Warrior IFV in Iraq

[Argyll]

Having read several times this week about the IED's that are hitting the 1st Battalion Black Watch,and the fatalities,I'm at a loss as to why these vehicles are not providing more protection to our Troops on the ground!

What's the ex Brits and serving Brits opinions on this?

To me it sounds like it's lacking armour in vulnerable places?

[lancejack]

Its my understanding that the first SVBIED was detonated as the Black Watch went to do a snap VCP - they opened the hatch and dismounted and the car crawled alongside them and went off. The one that injured the 2 EOD guys was also through an open door I think.
I'm guessing about todays but it sounds as if the IED may have turned the vehicle off the road - so maybe it was a rollover injury or the top cover guy got it.
Not sure what armour you could put in place to stop any of these.

[oldsoak]

Its not the Warrior - troops are safe enough inside it ( unless they run into a MBT ) - its when they dismount they are vulnerable. Unfortunately one cannot avoid dismounting. Suicide bombers are something only the Israelis have much experience with - not even at the height of the troubles did we ever face suicide bombers. Some of the UK's considerable experience is very applicable but a nutter with his eyes fixed on the afterlife is pretty hard to deal with.

[NicNZ]

To me it sounds like it's lacking armour in vulnerable places?

So am I :lol:

[ShadowNeo]

Apparently the fourth fatality was caused when the Warrior IFV violently veered off the road.

[Argyll]

some good points here I never considered,especially the warrior being thrown,these VBIED's are increasing in size and complexity,I don't think the Black Watch were prepared for this,which is shamefull to say the least,but the thing that still gets me after all these years is that Command detonated IED's still need a line of site to the target and device,looks like some of the lads are not thinking along the NI lines......sad really :(

[Javehn]

Israelies had the same hard experience during Lebanon times and later . Most of the vehicles used were pretty easily penetrated by even light IED's , or suicide cars , and that what happened several times .
Instead of searching endless ways to more protect the armor to surealistic weight , IDF developed a method to control the roadson which the vehicles are driving . Using heavy vehicles that could take hard IED hits at the begining of the convoy (some even specialy designed for this target , and some like D-9 where discovered as a naturals for this mission ) , swipping with fire areas that could be possible places for IED placement or combined ambush (IED and direct attack after it ) , setting red zones around vehicles which no one should approach (remember us arguing about this Argyll ? I have a strong suspision you never understood what i ment there) . The vehicle movement should be with a maximum cover , while there are always overwatching vehicles on battle positions while other vehicle is moving , and so on .

As a more dinamic approach is to set intellegence and overview around the road , and to act according intellegence reports . If the report indicated low possibility for IED placement , perhaps more free movement of vehicles allowed .. If there is possible air support , it is excellent to use it . Not to use routine driving over obvious roads of advance , but if possible , to drive off road and to change roat routine every time .

And , there is no vehicle that can stand every IED . RIP to black watch soldiers .

[Sayeret]

When are some instances that the crews of these IFVs would have to dismount, besides at their base?

[moughoun]

When are some instances that the crews of these IFVs would have to dismount, besides at their base?
setting up a VCP, foot patrol, heart's and mind's mission's ect

[Sayeret]

What's VCP? Why would a crew of a IFV carry out a foot patrol?

[Hoplite_V]

It;s hard to see whats going on around you inside an IFV. Hard to make friends witht he population too and get contacts with the locals.

[Avary]

What's VCP? Why would a crew of a IFV carry out a foot patrol?
VCP : Vehicule Check Point.

[martinexsquaddie]

my brother saw a warrior take two rpgs hits in basra result pissed off warrior crew and rpg gunner turned into a red mist.
I think a warrior is as armoured as possible but you can't make the thing inviciable

[h_rnzir]

Why would a crew of a IFV carry out a foot patrol?

the vehicle crew isn't doing the VCP but the dismounted infantry in the back are

[Michael RVR]

Think about it, what can you do behind armour thats going to hurt the enemy, and what are they trying to achieve ?

They're trying to catch / kill terrorists, and to do that part of it is to undermine the enemy presence, but another part is making sure the civilians in the area feel safe to support you - theres no way you're going to accomplish that behind armour.

Still, i cant help but comment that the two EOD guys i read the story of, it sounded to me that they were just used to being in relaxed sunny basra...

rip

[Argyll]

After listening to some of the Black Watch soldiers today on SKY news I'm gobsmacked they had no clue as to what they were getting into,sorry blokes but this is total naevity,or else they have not been tuned in to what has been going on in Iraq and I find that amazing!! and disturbing.

Did these lads not get a brief as to the TAO and the Ground?
Did they not recieve battle orders to include "situation Enemy Forces"?
They were moving up into this "Triangle of Death" the media has named the former "Sunni Triangle"....surely they didn't expect it to be "tea an biscuits"?

Because if this is the case then there is something seriously seriously wrong with the leadership elements of todays modern British Army,I know the CO of 1 BW had his reservations about this deployment,but something stinks to the high heavens here.

I mean,I as a lowly PSD operator I get daily Int briefs and if the VBIED threat is raised,it's passed right down to us,also the BOLO lists etc.......if we in a private sector can get this Int,then why can't the lads on the ground right in the thick of it?

[Hoplite_V]

This isn't directed to the guys who died in any way BUT troops do get lazy and stupid. Probably among the stupidest thing i've seen/heard is troops removing their magazine or firing pin on their rifles when they drive somewhere just as a further precaution against accidentally firing off a round.
Given this isn't in a combat zone like iraq but it's still a stupid stupid thing to do if your on an operational tour.

As bad as iraq is im sure theres still dumb troops out there who do the same thing. Again thats just in general, i havn't read mentioned story above.

[W(M)D]

It sounds like the vehicles are sitting targets due to their (SOP) placement.

In open ground they can afford to be in a support position utilising more effectively the range of their mounted (integral) weapons/optics systems.

Other kit should be used for setting up blocks on the VCPs.

Arriving at location should use varied routes, not the usual obvious/main routes/roads (the vehicles are capable of going wherever they want due to their tracks and also the expanse of ground). This will reduce opportunity IED threat.
It keeps the bad boys guessing on routes and obvious VCP points.
Troop dispersal on the ground, I saw a clip on TV of a dismounted crew in all round with only several metres between blokes just around the warrior - what is the point against car bombs?
Get the juicy targets right off the road in good overwatch & spread the guys out is the answer.

[h_rnzir]

Get the juicy targets right off the road in good overwatch & spread the guys out is the answer.

exactly!!



Probably among the stupidest thing i've seen/heard is troops removing their magazine or firing pin on their rifles when they drive somewhere just as a further precaution against accidentally firing off a round.

wtf!!..that just boils to poorly trained soldiers who lack confidence in themselves and their weapon-handling skills,also to their commanders not fault checking and inspecting the troops before you go out on task.