British military sidearm

[Giersu]

There's no "Weaponry" forum here, so I'll ask here: what sidearm is presently issued to UK soldiers (officers)? Except for, of course, Browning HP (which, if I understand well, is now being removed from the service); is it Sig Sauer P226?

Anything else?

[wiking]

As i've understood it Britain is going over to Glock, or atleast a large part of the police force is. I might be wrong though.

[Royal]

The L9A1 BHP is not beeing removed from general service any time soon as they've recently had a mid life upgrade.

The Glock family are on very limited issue to some MP's (mostly army and RAF).

The P226, P229 and MP5K (if you can call it a pistol) are issued to SF, some aircrew and some other units.

[martinexsquaddie]

is that like the FV432 midlife upgrade?
So the high power may be leaveing service approx 2050 then?

[Werewolf01]

OK, I'll bite...what does the mid-life upgrade look like and what does it consist of? Does FN still make the P35 for Britain?

[DeltaWhisky58]

The L9A1 Browning pistols (P-35) currently in service, were the very last model produced with spur hammer and ambi safety, although I believe there are also some of the non-ambi safety model around. I would doubt that there are any of the ring-hammer variant left these days, although they were around until not so long ago, and even the WW2 Inglis Brownings were about as late as the early 1980s!

The Walther PP & PPK are also in use in limited numbers by fast jet aircrew.

[Royal]

The Walther PP & PPK are also in use in limited numbers by fast jet aircrew.

To the best of my knowledge they're now using 229's and Baby K's...

[James]

Webley Mk. IV .455.

[Royal]

Webley Mk. IV .455.

Simple and efficient, particulary if you need to drop a charging rhino at close quarters ;)

[Imshi-Yallah]

FYI: Ireland had its Hi-Powers reconditioned about 10 years ago and there is a growing shortage of safe servicable weapons due to frame fatigue, we had planned to acquire a replacement last year but the tender was cancelled to free up funding for a new government jet and our brigade sized deployment for the GWB visit.

The Kiwis have already switched to the P226 and the Australians are considering a replacement sometime this decade, so I cant see the UKs Hi-Powers lasting till 2050...although ours probably will

[Giersu]

Thank you very much for all answers.

[martinexsquaddie]

well the fv432 are getting close to there 45 th birthday
I would'nt be suprised if theres high powers still around thenjavascript:emoticon(':roll:')
Rolling Eyes

[Michael RVR]

FYI: Ireland had its Hi-Powers reconditioned about 10 years ago and there is a growing shortage of safe servicable weapons due to frame fatigue, we had planned to acquire a replacement last year but the tender was cancelled to free up funding for a new government jet and our brigade sized deployment for the GWB visit.

The Kiwis have already switched to the P226 and the Australians are considering a replacement sometime this decade, so I cant see the UKs Hi-Powers lasting till 2050...although ours probably will

I've seen some with abidextrous safetys, not sure what else (very rare that we get 9mm ammo down here), possibly a similar sort of program.

[wiking]

on the subject on British army sidearms, i read somewhere (most likely here) that the British army has a constant shortage of 9mm ammunition and that this cuts hard into pistol training.

[Werewolf01]

on the subject on British army sidearms, i read somewhere (most likely here) that the British army has a constant shortage of 9mm ammunition and that this cuts hard into pistol training.

The SAS burns it all up in their MP5s before the rest of the army can get to it. :D

[oldsoak]

Reality is that someone probably forgot to order it in the belief we dont use it :roll:
We dont manufacture it at Royal Ordnance so we got a batch of Israeli stuff.

[Werewolf01]

Reality is that someone probably forgot to order it in the belief we dont use it :roll:
We dont manufacture it at Royal Ordnance so we got a batch of Israeli stuff.

This may be rumor central, but I was lead to believe that the UK bought their 7.62x51 from Portugal. Is this true???

[martinexsquaddie]

mod buy's a lot of training ammo on the world market
I remember some 9mm from the 80s when fired from an smg stuck in a target at 100 metre belive it was from india or pakistan?

[oldsoak]

I heard that as well - the usual lowest bidder wins. One rumour even went so far as to have an entire batch condemned as useless. Think its was Indian ammo, not Pakistani. Not enoughl bang for the buck which is why we went elsewhere. I would not be suprised if we got 7.62 from Portugal ( reliable and cheap as most European Ammo is) as we are determined to run down ammo production out the UK. :( . Compare this to the US where they do their damndest to keep facilities in house.

[soldierandy]

90% of all 7.62 in UK is from South Africa. Really really cheap, cheaper than making it in RG. They are too busy with 5.56 there. Only gimpies use 7.62 in unlimited quantities and the snipers will use the limited RG black spot 7.62.

[Werewolf01]

mod buy's a lot of training ammo on the world market
I remember some 9mm from the 80s when fired from an smg stuck in a target at 100 metre belive it was from india or pakistan?

A buddy of mine and I collect Enfields, and I have to say that every bit of POF ammo I have ever used has been absolute s**t. Their HK parts are reealy poor quality as well. On the other hand, I have a huge can of Britsh 9mm Sten ammo with WWII headstamps that I run through my MAC10 and it works as well as the day it was made :D

[Haiw]

On the other hand, I have a huge can of Britsh 9mm Sten ammo with WWII headstamps that I run through my MAC10 and it works as well as the day it was made :D
So it still works like ****? p-)

[oldsoak]

90% of all 7.62 in UK is from South Africa. Really really cheap, cheaper than making it in RG. They are too busy with 5.56 there. Only gimpies use 7.62 in unlimited quantities and the snipers will use the limited RG black spot 7.62.

- didnt know that. I was picking up loads of lapua brass 7.62 at the ranges recently while clearing up our brass after range weekend - no links, so assumed it was sniper fodder.Incidentally we had a two different types of packaging as well for 5.56 - one with twenty, another with thirty which caused some rude exclamations when issuing rounds to those doing APWT. The latter round seemed more "pointy" as well but both had RG headstamps IIRC.

[Werewolf01]

On the other hand, I have a huge can of Britsh 9mm Sten ammo with WWII headstamps that I run through my MAC10 and it works as well as the day it was made :D
So it still works like ****? p-)

No, it is very hot ammo and it works really well with the MAC considering that it has not firing pin, just a dimple molded into the bolt just like a Sten.

[Roger Rabbit]

A range i went on in Lydd 2 years ago was full of 9mm brass. Dunno where it was made though.

[Royal]

A range i went on in Lydd 2 years ago was full of 9mm brass. Dunno where it was made though.

SST rofl rofl rofl

[Roger Rabbit]

:roll: utterly confused.

[wiking]

A range i went on in Lydd 2 years ago was full of 9mm brass. Dunno where it was made though.

SST rofl rofl rofl

I don't get it, what's so funny?

[Royal]

THEY were turning live rounds into empty cases (and enjoying the shingle ;) )

[Sabre]

Roger Rabbit wrote:
A range i went on in Lydd 2 years ago was full of 9mm brass. Dunno where it was made though.

Hmm, I was down there two years ago as well. ;)

Was mainly on Hythe ranges though. Was on the 'NI' trainer range (amongst others) where there was a preponderance of '.22 conversion kit' cases. They have the most annoying property of being just the right size to get stuck in the tread of your boots. The usual cursory check for spare cases you know you haven't got then turns into a group chiropody session! :lol:

PS: One of my mates double-tapped the preist on the range, he swore he thought the crucifix was a pistol. :|

[Roger Rabbit]

I think it was Lydd. It was a range that looked out to sea, over a shingle beach, the surrounding area was quite marshy and very flat. The targets on the range came up in 4s and were behind little berms, logs or in the window of a mock house, about the size of a shed though :) . You had to shoot from different positions, like behind a log, gate, house roof, house window, that sort of thing. Great fun. It was July or early August time.

Question about the Hythe range. Thats the one with all the miniture houses/sheds on it right? Theres a public road which runs alongside of it and a large fortified complex. 1)what is that fortified part? 2) In which direction does the shooting take place, it justs seems maybe a tad dangerous to be shooting parallel to a road about 100 metres away. Maybe i'm just too nervous.

[Sabre]

Yeah, you were probably on Lydd. That's the area with more extensive FIBUA ranges and environments.


The targets on the range came up in 4s and were behind little berms, logs or in the window of a mock house, about the size of a shed though. You had to shoot from different positions, like behind a log, gate, house roof, house window, that sort of thing.

The IBSR (Individual Battle Simulation Range) then.


It was July or early August time.

I was there in early July. ;)


Question about the Hythe range. Thats the one with all the miniture houses/sheds on it right?

Yeah, it's like a strip of land between the road and the channel.


Theres a public road which runs alongside of it and a large fortified complex. 1)what is that fortified part?

If it was about halfway along the range, then it was probably the 'NI' simulator complex.


2) In which direction does the shooting take place, it justs seems maybe a tad dangerous to be shooting parallel to a road about 100 metres away. Maybe i'm just too nervous.

It's all out to sea. If you look at a map of the area, the 'danger area' marked on the map goes out into the channel.

[Roger Rabbit]

So what goes on inside the NI Simulator?

[Sabre]

It's funny as. It's not really called the 'NI' (Northern Ireland) simulator as such, it's got a different name, but it is essentially for training for NI and similar situations.

The firing point is up on the first floor and you have three 'streets' leading away from you, going left centre and right. Basically, you can see most of the streets but not everything. The whole detail together can see everywhere, so you have to communicate effectively in order for the commander to know exactly what's going on.

What happens is a bunch of 'dummies' move around on overhead rails, in and out of buildings etc, and occasionally a terrorist will run out and fire. You engage the terrorists and the system records the hits. At the end you get a breakdown of who you hit and review the video of it. Was quite amusing, at the end of our detail's firing, the loudspeaker played 'Land of Hope and Glory' and Churchill saying "If the British empire were to last for a thousand years, this would be their finest hour"

A good bit of fun.

[Roger Rabbit]

Sounds excellent. Hopefully one day i'll be able to have ago myself. Thanks forl your answers to my questions, much appreciated.

[Sabre]

No worries. ;)

[Steve Andrews]

Ahhhh yes...(pulling up a sandbag)
Fond memories... getting beasted all over the miles of pebbles of Hythe and Lydd as a sixteen/seventeen year old junior leader.

Hot tea scooped from a Norwegian.
****ty packed lunches.....but wait...here comes the burger van!!!

Watching with green eyes of envy as the sneaky-beakies bombed around in cars with no windows, doing contact drills.


Then returning to do NI training..The coat-hanger range..zapping the priest with .22 tracer...what fun!

The trippy sangar shoot in the old fort, to the tune of
"armoured cars and tanks and guns
came to take away ours sons
now every man will stand behind
the man behind the wire..."

And shooting holes in breeze-block walls with an AKM.

Kind of makes me wish I'd never got out.

Nearly.

[Sabre]

Steve Andrews wrote:
****ty packed lunches.....but wait...here comes the burger van!!!

Not half ****ty! We were given horror bags with an apple, blue riband (of course) and two EMPTY (!!!) buns with a little packet of jam for one and a tiny block of cheese for the other. Worse than f***ing rationing in the war!

I remember the CSM, "This is f***ing outrageous! One man's not been given a packed lunch...and it wasn't me!" :lol:

No wonder I went down on exercise, ended up sending it out both ends non-stop! :oops:

Burger van was a godsend. It was probably run by the same company as the civvy contract caterers. Pocket the money from the government and provide the ****est meals possible, then take your money off you on the ranges when you're starving! B**ches! ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

hey I used to get "range stew "there
once got unhelpful directions to join the shooting team can't miss us there be a four tonner and landrover parked up javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
Laughing.

[oldsoak]

Ahh... range stew...pulverised meat of uncertain provenance together with dollops of instant mash and a mug of watery tea with 5 tablespoons of sugar - all downed inside of 20 minutes before the next detail. Once had a Gurkha curry and rice out on ranges. Beautiful. Instant morale in a messtin.

[W(M)D]

Whilst down at Hythe & Lydd it is always opprtune to visit Jolsons bar in Folkestone of an evening to look at the local mingers (definitely something wrong with the water down there)!! LOL

[Werewolf01]

Ahh... range stew...pulverised meat of uncertain provenance together with dollops of instant mash and a mug of watery tea with 5 tablespoons of sugar - all downed inside of 20 minutes before the next detail. Once had a Gurkha curry and rice out on ranges. Beautiful. Instant morale in a messtin.

I have always heard that Gurkhas are tough; after you subdue them, then butcher them, how do you tenderize them? Curry only goes so far....

[martinexsquaddie]

javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
Laughing
I loved range stew.
what pissed me off spending a day on the range in thick fog Apwt nobody fired could 'nt see the 100 metre point javascript:emoticon(':D')
Very Happy

[Sabre]

Whilst down at Hythe & Lydd it is always opprtune to visit Jolsons bar in Folkestone of an evening to look at the local mingers (definitely something wrong with the water down there)!! LOL

Too right! Went to a local pub within walking distance of Folkstone camp, there was a rock night on with a live band. Music was ok, beer was fine...crowd wasn't! :(

Fared better than some mates who decided to go to the town proper though. They ended up stuck in a gay bar. :lol: