews who disrupted this whole synergy.

That is simply false and I brought down concrete proof to show that.

Now I said those Jewish groups were small and not supported by most of the indigenous Jewish population unlike the Arab terror groups that were in fact supported by most of the Arab population, with I might add, the British seal of approval and support.

And lastly those extreme and small groups in general did not target civilians while the Arabs did.
But again this is not justifying anything, just putting things in its proper perspective.

Heck I agree it is tedious
It's like talking to a wall; You choose to see yourself as a victim without comprehending that you are infringing on indigenous peoples rights. no I didn’t choose to see my self as a victim, that was thrust upon me by Arabs and Palestinians that no matter what is offered to them will fight to see the whole Israel destroyed. That battle has been going on for over fifty years now!!

I don’t want to infringe on any body. I want peace and security. That is all I want. If the majority of Palestinians were willing to live side by side and make that effort in concrete actions and not just the token photo op sayings (which amount to nothing) things would be different but it is clear that a lot of them don’t, no matter what, want to see that happen. The facts on the ground over the years prove that to be true. But of course you dont see that in your blind bias against Israel or anything that it does in its defence. ( [the event=your response to it]Israel responds to an attack= Israel’s fault……….blah blah blah……………Sharon orders the army to go after and only target terrorists in response =Sharon war criminal………… blah blah blah…. Suicide bomber kills twenty innocent man women and children=Evil settlers blah blah blah…..)

Before you copy a ten page quote from the Sharon's mission statement, understand my point: oh but of course anything that Israel’s elected leader says must be false. In essence most of what Israelis say or do must be false. I mean most Israelis support him so in essence we are all liars. A lot of Israelis believe in what I brought down. I mean that is the historical record notwithstanding these new revisionist historians with their views. Oh and of course the Arabs say differently so they must be right.

I mean heck even “the holy” (literally by some )npr says so, so it must be true……………….. ;) :| :|

The relevance to this threat is that Russian Snipers are using a 'right of return' for immigration to Israel while fighting with the IDF against an indigenous population prevented from invoking their own 'right of return'. p-) No, the indigenous Jewish population is defending themselves against another indigenous population (the Palestinians or at least some of them) that at one time refused to share the land with their fellow indigenous jews who were both living under British occupation and instead tried to kill all of the other indigenous population (the jews) and after being defeated has tried for the past fifty years to still achieve that allusive goal.

No, right of return means that these Arabs that willingly fled after they and their brethren attacked the Jewish people, now want to go back and live there in place of the Jewish people. I mean its like you are asking us to voluntarily commit national suicide. Oh and next time you talk about right of return, have a European do it. I mean it is quite comical to be lectured by someone whose on land that he’s on right now, was land that his nation took from the Indians (and killed and slaughtered them) and the Mexicans.

Now Israel has one tiny nation and every Jew is entitled to a right of return to that tiny nation. The Arabs have twenty-three nations. They would have had twenty four if they were willing to share the land with the Jews there, but they refused so its their refusal and subsequent invasion and attacks and resulting defeat and then their voluntary feeling (for Israel did grant citizenships to those that wished to not flee and stay) that forfeits their right of return. I mean there were equal or more Jews that were FORCED out and not fled like the Arabs, that were kicked out of Arab countries. I don’t hear you talk about that. But of course you don’t concern yourself with those Jews.

Lastly stop with your condescending attitude with your “its like talking to a wall” comment. Believe me you are not alone in that feeling. I guess the difference between your feeling and mine is that with mine I have lived and experienced the realities of what we are talking about where you have not. So you go off with your npr and your feeling, I will go on defending what I have seen or what I have experienced first hand or what my fellow brethren have experienced first hand on a daily basis.

Shalom!! :D

Russian Texan

09-30-2003, 12:45 AM

Jewish sniper in the Russian army - HAHAHA. Jewish sniper in Chechnya, in actual combat - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. People, you have to be russian to fully appreciate how rediculous it sounds. It sounds similar to "Jewish coal miner" or "Jewish steel plant worker". Just go to any site that has Chechen War pictures and tell me how many jewish looking faces you see there, then read lists of KIA and tell me how many jewish names you see. In Russia jews are only involved in areas where people can be screwed and money made. The only possible position for the jew in the Russian military would be "commander of the rear storage base". Granted I'm generalizing and I'm sure that history knows plenty of brave Israeli warriors and by no means I want to offend their memory but Jew on the frontlines in Chechnya, give me a break...

Next thing we know there will be Jewish "Spetsnaz"

I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

fred_engles

09-30-2003, 01:45 AM

While it's true that there aren't very many Jews in the Russian army (any more), and that a Jewish sniper in Chechnya would be a rare find,

In Russia jews are only involved in areas where people can be screwed and money made.
is way over the line.

StarvingStudent47

09-30-2003, 01:46 AM

Getting back to the main topic here...

I still don't see what the big deal is. Here in the United States, if someone becomes a naturalized citizen (in other words, immigrates here and applies for citizenship), they are a FULL CITIZEN. They have all the rights of a full citizen, including the right to serve in the military. Military service is open to all citizens, not just born citizens. Yet people are freaking out because Israel has the exact same policy.

Let's say a 22-year-old Russian moved to the United States. They applied for citizenship and were naturalized as a US citizen. They then enlisted in the USMC. Would we call them a "mercenary"? Of course not!!! We'd call them a "Marine."

It's just that simple. So what. No big deal.

By the way, Russian Texan wins my award for "dumbest post of the day" for his great statement

In Russia jews are only involved in areas where people can be screwed and money made.

Saranof

09-30-2003, 12:16 PM

IDFM203

09-30-2003, 12:59 PM

No, right of return means that these Arabs that willingly fled after they and their brethren attacked the Jewish people...[/b].

You mean AFTER you took more land than the UN gave you? :roll:
After you put the ones who stayed in huge camps?
After you started an aparteid system?

:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: (I guess I only continue to bother here is because I feel somewhat beholden to my sigline, especially the one in red)

No, AFTER the Arabs attacked the Jews that were there in order to KILL THEM ALL. :roll:
The land that the Jews got after they defeated that invading onslaught is Jewish land, that is fair in a war that was thrust upon them. All the UN did was draw a line in the map giving mostly uninhabited desert land to the Jews and mostly habited land to the Arabs.

No, Jews didn’t put them in camps. It was their Arab brethren that forced them in camps AFTER they and their brethren attacked and lost. Those that chose to stay in Israel were granted Israeli citizenship and have better lives then most other Arabs in the middle east.

What apartied system?!? I mean when you have a large portion (notice I didn’t say all) of the population that wants to see you (Israel) destroyed no matter what is offered to them and attacks it (Israel) on a daily bases, it is only conscionable that you take steps to defend your self. That is the threat that Israel faces. It has every right to defend itself.

ArmoredDov_D9

09-30-2003, 01:04 PM

StarvingStudent47

09-30-2003, 06:29 PM

You mean AFTER you took more land than the UN gave you? :roll:
After you put the ones who stayed in huge camps?
After you started an aparteid system?

As others have said, this is just plain not factually correct. This isn't an issue of "bias" or "perspective." The fact is, the Arabs who LEFT in 1948 were placed in camps BY OTHER ARABS. The ones who STAYED were not placed in camps by ANYONE.

That is a huge distinction you're repeatedly ignoring.

He219

09-30-2003, 09:48 PM

I understand that some Israelis feel VERY defensive at comments indicating Zionist duplicity. Indeed, Saranof's remarks are poignant criticism.

The fact is, the Arabs who LEFT in 1948 were placed in camps BY OTHER ARABS.
I respect your views, StarvingStudent47. However, why do Israelis believe the Arabs FLED in 1948? Was it some spontaneous voluntary mass migration to make way for the Zionists, resulting in 'other Arabs' placing them in camps?

Perhaps Israelis condone collective punishment through exile of ordinary Palestinians for resistance by militant Arabs to the unilateral formation of an Israeli State within regions they inhabited during Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948?

Do you deny documented (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407072.htm) events in Jaffa, Lydda and Rainleh as an example of civilian expulsions, or do you really think indigenous Palestinians voluntarily placed themselves into refugee camps surrounding the Israeli State?

;)

IDFM203

10-01-2003, 01:18 AM

However, why do Israelis believe the Arabs FLED in 1948? Was it some spontaneous voluntary mass migration to make way for the Zionists, resulting in 'other Arabs' placing them in camps? We believe that because that is the historical fact. Not some new version that you read in npr or other new revisionist historians. Listen Israel did not put anyone in camps because after they defeated the invading Arab onslaughts, it offered those that stayed to become citizens. In fact thousands took that offer and are living in Israel as Israeli citizens and they are NOT in camps.
Here I will repost a snippet of my last post which you termed a novel.
How did this exodus come about? In 1948, on the day of the proclamation of the State of Israel, five Arab armies invaded the new country from all sides. In frightful radio broadcasts, they urged the Arabs living there to leave, so that the invading armies could operate without interference. They could return after the expected quick victory in that "holy war," get their property back -- and that of the Jews. Things turned out differently. The invading armies were defeated. Those who had left became refugees -- people without a country. Those who stayed, and their children, are full-fledged citizens of the State of Israel.

Perhaps Israelis condone collective punishment through exile of ordinary Palestinians for resistance by militant Arabs to the unilateral formation of an Israeli State within regions they inhabited during Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948? wow what world are you living in?!? geeeeeez :bash: :bash:
at that time there wasn’t mere extremists and militants and then the general population. No, the whole or most of the Arab world including most of the Arab inhabitants of Israel (or Palestine as some of you call it) was caught up in this furor to unleash on the Jews. Five Arab countries as well as the Arabs that were living in Israel attacked together. Those that didnt join in the fight that they and their brethren were starting, fled. Period!

Secondly Israel didn’t exile anyone. Again those that chose to stay in Israel did so and become full fledged citizens that were NOT placed in camps, while those that didn’t ended up in camps that was forced on them by their fellow arab brethren that refused to open up their countries to them after they had promised them that they would. I mean on top of the Arabs that israel accepted, it also took in the over 800,000! Jews that were expelled from Arab lands. The Arabs wouldn’t do the same for their fellow brethren especially after they attacked and promised them that they would.

He219

10-01-2003, 01:06 PM

He219 wrote:

Was it some spontaneous voluntary mass migration to make way for the Zionists, resulting in 'other Arabs' placing them in camps?

idfm203 wrote:

that is the historical fact.
rofl

In frightful radio broadcasts, they urged the Arabs living there to leave, so that the invading armies could operate without interference. They could return after the expected quick victory in that "holy war," get their property back -- and that of the Jews. Things turned out differently. The invading armies were defeated. Those who had left became refugees -- people without a country. Those who stayed, and their children, are full-fledged citizens of the State of Israel.

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

at that time there wasn’t mere extremists and militants and then the general population.

Now I said those Jewish groups were small and not supported by most of the indigenous Jewish population
I see, all Arabs who Fled were guilty. Jewish extremists were few, but ALL Arabs are guilty...
:roll:

Those that didnt join in the fight that they and their brethren were starting, fled. Period!
But that contradicts this statement:

it offered those that stayed to become citizens.
Are you familiar with expulsions (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407072.htm) of civilians in Jaffa, Lydda and Rainleh?

Israel didn’t exile anyone
I guess they just don't let Palestinian refugees back while Russian Snipers are allowed to immigrate....

I mean on top of the Arabs that israel accepted, it also took in the over 800,000! Jews that were expelled from Arab lands.

The 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/arabjewtoc.html) has suffered horrible persecution since that time, particularly as the Zionist drive for a state intensified.

The Iraqi Jewish Community (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html) was the most vibrant of many within Arab/Islamic culture. You see no connection with the establishment of Zionism in an Israeli State, the 'expulsion' of Palestinian refugees from Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948 and the corresponding 'expulsion' of Jews from ancient Arab/Islamic communities?
;)

IDFM203

10-01-2003, 02:46 PM

idfm203 wrote:
that is the historical fact.
rofl yes its been clear to me already that you laugh at historical facts. History and facts or not something that you comprehend very well. these are the historical facts…get it?!?

Ok here are some things, which back up the historical facts that I have brought down. (Note that most of the sources are Arabic and that most of it is from that time. (Before revisionist history sets in as we see from your statements)

Here is some of THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.

And indeed thousands and thousands of arabs chose to stay and in fact are Israeli citizens and were not expelled!!

Now for what the Arabs said and did…………

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
-by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

"The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
- Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948

"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." (by their Arab brethren)
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25

The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31

I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
-Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 195

Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948

"The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews"
-Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953

"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa.""
-Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
-Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14

"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948

"...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country."
The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48

" The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]

"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957

One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000, http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0001/letters.html

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest." first of all, the bbc one sided bias against Israel has been clearly documented. Secondly this lie either by you are by the bbc is in clear contrast of the historical facts as I have outlined to you above, from mainly Arab sources!!!! Lastly just because the bbc allegedly didn’t pick up anything doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. bbc picking up something or not, doesn’t constitute any factual proof to anything.

Oh and all this doesn’t include newspaper warnings to leave or sermons in the mosques or in the streets.

at that time there wasn’t mere extremists and militants and then the general population.

Now I said those Jewish groups were small and not supported by most of the indigenous Jewish population I see, all Arabs who Fled were guilty. Jewish extremists were few, but ALL Arabs are guilty...
:roll: what does ALL guilty have to do with anything. Fact is that those Jewish groups WERE NOT SUPPORTED BY MOST JEWS while the militants and the extremists WERE SUPPORTED BY MOST ARABS AT THE TIME.

Boy it is only you who is saying ALL here. No, I am historically correct by saying most. Where indeed most of the Arabs at the time did support the killing of most of the Jews.

Israel didn’t exile anyone
I guess they just don't let Palestinian refugees back while Russian Snipers are allowed to immigrate.... no, Israel allows those that recognise and obey the laws of the state to live there. Most Palestinians don’t recognise Israel nor its laws. No country in the world would let into its borders large portions of a population who didn’t recognise the state or its laws.

Now Israel has a right of return for Jews and rightfully so. I have already gone over how the Arabs have forfeited that right based on them initiating a war to exterminate most Jews and then fleeing after their leaders false promises after their failure to win that war.

Besides, again there are around a million Arab Israeli citizens in Israel who do recognise Israel so they are allowed to live there.

[color=darkred]I mean on top of the Arabs that israel accepted, it also took in the over 800,000! Jews that were expelled from Arab lands

The Iraqi Jewish Community (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html) was the most vibrant of many within Arab/Islamic culture. You see no connection with the establishment of Zionism in an Israeli State, the 'expulsion' of Palestinian refugees from Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948 and the corresponding 'expulsion' of Jews from ancient Arab/Islamic communities?
;) no, I see a connection with the Arab states trying to rid all of the middle east of any Jewish presence. I see a connection with the Arab states failing to rid all of the Jews in Israel so then turning and acting their revenge on their own Jewish populations. They were determined to expel Jews no matter what and they accomplished that.

Now besides all that I brought down it is important to repeat that over a million Arabs are Israeli citizens. Israel made clear that all those that wished to stay will be granted Israeli citizenship and that is exactly what happened. I mean if they were expelling the Arabs why would they keep those that wished to stay?!?. I mean it is a fact that some Arabs (at the time thousands and thousands of them) stayed and in fact did become citizens. If Israel wanted to expel the Arabs it would have not allowed any to stay.

He219

10-01-2003, 08:07 PM

idfm203 wrote:

History and facts or not something that you comprehend very well.
You must be referring to your own sugar-coated interpretation of events arising from the displacement of indigenous peoples that established the 'lebensraum' to excercise the exclusionary 'right of return' you so dearly promote. Concordantly, If you feel that it was 'rightfully so', shouldn't all Jews then be obligated to relocate to Israel? The truth is that the world is a better place through integration.

Over the past two decades younger historians in Israel have argued, using declassified government papers, that in fact Zionist military operations caused the Palestinians to flee. There is now some agreement on this greatest of controversies, between traditional Zionist historians and the so-called revisionists. There was a good deal of intimidation and even terrorization here and there, particularly along the coastal plain area that was coveted by the Jews. They were terrified by the shooting, by the bombardment.NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html)

I am not purporting to be the revisionist historian here, but did quote sources that you very much wish to discredit. Remember that it was you who made the following allegation....

In frightful radio broadcasts, they urged the Arabs living there to leave
....without any reference. I cited BBC and United States radio monitoring records that indicate no 'frightful' urging to leave and you recuse me of lacking historical truths.
:roll:

No Arab government was ordering these people to flee. On the contrary, they were ordering them to stay put, under no circumstances to give over their territory to the Jews. It is a myth to assume that these people left voluntarily.NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html)

In fact it is you that is attempting so desperately to scrape the bottom of the quote barrel to promote your antagonistic connotation.

I am fully aware of the Israeli right to defend itself, and also of approximately one-million Israeli Arabs living in an atmosphere of prejudice and cynicism by police as the Orr Commission (http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Arabs+react+to+Orr+report&intcategoryid=1) found. And unlike your previous assertion, I am also quite aware of Jewish populations that were 'kicked out' of other countries and have taken a particular interest in the Jewish communities of Iraq that thrived prior to the advent of Zionism.

You must remember that there are always two sides to history. Even while the former Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin al-Husseini and his followers ordered (http://www.lionstale.org/feb01/o-peaceprocess.html) all Palestinians to leave during the 30's, the 'ethnic cleansing' that acutally occured was the result of Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948. Many references have been made that the ethnic demographic composition in Israel is intended to preserve the integrity of a majority Jewish State, and so it was in 1948 that the few remaining Arabs were allowed to become citizens.

In a speech addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947:
"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." - David Ben-Gurion
(Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176 & Benny Morris p. 28)

"After attacking Lydda [later called Lod] and then Ramla, .... What would they do with the 50,000 civilians living in the two cities ..... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution .... and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endangered the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward.

Ben-Gurion would repeat the question: What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out! [[b]garesh otem in Hebrew]. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook".
- Yitzhak Rabin
(Soldier Of Peace, p. 140-141 & Benny Morris, p. 207) .

"Great Suffering was inflicted upon the men taking part in the eviction action. [They] included youth-movement graduates who had been inculcated with values such as international brotherhood and humaneness. The eviction action went beyond the concepts they were used to. There were some fellows who refused to take part. . . Prolonged propaganda activities were required after the action . . . to explain why we were obliged to undertake such a harsh and cruel action."
- Yitzhak Rabin interview (censored in Israeli publications) by David Shipler from the New York Times on October 22, 1979:
(Simha Falpan, p. 101)

Time favors the ethical interpretation of history. It is only natural that the truth is surpressed to promote Zionism itself. That NPR quote only becomes stronger when one realizes that actual events surrounding the cause was a combination of fear, fighting and expulsions that led to the exiling of Palestinian refugees (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=refugee).

That is all...
p-)

IDFM203

10-01-2003, 11:07 PM

idfm203 wrote:
History and facts or not something that you comprehend very well.
You must be referring to your own sugar-coated interpretation of events hey I haven’t sugar coated anything. I have brought you a whole litany of credible sources even a large amount of Arab sources that
back up my claims.

All you have done is to show me quotes from famous revisionist historians like benny morris and David Shipler or you bring me links from sources like NPR and the BBC which have a clear and documented bias against Israel. (I have shown you links to where some of their falsehoods have been clearly documented).

You must be referring to your own sugar-coated interpretation of events Arising from the displacement of indigenous peoples that established the 'lebensraum' to excercise the exclusionary 'right of return' you so dearly promote. Concordantly, If you feel that it was 'rightfully so', shouldn't all Jews then be obligated to relocate to Israel? The truth is that the world is a better place through integration. you forget who started this war. The Jews didn’t invade and attack to expel anyone. No, the Arabs invaded on mass in their effort to do just that. it was the Jews that fought back that defeated this onslaught. Again they offered those that wished to stay to become citizens which a lot did. offering and accepting Arabs as citizens is not a sign of a country expelling a people!!!!

As for integration. Heck I am all for that on principle. I really do wish we could live together but that is not what most of the Arabs want or ever wanted. Up until 1948, the Jews were willing to live with the Arabs but the Arabs refused so the UN drew a line and even that they refused and then they attacked to kill most of the Jews there.

When I say rightfully so I don’t mean it as a commandment that all Jews must go, No what I am saying is that all Jews have the right to go if they so choose to do so.

As a religious Jew, I believe that commandment only comes into play when the messiah comes which we Jews believe he has not come yet.

Over the past two decades younger historians in Israel have argued, using declassified government papers, that in fact Zionist military operations caused the Palestinians to flee. There is now some agreement on this greatest of controversies, between traditional Zionist historians and the so-called revisionists. There was a good deal of intimidation and even terrorization here and there, particularly along the coastal plain area that was coveted by the Jews. They were terrified by the shooting, by the bombardment.NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html)

I am not purporting to be the revisionist historian here, but did quote sources that you very much wish to discredit. Remember that it was you who made the following allegation.... . No I stand by my statement of where you have quoted known revisionist historians. You are a revisionist if you believe what a revisionist says.

I listed a whole bunch of sources and different opinions from a variety of people which contradict what you have brought down from the “left’s holy grail”, the npr. It makes much more sense that the Arabs that said those statements that I brought down were true and factual and that they weren’t lying for why in the world would an Arab lie about something that goes against their aspirations and dreams, though it makes all the sense in the world why the Arabs are lying about it now.
With the Jews you cant accuse them of lying for the facts on the ground dispute that for if they wanted to expel the Arabs they would not have accepted thousands of them as citizens!!!.

Now lets get one point clear. Besides all the Arabs fleeing because of the Arab announcements to do so, of course some of them fled because of fear of Israel but that is understandable when there is great confusion going on being that it is in middle of a war that was started by them and their fellow Arab brethren. I mean Israel made all sorts of declarations that they could stay but of course in middle of a war, in which the Jews were fighting for their survival it wasn’t like Jewish fighters in middle of the war would stop for a second in middle of a battle and war to jump all day with flowers and waving to the Arabs to stay for they were pretty occupied fighting this Arab onslaughts. But again all this doesn’t negate all the radio and newspaper and public sermons to leave by their fellow Arab brethren as I have brought down, which had the most effect on them leaving.

Here I will repost it again for obviously you haven’t read it. Its right there in plain English. This isnt npr or benny morris no this is, Abu Mazen, Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London), Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948, Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah, Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League, Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records, The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war,
(now these are all the Arab sources, this doesn’t include any non Arab source that have also documented this fleeing by the wishes of their Arab brethren)

Here is some of THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.

And indeed thousands and thousands of arabs chose to stay and in fact are Israeli citizens and were not expelled!!

Now for what the Arabs said and did…………

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
-by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

"The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
- Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948

"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." (by their Arab brethren)
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25

The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31

I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
-Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 195

Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948

"The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews"
-Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953

"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa.""
-Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
-Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14

"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948

"...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country."
The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48

" The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]

"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957

One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000,

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I am fully aware of the Israeli right to defend itself, and also of approximately one-million Israeli Arabs living in an atmosphere of prejudice and cynicism by police as the Orr Commission (http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Arabs+react+to+Orr+report&intcategoryid=1) found.
How the Israeli Arabs are treated in Israel is a whole other topic. I will not now fall for your bait to change and lose sight of this topic

So you admit that Israel has a million Arab citizens. Now how is that the behaviour of the Jews wanting to expel the Arabs?!? If they wanted to do that they could have not let a single arab become a citizen…your blind allegiance to your propaganda bull**** is clearly an obstacle to seeing this clear and sane point…oh well……the world has plenty of blind people and you just are another cog in that blind machine.

And unlike your previous assertion, I am also quite aware of Jewish populations that were 'kicked out' of other countries and have taken a particular interest in the Jewish communities of Iraq that thrived prior to the advent of Zionism.
yes and 800,00 of the Jews from Arab countries were expelled as the Arab countries took revenge for their defeat in not finishing the job in Israel.

Oh I know you are aware of it, but I am sure that you don’t really ever give it much thought. Your token concern for the Iraqi Jewish population is just that. A token concern!!

All Palestinians to leave during the 30's, the 'ethnic cleansing' that acutally occured was the result of Arab-Zionist fighting in 1948. Many references have been made that the ethnic demographic composition in Israel is intended to preserve the integrity of a majority Jewish State, and so it was in 1948 that the few remaining Arabs were allowed to become citizens.
Boy I thought you had gone over the edge before, you surprise me here with now going off a steeper one. What?!? Are you kidding me?!? Oh to preserve the integrity of the Jewish state we Jews don’t need to accept any Arabs for that. it is the Jewish state after all. And if we wanted to make it all jewish we could have done that. We didn’t!! facts on the ground prove that. No, the only reason why we took in thousands and thousands of Arabs (not a mere “some” as you so conveniently put it) is because we Jews are only interested in living in peace. Taking in Arabs is not the sign of war but it is the sign of peace.

(Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176 & Benny Morris p. 28)

aaahhhhhh the “great” benny morris. Boy I was waiting when you were going to trot this fool out. I mean you have already shown up with the usual suspects of npr and the bbc it was only natural for me to assume that the darling of the Palestinian propaganda movement (because he is a Jew!) would show up here. I guess I now all I have to wait is the predictable appearance of noam chumsky, which is sure to appear in you next post. Hey while your at it why don’t you bring Hitler and his book mien kopf (sp?) as a source about the Jews. You might as well…….

I bring you a whole list of quotes from Arab sources as well as numerous other sources and opinions and all you do is bring me authors that bring down “their” quotes of what someone said.

I don’t think you want me to put down a novel here again so I will put a link here to a site that documented some of benny morris clear falsehoods.

http://www.meforum.org/article/466

Time favors the ethical interpretation of history. It is only natural that the truth is surpressed to promote Zionism itself.
No, time clearly falsifies and changes historical facts as you have clearly shown. I have brought down direct quotes from arab sources at that time, that backs up my cliames. It would be inconceivable especially at that time that those Arab sources would make it all up when it is they that have very thing to lose by doing so.

That NPR quote only becomes stronger when one realizes that actual events surrounding the cause was a combination of fear, fighting and expulsions that led to the exiling of Palestinian refugees (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=refugee).

That is all...
p-) yes there was fear, yes there was fighting yes there was fleeing but there was not forced exile by the Jews. There was fear by all, fighting initiated by the arbs, fleeing by a portion of the arabs for the arabs that did not flee become citizens!!! That is not the act of a people (the jews) that wanted ot expel anther people!!!

Geeeeeez whats so hard to understand :bash: :bash:

(yeah I know b b b uuutt npr blah blah blah….npr blah blah blah….. np.etc etc…….the left “holy” npr………….)