IDF Light Support Weapon

[ShotOver]

In the Israeli Defence Force, what weapons do they use in their squad as a light support weapon? Or squad machine gun.

American’s have the M249 and the M240b, so what do the Israeli’s use?
I ask this, because I am yet to view a picture of an IDF infantry squad with a light support weapon being operated by a soldier.

Thank's for any information.

[IDFM203]

Israel uses its homemade "negv that is built in israel.The Negev LMG was developed in the early 1990's, with the IDF operational needs and specifications in mind. It was designed to replace all current LMG used in the IDF on all the relevant platforms - infantry, vehicle, airborne and maritime. Until then the LMG used by the IDF

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/Negev_13.jpg
The standard Negev LMG has a 46 cm barrel, weighs 7.60 kg, and is 102 cm in length when in the retracted stock position, and 78 cm in the stock folded position.

The Negev Commando LMG has a 33 cm barrel, weighs 6.95 kg, and is only 890 cm in length when in the retracted stock position (less then a M16A1/A2 assault rifle), and just 68 cm in the stock folded position.


here is a couple of pics of them in action..

http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/special/egoz/21.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev-sf-general.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev-2.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/golany2.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev-32.jpg
http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/atv/atv-2.jpg

[EvanL]

http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/atv/atv-2.jpg

Ohh my god man no watch cover!!!!!!!!
:lol:

[IDFM203]

http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/atv/atv-2.jpg

Ohh my god man no watch cover!!!!!!!!
:lol:Yes and these are ex soldiers that are out of the military that were testing this new "desert raider".

Nice try but no cigar here.........try again (which I am sure that you will). :D :D

Oh and does Canada have watch covers?!?

[EvanL]

check out www.canadianpeacekeeper.com they have tons of geat including watch covers. But i guess small things amuse small minds because im not as interested as you are in watch covers.

[IDFM203]

check out www.canadianpeacekeeper.com they have tons of geat including watch covers. But i guess small things amuse small minds because im not as interested as you are in watch covers.Wow where to begin on this one……………

First of all this is a military forum and as such I asked if other militaries have them, that is all. I didnt offend anyone here. I don’t need to post and respond to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict all day.


Secondly the fact that you termed it a little thing shows me your lack of any real military experience or for that matter any real experience in setting up an ambush or lying in wait in one.

No, it is a little thing that when overlooked can be a huge problem. If you don’t have one and you are in an ambush setting and for some reason you have your arm a bit stretched where your watch is showing, the sun reflection coming from the glass of the watch can give you position miles away.

Hey but I guess you wouldn’t understand what I am talking about………

Oh and you are not interested in “small things” as you say, but you found the time to nit pic at one picture and point it out. yeah your not interested in small things.rofl rofl rofl rofl yeah your not of a small and juvanile mind. rofl rofl rofl rofl

[EvanL]

Wow, id say thats a little bit of an over-reaction.. Anyone? ANyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[IDFM203]

Wow, id say thats a little bit of an over-reaction.. Anyone? ANyone? Bueller? Bueller?yes I overreacted a bit.......sorry.

but still, a reaction was needed (perhaps not as stong as I put it)

but I hope you still got my point.

:D :D

[Haiw]

geez, let's start WW3 over watch covers :roll:

[Dennis G]

hey idfm203 does the IDF have a Marine Corp. maritime attack force other then Shayetet 13 I am talking about larger scale force?

[IDFM203]

hey idfm203 does the IDF have a Marine Corp. maritime attack force other then Shayetet 13 I am talking about larger scale force?No they don’t have one now. “givati” which is now a regular infantry brigade, was that in the eighties and in fact had a lot of joint exercises with the marines in that capability (there are still joint exercises or mock battles between various idf units and various U.S. units including the marines, just not in that capability). That capability was disbanded in the 90's for Israel simply didn’t feel that they have the need to field a maritime force. Israel simply doesn’t now need that capability. So they don’t have one now but if the need should ever arise, they can always start it up again.

I don’t think you were doing this but just to make it clear, “Shayetet 13” is compared to the navy seal’s and not to the marines. Just to make that clear.

I hope this information helps……….

[Dennis G]

It certainly does thanks idfm I know Shayetet 13 is more like the Seals then the Marines I didn't know whether they where your only naval forces or not.

Thanks Dennis

[Andyman]

I think that IDF is secretly insecure, he always snaps at everyone over the littlelest thing and each defense is followed by a corresponding insult directed at the person who he's attacking. To tell you the honest truth all that riff raff before was hularious, and he's still at it again. You need to relax Israel cause you're to uptight. But hey maybe, since he lives in Israel, he might just have a good reason to be a little afraid. If you know what I mean. Relax IDF you aren't scaring anyone from debating so what exactly are you trying to do. And you say Juvenile well it takes one to know one.

[IDFM203]

It certainly does thanks idfm I know Shayetet 13 like more like the Seals then the Marines I didn't know whether they where your only naval forces or not.

Thanks Dennisno problem, always glad to help a brother in arms (especially since we are fighting the noble fight against the same enemies) :D

[IDFM203]

I think that IDF is secretly insecure, he always snaps at everyone over the littlelest thing and each defense is followed by a corresponding insult directed at the person who he's attacking. To tell you the honest truth all that riff raff before was hularious, and he's still at it again. You need to relax Israel cause you're to uptight. But hey maybe, since he lives in Israel, he might just have a good reason to be a little afraid. If you know what I mean. Relax IDF you aren't scaring anyone from debating so what exactly are you trying to do. And you say Juvenile well it takes one to know one. so first you go ape **** and huff and puff about all Jews this and all Jews that simply because some Jewish girl dumped you because of your two inch ***** and now you are doing the same thing to me (huffing and puffing about me) and even following me on other threads simply because I destroyed your sorry ass in the one debate we had (you remember your great quote how you read things in “national geographic” and how because of that you feel that you are some expert on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict rofl rofl . Or your other quote where you said if only Hitler had finished the job........all this because of some Jewish girl…………) what a sour puss you are.


I already acknowledged openly here that I went a bit overboard in my response to his(EvanLloyed) personal insinuations at me, but that is one case. Most cases I am responding in the exact tones that I am receiving. (Like here for example with you) I don’t snap at anyone. I have every right to respond to peoples snapping at me (and the snapping comes in many different forms)


As for insecurity. If I was insecure I would be on some pro Israel site receiving accolades all day, I sure as hell wouldn’t go on here and put my self out to every antagonistic anti Israel post that you find here. No, voluntary coming in here on a daily bases and constantly responding to antagonistic comments when I don’t have to be here at all in the first place is not a sign of insecurity but rather one of pure confidence!!!!

No, what’s insecure is you bashing a whole people (the Jewish people) and constantly doing it simply because a Jewish girl dumped your sorry ass.

I am not trying to scare anyone. Obviously though my posts have scared your sorry ass for you felt the need to jump in this thread when I never said anything directed at you.

I am relaxed. In fact I am laughing my ass off right now at your stupidity and the fact that some Jewish girl dumped you and that you are still crying about it. Man that’s funny…… rofl rofl ..

As for what I am trying to do. Well I guess I am a prisoner to my sigline especially the one in red. In essence I like this site. I like to be around former or present soldiers of any service. I would prefer to actually talk more military matters. But again I find myself embroiled a lot with responding to clear falsehoods on the Israeli/Palestinian front and again that’s just me following my heart and keeping true to my sigline. (No matter how big of a moron you are).

[IDFM203]

It certainly does thanks idfm I know Shayetet 13 is more like the Seals then the Marines I didn't know whether they where your only naval forces or not.

Thanks Dennisjust to follow up on my last post to you.......

Dennis once you asked me that question you actually got me thinking about the old "Givati" and Israel’s past amphibious brigade and its capabilities and being that this is after all militaryphotos.net I figured I would search for some photos about it. It was hard to find but I tracked down two photos from the eighties……I am curious to know what you think about them.(again cut it some slack for it is from the eighties and it is not as modern as I am sure it is today).

http://147.237.72.31/topsrch/datafile/wwwm4352.gif
http://147.237.72.31/topsrch/datafile/wwwm4363.gif

[El'Potato]

Hey hey!! Slow down idf!!

That person did not make a personal attack, so it was rather unnecessary of you to do it!
Jesus, you really need to lay down a bit! I don't know wether it's cultural clashes and what you do is not overreacting in Israel, but here it is kind of to much...

If you want to learn a person something, do it in a kind way! Do you really think that someone you called a homo gay fag is going to see your great point that you had behind that personal attack?

No he won't, but if you would skip that bit about his ***** and use the same langauge/temper as you would with a friend then I can assure you that the person at least would listen!

To be honest, I don't even read 1/10th of your posts because I think I would be able to expect more from a servicemen, everything get's so out of hand when you try to express your opinions! Try to relax and use a swedish military remembering phrase! TTT = Think, Think, Talk

If you'll do that I'm sure that you could show your real, good side and make your opinions heard and not only your cursing!



Now I would appricieate if you would take this post as what it is, a good advice and not get to personal with me :)

Have a good one!
// Micke

[IDFM203]

First of all el potato I didn’t call anyone a homo gay fag (Where did you get that from?!?……….Id appreciate it if you would not make up false things about what I said or did not say)

Secondly your criticism of me would perhaps be relevant if this was "andymans" first personal attack on me and my response to him would in that case seem a bit over exaggerated. But no, he has been going on in other threads here about me or the Jewish people. And yes all of it has been because of some Jewish girl, heck he admitted that. And yes he said “if only Hitler had finished the job” blah blah.. So give me a break. I was very cordial up to a point. This thread here had nothing to do with him and he jumped in out of the blue attacking me. You say he didn’t offend me well you weren’t at the receiving end of what he was saying. It is clear in his snide way of putting things that he was insulting me and my character. And the only reason why I responded this way was because I had enough this time. If someone is following you onto another threads and insulting you are being very rude to you, that person should expect a response (especialy one who says the things he says about hitler). You would do the same thing.

I don’t want to get in a flame war with you or anyone else here. But I will always defend and respond to personal attacks or insinuations. There would be no comebacks by me if none were started by others.

Oh and how hypocritical of you to whine about personal insults when I haven’t said one thing directed at you, yet you come it me insulting my military character.

I don’t know which military you were in (again I am RESPONDING here to your false insiuations about my military service...get it?!? responding!!!)but in mine we are taught to respond in kind to attacks being directed at us. Notice I have not started one personal attack on this board, NOT ONE!!!!!!!! I have every right to respond and defend myself here. It just amazes me that when I as a Jew defends himself here against some of you (thank god it is only a small number of you……..actually it’s the usual suspects of anti U.S.[like what you have admitted to being] or anti Israel people) that it just irks the hell out of you. Well that’s your problem not mine. Heck go read my sigline. I have every right to defend myself!!

Next time write a post about the ones who start these insults then perhaps I will listen to what you have to say or really care about what you are saying.

Good day.......
:D

[El'Potato]

But Jesus H. Christ god allmighty!!!

When I said something like homo gay fag I took it as an example!!
And hwo did I attack you?!?! For all I know my intention was to aid you since you are a weeeeeeeee bit to aggressive around here!!

And where did you get that I insulte you military character??
The thing is, one that HAVE served really should be more humble than you are!!
You are using your religion like some kind of a shield here now!
Do you think I am an anti-semit just trying to give you a good advice on how to get your voice heard?

Listen closely and carefully now, I had 3 people on my mothers side (yes, I'm born swedish but mother and all on her sides are poles or germans) killed by the nazis!! Now will you call me a jewish hater again? WILL YOU??

Of course you have all the right to defend yourself, but that doesn't include every measure, does it? Would you call it self defense when you knock some one down first, and then decide that you could kick him a little while he is unconsiuoss and harmless? Is that self defense?

And did he attack you? No, he asked the others if they didn't agree on you being a weeeeeeee bit hostile towards others!

I for one agree with him now!
Can you please drop that "bad ass, hard core operator who knows best" attitude?


Of course it's wrong of others to "assault" you, as it IS equally wrong for you to do it against them, how much of a jew you are!! You can't hide behind the accusation of everyone being anti-semit!

Personally, I have no military experience since I am to young. But I've talked to many who have served and serve right now. So I get alot from them!

Ok, now I'm through.
Could you ever see me as a friendly?
I could see you as one, since most of your people has been through the same that some of mine has...

Have a good one!
// Micke

[IDFM203]

No!!!!!!!!!! you calm down. Geeeeeez !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where did you come from?!?….

I never said that you were an anti-semite. How dare you make it out that I called you that. I have never called anyone an anti Semite here!!!!No I don’t think that you are an anti semite and yes I do recognise that you lost family to the natzis.

No, I find it strange that when I am defending my self you have a problem with that. I mean you didn’t write anything against andy man when he said his Hitler comments. You didn’t write anything when andyman went off in the other threads with negative comments against the jews etc etc. No, It is strange for I see that you have only 9 or ten posts and that there are other flame wars here on this board (not to mention again andymans other comments) but yet you chose to come in here on this thread and make a post directed at me. I find that very curious to say the least.

Secondly this thread was started by someone who asked about the Israeli negav and I responded to that with a detailed description of that, then you had some Canadian (even Lloyed) come in and make this small insinuations at me seemingly out of the blue when he said “But i guess small things amuse small minds because im not as interested as you are in watch covers” and then I responded to that. Now I had admitted that I had a right to respond and that a response was warranted but yes I also admitted that I might have gone too far, whereas I even apologized for doing so. Here’s what I had said “yes I overreacted a bit.......sorry.”.

I had already admitted that. There was no need for someone else to come in here and tell me something that I had already admitted to. And in fact apologized to. Yet he somehow felt the need to jump in out of the blue and in the clear rude way in which he did. Besides like I had said before this is not the first time andyman came at me. He has said all sorts of clearly racist things against Jews (heck even some members that aren’t so friendly to me even they admitted that, like when he said “if only Hitler had finished the job” and things of that nature………)

Now when you say “Would you call it self defence when you knock some one down first, and then decide that you could kick him a little while he is unconsiuoss and harmless? Is that self defense” that is my whole problem with you and that is the point I am making. Yes if that is what happened than I would be wrong. But NO, I did not knock anyone down first or even insulted any one first. No andyman has been at me for a while now. Get that?!? My problem with you is if you are so self righteous now why didnt you come at andyman when he was making his initial comments on other threads or even on this one when it was he who first said his rude comments at me without me even saying anything at all to him. No it was him first and (now it is also you first).again all this is after I had already admmited publiclly that I had gone to far in this one instence and had even apoligised for it.

In fact can you please drop that self righteous moral high ground position that you have seemingly placed yourself on. Its not a fitting place for you to be (at least from what I have seen up to now).

If you are so self rigtous and just into giving friendly advice then how about you actually post substantive posts on this board instead of criticizing me.

Oh and of course we can be friends. Heck I hope after this I have cleared up any misunderstands you might have had (or at least I hope so) and I look forward to hearing and listening or debating you on the issues rather on these petty insults that we have going here.

Shalom and good day.

[El'Potato]

We've gotten a really bad start it seems like here...

To answer why I haven't jumped on any other flamewar. Well, I didn't feel like reading all the billions of topics around here so I haven't noticed andymans insults on you, and for that I appoligize.

The part of anti-semite I got from you writing anti-israeli people.
And I do NOT have a problem with you defending yourself at all!
It's about how aggressive you are in doing so, that's why I draw the paralell with self defense, but I forgot to give the whole story being: One man kicks you, you knock him down. THEN you kick him a little while he's neutralized long ago.

I think you overreact to often, that's maybe why I picked you from the start? You always notice those who makes most of the noice, how righteus it could have been! No? And you sure as hell makes it clear that you defend yourself :D

But why do you say I am self righteus? I think you use the word wrong, self righteus is the same as being egoistic, and I can not draw any paralell where I show any such signs?
Might be that you see me as one that has the mind set on being right all the time? Well, I'd like to deny that I'm either one or the other kind of person. Rather, I'm humble. But don't take my word on that, better to get your own UNobjective opinion about me!

And well, why should I drop something that is a part of my?
I am in fact one that tries to have as high morals as possible. Although I'm filled with flaws of course, I am just 17 years old. Cannot expect to much of me.

And I think you've cleared up most of the missunderstandings, yes!

And once again I appoligize if you think that I attacked you, because that was never my intention!

Of course I would love to debate with you now, when we both know where we stand! :)
Just give me a topic where you want my opinion given and I'll do my best!

Have a good one!
// Micke

[StarvingStudent47]

http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/atv/atv-2.jpg

Ohh my god man no watch cover!!!!!!!!
:lol:

Watch cover or no, I gotta get me one of those MG-toting ATVs!!!

(by the way, everyone needs to chill out in this thread. First there was the watch cover war, which frankly baffled me. Then Andyman made some normal Andyman-type comment, then IDFm203 responded vigorously, then El'Potato may have misunderstood that the long-standing feud between Andyman and IDFm203 was just that...and the next thing you know we're having the internet version of the Battle of Stalingrad. Seriously. Remember how this thread started? "What does the IDF use as an LSW"? So let's chat about the Negev, shall we?)

[El'Potato]

You're right Starvingstudent and I appoligize :oops:

So back on topic! Which is the MRBF of the Negev and how many rounds can one barrel take?

[Haiw]

and how many rounds can one barrel take?
one at a time? ;)

[El'Potato]

hehe, real fun =)

I meant the barrellife, you know how many rounds in total the barrel can take before breaking? :)

While I'm at it, sustained fire, how many rounds is it then? And how often do you change the barrel? Every 200 rounds or so like on most LMGs?

[IDFM203]

To el’potato head.

I appreciate you showing much maturity now in understanding the true nature of my intent here and that it wasn’t merely an attack on anyone who simply disagrees with me. Like I have always said. I reserve the right to respond in kind to attacks being thrown at me. That is what happened here especially with regards to andymans past behaviour here on this site.

You greatly impressed me now with your ability to clearly listen to the other side (me) and not just continue to flame away. I appreciate that and I look forward to our future conversations on the net. I am sure that we are not going to agree on everything but at least I know now that we can do it in a matter that is both respectful of each others opinions as I do now have of yours.

Just to make one clarification. If you go back you will see that I never said that you were anti Israel, no I just said that you were anti American as you your self openly admitted on this board to being. That is all I said about you. this is what I said “thank god it is only a small number of you……..actually it’s the usual suspects of anti U.S.[like what you have admitted to being] or anti Israel people” meaning that you are an anti American and the anti Israel people.

Though I must admit now that we are talking about it, it has occurred to me to ask you honestly if there is actually a difference?!? I mean I always assumed that an anti American was also an anti Israeli…is that true?!?

Amway’s that’s all for now.

Shalom!!




Oh and anything to know about the great negav is right here on this site....enjoy.
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negevguide.htm

[ArmoredDov_D9]

IdfM203, did uou have an experience with the Negev? Do you prefer it over the FN Mag (7.62mm) and the Minimi (5.56mm)?

I heard it is considered to be excellent LMG.

[IDFM203]

IdfM203, did uou have an experience with the Negev? Do you prefer it over the FN Mag (7.62mm) and the Minimi (5.56mm)?

I heard it is considered to be excellent LMG.well first of all as you can see from my screen name, my primary weapon was not the “negav” but it was the “matol” or to be more specific the “matolon” (M203 grenade launcher).

Now of course as a soldier in a combat unit, I have had experience with all these weapons. I have in fact fired both on numerous occasions (the mag I have even fired in combat situations as well)

Yes the negv is a great weapon. As a light machine gun it is definitely one of the best in the world. It really is a beautiful and light weapon to have. There are also all sorts of laser and night vision attachments which really make this weapon modern and cutting edge.

Now with all that said. The FN Mag or as it is simply know as the “mag”, is simply awesome. Yes its much heavier then the negav but at the same time, it defiantly packs a much more powerful punch. There is simply no comparison when firing the mag to the negav. The mag is a much more powerful weapon, that comes across clearly when you fire the both of them.

In actuality you cant compare both weapons. That is why; in the Israeli army each platoon has both the negav and the mag that compliment each other.

So to answer what I prefer. I can’t really answer that for both are vital and both compliment each other. The mag packs a much more powerful punch while the negev is much lighter as well as it is capable of having more modern attachments to it then the mag.

Now I have never fired the Fn minimi and that is because I guess the negav replaced that. So I never got the chance. Is it better then the minimi?!? I don’t know. I am not sure if the negav replacement was due to politics or in fact because it is better. I simply don’t know. Lets not forget that both are of the 5.56mm while the mag is the 7.62mm


That’s the best answer I can give.

Oh and thanks for getting us back on topic.

“yesh poh malah manyakim v antishemetim v sh’hem rok rotzhe le’asoat bayot neged kol ha israelim pho”

[StarvingStudent47]

Disclaimer: I have NO first-hand experience with these weapons. However, from what I have read, a Negev is heavier than an M249, but is more reliable in hot, gritty desert environments (I think that was from http://www.isayeret.com/ ). I don't know whether that applies to barrel life, or just jamming issues.

[Andyman]

Need I say more. IDF whenever you post it annoys me in such a way that I have to say something. You have no idea, about my past relationship, or why it failed. Frankly I feel that I went out on a limb to actually bring that up. Therefore whenever you respond to my accusations you imply things like you're a fatass, or I have a 2 inch ***** (thats from the ground by the way) and blah blah blah. I stand behind all my convictions, I am not a racist, some of my comments may make me seem that way, I agree however I do remember apologizing to you earlier and your snappy remarks continue. It is clear that you have a problem with not just me on this site. I have read numerous posts where your defenses involve insults and flamboyant accusations about that individuals standpoint. I repeat, You clearly do have a problem with not just me. Your posts annoy me and I really do try to avoid them, but when they pop up on a post I just always fell the need to step up. You are immature and very touchy on the guns. Therefore I'm leaving you with an ultimatum, I will discontinue my attacks against you, if you discontinue you immature conduct (name calling, blowing your stack etc.) towards me and other members on this site. It has become clear to me that we are both fighting a losing battle, you dont know me and I dont know you. And as someone once so eloquently put it: fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olympics...even if you win your still a retard.

[IDFM203]

Need I say more. IDF whenever you post it annoys me in such a way that I have to say something. You have no idea, about my past relationship, or why it failed. Frankly I feel that I went out on a limb to actually bring that up. Therefore whenever you respond to my accusations you imply things like you're a fatass, or I have a 2 inch ***** (thats from the ground by the way) and blah blah blah. I stand behind all my convictions, I am not a racist, some of my comments may make me seem that way, I agree however I do remember apologizing to you earlier and your snappy remarks continue. It is clear that you have a problem with not just me on this site. I have read numerous posts where your defenses involve insults and flamboyant accusations about that individuals standpoint. I repeat, You clearly do have a problem with not just me. Your posts annoy me and I really do try to avoid them, but when they pop up on a post I just always fell the need to step up. You are immature and very touchy on the guns. Therefore I'm leaving you with an ultimatum, I will discontinue my attacks against you, if you discontinue you immature conduct (name calling, blowing your stack etc.) towards me and other members on this site. It has become clear to me that we are both fighting a losing battle, you dont know me and I dont know you. And as someone once so eloquently put it: fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olympics...even if you win your still a retard.Your right we could go back and forth. Just to make it clear here. In most cases I have been responding to your comments. and some of them like your "if only hitler had finished the job" or other clearly inflammatory comments against all Jews in general (where even some of the Europeans who generally disagree with me, had to even admit that you had gone to far) simply because you dated a Jewish girl as you said so your self had proved that you were an outright racist.. I guess the only immaturity I exhibited was responding to your immaturity. You have until now shown to be a complete waste of bandwidth.

Now I wont need to respond if you don’t make your immature and inflammatory posts. I am not the only one on this board who has a problem with you so lets not go with that everyone comment. Oh and the few that I have had a problem with, if you notice I have actually come to quite an amicable understanding with them where I am even on a friendly PM bases with them now as wee see eve from el potato where we are now fine and very amicable. Even the one Muslim (the member “one” ) on this board has openly said that he respects me and how I have conducted myself here.

I hope that could be the same with you. actions speak louder then words my friend (yes I say that for I am always hopeful and I try to make friends with every one as opposed to enemies although I will always respond to foolish comments especially as most from you were just that and I can only hope that you didn’t mean your Hitler comment) so you keep it clean and level headed and I will to. You escalate it again and I will respond in kind

Shalom :D

[El'Potato]

First of!

IDF: Well I'm glad that we both respect each other now and that we can keep sane and mature discussions in the future as well as here!

Of course we won't agree on everything, but I feel we're much on the same level when it comes to the military matters at hand.


To another matter, where you asked if an anti-American automatically hates Israel.
Well I don't, but it feels kind of individual :)
The thing is, I don't like that Israel expands it's territory and tries to justify house raising to gain new ground on former terrorists.

Now I don't incline that they do it all the time, but they do it.
If they just could withdraw all their forces and only have territory which they rightfully claimed during the -73 war I would be happy, and I believe most of the Palestinians would as well.

Maybe one way to make it out with two sides happy could be a cooperation between the Palestinian security forces and the IDF? Letting IDF aid in all the major bustings of Hamas/Hezbollah/what ever operatives. But that is perhaps just a dream?

But to make it short.
No, I don't hate Israel, I respect and admire them of their military history winning 3 out of 3 wars which they in every one were understrengthed compared to the enemy.
But, I do feel they use the wrong tactics on Palestinians and their land.

Think that's all from me for now :)

Have a good one everybody!
// Micke

[IDFM203]

I am happy that we have come to an amicable understanding; it is certainly better then when you first came at me. I am happy that we cleared it up.

Frankly I am to tired right now to go over your post and respond point by point in great detail, I will just say that you made a few inaccuracies right off the bat.

Israel has been in 6 wars and has won all of them

Israel did already work with the Palestinians during the Oslo period, but then it turned out that a lot of them were really working with the terrorists organisations

Oh and there is no solution to Israel just giving up the 1967 or 73 borders, for a lot of the Palestinians are fighting for the whole Israel. This was evident when Israel kept on giving back land and more land and all it got back in return was more killing and more killing

Oh and one last point here. Israel in most cases was responding and also only targeting murderers and killer’s whereas the Palestinians in most cases have targeted innocent civilians

Now we can go on here but there are already a lot of other more detailed discussions about this on this board so I suggest you post your comments there for it is quite tiresome for me to repeat the details that I have already posted in those threads.

Thanks for your understanding.

shalom :D

[Andyman]

listen man one more thing. How does a guy who is a complete racist date somebody who is Jewish, it defies all logic. I brought that up in the same light as defending my prejudicial neutrality. I was merely trying to point out that I was not treated well by that particular group of people and that may have weened my judgements. Claiming that I am a racist is all wrong, I hate everyone equally rofl (JOKES). Anyways the hitler comment was made more so on the basis too get a rise out of some people. It was a little out of line however my standpoint on such issues has will forever be one that does not involve rediculous comments based on uneducated facts. My statement was in effect true and in its truthness was aimed at irritating you in particular. Anyways fighting is rediculous and it is clear that neither of us will benefit by continuing to do so. I will admit to some of my comments being immature and brutish, but we all know how we can get sometimes RIGHT. So yeah just dont freak out anymore cause that just gets on my nerves. My apologies p-)

[El'Potato]

Yes sir, if I'll ever get the energy to go through all the Israel-Palestina conflict topicsI'll point up some views.

But right now... Well, school comes first! ;)

However, I did not know it was 6 wars, the ones I've read about has been the -48, -63 and -73.
Which other wars has Israel fought?

All other points and views from me will turn up somewhere else!

Have a good one!
// Micke

[UoUo]

1948

1956

1967

1973

1982

And maybe : the first gulf war.

[IDFM203]

Were almost there. I just want to firmly clear up any misunderstandings or make my positions a bit more clear. I hope after this to move on and get into it (for I am sure we still disagree on some things) on a friendly and respectful manner.


listen man one more thing. How does a guy who is a complete racist date somebody who is Jewish, it defies all logic. yes it does but then again how does Hitler supposedly have a Jewish grandfather or something of that nature. Things are not always explainable. Oh and the point is that you came off as being a racist towards all Jews simply after a Jewish girl dumped you which was what the whole point I was trying to make. That your attitudes were ridicules since it was basically based on that


I brought that up in the same light as defending my prejudicial neutrality. I was merely trying to point out that I was not treated well by that particular group of people and that may have weened my judgements. there are 6.5 million jews in north America you had one relationship with one Jewish girl and her family. And yet you base you hostility on a whole people because of that. I am sorry to say this and I don’t mean to be rude but that is frankly pretty childish and pretty stupid.


Claiming that I am a racist is all wrong, I hate everyone equally rofl (JOKES). I didn’t at first claim you were anything. I try not to simply throw labels out on anyone for they are hard to prove. Though after your Hitler comment I simply couldn’t ignore it.

Oh what?!? You hate everyone?!? you mean to tell me that you have been dumped by girls from every race and every ethnicity?!? rofl (JOKES).



Anyways fighting is rediculous and it is clear that neither of us will benefit by continuing to do so. I will admit to some of my comments being immature and brutish, but we all know how we can get sometimes RIGHT. ). yes indeed we do. OK?!?
I guess I will admit to responding and dropping to your low lever of immature and brutish comments and doing so in kind. I should have known and acted better.
I agree lets hopefully get past this. I am someone that defiantly can move on I just hope that is the same for you.


So yeah just dont freak out anymore cause that just gets on my nerves. ). listen this in an Internet forum where discussions and arguments go on. I don’t freak out at all. I am usually very clam and relaxed with a diet coke on the table. I guess sometimes I don’t appreciate the power of words, if you on the other end can feel it as me freaking out and it scares you or perhaps just rattles your nerves. Well For that I apologise and will try to be more careful next time.

Shalom. :D

[IDFM203]

1948

1956

1967

1973

1982

And maybe : the first gulf war. No just to add. The sixth war was the war of attrition, which started after the 1967 war and ended in 1970.

[Andyman]

yes indeed we do. OK?!?
I guess I will admit to responding and dropping to your low lever of immature and brutish comments and doing so in kind. I should have known and acted better.
I agree lets hopefully get past this. I am someone that defiantly can move on I just hope that is the same for you.

why do you elevate yourself still though. Why do you have to refer to it as my lower level I have seen and read with my own to eyes you bashing many people, and yet you claim that it is still their fault. I'm not trying to point blame but geeze man you dont come to terms with someone by further insulting them. You did not drop to any level that you were not already at boy. Don't act like you're better, don't treat others with disrespect and maybe it will not come back to you. What goes around comes around. Maybe look at my mistreatment of you as reasonable attack based on how we were treating each other. My actions and you'res were justifiable.

"The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem problem"

[ArmoredDov_D9]

The Wars of Israel

1948 The Indepedence War: Israel vs Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinians. The Arabs goal was to destroy Israel. They failed. Israel managed to defend itself and even occupy and anex areas out of the partition plan (such as Eilat and the Galilee).

1956 The Sinai War (Operation Kadesh) : Israel vs Egypt. Israel overran the Egyptian army, captured the entire Sinai Peninsula and forced Egypt to dismantle their Fedayeen terrorists. Israel later withdrew undder international pressure.

1967 Six Days War: Israel vs Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Within 6 days the 3 great Arab armies are defeat, their air-forces is completly inhiliated and Israel capture the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula and the entire West Bank. The most important achievement: the liberation of the Western wall and the reunification of Jerusalem.

1967-1970 The Attrition War: Israel vs Egypt and Syria. Mainly trench war and mutual bombardments.

1973 Yom Kippur War: Israel vs Egypt and Syria (aided by Iraq). Israel is attacked by suprise in the Jewish most holiest day but manage to hold the offenders. Within few days Israel launch caunter attack and recaptures all the prewar territories and pushes foward to enemies' rear. It withdraw to prewar border after signing a cease-fire treaty.

1982 Lebanon War (Operation "Peace of Galilee"): Israel vs Syria, Lebanon and the PLO. Israel invades Lebanon in order to driven away PLO terrorists who bombard the northern villages of Israel and launched terrorist to murder Israeli civilians. After destroying the Syrian air-force and the Syrian AA guns they clearing south Lebanon outof PLO terrorists.
Israeli forces reach as far as Beirut and after heavy bombardment and Americam involvement the PLO is being deported into Tunis. Israel keeping a security-zone in Lebanon but get complicated with the Lebanese civil war as Christian Phalangist massacres 1000 Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

2002 Operation Defensive Shield and Determined Path: After a deadly wave of Palestinian Terror (Passover Massacre (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Massacre) Israel raids the West Bank in order to root out terrorism. Dozens of terrorist are being and hundreds of them being arrested. Large quantities of illegal weapons and bombs are being confiscated. In Jenin, Palestinian heavily wired the camp thus inflicting 23 casualties to IDF infantry. After a deadly ambush, The IDF oporated the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers massively and within two days razing the entier Al-Hawashin district, the terrorist stronghold which contained thousands of explosive charges and ****y-traps. All the terrorist of Jenin surrender after the great demolition sparks an international controversy. Palestians allegations of massacre proved to be false. After the two operation, the waves of terror dramitcly decreased.

[El'Potato]

Well, thank you for the information!
Learn something new every day, or so they say...

// Micke

[IDFM203]

yes indeed we do. OK?!?
I guess I will admit to responding and dropping to your low lever of immature and brutish comments and doing so in kind. I should have known and acted better.
I agree lets hopefully get past this. I am someone that defiantly can move on I just hope that is the same for you.

why do you elevate yourself still though. Why do you have to refer to it as my lower level I have seen and read with my own to eyes you bashing many people, and yet you claim that it is still their fault. I'm not trying to point blame but geeze man you dont come to terms with someone by further insulting them. You did not drop to any level that you were not already at boy. Don't act like you're better, don't treat others with disrespect and maybe it will not come back to you. What goes around comes around. Maybe look at my mistreatment of you as reasonable attack based on how we were treating each other. My actions and you'res were justifiable.

"The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem problem"Andyman, stop speaking for others here. You seem to always look for salvation in the way you think I am interacting with others as if you are innocent of all blame here. How I treat others and how I am treated in return is not of your concern. You come off as if you are representing everyone else here. Your not!! believe me. They don’t need you speaking for them . They can defend themselves or speak for themselves. It really is very disingenuous not to mention an elitism attitude when you proclaim that you are speaking for others when you have no bases for that claim..

I don’t have much problems with any one on this board and in case you didn’t realise, the few problems we have had (me and those few) we both rectified and come to an understanding. To your surprise I am actually on a friendly PM bases with those few. Like I said before, even the one Muslim on this board said publicly that he respects me and the way I conduct myself and this is someone that completely disagrees with me.. Overall most people now recognise that I in most cases am only defending myself and responding to the way I am being treated.

Now as for you. when I said drop to your low level I meant that in the past. I am sorry but I did feel a sinking to a low level especially when I responded to a very low blow about the hitler comment and a few other immature comments that you have said which I should have ignored but yet I didn’t and I responded with some of my own immature ones. I admitted that already.

Yes I have already come to terms of how you conducted yourself here and I have also come to terms of how I responded to that.

I hope we can get past that and we can judge the way we interact with each other and not how you think others are interacting with me for believe me I can say the same thing about how others perceive you here (like I said even some Europeans that disagree with me on the ME even they admitted that you had gone to far and that you were not conducting yourself properly) so we can do that everyone game all day. Its a lame tactic that has no merit for our interactions between each other.

Again lets get past this and interact and react based on how we are conducting ourselves with each other

shalom.