French Defence Minister: Troops Fired On Civilians

[BlackRain]

So it turns out the "propoganda videos" were telling the truth. Napoleon's advice on how to break up an unruly crowd: "Give them a whiff of grapeshot."
(http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/451/)

French troops fired on Ivorian crowds, Paris says
29 Nov 2004 12:41:19 GMT

Source: ******* (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29703422.htm)

PARIS, Nov 29 (*******) - French soldiers opened fire on crowds of angry youths during days of mob violence and looting in Ivory Coast earlier this month, French Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said.

French forces had previously said they fired warning shots during the unrest, but Alliot-Marie told France's RTL television on Sunday night the troops had most probably "made full use of their weapons" in some cases.

The mob violence erupted after government forces killed nine French soldiers and an American aid worker in a bombing raid on the rebel-held north, prompting the former colonial power to destroy most of Ivory Coast's small air force in retaliation.

The Ivorian government has repeatedly accused French forces of firing on crowds of unarmed demonstrators, particularly at the Hotel Ivoire in the main city, Abidjan. Paris has insisted the protesters were often armed with guns and machetes.

Alliot-Marie said the French troops sometimes had no choice but to open fire, particularly when they were returning from other parts of the country to protect French and other foreign nationals from attack in Abidjan.

"When they tried to stop our armoured vehicles from getting to Abidjan, to stop them from protecting our citizens and other foreigners who were victims of the violence, they had to fire," she said.

"Naturally, they fired warning shots and in some cases, most probably, they had to make full use of their firearms. That is the reality. There was nothing else that could be done."

Around 8,000 expatriates fled the world's top cocoa grower as militant supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo went on a looting rampage for several days. The government says 57 people were killed and more than 2,200 injured in the unrest.

Alliot-Marie said the troops had also fired to disperse crowds blocking two bridges linking residential and commercial parts of Abidjan to the airport.

She said the crowds were being forced to block the bridges by other protesters carrying arms.

"(The French troops) had to stop this crowd coming into contact (with the expatriates) otherwise there was a risk of a real massacre," she said.

The defence minister said the troops had remained calm throughout their mission.

"Faced with a crowd which was, after all -- this has not been said enough -- well-armed with Kalashnikovs (automatic rifles) and pistols and not just machetes, they showed composure and restraint," she said.

[sp2c]

no they opened fire on militants (weapons) and some civilians may have died because of this.

happens

[Turhapuro]

Who cares? **** happens.

[Uncle Chô]

I heard this morning the audiotaped soundtrack of the Gazelles shooting at the "people" and vehicles trying to cross that bridge at night. You can clearly hear the flying bullets and long bursts of 20 mm gun also...

Really impressive to say the least.

Tonight (European time) the footage of the fights around the bridge shot by an independant TV team will be broadcasted on a private French TV channel (Canal +).

http://www.canalplus.fr/index.php?pid=61 (in French only)

What is said to be not pretty pictures :|

Who's right or not, that is still the question and probably not answered as the situation turned really bad that night as Abidjan was in a state of insurrection.

[Javehn]

Well , France defence minister admitted that they were firing on unarmed crowd . Perhaps one step forward . But he also said it was justified .

One interesting point - he said that during Abidjan hottel uprisal , there were people armed with machetas and Kalashnikovs between the crowd .

In the tape of the hottel incident , you see next : There is a barb wire before the soldiers , and the soldiers with armored vehicles stand on a pretty safe distance behind this barb wire . That excludes serious danger of Machete . Arguably one can say that there is a danger on Machete throwing on soldier , but after viewing the video , IMO the soldiers stand on a safe distance behind the barb wire . That also exclude danger of storming by excited crowd .

Second point - during the movie you can hear machine gun starts . After it (on the same shot , unedited) you can see French soldiers standing non shellant next to their APC's . Some of them are sitting on top of them . Some of them are talking and even joking . Not exactly something soldiers would act if they got fired before . You can the same moment in the same frame where you can see someone shot in the head .
You can see fragmentation results - person with a head smashed . It looks like a result of firing fragmentation round - the only source for fragmentation rounds in that place are French APC's . Now why to use frag rounds in this situation ?

[Uncle Chô]

Well , France defence minister admitted that they were firing on unarmed crowd . Perhaps one step forward . But she also said it was justified .

One interesting point - she said that during Abidjan hottel uprisal , there were people armed with machetas and Kalashnikovs between the crowd

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/photos/20040115.OBS4395.jpg

;)

Already discussed here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30733)



Come on... Suddenly nobody speaks French?

Please translate this news coverage before the link dies!

2 parts:

1- an anonymous eye witness who identified himself as non French or Ivorian was staying as a guest in the hotel and saw the shooting from the 20th floor (!) From his accent I would say he is from Belgium (not sure). He said the French troops standing guard around the hotel were from the RICM, the very same armored Marine unit that was bombed in Bouake. The crowd was estimated +/- 10 000 to 14 000 people, mostly young people and some women. He acknowledges the mob was very agressive toward the soldiers, pushing and trying to remove the concertina wires all day long. The siege lasted more than 8 hours until some shooting started by 18h00. Was that a burst from a Famas or an AK-47, I am not expert enough. He said the head from a lady was ripped off. Then he tells the story of French "snipers" storming some rooms on the 6th floor early in the morning, when they later found some empty cases as well as a forgotten civil ID (said to belong to a military)

2- the French Colonel is an official Army spokeman. He denied the fact the French openened fire from cold blood. One interesting point is the soldiers standing guard were on duty for more than 12 hours in the tropical heat. They had to face the very angry mob and among the unarmed people some guys started shooting at the French. The French first released some warning bursts above the crowd who panicked, the situation worsened and yes (hard for him to acknowledge) they fire a few rounds at the shooters.

This is a rough and fair translation, make your point with that.

My opinion:

- how someone could see that many details from a 20 story building?

- tension was at his highest from both side

- placing marksmen to observe an angry crowd in a war situation is common military tactic. They scout the armed bad guys and could take them out if they represent a threat. It happens in Kosovo and Iraq. They are profesional trained military not gangsters. Why would they shot at unarmed and non threatening people? The French Army has a long experience at dealing with civilians riots, from Beyrouth to Sarajevo throughout Ivory Coast. Even the legendary Foreign Legion was trained to deal with law enforcement situations in Kosovo.

- some French on the ground may have cracked under pressure and opened fire. True.

And stop all the BS with the friendly, "peacefull" innocente crowd. We are talking about total hate. 12 000 heated people -mostly young, poor and uneducated- that are manipulated by a few hundreds paramilitary "Patriots" and ready to lost control anytime. See the pictures of the rampages in Abidjan and elsewhere in the country by yourself and think twice before making statement safely hidden in your Western bedroom.

What had happened is bad for both sides.

[sp2c]

nothing gets past you does it?

[Javehn]

Shemale ?

[Geezah]

As always the French are right, and the rest of the World(or just America) is wrong :cantbeli:

[sp2c]

that's your words dude

[BlackRain]

Students send letters to Ivory Coast
11/30/2004 9:20 AM
By: News 14 Carolina

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Some students hoping to spread holiday cheer to troops serving overseas had to change their plans.

The French Club at Providence High School wanted to write letters to American soldiers. But instead, the letters are now going to French soldiers in Ivory Coast of Africa.

The Defense Department, for various security reasons or what have you, are not letting us send them to soldiers in random units," said Providence High School Senior Nick Lipka.

"We have to send them to specific soldiers in specific units to send them to."

For more information on ways to support U.S. troops, visit americasupportsyou.mil/.

[BlackRain]

Update to Story:



France says killed about 20 in Ivory Coast unrest
30 Nov 2004 21:52:21 GMT

Source: *******

(Updates with new material throughout, previous PARIS)

By Peter Murphy

ABIDJAN, Nov 30 (*******) - French troops killed about 20 people in Ivory Coast during unrest earlier this month, the Defence Ministry in Paris said on Tuesday, as controversy grew over the French military's handling of the crisis.

Human rights groups called on the French parliament to investigate whether French forces overreacted to mob violence which erupted after France destroyed the West African country's air force in response to a deadly strike on its peacekeepers.

"Shooting like this on civilian populations without firearms goes far beyond the needs of maintaining order and the mandate which has been given to the French armed forces," the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) said.

France has strongly defended the troops in its former colony, insisting they acted with restraint and only to protect French and other foreign nationals from attacks by militant supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo.

The latest crisis in the world's top cocoa grower began when government forces broke an 18-month ceasefire to bomb the rebel-held north and killed nine French soldiers in one raid.

The French military had at first declined to state how many people it had killed during the subsequent unrest and maintained it had not fired on protesters. However a Defence Ministry spokesman on Tuesday said an estimated 20 Ivorians were killed.

He said the victims, both citizens and soldiers, were killed near the airport of the main city Abidjan on Nov. 6, during the movement of French troops from the north to Abidjan in the following two days and at the city's Hotel Ivoire on Nov. 9.

HOTEL CLASH UNDER SCRUTINY

The incident has come under particular scrutiny and a senior Ivorian gendarme who was on the scene said French forces fired on protesters venting anger at the troops for occupying the hotel close to Gbagbo's residence.

"There were no warning shots. There wasn't even a verbal warning and anyway they didn't even have the equipment to give a verbal warning, they didn't have a megaphone," Colonel Georges Guiai Bi Poin told ******* in an interview on Tuesday.

The French Defence Ministry's first official version of events made no mention of French troops opening fire but said Ivorian forces had fired to help the French leave the hotel.

But Guiai Bi Poin, in command of all the gendarmes at the hotel, said none of his men opened fire. The French killed one gendarme and another man and others may also have died, he said.

Television footage after the shooting showed the headless corpse of a protester and several other bodies looking lifeless.

The colonel said the protesters were unarmed but France has insisted there were armed men in many crowds it faced during the unrest, including at the hotel, and that its troops fired only in self-defence -- and after firing warning shots.

"There were clearly provocations that aimed to make the French troops lose their composure. They did not," Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie told France 2 television.

In its statement, made jointly with France's Human Rights League, the FIDH charged the death toll was far higher than France said, citing its sources as saying about 60 Ivorians had died in Abidjan.

Almost 5,000 French soldiers are in Ivory Coast, tasked with supporting a U.N. peacekeeping force. (Additional reporting by Tom Heneghan in Paris)