Anti-Goverment Special Forces?

[kris]

Hey,
Not exactly sure where they got the info from, but a friend of mine claims that there is an underground anti-goverment group within the Special Forces and Delta, just curious if anyone else has heard anything about this?
Kris

[hood]

The CIA would handle such things. You're not going to have a separate unit of a few people who will take down a whole government by themselves...

[grendel]

"Anti-government" might mean that they are opposed to a government's policies - it may not necessarily mean that they would use force against the government (e.g. a coup/mutiny).

anti-government = anti-war?

[Chops]

I think you might be referring to The Resister, an underground SF paper authored by a serving SF guy a few years ago. Very anti UN, anti BATF etc. Have a look around the web and you should be able to find a few excerpts.

rgds

Chops

[front]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/commandos/20000918-0010_mz1n18racist.html

Search for "the resister special forces" (WITHOUT the quotations) on http://www.google.com/

There was a RAND Institute report about racism within the US Special Forces which came out a while ago. I guess it would be online but I don't have a link to it.

cheers

front

[96B]

I dont know any but it would seem to me that most guys in SF and especially Delta are very patriotic so its kind of hard to believe they would be anti US government, maybe anti foreign government, or possibly disagree with some of our governments decisions. That doesnt mean they dont love this country though.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Just look at SF guys like Bo Gritz and Randy Weaver and their disdain for the federal government.

[kris]

Thanks for the help guys, I did a search on The Resister and below are just a few links, if anyones interested. I just remembered where he said he had read about this, "Civil War 2", I was just curious to exactly what their fundamentals were.

http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/resister.htm
http://www.cclp.org/division.htm
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V115/N62/haiti.62w.html

[TacoDelRio]

Keep in mind, the goverment does not "rule" onder one name, it is divided up so that it doesnt seem too large and overpowering, so that buerocrats can get their ways with civies. Lets look into it, as opposed to straight at it, in a big picture. Don't miss the details. They are what count. Hopefully you understand what I mean.
:cantbeli:
Hooah. p-)

[kris]

I understand exactly what your saying.... :)

[TacoDelRio]

Goood....

Some people also call militias "anti-govenrment groups" or "cells". I guess I don't understand that, I mean if it were'nt for militias, then where would we be right now? Sure as hell would'nt be free of the British...

Hooah? p-)

[kris]

I completely agree with you, I think history speaks for itself.

[grendel]

Kris, this might be of interest to you… (A little break from the ongoing war posts woot )

Grendel’s disclaimer:
I would like to make it clear that I fully support the men and women sent by their respective governments to do their Duty; my prayers are with their safe return; their family’s health and wellbeing, and to the safety of Iraqi civilians and non-combatants in the region.
I do not intend to change people’s opinions or beliefs, nor do I mean to offend.
I am aware that this is a mature forum, and we listen to each other’s opinions.
Please don’t shoot the messenger. :hug:

Below is a letter published in the Sydney Morning Herald a few days ago:


A letter from the SAS?
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/07/1046826524409.html

By Margo Kingston
March 7 2003

I received this email today from 'Brian Dabeagle', who says he's an Australian SAS officer. I have no idea if it's genuine - perhaps readers with knowledge of the SAS can give me their judgement. Brian sent this email to Bob Brown and me:

I am a currently serving soldier in Australia's Special Air Service Regiment (SAS) and believe me it has taken weeks, if not months of agonised soul searching as I have tried to decide whether to make my views public or not.

As you can understand, if my identity is revealed, my career (in a job that I love) is finished and as such I have taken some steps to protect my identity. However, some of the information that is in this email is not on the public record (but not vital to operational security) and can be checked to confirm my bona fides. I write this because I am sick of John Howard and the Federal Government's lies about our position re Iraq and our role within the coalition.

By the time that you read this, it is quite possibly too late to influence the outcome of events regarding our involvement, but at the very least maybe one of you guys may have the courage to make the public a little more aware of what really is happening regarding our (the SAS) role in this conflict.

John Howard stated that we had only recently started preparing for this looming conflict. Bull****! We, that is, 1 SAS Squadron (please refer to it as One SAS Squadron, not 1st SAS or anything else) were given orders to prepare for a war with Iraq around July 2002.

The Australian Special Air Service Regiment was specifically asked for by US planners after they had observed our performance in Afghanistan, where we demonstrated a capability that had been neglected by other Special Forces units who until recently had deemed it obsolete. Our skills in what is termed Strategic Reconaissance (SR) are unsurpassed by any other Special Forces unit in the world. This includes other so called Tier 1 (a system of rating free world Special Forces units devised by the yanks - Tier 1 being the highest rating) units, including the Brit SAS, US Delta and US Dev Group units.

What happened was we were initially deployed into areas deemed 'clean' by the coalition as we were viewed by the US command as really just a token gesture made by the Australian Government (as was our deployment to Kuwait in 98). We were also viewed as an 'unknown' quantity as our last real operational deployment working with the yanks was Vietnam. But, because we had maintained the skills of remaining 'behind the lines' for much longer periods without resupply or external support, we started to find things that had remained un-noticed by the coalition. Taliban & al Qaida forces started to reappear in the areas we operated in, thinking the area was secure. And, we started to find things that had been missed by the coalition as they passed through. Our discoveries led to some of the coalition's biggest successes and suddenly the US planners started to realise that we were providing a service that they no longer had the capability to provide AS EFFECTIVELY.

Consequently and as a result of our operations in Afghanistan the relationship between the Australian SAS and our US counterparts is closer than at any time in our history. It is because of our ability to provide a service to the US effort that CANNOT be as effectively carried out by US forces that we were specifically asked for by the Pentagon right at the start of planning. Our role in this conflict is crucial to the outcome and there is no way that we can be taken out of the conflict without seriously affecting the US operational capability. Our planning was at such an advanced stage that whilst the parliamentary debate was raging, we were already into advanced planning of specific targets (not just general planning, but actual targets and operations) ... quite contrary to what John Howard was stating. Without going into too much detail (for obvious reasons) what we will be doing is absolutely vital to the successful prosecution of the war. There is no way we are going to be withdrawn. This is nothing like Kuwait in 98, back then we were "untested" in the eyes of the yanks, now we are crucial to their plans.

So why am I sending you this? Because I am proud to be a professional soldier (not a nazi as I felt on the Tampa) and relish the job that I do, but I am concerned that as a human being that the war we are about to embark on is wrong. As important is the fact that I think that Howard is pandering to the will of that redneck Bush, without considering the long term consequences of this action, not just for Australia but for the whole world. He is lying to Parliament, he is lying to the people of Australia and no doubt he will lie to the dependents of any of us who don't come back. This Government has a history of the latter as Kylie Russell, Jerry Bampton and the next of kin of the Blackhawk disaster can attest to.

As I mentioned at the start of the email, I think that maybe it is too late to do anything to affect our deployment, but at least if the truth as to our build up and deployment is made public, maybe it will give the parliament and the people of Australia food for thought.



FYI:

“Tampa” – (MV Tampa) a Norwegian freighter intercepted by the SASR on orders by the Australian government in August 2001 – a very controversial decision by our government ;).
http://old.smh.com.au/news/specials/natl/tampa/

Bob Brown – the leader of the “Australian Green Party” (one of the minor opposition parties – mostly environmentalists – which isn’t bad but why is Mr Brown the leader of the Greens? :cantbeli: )

Kylie Russell – Sgt Andrew Russell’s widow. Sgt Russell’s LRPV ran over an anti-tank mine in Afghanistan.

Jerry Bampton – SASR Cpl seriously injured (was left a paraplegic) as a result of the Blackhawk accident.

Blackhawk Disaster – the ADF’s worst peacetime disaster that claimed the life of 15 of its finest. 3 members of the 5th Aviation Regiment were also killed. http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Australia/SASR/BH_Report.htm

Grendel’s opinion:
I believe that the writer is genuine (an officer of 1 Sqn, the first SASsie squadron deployed in Afghanistan) – his statement: “we were initially deployed into areas deemed 'clean' by the coalition as we were viewed by the US command as really just a token gesture made by the Australian Government” was never in the news however it does make sense to initially give them safe areas since back then, US planners did not really know their capability (“our last real operational deployment working with the yanks was Vietnam”).

I actually agree with “Brian Dabeagle”; the “long term consequences of this action” is indeed disturbing. Ever since the “back to Baghdad” issue started I’ve been wondering:
What if deposing Saddam will be interpreted by radical Islamists as waging war on their religion. What if this action encourages young men in the region to join terrorist organizations like al Queda?

[96B]

Im sorry but the statements implying the US SOF (Delta, DEVGRU) are not up to par with somebody else or lacks capabilities others have is totally rediculous. I dont belong to any military unit currently, and I dont know anybody in SOF but I am simply saying that there is no way that any other country has capabilities the U.S. doesnt. In all honesty, I think that if there were anybody else that could kick more ass than our guys, it would be the Israelis. I have yet to hear people talking **** about their guys, particularly SAS fans.

The SAS (both Brits and Aussies) are excellent operators and they talk all about being the best, but does anybody know a Delta or DEVGRU operator? Does anybody know the specifics of all their missions and successes and failures? Sure everybody will have failures or mistakes, but people are just simply playing favorites. People say that just because the SAS is the oldest that they must be the best, sure they may have more operational experience, but like I said before nobody knows the statistics of every single Delta mission, so how could you possibly judge who is the best? The author of Inside Delta Force was one of 12 men who made it out of 163 to be an operator. Keep in mind as well folks that those 163 guys were top performers who were hand picked and invited to try out.The only possible people who could even attempt at guessing who the best is would be the operators themselves, and they dont waste time with that. Delta and SAS are probably personal friends of each other and share a bond nobody else could understand. No matter what though, there will always be pissing contests amongst wanna-bes and some military personell, but mainly the non-hackers.

There may have been many other countries that have provided valued help in our (U.S.) operations around the world including Afghanistan and in the upcoming battles in Iraq. Everyone usually has pride in their country, their military service, and in their unit particularly with SOF folks, and it is apparent here. I am sorry that this person obviously has some resentment toward Bush and the US policies, but people are free to speak their opinions.

[Nasty Bastard]

Im sorry but the statements implying the US SOF (Delta, DEVGRU) are not up to par with somebody else or lacks capabilities others have is totally rediculous.

And I'm sorry but I believe that that statement is arrogant. Strategic reconnaissance isn't really a very glamourous mission, and it hasn't often been required since 1991.

SR is THE reason the SASR still exists. From Vietnam 'til the late '90s, this was the main role of the SASR. Hell, 4RAR was supposed to become the primary CT unit originally as far as I understand the origins of that unit.

Regional surveillance is one of the primary and most practiced missions of Australias SOF. Theres an awful lot of rugged country. It is not unplausible to believe that the SASR might well have an advantage in SR over other units. Thats fine. I don't think SASR is as capable of CT as CAG or DEVGRU. Hell, the vast majority of the SASR don't do nearly as much training for CT as 22 SAS or CAG. The SASR TAG (is it still even called that?) only numbers around 40 from what I understand.

Its a matter of different horses for different courses.

I think the letter is believable enough. Howard lied over Tampa and got caught, and its been so obvious that he's been lying about Iraq.

[96B]

You're right, it was an arrogant statement but the letter made me mad and I was typing in response immediately following reading it.

Look, theres probably things that others have refined somewhat more than us but to my knowledge nothing that we cant do. Its just very irritating to me to see all this arguement about who is the best. Particularly the talk about the SAS and I was just on a British news site and it had listings of US SOF with short descriptions of each.

"Delta Force troops are seen as the American equivalent of the British SAS. Trained in close quarter combat, they are experts at reconnaissance and hunting down missile batteries. They were used during the Gulf war to track down Scud missiles but were not particularly successful. They also suffered knock-backs in failing to rescue US embassy hostages in Tehran, Iran, in 1979."

"One of the most famous band of US Special Forces soldiers thanks to Hollywood films, they serve in eight and 16-man teams where they specialise in sea and river-based offensives, such as taking out bridges and tunnels."

Frustrates me on how the negatives are focused on with regards to Delta Force, although more than likely their many successess go unheard of. With the second paragraph talking about SEALs, it just makes it sound like they are all hype.

Anyways, the main point I was trying to make is the vast majority of people out there will just play favorites and nobody knows about all the successes and failures of Delta or even possibly the SAS. I also think that Delta is more secretive as far as knowledge of its operators and missions. It seems to me that it is widely reported on the British news about the SAS's involvements in foreign operations. Not to mention that they actually wear an official patch, Delta isnt even aknowledged as existing by our government and its members are unknown.

I am a patriot, I love my country, and I will soon serve it in the USMC in a few months time hopefully graduating bootcamp. Everybody in their own sense has a biased opinion but usually it cannot be helped. I understand that there are other elite groups around the world that are excellent at what they do, but ultimately I am thankful that we are on the same side and work together to defeat our enemies. In a sense, the competition between us is good because it inspires our men to become even better.

[IBUsquid]

While I was on active duty stationed on an aircraft carrier, we had a detachment of SEALs onboard. One of the team members I used to talk to on a regular basis, being that I worked in the armory and he had to get the mag keys from us, when I asked him about the skills of other SpecOps groups said that the Isreali Commandoes would kick there asses but the SAS (presumably the UK's) were a tough bunch. He said that they were on par with the SEALs. However, he did not think too highly of the Army's SF. Granted that may be just inter-service rivalry, but it may not have been. I dunno. Thought I just put my two cents in.

[Minjin]

Semper Fi, the author never claimed that American SFs cannot do the Strategic Recon but rather that the Aussies are just better at it. That is not so far-fetched. I will however agree that most of the SAS fans on these boards, and in fact most of them on the internet, see the SAS as the best no matter what. Well as an avid fan and reader of SAS history I will say this; Based on my findings from reading as much as possible about the SAS, they are MY PERSONAL favorites. That does NOT mean they are the best, though at certain things I am sure they are. Just like DevGru and Delta and everyone else will have certain things they are "the best" at. The Aussie SAS may well be the best SR experts on the block. But look at the other side of the coin; your US guys spend that extra bit of time becoming the best at another aspect of Special Operations.

Either way, the letter is interesting, and definitely worth a read.

[Trigger]

What if deposing Saddam will be interpreted by radical Islamists as waging war on their religion. What if this action encourages young men in the region to join terrorist organizations like al Queda?

Excuse me, but there was nothing stopping youngsters in the region from joining AQ before now. Islamic terrorism has been flourishing worldwide for 30+ years now. To try to pin it on Bush now does not wash. I don't know any details about the Aussie's claims or whether he is who he says, but worrying about 'long term effects' now is pretty short-sighted. The terrorists declared war on all of us non-muslims. Now they have one on their hands. Sure, they will retaliate where we are soft. But you must remember: They would have/will try even if we sit home and twiddle our thumbs and sing peace songs. They hate us. They will always hate us. They will act on that hatred, until we exterminate them. (By them, I mean terrorists and those who 'create' terrorists)

With great power, comes great responsibility - Ben Parker

[96B]

It sucks that there is very limited literature about Delta/DEVGRU as compared to the SAS, particularly photographs. I have only a handful of pictures that are supposed to be Delta on my computer.

[grendel]

Excuse me, but there was nothing stopping youngsters in the region from joining AQ before now. Islamic terrorism has been flourishing worldwide for 30+ years now. To try to pin it on Bush now does not wash. I don't know any details about the Aussie's claims or whether he is who he says, but worrying about 'long term effects' now is pretty short-sighted. The terrorists declared war on all of us non-muslims. Now they have one on their hands. Sure, they will retaliate where we are soft. But you must remember: They would have/will try even if we sit home and twiddle our thumbs and sing peace songs. They hate us. They will always hate us. They will act on that hatred, until we exterminate them. (By them, I mean terrorists and those who 'create' terrorists)


There are those who haven’t made up their minds yet. Those sitting on the fence – there are the “moderates” who could either remain moderates or turn fanatical ;) .

[Trigger]

I believe the concussion from a 2000 pound bomb and the smile on the face of a child with a full belly can have a great influence on someone sitting on a fence. :D

[fokket]

Delta cannot be blamed for the failure of the CT op in Tehran,

it was all due to the chopper's fault, yadda yadda yadda

NOTHING to deal with delta

[digrar]

This letter doesn't seem right to me. Why wouldn't SASR start planning as soon as they thought they would go somewhere. SASR are the most prepared soldiers I have ever seen, if this bloke is an officer in SASR that wouldn't be out of the norm for him.
John Howard ( the PM ) wouldn't tell everyone what SASR are up to. We don't even show these blokes faces in the media, why would he tell the media that they are planning individual target strikes. Again if this bloke is an SASR officer he would realise this to be normal.
He refers to to the Special Air Service Regiment as SAS, which they go to great pains not to do, it is always SASR, and if it is ever shortened they just call it the regiment. He also say's he is trying to conceal his identity, then he goes and narrows it down by saying he is in 1 sqaudron.
To be in Special forces you need to be highly motivated, probably even more so for an officer, I can't see how this bloke would be able to continue to serve in his current emotional state ( that is if the letter is legit ).
His views to me seem to be directly opposite to anybody else in the Australian Infantry community, both serving and ex-serving. I could not see anyone writing a letter to Senator Bob Brown unless they were telling him to pull his head in. The Senator has very little credibility outside of the lunatic fringe and vocal minority.
My opinion is that the letter is a fake. If it isn't, he is only an officer and will be found out very soon. He will more than likely be returned to his orriginal unit.