Russia angry at US-India arms talks

[J-10]

Russia angry at US-India arms talks
By Our Correspondent

NEW DELHI, Nov 30: Russia tersely told India on Tuesday that it would no longer transfer any high technology defence system to New Delhi without a pact to protect intellectual property rights (IPR) , and said India's bid to buy American Patriot anti-missile system would not work on Russian-supplied platforms.

Press Trust of India quoted Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov as saying in Moscow that it was not going to move further in sharing sophisticated military technologies with India without the IPR pact.

"In our military-technical cooperation we have come to a stage when, without signing of the agreement on the protection of Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), we cannot look ahead," Mr Ivanov said here ahead of his trip to New Delhi to prepare the ground work for President Vladimir Putin's three-day visit beginning this week.

During his stay in New Delhi, Mr Ivanov will co-chair the fourth session of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military cooperation along with his Indian counterpart Pranab Mukherjee to finalize defence agenda for talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Putin on Dec 3.

On reports about India's plans to assess the US Patriot ABM system, he said Russia has already demonstrated its S-300 system to Indian experts at several occasions. He expressed doubt whether Patriot missiles could be amalgamated into the integrated air defence system modelled by Russia for India, PTI said.

"To do this we have to get access to the source codes of Patriot missiles, which the US will not give. We also will not give our source codes if India goes ahead with the American system of control," Mr Ivanov said.

He indicated that the absence of IPR protection agreement has become an 'obstacle' in the development of defence cooperation involving the cutting-edge technologies. "It has become something of an obstacle if we think of future, we can fulfil our previous obligations without this, but we cannot move ahead in high technology cooperation," Mr Ivanov said.

He noted that Russia had submitted the draft of the agreement to India two years ago, but the Indian side had not even given its suggestions or proposals on it. "We will not give away such high technology without signing IPR agreement, for free.

India is a priority and strategic partner of Russia. It was also a strategic partner of Soviet Union, which used to give many things for free, but things have changed. Russia is a different country and there is a need for taking cognizance of this reality," Mr Ivanov said.

He also expressed Russia's displeasure over the way New Delhi is treating its strategic partner on the issue of WTO accession and recognition of Russia as a market economy, a step already taken by the European Union, China and the US.

Mr Ivanov said Indo-Russian defence cooperation was moving ahead in accordance with the long-term military technical programme till year 2010. However, like BrahMos cruise missile project, which was not part of this programme, some new projects are in the pipeline for 2005 and in the coming years.

"I cannot share with you at this juncture, what are these projects. At proper time you will come to know," Mr Ivanov said when asked about these projects. Space could become a major, thrust area of military cooperation, PTI said.

"I would rather say the civilian and military cooperation involving space would become a thrust area of bilateral interaction," Mr Ivanov told correspondents from India in Moscow. He said Moscow was not afraid of competition in the Indian arms bazaar from the growing number of new players, including the United States.
http://www.dawn.com/2004/12/01/top10.htm

[EvanL]

Russia can go lick some balls.
If anything we dont need Russia supplying arms to other countries. they did enough of that during the Soviet era, and look where those weapons went!

[SerbPVO]

Wasn't Taliban and Saddam, even Al-Qaida and Bin Laden mostly American funded and equipped? :roll:

[Kilgor]

russia has been reverse engineering american stuff for decades.

The bomb, Sidewinder, B29, DC3, the list could go on. Since when did they start to care about IP ??

[Kilgor]

Wasn't Taliban and Saddam, even Al-Qaida and Bin Laden mostly American funded and equipped? :roll:

saddam was mostly russian, german and french

[ZaakM433]

Wasn't Taliban and Saddam, even Al-Qaida and Bin Laden mostly American funded and equipped? :roll:

saddam was mostly russian, german and french

no we funded him right before he went crazy, and then they funded him after he went crazy and we stopped...

[Kilgor]

america never "equipped though"
except for civilian use helicopters

[VorpalDoom]

60+% of the weapons in the middle east are russian made... less then 1% are american made.... you tell me.

[Jedburgh]

India-US Relations (http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/37996.pdf)

[Nizark]

So we sell the indians some PAC-3's...won't the pakistanis be pissed and want them too?

[AFACadet]

Russia's just pissed becuse they get a large protion of their defense exports from India. If India shops US, that money comes here instead of there.

[Michael RVR]

russia has been reverse engineering american stuff for decades.

The bomb, Sidewinder, B29, DC3, the list could go on. Since when did they start to care about IP ??

Since they started making equipment worth worrying about? S-300's are a fantastic bit of kit ;)

You cannot argue that america didn't start the ball rolling with al-quaeda, saddam and the like, its proven fact.

:bash: :lol:

[Midav]

russia has been reverse engineering american stuff for decades.

The bomb, Sidewinder, B29, DC3, the list could go on. Since when did they start to care about IP ??

Since they started making equipment worth worrying about? S-300's are a fantastic bit of kit ;)

You cannot argue that america didn't start the ball rolling with al-quaeda, saddam and the like, its proven fact.

:bash: :lol:

That's arguable.

Had the USSR not invaded Afghanistan, would things have turned out the same?

As for Saddam, a lot of nations were responsible for that. Not just the US or the US alone.

[perdurabo]

russia has been reverse engineering american stuff for decades.

The bomb, Sidewinder, B29, DC3, the list could go on. Since when did they start to care about IP ??
Li2 was legal license of DC3 (and with minor changes cause DC3 was in inches and Li2 was in metric scale)
Japanese also had DC3 license ...

[ocean]

To this day India rocket still uses Russia's fully built cryogenic engine as the 3rd stage. If Russia adheres to the so called IPR then the whole India satellite launching capability will be a goner. Let alone the moon mission talks.

[Abbyy]

russia has been reverse engineering american stuff for decades.

The bomb, Sidewinder, B29, DC3, the list could go on. Since when did they start to care about IP ??
Li2 was legal license of DC3 (and with minor changes cause DC3 was in inches and Li2 was in metric scale)
Japanese also had DC3 license ...

And Bomb and B-29 were reverse engineered not because Russians weren't able to produce own. But because lack of time before possible US nuclear aggression.

As for sidewinder - idea was sooo obvious. There'weren't anything to stole.

And actually I do not understand why Ivanov's message about IPR agreement caused discussion. US accompany every foreign arms sale with such kind of agreements.

[sheroo]

To this day India rocket still uses Russia's fully built cryogenic engine as the 3rd stage. If Russia adheres to the so called IPR then the whole India satellite launching capability will be a goner. Let alone the moon mission talks.

And your information source is.....................................

[sheroo]

Russia is going the same way as the French. Whoever has the money gets the arms. supply it to direct rivals in the same region and u get rich.

One of the reason India has turned to Israel and trying to get its own armamament Industry going. The Indians don't trust the US a lot when it comes to supply, be it intelligence or arms.

[Pooga]

Oh boohoo.

[rajkhalsa]

This article is a good explanation on the 'whys' of Russian concerns in the Indo-Russian strategic relationship

Defence cooperation: looking beyond the traditional framework (http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=75815)

New dynamism in the politics of the sub-continent is throwing up fresh challenges



FE INSIGHT



Defence cooperation: looking beyond the traditional framework

New dynamism in the politics of the sub-continent is throwing up fresh challenges

C RAJA MOHAN
Posted online: Friday, December 03, 2004 at 0000 hours IST


AS Russian President Vladimir Putin arrives here for annual summitry with the Indian leadership, expanding strategic cooperation, particularly in the defence sector, will be high on the agenda.

Putin, who resurrected Indo-Russian defence cooperation from the chaos of post-Soviet Russia a few years ago and gave it a new dynamism, will now have to ward off the growing competition in the Indian defence market.

More important, Putin and his Indian interlocutors will have to find ways to adapt the long-standing Indo-Russian defence cooperation to the changed political circumstances in the region, as well as the imperatives of globalisation in the world’s defence industry.

Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov’s consultations in the capital in the past few days have demonstrated some of the new challenges and opportunities facing Moscow in the changing Indian defence market.

India’s growing defence ties with the United States have widely been seen as threatening Russia’s near-monopoly. Russian officials assert they do not fear competition in India.

Few countries so far have been able to match the range and quality of Russian equipment on offer to India. For example, no one else in the arms bazaar offers such high value items like nuclear submarines for lease.

Beyond such sensitive transactions, Russia had always scored over other suppliers in terms of price, reliability and technology transfer. Even after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian defence industry has remained the preferred source of defence technology for India. Yet, in some of the emerging areas of high technology defence equipment, Russia has had to yield some ground to others.

Meanwhile, the ongoing diversification of India’s defence supplies is a reality. France, the UK and Israel have been other important sources for Indian military purchases over the past decade.

More important, the US is now determined to capture a slice of India’s defence market. Going beyond the recent focus on joint exercises, the Pentagon and the US defence industry are looking for a long-term arms relationship with India.

The US is offering, for the first time, major platforms like the P-3 Orion maritime reconnaissance aircraft and the C-130 heavy transportation air craft.

While the Americans will face huge difficulties in cracking the Indian market, they might be more than competitive on both, P-3 and C-130.

The US is also offering to discuss the Patriot missile system, that could significantly upgrade India’s air and missile defence capabilities. While Russians have comparable missiles — S-300 and S-400 — for sale, the American offer on Patriot could be politically attractive for India as the thin end of the wedge for a potential long-term partnership in the emerging area of missile defence.

As India plays footsie with the Pentagon, Moscow wants new arrangements with Delhi on the maintenance of technological secrecy and conditions for transfers to third parties.

While these elements have been traditionally part of all defence contracts with Russia, Moscow now wants a more generic agreement on the lines of the one India has signed with the US.

After some initial hiccups, Indian and Russian officials are now apparently sorting out the problem.

A more important political question has begun to arise over the special relationship on defence between Delhi and Moscow. If Delhi is contemplating a diversification of its arms purchases, would Moscow remain permanently tied to India?

Throughout the last decade, political pressures from India have held Russia back from developing an arms transfer relationship with Pakistan. There are reasons for both to hang on to their defence partnership — Pakistan does not offer a market the size of India, and Delhi will not find it easy to replace Russia as the first option on many defence items. That the two sides, however, are contemplating alternatives, points to the new dynamism in the politics of the defence market in the subcontinent.

But the real challenge for India and Russia is to explore ways to benefit from the unfolding globalisation of defence industry. With its wide-ranging defence industrial capabilities and skilled manpower, India is destined to become a hub of outsourcing for defence research and development as well as production of key components.

As a major producer of defence equipment in the world, Russia needs to develop synergy with the Indian defence establishment— through joint research & development, production and marketing in third countries.

Equally important, as large defence corporations from the US and Europe tie up with the Russian defence industry, Delhi and Moscow will have to eventually look at multilateral ventures for the production of new equipment, particularly in aerospace.

What Russia and India need now is a long-term vision for mutually beneficial defence cooperation that looks beyond the traditional framework of arms sales.

The writer is professor of South Asian Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi

[rajkhalsa]

The Russkis were giddy over the success of the joint Indo-Russian Brahmos missile program, and other such cooperative ventures. The reason Russia is pressing for India reassure against tech transfer that, as co-development and production is booming and becoming more and more strategic in nature, these new projects will be as critical to the Russian strategic and military concerns as they are the Indian...

Russia and India Embark on New Forms of Co-operation in the Nilitary and Technological Area (http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=5153501&startrow=1&date=2004-11-30&do_alert=0)


NEW DELHI, November 30 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India embark on new forms of co-operation in the military and technological area, said Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov.

"We have recently been taking up new forms of co-operation that are not restricted to the trite sell-and-buy formula, but involve joint hi-tech productions, including the production of hi-tech equipment for sales in the third countries," said Ivanov. He arrived in the Indian capital on Tuesday to attend a session of the joint Russian-Indian working group for military, and military and technological co-operation, due on December 1-2.

"The Russian-Indian co-operation has long been based on strategic partnership, the military, and military and technological co-operation are the cornerstone of such partnership," the minister said.

"I think my Indian colleague Pranab Mukherjee and I will have a great opportunity to discuss all issues of military, and military and technological co-operation, interaction in security, including the situation in different flashpoints, above all, in Eurasia, including Afghanistan, Iraq and the Middle East," the minister said.

Russia has so far concluded long-term military and technological contracts with India to the sum of $5 billion, Ivanov said.

The minister explained that these had been laid down in contracts and would be implemented in the next 5-7 years.

Ivanov also said that, presently, India accounted for about 35% of Russia's total military and technological co-operation.

"In all, the India-Russia trade accounted for $33 billion since 1960," he noted.

[...]


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[...]

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