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Dennis G
09-27-2003, 01:48 PM
I was just wandering if anyone would like to see the M14 battle rifle reappear as america's main combat rifle?

http://www.fulton-armory.com/FA00101-RightSide-600_50.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/assault/m14.jpg


M14, basically a product improved M1 Garand, performed well as a infantry rifle. The M14 had an effective range of 500 yards (460m). The M14 used a standard NATO 7.62mm cartridge in a 20-round magazine. The M14 was the standard Army infantry rifle, until replaced by the mass fielding of the M16 5.56mm rifle in 1966-1967. Some M14s were equipped with a bipod for use as a squad automatic weapons. However, the M14 displayed an erratic dispersion pattern, excessive recoil, and muzzle climb when fired as an automatic rifle.


The M14 rifle design is one of the finest and most durable of this century. While John C. Garand had little to do with the evolution of the M14 from his M1 Rifle, the M14 remains the culmination of the life's work of that immortal firearms designer. Along with the FN-FAL and the AK-47, the M14 is considered to be one of the finest military rifles ever issued. It certainly represents the end of an era, where "lock, stock and barrel" had literal meaning and the Rifleman prized accuracy over "firepower." The M14 is truly a "rifle for life," an heirloom to be passed down the generations.

The M14 rifle is unique among US military rifles in that it has never officially been made available to the public by either the US Government or a Government contractor. Originally, the balance of the components of the M14 rifle, save its heart, the receiver, have been available for purchase. In recent years this supply has been supplemented by commercial reproductions of many components. The receivers in particular have been made available from a variety of commercial sources, with varying degrees of dimensional accuracy and production quality.

So the civilian desiring an M14-type rifle has had to buy or build a rifle that is, to a greater or lesser extent, a replica or reconstruction of the original, beginning with a semiautomatic-only (since 1986) receiver and finishing with some combination of GI and reproduction components. It should be no surprise that a great deal of confusion, misinformation and just plain ignorance exists among those with the desire for an M14. We can help you cut through the fog, to give you, the buyers of M14 components and rifles the knowledge they need to make informed decisions about the significant investment required to own an M14-type rifle.

We want to help you understand what an M14 is and how you can evaluate the alternatives you will find when considering receivers, components, and even rifles for purchase. We feel that the more you know, the better prepared you will be to plunk down your hard-earned money and get what you pay for. If we succeed in this, we will have been successful.



http://world.guns.ru/assault/m14a1.jpghttp://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1gar_4.jpg

1,000 Rounds Through the Fulton Armory M-14
By Joe Gorman


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I make no apologies for my love of the M-14 (or Springfield Inc.'s version, the M-lA). It is as near perfection in a military rifle as I've encountered. Once, I got to play with an honest-to-goodness M-14. As it happened, one of my friends shot competitively for the Army and they gave him a NM M-14 to take home and practice with, along with several thousand rounds of ammunition and the promise that there was always more where they came from.

That rifle was a thing of beauty, like nothing else I've ever played with. Unfortunately, us mild-mannered citizens are not allowed to own such rifles without an obnoxious amount of money and paperwork. Sigh. M-lAs or rifles built on Springfield receivers, are fine for me.

I've owned (or tested) some big-dollar military pattern rifles: FN F.A.L, HK91, Beretta AR-70, AR-15, Galil etc, and yet, if the Commies (read Clintonites) came over the hill tomorrow, an M-14 would be the rifle you'd see in my hands. I can shoot it the best of the above mentioned rifles, it will not malfunction and it is chambered in a hard-hitting caliber. >

Using a Springfield Inc. receiver, Clint McKee of Fulton Armory (F.A.) built me up an M-14 with U.S.G.I. Springfield Armory and TRW parts, added a competition package and installed the awesome Brookfield Precision gas piston and recoil spring guide. Due to careful smithing, there simply is no play in the gas system of this rifle: not at the barrel band, not at the gas cylinder, not at the op rod guide, nowhere. The bolt comes home nearly as perfectly as in my DCM M1 Garand due to Clint McKee's hand-lap fitting of the bolt to the barrel.(To my knowledge F.A. is the only M-l4 builder that takes the time to do this) F.A. bedded the rifle to a new walnut stock, used National Match iron sights and stoned the trigger to break like the proverbial glass rod at 4.5 lbs.

My F.A.-built a rifle, with a chrome lined G.I. barrel, that will shoot under 1.2 M.O.A. and through 1,000 rounds has not failed to feed, extract or fire a single round: even when covered in hay and dust on a recent South Dakota prairie dog hunt.

In F.A.-speak, my rifle is a rack grade with new, bedded, walnut stock and competition package. The only equipment I added was a heavy-duty Brownell's competition sling. A match barrel would squeeze more accuracy from my rifle but it would not be as durable or as authentic to the real M-14. Besides, any semi-automatic, military-pattern rifle than can shoot as well as most bolt guns is not something I care to tinker with.

As a testimonial to the potential of this rifle, on a recent trip to South Dakota, I had confirmed prairie dog hits out to and beyond 300 yards using the iron sights. Impossible you say? The sights would obscure a house-cat-sized prairie dog at that distance you say? I spotted them with a pair of Bushnell focus-free binoculars, oriented myself to their position and had a friend call the shots using the binoculars. True, I missed more dogs at 300 yards than I hit, but using this variation on the scout-sniper concept I made some spectacular hits.

By the end of the second day of shooting, any dog out of his hole at 200 yards or less, was a guaranteed goner. At less than 200 yards, under the bright, prairie sunshine, I could acquire the dog through the smallish-aperture NM sights.

When I first took the M-l4 out of the box, I fired 80 rounds informally to set the action in the bedding. (I used U.S.A. Magazine's M-l4 20 round magazine for this and the subsequent bench-rest shooting.) Then I cleaned the bore and chamber carefully and stowed the rifle muzzle-down in the closet. The next day I went to the range. Over the next two months I had fired over 1,000 rounds at targets and rodents, bored my wife to tears with enthusiastic and unsolicited range reports and realized, even over her protests, that I needed to own this rifle. (I got it originally on a T&E basis)

Bench-rested on a Hoppes' adjustable rest and using .308 Winchester PMC, U.S.A. (Winchester) and American Eagle (Federal) ammunition, I fired ten, five-shot groups with each ammo type, at 100 yards. American Eagle turned in the best five-shot group and proved to be the most consistent of the mil-style ammo (from 21 feet, as measured with a Chrony F2, high velocity was 2885 f.p.s., low was 2812 f.p.s. after 50 rounds)

With American Eagle, the best five shot group went 1.7" center-to center. PMC turned in both the second best five-shot group and the worst. Five shot groups of PMC ammo went 1.9" center-to center all the way out to 3.5" c-t-c. The PMC functioned flawlessly however and turned in otherwise respectable shot groups. U.S.A. was just a hair off the PMC's mark, sending five shots into 1.97" c-t-c. It proved very consistent, never varying more than 85 f.p.s. from high to low.

At a mere 100-yards, match ammunition does not reveal its true potential. The extra care and time spent in assembly of match ammo is plainly visible when target shooters go out to the 600 yard mark. At 100-yards however, it makes a noticeable, but less significant difference.

I used Federal, Winchester and Remington match ammunition for my 100-yard tests. The most incredible group I turned in was with the WW 168 gr. BTHP match ammo. Three shots of said ammo went into .72" c-t-c at 100 yards. Holy Cow! Take your stock, .308, bolt gun to the range and try that. Maybe it can do it, maybe it can't but I did it with a M- l4!

Moving to the five shot groupings, Federal again won the day. Its 168 gr. BTHP match ammo went 1.19" c-t-c. at 100 yards. Five rounds of WW 168 grain BTHP match went 1.5" c-t-c. And five rounds of Remington went 1.65" c-t-c.

If I had to define a typical grouping, using the appropriate match ammo, I'd say, this rifle can direct five rounds into less than l.7" c-t-c any day of the year, assuming the man behind the trigger does his part. This exceptional accuracy is due in no small part to the excellent Brookfield components in my rifle. You may or may not know Brookfield supplies M-14, sniper-variant rifles to several U.S. military organizations. They make the scope mounts (unavailable at press time due to incredible demand), recoil spring guides, gas pistons and Kevlar, steel-bedded stocks. Brookfield precision supplied the rifles that helped to protect President Bush off the coast of Maine.

Interesting to note, the owner of Brookfield was a tool and die maker at the original Springfield Armory, who worked on the M-14. He used this experience to craft the creme-de-la-creme of above-stated M-14 components and has made a good thing, the best in the world. I will report at 2,000 rounds and every 1,000 rounds thereafter to document the longevity of this rifle. At this point, I'd say Clint McKee built me a rifle just a micron away from a real M-14. I could not pay him a higher compliment.

Update: the Brookfield Precision scope mount arrived along with MWG tactical rings and the Tasco Super Sniper 10-power mil-spec scope. This is the set-up that currently sits on my F.A. M-14. This rifle keeps turning better and better groups. The last, best five-shot group fired at 100 yards measured .90 inches measured center to center. That was with the Brookfield Precision scope mount. MWG rings, Tasco Super Sniper and Federal 168 gr. Match ammunition. I can highly recommend the Brookfield Precision mount, MWG rings and Tasco Super Sniper scope. J.G.)

Deuterium
09-27-2003, 01:50 PM
I'd like to see the round come back in an updated assault rifle but not the M-14. Stop wasting money on grunt guns that can shoot 1 MOA and put that money into smaller lighter weapons of the same caliber. Mobility and functionality is the key. Sure accuracy is important. We need to be able to hit targets out to 500 meters but if the gun doesn't allow for manuverability, like the M-14 as compared to the M-4, then you loose something in the transition.

Ratamacue
09-27-2003, 02:44 PM
7.62mm is too powerful for a rifle round nowadays. I'm seriously hoping the military starts outfitting M16's/M4's with the new 6.8x43mm ammo, and hopefully the XM8/XM29 in the future.

Jooglae
09-27-2003, 03:25 PM
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1gar_4.jpg
This is an M1 rifle clip. 8 rounds of Springfield .30 Cal. Nothing to do with the M14.

And why would anyone want to replace M16 rifles with M14s? M16 has an automatic fire capabiliity, much more shorter and lighter than M14, and the SS109 ammunition's penetration is formidable. Why would you carry a clumsy long rifle with much more recoil than its predecessor, the M1?

USMarine3521
09-27-2003, 03:27 PM
hey rat you got a link about that new round, sounds interesting.

Ratamacue
09-27-2003, 03:41 PM
I haven't seen a whole lot of info on it, just scattered things here and there. A quick google search came up with the following:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/bullet.html#68

It gives some interesting info on the ballistics. It seems that 6.8x43mm has almost twice the energy at the muzzle and the energy difference only increases beyond that point, plus it seems to have a longer effective range.

Dennis G
09-27-2003, 07:30 PM
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1gar_4.jpg

yeah I know they have nothing to do with the m14. I know they are 30-06 rounds I just wanted to post them.

And why would anyone want to replace M16 rifles with M14s? M16 has an automatic fire capabiliity, much more shorter and lighter than M14, and the SS109 ammunition's penetration is formidable. Why would you carry a clumsy long rifle with much more recoil than its predecessor, the M1?

why would anyone well I would becouse I would like my unit to be a better shot drop a man at 500 yrds then just spary bullets down range and pray. Shorter is better but lighter and with more recoil I never had a problem .308, 30-06, 400 H&H magnum (now that kicks like a horse)
I dont think the soldiers would have that much problem with the .308(7,62) I think that m16 should be chambered in the 22-250 or the .243 (a bit more power then the .223)

Crazy big game cartridges Once again just tought I would post it.
http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/classcart/images/458wattslott_p1p6v6no4.jpg

The standard big game cartridges L - R .500 Nitro Express, .470 Nitro Express, .458 Lott, .458 Winchester.

Chris196
09-27-2003, 10:53 PM
M14s and their civilian M1A copies are fine rifles.

But in answer to your question, No.

StarvingStudent47
09-28-2003, 02:09 AM
I can't imagine we'd go back to the M-14, though I've been hearing a lot of rumbling about higher-powered assault rifles since the war in Afghanistan.

This conversation does remind me of something I stumbled on a while ago...a conversion for the M-14:

http://www.troyind.com/images/M14%20and%20SOPMOD.jpg
(the "M-14 SOPMOD" with an M-14)

http://www.troyind.com/images/SOPMOD%20and%20m203%20.jpg
(the "M-14 SOPMOD" compared to M-4/M203)

More info on the Troy M-14 Sopmod is available here (http://www.troyind.com/SOPMOD%20M-14.htm).

Ratamacue
09-28-2003, 03:10 AM
Looks pretty sweet, but could you imagine the recoil and muzzle blast on something like that?

Micke
09-28-2003, 10:55 AM
I dont think replacing the 16/4's with a rifle thats almost 50 years old would be a good idea. It has a higher caliber and longer range, but what other advantages does it have over the 16/4s?
Keep the 16/4s and use the M14/M1A as a DMR, as the USMC (and others) I reckon. And that is allready done.

I think Swedish army is doing something similiar, bringing back the old AK4 (HK G3) for designated marksmen. AK4B I think its called, AK4 with M1913 Picatinny rail and Aimpoint optic.

Micke
09-28-2003, 10:56 AM
By the way, does anyone know if USMC ever used the HK MSG90 DMR?

ArmoredDov_D9
09-28-2003, 01:23 PM
The M14 seems to heavy for being AR but it can serve very good as a Desginated Marksman weapon or even for close range sniping (1 MOA is pretty good, although M24 is capable for 0.5 MOA).

In Israel, police forces still uses the M14 as sniper rifle (exept SF units and CG units).


SF = Special Forces (YAMAM, YASAM).
CG = Civilian Guard (citizens who volunteer to aid police work).

seventy6er
09-28-2003, 02:06 PM
The Chinese have an assault-rifle chambered in 5.8 X 42 mm.

Click HERE (http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=282) to read more about it.

Chris1
09-28-2003, 08:03 PM
So... a competition shooter (if that) who has owned a lot of perfectly clean rifles and shot them under perfect conditions (with no-one shooting back) and spends a lot of money on custom modifications has come to the conclusion that the M14 was the perfect service rifle.
Greeeat.

SOG
09-28-2003, 08:37 PM
yes id use the m14 "style" of rifle in a minute under the guise of the m21a which is the much LIGHTER updated version and smokes the m16 for reliability. now if they chambered it for that new russian round :)

ogukuo72
09-28-2003, 09:50 PM
Even if you want a 7.62mm rifle, why choose the M14? The SR-25 is a lighter, easier to shoot alternative.

Anyway, did anyone asked the infantryman struggling through mud in the jungle if he would want to carry a heavier / longer rifle with heavier cartridges in larger magazines that cannot be fired at full auto to give covering fire in the event of an ambush and which would be awkward to use in a MOUT situation?

Bing
09-29-2003, 01:28 AM
i think this topic has been beaten to death...

BMF
09-29-2003, 02:31 AM
to whoever asked, no the marines never adopted the MSG90 as a DMR. instead they re-built some M14's as you can see in certain photos on this site

D.E. Watters
09-29-2003, 07:03 AM
By the way, does anyone know if USMC ever used the HK MSG90 DMR?

The HK MSG90A1 was submitted for the USMC DMR "competition". Once it became clear that they could handpick surplus M14 rifles for a buck ($1) apiece, the HK didn't have much of a chance. However, the final DMR represented a lot of new aftermarket parts and fitting by USMC armorers. While it could be said that these armorers are going to get paid either way, the cost of the aftermarket parts cannot be written off so easily.

Most of the legend of the M14 seems to be based on National Match, M21, and other custom-tuned examples. Ironically, during its brief production run, the rack-grade M14 was considered to be inferior to the earlier M1 Garand in both design and workmanship. In March of 1962, Aberdeen's Development and Proof Services released "Report on Tests for Ad Hoc Committee on Accuracy and Testing of 7.62mm Ammunition and M14 Rifles". For the testing, twenty-one M14 rifles had been chosen at random from rifles already accepted for military issue. Three manufacturers (Springfield, Winchester, and H&R) were represented by seven new rifles apiece.

All of the rifles from Winchester and H&R exhibited excessive headspace.
All of the rifles had loose handguards.
95% of the rifles had loose stock bands.
90% of the rifles had loose gas cylinders.
75% of the rifles had misaligned op rods and gas pistons.
50% of the rifles had loose op rod guides.
50% of the rifles had op rods which rubbed the stock.
Three rifles had barrels which exceeded the maximum bore dimensions.
Only three rifles had an average bore diameter which fell below the accepted mean diameter.
One rifle was found to have a broken safety while another had a misassembled safety spring.
One rifle had a misassembled flash suppressor which was actually contacting bullets during live fire tests.

A barrel from each manufacturer was sectioned for examination of the bore and chrome lining. The chrome lining was out of tolerance (uneven and on average too thin) in all three barrels. The H&R barrel also failed the surface-finish requirements.

During accuracy testing, the M14 rifles produced greater group dispersion and variation in the center of impact than the control rifles (two M1 Garands rechambered for 7.62x51mm along with two AR10). NATO testing was quoted indicating that the Canadian C1 (FN FAL) and German G3 were also less sensitive to variations within and among ammo lots.

Shutting off the gas port in the M14 rifles resulted in an average 20% reduction in extreme spread compared to those groups fired with the gas port open. This also reduced the variation in the center of impact.