View Full Version : If not the SA80, then what...
wulfstan
09-26-2003, 08:40 AM
Having heard a lot about how bad the SA80 is, i would like to hear opinions about what it should be replaced with and why...
Replies would be better judged if they come from those who have actually used one (btw i have not fired/used one, i'm just interested)
Gringo
09-26-2003, 09:08 AM
Never used the fired an SA80 (except that on the SAT range) but I have handle that, the LSW, and the L98. And I tell you now, it's bloody uncomfortable to hold. The mag can fall out the weapon, sometimes the mag won't bloody go in.
If it does get replaced I'd like them to adopt the G36.
MolliG
09-26-2003, 11:02 AM
G36, as they are all ready making their way into armouries, or the C7/8 as they are all ready used in service. :)
Saranof
09-26-2003, 01:20 PM
Group pressure, g36 :)
Kitsune
09-26-2003, 02:11 PM
The Brit armed forces using a G E R M A N rifle?????!!
Don't think they would ever do that. And don't let Ms Thatcher hear that you even contemplated this !!!
p-)
M-4 or one of its variants. British SF already use American made rifles, why not outfit the rest with them?
Otherwise I'd say G36
Chet Mystery
09-26-2003, 02:34 PM
M-4 or one of its variants. British SF already use American made rifles, why not outfit the rest with them?
Actually, they are Canadian made rifles...
USMarine3521
09-26-2003, 03:53 PM
then an m16a4 or g36
Eviscerator
09-26-2003, 04:06 PM
Has anyone actually seen a bad report about the L85A2 from someone that has fired it? From all reports coming out of Iraq and testing its much more reliable than the M16A2, and a lot more accurate (as it's always been). Retrograding down to the M16A4 seems like a silly idea, i vote for sticking with the L85A2 and giving it a chance to perform, i cant see British tax payers wanting to shell out more money on rifles after a large and expensive upgrade program has just been completed on the current rifles.
An interesting site to read, with some very good links too, including one to an interview of sorts with one of the marines that placed those famous complaints about the jamming of the L85A2 in Afghanistan:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm
Gringo
09-26-2003, 06:30 PM
I don't like bullpups fullstop!
Ratamacue
09-26-2003, 06:35 PM
Retrograding down to the M16A4 seems like a silly idea
I don't really consider the M16A4 to be a "retro" design. Just because the original AR15 is some 40 years old doesn't mean that a) the A4 is a bad weapon or b) that the A4 is old.
aeternum
09-26-2003, 06:47 PM
The Brit armed forces using a G E R M A N rifle?????!!
Don't think they would ever do that. And don't let Ms Thatcher hear that you even contemplated this !!!
p-)
Well the SA80 got totally reworked in 2000 by Heckler & Koch anyway, and is now named SA80A2 ... so its part german already ;)
Source:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sa80.pdf
marktigger
09-28-2003, 01:16 PM
well according to all i've heard SA80a2 preformed well in the desert unlike the m16. Much as i don't like the bloody thing i think we'll be stuck with it for the next 10-15 years. Personally i'd like the G36 or the sig 551.
He219
09-28-2003, 02:07 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030928/capt.lon80309280705.iraq_britain_lon803.jpg
What about the Austrian Steyr AUG?
An Iraqi child plays in a water pipeline overflow as British soldiers take time out from a foot patrol to cool off in Basra, Iraq (news - web sites) Sunday Sept. 28, 2003. ( AP Photo/PA, David Cheskin )
USMarine3521
09-28-2003, 02:13 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030928/capt.lon80309280705.iraq_britain_lon803.jpg
What about the Austrian Steyr AUG?
An Iraqi child plays in a water pipeline overflow as British soldiers take time out from a foot patrol to cool off in Basra, Iraq (news - web sites) Sunday Sept. 28, 2003. ( AP Photo/PA, David Cheskin )
1) he traded his SA80a2 with an austrailian
2) maybe an austrailian died and he decided to loot his AUG...
possible..
Kampfhamster
09-28-2003, 03:08 PM
Erm, which Australian guy would trade his Steyr for a SA80? :roll:
G36? better you would buy the SIG 550-family ;)
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/sig550-01.jpg
Gringo
09-28-2003, 03:26 PM
SIGS aren't cheap.
USMarine3521
09-28-2003, 03:30 PM
so g36's are cheaper? if so then g36 all the way
marktigger
09-28-2003, 03:32 PM
have heard alot of problems with steyr from Australians in Iraq and Irish army.
like
1. it rusting really badly
2.cocking levers having to be substituted by biro pens when the break of
3. the timoor incident where a made safe(mag on chamber empty) weapon went of in the back of an APC being driven along a road.
4. It going full auto because there isn't a proper fire selector
5.sights fogging
6bits dropping of
Kampfhamster
09-28-2003, 03:45 PM
SIGS aren't cheap.
quality costs.
;)
Seraphim
09-28-2003, 05:45 PM
Theres also a problem with NG's with the steyr because theres no tigger guard.
seventy6er
09-28-2003, 06:27 PM
have heard alot of problems with steyr from Australians in Iraq and Irish army.
Irish Army???
Chris1
09-28-2003, 06:47 PM
Irish Defence Force technically :)
they could go with the 20 000 dollar club....
(OICW that is) ;)
Gringo
09-29-2003, 04:39 AM
SIGS aren't cheap.
quality costs.
;)
"Sorry lads not enough rifles to go around, you'd have to use sticks to whack them with and stones to throw at them."
It seems that either the equipment isn't good enough or there's not enough to go around in the British Army.
martinexsquaddie
09-29-2003, 04:55 AM
My brothers off on an enforced holiday to the sand shortly and there getting A2 to take with them and minmi so there happy with them, The LSw is no longer being used as a Machine Gun as in that role it was pants but as a marksmans rifle. With its longer Barrel it can hit out to 1000metres nothing like having your mate get a hole in the head to act as suppresive fire. with the minmi to give suppresive fire and a grenade laucher the section hasmore firepower than ever before
Royal
09-29-2003, 09:34 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - with the money spent on the A2 upgrade, we're stuck with it for another 10 years at least.
Particularly with the positive AAR's on it's use on Op Telic I.
Commando69
10-20-2003, 11:21 AM
I dont know where you heard that about the Steyr but i have been using it regularly for the last 15 months and i can tell that it is highly reliable and i know from several more experienced soldiers that it served well in East Timor and the Leb for years.
Sabre
10-20-2003, 01:38 PM
Go Canadian with the C7/C8.
The SAS use them, but more importantly I've had a play with them and they're damn cool.
Apparently, if the £90 million that was spent revamping the SA80 was spent on them, we would have two C7/C8 for every SA80.
non-zero possibility
10-20-2003, 02:05 PM
G36 all a way
Gringo
10-20-2003, 03:10 PM
G36 all a way
F***ing A!
ChuckThunder
10-20-2003, 03:16 PM
Having heard a lot about how bad the SA80 is, i would like to hear opinions about what it should be replaced with and why...
Replies would be better judged if they come from those who have actually used one (btw i have not fired/used one, i'm just interested)
Kind of off subject; but does anyone have pics of an IW-80 A2?
ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
10-20-2003, 04:55 PM
unfortuneatly it comes down to the politicians making the choice not the soldiers (i admitt sas probably has lee-way on what they use). Heckler and Koch did improve some of the major faults in the old sa80, so it does look like british forces are stuck using it for at least 10 years like royal said. True it probably would have been cheaper to get some g36's or some c7's/c8's but like i said before...politicians arnt soldiers so they dont know there ass from a hole in the ground p-)
You must remeber way back in vietnam first introducing the m16 series it had its faults, alot of jamming, rust, and your gun would jam half way threw the clip. I bet if the sa80 was refined and totally re-built from the ground up by H&K it would be more widely accepted.
USMarine3521
10-20-2003, 05:07 PM
i thought the reason the m16 jammed so much is because it was rushed to vietnam and they didn't have much time to train them how to clean it. Then when they finally trained them how to clean it worked fine.
Seoulstriker
10-20-2003, 05:15 PM
I love the M-16 family... all that bull-pup crap just doesn't settle with me.
the G36 is nice, but it just doesn't feel right.
ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
10-20-2003, 06:36 PM
"i thought the reason the m16 jammed so much is because it was rushed to vietnam and they didn't have much time to train them how to clean it. Then when they finally trained them how to clean it worked fine."
Exactly when the m16 series first appeared in nam it had a few qwerks to work out. No doubt it immediately earned a bad repuatation with the soldiers but once everyone properly new how to use and its do's and don'ts everything worked fine. The same is with the sa80. It shouldnt be counted out just yet.
Gordon
10-20-2003, 07:34 PM
Having heard a lot about how bad the SA80 is, i would like to hear opinions about what it should be replaced with and why...
Replies would be better judged if they come from those who have actually used one (btw i have not fired/used one, i'm just interested)
Kind of off subject; but does anyone have pics of an IW-80 A2?
As far as I know the IW is simply a variant of the SA80, the L85 variant I think, and the A2 stands for the latest upgraded version of the SA80. The IW stands for Individual Weapon ... for pictures of it just check out all the pictures of Brits in Iraq, the soldiers carrying the SA80 are carrying the IW variant, there are some pics of soldiers carrying the LSW variant (Light Support Weapon) which is another variant of the SA80, designated L86.
1. it rusting really badly
2.cocking levers having to be substituted by biro pens when the break of
3. the timoor incident where a made safe(mag on chamber empty) weapon went of in the back of an APC being driven along a road.
4. It going full auto because there isn't a proper fire selector
5.sights fogging
6bits dropping of
1. AUG's from Austrian Production aren't rusting. And if ever, just because of miss-treatment
2. breaking cocking levers are replaced within less than 5 minutes (with spare lever and leatherman).
3. a "made-safe" weapon going of indicates a complete idiot handling the weapon. even if the weapon got accindently cocked (indicates rocking the weapon with at least 20 g!!!), safety wasnt applied and fingers weren't off the trigger :fork:
4. there is a proper fire-selector (selectice trigger !!!!). every recruit after doing the first 3 shots in his life, is fully aware of the mechanism !!! :cantbeli: - in fact the mechanism is very good, reliable and no extra switch is needed
5. fogging sights possible- mistreatment or production error (australian versions seem of poorer quality)
6. ???? - please explain
bullpup or not- personal choice. I don't like the long guns.
Used AUG's for a long time now, including KFOR. I won't trade for another gun - and I know a lot fo the common models.
Assaults: M4, M16, AK (& derivates), SIG, G3, G36, FAL, Famas
Can't comment on the A2 variant as that came in after I left. Home Office police services are moving away from the MP5SF variants and heading down the road of .223 longs for AFOs. The approved .223 list so far includes the HK53, G36 and AUG. My force has never been a fan of the MP5SF and has always gone for the HK53. The choice for UK police services was always between the AUG, HK53, MP5SFA2 and MP5SFA3, but with the advent of the G36 a lot of forces are making the switch to that weapon.
The HK33 in .223 has been around in police use for donkey's years, but was (and still is) an observer/rifleman ("sniper") weapon strictly for SFO blue shirts only.
GearGod
10-21-2003, 02:19 AM
Then what? M4A1 SOPMOD or M16A4 SOPMOD; Or the future XM8!
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