Group of Israeli Pilots Refuse to Carry Out Airstrikes

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030925/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_pilots__protest_2


By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - A group of reserve air force pilots drew condemnation Thursday for refusing to carry out airstrikes in Palestinian areas, but their unprecedented protest set off an emotional debate on the ethics of the targeted killings of militants.


Pilots are held in the highest regard in Israel and their views carry considerable weight, since their skill and audacity are seen as key to the country's survival.


Several hundred Israelis have refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza in recent years, and there have been protests such as last weekend's Tel Aviv rally in which several thousand called for ending the occupation of the areas. But Israelis generally support the military's actions as needed to curb terror attacks, and no major anti-war movement has emerged.


Wednesday's signed declaration condemning the airstrikes shook the nation and also raised new questions about the limits of protest in the military. The air force commander, Maj. Gen. Dan Halutz, said the signatories would be punished — possibly jailed — and accused them of playing politics rather than grappling with genuine moral dilemmas.


The group of 27 is informally led by Brig. Gen. Yiftah Spector, a highly decorated retired pilot who, according to Israeli media reports, participated in the bombing of the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.


Nine of the pilots are still on active duty.


In their petition, the pilots said airstrikes on crowded Palestinian areas are "illegal and immoral." They also condemn Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, saying it corrupts Israeli society.


In the past three years of fighting, Israeli pilots have carried out hundreds of airstrikes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites), targeting Palestinian police installations and weapons workshops of militants.


The most controversial of the airstrikes involve targeted killings, in which helicopters — and sometimes warplanes — fire rockets and bombs at cars and homes of Palestinian militants.


In the past three years, some 140 wanted men have been killed in targeted raids, not all of them airstrikes, according to Palestinian medical officials, though the figure also includes those killed resisting arrest. More than 100 bystanders have also died, according to the medical officials.


The Israeli public, traumatized by a Palestinian suicide bombing campaign that has killed hundreds of civilians since September 2000, largely supports the army's tough measures, including the targeted killings, widely referred to in Hebrew as "liquidations."


The rebel pilots were lambasted Thursday in commentary in newspapers and radio talk shows. Critics accused the pilots of being immature, naive or having a secret political agenda.


Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) was quoted as saying the protest was a "grave matter" and would be dealt with swiftly. Former Israeli President Ezer Weizman, who commanded the air force in the 1960s, said the pilots' stance was immoral, and belittled their apparent idealism as a "holier-than-thou attitude."


Veteran journalist Dan Margalit wrote in a front-page commentary in the Maariv daily that the pilots abused their exalted standing.


"If their idea is accepted, Ahmed Yassin and his compatriots in the Hamas leadership will be able to plan the next murder of Jewish children on a Jerusalem bus without interference," Margalit wrote in a reference to a mid-August bus bombing by Hamas that killed 23 bus passengers, six of them children.


In response to that bombing, Israel accelerated its targeted attacks, killing 13 Hamas members and six bystanders in nearly a dozen airstrikes in Gaza City. Yassin, the Hamas founder and spiritual leader, himself survived an attack earlier this month.


The letter of protest marked the first time pilots have come out openly against air force policy. In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, some pilots expressed reservations about bombing cities and refugee camps, but did not go public.





Halutz, the air force commander, played down the importance of the protest, saying the pilots were only a handful among thousands.

"Refusal shouldn't be an issue in our army, especially not if we didn't ask these people to do anything immoral or illegal as they said in the letter," Halutz said.

However, some warned the protest could spread because of growing unease in the armed forces over military strikes that have failed to stop terror attacks.

"Today, in light of pointless military operations ... people are beginning to ask questions," wrote military commentator Alex Fishman in the Yediot Ahronot daily. "And these (the pilots) are the very best people we have. We can ground them, and we can lock them up, but we cannot ignore the questions they ask."

Col. Uri Dromi, another air force reservist, added that "when the time comes, say, to remove settlers from their homes, other people in the army or in the air force will say they don't want to obey these orders in the same way."

"So once you start this, there is an erosion of the rule of law here of the whole democratic elements of the regime, and this is the end of the democratic structure in Israel," Dromi said.

Yediot said dozens of Apache helicopter pilots, who carry out the bulk of the airstrikes, have met with their wing commander to express their concerns. One participant said he was not convinced of the justice of his missions, Yediot said, and others complained that they were given bad intelligence that could endanger civilians.

The rebel pilots could not be reached for comment Thursday, but Lt. Col. Zeev Rotem, a retired combat navigator speaking on their behalf, said the norms of the air force have changed in recent years.

"Today, we attack places where there are civilians, women and children, with the prior knowledge that ... there is a great chance they will be killed," Rotem told Israel Radio. The protest, he said, is a desperate attempt "to make the army, the government and the citizens ... stop this crazy cycle that has hijacked this country."

A watershed, for some pilots, apparently was last year's attack on Salah Shehadeh, leader of the Hamas military wing. A one-ton bomb killed Shehadeh, an assistant and also 14 civilians, nine of them children.

Halutz said at the time that he felt the bombing was morally correct.

[Fargin]

Ty -interesting read.

[UoUo]

bunch of ******

:bash:

[He219]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=thumb&id=428574http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=thumb&id=428572


"We, who have been educated to love the state of Israel ... refuse to take part in Air Force attacks in civilian population centres. We ... refuse to continue harming innocent civilians."

The television station said almost half of those who signed the petition were flying missions once or twice a week. Israeli reserve pilots can be called upon to fly in military operations.

Israel's Army chief, Moshe Ya'alon, said the pilots, who include senior reserve officers, could be punished for what he called their illegitimate and forbidden statement.

Israel has an active group of conscientious objectors who have refused to serve in Palestinian territories, but the letter marks the first time that pilots have protested in a separate group.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3525537&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

[IDFM203]

The Foreign Ministry is gearing up to deal with fallout abroad from what at least one major media outlook, the BBC, has termed the "rebel Israeli pilots."

"What rebellion," said Gideon Meir, the Foreign Minister's deputy director general for Public Affairs. "This is no rebellion, out of thousands of pilots, 27 came out and said this."

The problem for Israel, Meir said, is that the letter will be exploited by Israel's enemies abroad to bash the country.

The ministry issued guidelines to its missions abroad stressing that the pilots represent a tiny minority of the Air Force, that Israel is the world's only democracy dealing with fanatical terrorism on a daily basis, and that while the terrorists target civilians, Israel takes great pains to avoid harming civilians even as the terrorists burrow themselves among the civilian population.

"The day I see a Palestinian official on BBC or CNN stirring up an internal debate on the killing of Israeli citizens, then I will know that they are also part of the family of nations," Meir said. "As long as that doesn't happen, I ask the foreign media to put it all in context."

Though the debate over the issue shows the vibrancy of Israel's democracy, Meir said this is not how it will be portrayed abroad.

"It is not as if we are going to get credit in the world because we have a political debate about this in Israel," Meir said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1064470661430


Their revolt came as Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon credited the policy of targeted assassination with the relative lull in terror attacks.

"The policy of targeted interception has caused terrorist elements to dig in," he told Army Radio.
The air force carries out most targeted assassinations, albeit most of these have been carried out by a small group of attack helicopter pilots and select F-16 pilots.


Senior officers said they never even received the letter formally. They dismissed the group as mainly retired airmen.
"A majority of these guys left the air force years ago. This is a cynical and unfair use of their IAF past to express a political opinion," Deputy OC Air Force Brig.-Gen. Eliezer Shkedi told The Jerusalem Post.

"What they said in their letter was morally wrong. The moral level of the air force and the IDF is extremely high. It is impossible to describe the efforts we make to prevent harming innocent people.

There have been lots of occasions in which attacks were not carried out or delayed because we did not want to hurt innocent civilians."
Shkedi also stressed that those being targeted are arch-murderers whose aim is to murder Israeli families everywhere.

"Our aim is to prevent them from succeeding," he said. "Our role is to defend the only Jewish state and its citizens, and we will continue to do this with all our heart and soul. I feel I speak for most of the air force and IDF."

Shkedi said that the revolt by the 27 pilots would not have any tactical impact, since most of them are no longer flying. He also believes that their sentiments are not shared by other pilots. (which indeed is true, for thousands of IAF personal and pilots did not sign it nor share those sentiments of those few)

He said that most of the pilots who signed the letters have not participated in any air force attacks in many, many years and did not likely know the particulars. He said the air force would weigh the issue in the coming days and decide what steps if any would be taken against them. Shkedi was also critical of the way the pilots turned first to the media, instead of raising their concerns in house.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1064373874814

[ArmoredDov_D9]

First, only 9 of them are in active service (i.e. fly aircrafts regulary) and most of them never been ordered to target senior terrorist (most of the signers were ex-combat pilots and cargo-pilots). Some of them are known radical-left activists.

Secondly, their refuse of order is illegal since they are not ordered to bomb civilian but to attack known terrorists. Moreover, their use their military status to promote a political idealogy - that's forbidden and undemocratic.

Thirdly, Moreover, the MP have opened investigation against the refuser in illegal use of their flight-uniforms and military status to promot others to revolt and refuse order.

Fourthly, most of the IAF pilots, mainly the Helicopter-Gunships (HG) pilots (who perform almost all the target killings of senior terrorists in the Gaza) are refrained from the refusal and denounce the refusers. The HG pilot told that a trageted cirurgical hit in a dangerous terrorists is legal and moral and prevent the terrorists from carry out his planned terror attack. They told also that their doing their best efforts in order to minimize the chances civilians will get hurt. They also said that there were time they cancel a strike because the terrorist blended himself with many civilians. The HG pilots concluded that they will continue to carry out targeted strikes against terrorists.
Overall, the HG pilots feel betrayed by the refusers and vowed to keep hiting terrorist and carry out their duty to defend Israel.
Many other pilots joined the HG pilots in denouncing the refuser.
(taken from an interview in Channel 2 News broadcast)

Fifthly, International Law states that is legal and legitimate to strike a military target (including terrorist targets), even if it situated in a middle of civilian population. The Law urges the attacker to carry the attack in a manner that will minimize civilian casualties.

[He219]

The pilots initially considered joining one of
the existing refusal movements, such as Courage
to Refuse - the group of soldiers and officers
who signed a declaration of refusal to serve in
the territories more than 18 months ago.
However, they eventually decided to form an
independent group.

Since Courage to Refuse was founded, with 50
members, more than 500 soldiers have signed its
letter of refusal. However, the group has
failed in its goal of provoking a public
discourse over the continued occupation of the
territories and Israel Defense Forces actions
there. It is now hoping that the pilots'
declaration will succeed where it has failed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/342136.html


Unease widely shared:

Former air force commander Major General Amos Lapidot said that while the pilots were in a minority their unease was widely shared.

"It's a minority but it's not just limited to those 27," he said. "Others feel this in their stomach."

Yael Paz-Melamed, a columnist for the Maariv daily, said the writing had been on the wall for a long time.

"In private conversations, more and more pilots voiced their disgruntlement with the assassination missions they were sent on," he wrote.

"From the F-16 jet, one does not see the white in the victims' eyes. One cannot hear the outcries, the pain, the wails of the wounded. One does not see the children bleeding to death. But people who do not turn their back on their conscience, know that this is not the reason that they joined the Air Force."
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1421617,00.html

[IDFM203]

Unease widely shared:

Former air force commander Major General Amos Lapidot said that while the pilots were in a minority their unease was widely shared.

"It's a minority but it's not just limited to those 27," he said. "Others feel this in their stomach."

Yael Paz-Melamed, a columnist for the Maariv daily, said the writing had been on the wall for a long time.

"In private conversations, more and more pilots voiced their disgruntlement with the assassination missions they were sent on," he wrote.

"From the F-16 jet, one does not see the white in the victims' eyes. One cannot hear the outcries, the pain, the wails of the wounded. One does not see the children bleeding to death. But people who do not turn their back on their conscience, know that this is not the reason that they joined the Air Force."
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1421617,00.html

Yes and that’s this ones mans opinion. I have also brought down opinions that differ with him, besides even if the number is higher then 27, these types of refusincs in percentage terms are an extreme minority of the Israeli air force. So I don’t care if you tell me five more singed this for out of thousands of air force personal, their percentage number is pretty small

Oh and here is a repost of a general that disagrees with this one mans opinion.


Senior officers said they never even received the letter formally. They dismissed the group as mainly retired airmen.
"A majority of these guys left the air force years ago. This is a cynical and unfair use of their IAF past to express a political opinion," Deputy OC Air Force Brig.-Gen. Eliezer Shkedi told The Jerusalem Post.

"What they said in their letter was morally wrong. The moral level of the air force and the IDF is extremely high. It is impossible to describe the efforts we make to prevent harming innocent people.

There have been lots of occasions in which attacks were not carried out or delayed because we did not want to hurt innocent civilians."
Shkedi also stressed that those being targeted are arch-murderers whose aim is to murder Israeli families everywhere.

"Our aim is to prevent them from succeeding," he said. "Our role is to defend the only Jewish state and its citizens, and we will continue to do this with all our heart and soul. I feel I speak for most of the air force and IDF."

Shkedi said that the revolt by the 27 pilots would not have any tactical impact, since most of them are no longer flying. He also believes that their sentiments are not shared by other pilots. (which indeed is true, for thousands of IAF personal and pilots did not sign it nor share those sentiments of those few)

He said that most of the pilots who signed the letters have not participated in any air force attacks in many, many years and did not likely know the particulars. He said the air force would weigh the issue in the coming days and decide what steps if any would be taken against them. Shkedi was also critical of the way the pilots turned first to the media, instead of raising their concerns in house.

[Operation Ivy]

Im not trying to be mean...but its ok not be perfect all u Isreali guys ;)

[Andyman]

That was a very gutsy move by those pilots and they get my deepest respects, it takes balls to do that. These pilots are taking a step in the right direction if you think about it. Peace will come this way, I'm sure that some Palistinians will now think twice before they blow up a bus or a cafe or something. The only way to get respect is to give it. These men are revolutionary cause whatever both sides are doing thus far, have clearly not worked.

[jdbjdb]

how many apache's does Israel have?
the AH-64 Longbow Apache is so much better then the cobra

[Trigger]

I'm sure that some Palistinians will now think twice before they blow up a bus or a cafe or something.
Yeah, and in between the first and second thought they'll whisper "suckers", giggle and continue with their suicide/homicide mission.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

how many apache's does Israel have?
the AH-64 Longbow Apache is so much better then the cobra

I request everyone here not to answer this question. Exposing such details can damage Info Security.

(However, you can bring links to foreign sources such as Janes or different Research Institutes that are open to the wide public. The figures they've got are only estimations and there isn't 100% certainty about them.)

[jdbjdb]

I request everyone here not to answer this question. Exposing such details can damage Info Security
Yeah your right, I shouldn't have asked that type question

That was a very gutsy move by those pilots and they get my deepest respects, it takes balls to do that. These pilots are taking a step in the right direction if you think about it
It was a bad move, in a time of war, no country wants it's pilots to refuse their duty, they went about all this the wrong way, take it up with the chain of command and not the media.

[UoUo]

That was a very gutsy move by those pilots and they get my deepest respects, it takes balls to do that. These pilots are taking a step in the right direction if you think about it. Peace will come this way, I'm sure that some Palistinians will now think twice before they blow up a bus or a cafe or something. The only way to get respect is to give it. These men are revolutionary cause whatever both sides are doing thus far, have clearly not worked.


After what you said about hitler...we should't even have to reply to your words....



nazi.

:bash:

[Fargin]

nazi.

Yelling Nazi in a internet discussion equals yelling Uncle.



Peace out :oops:

[Apogee]

Ok, i'm not pro- or anti- zionist, but I respect and agree with these pilots. If an officer receives a mission which he feels is illegal or imoral then it is his duty not to carry out that mission. It doesn't always happen (can you say mi lie?) but its the right thing to do.

2nd - I don't think the law of land warfare would encourage the given mission. One of the main principles of the LLW is proporionate (sp?) force. If a sniper from a village takes out a member of your platoon, you don't call in arty(or bulldozers for that matter) to level the village. Thats not proportionate force. Instead you should respond with counter sniper fire or flank the village and find and kill the sniper. In this case I don't think the IDF was doing ALL that it could to minimise civilian causulties.

By no means an I a JAG lawyer or an expert on military law, but thats just my 2 cents.

[IDFM203]

Ok, i'm not pro- or anti- zionist, but I respect and agree with these pilots. If an officer receives a mission which he feels is illegal or imoral then it is his duty not to carry out that mission. It doesn't always happen (can you say mi lie?) but its the right thing to do.

2nd - I don't think the law of land warfare would encourage the given mission. One of the main principles of the LLW is proporionate (sp?) force. If a sniper from a village takes out a member of your platoon, you don't call in arty(or bulldozers for that matter) to level the village. Thats not proportionate force. Instead you should respond with counter sniper fire or flank the village and find and kill the sniper. In this case I don't think the IDF was doing ALL that it could to minimise civilian causulties.

By no means an I a JAG lawyer or an expert on military law, but thats just my 2 cents.Are you sure you are at west point?!? :roll:

On principle you are correct in that a soldier should refuse an order that is not morally correct.

This is not the case here. What we have here is 20 retired plus 9 active air force personal who made a political statement in middle of a war in which they are in stark disagreement with most other pilots who strongly disagree and that in fact contend that what they have been doing is indeed very moral.

You see what you have to understand is that Israel being a conscript army, this means that the army is really made up of all the people and as you know there is a divide in Israeli society (right wing and left wing) of how to deal with the Palestinians.

What is clear here is that these pilots went against the moral and ethics of a war and have now tried to make a political statement which is inline with their beliefs of which they had before they went to the army. This simply cannot be tolerable for there are also people on the right who believe that evacuating settlements is morally wrong and that if given that order will try to refuse.

Being that the Israeli society is very fragmented and especially considering the reality of the terrible security situation that israel has had to face for the past fifty years, there has to be a no politics rule and that has to be strictly adhered to or other wise the military will fall into a trap of constantly dealing with both sides extremes and refusals and it wont be able to function.

Oh and let me just respond to this paragraph..
2nd - I don't think the law of land warfare would encourage the given mission. One of the main principles of the LLW is proporionate (sp?) force. If a sniper from a village takes out a member of your platoon, you don't call in arty(or bulldozers for that matter) to level the village. Thats not proportionate force. Instead you should respond with counter sniper fire or flank the village and find and kill the sniper. In this case I don't think the IDF was doing ALL that it could to minimise civilian causulties. now you tell me one case where the idf used a bulldozer or artliary to take out a village. No that is what your military did in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Belive me, the Israeli army has shown much more restraint then the U.S. army has shown and that is also including after the core war was fought. I could go off on a rant here how the U.S. has dropped large bombs (much bigger then Israel has ever used) just on one individual target and it has indeed done so in a crowded area.. How incredulous it is for you to lecture Israel here. In fact that lie (level a villige) is so preposterous that I can only wonder if you are really at west point or if indeed you are in west bank school of hamas for only there will you learn such outrages lies.

A, artillery has not been used in this conflict!!! B, a bulldozer has only been used to either destroy ONE house either becouse it was the house of a suicide bomber or a house that was constantly being used as sniper cover for Palestinian gunman.

[S'13]

USMA_SCUBA wrote

Ok, i'm not pro- or anti- zionist, but I respect and agree with these pilots. If an officer receives a mission which he feels is illegal or imoral then it is his duty not to carry out that mission. It doesn't always happen (can you say mi lie?) but its the right thing to do.

2nd - I don't think the law of land warfare would encourage the given mission. One of the main principles of the LLW is proporionate (sp?) force. If a sniper from a village takes out a member of your platoon, you don't call in arty(or bulldozers for that matter) to level the village. Thats not proportionate force. Instead you should respond with counter sniper fire or flank the village and find and kill the sniper. In this case I don't think the IDF was doing ALL that it could to minimise civilian causulties.

By no means an I a JAG lawyer or an expert on military law, but thats just my 2 cents.

If a person feels the orders he is geting are illigal what is he doing in the air force anyway? these people never even gave examples of "illigale orders" they recived. What is illigale anyway? these pilots are not orderd to target civilians but to target terrorists.
When did the IDF level a village?! If an armed terrorist, or a few armed terrorists are hiding in a building and there are no civilians inside and you can't take them out with a sniper and you tell the the terrorists to give them selfs up and they don't. In such a situation the only way to get them is by sending your men into the building OR bring in a D9 to destroy the building with minimum casualties to your men. Wouldn't you do this? Not long ago an Israeli soldier died in such an action when his commander decided to send his men into a building in which an armed terrorist was hiding. The soldier looked down the buildings elevator shaft to see if the terrorist was hiding there (he was...) and was shot and killed. If the commander had just called in a D9 or blow up the building, the soldier would have still been alive today. When we try to minimise civilian causulties we sometimes pay with the blood of our men.

[Apogee]

I'm pretty sure this is West Point, or someone has done a pretty good job of deceiving me.

I'm not exactly how perceiving an order as immoral can be viewed as a political move. I'd agree that the retired pilots are very much making a political move. Heres where I'm a little confused though, I'm under the impression that these 9 pilots were given a mission and refused to carry it out. It seems like you seem to be saying that they are just objecting to the general strategy. If thats the case then they shouldn't be protesting, especially while in uniform.

And the thing about arty and dozers. I wasn't trying to imply that the IDF had used either in this situation but was simply trying to make an example to explain my postition on propurtionate use of force.

Lastly, I think you're misinformed about the US's use of aircraft delivered munitions. My impression of the bombing campaign in Afganistan is that while large munitions were used, they were used against cave complexes deep in the mountains, not in cities. When targets had to be destroyed in the Iraq war, precision guided munitions were used, not helicopter strafing runs. Just my thoughts as always. Try not to get so bent out of shape when someone argues with you.

[S'13]

When targets had to be destroyed in the Iraq war, precision guided munitions were used, not helicopter strafing runs.

Maybe you don't know this but when targeting a terrorist the IAF uses Hellfire missiles which are laser guided and very precise.

[IDFM203]

Lastly, I think you're misinformed about the US's use of aircraft delivered munitions. My impression of the bombing campaign in Afganistan is that while large munitions were used, they were used against cave complexes deep in the mountains, not in cities. When targets had to be destroyed in the Iraq war, precision guided munitions were used, not helicopter strafing runs. Just my thoughts as always. Try not to get so bent out of shape when someone argues with you.Well I do in fact get bent out of shape when you clearly insinuate that the idf flattens villages and that it uses artillery on these villages,.It is very clear that you have tried to link the idf to these false lies.

I actually agree with both U.S. campaigns and that is because they aren’t as restrained as the Israeli army is. And yes the U.S. has used huge bombs that they dropped on a whole building (not just mere caves) that did in fact go after only one individual. if you want to go further here in this little debate here I am all for it for I am more then ready to show you how the U.S. has been much more aggressive then Israel has been.

Israel has never gone on any strafing runs nor has it bulldozed a village. To actually insinuate that actually does make me question you west point credentials. I mean that is indeed a great school of which I have great respect for, rather then lose respect for that great institution I give the benefit of the doubt that it is you that is not there for those lies that you have insinuated here, I am sure are in clear contrast to what any sane west point grad would sprout. I am not being harsh here and I can tolerate simple disagreement and I am all for it but when clear lies are presented, that my friend is a whole other ball game

Israel in most cases uses these highly sophisticated weapons systems (like the apache) to limit the loss of human life for these systems or very accurate indeed.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

If a person feels the orders he is geting are illigal what is he doing in the air force anyway? these people never even gave examples of "illigale orders" they recived. What is illigale anyway? these pilots are not orderd to target civilians but to target terrorists.
When did the IDF level a village?! If an armed terrorist, or a few armed terrorists are hiding in a building and there are no civilians inside and you can't take them out with a sniper and you tell the the terrorists to give them selfs up and they don't. In such a situation the only way to get them is by sending your men into the building OR bring in a D9 to destroy the building with minimum casualties to your men. Wouldn't you do this? Not long ago an Israeli soldier died in such an action when his commander decided to send his men into a building in which an armed terrorist was hiding. The soldier looked down the buildings elevator shaft to see if the terrorist was hiding there (he was...) and was shot and killed. If the commander had just called in a D9 or blow up the building, the soldier would have still been alive today. When we try to minimise civilian causulties we sometimes pay with the blood of our men.

For example, here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3876&sid=a8da74fd6db7831b64095301da84d02b

Another usage of the D9s is to dentonate belly charges or other type of explosives. It does it all the time in the Gaza and the in Jenin the D9 bulldozer detonated hundreds of explosives boody-traps. Sometimes, when the D9 comes to raze down a house it accidently activates the explosives set by the terrorists and the whole building collapses much faster than the conventional way.

[Argyll]

Armd Dov,
There is plenty of info on the net,and available to ansewr the Questions abput the choppers,even media links will give an enemy an idea of what is the better of the 2!
By saying its an OPSEC is incorrect,and you rightly said there is info availabe from Janes etc..........so why would answering be wrong,all you need to do is search these forums,the answers are also here,if the information is available...........no breach!
Actually to be quite honest with you,I really do think that any enemys Intelligence will have that information to a much higher degree,and can't see any Foriegn State browsing a Military Photos site for good intelligence sources!!!

[ArmoredDov_D9]

It is better not to take chances. Whatever other got on the OPSEC is someone claims that the enemy must varify for himself. The enemy is not only countries with armies and secret services but also terrorists organization who base their attacks mainly on OPSEC.

[Argyll]

I can see the point if this kit is Top secret,but like I said,the answers have been spread across the media outlets since day 1 of the war in Iraq,hell even Al Jazeera will have known this and if they felt it prudent,I'm sure that info would've been passed onwards long long ago.
My personal Opinion is that there is no OPSEC breach if you were to answer the question...........as the information is out there already!
Infact there is a superb post here in the forums somewhere about the tactics used during an engagement involving a certain type,that resulted in 90% of them recieving sustained ground fire,which was a joke.!!
I think there's more a security issue if you were to discuss the tactics involved,used by Choppers than saying which one is the better!,and even at that,all you need to do is go out and buy Janes Apache Longbow for the PC,and it tells you the tactics........all that from a computer Simulation!!

[Apogee]

If you are interpreting my example of disportionate use of force as me trying to insinuate that Israel is in the regular practice of using artillary on civilian populations, then you've misinterpreted what I ment.

I was using it as an example. Trying to help everyone understand what a disportionate use of force is.

Thats all. Lighten up a little.

[IDFM203]

If a sniper from a village takes out a member of your platoon, you don't call in arty(or bulldozers for that matter) to level the village . Thats not proportionate force. Instead you should respond with counter sniper fire or flank the village and find and kill the sniper. In this case I don't think the IDF was doing ALL that it could to minimise civilian causulties.

You know benefit of the doubt only goes so far. I looked at what you said again and it seems pretty clear that you tried to link Israel or at least insinuate it with some of these bad incidents.

Now I will lighten up next time when you make yourself more clearer (if indeed it was a misunderstanding on my part)

[Mortimer]

good on them showing some ****ing initiative.

Anyone whos doesn't see this as a good thing should ask themselves ....something....

[Andyman]

now now no labeling UoUo. It was a viewpoint and in now way did I say that I wished that he had won so back off, and dnt be so defensive. I have been known to say things that seem a little out there but its just some input from the other side. There is no benefit in being a NAZI today so why would I be one. Nazism came and died with Hitler in WW2.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Update about the original topic:



Signatory of pilots' letter says regrets signing petition

By Amos Harel and Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondents, and Haaretz Service

Colonel Ran, one of the 27 signatories of the pilots' letter of refusal, in which they stated that they would not participate in operations in
the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said Sunday he regretted signing the letter, and was changing his mind.

The move came after a slew of criticism of the pilots' move from government figures and from fellow Israel Air Force airmen.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, speaking in a holiday interview
to Israel Radio on Friday condemned the letter, saying it
reminded him that there had also been an attempt to overthrow
a democratically-elected government during the 1982 Lebanon War.

Sharon's comments were an apparent reference to the Amram
Mitzan's decision to resign during the Lebanon War. Mitzna was commander of the IDF Command College at the time.

Mitzna cited the behavior of then defense minister Sharon during
the invasion of Israel's northern neighbor, in particular regarding
the massacres in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, as the
reasons for his decision.

The signatories to the letter wrote they would refuse to take part in aerial attacks on populated Palestinian areas in the territories.

"We, both veteran and active pilots, who have served and who still serve the state of Israel, are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral
orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," the letter states.

"We, for whom the IDF and the air force are an integral part
of our being, refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians...
The continued occupation is critically harming the country's
security" and moral fiber, it added.

The Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee said Thursday
it would meet next week to discuss the letter. The committee
will meet next Tuesday, following the Rosh Hashanah holiday.

Also Thursday, Air Force Commander-in-Chief Major General
Dan Halutz issued an order to ground the 27 signatories -
nine of whom are still on active duty - who signed the letter,
details of which were published last week in Haaretz.

On Thursday, seven Air Force pilots sent a letter to Halutz
rejecting the pilots' refusal to serve in the territories, saying
they were not doing anything immoral by operating in the territories.

Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein said Thursday that any
IDF activity that is conducted according to the directives of the
Judge Advocate General Corps, the attorney general's office and the Supreme Court is legal.

Rubinstein said that although the army does not generally consult
with the attorney general's office before a specific operation, legal
experts do conduct discussions and issue instructions on issues such
as the extent the army should go to aovid wounding innocent
civilians during an operation.

After the Israel Defense Forces attempted to assassinate Hamas
spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin about three weeks ago, military leaders said the reason the operation had failed was that the army used a relatively small explosive device so as to minimize civilian casualties.

Halutz told Haaretz on Wednesday night he planned to treat the signatories "in the same way as the IDF has dealt with refuseniks
until now. This method has proven itself."

He called the refusal to serve "the mother of all dangers" to Israel.

The nine pilots will be called to meetings with the heads of their
bases in the coming days. If they do not retract their statement,
they will be dismissed from active service.

Halutz has also ordered the grounding of those pilots who signed the letter and who currently serve as flight instructors at the flight
school at the Hatzerim base in the south of the country.
"These are not the people who should educate the next generation of pilots," Halutz said.


Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/343998.html

[Haiw]

according to sales data they should have ah-64D 54 longbows (some of em bought as longbows, some of em as modified ah-64a's)

cudnt find anything on ah-64a's