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catalyst
11-04-2004, 08:50 AM
AUSTRALIA - Reaching out
Jane's Defence Weekly | 28 Oct 04 | Ian Bostock


Posted on 11/04/2004 3:30:06 AM PST by Dundee


COUNTRY BRIEFING: AUSTRALIA - Reaching out


The re-election of John Howard's government on 9 October marks a signpost for the way ahead for the Australian Defence Force and Australia's strategic outlook and defence policy formation. Ian Bostock reports


The Coalition government's clear and unambiguous mandate to govern for another three years leaves it primed to bury once and for all the 'Defence of Australia' mantra that has dogged the ability of the Australian Defence Force (ADF) to provide meaningful combat-ready forces in support of coalition operations distant from Australian shores.


Defence of the mainland and Australia's offshore territories will naturally remain a high priority and operating throughout the near region an enduring point of focus, but the principal difference will be the manner in which the ADF is structured, trained and equipped to provide the type and scope of capabilities required by government. If the past decade or so of deployments are anything to judge by, this will translate into the use of predominantly land-based task forces, supported by naval and air assets, well outside the region in support of coalition operations, regardless of whether the Liberal Party-led Coalition or Labor Party is the ruling party of the day.


This process has already begun, but has been slowed in parts by the hesitancy within the Australian Department of Defence (DoD) to tackle opposition within its own ranks and a lack of drive within the ADF itself. Nonetheless, and particularly under the cautious but thorough Minister for Defence Robert Hill, progress is under way to re-equip the ADF to better meet likely contingencies and threats.


The Defence Capability Plan (DCP) 2004-14, released in February this year, sets out the basic framework around which the major capital equipment acquisition projects will be managed. The total budget allocation for these projects exceeds A$27 billion (US$20 billion). Many of these projects will be key to creating an ADF better able to provide meaningful and sustainable contributions to coalition operations at the higher end of the warfighting spectrum, both close to home and further abroad.


In recent years, the DoD and Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) have managed to claw back a modicum of credibility with industry and the end user by delivering a number of major capital equipment acquisition programmes more or less on time and on budget. The most notable successes appear to be (at this stage) those for new Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopters (ARHs), Wedgetail airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and Anzac-class frigates.


Despite such high water marks and the fact that a measure of flexibility has been built into the budget allocations for each of the 63 projects contained in the DCP, it is widely expected that existing levels of funding - currently around 1.9% of gross domestic product - will prove inadequate over the next decade. In addition to likely shortfalls in funding for some long-term DCP projects, the increasing burden of personnel costs, possible future increases in the size of the army and costs in meeting unforeseen operational commitments are expected to place considerable pressure on the defence budget. Canberra has, however, opted to quarantine the defence budget and meet the costs of some recent ADF operations from other revenue sources.


Without question, there is no more fat to be trimmed off the ADF bone with regard to personnel numbers. Both the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) and Royal Australian Navy (RAN) continue to struggle to recruit and retain enough pilots and sailors to fly their aircraft and crew their ships, respectively. The army, with just five full-time infantry battalions (including a commando regiment), is by all accounts at the bare manpower minimum.


A strong argument, however, could be mounted in support of personnel reductions from the civilian arms of the DoD and DMO, which are both over bureaucratic and disproportionately large in relation to the size of Australia's armed forces. The DMO, for example, employs 6,000-plus civilian and uniformed personnel to procure capability for a defence force totalling just 52,000 full-time personnel.


Army


Although not acknowledged as such at the time, Australia's inability to provide a mechanised battalion group for combat operations in Iraq was perhaps a turning point for the nation's army: a wake-up call that it was not sufficiently robust and combat-ready to meet the demands of modern land warfare across the variety of battlespaces in which Western armies currently find themselves engaged.


Though widely viewed internally as one of the world leaders in peacekeeping/peace-support operations, serious doubts were harboured about the army's ability to survive and win on the 21st century battlefield. The vulnerability of the extant Leopard AS1 main battle tank (MBT) to stand up to late-generation, yet cheap and widely available, rocket-propelled grenade (RPG)-type assault weapons, which have since proven to proliferate throughout the fighting in Iraq, was understood to be of particular concern. The M113A1 tracked armoured personnel carrier (APC) fleet, never upgraded since its entry into service during the mid-1960s, was also viewed as a weakness, central as it would be to a mechanised force.


Rather than upgrade the Leopard AS1 fleet, the army will receive 59 M1A1 AIM (Abrams Integrated Management) Abrams MBTs to equip the 1st Armoured Regiment (1 Armd Regt) of the 1st Brigade (1 Bde) based at Darwin in the Northern Territory. The tanks will be stripped and rebuilt to AIM standard in the US at the Lima Army Tank Plant in Ohio. From here the vehicles will emerge reassembled to a zero kilometre, zero hours standard. The rebuild process will take 12-24 months.


Introduction into service is scheduled for 2007, with 41 M1A1 AIM Abrams to be allocated to 1 Armd Regt. The first squadron (around 15 tanks) is to achieve an initial operating capability in mid-late 2007. The remaining tanks will be issued to the School of Armour and Logistics Training Centre in Victoria for 1 Armd Regt training and for attrition stocks.


The total A$530 million Abrams package for Australia, realised through the US Foreign Military Sales programme, also includes seven M88A2 armoured recovery vehicles, tank transporters, six gunnery training systems, a tank driver trainer and engineering and project-management support. The provider of long-term in-country logistics support is yet to be decided and will be procured separately.


In addition to addressing the armour-protection issue, the new tanks will fulfil, in part, Chief of Army Lieutenant General Peter Leahy's vision for a more network-enabled force, functioning as nodes on the battlefield as part of a wider networked force.


To round out the enhanced mechanised capability of 1 Bde, 350 M113A1s will be upgraded to the local designation of AS3 and AS4 standard. With Tenix Defence as lead prime contractor/systems integrator, all vehicles will be stripped back to the bare hull and completely refurbished to ensure the M113AS3/AS4 fleet stays operationally viable and supportable to at least 2015. The first company group of 16 vehicles will enter service in late 2006.


The 171 APC variants (M113AS4 APC (S)) will have their hulls stretched and a sixth road wheel added to increase useable internal volume and payload. A new one-person turret designed and built by Tenix and armed with a single 12.7mm heavy machine gun (HMG) will replace the current Cadillac Gage T-50 turret. The new turret is electrically powered and features a day/night periscopic sight for the commander/ gunner, who aims and fires the weapon via a joystick control panel. Baseline armour protection is provided against 5.56mm and 7.62mm small-arms fire.


This work, being undertaken under the long-running and considerably delayed Project Land 106, will involve replacing the original 215hp six-cylinder diesel engine with a new DaimlerChrysler-MTU 6V 199 TE diesel developing 348hp. The A ZF LSG 1000R automatic transmission will be installed, as will new suspension components, driver controls, tracks, spall liners and external fuel tanks.


To improve overall protection levels a suite of passive appliqué armour is to be fitted permanently to the hull front, sides and rear and to the one-man turret on the APC variants. The additional armour increases the combat weight of the stretched APC variant to approximately 18 tonnes. The army's 247-strong fleet of Phase 2 and Phase 3 ASLAVs has been brought up to a common standard to maximise operational, maintenance and training synergies across those cavalry units equipped with the vehicles. These vehicles, some 130 of which are equipped with a two-man turret armed with a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon, provide fast-moving reaction and response manoeuvre, medium tactical reconnaissance, flank protection, defensive support and convoy escort for combined arms battle groups.


The Kongsberg Remote Weapon Station (RWS) was recently retrofitted to a number of ASLAV-PC (personnel carrier) vehicles bound for operations in Iraq. Intended to provide enhanced protection for the operator and improved offensive capabilities, the RWS-equipped ASLAV-PC will fire a 12.7mm HMG, with the Mk 19 40mm automatic grenade launcher (AGL) and two-axis system stabilisation possible future options.


Pending satisfactory performance in the field, the RWS is now expected to fulfil the army's long-standing Behind Armour Commander's Weapon Station requirement for the ASLAV-PC fleet. This displaces an indigenous system pursued by ADI Limited during the late 1990s, for which development has since stalled.


With user specification issues, reliability concerns and cost overruns now in the past, the A$329 million programme for 299 Bushmaster 4 x 4 infantry mobility vehicles is gathering momentum and will provide a much-needed motorised infantry capability within the 7th Brigade, with a small number also to equip Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Airfield Defence Guard units. ADI has commenced full-rate production and will formally hand over the first Bushmasters in May 2005.


Another long-running vehicle programme, Project Overlander, seeks to replace the army's fleets of light, medium and heavy general-service vehicles and trailers in two batches: the first for selected high-priority combat and combat support units in 2007-08, and the second in 2011-13 for all other units.


No firm contenders for Overlander have yet emerged; bidders shortlisted to proceed to the next stage of the acquisition process have not yet been made public. The issue of a request for tender (RfT) to the shortlisted companies is now not expected until late 2005. The total project cost is estimated to exceed A$3 billion.


A number of projects are currently providing additional weapon systems to selected formations in an effort to improve direct and indirect firepower capabilities. However, in reality most are simply enabling the army to 'play catch-up' and receive those weapons that have long been standard fare in most professional armies but that were missing on the army's inventory due to a deliberate and prolonged degradation of its combat effectiveness during the 1980s and 1990s - when government policy required it to deal only with small-scale incursions on the Australian mainland. Nonetheless, these include the procurement of Javelin shoulder-fired missile launchers, new infantry direct-fire support weapons (expected to be additional 12.7mm HMGs and 40mm automatic grenade launchers) and a small number of 155mm self-propelled howitzers under Project Land 17.


Other important equipment acquisition decisions include the 31 August selection of the NH90 as the army's new trooplift and battlefield utility helicopter, which will eventually succeed the S-70A-9 Black Hawk fleet. Delivery of the first 12 NH90s, in what is expected to be an order for a total of 40 aircraft, will commence in 2007.


The 12 additional NH90s will result in a squadron of Black Hawks transferring from the 5th Aviation Regiment at Townsville, Queensland, to Holsworthy west of Sydney in direct support of the Army's Tactical Assault Group-East counter-terrorist unit.


The NH90s will integrate well with the army's new Tiger ARH; first deliveries of the latter will commence in December 2004. Both aircraft have a composite airframe (thereby improving their deployability on board RAN amphibious ships) and share the same tactical data system and helmet-mounted crew sight and have a common electronic warfare self-protection suite.


Replacing the now retired UH-1H Iroquois gunship, the Tiger ARH will assume the role of medium tactical reconnaissance and aerial fire support platform. Its armament suite includes Hellfire 2 air-to-ground missiles, 70mm unguided rockets and a chin-mounted 30mm cannon. The army will also take delivery of a quantity of tactical unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) under Joint Project 129 in the second half of 2008. A new surveillance and target-acquisition regiment will be raised to manage and operate the new capability.


Despite the notable progress being made in equipment acquisitions and capability development, a small army such as Australia's will continue to fight for relevance among its principal allies (the UK and US) unless efforts are made to increase the number of full-time infantry units and procure sufficient quantities of combat equipment - particularly artillery, MBTs and other direct- and indirect-fire support weapons - to offset its small manpower resources.


Much intellectual input and scientific analysis has been provided by the army's capability-development branches and the Defence Science and Technology Organisation, respectively, over recent years into making Australian land forces 'smarter', networked and better able to locate and identify enemy forces in an increasingly cluttered battlespace. However, with just one tank regiment, one medium artillery regiment and little more than token support from the RAAF in providing close air support capabilities, deficiencies remain in the army's capacity to physically engage and destroy enemy forces in protracted engagements.


Air force


Capital equipment acquisition programmes for the RAAF are less numerous than for the other two services but collectively they will absorb a very significant chunk of Australia's defence funding over the next 10 to 12 years.


Key among these is the procurement of 80 to 100 Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSFs) to replace the F-111 strike and F/A-18 Hornet fighter fleets under Project Air 6000 New Aerospace Combat Capability. While Australia has, in theory, another two years before it needs to officially sign an acquisition order for JSF, the reality is that no alternative aircraft types are being considered to fulfil the Air 6000 requirement.


According to the DCP, the RAAF can expect its first tranche of JSFs in the 2012-14 timeframe. However, this seems optimistic at best given that the US Air Force, the UK and several other countries that have made larger financial commitments to the JSF programme than Australia are also booked in to receive their JSFs around the same time. Some industry analysts predict that the RAAF may have to wait until at least 2015-16 for its first JSF deliveries. Funding allocated to the JSF buy is between A$11.5 billion-A$15.5 billion.


In June this year, a joint parliamentary committee recommended that the RAAF investigate the feasibility of acquiring the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant of the JSF, as well as the conventional take-off and landing version. It is understood that, internally at least, the RAAF has recognised the potential for the RAN's new flat-top LHDs to operate STOVL JSFs on an ad-hoc basis and the operational benefits that embarked fixed-wing combat aircraft would bring to a joint amphibious task force operating distant from the Australian mainland without the use of friendly air bases.


The RAAF has also begun searching for a maritime UAV to conduct maritime and land surveillance and patrol missions under the A$750 million-A$1 billion Phase 1 of Project Air 7000. A part replacement for the newly upgraded AP-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), trials will commence next year of the Northrop Grumman RQ-4B Global Hawk and General Atomics Mariner. No plans exist at this stage to arm the UAVs, but the government has indicated that it will remain an option. The UAV chosen is to enter service in 2009-11.


Phase 2 of Air 7000, which is costed at A$3.5 billion-$4.5 billion, seeks a manned maritime patrol capability to replace the AP-3C Orions between 2013-15. The US Navy's mid-year selection of the Boeing Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) to replace its own P-3 Orion fleet will likely see the RAAF follow suit and signal its Phase 2 intentions early, and no doubt seek to become a partner in the MMA development effort.


The life of the RAAF's 12 C-130H Hercules medium transport aircraft is to be extended to at least 2020 under a A$450 million-$600 million refurbishment programme. These will complement the 12 C-130J-30s that entered service several years ago.


Under Phase 2 of the same project (Air 8000), a new Battlefield Airlifter (BFA) is to be acquired in the 2010-12 period. While the final capability requirements are yet to be decided, the BFA would undertake inter-theatre and intra-theatre airlift, operating at predominantly lower altitudes and from a range of rudimentary airstrips. No aircraft types have been identified by the RAAF to fulfil the BFA slot, but the Airbus Industries A400M has been promoted by the manufacturer for some time as the most feasible solution.


The first of six Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft will enter service in 2007, with debut flights of the Boeing 737-700-based platform conducted this year in the US. In April, under Project Air 5402, EADS was selected as the preferred tenderer to supply a new fleet of air-to-air refuellers under an A$2 billion deal. Five Airbus A330-200 Multi Role Tanker Transports will be delivered between 2007-09.


The acquisition of new air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground ordnance has boosted the 'sharp end' of the RAAF. Its F/A-18 Hornets are now flying with Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles within visual range and AIM-120B/C Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles beyond visual range.


Project Air 5418 will deliver a Follow-On Stand-Off Weapon for F/A-18 Hornets and AP-3C Orions (and later the JSF) around 2008-09 to strike at targets on land, at sea and in the littoral. Candidate weapons include the AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Stand-off Missile, the Taurus KEPD 350 and Boeing AGM-84H Stand-off Land Attack Missile Expanded Response.


The F-111 fleet will receive the AGM-142E Popeye standoff weapon in 2005-06 following delays due to integration issues. Precision-guidance kits will also be procured to enhance the accuracy of existing stocks of freefall bombs.


Navy


In support of an army that is becoming more deployable and survivable on the modern battlefield by enhancing its protection, mobility and firepower, the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) is also undergoing a sea change of sorts through the introduction over the next 10 years of several pivotal surface ship types.


The plan to replace one of the two converted 8,500-ton amphibious transport ships (LPAs) and the heavy lift ship HMAS Tobruk with two medium-size landing helicopter dock (LHD) ships will provide a quantum leap in Australia's amphibious capabilities. LHD designs from Izar and Armaris, a joint subsidiary of DCN and Thales, are currently under evaluation, with a preferred designer and local lead shipyard to be selected in the second half of 2005.


Depending on the preferred design, each LHD will displace 25,000-27,000 tons full load, with an overall length of 215-230m. Based on currently known plans, the Australian LHDs will be the biggest and most capable amphibious ships in the Asian region. Generic features of each LHD will include a full-length flight deck with six landing spots for the simultaneous operation of six medium-size (NH90) helicopters, a dedicated hangar for at least 12 helicopters, a stern docking well and four organic medium landing craft. It is understood that the RAN, based on the army's needs, requires each ship to transport as standard a landing force of 900-1,000 troops, with capacity for additional personnel such as those required in support of embarked helicopters, landing craft and headquarters elements.


The RAN will seek high levels of systems automation where appropriate to reduce crew numbers and hence through-life support costs, although it is anticipated that each ship will still require a complement of around 250 personnel. The first LHD is due for handover to the RAN late in 2010, the second in 2015.


Rounding out the entry capabilities of the LHDs will be a sealift capability to consolidate a lodgement by bringing bulk loads of follow-on troop reserves/reinforcements, ammunition, food, water, fuel, engineering plant and logistics elements onto the beach or offloading at port facilities. They will also be capable of operating independently as a stand-alone assets.


Replacing the second LPA around 2016, the sealift capability requirement is yet to be finalised and may consist of a single large ship or two or more smaller vessels. Whichever ship type is chosen, it will likely place emphasis on bringing loads ashore via landing craft and pontoons/MEXEfloats, rather than by helicopter.


Both the LHDs and the sealift ship/s will be built in Australia under Phase 4A/B and Phase 4C of Joint Project 2048, respectively.


A$1.5 billion-$2 billion is allocated for the LHDs and A$150 million-A$200 million for the sealift capability, although it is anticipated this latter figure will prove inadequate to provide the level of capability sought.


If cost pressures for Phase 4C persist over the medium term, the RAN may be prompted to investigate alternative and less capital and crew-intensive hullforms, such as the next generation of high-speed vessels (HSVs) designed for the sealift role. Should this be the case, the RAN will find itself in the fortunate position of having the world's foremost designers and builders of large HSVs on home soil in the shape of Austal Ships in Western Australia and Tasmania-based Incat.


The RAN's afloat support capabilities will also be boosted with the introduction of a new double-hull 37,000-ton, 176m tanker in July 2006. Purchased new from a South Korean commercial shipyard, the ship (to be commissioned as the Sirius) will replace the single-hull HMAS Westralia and undergo conversion in Australia to render it fit for naval service. The underway replenishment ship HMAS Success is due for replacement mid-way through the next decade.


To protect the new amphibious, sealift and afloat support ships from air and surface attack, the RAN is pushing ahead with construction of three large air warfare destroyers (AWDs) at a cost of A$4.5 billion-$6 billion. These ships, which can be more accurately described as sea control combatants, will displace 7,000-8,000 tonnes and be tasked with local and area air defence, provision of a co-ordinated air picture for the more effective deployment of fighter and surveillance aircraft, anti-surface warfare and naval gunfire support.


The RAN has already nominated the well-proven Aegis air warfare system as the core of the AWD's combat data and control system. This will be configured to fire both the short-range Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) and the longer-range Standard SM-2 missile. The ships may also be candidates to play a role in the US ballistic missile defence system, either as missile launch or sensor/tracking platform.


Two foreign shipyards (Izar and Blohm+Voss) and one ship designer (Gibbs & Cox) have been recruited to develop separate evolved AWD designs; all three are required to be baselined around the Aegis combat system. The preferred version of Aegis and AWD design will be announced in mid-2005. Delivery of the first AWD will take place in 2013.


The high-end bluewater combat capabilities of the AWD will add to the undersea prowess that already resides in the RAN's Collins-class diesel electric submarines, despite a troubled introduction into service. The Collins-class is now fulfilling its promise as the region's most advanced conventional submarine. All boats will receive the new Replacement Combat System (a version of Raytheon's Combat Control System Mk II currently being installed into the US Navy's (USN's) Virginia-class nuclear-powered attack submarines) before the end of this decade, ensuring that their position as the most formidable conventional submarine type in the Asian region is maintained for the foreseeable future.


The eight 3,600-ton Anzac-class frigates are to receive upgrades to their self-defence and anti-surface warfare capabilities and will begin taking on board the new SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite naval helicopter over the next 12 months. The SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite, the Anzac ship organic helicopter, will be armed with two Penguin Mk 2 Mod 7 anti-ship missiles to undertake over-the-horizon surface strike.


The most significant minor war vessel construction programme in Australia is the Replacement Patrol Boat project known as Sea 1444. This will consist of 12 57m Armidale-class patrol boats designed by Austal Ships, the first of which will be launched in January 2005 and delivered the following April. The government has pledged to build an additional two boats to patrol the resource-rich waters of the North West Shelf region of Western Australia.


Australian defence budgets


2004-05 A$16.35 billion


2003-04 A$15.8 billion


2002-03 A$14.6 billion


Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment - Oceania http://sentinel.janes.com




Good to see some new purchases by the ADF and also the realisation of issues seen by many for years and years.

Can I also ask people on the quality of ADF personel and warfighting capability. Man for Man i think us aussies could take anyone in the world, but what do others think?

marktigger
11-04-2004, 09:25 AM
looks like the Aussies have had some joined up thinking on defence unlike the UK and Buff Hoon and co.

maundy
11-04-2004, 09:32 AM
Being from convict blood, we think outside the box and do things in a way no one would expect, and thus we succeed.

ShotOver
11-04-2004, 09:34 AM
Mk19, on the ASLAAV. Sounds bloody good.

Ballistic
11-22-2004, 03:38 AM
Wow, good read (can't believe I missed this), thanks 3RAR. I particularly like the mention of the LHD's being used to carry F-35 STOVL variant. Fantastic news indeed. It, ofcourse, has to approved yet. No mention of replacement small arms for the Army ? I know I read somewhere that purchases of that kind were'nt in the books for a while yet, but I remember gruntsuck (I think it was him) mentioned that the Army was trialling some new small arms ? Is this till the case ?

Michael RVR
11-22-2004, 04:06 AM
Good read, not much i didn't already know woot

Don't know why they'd bother replacing the small arms, everything works as its need to, though then there is that SF obsession with the M-4. :roll:

The LHD's will be awsome, though according to the last issue of contact they wont have a ski-jump for STOVL fighters.. something i think they should change personally p-)

Ballistic
11-22-2004, 04:29 AM
Yeah I read that (nice mag hey :D), I think it would be a wasted piece of equipment should they not add the ski jump, as in not meeting it's full capabilities. The added firepower and air support the F-35's could give to both security of the ships and support to troops would be invaluable.

Any ideas when the F88-A4 is gonna come into service ? :)

http://www.adi-limited.com/pdfs/steyr_a4.pdf

plodey
11-22-2004, 07:29 PM
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/22/defence_toon.jpg

Falco
11-22-2004, 07:55 PM
Hope canada follows ...

DongFangBuBai
11-22-2004, 08:11 PM
The Aussies have nothing to worry about with regards to another state invading it. The "Sea-Air-Land" gap is enough to deter anyone in the region.

Aussies' willingness to partake in international affairs, though not benefitting directly from it, is often noteworthy and commendable. I believe the aussie warriors are top notched despite their relatively small size. The ferocity of Aussie troops is reknown.

IMHO, the Aussie forces should be structured to be nimble and ready to deploy to places like they are doing right now.

I will admit that I was hardly a fan of John Howard (was in ADFA, class of 95) and his foreign policy. Touting themselves as the "Sheriffs of Asia" did not go down well in the region. However, obviously he did something right to remain in office.

digrar
11-23-2004, 01:27 AM
Aussies' willingness to partake in international affairs, though not benefitting directly from it, is often noteworthy and commendable. I believe the aussie warriors are top notched despite their relatively small size. The ferocity of Aussie troops is reknown.

We just got a free trade agreement out of the Yanks, I bet that wouldn't have hapend if we hadn't gone to Iraq/Astan.

mocking_loudly_died
11-23-2004, 02:03 AM
It was pretty obvious that we went to Iraq to get the free trade agreement, not that I give a ****; it paid off + george thinks we f*cking pwn.

digrar
11-23-2004, 02:04 AM
Makes me wonder what we might have to do to get a FTA with China.

aussieslyfox
11-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Man for Man i think us aussies could take anyone in the world, but what do others think?

Actions always speak louder than words. We don't have to tell everyone what we already know. Just look at the statistics from the Battle of Long Tan in Vietnam. I think our big secret is "our mates". An old digger from WW1 was asked, "What made you get out of the trenches and do bayonet charges at the enemy?" His reply was simply,"I didn't want my mates to think I was a coward."

sp2c
11-23-2004, 10:54 AM
good job :)

I would've gone for new fighting vehicles instead of upgrading the m113 though is there more information about that upgrade?

marktigger
11-23-2004, 11:06 AM
yep
Warriors or CV90's would be a much better option than M113

Opening Batsman
11-23-2004, 06:20 PM
Man for Man i think us aussies could take anyone in the world, but what do others think?

Actions always speak louder than words. We don't have to tell everyone what we already know. Just look at the statistics from the Battle of Long Tan in Vietnam. I think our big secret is "our mates". An old digger from WW1 was asked, "What made you get out of the trenches and do bayonet charges at the enemy?" His reply was simply,"I didn't want my mates to think I was a coward."

Yeah, have you read any of the books about Kokoda? I have read a few, and it just goes to show how much strength and courage mateship can give you.

Ballistic
11-23-2004, 06:54 PM
Tenix is doing the upgrades for the M113's. Armour (I think), turret and other systems are being upgraded. The M113AS4 variant will be a stretched version increasing troop capacity. Pictures are hard to come by. But Tenix do have .pdf files advertising the upgrades.

I think purchasing better IFV's would have been better. Bradley, Warrior or CV90's as MARK.TIGGER suggested would have been smart choices. I just hope the new version come with an "uparmour" addon, because they are going to need it.

Michael RVR
11-23-2004, 08:28 PM
Yeah i agree, CV90's would have been nice.. but its all a question of what we can afford with the budget we have. For capability vs price - the M113AS4's arent bad ;)

Plus everyone already knows how to use them, maintain them, and will have some spares commonality.

It makes sense i think. ;)

Bear in mind as well the ASLAV production line still hasn't stopped AFAIK ;)

aussieslyfox
11-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Yeah, have you read any of the books about Kokoda? I have read a few, and it just goes to show how much strength and courage mateship can give you.

I have read a few books about the Kokoda Trail and the deeds of our soldiers in PNG. I read a book called "The Silent Men: Syria to Kokoda and on to Gona" (I think that was the name).
It is about the most decorated section in the Australian Army during WW2. They fought in the Middle East and came back and fought on the Kokoda trail. There is a part in there about one group who gets cut off from their mates and had to get back to the coast by themselves. One of the party had been shot through both ankles with a machine gun and he refused to be carried on a stretcher. He rathered men have hands on guns. This soldier improvised hand and knee pads and crawled half way across PNG. It also said that if one of the party was doing it tough they would just look at this bloke on his hands and knee with shattered ankles and they knew they were doing it easy. I will always remember what all past and present Diggers have done for this country. We owe them a debt of gratitiude.

I think our dedication to our country has a lot to do with our attitudes. I blew out 2 discs in my back and pinched a nerve just getting fit to go to boot camp. The Doc said it was something to do with running with too much weight in my pack. The injury now prevents me from serving my country, but I was still in the recruiting centre on the second day of the Iraq War. If it was good enough for my forefathers to volunteer to fight, it is good enough for my generation. You were sent a white feather (symbol of cowardice) in the mail if you didn't volunteer in the old days, but it wouldn't happen now, there are not enough feathers to go around.

Silverado
11-23-2004, 10:44 PM
All well and good for the most part. The article however seems to skirt the growing problem of arrogance within Senator Hill's dept. The ongoing saga of the F-111 is increasingly becoming an embarresement to the government and senior beurocrats within the ADF. Not because its old and obsolete, quite the opposit in fact. You can 'soup-up' the Hornets untill the cows come home the fact remains they were designed as a light weight carrier based fighter/attack aircraft, not a regional bomber. To prematurely retire the F-111 without a viable replacement will see a drastic reduction in the RAAF's long-range strike capability. A JASSM/SLAM-ER equiped Hornet is no panacea, a JASSM equiped F-111 on the other hand...

Thus far the government and beurocrats/senior staff officers within the ADF have totally failed in presenting any viable arguement as to why the F-111, which still remains arguably the most effective 'In Theatre bomber' the world has seen, should be put out to pasture (before it's time). Their case has been purely emotive, to say the least. For those interested in the rebuttal arguments to the governments stance Air Power Australia (http://www.ausairpower.net/) is a good place to see where were at, and where were going. The full consequences of this government's attitude towards the Pigs could well have serious ramifications in the years ahead. One can only hope that sanity prevails and a review of this governments defense aquisition procedures is held.

Opening Batsman
11-23-2004, 10:59 PM
Yeah, have you read any of the books about Kokoda? I have read a few, and it just goes to show how much strength and courage mateship can give you.

I have read a few books about the Kokoda Trail and the deeds of our soldiers in PNG. I read a book called "The Silent Men: Syria to Kokoda and on to Gona" (I think that was the name).
It is about the most decorated section in the Australian Army during WW2. They fought in the Middle East and came back and fought on the Kokoda trail. There is a part in there about one group who gets cut off from their mates and had to get back to the coast by themselves. One of the party had been shot through both ankles with a machine gun and he refused to be carried on a stretcher. He rathered men have hands on guns. This soldier improvised hand and knee pads and crawled half way across PNG. It also said that if one of the party was doing it tough they would just look at this bloke on his hands and knee with shattered ankles and they knew they were doing it easy. I will always remember what all past and present Diggers have done for this country. We owe them a debt of gratitiude.

I think our dedication to our country has a lot to do with our attitudes. I blew out 2 discs in my back and pinched a nerve just getting fit to go to boot camp. The Doc said it was something to do with running with too much weight in my pack. The injury now prevents me from serving my country, but I was still in the recruiting centre on the second day of the Iraq War. If it was good enough for my forefathers to volunteer to fight, it is good enough for my generation. You were sent a white feather (symbol of cowardice) in the mail if you didn't volunteer in the old days, but it wouldn't happen now, there are not enough feathers to go around.

The one including VC winner Bruce Kingsbury. :)
I am planning on walking the track in a few years time. :D

Nizark
11-23-2004, 11:21 PM
hahaha duck and cover indonesia!

Ballistic
11-24-2004, 07:53 AM
All well and good for the most part. The article however seems to skirt the growing problem of arrogance within Senator Hill's dept. The ongoing saga of the F-111 is increasingly becoming an embarresement to the government and senior beurocrats within the ADF. Not because its old and obsolete, quite the opposit in fact. You can 'soup-up' the Hornets untill the cows come home the fact remains they were designed as a light weight carrier based fighter/attack aircraft, not a regional bomber. To prematurely retire the F-111 without a viable replacement will see a drastic reduction in the RAAF's long-range strike capability. A JASSM/SLAM-ER equiped Hornet is no panacea, a JASSM equiped F-111 on the other hand...

Thus far the government and beurocrats/senior staff officers within the ADF have totally failed in presenting any viable arguement as to why the F-111, which still remains arguably the most effective 'In Theatre bomber' the world has seen, should be put out to pasture (before it's time). Their case has been purely emotive, to say the least. For those interested in the rebuttal arguments to the governments stance Air Power Australia (http://www.ausairpower.net/) is a good place to see where were at, and where were going. The full consequences of this government's attitude towards the Pigs could well have serious ramifications in the years ahead. One can only hope that sanity prevails and a review of this governments defense aquisition procedures is held.

I'll quote a RAAF F-111 pilot when I asked him what he thought about the replacement of the F-111.


The F-111 is better (for long range bombing), but there's only so many upgrades you can do before the wings start falling off...

The F-111 is beyond a doubt the best piece of kit the RAAF (or anyone in SE A) has for long range bombing, but the aircraft can only undergo so many upgrades and structural enhancements before the stresses already on the aircraft start tearing it apart. It's good, but it's bloody old.

Silverado
11-24-2004, 10:03 PM
Wing fatigue with F-111's is a well documented fact. However it really isn't an issue as there is a ready supply of mothballed wings at AMARC, many with less than 2000 flight hours. In terms of fatigue life that is 'as new' condition. In 1999 when Boeing took over maintenance of the Pigs under the Sole Operator Program aircraft availability skyrocketed in short order. This wasn't because they had suddenly found new ways of maintaining the aircraft but rather they were instituting maintenance programs that were being neglected by the ADF through the course of the 90's.

When its all said and done the issue is not so mutch that the Pigs are old but rather what are we going to replace them with. The JSF may well be seen by many as a logical choice to replace the RAAF's F/A-18 Hornet fleet, but it will never replace the F-111. Untill the government gets out of this archaic mentality that one aircraft can do it all then the RAAF's role in any future conflict that Australia may be involved with will be one of second teir support. With the F-111 Australia has been able to walk softly while carrying a big stick in the forms of the Pigs. The Howard government seems hell bent on sabre rattling within our region while at the same time it is going out of its way to effectivly sabotage the RAAF's ability to back up John Howards 'bluster'.

Ballistic
11-25-2004, 12:10 AM
I agree with ya mate, the Pig is an excellent aircraft and it's a crime that it's being mothballed.