PDA

View Full Version : Carbine SA80A2 to equip tank crews



Fee Fi Fo Fum
11-10-2004, 04:42 PM
British Army tank crews are to have their personal fire-power boosted with the introduction of of a brand new model of the SA80A2 assault rifle.
The MoD has placed a Ģ1 million contract with Heckler and Koch to convert 1400 standard weapons into a new, shorter, "carbine" design.
Currently the four-man crew of a Challenger2 tank is equipped with a combination of SA80 rifles and Browning 9mm pistols.

http://www.army.mod.uk/img/news/SA80A2.jpg

The new SA80A2 carbine will replace both weapons when it enters service in 2005. Colonel Simon Deakin said:

"This new rifle is a radical re-design of the SA80A2. The barrel has been shortened by almost a foot - to half its original length - a new 20-round magazine has been developed and a forward hand grip replaces the hand guard, making it lighter and easier to store and manoeuvre from inside the tight confines of a tank.
"It has an additional rail fitted to the forward body that can be used to mount lights, lasers or other future enhancements.
"This new model builds on the improvements we have made to the SA80 since it was first developed. The carbine offers the power and reliability of the Battle proven SA80A2 in a design that is much smaller, lighter and easier to handle. The combination of the new design and the SUSAT (Sight Unit Small Arms Trilux) sight make for a weapon that is extremely manoeuverable and very accurate.
"Work to convert 1400 rifles into the carbine model has already begun, and thanks to our good working relationship with Heckler and Koch we have been able to link this contract into the current upgrade programme, combining various processes, including transport, inspection, *****ping, assembly and testing the weapon, reducing the overall cost."

To ensure the weapon met the stringent standards demanded of it, the team put the carbine through its paces in the Arizona dessert, the Quebec tundra and the humid jungles of Brunei.
Colonel Deakin also commented that: " We have subjected the carbine to a series of demanding tests in a variety of extreme environments and it performed beyond our expectations. This new model has proven its reliability, accuracy and will be easy to use in a variety of situations, particularly crews who need to operate form the tight confines of a tank.
"This is an extremely flexible weapon and while the current requirement is for it to equip tank crews I am sure there will be a lot of interest from other users who see their role benefiting from a personal defence weapon."

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/equipment_latest/sa80a2_carbine.htm

oldsoak
11-10-2004, 05:46 PM
Crikey - must have shortened the gas system etc. Wonder if they ever thought of getting p90 instead ?

ShadowNeo
11-10-2004, 06:19 PM
I remember seeing an article about that in Combat and Survival magazine last November/December.

MEGR
11-10-2004, 06:24 PM
I love the SA80... They need to make civilian versions.

REMOV
11-10-2004, 06:37 PM
The MoD has placed a Ģ1 million contract with Heckler and Koch to convert 1400 standard weapons1412, to be exact.
The barrel has been shortened by almost a foot - to half its original lengthThe barrel has 365 mm.

http://bluey.gemnetworks.com/pictures/sa80carbine.jpg

And this is AFAIR third approach to the SA80 Carbine ;)

Kekkonen
11-10-2004, 06:39 PM
Keeping the SUSAT seems to be slightly overkill, if itīs just intended to be a tankers
personal defence firearm. And how hm, long range can it have with a 365 mm barrel?

REMOV
11-10-2004, 06:43 PM
And how hm, long range can it have with a 365 mm barrel?Ca. 200 m. You know, the M4Ax barrel length is 370 mm, but the new Carbine SA80A2 is shorter, that is the advantage of the bullpup design ;)

oldsoak
11-10-2004, 06:57 PM
Keeping the SUSAT seems to be slightly overkill, if itīs just intended to be a tankers
personal defence firearm. And how hm, long range can it have with a 365 mm barrel?

I agree - surely a sight light a red dot or equivalent would be better or even a plain old iron sight ? - it's going to be used close up and personal.

DeltaWhisky58
11-11-2004, 04:43 AM
Keeping the SUSAT seems to be slightly overkill, if itīs just intended to be a tankers
personal defence firearm. And how hm, long range can it have with a 365 mm barrel?

I originally posted on this site over a year ago with pictures and data on the adoption of this weapon.

There is no option but have the SUSAT sight or similar on the SA80A2k owing to the extreme short length of the weapon. The sight radius is so short that iron sights if fitted would not be up to the range to which this weapon is capable. The weapon has ben proven to be effective out to 200m and beyond.

marktigger
11-11-2004, 05:31 AM
I love the SA80... They need to make civilian versions.

They did Guns and Ammo did a report on them about 1985 there were very few made cause it didn't sell.
Obviously Devgru77 you've never handeled a real one they are absoutly apalling. We're stuck with them till the army gets its act together and orders us a new rifle hopefully something by HK and made by HK not licenced to ROF.

marktigger
11-11-2004, 05:33 AM
Keeping the SUSAT seems to be slightly overkill, if itīs just intended to be a tankers
personal defence firearm. And how hm, long range can it have with a 365 mm barrel?

yep but SUSAT is less bulky than the Iron sight therefore more useful in a confined space. Anyway Susat and the sling are the only good bits on the SA80.

Mark Sman
11-11-2004, 06:32 AM
Even if you can't hit it, optics can be useful for the whatinthehellwasthat function.

-Archon-
11-11-2004, 10:08 AM
whatinthehellwasthat function

which can be quite important....

RFSU
11-11-2004, 10:38 AM
MARK.TIGGER


: I have never used one but some mates over the pond said the new HK upgrades are fantastic. "Take a humming birds **** off at 200" was the exact quote I belive.

Are they still un-reliable?

HoboWithAK
11-11-2004, 10:54 AM
The reason they aren't putting a CCO on it? It would cost more to replace the SUSAT.

-Max2-
11-11-2004, 11:01 AM
IMHO, the P90 or MP7 would be a better PDW for tank crews. But more expensive too... :|

MEGR
11-11-2004, 12:50 PM
I love the SA80... They need to make civilian versions.

They did Guns and Ammo did a report on them about 1985 there were very few made cause it didn't sell.
Obviously Devgru77 you've never handeled a real one they are absoutly apalling. We're stuck with them till the army gets its act together and orders us a new rifle hopefully something by HK and made by HK not licenced to ROF.

You're right. Frankly, I just like it's design and wouldn't mind getting my hands on one for plinking.

Sabre
11-11-2004, 01:35 PM
^
That would be fine, it's great for on the range as it is quite accurate. I don't think it's really up to the job in the field though.

Lets get some C7s for the army.

DeltaWhisky58
11-11-2004, 01:58 PM
IMHO, the P90 or MP7 would be a better PDW for tanks crew. But more expensive too... :|

That's an interesting point - Radway Green Ordnance Factory (BAE Systems) claims to be prodicing 4.6mm ammo for the H&K MP7 - OK, BAe used to own H&K so there is an obvious link-up - but who is buying this ammo unless it is for the German forces - who else is using it?

The MP7 would be an obviouc choice for AFV Crews/Aircrews/MPs etc.

Little J
11-11-2004, 04:17 PM
IMHO, the P90 or MP7 would be a better PDW for tanks crew. But more expensive too... :|

That's an interesting point - Radway Green Ordnance Factory (BAE Systems) claims to be prodicing 4.6mm ammo for the H&K MP7 - OK, BAe used to own H&K so there is an obvious link-up - but who is buying this ammo unless it is for the German forces - who else is using it?

The MP7 would be an obviouc choice for AFV Crews/Aircrews/MPs etc.

Didn't NATO just announce that the p-90 / 5.7 was preferred PDW? If so what does that mean for the HK offering (and those that have already received them)?


Lets get some C7s for the army.

My guess would be the XM8, given Blairs "picking up soap" position with Bush :hug: p-)

stupify
11-11-2004, 07:48 PM
Crikey - must have shortened the gas system etc. Wonder if they ever thought of getting p90 instead ?

Because then you have another caliber of ammo to supply your troops with. Keep it simple. If this works well for them then you don't have to worry about the logistics problems that could come about.

REMOV
11-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Because then you have another caliber of ammo to supply your troops with. Keep it simple.So, if you swich from 9 mm pistol ammunition to the 5,7 mm (or 4,6 mm) it will be also stick to the rule KISS, am I right? ;)

stupify
11-11-2004, 09:14 PM
Because then you have another caliber of ammo to supply your troops with. Keep it simple.So, if you swich from 9 mm pistol ammunition to the 5,7 mm (or 4,6 mm) it will be also stick to the rule KISS, am I right? ;)

Yeah if you're talking about pistols. In this case, we're talking about rifles. I agree that something like the P90 or some other sub gun would be a great choice for tankers. But it seems to me that they looked at it from a logistics stand point...uniformity. If your tankers use weapons that fire the same ammo as your infantry, you don't have to work into the budget this new ammo. And you don't have to worry so much about the wrong ammo going to the wrong unit. American Army tankers still had those .45 cal grease guns up to the first Gulf War. They don't have them now, because the US military was begining to get rid of .45 cal weapons. The U.S. phased out the 1911's for the M9, in part due to uniformity. Uniformity with NATO. And it's cheaper than .45 ammo.

I'm not saying that anyone is right or anyone is wrong. I'm just pointing out one possible reason why they decided to make the choice they made.

Michael RVR
11-11-2004, 10:17 PM
Lets get some C7s for the army.

My guess would be the XM8, given Blairs "picking up soap" position with Bush :hug: p-)

Nah its been mentioned several times that they're planning on bringing in the G36 in around 2007 i believe.

MEGR
11-12-2004, 01:28 AM
I see some British soldiers already using C7s.. There are some pics in the Afghanistan photo section.. It appears that only Brit SOF are using it rather than ordinary infantry...

dacanadianbomb
11-12-2004, 05:09 AM
Also wouldnt you have to get the armourer all up to date, and stock up on extra parts if you were using a different weapon system?.
The shorter SA80 carbine prolly has a fair amount of interchangable parts with its bigger brother.


just some thoughts.

marktigger
11-12-2004, 05:58 AM
I love the SA80... They need to make civilian versions.

They did Guns and Ammo did a report on them about 1985 there were very few made cause it didn't sell.
Obviously Devgru77 you've never handeled a real one they are absoutly apalling. We're stuck with them till the army gets its act together and orders us a new rifle hopefully something by HK and made by HK not licenced to ROF.

You're right. Frankly, I just like it's design and wouldn't mind getting my hands on one for plinking.

As far as i remember thats all G&A said they were good for and boy were they right. Its a great Range rifle but as a service rifle its dangerous. And according to the investigations carried out after stoppages now everything is 'operator error' the powers that be say there is nothing wrong with the rifle which is absolute bollocks.
SA80 has always been accurate (except with Iron sights in transit) but its never been reliable. some of the Gas faults are sorted but the inital poor design and manufacture of the weapon will never be resolved until its scrapped.

marktigger
11-12-2004, 06:00 AM
I see some British soldiers already using C7s.. There are some pics in the Afghanistan photo section.. It appears that only Brit SOF are using it rather than ordinary infantry...

Yep SF are using the C7 and C8 and last time i heard from an armourer in that community the M16/Car15 had been withdrawn in favour of the Canadian version.

It would be an excellent replacement for the SA80 but having played with a G36 thats what I'd prefer.

tenda
11-12-2004, 07:48 AM
...interesting evolution...!!!!!! :P :P
...before they're using the sterling...right ...????' ;)

DeltaWhisky58
11-12-2004, 08:51 AM
...interesting evolution...!!!!!! :P :P
...before they're using the sterling...right ...????' ;)

Not quite...............

Since the introduction of the SA80, our armour crews have been issued with a comination of the SA80 and Browning 9mm pistol. The Sterling SMG was phased out as the SA80 came into service around 14 years ago.

tenda
11-12-2004, 08:55 AM
...interesting evolution...!!!!!! :P :P
...before they're using the sterling...right ...????' ;)

Not quite...............

Since the introduction of the SA80, our armour crews have been issued with a comination of the SA80 and Browning 9mm pistol. The Sterling SMG was phased out as the SA80 came into service around 14 years ago.
..ok...tnx... ;) ;) ;)

MEGR
11-12-2004, 10:10 AM
I see some British soldiers already using C7s.. There are some pics in the Afghanistan photo section.. It appears that only Brit SOF are using it rather than ordinary infantry...

Yep SF are using the C7 and C8 and last time i heard from an armourer in that community the M16/Car15 had been withdrawn in favour of the Canadian version.

It would be an excellent replacement for the SA80 but having played with a G36 thats what I'd prefer.

Cool. G36 is a sweet piece of firepower.. Curious, you think that all nations in the European Union will adopt the G36?

Ayura
11-12-2004, 04:11 PM
I see some British soldiers already using C7s.. There are some pics in the Afghanistan photo section.. It appears that only Brit SOF are using it rather than ordinary infantry...

Yep SF are using the C7 and C8 and last time i heard from an armourer in that community the M16/Car15 had been withdrawn in favour of the Canadian version.

It would be an excellent replacement for the SA80 but having played with a G36 thats what I'd prefer.

Cool. G36 is a sweet piece of firepower.. Curious, you think that all nations in the European Union will adopt the G36?

It's a German made weapon...and I don't think the UK would enjoy the fact using a German made weapon...

But personally, I don't see a problem, as we are all mates now :) It's just those politicians mate...it's just those politicians.

digrar
11-12-2004, 08:15 PM
It's a German made weapon...and I don't think the UK would enjoy the fact using a German made weapon...


They don't seem to mind using a German improved weapon....

Ayura
11-12-2004, 09:40 PM
It's a German made weapon...and I don't think the UK would enjoy the fact using a German made weapon...


They don't seem to mind using a German improved weapon....


But the company was partly owned by the British...

MEGR
11-13-2004, 12:10 AM
HK makes good stuff.. Their stuff is used world wide so why not just use one rifle in Europe? BTW, are the French satified with the Famas rifles?

marktigger
11-13-2004, 05:59 AM
well considering that the next Truck utility Light/Medium will be a mix of Merceedes G wagon and Styer Pinzgauers and the New Truck will be built by MAN I think the army has goten over it germanphobia. I hope its the G36 or XM8 we get next

Glock
11-13-2004, 09:59 AM
Also the steyr AUG A3 would be a nice choice. :D

Carlos
11-15-2004, 06:01 AM
Also the steyr AUG A3 would be a nice choice. :D

You mean this new gun with this truely impressive malaysian quality?

Anyone still has these pics from those malaysian AUG's?

If they don't improve on that there is quite a chance that Steyr did something terribly dumb.

Little J
11-15-2004, 07:19 AM
Also the steyr AUG A3 would be a nice choice. :D

You mean this new gun with this truely impressive malaysian quality?

Anyone still has these pics from those malaysian AUG's?

If they don't improve on that there is quite a chance that Steyr did something terribly dumb.


Sorry for being a dumb-****, but what you on about? Did they fall apart or something?

Glock
11-15-2004, 02:19 PM
Also the steyr AUG A3 would be a nice choice. :D

You mean this new gun with this truely impressive malaysian quality?

Anyone still has these pics from those malaysian AUG's?

If they don't improve on that there is quite a chance that Steyr did something terribly dumb.

There is also a version from ADI i think that the ADI AUG A3 is better.

Michael RVR
11-15-2004, 11:15 PM
Yeah i've heard that somewhere, someone in the army is getting A3's, but i've no idea who it is or what they're like.

If all of europe ended up armed with the same weapon system - ala G36 - it'd certainly make life more interesting ;)

AFAIK the french dont have problems with the FAMAS, though i suppose like any weapon system it will need replacing eventually.

digrar
11-16-2004, 01:59 AM
^ I think it is up for trial.