French card deck names 'most dangerous' U.S. leaders

[96B]

The ace of spades? Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld gets the honor in a new French deck of cards. President Bush is the king of diamonds and Osama bin Laden the joker.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/09/25/france.us.carddeck.ap/index.html

[Micke]

I usually enjoy Bush and Rumsfeld jokes but this wasnt even funny.

Heh. Maybe someone should make a set of cards with a bunch of fat ass froggies on them too.

[StarvingStudent47]

Here's what they should put on the Joker:

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/todaybaghdad.jpg

[Argyll]

Does everybody seem to forget that the Turks were responsible for the plan of attack having to be changed,by refusing to let troops use the Start Points there..........?
Singling out the French is pointless,as it ain't going to change a single thing,the Germans and Russians too vetoed the US Plans for the invasion too!.
I'm not a great lover of the French either ,but the extreme bitterness shown here in this forum towards them is not healthy!!

[StarvingStudent47]

Does everybody seem to forget that the Turks were responsible for the plan of attack having to be changed,by refusing to let troops use the Start Points there..........?
Singling out the French is pointless,as it ain't going to change a single thing,the Germans and Russians too vetoed the US Plans for the invasion too!.
I'm not a great lover of the French either ,but the extreme bitterness shown here in this forum towards them is not healthy!!

I'm not bitter. I'm ribbing someone who has proven that they're perfectly capable of ribbing back. Frenchpeople have never restrained themselves from making jokes about dumb Americans, so I see no reason why Americans shouldn't be allowed to make jokes about dumb Frenchpeople.

Isn't anyone allowed to have fun anymore?

I mean, I also make fun of Californians, Nebraskans, and people from the pit known as New Jersey. Do I have to quit making those jokes too? They never treated the sensitivities of Oregonians with a butler's care ;)

[Rantanplan]

"Head of a baseball club and director of Salem bin Laden's oil company (brother of Osama). Designated President of the United States by friends of his father at the Supreme Court before the vote count showed that he lost the elections."

But isn't all that True? I think so.

[Fargin]

True or false, I take the french deck of cards as serious as the freedom fries. I'd love to have a deck of the original Iraqi cards though.

[budanski]

Is this a French Tickler?

The Author, Meyssan, is the is the same guy who wrote, "9-11: The Big Lie," claiming that no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, and that the attacks were plotted by a faction within the U.S. military.

French as followers are threatened by leaders.
But they did like this guy:
http://multimedia.carlton.com/images/renard/hitlerparis.jpg

[Seoulstriker]

the French can suck my chode.

[Uncle Sam]

Boy, have the french forgot WWII already...."German" fries, just wouldn't sound right

I have heard that the french people in general are with us. It is the french Government and Policies that are fudging up the system.

[Fargin]

I can hardly believe the french people generaly is with you, at most they're divided.

[spier]

Is this a French Tickler?

The Author, Meyssan, is the is the same guy who wrote, "9-11: The Big Lie," claiming that no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, and that the attacks were plotted by a faction within the U.S. military.

French as followers are threatened by leaders.
But they did like this guy:
http://multimedia.carlton.com/images/renard/hitlerparis.jpgFunny thing is, you can't even prove him wrong. rofl

[Seoulstriker]

Is this a French Tickler?

The Author, Meyssan, is the is the same guy who wrote, "9-11: The Big Lie," claiming that no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, and that the attacks were plotted by a faction within the U.S. military.

French as followers are threatened by leaders.
But they did like this guy:
http://multimedia.carlton.com/images/renard/hitlerparis.jpgFunny thing is, you can't even prove him wrong. rofl


what are you talking about?

[spier]

Is this a French Tickler?

The Author, Meyssan, is the is the same guy who wrote, "9-11: The Big Lie," claiming that no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, and that the attacks were plotted by a faction within the U.S. military.

French as followers are threatened by leaders.
But they did like this guy:
http://multimedia.carlton.com/images/renard/hitlerparis.jpgFunny thing is, you can't even prove him wrong. rofl


what are you talking about?
nobody knows for sure who crashed the planes into the WTC, or at least who funded them. Ok, i don't remember exactly what happend at the Pentagon, but IIRC the proof of what they claim to have happened wasn't entirely convincing.

I am not saying that he is right this Frenchie conspiracist, but I can't say the so called proof brought forward by the US goverment would ever hold up in a courtroom.

[front]

"I have heard that the french people in general are with us. It is the french Government and Policies that are fudging up the system."

I have read quite different. Here is a good starting point:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2748859.stm

I believe that the average French Joe is just as friendly to the average American Joe as always (but take that to mean anything you want). I believe that the French Government under Chirac is extremely suspicious of the motives of the US Government under Bush towards Iraq... and thus Chirac has put the brakes on.

cheers

front

[Deuterium]

Spier you have just jumped on the graves of the victims of 911. You have spat in the face of the hundreds of orphans and widows of 911. You have molested the torn psyches of those who have permanently been wounded on 911. I hope you're proud.

[budanski]

All in a day's work of a troll.

Been submerging yourself in arab media again spier? Have they finally explained how the x-ray sunglasses worn by the marines on how they work yet? :roll:

[spier]

Spier you have just jumped on the graves of the victims of 911. You have spat in the face of the hundreds of orphans and widows of 911. You have molested the torn psyches of those who have permanently been wounded on 911. I hope you're proud.Not as proud you should be for continously raping the third world the last 50 years! woot

edit, since 1904 I meant, making it almost one hundred years!

[budanski]

hey, give us a few more centuries and in no time, we'll catch up with european atrocities.

According to the leftist playbook, you should start harking on the stolen oil, now.....

[cut]

in a few centuries the US will still be younger than many of the european states

[budanski]

According to you and spier, Europe is innocent of all crimes thus should stay stagnant.

[Deuterium]

I have never raped anyone in my life. I have been to the following third world countries and provided medical, de-mining, and humanitarian assistance in my career as a US Army Special Forces soldier; Iraq, Turkey, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Zaire(Congo), Congo, Panama. What have you done? I take great offense at your personal accusations. Please feel free to e-mail me so we can talk about this face to face.

[spier]

hey, give us a few more centuries and in no time, we'll catch up with european atrocities.

According to the leftist playbook, you should start harking on the stolen oil, now.....Ah, good, you admit that what the US is currently doing to the third world can be considered as an atrocity. That saves some time.

And I never said Europe was innocent, please stop pulling arguments out of your ass. It is getting tedious.

[budanski]

Well, while I'm at it. Might as well own to this too...

http://logo.cafepress.com/5/74.32865.gif

In case you havent quite grasp what sarcasm is, i'll give you a hint. A majority of mine are.

[spier]

Oh crap.

So the US isn't carrying out attrocities around teh world? Secondly, I have said that Europe is always innocent?

Good use of sarcasm there! Idiot.

[budanski]

Whos the idiot?

A majority doesnt mean all.

[budanski]

Back to my original post before we were interupted by the troll aka spier...

If you got to the website of this person, Thierry Meyssan, you'll see he supports the Al-Jazzerah 's journalist arrested in Spain for his connections with Al-Qaida. http://www.reseauvoltaire.net

I have to add that this site and its activities are financed by money from the **** industry through a radical leftist called Michel Sitbon...

If you can read French you have all the details here: http://www.geocities.com/catholique_et_royaliste2002/arch2/sitbon.htm

How surprising! <--- (Yes, spier. That was sarcasm)

[Rantanplan]

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_10118966/Pers%d6nlich/__hr_Buddy.jpg?bcdaHd_A_kKrCALu

[budanski]

rofl rofl rofl

comparing that image to my avatar, I'd say I've been losing some weight. whoo hoo :D

[Saranof]

Does everybody seem to forget that the Turks were responsible for the plan of attack having to be changed,by refusing to let troops use the Start Points there..........?
Singling out the French is pointless,as it ain't going to change a single thing,the Germans and Russians too vetoed the US Plans for the invasion too!.
I'm not a great lover of the French either ,but the extreme bitterness shown here in this forum towards them is not healthy!!

I'm not bitter. I'm ribbing someone who has proven that they're perfectly capable of ribbing back. Frenchpeople have never restrained themselves from making jokes about dumb Americans, so I see no reason why Americans shouldn't be allowed to make jokes about dumb Frenchpeople.

Isn't anyone allowed to have fun anymore?

I mean, I also make fun of Californians, Nebraskans, and people from the pit known as New Jersey. Do I have to quit making those jokes too? They never treated the sensitivities of Oregonians with a butler's care ;)


Diffenence is, just cos the french (among others) said they wouldn't support the war, some americans start burning cheese and pouring out wine.
It's like...pathetic. Sure, do some jokes, thats fine. But when it comes to burning the french wherever they go...

[Deuterium]

Oh but throwing bricks through McDonalds windows is acceptable? So when the FRENCH people boycott American products that's okay, but how dare we Americans protest the French???? Bull****, now I don't really think either set of protests will amount to anything but don't criticize Americans for voting with their pocketbooks.

[96B]

I guess this is sort of off topic but, why do they call the French "frogs"?

[ibstolidude]

"Head of a baseball club and director of Salem bin Laden's oil company (brother of Osama). Designated President of the United States by friends of his father at the Supreme Court before the vote count showed that he lost the elections."

But isn't all that True? I think so.

Not entirely accurate:



Designated President of the United States by friends of his father at the Supreme Court before the vote count showed that he lost the elections

although I am no great GWB fan; there is no question he won the election.. period. The United States of America's voting system is not based upon a direct nation wide vote..anyone who feels it is is ignorant of our system.
It is however based upon the Electoral College system ..and in 2000 the count was 271 v/s 266 (1x vote not cast) although the popular vote was in favor of Al Gore.
The founders of the nation devised the Electoral College system as part of their plan to share power between the States and the national government. Under the Federal system adopted in the Constitution, the nation-wide popular vote has no legal significance. As a result, it is possible that the electoral votes awarded on the basis of State elections could produce a different result than the nation-wide popular vote. Nevertheless, the individual citizen's vote is important to the outcome of each State election, as whichever party slate wins the most popular votes in the State becomes that State's Electors-so that, in effect, whichever presidential ticket gets the most popular votes in a State wins all the Electors of that State. [The two exceptions to this are Maine and Nebraska where two Electors are chosen by statewide popular vote and the remainder by the popular vote within each Congressional district]. We are after all
If people are not satisfied by the result; their options are the most common method for amending the Constitution, an amendment must be proposed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress and ratified by three-fourths of the States, or push for the removal of you Electors/Vote.

Cerainly a case can be/has been made against this system, but until it does the black and white is the law and the Supreme Court decision appears to be in strict adherence



director of Salem bin Laden's oil company (brother of Osama) - not quite.
according to public documents - The company you are refering to "Arbusto Energy" (a true Bush-ism - as the word in Spanish is Shrub but used by them as Bush) was not Salem's, although Salem was one of many investors. Salem (the then head of the family construction busines on of the biggest in the world, and a close friend of the king of Saudi) was one of approx 50 investors in the start up company by GWB. The company founded in 1977 was sold/merged in 1984 with Spectrum in order to avoid bankrupcy/failure.


Interesting to note is that Spectrum eventualy became Harkin who one several lucritive deals from Saudi Arabia for their oil research/exploration, regardless of the lack of results...
Incidently both major political parties had their fingers in the Harkin cookie jar - The Bahrain deal was brokered by Arkansas investment banker David Edwards, who happens to be one of Bill Clinton's closest friends.

Certainly many suspect that these deals were/are attempts by the Saudi Royal family/government to place influence on the US foreign policies..anyone who believes their governement has not had such incidents in the recent past is a moron and ignorant fool...such is the way of the modern world - business influences decisions.

[Adri]

do you realy hat the french so much just cause they didn`t want to suport you in this war !?!?!? (they have allready suported you in many wars)

why can the world just kill chirac,bush,that **** in china,that northkorean bitch... why can`t we all just kill all of our leaders AND all media companies/org.

(media casue it is they who delivers the info. and the ones who are responsible for wars....if they had writen/told about the real trouth and not som bitching crap, wich comes from bouth sides, the world would have been a nice place to live...)

bye the way:
if you can read norvegian: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/okonomi/3121897.html

if not:
it looks like someone is going to make a game out of 9/11, you start inside the bilding and must run down to survive I gess...

[Midtown]

we hate them because they are ****s, plain and simple. Thier policy is total bs, I mean look at that "wannabe saving jessica lynch" type crap that they tried to pull of and failed at a little while ago. We should have just left that place in german control.

[Fargin]

We should have just left that place in german control.

It's never too late to invent a timemachine :)

[He219]

I think people forget that Americans were taken aback with the French not for their objections over a war in Iraq, but by the extraordinary efforts made in building (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/21/ip.pol.opinion.france.antiwar/) a coalition to oppose US action.


The French continue to cling to Gaullist delusions of grandeur, acting unilaterally (and destructively) in Africa, while hypocritically claiming to uphold the principle of multilateralism at the UN when it suits their own interests. Paris’s arrogant posturing at the Security Council and its unequivocal condemnation of the US position on Iraq has generated considerable anger in Washington, where many in the administration feel that the Quai d’Orsay is doing its best to keep Saddam in power.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-2-88-936.jsp

Saddam kicked UN Weapons Inspectors out. He made efforts to conceal the disposition of his weapons program. It was only after the US started mobilizing for an assault, 12 years of failed UN wrangling, and with the immediate threat of force that the Weapons Inspectors were even allowed back into Iraq. More time wouldn't have given a credible account to the actual disposition of Saddam's WMD program under his stewardship in Iraq. Saddam had to go, one way or another. Now we see France continue to lead opposition for UN contribution in the rehabilitation of Iraq after Saddam. In my opinion, France's interests are not with the well-being of the Iraqi people, but in it's own egoistic subversion.

http://208.179.237.183/assets/banner_graphic01.gif

[budanski]

And not forget they went out of their way to sabotage US efforts. The main thing they did was state outright that they would veto ANY UNSC resolution, no matter what.

An ally would have abstained.

[Deuterium]

Hrumph, Hrumph.... Man I like this He219 guy... in a platonic sense you understand.

[Trigger]

Governor He219...got a nice ring to it. :D

[spier]

Nobody had clean intentions about Iraq. The French and the Russians desperately wanted Saddam to stay in power, so that their various contracts would remain intact. The US and the 51st state(previously known as the UK) wanted to invade Iraq to replace Saddam with a pro-US goverment that would cancel/"re-evaluate"(i.e. give them to US companies instead) the contracts with the French and the Russians(anyone saw that thing with Bremer on CNN talking about deleting/"negotiate" Iraqi debt? Case in point).

When the French said they would veto anything the US could come up with, then they were merely protecting their own intrests. The US put in a similar situation would have done the same thing. And it shouldn't be hard to find situations where they have.

There is some strangely naive thoughts going around here, for example: "France's interests are not with the well-being of the Iraqi people" No ****? You think the US is down there to promote the interests of the Iraqi people? Or even its own people? The US goverment is down there for one reason: THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

[DE_Six]

I don't hate French people for one, but I do have something against the French government and its policies. Sticking to refusing everything the US suggest for the sake of being perceived as an alternative world leader is lame. Chirac's speech at the UN last week was pathetic. But hey, I'm not the only one, most French people would agree with me (at least, all French foreign students in my college's Pol.Sc. class agree, or almost all). His last election was not exactly glorious. He got there because 15% of the voting population casted for LePen (mostly to protest the lack of valid candidates: commies, fascist, etc what's an honest man to do?) and by coincidence, the participation rate was an all-time low. Result, they got Chirac by default, because the commies and Verts nipped away at Jospin's (Chirac's most serious competitor) votes. Kinda like Nader for the Dems. Chirac... a group of humorist had nicknamed him Super-Menteur, or Super-Liar, if you will. He double-crossed too many people in his career. I don't like this guy...and Thierry Meyssan, what a bitc*. But hey, Spier if you believe him and read french (it hasn't been translated yet), two french journalists wrote La Grande Imposture, or the Great Hoax, to expose this clown. You should read it. He's 100% bullsh**t. But everyone knows that...

But I'm straying here... I don't like Chirac, but the french people more than make it up with cuisine and people like him:

http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/dacha/index.html

I love this guy!

Cheers!

[usa320]

I am not saying that he is right this Frenchie conspiracist, but I can't say the so called proof brought forward by the US goverment would ever hold up in a courtroom.
_________________


Hmmmm...A 757 falls off radar.

half hour later there is a burning AA 757, seats, engines, passengers and wings clearly visible, burning shoved halfway into the pentagon.

There are cell phone calls from people on board.

There is DNA.

What more could possibly be needed?

****, Osama bin bastard admitted it...

Anyone that believes someone other than al queda and its terrorist allies carried out the 9-11 attacks, is either snorting some heavy coke up their nose, or they are just dumbasses.

[[AFSOC]]

Fuk the FRENCH.....

Bunch of ingrates...

[budanski]

The US goverment is down there for one reason: THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

No **** sherlock. The War on Terrorism was primarly for the american audiences in response to 9.11. Just as any country would have done, it just so happens that we CAN wage a response on a global scale.

[cut]

The US goverment is down there for one reason: THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

No **** sherlock. The War on Terrorism was primarly for the american audiences in response to 9.11. Just as any country would have done, it just so happens that we CAN wage a response on a global scale.

absolutely a government would have to be stupid not to act in it's own intrests and in a democratic country that means the countries intrests.

[shorty]

How about we just invade France and kill all those pussy bastards? Should't take more than a day rofl

[Fioraon]

The US goverment is down there for one reason: THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

What the **** do you think a 'government' is for? To serve the interests of who? Maybe you aren't aware of our constitution (wouldn't know why, hell half the world copies it, even North Vietnam) but it clearly dictates that my government serves me, the people, and my interests. So...


Póg mo thóin.

[StarvingStudent47]

Diffenence is, just cos the french (among others) said they wouldn't support the war, some americans start burning cheese and pouring out wine.
It's like...pathetic. Sure, do some jokes, thats fine. But when it comes to burning the french wherever they go...

That's not really accurate. After all, Russia and Germany also opposed the war, and Putin was one of the most vocal opponents--possibly as vocal as Chirac. Yet there is very little dissing of Germany and almost none of Russia. Why? Because those aren't countries we traditionally joke about (we're not traditionally friends with Russia, but I don't know a single Russian joke off the top of my head). Americans and French have been ripping on each other since 1946. The Iraq War is just the latest excuse.

[spier]

The US goverment is down there for one reason: THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

What the f*** do you think a 'government' is for? To serve the interests of who? Maybe you aren't aware of our constitution (wouldn't know why, hell half the world copies it, even North Vietnam) but it clearly dictates that my government serves me, the people, and my interests. So...

Thought it would be harder than this to convince you all..

The French government did their job. Nothing more, nothing less. Same thing with the US. Just don't try to make it look like the US did something "good" when they invaded Iraq, not to mention that the French aren't any better themselves.

Also, the government is supposed to serve the people, but in reality they mostly serve the upper class segment of the population.

[StarvingStudent47]

nobody knows for sure who crashed the planes into the WTC, or at least who funded them. Ok, i don't remember exactly what happend at the Pentagon, but IIRC the proof of what they claim to have happened wasn't entirely convincing.

I am not saying that he is right this Frenchie conspiracist, but I can't say the so called proof brought forward by the US goverment would ever hold up in a courtroom.

Well, I suppose it could have been Tibetan Buddhist fundamentalist terrorists, though they must have had nice disguises because all the last-minute cell phone calls from the doomed planes described Middle Eastern hijackers--and we were able to identify precisely who because major airlines keep records of who is on each plane. Not to mention Bin Laden claimed responsibility for it.

If you don't remember what happened at the Pentagon, I do. Here's a quick sum-up. American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into it, killing roughly 800 people. The thousands of eye-witnesses (this was in the middle of Washington DC, at the start of a business day) would make a cover-up pretty hard to pull off.

[Adri]

How about we just invade France and kill all those pussy bastards? Should't take more than a day rofl

and get the hole EU and the rest of the world on you ?
that would be smart !

[spier]

Well, I suppose it could have been Tibetan Buddhist fundamentalist terrorists, though they must have had nice disguises because all the last-minute cell phone calls from the doomed planes described Middle Eastern hijackers--and we were able to identify precisely who because major airlines keep records of who is on each plane. Not to mention Bin Laden claimed responsibility for it.

If you don't remember what happened at the Pentagon, I do. Here's a quick sum-up. American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into it, killing roughly 800 people. The thousands of eye-witnesses (this was in the middle of Washington DC, at the start of a business day) would make a cover-up pretty hard to pull off.bin laden claimed responsibility? That's like..wow. I thought that it would be easy to find that kind of statement from news.google.com. Strangely, I didn't find anything that hadn't been retracted, however, I found this:


Sep 27, 2003
Two years after the 11 September attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, we cannot help thinking back to the events of a day that changed the world. Yet even now, the story of what happened on that day is far from clear, and clouded by competing versions. Questions still abound over such important matters as the identity and motives of the perpetrators. In this article, I hope to shed some light on these issues, using the information that has been disclosed to date.

The most widely accepted version of the events is that which was disseminated by US officials to the world's media only hours after the attacks. According to this version, the attacks were the work of Bin Laden's Al-Qa'eda. Though widely accepted, this claim is not above question. In particular, the US administration has yet to file a bill of indictment. We still do not know what legal evidence they have accumulated against the alleged perpetrators, and no arguments have been produced for the courts to challenge. So far, only one person has been put on trial: Zakaria Moussaoui, a Frenchman of Algerian origins. The absence of any more inclusive indictment casts serious doubts on the reliability of the official US version of events.

This stands in sharp contrast to the case of the twin bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on 7 August 1998. In the latter case, Washington -- quite rightly -- accused Al-Qa'eda of mounting the attacks. After only a few months of investigations, US prosecutors issued a bill of indictment against a number of defendants. The accused were put on trial, and the final guilty verdicts were handed down in summer 2001. The lack of any similar bill of indictment in the case of the September attacks is thus quite bizarre, considering that over the past two years US investigators have collected enormous quantities of evidence and detained hundreds of people on suspicion of working for Al-Qa'eda.

Following the occupation of Afghanistan, Al-Qa'eda's alleged base, US officials claimed to have seized large quantities of data. Further information was obtained through the unprecedented cooperation of intelligence and security services worldwide. One would imagine that the detention of some 600 suspects in Guantanamo Bay, all of whom are said to be members of either Al-Qa'eda or the Taliban, along with more than 3000 further suspects worldwide, should have helped clarify the case. More to the point, the Americans have also arrested several people who are allegedly key officials in Al-Qa'eda, including Khaled Sheikh Mohamed, Ramzi Ben Al-Shaiba, Abu Zubeida, Abdel-Rahim Al-Nesheiri, Tawfiq Ben Attash, the Indonesian Radwan Isam Al-Din (aka Al- Hanbali), Mounir Al-Motassadeq, and Zakaria Moussaoui. All have presumably provided valuable evidence relating to the case.

Without a bill of indictment, the official US version of events should be regarded as mere "assumptions" that can and should be challenged by individuals who are seeking the truth. My intention here is to answer a specific question: Is there any conclusive evidence that Al-Qa'eda was indeed behind the criminal attacks of September 2001? Unfortunately, I will not have space to address the wider question of who were in fact the true authors of 9/11.

The American "assumptions" have been laid out in some detail, so I have decided to focus on a few specific points which bear in crucial ways on the official version of events. The first point to be made is that, to date, the so-called Al-Qa'eda group (or Qa'edat Al-Jihad) has failed to admit responsibility for the attacks. None of the leaders of the group, including Bin Laden and Ayman El-Zawahri, has issued a statement of any kind claiming responsibility. On the contrary: in many of the statements, press conferences and television announcements which he made prior to early November 2001, Bin Laden explicitly denied that his group was responsible for the attacks.

Since then, officials from the group have begun to praise the attacks, but have still not admitted responsibility. They refer to the 19 men Washington accuses of being behind them as "a squadron of martyrs who gave their lives in the fight against the Great Satan". Surely it is strange that Al-Qa'eda and its leaders have consistently refrained from any clear admission of responsibility for 9/11, even though Washington has launched a relentless war against them, and they have nothing left to lose? When weighing this evidence, we should also bear in mind that Al-Qa'eda has since claimed responsibility for a number of attacks, in Yemen, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and elsewhere.

Even the televised tapes made by some of the alleged perpetrators of the September attacks, including commentaries attributed to Bin Laden, have failed to dissipate the dense fog which still surrounds the case. I provided a critical appraisal of these tapes in an earlier edition of Al-Ahram Weekly (see 25 April, "Footage after the fact"), in which I cast doubt on their authenticity. Among the main points I raised in relation to Ahmed Al-Ghamedi's tape that was released in April 2002, was the fact that the tape's "producers" included footage purporting to show Bin Laden and a number of his senior aides, yet none of these figures made any credible reference to the "perpetrators" or in any way claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Nor did Al-Ghamedi provide any confirmation of his affiliation with Al-Qa'eda. Indeed, it remains a mystery why any one should go to all the trouble of producing such a tape without naming the group that mounted the attack. The "perpetrator" does mention Bin Laden twice, in passing. First, he describes him as a leading Muslim scholar who authorises Jihad against America (mentioning seven scholars, among whom he places Bin Laden sixth). Then he mentions Bin Laden as one of five figures who have defended Muslims against aggression, this time placing him last in the list. In the course of this second reference to Bin Laden, the "perpetrator" interestingly adds the caveat: "if he is still alive, may God save him; if he has been killed, the nation can produce a thousand more Bin Ladens." Yet, at the alleged time of the recording in March 2001, there was no doubt whatsoever that Bin Laden was alive. His photograph was all over the media, and his remarks were widely reported. It was only later that his fate and whereabouts would become a mystery.

Despite Bin Laden's repeated references to the 19 men who allegedly carried out the September attacks, he has conspicuously failed to add any new information about them to what had already been published in the media. One obvious explanation for this would be that Bin Laden himself had obtained his information about the men exclusively from published reports. And indeed, though he does not seem to mind giving the impression that they were acting on his orders, he has always been careful to avoid making such a claim outright. With his media savvy, Bin Laden seems to have realised that allowing the US version of events linking him with the September attacks to predominate could help him in his war against the American enemy. Yet he has still refrained from making any explicit claim of responsibility for himself.

The televised tapes of Bin Laden also contain a number of contradictions which undermine their credibility. For example, the US security services have released a tape showing Bin Laden making fun of some of "his men" who carried out the September attacks, in which he says they did not know that the planes were destined to crash into their target -- this information was available only to the leaders of the four groups, who piloted the planes in person. Another tape, however, shows some of those men, who were said to know so little of the detailed plans in which they played a part, holding English-language maps on which the planes' final targets were clearly marked. On this second tape, the images were accompanied by a commentary in Bin Laden's voice which described them as preparing for the attacks.

Another point which is central to the official US version of these events concerns the identity of the 19 men and their leaders. The same US security and investigation services which failed to predict the attacks and claimed to have received no specific information about them in advance, only took a few days to present the world with a list of the 19 men involved. They have stuck with this list ever since, neither adding nor removing any names, and without altering the charges against the men in any manner -- despite all the additional information they have collected in the two years since the attacks.

I have already commented on this matter of the identity of the attackers (see Al-Ahram Weekly, 20 September 2001, "A war over resources"). In particular, we should bear in mind the age and experience of those accused by the US. These 19 men range in age between 20 and 33; the majority of them had no extremist Islamist background, whether in their countries of origin or in the Western countries where they lived immediately prior to the attacks. None of them had previously been subject to arrest or detention. Almost all of them come from well-to-do families, who had enabled them to go to Europe and the United States to study science and technology at considerable cost. All these factors together would seem to undermine the case that Bin Laden might have recruited them, particularly at a time when his group was under intense external pressure. As we have seen in Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, and Afghanistan, Islamist suicide cadres usually emerge from a totally different set of conditions. The journey from ordinary citizen to potential martyr is not normally the result of intellectual conviction or religious zeal, but is driven by frustration and harsh experience. It is the result either of total despair (as in most of the cases associated with Israeli occupation) or of personal experience of the rigours of jail and torture.

When selecting potential martyrs or suicide bombers, leaders of Islamist groups tend to follow exacting procedures of intellectual, religious, and practical screening and preparation. Bin Laden and his lieutenants could not conceivably have gone through anything like this process with the alleged attackers, most of whom had lived for years in the West, were religiously uncommitted, and had no apparent sympathy with hard-line Islam.

The only Egyptian implicated by the US security services in the attacks was Mohamed Atta. The former architecture student from Hamburg, Germany, has been presented as the leader of the September attacks. Atta's background, however, raises as many questions as it answers. The first of these concerns the timing and method of his alleged recruitment by Al-Qa'eda. The American authorities have proposed two different stories in this regard, both of them far-fetched. The first is that Atta was recruited in Egypt by Al-Jihad before leaving for Germany in 1992, and that he stayed in touch with this group until moving on to join Al-Qa'eda. This story conflicts with the known fact that until 1998, Al-Jihad focussed its violence exclusively on the "enemy at hand", namely, the Egyptian government. In 1992, Al-Jihad and Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiya had just launched an intensive campaign of action in Egypt. It is therefore unlikely that Al-Jihad would have let a promising member such as Atta travel abroad in anticipation of action on a front which had not yet been sanctioned by the group. In fact, we know that at that time Al-Jihad was doing just the opposite, and bringing members back from abroad in order to carry out attacks in Egypt.

The second story is that Atta was recruited to Al-Qa'eda after he arrived in Germany by a Syrian. Again, this rings false. Being an Egyptian, Atta should by rights have been recruited, or at least approved, by Egyptians close to Bin Laden, such as Ayman El-Zawahri, Abu Hafs or Seif El-Adl. Yet the Americans do not cite any of these men as being involved in identifying him, approving his recruitment, or testing his loyalty to Al-Qa'eda. In addition, Atta had never previously been a member of a violent Islamist organisation. He had never served time in prison. This makes it unusual, to say the least, for him to be commissioned by Bin Laden to lead such a gigantic operation.

So we are faced with a picture which makes no sense at all. Atta suddenly erupts on the scene as head of a terrorist unit, and yet we have no clue as to how exactly he was recruited. This vagueness is more reminiscent of secret service operations than of Islamist groups. The Islamist pattern of recruitment is fairly well-established. Islamist groups, whether violent or not, tend to begin by urging their prospective members to learn the tenets of Islam and practice them. The initial phase of recruitment involves turning the prospective member into what is called a "committed brother". This process takes place in a collective rather than an individual framework. Studying the Qur'an and practicing the main forms of worship requires a small group into which the prospective member can be integrated, with all the members of the group generally frequenting the same mosque.

In Atta's case, there is no evidence for such a preliminary phase of recruitment during the last two years of his stay in Hamburg, let alone before. Yet no Islamist group, violent or not, would ever allow a prospective member to take part in an organised action until this person had been through such an initial period of coopting. Such a phase would normally last for close to a year. In the case of violent groups, members who graduate from the "commitment" phase to clandestine action undergo a further process of mental, religious and physical training, which on average lasts for another year. After that, there is a long period during which the new member is "tested". This rule holds true even for groups which are not as large and sophisticated as Al-Qa'eda. Besides, new members are not allowed to apply to take part in large-scale operations. The process is a gradual one, with phased testing and graded selection. The progress of each member depends on how well he performs at each stage. There is nothing in the available information about Mohamed Atta indicating that he went through any such training process. Instead, he springs onto the stage before us fully-fledged, the master of 19 men, and leader of the most formidable terror attack in history. This pattern might make sense in terms of secret service recruitment procedures, but it does not follow the standard practice of known Islamist groups, including Al-Qa'eda.

To compensate for this flaw in the American version, the security and media services have spread the concept of "sleeper cells". Unfortunately, this concept too has been borrowed from the world of secret service and intelligence operations, and has little to do with the real-life practice of known Islamist groups. The Soviets, for example, were famous for using "sleeper cells" in the West to carry out operations there. Islamist groups, however, whether militant or not, have never operated through anything resembling such "sleeper cells". Rather, these groups place an absolute priority on the conduct of their members, and are very strict on such matters as religious doctrine and practice. The scant details that we have about the conduct of the 19 alleged attackers show that some of them committed what such groups deem grave sins, such as the drinking of alcohol on the night preceding their act of "martyrdom". Some would argue that a major Islamist terrorist group such as Al-Qa'eda might well have been an innovator in this matter. Yet even if this was true, the new approach would certainly have been restricted to seasoned members of the group who had passed through all the early stages of recruitment, and would still have been conditional on their not engaging in any major sins, such as the drinking of alcohol. In this respect, then, the case of the 19 men would still constitute an inexplicable anomaly.

The US version, then, turns Al-Qa'eda into a clone of a Cold War secret service, recruiting without moral vetting and acting without claiming its deeds, even when it mounts its biggest ever operation. This account contrasts sharply with all we know about the nature of Bin Laden and those close to him, and about the group they lead. In the normal course of events, Bin Laden would have claimed responsibility for the attacks that would have been the crowning work of his life, the deadliest blow ever dealt to those whom he sees as the enemies of Islam. The idea that Bin Laden is not claiming the attacks for fear of US retaliation is ridiculous, since he doubtless foresaw the terrible reprisal which has since unfolded. Why should he have risked such vengeance, without the satisfaction of telling the world of his deeds? That he has made no attempt to claim the glory which they would confer should give us food for thought.

The US version is anomalous in another way, for the 19 men allegedly involved in the attack left no trace of their involvement behind them. As US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has admitted, no clues have been found -- thus once more, the facts of the case fit the pattern of a secret service operation, rather than that of an Islamist commando. Islamists working for terrorist organisations generally leave behind them as many traces as they wish, for their aim is to declare their responsibility to the Muslims of the world, and to boast of their religious sacrifice.

There are just a few of the details about the September attacks which throw serious doubt on the official American "assumptions" as to how they were carried out. In assessing them, we should remember, too, that the US security services have been severely criticised both at home and throughout the West over their handling of the attack. The former UK Minister Michael Meacher, writing in the Guardian last Saturday, even went so far as to question the slow reactions of the US air defence to the 11 September hijackings, and to ask whether this was due to negligence, ignorance -- or a deliberate decision.

Byt the way, at the Pentagon only 184 people died( rofl ). Quite a bit less than "roughly 800"... rofl

edit, added another rofl

[Deuterium]

Spier, I like the way you put a smiley face on the comment that only 184 people were murdered. Oh yeah that's FUNNY!!!! Why don't you go to the widows and inforns of those dead people and tell them that.

[spier]

Although it is obvious that I was laughing at SS47's 'expert opinion' on how many people that died at the Pentagon, I have now added another smiley to the comment on the 184 people that died. Satisfactory?

[ibstolidude]

Fiction can be fun; there are glaring facts missing from the above text you quoted; but WHY include them? that would NOT support the agenda.
You are as bad as those you preach against....anything to make your point. The fact remains, both sides lie and twist facts to meet their goals..you are no different.. Fortunately for me, my only goal is to show parts of the "otherside" when people post such oneside half cocked dribble.

1) Bin Laden videos have been shown both in the West and East that reflect his prior knowledge of the events...even during which UBL i= identifies Mohamed Atta as the group's leader
UBL quotes as taken from the BBC translation of the tape:
"I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for"

""The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America, but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter,"

"We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors," he said, gesturing with his hands to show a building and a plane flying into it.
"I was the most optimistic of them all," he said.
He also claimed to have known the attackers were ready.
"We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day,"
"They were overjoyed when the first plane hit the building, so I said to them: be patient,"

2) Passengers names are recorded on the Flight Manifest that is checked at the time of departure...valid Passport and a US Governement (Federal or State) Issued ID required...Not all the men traveled under aliases and false documents. Those that did, the true owners of those identities have stepped forward. That makes it pretty easy to list out the names of all on board. Witht the exception of 3.

3) Mohammad Atta: Often confused with Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta (held in Isreal for an 86 attack - released) by the too quick media.. In July 2000, Atta enrolled at Huffman Aviation International in Venice, Florida. He was always accompanied by Marwan Alshehhi, a hijacker of United Airlines flight 175; Atta claimed to be of royal Saudi descent and presented Alshehhi as his bodyguard. In December, he went to the Miami area to practice on a Boeing 727 simulator. He was a known associate of Mustafa Ahmed and postal records showed him mailing a package on 4Sept..as bright as you are I'm sure you are aware that Ahmed is a major money player in the Al Qaeda. In the morning of September 11, they drove to the Portland International Jetport (PWM), flew to Logan International Airport in Boston and boarded American Airlines flight 11.
Video, eyewitness and passener manifests (He used his real name) place him there. One of his bags did not make it onto Flight 11; it was later found to contain airline uniforms, flight manuals and a four page document in Arabic, copies of which were also found with the terrorists of the other three planes. It contains a list of instructions, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions", "you should feel complete tranquillity, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short", "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter". His former roomate: Ramzi bin al-Shibh was arrested in Pakistan last year...you know in the raid with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Where oh where could the connection be? Oh oh where could it be? - certainly there are unanswered questions but to report no connection between the 2 is ignorant.

4: Saeed Alghamdi (flight 93) - 12 Sept video was shown in which he gives his last will in a video speech including the phrases:
"America is the enemy that every Muslim should fight. There is no way the Arab nation can be saved except through jihad (holy war)," said the speaker, identified as Saeed Alghamdi, wearing military fatigues and an Arab headscarf.
& "I tell you our battle with you will continue. ... We will erase the shame (inflicted on Arabs) with our hands and all our force."
He is seen during military exercises in a remote area which Al Jazeera said was in Afghanistan.
About him, Ahmed Alnami and the Al-Alshehri brothers: Sometime in the late spring of 2000, they disappeared and their family did not know where they went, Abdel Rahman said. Friends said they believed the two went to Pakistan and then on to Afghanistan where they were given hand-to-hand combat and light weapons instruction at the Al Farouk training camp. They returned to Saudi Arabia in December 2000 and boasted to friends about their experience. - ... to claim no AlQaeda connection is a joke.

There are definite questions that are unanswered about the support they recieved; the complexity reported in the backgrounds of some of these individuals is amazing..but that does not prohibit an Al Qaeda connection.

5. We can continue with the majority of the highjackers and show/reflect their lack of connection...but hey what do facts matter?

6.
The former UK Minister Michael Meacher, writing in the Guardian last Saturday, even went so far as to question the slow reactions of the US air defence to the 11 September hijackings, and to ask whether this was due to negligence, ignorance -- or a deliberate decision.
So George DuhhhhW Bush and the rest of our un-intelligent goverment was able to mastermind this conspiracy, and keep it from public eye...they enlisted the help of 1,000s and they have been able to keep it a secret, ofcourse history has shown the LACK of ability of the US to keep anything from being bivulged/leaked...but ofcourse the historic model argument only can apply to your arguement. That's right.

[Co17]

Deuterium when were you in sf and what group were you in, not to many details, or terrorist looking on a military photos site for prime targets and couldn't keep his mouth shut, thanks.

[spier]

1) Bin Laden videos have been shown both in the West and East that reflect his prior knowledge of the events...even during which UBL i= identifies Mohamed Atta as the group's leader
UBL quotes as taken from the BBC translation of the tape:
"I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for"

""The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America, but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter,"

"We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors," he said, gesturing with his hands to show a building and a plane flying into it.
"I was the most optimistic of them all," he said.
He also claimed to have known the attackers were ready.
"We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day,"
"They were overjoyed when the first plane hit the building, so I said to them: be patient,"Strange, I haven't found any translations that says this, so you will have to hand over some sources. Although I did notice that the BBC only calls bin Laden a "suspect", which might imply that there isn't much conclusive evidence out there..

2, 3 and 4 proves nothing. Al Qaeda aren't the only ones providing training in Afghanistan. Anyway, all of this does not prohibit an al Qaeda connection, but it doesn't prove anything either.

6. You are implying that Americans are incapable of learning from their past mistakes? Not that it matters. I am not trying to say that it was "teh CAI!!1" that was behind the attacks, but rather that it could be anyone since there haven't been presented any conclusive proof. "Innocent until proven guilty.."

[NcDeuce]

Ay, silly French.

[ibstolidude]

You are implying that Americans are incapable of learning from their past mistakes? I implied nothing ....that may be what you inferred... there is a difference..And if you are implying that I believe the US is incapable of keeping secrets, you are correct...that is something we fail at constantly..

Here yet another incident of your posts showing not a reflection on facts but any rhetoric that may support your agenda...

I am not trying to say that it was "teh CAI!!1" nice fake quote when did I mention either the CAI or the CIA? I didn't but that doesn't stop you from using it.

and as far as the BBC translations -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1708091.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1709425.stm

- Bin Laden: "We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. "

Us DOD translation: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf

must be another "teh CAI!!1" conspiracy.

Ohhh wait a minute the BBC is not reliable unless they contradict a US media...then they are reliable..



2, 3 and 4 proves nothing. Al Qaeda aren't the only ones providing training in Afghanistan. Anyway, all of this does not prohibit an al Qaeda connection, but it doesn't prove anything either. Really? Earlier you posted
the majority of them had no extremist Islamist background, whether in their countries of origin or in the Western countries where they lived immediately prior to the attacks. None of them had previously been subject to arrest or detention.
Background - A person's experience, training, and education - I guess Atta's former roomate being arrested with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and the evidence of his ties to Mustafa Ahmed show no "experience, training or education" w/ Islamic extremists?

I guess Saeed Alghamdi pilgrammages to Afghanistan and to the Al Farouk training camp of Al Qaeda show no "experience, training or education" w/ Islamic extremists? His VIDEO TAPED statements prior to his death that have been aired all over the world, in which he proclaims American as the enemy of islam shows no "experience, training or education" w/ Islamic extremists??

Hey guess what Jeffery Dahmer showed no history of eating and raping people and ****ing their skulls until he was caught..hell he'd never done it before therefore he must have been innocent. What the hell kind of logic is that?

-
The real question about the filing of Indictments is not about Proof....it is about the desire for the Bush administration to ensure that the Terrorists can be treated as "EPW" versus the rights allowed them as criminal suspects...they wish to use the auspice of a "war of terrorism" to ensure they have the ability to act in ways that would be counter to the rights of criminal detainee (as treating them as EPWs)...but that thought never crossed your warped mind cause you are too busy screaming - conspiracy & "not true" about anything that could be counter to your claims regardless of the facts...

[JiJoMacLE45]

Spier, it's hard to believe that there were slower swimmers in the gene pool than you. Your level of ignorance is unfounded. Hopefully you'll realize the terrible mistake your parents made that fateful night, after one too many screwdrivers, and remove yourself from this terrible place the rest of us heathens are trying to make it in.

[usa320]

Add some chlorine to the gene pool no?

rofl

Spier is utterly and completely a total ass.

[spier]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1708091.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1709425.stm
me: bin laden claimed responsibility? That's like..wow. I thought that it would be easy to find that kind of statement from news.google.com. Strangely, I didn't find anything that hadn't been retracted, however, I found this:
http://www.netzeitung.de/servlets/page?section=1109&item=172422
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,174025,00.html

Heh, the independent translations didn't make much of an impact in the US mainstream media. Isn't that...strange?(and yes, I noted that the US Defence departments transcript was done by independent translators, in the US..for the defence department.)

nice fake quote when did I mention either the CAI or the CIA? I didn't but that doesn't stop you from using it. It was a sarcastic remark, I tried to underline the fact that I am not a conspiracist. Only a child would take that seriously, geez, I even added some "'s and a few 11's. :roll:

usa320 and JiJoMacLE45: Grow the **** up.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Son, I was grown before your skull hardened and your mandibles gained dexterity! Respect your betters.

[spier]

Son, I was grown before your skull hardened and your mandibles gained dexterity! Respect your betters.Then act like it.

[Trigger]

It's too bad this is only the internet...I'd love to see JiJo go all 'Rodney King' on you. rofl

[ibstolidude]

since when is BBC "mainstream US media"?


Both of the sources you posted stem from an article in the German political science magazine the "monitor" - Really independent - that's like saying Foxnews does a great job of covering the 'Left" :roll: - really nice independent source...
The arabist, as he refers to himself named Abdul Husseini, a lebanese born man, was hired by a reporter not the government - there couldn't be an agenda there - and his associates provided the translations...

other "independent works" by Mr Husseini:
http://home.t-online.de/home/kl.heller/husseini-1.7.3.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/kl.heller/husseini_11.6.2.htm


Now you talk about weak evidence all the time....just goes to show what is good for the goose really is good for the gander.


and yes, I noted that the US Defence departments transcript was done by independent translators, in the US..for the defence department. really this is a DOD employee? - Arabic language program coordinator, School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University; are you some kind of moron?

And what do they dispute?
- quoted as saying that "we calculated in advance the number of casualties …" Husseini disputes the presence of the term "in advance -

- "We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event [the Sept. 11 attack] would take place …" Husseini denies the validity of the word “previous."

- we asked each of them to go to America …" Instead of the ****oun "we," Husseini states that an impersonal form "it is asked" is the actual translation.

Where were they when it was time to dispute:

Text of World Islamic Front's Statement Urging Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders" -- Al-Quds al-'Arabi headline; in a front-page report, Al- Quds al-'Arabi says that the statement was "faxed to Al- Quds al-'Arabi and signed by Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin (the prominent Saudi oppositionist); Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt; Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the [Egyptian] Islamic Group; Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan; and Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh"

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it.

The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam [not further identified] in his books, where he said "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty God "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill- treated (and oppressed) -- women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

Almighty God also says "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

[Mortimer]

hey, give us a few more centuries and in no time, we'll catch up with european atrocities.

According to the leftist playbook, you should start harking on the stolen oil, now.....

no thats my job....

THE OIL THE OIL!!!

rofl

[JiJoMacLE45]

Good to see we can all keep our sense of humor and not flame away for once.