Russian spetsnaz teams training(Alpha, Vityaz, Rus' etc.)

[Kingpin]

On some photos - exams for Red Beret - highest professional grade of spetsnaz

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/002.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/003.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/005.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/009.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/015.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/017.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/022.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/024.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/026.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/03.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/036.jpg


Full contact hand to hand combat against instructor during exams is actually not to show your hand-to-hand skills (instructor anyway better)but to show your wish to win, your purposefulness, moral fibre and other characterisics required for spetsnaz.

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/039.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/041.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/050.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/052.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/053.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/057.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/065.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/069.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/072.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/073.jpg

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/076.jpg

[DP.UK]

Am I right in thinking that amongst the varied Camo used by Russian forces is Brit DPM??

[warGOD]

Very, very nice pics!

I only wondered, one of the soldiers has a patch that says "Special Forces" in English! How come!

[Chris1]

Am I right in thinking that amongst the varied Camo used by Russian forces is Brit DPM??
No.

[Spine]

The soviets have a heap of different disruptive patterns.

[GazB]

Nice pics... especially the one with the Kypariss SMG.

[Kingpin]

Actually russian military have difficulties with camo standartisation. And additionaly soldiers allowed in some cases to buy some gear by themselves (with particular limitations).

That's why there is a lot of different camo on those guys.

This also concerns Special Forces sign on one soldier - i think he bought it in the shop (may be he is often meets with NATO guys ;) )

[glofs]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/017.jpg



Why the red dot?

[Kingpin]

Don't know exactly but can suppose that first reaction of terrorist on the appearence of this man will be shooting at the most bright spot on him, which in the same time is the most protected spot.

[ibstolidude]

what no pictures of standing back-flips and they come up shooting (hitting nothing but dirt and air)...
where is the dive through the flaming hoop of death...

[He219]

Excellent pic's!

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/072.jpg

What's that huge scope?

[Herrmannek]

NV

[Jack Mehoff]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/041.jpg

Special Forces? I didn't know special forces is Russian

[Seiyuuki]

On some photos - exams for Red Beret - highest professional grade of spetsnaz

There's different grade of spetsnaz?

[Dmitri]

Not really, I think its just an exam that any Spetsnaz soldier can take to earn the maroon beret, nobody has to, its just a mark of distinction, sort of like for any american soldier to be Ranger qualified, except different.

[earl]

Excellent pic's!

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/072.jpg

What's that huge scope?

It's a 1PN58. Anybody know if this can be used during the day? And what the reticule looks like?

[earl]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/001.jpg

theres more here:

http://www.bratishka.ru/gallery.php

[Dmitri]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/023.jpghttp://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/031.jpg
"Brotherhood of Maroon Berets
Vityaz"
http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/038.jpg
http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/043.jpghttp://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/047.jpg
http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/054.jpg

[IDFM203]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/023.jpg
http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/065.jpgI don’t mean this as an insult or what not. I am just honestly curious as to why Russian soldiers have these red and bluse striped undershirts.?!?

[Dmitri]

Don't know if its suppose to serve some purpose, but it is a long traditional part of the uniform... To me it actually looks good, especially the white and blue stripe one :lol:

[budanski]

Whats with spetsnaz using aviators helmets?

[GazB]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/022.jpg

Nice... SVDU bullpup SVD in use.

Regarding the red and white striped T Shirt it seems to show the spetsnaz are coming out. In the past Spetsnaz wore the same uniform as the airborne (naval spetsnaz wearing Soviet Naval Infantry.. or Marines uniforms). For Airborne soldiers the uniform has included a light blue Beret and a light blue and with striped T shirt, whereas the SNI had a dark blue and white striped T Shirt and a Black Beret. Now I guess the secret is out, though in combat I would guess that other uniforms or civilian clothes would be worn more often than the distinctive Red beret and red and white striped T shirt.

"Brotherhood of Maroon Berets
Vityaz"

Above suggests that Vityaz wear the red beret and red and white striped T Shirts only. Other units like Kretchet etc may have the same or different.

"It's a 1PN58. Anybody know if this can be used during the day? And what the reticule looks like?"

The 1PN58 can be used on many different types of weapons, including AKM, AK-74, RPK, PKM, RPG, SVD, and SA-7/-14/-16/-18. It can also be used on several new weapons like the VSS etc. There are a range of different reticules it can use often depending upon the weapon it is used with as it comes with different range scales and adjustment drums for the various different trajectories.
It can be used during the day with a pin hole in the front lens cover. Day time performance is said to be very similar to night time performance with the front cover off.

Has been superseeded by the 1PN93 series of 2+ gen and 3rd gen Image intensifiers.

[GazB]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/030.jpg

just noticed this on that site... looks like a PKM with a suppressor to me.
Interesting

"Whats with spetsnaz using aviators helmets?"

They aren't aviators helmets... they are riot helmets as shown in this pic with the visors attached.

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/023.jpg

[Dmitri]

Above suggests that Vityaz wear the red beret and red and white striped T Shirts only.
That is only those in Vityaz who are actually able to earn the maroon beret, but I guess there is plenty of them anyway. ;)

[baimer]

Earning the maroon beret takes part in entering exam. Recruter must fight against up to three veteran soldiers. After the fight is over and instructors decide that recruter has passed the exam, he recieve maroon beret immediately.

[Dennis G]

Anyone have photos of Russian SOBR?

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstvests.html <----Good site with Russian military gear.

this was a good read but its vary long. About the russian special forces.



The Degradation of Russia's Special Forces


By Stanislav Lunev

The more than unfortunate situation which characterizes the state of affairs in Russia's armed forces, which can in no way be said to have emerged from the state of virtually non-existent reforms, and are not capable, even in principle, of carrying out their task of guaranteeing the nation's security, has already affected even the elite units known as the special operations forces [in Russian, sily spetsialnogo naznacheniia, or spetsnazfor short]. Such units exist in Russia at the present time, not only in the army, but in all of the country's other "force ministries" as well. They are directly subordinate to the Russian president, and act on his orders or on the orders of other officials who have been given special authority by the Commander-in-Chief. And as has already happened more than once in recent years, they will be used by the Russian leadership to put pressure on political rivals and to achieve other goals rising out of a possible increase in tensions in the country.

There is a broad spectrum of such forces in Russia, ranging from the army, where dolphins and beluga whales, especially trained by specialists of the Defense Ministry's Scientific Research Center No. 172, serve as underwater saboteurs, to social structures worthy of the attentions of the Russian special services. (1) But the units which are of the greatest interest are those which enable Russia's rulers to achieve their political goals.

There are more than enough such units in Russia today. As the magazine Ogonek observed, if someone assumes that the Russian armed forces consist of only an army, a navy, and an air force, they are mistaken. (2) There are other, less visible, armed forces. There are the internal troops, the border troops, the railroad troops, Communications Ministry troops, armed units of the Federal Security Service (FSB), of the Federal Agency for Government Communications and Information (FAPSI), and Ministry of Emergency Situations troops. And almost each of these agencies have their own units or detachments which could be called elite.

There is also the General Staff's Main Intelligence Directorate's[GRU] spetsnaz, which the military men do not discuss. The security services' elite detachments--the anti-terrorist "Alfa"and "Vympel" units--are well known. The Ministry of Internal Affairs' special detachments are also well known--they specialize in fighting street disorders, organized crime, and terrorism. There is talk of creating a special border detachment. To make a long story short, there are about as many special detachments as there are agencies.

Whether or not a unit is "elite," according to the magazine, is defined, for the most part, by three things: by fulfilling a special function or mission distinct from that of the army as a whole, by its special equipment: material, technical, etc., and by the amount of money spent on the unit. All the rest--a special way of selecting personnel, special training--is secondary. In addition, service in such units is always considered prestigious and thus the spetsnaz has rarely experienced a shortage of people wishing to fill its ranks, either in Soviet or in post-Soviet times.

But if, before the end of 1991, this prestige was linked with a further career in the service, in recent years, it is defined by the fact that professionals who have been discharged from thespetsnaz can easily set themselves up in, or near, commercial structures. Only those who are especially gung-ho, or those who have not yet found a place outside the army, remain in the spetsnazunits. When their service is up, soldiers and officers in elite units, who have received high-class professional training, willingly leave the armed forces for civilian life, where all sorts of security firms and criminal organizations, who will pay them well for their knowledge, experience, and skill.

And spetsnaz veterans no longer shun contact with these structures and groups, where the pay for one day's work is higher than the monthly pay of a professional officer on active service. The ideological and moral reasons for not doing so no longer exist in today's Russia, and the "wild capitalism" fostered by the Russian authorities implies the simple principle that everything can be bought and sold.

The politicization of the army, wittingly or unwittingly implanted by the Kremlin regime in its desire to maintain itself in power, has removed the last moral and ethical limitations that had once been cultivated in elite military units. Thus, the spetsnazraid, which caused such a sensation in the summer, on one of the offices of the "Most" financial group in Moscow, (which supported the Russian president's potential rivals), directly demonstrated that elite Russian units can be used not only to achieve political goals, but also to attract financial benefits by putting pressure on political rivals of the ruling regime, or on people who simply do not declare their devotion to the Kremlin rulers regularly enough.

And the activity of these forces in Chechnya is not only a crime against their own people, but also against the spetsnaztroops themselves, who no longer understand either their place or their role in Russia's present system of security services. As the magazine Novoye Vremya noted, "in the absence of intellectual support, the president has to rely on force alone. But even this reliance is flimsy; the devotion of his henchman Grachev alone is not enough. The army, which they have resolutely refused to reform, is decaying before our eyes, and the other 'force structures' will not be far behind."

"Of all the possible 'moral' stimuli," the magazine stressed, "the soldier at battle has, perhaps, only one left: the desire to take revenge for fallen comrades. But this stimulus can only serve to degrade the army further, by turning it into just another 'illegal bandit formation.' A few days ago, the whole country could watch the story of the hostages who happened to survive the hell of Pervomaiskoye on their television sets, of how 'Federal' helicopters consciously and deliberately shot unarmed hostages, who were carrying wounded women on stretchers, at close range. Everyone heard what the hostage called our 'valiant soldiers,' time and time again: 'Animals!' Who would have the courage to take issue with him?" (3)

One example of the process which is taking place in the Russian special operations forces is the experience of a unit formerly more secret and less known to the public, which is now the most famous elite military unit--the "Alpha" antiterrorist detachment. It was created in 1974, when, in response to the wave of terrorist acts which had swept across most of the world and had hit Western Europe especially hard, a decision was made in the KGB to create special units to fight terrorism. In forming "Alfa," a thorough study was made of other countries' experience, most of all, of the American anti-terrorist teams, the British special SG-9 units, and similar formations in the Israeli Mossad.

Alpha brilliantly carried out both its antiterrorist mission as well as some other, completely opposite, functions, and quickly won authority as a special operations unit which was capable of much, which carried out the work entrusted to it in a professional way, and without losses to its own personnel. But this only lasted until the beginning of the 1990s, when in the storming of the television center in Vilnius [Lithuania], one member of Alpha was killed under mysterious circumstances. At that time, rumors circulated in the Soviet spetsnaz that he had refused to obey the order to attack and had been shot on the orders of the unit's commander, after which his corpse had been thrown into the television center captured by the Alpha men.

It is difficult to judge the truth of such rumors, but after the storming of the Vilnius television center, President Gorbachev, KGB Chairman Kryuchkov and other former Soviet leaders all denied having anything to do with Alpha's actions. So it turned out that Alpha had undertaken the storm of the television center without orders from anyone, that is, on their own authority, and losing one of their men to boot, who had died without any practical or political need for it.

Moreover, after paying their last respects to their fallen comrade in the KGB Club on Dzerzhinsky Square, Alpha members began to have serious doubts about whether or not it was right for the country's leadership to use them, not only for purposes which are suitable for professional antiterrorist organizations, but for political purposes as well. And already, in a few months, these doubts found practical confirmation in Alpha's demand, when it received a verbal order in August 1991 from the so-called "National State of Emergency Committee" (GKChP) to storm the Russian White House, to have that order in writing. Not a single member of the GKChP wished to soil his hands by signing such an order, and Alpha's subsequent refusal to storm the building virtually saved Boris Yeltsin and his supporters and permitted Mikhail Gorbachev to return to the Kremlin, albeit briefly.

The second time that Alpha tried to refuse to participate in the Kremlin leaders' political games was in October 1993, but this time, their luck ran out. When they again refused to storm the Russian White House with the Russian legislators barricaded inside, Alpha was "called on the carpet" by the president and faced with the choice: to come out either for or against the president, with "all the consequences which flow from that." Alpha decided to support the president in his "settling accounts"[razborka] with the parliament, and, using all sorts of weapons, took the Russian White House in several hours. After their storm, Muscovites began to call it the "Black House."

So although Alpha took the parliament building, it lost the trust of the president, because of its hesitation to attack. And since they were involved in the deaths of hundreds of defenders of the"Russian Black House," they lost the trust of Russian democratic forces, and that of society as a whole, as well. After this, the leaders, disillusioned with Alpha, began to move it further away from the capital, moved it under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD), and threw it into the various "hot spots" which abound in the territory of the present Russian Federation. And indeed, the activity of this unit, whose professionalism was once legendary, has not been all that successful.

Alpha didn't particularly distinguish itself in Budennovsk last summer, when Basayev's detachment succeeded, for various reasons, in disappearing without a hitch into the Caucasus mountains, while Alpha itself suffered substantial losses. True, as the Russian press pointed out, the unit which conducted the operation in Budennovsk was hardly the same Alpha which everybody knew from the August 1991 putsch. (4) After they were handed over, for reasons which are to this day inexplicable, to the MVD, out of a unit almost three thousand strong, only a handful stayed on to put on policemen's shoulderboards. And although Alpha was later transferred back to the GUO [the Main Protection Directorate], it turned out to have lost its military experience, its skill, and its traditions.

And it would be difficult to call Alpha's actions this January in Pervomaiskoye successful, where the number of losses among the hostages and the peaceful inhabitants of the village was several times greater than the number of fighters killed in Raduyev's band. True, Alpha suffered losses as well, but only by chance. When there was no longer anything left of the village of Pervomaiskoye, and the fighting was over, one Russian regular army soldier unintentionally hit a switch which launched his armored personnel carrier's "Grom"cannon. The shell blew up another armored vehicle, and its fragments landed on the Alpha team, as a result of which two Alpha men died, two were wounded, and one bruised. (5)

Today it is difficult to determine in which operations Alpha will have to participate in the near future, but it is already clear that together with carrying out its fundamental mission, it will have to participate in guaranteeing the safety of the coming political maneuvers, linked in particular with the presidential elections. What kind of participation this will be depends not on Alpha's members, but on the country's political leaders, who have now put Alpha back under their own direct control for a reason, subordinating it directly to the Federal Security Service. But to this day, Alpha remains the Russian special services' most effective antiterrorist unit, and has substantial capabilities to carry out the missions with which it is entrusted.

According to the Russian press, Alpha has about 200 universally trained fighters who have made it through a rigorous selection process, physical, psychological, and special training, who are able to master any kind of weapon and any form of land transportation.(6) To these men are added specialists in narrower professions, including snipers and the best shots with various weapons, specially trained frogmen, alpinists, rock climbers, psychologists, and, in recent times, hostage-negotiation specialists. This unit has no contract system; everyone passes through real military service in the military ranks from lieutenant to colonel. Incidentally, similar units exist in Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus, where individual Alpha units existed in Soviet times, and Russian special operations troops maintain professional and friendly relations with them.

Alfa first won international renown after the storming of Afghan president Hafizullah Amin's palace, in which it participated together with the anti-terrorist unit Vympel. The Vympel group was created in 1979 as the special operations unit of the KGB's First Main Directorate, and its first mission was to carry out special missions, to carry out military actions and sabotage abroad. The Vympel group was manned only by officers who knew two or three foreign languages, and it was said that they knew the maps of about thirty world capitals by heart.

After August 1991, Vympel was passed on from one Soviet, and later, Russian, security structure to another, and after October 1993, it was put under the MVD and thrown into the fight against organized crime. After that, 110 of the group's 180 officers applied for discharge so that they wouldn't have to take orders from police bureaucrats. With what was left of Vympel, the MVD leadership tried to create its own anti-terrorist unit, Vega, to fight nuclear terrorism. As a result of the latter's unprofessional efforts to neutralize terrorists in Mineralnye Vody (in the Northern Caucasus)on July 29, 1994, four hostages were killed.

At the same time, the KGB's main successor -- the predecessor of the present FSB, left without its own antiterrorist unit for about a year, began to create the so-called USO, or Special Operations Directorate. After Basayev's fighters' raid on Budennovsk last year, a few of the remnants of Vympel were returned to Russia's security system. And after last year's presidential decree on the formation of a so-called Antiterrorist Center in the FSB system, this organ began to coordinate or attempted to coordinate the antiterrorist efforts and capabilities of these disparate groups--USO, Alfa, and Vega.

In addition to the security forces' spetsnaz troops mentioned above, there is also the well-known Vityaz, the special operations forces of the MVD's special Dzerzhinsky division. It was formed on the eve of the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow, when the Soviet authorities feared the possible acts of "terrorists sent by the CIA." In distinction from Alpha and Vympel,this unit was staffed by soldiers who served for a fixed period[soldaty srochnoi sluzhby], who received excellent training in hand-to-hand combat and showed impressive mental toughness.Vityaz became well-known in October 1993 when the government used them in their military operations at the Ostankino television center. Arriving at the television center at the president's personal request, the Vityaz team physically annihilated virtually all the opposition supporters who tried to break into Ostankino,(and all the innocent bystanders who just happened to be in the battle zone) losing only one man in the process.

But the GRU's spetsnaz, about which the Russian press has only begun to write, remains little known, although its brigades, battalions, and companies exist in every military district. As the magazine Ogonek reported, the GRU's spetsnazis designed to carry out reconnaissance and sabotage activity on the enemy's territory. The army's spetsnaz' main missions are to destroy the command posts for the guidance of nuclear weapons and other especially important enemy installations. Acting in groups of five to ten people, the GRU's spetsnaz is able to act autonomously for days at a time. It is staffed by soldiers who serve for a fixed period, who go through special physical and psychological training, in which special emphasis is placed on mastering the main types of weapons, skill in radio communications ,and knowledge of the enemy's territory.

The GRU's special operations troops differ from airborne troops [desantniki] in the character of their mission. Airborne troops are, in essence, a special kind of infantry, which undertake military operations. The mission of the GRU's spetsnazis to carry out its orders secretly, without engaging in military operations--to search, to find, and to destroy. After Budennovsk, some people said that the only ones who could have coped with the situation would have been the GRU's spetsnaz. In fact, the GRU's special operations troops are trained to gather information and destroy. They are not trained to save hostages. (7)

And it is hard for someone who is the least bit familiar with the GRU's spetsnaz to disagree with the magazine's conclusion. The GRU's spetsnaz really is designed to destroy the enemy's command posts, the systems for guiding the enemy's armed forces and his weapons of mass destruction, and the physical elimination of the opposite side's military and political leadership. Which side is that? Whichever side the angry finger of the Kremlin points to, at any time it chooses.

As the press has noted in characterizing the situation in the Russian special operations forces, if anything has grown in the years of post-communist rule, it is the special services. (8)If all their berets were gathered in one place, the spectrum of colors would be enough to drive even an avant-garde artist out of his mind: black, blue, green, red. Special units of the MVD, the FSB, the GUO, the VDV [airborne troops], the GRU... the OMON, the RUOP [Regional Department to Protect the Public Order], the SOBR [Rapid Reaction Force], airborne battalions, marines, and other special units. Up to ten percent of their agencies' money is spent on maintaining them. And how have these special services earned this money in the fight against terrorism? In the words of the witnesses of the events in Budennovsk, local inhabitants, the numerous armed men showed a lack of professionalism noticeable even to the eyes of a civilian.

It is difficult to add anything else to that conclusion except that dragging the Russian special operations forces into the Kremlin leaders' political game will inevitably lead, if it has not already led, to the degradation not only of Russia's war machine, but even of those forces which could and ought to be used in the fight against terrorism--the greatest evil of the end of the twentieth century.

[kutter]

Whats with spetsnaz using aviators helmets?

As explained by GazB, its a riot/police helmet. Its called the Maska-1 and its titanium shell is designed to stop bullets up to 9mm calibre. With the mask fitted the helmet weighs a staggering 3.5 kg.

[Chet Mystery]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/065.jpg

Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?

[Trigger]

Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?

hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??

[SOG]

Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?

hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??

rofl

thanx for the pics man, spetnaz info and good pics always eluded me, nice to see the other side.

[ibstolidude]

Anyone have photos of Russian SOBR?


hey hey hey
be nice not all russians are drunk that is a terrible stereo-type!

many are sobr

[Trigger]

rofl —rimshot!

[Dennis G]

:) -I Just wanted to see if anyone had any up to date photos of SOBR(the russian CT unit.)



anyway came across some pics of these military miniatures they not real but I tought I would post them still. Some are vary good. anyone here collect them.


http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/7.jpg

Russian AFV crew

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/6.jpg

Russian AFV infantry

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/107.jpg

Anti-terrorism special group "A" ("Alfa") of FSB(ex-KGB) with silence assault rifle "Vintorez"

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/4.jpg

Anti-terrorism special group "A" ("Alfa") of FSB(ex-KGB) Budyonovsk operation

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/3.jpg

Anti-terrorism special group "A" ("Alfa") sniper. Budyonovsk operation

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/2.jpg

Anti-terrorism special group "A" ("Alfa") of FSB(ex-KGB) in action

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/106.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/93.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/101.jpg

Special force of Russian MIA "Vitjaz"

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/102.jpg

Special group of Russian MIA "SOBR"

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-08-1.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-08-2.jpg

Russian Airborne (Russia had or has the largest Airborne right some 100,000 or something strong?)





http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/91.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/92.jpg

Russian Airborne gunner

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-17front..jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/so1.jpg

Special group of Russian MIA "SOBR"

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/vt-f.jpg


http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-24.jpg


http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-26-1.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-26-2.jpg

Anti-terrorism special group" A"("Alfa") of FSB (ex-KGB)

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/120-32-1.jpg

Navy Spetsnaz

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/200-02-6%20.jpg

http://www.minisoldat.by.ru/200-02-7%20.jpg

[GazB]

"Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?"

"hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??"

The Soviets invented airborne units in the 1920s and 1930s.

The pin you are referring to has a parachute with two aircraft flying at the bottom. It is a parachuting badge with the standard airborne VDV forces and looks a bit like the bottom half of their shoulder patch.
(below far right)
http://www.russianstore.net/Data/insigna1.gif

[Jack Mehoff]

"Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?"

"hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??"

The Soviets invented airborne units in the 1920s and 1930s.

The pin you are referring to has a parachute with two aircraft flying at the bottom. It is a parachuting badge with the standard airborne VDV forces and looks a bit like the bottom half of their shoulder patch.
(below far right)


Let me break it down kiwi

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/041.jpg
^^^Why is this Russian dude has a "special forces" tab? I don't think "special forces" is part of Russian's vocabulary

This is US Army Special Forces aka Green Beret
http://www.vwip.org/images/insignia/special-forces.jpg



http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/065.jpg

^^^^This Russian soldier has the airborne badge on his RIGHT breast, very very similar to the US Army 82nd Airborne Division (AA)

http://www.pointvista.com/WW2GliderPilots/Insignia/82nd%20flag.jpghttp://www.bragg.army.mil/www-44md/img/airborne.gif

[Jack Mehoff]

"Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?"

"hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??"

The Soviets invented airborne units in the 1920s and 1930s.



Russia DID NOT invent airborne, Americans did. Don't you think the US military used the Wright brothers' invention of airplane as a potential weapon :bash: Learn your history son

http://www.worldwar2history.info/Army/elite/Airborne.html

http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/per.mitchell.html

I assumed you refer to "airborne" meaning you jump out of an airplane, right?

[Ratamacue]

No Jack, to my knowledge, the Russians were the first ones to implement parachuting in their military. I don't remember where I've seen that, but that's definitely what I remember.

[Jack Mehoff]

No Jack, to my knowledge, the Russians were the first ones to implement parachuting in their military. I don't remember where I've seen that, but that's definitely what I remember.



The largest elite unit was the airborne. The first practical plans for employing parachute troops in combat were conceived in the waning months of World War I by a U.S. aviation pioneer, Brigadier General William "Billy" Mitchell. Mitchell proposed outfitting troops of the 1st Division with a large number of machine guns and parachuting them behind the lines on the German-held fortress city of Metz. A ground attack would be coordinated with the paratrooper assault, known as a "vertical envelopment." But the war ended before Mitchell's innovative plans could be tried.

After the war, the concept of vertical envelopment was neglected in the United States. The Soviet Union, on the other hand, pushed ahead with large-scale airborne exercises in the 1930s. Germany took notice of the Soviet exercises and began building its own airborne program, made up of paratroopers and infantry that would ride in gliders.

With the outbreak of war, the Germans successfully used paratroopers to seize critical military objectives in Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium, where a small band of paratroopers and glidermen seized Fort Eben Emael, which many had considered impregnable.

[Henk]

idfm203 wrote
I don’t mean this as an insult or what not. I am just honestly curious as to [color=darkred]why Russian soldiers have these red and bluse striped undershirts.?!?


The russians are wearing those striped shirts (Telnyashka) because when paratroops where founded they were part of the navy,(white blue stiped) the rest is ofspring from those striped shirts.
Thanks for the great pics.
By the way can someone tell me if the unarmed combat they are exersising is systhema?
_________________________
The mind is the best weapon

[Saranof]

"Arn't those US Army Parachutist wings over his right chest pocket?"

"hmmm, U.S. Jump wings....'Special Forces' in English....Spetzsofters??"

The Soviets invented airborne units in the 1920s and 1930s.

The pin you are referring to has a parachute with two aircraft flying at the bottom. It is a parachuting badge with the standard airborne VDV forces and looks a bit like the bottom half of their shoulder patch.
(below far right)
http://www.russianstore.net/Data/insigna1.gif

The badge on the far right..does anyone know anything about it?
I've got one, so I kinda wanna know who might have had it

[baimer]

The badge on the far right..does anyone know anything about it?
I've got one, so I kinda wanna know who might have had it

You were already told about the badge on far right, it's soviet airborne. The VDV. ( Air Landing Troops)
May be you meant on the far left, the red one? It's regular infantry.

[Ichhabe]

Correct me if I'm wrong here: Those shirt started out in the Paratroop-regiments. Those shirts are white and blue.

As in any other army, when something is cool, everybody want's it. Were you before could see who was a para, cause he had that shirt, now almost alll soldiers had it.

Now I'm on to qualified guessing. Maybe they now make those shirt with different coloured stripes, so the different units has their own shirt to be proud of?!?

It seems like now the Russian "special forces" have adapted the red/white one.

Keep on looking for other colours. :D

[Saranof]

The badge on the far right..does anyone know anything about it?
I've got one, so I kinda wanna know who might have had it

You were already told about the badge on far right, it's soviet airborne. The VDV. ( Air Landing Troops)
May be you meant on the far left, the red one? It's regular infantry.


Oh yeah, so I was woot
I was told it was spetznatz something..hmm..

[baimer]

Correct me if I'm wrong here: Those shirt started out in the Paratroop-regiments. Those shirts are white and blue.

They started out in Navy Landing Troops, couz' those guys were recruted from the Navy seamen. They wear black coats and white-blue striped shirt.
Later, after WWII, their uniform have changed, they got black berets and white-black striped shirts. The soviet paratroops got blue berets and kept their white-blue striped shirts. In 1980 soviets had 8 paratroops divisions and 3 navy landing troops divisions. Most of the soviet 'spetsnaz' (special assignement) forces derived from landing troopers that's why they wear striped shirts even today. p-)

[richardben23]

http://image.pathfinder.com/time/europe/magazine/20011015/011015alpha.jpg

[BiZ]

Whats with spetsnaz using aviators helmets?

Probably the same reason SEALs can be seen with them on occasion....

[GazB]

"^^^^This Russian soldier has the airborne badge on his RIGHT breast, very very similar to the US Army 82nd Airborne Division (AA)"

Similar to but different... when was the 82nd Airborne formed?

The Soviets were dropping 2,000 odd troops in exercises in 1935... what were the 82nd airborne doing then?

http://photofile.ru/photos/photofile/605718DRH.jpg

The arm patch above shows a parachute with two aircraft... the "Jump badge" the Ru Spec Op chap is wearing has the same symbol with a similar leaf to the US badge.


Learn your history son




"But the war ended before Mitchell's innovative plans could be tried.

After the war, the concept of vertical envelopment was neglected in the United States. The Soviet Union, on the other hand, pushed ahead with large-scale airborne exercises in the 1930s."


Hmm, so some American thinking about something... but not actually doing anything about it means that Americans did it first... that is really funny.


Germany took notice of the Soviet exercises and began building its own airborne program, made up of paratroopers and infantry that would ride in gliders.


Wasn't just the Germans taking note... the British and Americans also saw that it wasn't just a pipe dream and could be a reality.

[Jack Mehoff]

The largest elite unit was the airborne. The first practical plans for employing parachute troops in combat were conceived in the waning months of World War I by a U.S. aviation pioneer, Brigadier General William "Billy" Mitchell. Mitchell proposed outfitting troops of the 1st Division with a large number of machine guns and parachuting them behind the lines on the German-held fortress city of Metz. A ground attack would be coordinated with the paratrooper assault, known as a "vertical envelopment." But the war ended before Mitchell's innovative plans could be tried.

After the war, the concept of vertical envelopment was neglected in the United States. The Soviet Union, on the other hand, pushed ahead with large-scale airborne exercises in the 1930s. Germany took notice of the Soviet exercises and began building its own airborne program, made up of paratroopers and infantry that would ride in gliders.

With the outbreak of war, the Germans successfully used paratroopers to seize critical military objectives in Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium, where a small band of paratroopers and glidermen seized Fort Eben Emael, which many had considered impregnable

GazB,

Your reading comprehension ability isn't my concern. Do you know the difference between INVENTING and IMPLEMENTING?

Seem like you don't agree because.....

GazB wrote:
The Soviets invented airborne units in the 1920s and 1930s.

Soviet didn't invent anything except TOOK the idea from an american General Mitchell




GazB wrote:
Hmm, so some American thinking about something... but not actually doing anything about it means that Americans did it first... that is really funny.


Go to www.google.com and USE it, LOVE it. So far you haven't prove anything except words from your mouth. Honestly, I rather trust the resources from the internet than YOU

http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/per.mitchell.html

http://www.worldwar2history.info/Army/elite/Airborne.html

[GazB]

"Soviet didn't invent anything except TOOK the idea from an american General Mitchell "

Well if thinking about something is the same as inventing it then Michaelangelo invented the tank and airborne forces and the Helicopter and submarines and many many other things. I doubt very much that the Soviets knew who Mitchell was let alone what dribble he was spouting in WWI.

That is wonderful... the first person ever to talk about lasers invented lasers... those poor fools who spend years, and huge amounts of money, they were wasting their time... because some science fiction writer invented the "idea" of a death ray.

"Go to www.google.com and USE it, LOVE it. So far you haven't prove anything except words from your mouth. "

Prove what... I couldn't care less if you thought America invented everything.

"Do you know the difference between INVENTING and IMPLEMENTING?"

Yes, and inventing an idea is so much harder than actually working out how to actually do it... finding problems and coming up with solutions... then actually doing it for real...

"Mitchell. Mitchell proposed outfitting troops of the 1st Division with a large number of machine guns and parachuting them behind the lines on the German-held fortress city of Metz."

Obviously the Soviets listened to what he had to say... the paintings at the Ryazan Airborne school show standard rifle armed units with the normal number of MGs as issued per unit during drops in 1935... obviously they copied Mitchell to the letter...

[REMOV]

Well if thinking about something is the same as inventing it then Michaelangelo invented the tank and airborne forces and the Helicopter and submarines and many many other things.It was Leonardo da Vinci, GazB, not Michaelangelo Buonarroti ;)

http://www.museoscienza.org/english/leonardo/img/carroarmato_big.jpg
http://www.museoscienza.org/english/leonardo/img/vite_aerea_big.jpg

[JunglistSoldier]

I would not want to face these guys in combat.

[GazB]

"It was Leonardo da Vinci, GazB, not Michaelangelo Buonarroti"

Of course it was... silly mistake... thanks Remov... :-)

[Russian Texan]

Pictures above is the exact reason why I consider Russian special forces to be one of the best if not the best special forces in the world. Delta, Rangers, Marine recon, SAS and such, they all deserve respect praise and credit, but Spetsnaz (spetsnaz VDV and especially GRU) is in its own league. Some people would say that all that running through fire, jumping out of trucks at 40mph, breaking burning bricks with their hands and heads and etc., is nothing but showing off, well it is. It is showing of mental and physical toughness and determination. The thing that amazes me the most is that the 12 minute fight agaist 4 opponents is the final stage of the day long entry exam . And its not even spetsnaz VDV or Alfa, it is just regular interior troops. Another interesting detail is that those soldiers who distinguish themselves in combat and are given the choice between a medal and an attempt at the entry exam into spetsnaz, always choose the second even knowing that they can die, and people actually do die during it. Here is the link to the video about interior troops "madder beret" test.
http://www.army.lv/English/Video/Video.htm

[aragorn65]

No Jack, to my knowledge, the Russians were the first ones to implement parachuting in their military. I don't remember where I've seen that, but that's definitely what I remember.

Just my two cents: the first soldier that was parachuted behind enemy lines was an Italian during the first WW in 1917 against the Austrian Army. His name was Alessandro Tandura (see photo below)
http://www.ccpartuscania.net/images/Tandura.jpg

the airplane used was a Savoia Pomilio SP3 (see photo below):
http://www.ccpartuscania.net/images/pomilio2.jpg

it's very interesting the schema of the airplane and of the parachutist:
http://www.ccpartuscania.net/images/Pomilio.jpg

it's also interesting to note that the parachutist didn't know the exact moment in which the bay would be opened by the airplane pilot.

[Karjala]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/023.jpg
What weapon is this? Is it some russian made?

[UkrainianSpetsnaz]

everything that Russia uses in Military is Russian made

[Herrmannek]

everything that Russia uses in Military is Russian made
In new russian UAZ will be mounted polish engines from Andoria ;)

[UkrainianSpetsnaz]

Herrmanek. Cool, it's cool baby. LOL

But I mean in guns, Russia only uses Russian guns.

[Skaman]

Herrmanek. Cool, it's cool baby. LOL

But I mean in guns, Russia only uses Russian guns.


How many Chechens have died today? NOT ENOUGH?

WHAT THE **** IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?

[Russian Texan]

Those are not military UAZs. You are talking about civilian versions:
UAZ 315123 and 315143, they can be equiped with polish made 4 cylinder 8 valve diesels that are satisfying Euro 2 and Euro 3 pollution standards. Basically UAZ is trying to get into European market and is using italian, french and polish engines that have much better everyday driving characteristics.

All of the Soviet/Russian military equipment always was, is and will be internaly made because of number of reasons. I think that Russia is one of only two countries (I might be wrong) that is fully capable of desingning from scratch and producing hardware using only its internal resources.

In case of UAZ engines, Andoria's as well as french and italian engines are fine for the civilian use but are not suited for the military because:
# 1. Not as tough as ZMZ or UMZ engines according to http://www.uazbuka.ru
# 2. Parts availability. What if the war with NATO starts? Military looks at all possible scenarios.
# 3. Price
# 4. Ease of maintance

[ArmedPacifist]

Herrmanek. Cool, it's cool baby. LOL

But I mean in guns, Russia only uses Russian guns.


How many Chechens have died today? NOT ENOUGH?

WHAT THE f*** IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?


The hate runs very deep. It's what drives the conflict on both sides.

[Dmitri]

How many Chechens have died today? NOT ENOUGH?

WHAT THE f*** IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?
Did you ever get checked by the doctor? I mean from mental institution ;) :roll:

[REMOV]

All of the Soviet/Russian military equipment always was, is and will be internaly made Well, there were several weapons used by Russians and not Russian made. For example NKVD (OGPU/GUGB) uses German Mausers C96 (were bought in Germany in 1920s and 1930s) and Thompson SMG (Lend-lease, ca. 3000) as well. In late 1800s lots of guns were bought in the USA or Japan (thats why later Fedorov's battle rifle was fed by Japanese Arisaka ammunition).

[Russian Texan]

Ok, if you'd like to get anal - I stand corrected: post WW2, modern day, future :)

[OldRecon]

The use of blue and white striped undershirt as an item of uniform in Russia goes back to the days of the Tsarist navy, where it had been part of the uniform of the ordinary sailor as far back as at least 1890.
As part of the navy the Russian marines thus also wore the same blue & white striped undershirt as the sailors. This practice continued with the Soviet marines after the Revolution in 1917.
Indeed the blue & white striped undershirt in a sort of way became a symbol of the Russian revolution itself, with regards to the profilic role of Russian sailors during the early days of the revolution in St. Petersburg. With regards to the Soviet airborne forces, the blue & white striped undershirt became part of their uniform when General Margelov took over as head of the airborne forces in 1956.
Margelov had served as an officer in the Soviet Marines during WW-2 (and had apparently done well there, though I don't know anything more than that about his record of service during WW-2), and when he transfered to the airborne forces he took the blue & white undershirt with him, and no doubt used it as a symbolic element in instilling the right sort of fighting spirit and "elite" attitude in the men under his command.
In the aftermath of the downfall of USSSR the use of the blue & white striped undershirt spread from the official navy and airborne forces into the new "private armies" of private businesses / criminal elements (a distinction that can sometimes be rather hard to make for an outsider).
Undoubtedly as a sign of strength/thoughness to outsiders.
The use of the original blue & white striped undershirt thus as a symbol of state power / the government thus "tarnished", it's perhaps not surprising that the elite forces of the Russian government of today now show up "other colours" to distinguish themsels from the "blue & white rabble".
As for the history of Soviet airborne forces vs. "Billy Mitchell" and Italian developments in the field of airborne forces.
Billy Mitchell was indeed "first", with regards to putting forward the idea of making mass-drops of soldiers into the rear of "the enemy" from aircraft (more specifically converted Handley Page 0/400 type bomber aircraft) with the help of parachutes.
Before that however as early as 1915 both the French, Italians and the Germans (on the Eastern front at least) had landed single personel in the "enemy rear" in a similar fashion to the RAF covert operations with Westland Lysanders during WW-2.
During 1917/18 as noted above, the Italians started to drop single personel behind the Austrian lines with the help of parachutes.
No doubt as this offered greater flexiblity over the terrain in question, with regards to the number of possible drop off points that could be used, compared to the number of available sites if the aircraft carrying personel for insertion actually would have to touch down in order to drop off their "cargo".
One of the first instances of dropping of supplies by aircraft to troops on the ground, was the attempts by aircraft from the British Royal Flying Corps - during late 1915 / early 1916 - to drop supplies to the British forces under major-general Townshend beleagured by the Turks at Kut al Amara in Iraq (in the end to no avail as the Brithish forces there was forced to captiulate during April 1916). Later during the great offensives on the Wester Front of 1918 both the Germans and the Allies used aircraft as a means of getting supplies to forward elements on the ground.
From 1922 the British RAF used aircraft as a means of transporting ground reinforcements to hotspots of trouble in their wast empire. Though continuing to land such reinforcements on airfields, rather than dropping them off with parachutes.
After the end of WW-1 the Italians where the first to experiment with paratroopers proper, and during 6. november 1927 carried out the first mass drop of troops from Ca****i Ca 73 bombers. By the late 30's the Italians had formed two airborne divisions. The Folgore and Nembo divisions.
As for the russians they where apparently the first to perform combat drops of whole units of personel (rather than the dropping of 1 - 2 men conducted by the Italians during WW-1), when small detachments were dropped by parachute in Soviet Turkestan during 1929 in an effor to combat islamic rebels during the last of the Basmachi revolts there.
The first formal airborne unit in the Soviet union were only formed somewhat later however, during 1931 in the Leningrad military district.
By 1933 this initial "paratroop landing unit" had been expanded into a brigade, with four other "paratroop landing units" formed during 1932 later expanded to brigades in the same fashion.
During the large manouvre held in the summer of 1935 in the Kiev military district, the Soviets made a mass drop of 2500 paratroopers.
The main intention of this large exercise being to test out the components of the "deep battle theory" then under development under the overall guidance of field marshal Tukhachevsky.
The new Soviet airborne formations received their first baptism of fire, when the 212 airborne brigade was used as ordinary infantry during the Border clash between Soviet and Japanes forces at Khalkin Gol during the late summer/fall of 1939.
Later that same year the Soviets conducted the first full scale combat jumps near Petsamo during the "winter war" with Finland, though not with much success. During this campaign the Soviets also apparently experimented with dropping men eballed in rolls of hay from planes at low level into the snow without parachute. Again without success.
Besides these experiment 3 airborne brigades were employed during the "winter war" as ordinary infantry.
Later during the war with Germany from 1941-45 the Soviets conducted several large scale airborne operations against the Germans without success, though on the other hand as line infantry the Soviet airborne units seem to have fought better than the norm (as at Stalingrad? Was the unit commanded by Rodimtsev there "airborne").

[Bulkowski]

http://www.bratishka.ru/images/gallery/v_nikolaychuk/026.jpg
What's this? Looks very cool :D

[kutter]

Do you mean the gun? Thats the AS "VAL" silent assault rifle. It uses a modified AK action and fires subsonic 9x39mm ammunition.
http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as1.jpg
Caliber, mm: 9x39 (SP-6, PAB-9)
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt with 6 lugs
Length, mm: (stock open / folded): 875/615
Barrel lenght, mm: 200
Effective range, m: 400
Weigth, kg: 2.96
Magazine, rds: 10, 20

[Marmot1]

All of the Soviet/Russian military equipment always was, is and will be internaly made Well, there were several weapons used by Russians and not Russian made. For example NKVD (OGPU/GUGB) uses German Mausers C96 (were bought in Germany in 1920s and 1930s) and Thompson SMG (Lend-lease, ca. 3000) as well. In late 1800s lots of guns were bought in the USA or Japan (thats why later Fedorov's battle rifle was fed by Japanese Arisaka ammunition).
Well actualy Arisaka AFAIK was used during WWI by the rear units of russian army and even after the war some Arisaka's wer in polish army...(from old rusian depots) also planes during WWI were produced in foreign countries and under license (not all of course) ZIL-5 Truck was a license Ford truck Tu-4 was a copy of American B-29 (couple landed in far east during the war due to technical problems etc. crews returned to US but planes not... on Stalin order B-29 was disasemled copied and produced under the Tu-4 name but rusians used metric system instead of "imperial" and russian version was heavier (thicknes of cables etc) and the payload was smaller :-)

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/Tu-4.html

Mig-15 was a ripoff from german protothype(russians had changet it only a little) SCUD misiles comes direct from V2 rockets... there are more examples, of course russians invented a lot but also a lot were rip offs....like this


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/gifs/buran_land.gif
http://www.globalaircraft.org/photos/planephotos/buran04.jpg

no it is not Columbia nor Atlantis nor Discovery it is rusian Buran (probably 100% russian invention...)
orginal for comparision
http://my.execpc.com/~culp/space/shuttle.jpg

and rusian "concorde" rip-off T-144
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/MAKS97/mak97ag_tu144.jpg

Well it is easy to produce something when somebody else pays bilions of $ for development. But yes I must admit you produce it internaly in russia... and "your" nukes also were "invented" in russia.... ;-)

[Kingpin]

Disagree.

Tu-144 design coming from T-4 prototype which was invented as response to US Valkiria (XB-70?).

Buran uses many ideas of US shuttle but internally it is very different. And i agree with our designers which said that if some ideas very well suitable for purpose why do not use them. Japan and EU tried to invent they own shuttles but until now they failed. SU succeded employing some ideas from US shuttle. BTW all other shuttle projects of Japan and EU also were very similar to US shuttle.

[GazB]

"As for the history of Soviet airborne forces vs. "Billy Mitchell" and Italian developments in the field of airborne forces.
Billy Mitchell was indeed "first", with regards to putting forward the idea of making mass-drops of soldiers into the rear of "the enemy" from aircraft (more specifically converted Handley Page 0/400 type bomber aircraft) with the help of parachutes."

That discussion came from the similarity between Russian and US insignia. The relevant point is that the Russian parachute forces were created first and presumably created their emblems, awards and uniforms first too.

"Later during the war with Germany from 1941-45 the Soviets conducted several large scale airborne operations against the Germans without success,"

For most of the first part of WWII paradropped forces were not needed... to get troops behind enemy lines it was easier to just stay behind than risk getting shot down by enemy fighters. The paradrops that were performed were in rather desperate circumstances and largely failed. Used as regular troops though the paratroops as well as the marines tended to fight much better than the average conscript. The Siberian troops were also pretty hard too.

"but rusians used metric system instead of "imperial" and russian version was heavier (thicknes of cables etc) and the payload was smaller"

The engines were also more powerful and the gun armament was much heavier with 20mm cannons instead of 50 MGs. The problems with directly copying the B-29 lead to the Russians never copying directly again.

"Mig-15 was a ripoff from german protothype(russians had changet it only a little)"

Rubbish. A direct copy of the Me262 didn't enter service because it "looked" german... The Mig-15 has the same basic layout of the Sabre.. is that a copy too? Or the F-15 a copy of the mig-25?

"SCUD misiles comes direct from V2 rockets... "

All modern rocket programs started with the V-2s. The scud looks nothing like a V2.

"no it is not Columbia nor Atlantis nor Discovery it is rusian Buran (probably 100% russian invention...)
orginal for comparision "

The Russians copied the aerodynamic shape for their shuttle... the Americans spent billions looking at hundreds of different shapes... the Russians would be fools to spend more money just to make it look different. The Russian space shuttle is rather different however in the way it works. The US shuttle has an enormous fuel tank for the shuttles engines and two solid rocket boosters strapped to the side of the fuel tank. Without the solid rocket boosters the shuttle would go nowhere and just sit on the pad burning fuel. The solid rocket boosts are bad because once lit you can't turn them off if something goes wrong. Once they burn out they fall away and the remaining fuel in the large tank is used by the shuttles engines to take it up to space. The Russian space shuttle doesn't have the powerful engines on it and doesn't fire any engines at launch... the rocket it sits upon carries it into space. The Russian shuttle therefore can carry much heavier payloads into space because it has no heavy (and dangerous) rocket engines on it. It is 10 tons lighter and carries a payload 20% heavier. If needed the shuttle can be removed and replaced by a payload the weight of the whole shuttle to put in orbit... something the Americans can't do. The Buran also has an ejection seat and can be flown (and was) fully automatically without a crew.

"and rusian "concorde" rip-off T-144 "

Which flew before Concord, and was rather different in design. The picture you posted shows the canard foreplanes that reduce landing speed and improve low speed handling.

[OldRecon]

As for other Russian/Soviet "firsts" in the field of military technology.

The Soviet air force was the first to put into service a monoplane fighter aircraft with retractable landing gear (the Polikarpov I-16 "Rata").

...

The Soviet air force was the first to employ unguided rockets from aircraft (the RS-82 (in 1938)).

...

The T-34 came .... before the German Pzkw V Panther.

...

The Soviets were also the first to employ circular baseplates on mortars (on the model 1937 82 mm and 1938 120 mm mortars allmost 20 years before similar baseplates where employed on US and British mortars).

...

And the first to put a self propelled AA gun system with integral radar into service (the ZSU 23-4). Only the Germans/Dutch (the Gepard) and the french (don't remember its designation, but it's a 37 mm 2 barrel system in a turret on an AMX-13 light tank chassis) have developed and put into service similar weapon systems. The US attempt at a self-propelled radar controlled anti-aircraft gun during the Reagan era, the DIVAD/Stg. York, was a big & costly failure.

...

The Soviets were the first to develop and put into service a MICV (the BMP-1 in 1967(?)). The Germans had a similar vehicle under development at much the same time (the Marder), but only had it ready for service introduction in 1971.

...

The mathematical theories behind stealth planes were first developed in the Soviet union, where for some astonishing reason or another these theories were allowed to be published in Soviet scientific publications accessible to the West.
Perhaps because putting those mathematical formulas into practice required a level of computer power that was at the outer edge of what was available at the time even in the west.
(With the computers of that time in the early 1970's the developers at the Lockheed skunk works couldn't do stealth calculations in 3D, but they could just do them in 2D, and the result became the distict flat panel facetted shape of the F-117).

....

Recently the Russian submarine service (and air force anti-submarine aircraft) have put into service technology that enables a sort of missile that can travel at a very high speed underwater by some sort of counteraction of the friction of water (mainly by using fumes to create an air pocket ahead of the missile).

[OldRecon]

As for the Mig 15 being a direct copy of a German prototype.
All attempts of Non-German swept wing aircraft during the late 40's / early 50's depended heavily on German WW-2 research into the use of swept wings on aircraft.
This goes for the US F-86 Sabre, the Swedish J-29 "Flying barrel", and the British Hawker hunter, Supermarine Swift and DH Venom fighters, as well as the Soviet Mig 15.
The engine of the Mig 15 though was more or less a direct copy of the British Rolls Royce Nene engine.
If the German protopye mentioned is the one I think of (made by Focke Wulf or Heinkel, can't remember exactly at the moment and don't have my library within reach) it would be wrong to say that the Mig was copied from it. Even though they have a somewhat similar shape (though the shape of the Swedish J-29 would look even more similar to the German prototype). As this german prototype, besides having a single engine in the after part of the hull, also was the first attempt at making a "swing wing" jet aircraft.

[Russian Texan]

Marmot1, I have said made not invented. Granted USSR/Russia did and will borrow some money saving ideas just like everyone else does. What I was referrng to was the fact that everything in the soviet military was internaly made after WW2 because of the Cold war circumstances.

[Marmot1]

Marmot1, I have said made not invented. Granted USSR/Russia did and will borrow some money saving ideas just like everyone else does. What I was referrng to was the fact that everything in the soviet military was internaly made after WW2 because of the Cold war circumstances.

That borowing has name it is plagiarism or stealing of intelectual property

As for Mig-15 i didnt said that it is copy of Me 262 ,Me was totally diferent engines under wings etc... Mig was copy of ole of protothypes,germas did even the flight tests and russians copied and modified it but the airframe is almost simmilar i had some photos but i could'n find it now.

Buran...come on look at it whole idea is ripped off from US and the airframe even colors are the same of course inside it has diferent stuff but the airframe and aerodynamical calculations wer prepared by US and you just copied it

Tu 144 well you added small wing near the nose but it is also ripp of look at it
http://www.123.cl/canales/noticias/img/concorde.gif
Concorde



http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/graphics/TU-144LL/Small/Tu-144LL_inflight.gif
Tu-144
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/graphics/TU-144LL/Small/Tu-144LL_3view.gif
Tu-144
http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/other/concord/img/concorde.gif
Concorde again

[OldRecon]

As for the Mig 15 being a direct copy of a German prototype.
All attempts of Non-German swept wing aircraft during the late 40's / early 50's depended heavily on German WW-2 research into the use of swept wings on aircraft.
...

If the German protopye mentioned is the one I think of (made by Focke Wulf or Heinkel, can't remember exactly at the moment and don't have my library within reach) it would be wrong to say that the Mig was copied from it. Even though they have a somewhat similar shape (though the shape of the Swedish J-29 would look even more similar to the German prototype). As this german prototype, besides having a single engine in the after part of the hull, also was the first attempt at making a "swing wing" jet aircraft.

The fighter prototype I was thinking of was in fact designed by Messerschmitt with the designation P.1101.
This single engined aircraft prototype had the same sort of front end "open nose" air intake as the Mig-15, F-86 Sabre, and the J-29 "Flying barrel". Though the positioning of the exhaust nozzle and horizontal tail of the P.1101 is more comparable to the J-29 than to either the Sabre or the Mig (the Sabre having a low wing high horizontal tail mounted on the fuselage configuration, vs. the mid wing t-tail configuration of the Mig-15).
The vertical separation between the main wing and horizontal tail of the P.1101 is so close however, that it wouldn't surprise me if there would be problems with turbulence from the main wing over the horizontal controll surfaces of the aircraft if it ever flew.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/3bm1101c.jpg
http://www.luft46.com/mess/p1100-4.jpg
http://www.luft46.com/mess/p1100-6.gif

Two pictures of the the Swedish Saab J-29 for comparison:
http://medlem.spray.se/riolin/F22/j29c_web1.gif
http://medlem.spray.se/riolin/F22/j29b_4stweb.JPG

More information about P.1101 can be found at http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep1101.html

[GazB]

"Marmot1"

Thanks for posting the images of the Concord and Tu-144. Proof it wasn't a copy. Look especially at the head on shots, the engine positions are completely different as is the body shape. Even the shape of the wings is different. If you are going to suggest that the basic similarity of an ogival wing and no horizontal tail makes them a copy, then the F-15 is a direct copy of the Mig-25... and the F-22 is a further copy based on the F-15 as they all use the same basic layout. Equally the new Eurofighter is just a copy of a prototype model Mig-21 with canards and a chin air intake.

"That borowing has name it is plagiarism or stealing of intelectual property "

Bull****. A lot of design is based on fashion. Look at the current Euro canard fashion with triangular wings, single vertical fins and canard control surfaces. Blended wing/fuselages, for a while swing wings were trendy, and at another time lift jets and VSTOL was in fashion. Intellectual property in meaningless. Everytime you record your favourite TV program you are breaking the law, even the TV commercials are "protected". It is a capitalist ideal, and is hardly ever enforced. How could you design a "new" aircraft... it is impossible. Wheels have already been invented and to use them would be to copy everyone before you... stealing their "intellectual property". Can't use a cushion of air as that has been used as the under carriage for aircraft too... so what is your plane going to land on?

The point being made was that Russia likes to use things it makes itself. Up until recently the standard HMG the Russians used was called the NSV-T, but as that is made in the Ukraine they have introduced the Kord HMG to replace it. The MAZ series of trucks are not made in Russia either and are being replaced too. Antonov transport aircraft are also Ukrainian and are unlikely to be replaced with Antonov aircraft unless Tupelov or Illusion can't come up with something competitive. To suggest everything they use is uniquely Russian is not true, but no army in the world can make that claim.

[oldsoak]

I remember reading somewhere that the Soviets did indeed indulge in industrial espionage ref the Concorde and Tu 144 for which some chap ended up being nicked by French intelligence and a diplomat being deported. Apparently the Brits went over to Russia for a chat and a look at the aviation industry and had a rude suprise. They were shown the projected layout for the Tu 144 which rattled the teacups a bit. Here were the Russians doing a remarkable similar thing to then secret Concorde. Having also been shown a VC 10 look alike ( IL 62 ) they thought this a bit more than happenstance and so alerted the intelligence services.
rgds

[REMOV]

Thanks for posting the images of the Concord and Tu-144. Proof it wasn't a copy. Look especially at the head on shots, the engine positions are completely different as is the body shape. Even the shape of the wings is different. Hmm...


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144

Tupolev Tu-144
The Tupolev Tu-144 (NATO codename: Charger) was a supersonic airliner constructed under management of the Soviet Tupolev design bureau headed by Alexei Tupolev (1925-2001).

Western media nicknamed the plane Konkordski, because of its superficial similarity to Concorde. A prototype first flew on December 31, 1968 near Moscow, two months before the Concorde. The Tu-144 first broke the sound barrier on June 5, 1969, and on May 26, 1970, it became the first commercial transport to exceed Mach 2.

Development
The Tu-144s design owned much to industrial espionage, with the Aerospatiale's French factory proving particularly open to infiltration. When Sergei Pavlov -- officially head of Aeroflot's Paris office -- was finally arrested in 1965, he was in possession of details of Concorde's brakes, landing gear and airframe. However another agent, Sergei Fabiew, whose successes included obtaining the complete prototype blueprints, was not arrested until 1977. While such espionage defined the basic shape of the plane and assisted considerably in its development, the 1970 prototype was far from a simple copy, and based on flight tests, considerable changes were made between the prototype and the model
that was to fly in 1973.

At a Paris air show on June 3, 1973, the development program suffered a severe blow when one of the aircraft crashed. While in the air it undertook a violent turn down (allegedly to avoid a French Mirage fighter plane that was, apparently unknown to the Tu-144's crew, escorting it), probably stalling the engines. Trying to pull out of the subsequent dive, the plane broke up and crashed, destroying 15 houses and killing all six on board and eight on the ground.

In service
The Tu-144 went into service on December 26, 1975, flying mail and freight between Moscow and Alma-Ata in preparation for passenger services, which commenced in November 1977. The first Tu-144D experienced an in-flight failure and crash-landed with fatalities on May 23, 1978. The passenger flight on June 1, 1978 would be the Tu-144's 102nd and last.
A total of 17 Tu-144s were built, including the prototype and five Tu-144Ds, which featured more powerful engines and longer range. Although its last commercial flight was in 1978, production of the Tu-144 would not cease until six years later, in 1984.

In 1990, Tupolev approached NASA and offered a Tu-144 as a testbed for its High Speed Commercial Research program, intended to design a second-generation supersonic jetliner. In 1995, serial number RA-77114, a Tu-144D built in 1981 with only 82 hours, 40 minutes total flight time, was taken out of storage and after extensive modification at a total cost of $350 million was designated the Tu-144LL. It made a total of 27 flights in 1996 and 1997. In 1999, the project was cancelled. The Tu-144LL was reportedly sold in June 2001 for $11 million.

The plane did not sell after all. Tejavia reported on September 2003 that the deal was not signed. The replacement Kuznetsov NK-321 engines (from the Tupolev Tu-160 bomber) are military items. The Russian government would not allow them to be exported. Two flyable aircraft are still at the Tupolev production plant.

It is known that Aeroflot still continued to fly the TU-144D. One last report showed that it was used on a flight from the Crimea to Kiev in 1987.

It should be noted that the TU-144 equipped with the NK-144 jets could not cruise at Mach 2 without the afterburner on. A cruising speed of Mach 1.6 was possible. Currently the Testbed 144LL and the last remaining 144D are under restriction to not exceed Mach 1. Latest news is that one of the two planes has been sold to a Belgium museum and will be shipped - not flown - there in 2004. The NK-321 jet engines will have been removed.

Specification
Power source: 4 Kuznetsov NK-144 turbo-fans of 20,000 kg afterburning thrust
Maximum cruising speed: 2,500 km/h (Mach 2.35)
Operational ceiling: 18,000 m
Range with maximum payload: 6,500 km
Empty weight: 85,000 kg
Maximum take-off weight: 180,000 kg
Span: 28.80 m
Length: 65.70 m
Wing area: 438 m²

See also: http://www.gizmohighway.com/pages/history/tu-144.htm, http://www.moninoaviation.com/album6.html,
and very interesting http://www.moninoaviation.com/tu144sn.html
(the list of Tu-144s with eventual fate).

http://www.technik-museum.de/tupolev/tu144%20frontal.jpg
http://www.technik-museum.de/tupolev/tupolev_144.jpg
Tu-144D, displayed since May 2001 on the roof of the Auto & Technik Museum in Sinsheim, Germany. It was sold for ca. 500 000USD.

[REMOV]

..and some funny Tu-144 photo:

http://www.cockpits.pp.ru/Tu-144-2.jpg

The last modification of the pilot's armchair :-)
(TU-144 at the hangar Tupolev aircraft design bureau)

[GazB]

The main problem with the Tu-144 was lack of a suitable engine. If it was a geniune copy then they'd just have copied the Concords Olympus engines. The Tu-144M introduced much better engines that made it a viable (ie faster longer ranged aircraft than Concord with larger seating capacity). By the time it was ready the aircrat had already lost favour and was cancelled anyway. It was recently ressurected however in the form of the Tu-144LL flying labratory. Boeing having no experience with supersonic transport aircraft and no expecting any help from France paid for a Tu-144 to be upgraded with the NK-321 engines used in the Black jack bomber for tests in of various systems.

[oldsoak]

I dont think the Tu144 was a genuine copy of Concorde in the sense that they slavishly copied it - Russian designers are both world class and innovative and we must give credit where credit is due. ( They produced the first turbofan powered commercial aircraft ) What may have happened is that having the detailed info on Concorde, they took what they needed for areas they were deficient in. They were under considerable pressure to get there first and they took what help they got. Their choice of turbofans instead of turbojets was with hindsight not the best decision given the state of technology at the time ( we're talking the sixties ) but this was a prestige project and the designers may not have had much leeway.
rgds

[Sierra]

Those are some great pics! woot

[juhae]

The fighter prototype I was thinking of was in fact designed by Messerschmitt with the designation P.1101.
This single engined aircraft prototype had the same sort of front end "open nose" air intake as the Mig-15, F-86 Sabre, and the J-29 "Flying barrel".

To my belief, it is generally more commonly thought that MiG-15 was based on Focke-Wulf Ta-183 "Huckbein" (designed by Kurt Tank, who also was behind Fw-190).

As for comparison:
http://www.luft46.com/fw/3bft183i.jpg

And:

After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.

[GazB]

Well if that was what was copied then I know it is rubbish.

The length and shape of the body are wrong and the position of the wing and tail surfaces are wrong too. the only thing close is the basic shape of a tube body and swept wings... exactly the same basic features as the Sabre or many other post war designs from France, Sweden, the US and Britain.

[Ayura]

call me weird, but I have a thing about Russian warfare. They way they look is soo F*****G cool. Iv always luved the balaclava/bandanda over the face kinda look with the Russain BDU's and russian weapons.

Great pics

[slondeau]

Nice Pics! Thanks! Question: Does the Russian SF or I guess moreso the Russian Military in general, still teach Sambo?
I know that they used to teach Sambo and I thought maybe something else to. Very effective fighting techniques...