France: Hezbollah TV claims Israel Spreading AIDS in Arab

[BlackRain]

“Al-Manar” stirs uproar in France after accusing Israel of spreading AIDS

Or Heler, Paris

http://www.maarivintl.com/newsimages/al-manar.jpg
Al-Manar news anchor.

Days after Hezbollah-affiliated station permitted to broadcast in France, one of its commentators said Israel was spreading diseases in Arab world.

Less than ten days after Hezbollah’s “al-Manar” television station was permitted to broadcast in France, one of its commentators has stirred uproar after he accused Israel of “repeated attempts in the past several years to spread AIDS throughout the Arab world”.

The commentator, who was defined as an expert on the “Zionist entity”, described at length how Israel has been trying to spread dangerous diseases, including AIDS, in the Arab world.

The French regulatory body, which granted “al-Manar” permission to broadcast in the country, announced on Tuesday it would demand the French parliament to immediately cease its transmissions.

President of the regulatory authority, Dominique Bodis, accused the Lebanese station of violating the rules of the broadcasting license. “It must be taken off the air. Its broadcasts are filled with hatred, violence and racism”, he said.

Meanwhile, the umbrella organization of Jewish institutions in France has decided to step up its protest against the airing of “al-Manar”. In recent days, the organization began asking citizens throughout the country to sign a petition against the station titled, “Worried French Citizens”.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11878


----------

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???

[American Patriot]

What an idiot! I'll bet him 25 goats that if there is a spike in Arabic AIDS it's most likely caused by buggering, not Israeli agents.

[evil bert]

:lol: :lol: rofl rofl

it's off course very different from the zionist-jewish propaganda being shown on US jewish controlled media... apparantly it works BOTH ways. surprise :roll:

well well....

i think i understand your anti french feelings and hate, black rain. and where its coming from...
The EU and especially france have rid themselves of the guilt feeling about the holocaust. For over 50 years europeans didn't say a word about the atrocities being committed by jews in the land they STOLE in the middle east. they got this land throug the lobbying jews in the USA right after the WO II. the time was ripe, everyone felt sorry for them and voilà in 1948 they got their state. nevermind the people who lived there for so many centuries... some kind of jewish fairy-tale book said it was theirs for the taking, so they did, nevermind the long-term consequences...

PS : before that date : no islamic terrorists....
they resisted at first against the jew army, but were defeated (thanks us-jews, making sure that israeli jews had good equipment and intelligence concerning troop movements) then: first terrorist resistence against the jew occupiers, first against military personnel, but the world didn't take notice. the jews were still after all : "innocent" and chosen above all other people...

then : attack at the munich games against the israeli delegation. despicable, true, but ONLY THEN DID THE WORLD START TO PAY ATTENTION at the attrocities and land stealing committed by the jews in the middle east. the UN voted countless resolutions condemning israel for these attrocities but every time a veto in the security council by ? the US , or actually the jew lobby in the Us. the same lobby that controls most of the US media, so most americans never get accurate information and background in the middle east conflict....
after 60 years , the people in the middle east now know that is the US which kept israel land stealing and etnic cleansing policies safe,and they have had enough..took to terrorism. sadly they have been recruited by extremists who no longer make much difference between the west and the usa....

Europe, free from guilt feelings; shows support for the JUST palestinian cause. especially france...so every jew is starting to bash the eu, and certainly france. even the MASS MURDERER sharon did this, calling entire france antisemite :roll: he soon found out that the eu and france were no longer ashamed and baffled by such accusations !

so my dear friend, i understand your constant france bashing... you're a jew ...and of course you're going to deny. on the net, no one seems to be jewish :lol: rofl
you have to defend the LIES and CRIMES of israel so you bash the countries that dare to expose it...

it's the same jewish lobby (wolfowitz among others) that convinced bush to attack irak and to push on to syria and iran (still big ennemies of israel)
of course , due to situation in irak, that plan has become wishfull thinking...

each year the us government gives SIX BILLION dollars to israel...and they buy weapons , tanks and choppers with it. to blow up the resistance and a whole lot of civilians. of course the Us jews als greatly donate..
the eu gives about 200 million euro's in medical/food assistance to the palestinians..no weapons.
so they have little choice , they strap on a bomb made with furtilizer, nails etc and blow themselves up , mostly on buses and streets..


Ps : FOUR times more palestinian civilians killed than jews in the last 6 years...
of course i don't even count the many assassinations performed by shooting several rockets on a hamas member.


this dominating behaviour of jews was omni present in the twenties and even begin thirties in europe. that is why hitler had so much succes with his antisemite rhetoric. the nazi's went all the way...but the whole of europe was anti semite ! even the pope and the catholic church didn't speak out against the nazi propaganda concerning the jews...

and now we see the same behaviour once again in the US and in the middle east..

a lot of people are starting to understand who is once again pulling the strings in the rising confrontation between the west, christians, Us, Eu and the middle east and it's inhabitants...

they call themselves chosen above all other people (yes also a christian of atheist is a lesser being) AND THEY REALLY ARE FIXATED ON BASHING FRANCE .... :oops:

[BlackRain]

:so my dear friend, i understand your constant france bashing... you're a jew ...and of course you're going to deny. on the net, no one seems to be jewish :lol: rofl
you have to defend the LIES and CRIMES of israel so you bash the countries that dare to expose it...

That was a pretty funny rant.

1) I am an American. I am Irish/German Catholic and manged not to get buggered while it parochial school. I also was an altar boy for 8 years.

2) My feelings are pretty representative of where I come from. People do not trust the French government as far as they can throw them. As for the French people, there is no disdain.

3) My family members fought in France in WWI and WWII. My god father was actually shot by German troops and lived . We have no particular love for people who espouse the same anti-semitic ideology as the Nazi's.

The French government should be very sensitive to this as the Vichy participated in sending many French jew citizens to concentration camps during World War II. Instead, they chose to sanction this crap on their air waves.

Maybe I am sensistive to this issue during the Christmas holiday as my savior was a jewish carpenter.

[UoUo]

Yada Yada i am an antisemetic ass hole.

[radon]

Israelis have a serious pr problem. Especially with the issue where the bomb was seemingly dropped on protesters.

Is that channel available dubbed in French/Enhlish btw .Israel should begin to subtitle that program. If the contents are really that bad then it would care bad pr for hezbollah . It will speak against them if they talk too strange stuff. I have always wondered what those middle eastern channels show. Most people here have no idea about these types of things. I have a very modern approach to something. Someone make translated versions of those things.

[He219]

ding, dong - evil bert is gone now!
p-)

[Uncle Chô]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
My opinion is that because it wanted to show the domestic Muslim community in France they were not against them.

They knew for sure they will have to ban the network in the following days. Now it can say: " you see, we authorized them, we warned them and they did not obey so we have to stop the broadcast"

The funniest thing is there was a quick survey amonst the Muslim population in downtown Paris and the vast majority did not ever watch that channel. They only speak Arabic from North Africa and do not understand Al-Manar because it is in literary Arabic from the Gulf! The only channel they care for is Al Jazzerah and their respective home networks where their originated from (i.e. Tunisia / Morocco / Algeria)!

You can also received through the satellite much more violent channels from Sudan for example.

Anyway that was a bad idea from the beginning, a waste of public money and another useless flame war (like is the purpose of your personal crusade against France BR ;))


ding, dong - evil bert is gone now!
Well done He219 (you are pretty busy those last days aren't you? ;) )

[kineret]

I wonder if Chirac would allow Al Qada to broadcast TV programmes if they had one. They could call it "Al-Jihadi TV", and France would beam Hate TV live across europe, all in the good name of 'plurality' and 'multi-culturilism'. The French broadcast association is a bunch of gutless, pathetic douche bags. incredible.

[BigBaribal]

French leaders are actually playing a very silly game with some islamic personnalities:

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

[Uncle Chô]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg
Obviously Chirac is asking for money but Khadafi seems a bit unwilling...

rofl

http://www.av8rstuff.com/gifs/vf74khadafi.JPG

To me "Eldorado Canyon" was the best military action taken by the USA for the last 30 years. It was justify and it fully achieved its goal.

[BigBaribal]

As France has big trouble in Côte d'Ivoire and as muslim rebels of the North are armed by Lybia.......

[Gatling]

BigBaribal
As France has big trouble in Côte d'Ivoire and as muslim rebels of the North are armed by Lybia......
oh you want the muslims out of IC too now? :lol:

President of the regulatory authority, Dominique Bodis,......
As the former mayor of my birth place , I would appreciate the author of this article to spell his name right , if anything else, it's dominique Baudis
PS: I guess they won't have anybody but themselves to blame this one on :lol:

[BlackRain]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg
Obviously Chirac is asking for money but Khadafi seems a bit unwilling...

rofl

To me "Eldorado Canyon" was the best military action taken by the USA for the last 30 years. It was justify and it fully achieved its goal.

It is also interesting the French government had also denied overflight rights for the US mission against Khadafi. It seems strange that the French Embassy in Libya was damaged in the attack. I wonder how that happened?


http://www.af.mil/history/spotlight.asp?storyID=123007458
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1990/JRL.htm

[cut]

French leaders are actually playing a very silly game with some islamic personnalities:

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

what the **** has that go to do with anything? Blair met gadhafi too, as did representatives of the Bush administration.

[Kilgor]

If that attack happened today, it would condemed by the UN as military attack on a soviegn nation.

[Kilgor]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

G: "well.. its not gonna suck its self chirac !"
C: "just a few euro's thats all I ask, please ..."

[BlackRain]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

what the f*** has that go to do with anything? Blair met gadhafi too, as did representatives of the Bush administration.

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi Thursday praised French President Jacques Chirac's visit to Libya, which he said boosted relations between their countries.

"The visit enhanced agreement between France, which plays a key role in the European Union and Libya which is also a main player in the African Union," Gadhafi said of Chirac's two-day visit, the first ever by a French head of state, which ended Thursday.

[David Lehmann]

As for the French people, there is no disdain.

Black Rain,

You say that you have nothing against French people but ALL your posts are constantly directed against France. It seems your single aim in life and fucntion on this forum is to depict France and the French as badly as possible ... and apparently everybody like it here ... you do that in a very oriented way, using every little pretext to post anti-French things. But you are very skilled to surf on the forum rules to continue you business.
Do you think for example that French people are pleased with Al Manar in France ? The first prime minister and many politicians are completely for its interdiction and it is on the way.
And what has the actual France to do with the short time of the Vichy government ? Perhaps than is actual Germany a nazi country ? Are you suggesting that France, that THE French people are Nazis, anti-semitic or something ? That the people who suffered from the German occupation, that the people who were killd etc. are nazis ? Man in that case you are ill. You also forget that French people died against the Axis from 1939 to 1945 on every theaters of operations : Europe, Africa, Eastern Front, Pacific ...
Are you like the very intelligent person I saw here several time ago grossly accusing France of the shoah or what ? He said that France is responsible for the death of 1 million Jews ! What kind of brainwhased people is that ? A big lie, but of course nobody here reacted, it is so cool to post things portraying France as bad as possible to have an enemy to hate isn't it ? Indeed there were 350,000 Jews in France and about 77,000 of them were deported (22% of the Jews), including 25,000 French citizens of Jewish religion ... beside also very numerous non-Jews French.

Already during WW1 1,450,000 French troops died and I don't remember the numerous civilian deaths. During WW2 253,000 French militaries (if I am not mistaking, correct me, the USA for example suffered about 300,000 military losses for a much bigger country during WW2) were KIA and 390,000 French civilians (including the 25000 French Jews, 67000 people in air bombings, 24000 FFI, about 25000 people accused of being partisans and the remaining 250,000 are various people who died as 'collateral' damages during combats, deported or various shot people, people who died in German factories or camps etc.). French people had not to be Jews to be shot by the Nazi military in the street, whole towns were destroyed, burned and people deported in reprisal of resistance actions. There were also people protecting Jews so I hope you will stop your oriented caricature it is really a shame. The country was invaded and under German control with some people collaborating with them and it is indeed a shame. And they were several French enlisted in the Waffen SS like many other European countries but as individuals not as representative of France. You are here in your chair with your little judgements but what do you know of France's 15th century of History, if you are suggesting that France is Nazi or things like that I hope you will stop.

As for all the Jewish losses look at this link, there are countries where clearly bigger % of the Jewish population was killed ... when hearing to people like you France is responsible for the holocaust :
http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/affiliates/hlc/holocaust/statistics/losses.html


Concerning Khadafi once again in your usual "honesty" you try to depict France as being the close friend of an "evil" Lybia, probably helping them to kill US troops or whatever in your mind. Of course when US officials, Blair, Aznar or Schröder meet him you have nothing to say ... that proves only your oriented intentions, an anti-French maniac ... just post anti-French threads to develop as hate as possible against this country.

As for the beloved Khadafi at that time the French army was backing Chad against Lybia and French troops fought against Lybian ones ... it was also during the 80's that French troops died in Lebanon, but it never occured for you probably, only US troops lost their lives their. The Lybian terrorism has also hurt French people like with the UTA flight for example but for you this does not exist more isn't it ?

French troops launched several operations in Chad ... here are some photos from the Foreign Legion for example :
- 1978 : Chad (Tacaud) : http://www.legion-etrangere-parachutiste.com/Tacaud.php
- 1983-1984 : Chad (Manta) : http://www.legion-etrangere-parachutiste.com/manta.php
- 1986-1992 : Chad (Epervier) : http://www.legion-etrangere-parachutiste.com/epervier.php

Although it is rather covert ops and not know French SF made incursions in Lybia and clashed directly with Lybian troops. I know a former Legionnaire from the 2e REP and he told me the destruction of some T55s with their MILAN ATGMs.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_360.shtml (page 6 of the Lybian wars)

The Lybian Ouadi-Doum airfield was destroyed by a French air raid etc. if you are interested, what I doubt, I am sure you are able to find links in English language, since you have time to look and the ability to seach for photos of English hooligans once again to direct a thread against who ... the French, you know these ugly people who eat babies. As I said every kind of pretext.

David

[BlackRain]

Do you think for example that French people are pleased with Al Manar in France ? The first prime minister and many politicians are completely for its interdiction and it is on the way.

We have not seen any news reports stating the government or public is opposed to Al manar. We shall see how long it really takes to revoke this terrorist tv.



You also forget that French people died against the Axis from 1939 to 1945 on every theaters of operations : Europe, Africa, Eastern Front, Pacific ...

David, you need to understand that your revisionist history of WWII is not complete or 100% accurate. The French fought against the Allies in most theaters of operation until invaded. Only the Free French were actually working with the Allies in WWII.

Read this history of the events George Mason University:


France

France (Vichy)
Assessment. Marshal Pétain’s Vichy France attempts to preserve its autonomy following its defeat in 1940. Vichy France maintains a stated policy of armed neutrality, but it appears to be accomodating German demands in all areas with the exception that it does not allow the Axis to use French military forces actively against the Allies. Though the Vichy government wants to limit Axis influence in its African colonies, it is allowing military supplies bound for Rommel to transit Tunisian ports.1

Allied Policy. The U.S. Government still maintains relations with Marshal Pétain while the British openly support de Gaulle. The two primary American strategic objectives are to dissuade the Petain government from allowing Axis forces to use French colonial bases and to prevent the Axis from controlling the French Fleet.2 The Department of State does not believe that the Pétain regime can restrict Axis forces to treaty provisions once Allied forces land in French North Africa. Allied planners expect Axis forces to seize Tunisia, Vichy France, and the Vichy Navy at Toulon if French forces capitulate in North Africa.

Army. The French Army was disgraced during the German invasion of 1940. Most standing forces were disbanded following the Treaty of Capitulation. The Vichy state maintains an eight division (90,000 man) army that serves a policing role for the Petain regime.3 This force is equipped only with light weapons and is not motorized. It is irrelevant to upcoming operations in North Africa.

Navy. The Vichy Navy considers itself as the primary defender of France’s national interest.4 Allied planners fear that the Forces Maritimes Francaises (FMF) will sortie to defend the French colonies against any Allied invasion. Should the French Fleet at Toulon sortie against the Allies, they will temporarily alter the balance of naval power in the Mediterranean to the Axis’ favor. They have the combat potential to destroy an entire Naval Task Group if supported by Axis airpower and submarines. It is the third largest fleet in the Mediterranean (behind Britain and Italy), and it is equipped with modern capital ships. French naval leaders have assured the Allies that they will not allow the Axis to seize the fleet.

These forces are willing and ready to fight, if ordered to do so. British attacks at Mers el Kebir (July, 1940) and the British seizure of Madagascar (May, 1942) infuriate the French. Allied and Vichy naval forces regularly skirmish across the Mediterranean.

Air Forces. French retain some aircraft in Vichy France, but they are operationally insignificant to the TORCH Operation. Primarily, French aircraft maintain sufficient presence to prevent the Allies from attacking the Vichy Navy at Toulon.


French Colonies in North Africa (Vichy)
Assessment of Vichy. Allied intelligence cannot predict the reaction of French forces defending North Africa. Special diplomatic efforts among Vichy officers and senior civilians in North Africa have been inconclusive. These efforts have failed to turn any naval officers charged with the local defense of the colonies. Experience suggests that Vichy troops will fight harder against the Free French (Syria) or British (Mers el Kebir). Allied planners believe that French land forces may provide less resistance to American forces. Should the Vichy French choose to fight, they are capable of offering fierce resistance, and operations to secure French North Africa can take up to three months.

Assessment of Arabs. The Arab population is quiescent. Arab leaders prefer French rule due to the relative autonomy under which they live. With the exception of a few nationalist elements operating in the Atlas Mountains, the Arab population accepts French rule. French civil administrators hold the real power in North Africa, and the Department of State recommends that the Allied invasion commanders transition authority back to these administrators as soon as militarily practicable.

Allied Policy. The Allies want the French in North Africa as partners against the Germans. They want the Arabs to remain neutral, at a minimum. Further guidance is pending.


Army. The Armée d’ Afrique consists of over 100,000 men and is better led and equipped than forces in Vichy France. Units consist of a mix of regular French and colonial troops. These forces are configured for colonial garrison activities, but they are capable of effectively defending themselves against Allied combat forces.5 Planners rate each French division as the equivalent of a reinforced American brigade (without the motorized equipment and armor).6 Due to their lack of motorized equipment, French forces in North Africa rely on railways for intra–theater mobility.7 Each force will probably remain within the colony to which it is assigned due to mobility constraints. Intelligence sources in Africa indicate that the French retain sufficient war reserves for 90 days of operations.8

Navy. Discussed in Theater Characteristics.

Air Forces. Discussed in Theater Characteristics.

Free French (Operating from London)
Assessment of Free French. The Gaullists seek continued French participation in the war against the Axis, liberation of the patrie and empire, and restoration of French military forces—unified under Gaullist political influence.9 Just as the United States and Great Britain have different policies regarding Vichy France, they also disagree over the validity of the Free French movement.

The British government recognizes General DeGaulle as the legitimate head of the Free French government. However, over the past two years, Free French support has been a mixed blessing. In previous operations in Syria and North Africa, the British worked with the Free French in order to maintain political support for military operations in French-controlled areas—and both operations ended in fiascos. Two Free French divisions (equivalent of two Allied brigades) are fighting for the Allies in the Western Desert. However, British Military Intelligence believes that the Free French movement has been infiltrated by Axis intelligence services. For this reason, members of the movement cannot be trusted with vital Allied secrets.

The U.S. government does not recognize the Free French movement, nor do our analysts believe that the Free French government in London speaks for anyone other than itself. General DeGaulle does not command the support of the French people, and he is not politically powerful enough to rally the Vichy to his side. Further, General DeGaulle led attacks against Vichy French forces in Syria and North Africa. Now, Vichy French forces despise the Free French as much as the British Navy.10 Army and Navy Intelligence also confirm that the Free French movement is compromised by Axis intelligence services.

Allied Policy. We will not notify the Free French government of our invasion plans in North Africa until the last possible moment. Though the Free French offer the Allies use of their troops for any operation against Vichy North Africa, planners recommend that the Allies not use them because the Vichy will most assuredly react violently against any attacks by Free French forces. The American Department of State is still trying to determine who would best serve as a French leader once we take control of North Africa.

[djon]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

what the f*** has that go to do with anything? Blair met gadhafi too, as did representatives of the Bush administration.

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi Thursday praised French President Jacques Chirac's visit to Libya, which he said boosted relations between their countries.

"The visit enhanced agreement between France, which plays a key role in the European Union and Libya which is also a main player in the African Union," Gadhafi said of Chirac's two-day visit, the first ever by a French head of state, which ended Thursday.

Quite true Cut...

Does that make Blair, good'ol US ally comparable to Chirac i.e. bad/evil for meeting Gadhafi?
http://watch.windsofchange.net/pics/capt.xag10103251046.libya_britain_xag101.jpg
TRIPOLI, LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA: British Prime Minister Tony Blair (L) shakes hands with Libyan leader Colonel Moamer Kadhafi 25 March 2004 at the start of their meeting in a tent on the outskirts of Tripoli. Blair arrived for landmark talks with Kadhafi amid warming ties between Tripoli and the West, as their countries prepared to sign a gas contract. On the first visit to Libya by a British premier since the country gained independence in 1951, Blair has pledged to offer a "hand in partnership" to Libya following its decision to renounce weapons of mass destruction. The visit marks the most visible sign yet of Libya's return to the international fold after agreeing in December to give up its programs to develop banned weaponry. AFP

It would be hypocritical to hold Chirac on a different standard than Blair for meeting Gadhafi.
Not to say Blair or Chirac are wrong in meeting with him...it's all politics..... remember Rummy meeting saddam (friends then enemies later).... Gadhafi is now a friend of the west , even the Bush administration is ironing out its differences with Gadhafi.

[TALOS]

I dont have a problem with any leaders meeting him, it proves nothing, as long as he has renounced terrorism bring him into the fold but watch him closely.
The only time I would say it mattered is if he was rendering aid WHILE terrorism continued. Otherwise all leaders have a right and obligation even to meet other politicians IMHO

[djon]

I dont have a problem with any leaders meeting him, it proves nothing, as long as he has renounced terrorism bring him into the fold but watch him closely.
The only time I would say it mattered is if he was rendering aid WHILE terrorism continued. Otherwise all leaders have a right and obligation even to meet other politicians IMHO
well he seems to have renounced terrorism ...that said...D o State & Libyan officials are still ironing out differences before their new relationship blooms...

Libya arrests 'al-Qaeda' suspects
Libya has arrested 17 members of a group linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, officials say.
Interior Minister Nasser al-Mabruk said the nature of the links was not yet clear, but the inquiry was continuing.

The men had entered Libya illegally and were arrested as soon as they arrived, the minister added.

Correspondents say Libya is emerging from decades of international isolation after abandoning its pursuit of weapons of mass destruction last year.

Last month Washington lifted its trade embargo against Tripoli as a reward for Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's decision.

The EU and the US imposed trade sanctions in 1986 in retaliation for what they saw as Libyan support for terrorist groups.


"The preliminary investigations proved that this group of 17 people had relations to Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda organisation, but the form and nature of this relationship is not yet clear," Egypt's official Middle East News Agency (MENA) quoted the minister as saying.

Libya remains on a US list of state sponsors of "terrorism".
[not yet..yet....in the fold]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3732830.stm

and a much earlier 2003 report....seems according to the article... OBL is trying to out Gadhafi... remember Gadhafi and the House of Saud had a falling around that time ....

Al-Qaeda Targets Gaddafi - Stewart Bell (National Post-Canada)
A Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) report says al-Qaeda-backed militants in Libya want to assassinate Col. Muammar Gaddafi, providing a possible explanation for the dictator's recent attempts to improve relations with the West.
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) is the most powerful radical faction waging holy war against Gaddafi, aiming to establish an Islamic state in Libya, CSIS said.
"In order to achieve their goals, the LIFG has made numerous attempts to kill Col. Gaddafi," said the report, dated September 2002.
Headed by Anas Sebai, a key al-Qaeda leader, the Libyan fighting group includes about 2,500 Libyans who fought in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. The group's stronghold is in the mountains on Libya's northeast coast.
Three other armed groups, the Islamic Movement of Martyrs, Libyan Jihad Movement, and Islamic Movement for Change are also battling Gaddafi and at one point had "thousands, if not tens of thousands of supporters," CSIS said.
A section of the report called "Presence and Activities in Canada" was entirely deleted by CSIS before the document was released under the Access to Information Act.
http://www.dailyalert.org/archive/2003-12/2003-12-26.html

[walford]

At least it wasn't printed in The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/). Then I wouldn't believe it.

[MEGR]

Silly zionists spreading their aids. ;)

[djon]

French seek 'anti-Semitic' TV ban
By Sebastian Usher
BBC world media correspondent,



French PM Jean-Pierre Raffarin has called for a Lebanon-based satellite TV channel backed by Hezbollah to be taken off air for its "anti-Semitic" content.
His intervention comes two weeks after al-Manar was authorised to continue broadcasting in Europe by France's media watchdog.

The channel signed an undertaking not to incite hatred or violence.

Anti-Semitism has recently become a sensitive issue in France after a big rise in attacks on Jewish targets.

The furore caused by al-Manar in France was demonstrated by the fact that the prime minister felt it necessary to address the issue in the Senate.

Mr Raffarin said he believed the country's media watchdog, the CSA, would have no choice but to stop al-Manar broadcasting to France.

"Al-Manar's programmes are incompatible with our values. It is clear that these programmes will lead to the rescinding of the agreement signed between the CSA and al-Manar," Mr Raffarin said.

Jewish groups in France have protested in particular about a series on al-Manar portraying Zionism as a criminal conspiracy.

Al-Manar argues that it is not anti-Semitic, but anti-Israeli.

It says moves to ban it have been orchestrated by Israel for political reasons.

Strict ban

In order to be allowed to continue broadcasting to France, it recently signed an agreement with the French broadcasting authorities not to show programmes that might incite violence or hatred on religious or national grounds.

The head of the CSA described it as the most rigorous ever imposed on a TV network.

But pressure to ban al-Manar has not let up - its output has been closely watched for signs of anti-Semitism.

Last week, monitors recorded a commentator on the channel speaking of what he called "Zionist attempts to transmit Aids to Arab countries".

On Wednesday, the CSA asked the highest administrative court in France to suspend the channel.

In his comments to the Senate, Mr Raffarin said he regretted there was currently no law to allow the government to ban the station immediately, but pledged to work towards introducing one.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom has congratulated France for moving against al-Manar.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4064317.stm

Published: 2004/12/03 01:05:36 GMT

[BlackRain]

French seek 'anti-Semitic' TV ban
By Sebastian Usher
BBC world media correspondent,




Thanks for the story!

[BlackRain]

Al-Manar TV blasts 'Zionist' plot to take it off air

BEIRUT, Dec 2 (AFP) - Al-Manar television, the mouthpiece of Lebanon's Shiite Muslim group Hezbollah, on Thursday branded calls to take the channel off air in Europe as "Zionist" attempts to stir up problems for France in the Muslim world.

Al-Manar's news director, Hassan Fadlallah, said he regretted a call from French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin to remove the channel from the air because its programmes were "incompatible with our values".

"Such declarations are but political pressures ahead of a legal ruling," Fadlallah told AFP.

Al-Manar was authorised to broadcast by satellite inside the European Union only two weeks ago after it signed an agreement with France's Higher

Audiovisual Council (CSA) not to incite hatred or violence.

On November 23, monitors recorded an "expert on affairs relative to the Zionist entity" who in a press review spoke of "Zionist attempts to transmit dangerous diseases like AIDS via exports to the Arab states."

On Wednesday, the CSA made an official submission to France's highest administrative court, the state council, asking it to outlaw Al-Manar, which is relayed by the Paris-based company Eutelsat.

"It is clear they will lead to the termination of the contract between the CSA and Al-Manar," Raffarin said Thursday.

Fadlallah put Rafarrin's remarks down to "pressures on institutions in France that are responsible for the termination of the contract and they are means to avoid meeting legal commitments."

"Al-Manar does not have any problems with French laws and values which it shares, particularly justice, freedom and human rights," he said.

"The problem has nothing to do with these values, it comes from the incitement by the Zionist organisations and lobby, which is trying to create a problem for France with the Arab and Islamic public opinion."

"We hope that France does not respond to such attempts," he said.

Should the channel be banned from broadcasting in Europe through Eutelsat, Fadlallah said viewers in Europe would be able to watch Al-Manar through other satellites.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom earlier praised the French government and took credit for its action against Al-Manar.

© AFP

[big_les]

Honestly, you two need your heads knocking together. First its the Jews claiming AIDS-infected suicide bombers, now its the Arabs claiming Jewish agents spreading it!

[David Lehmann]

David, you need to understand that your revisionist history of WWII is not complete or 100% accurate. The French fought against the Allies in most theaters of operation until invaded. Only the Free French were actually working with the Allies in WWII.

Yes, just call me a revisionist if that's all that you found just because it doesn't fit in your anti-French propaganda. What is the relevance of basing your hate against France because of the existence once of the Vichy government ? What has that to do with today's events ? Nothing more than Nazi Germany with today's Germany.

You depict on purpose France as a big collaborationist country, full of pro-nazi people, that's revisionism yes. French people suffered from the German domination.
Just Free French fought ? So Free French are not French people for you ? This statement is also wrong, people didn't wait to be liberated as you said to fight : the first few people joining De Gaulle (only 7000 in July 1940), the French troops that joined not Vichy in the several colonies and like Leclerc who fought in Africa already in 1941 when you weren't yet at war, the partisans/maquis, all the people who escaped the metropolitan territory to join the fight, the French troops who fought in the RAF, the Royal Navy, in the Russian air force etc. as well as in the (Free) French Army did not wait anything.



In the summer of 1940, there was grossly no more France. A high percentage of the population north of the Loire river had fled their houses, and were crawling south on the roads, civilian and flying soldiers together under repetitive terror bombings from the Germans. Bridges were destroyed, roads interrupted and all railways rolling stocks were evacuated to the south. Ninety per cent of the Paris population was trying to join the south. At the entries of Abbeville, the number of refugees killed by the Germans was so high that, even today nobody can estimate how many refugees, French and Belgian, lost their lives there.
There was no administration left in most of towns, firemen had been ordered to go south, the town staff, the medics, all people with cars had fled. The government was also on the roads, Paris, Tours, Bordeaux, Clermont Ferrand, Vichy. Nobody did know what was going on, and except for some unheard speeches of Petain, and what could be found on some rare edition of local south France papers there was no information medias.
All reactions were individual. Some committed suicide. The majority tried to join their lost family members. Until November 1940, lists of children found and lost were published by the red cross and the church. There was no post before August, no direct trains to Paris or Lille or Nancy before November. Travel was limited, and Germans prohibited the return of refugees to the north-east zone.
The majority of the population was knocked unconscious, and just trying to survive. In addition, remember there were 1,450,000 prisoners, men in the prime of life, with wife and children left behind.
What happened in Vichy was entirely indifferent to the individuals. Even Montoire remained largely ignored, in November 1940

The German Europe conception was largely ignored before 1943. Papers did not consider this subject. They limited their comments to the collaboration concept, and often to the practical aspects of this collaboration, crossing of demarcation line, sending of interzone postcards, regulations edited by the authorities, south, north and Brussels. With some local news and information on rations cards, some sport results and the deaths and births, the four to eight pages of the papers were rapidly filled.
I am not sure the leadership in Vichy did really discuss on this Germanic Europe. They had lots of inner quarrels to solve, and a new regime to organize.
Political life was minimal, and people were not interested if the subject was not everyday life, or war news on successes or defeats. Moreover the general opinion was that all printed matter was lie. And already in occupied Paris in 1940 several people not willing to obey to the Germans had been shot.

Until about 1942, the majority of the French in the Free Area were more or less in favor of Vichy. In the Occupied Area the participation to a political movement was generally not the acceptation of an ideology at all but it was just a mean to improve everyday's life.
The youth was also often attracted by the uniforms (which otherwise were totally banned in the occupied area) and the organized leisure of the paramilitary movements. Wearing an uniform was a promotion in the men's world and several 16 year old boys were enrolled in the German army. It was also a break with all the other small movements without future and with poorly charismatic leaders having little audience. The idea of the unique party had failed and the new idea of a unified Europe against communism seemed at one hand an easier notion to understand and something more important than the little French-French interests. These men were not national-socialist generally but anti-communist.
For the adults, going to several meetings or simply joining to a political movement by signing a paper translated generally the research of improving every day's life (for example in exchange of the promise to liberate a brother, a father ... which was held in Germany or forced to work in German industries), simply the curiosity or even sometimes a kind of snobbery favoring sometimes local promotion.
But when the question was to wear the German uniform, to join the German auxiliary forces, the police, the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS the issue was totally different. In 1941 their was still the perspective of a short war which could have tempted some adventurers, but already after the first winter in Russia it was different. That's why many preferred to serve in France in auxiliary units.
From 1943, things are totally different. The hope of a German victory is each day smaller and most of the factories as well as cities are bombed by the allies. The resistance movements attacked more likely and more often the French collaborationists than the German army. To defend themselves these collaborationists have to be armed and the single way to get a weapon was to join a military or paramilitary formation. Only the men who joined the LVF and the Waffen-SS wanted really to fight with the German army some by real national-socialist ideas, the majority much more by simple anti-communist ideas.
In August 1944, the Vichy government had disappeared and the men who had followed the German were considered as THE ENEMY, except from the "Malgré-Nous" from the annexed lands (about 140,000 men) which had been enlisted by force since August 1942. Nevertheless the "Malgré-Nous" taken POW by the soviets were not treated differently than soldiers from the LVF or the Charlemagne and were very badly treated in the camp of Tambov.
In totality about 45,000 French served under the German uniform (not counting here the 140,000 requisitioned men and also not the Militia which depended from Vichy) in fighting or auxiliary units. The LVF and Waffen-SS represented grossly 15,000 to 20,000 men.

During 1941-1945 about 45,000 French volunteered to wear a German uniform (not counting here the 140,000 requisitioned/forced men from Alsace and Lorraine)in fighting or auxiliary units (workers, transports). The LVF and Waffen-SS represented grossly 15,000 to 20,000 men. There was also Vichy's militia from wich French people suffered, certainly not you and what has the existence of a Vichy army to do in your argumentation ? Is that your justification of hating France ?
Beside that there were about 200,000 resistants/FFI and the Free French / French Army forces which grew rapidly : about 500000 men (560000 men on 1st September 1944 and 1 million men end 1944).



Concerning the Vichy Army what do you think you will learn me ?
The Armistice Army (a French version of the 100,000 German Army since Versailles until 1935) had no German instructor. Vichy was a "neutral" state not an ally of Germany.
The real purpose was not only to get a better morale and general efficiency but to train in a discreet way all the remaining new, light divisions to mountain warfare in sight of the "second round" with the Italian Army that both Vichy and Rome waited at the end of the general conflict to have to fight around Nice and some Alps valleys. Many military researches and programs were also led secretly for tanks and planes.
About the high standard, in spite of the scarce and poor weapons available, of the "Armée de l'Armistice" do not forget that the French were able to use, for their new regiments, only the best of the volunteers of the army and of the new classes available, with an optimum number of officers and, above all, professional NCOs.

The post 1940 Vichy Army was divided in two. There was the 100,000 men "Armée Nouvelle" in the Unoccupied (Vichy) Zone in France proper and the larger Colonial Army, most of which was in North Africa.
The "Armée Nouvelle" was meant to be composed of volunteers, but couldn't raise sufficient, so the Germans allowed it to keep part of the 1940 conscription class with the colors. When these were demobilized (in early 1942 I think) it fell far below strength. At the time it was disbanded by the Germans on end November 1942 it only had about 70,000 men. It was allowed no tanks, no anti-tank guns and no artillery above 75mm. It was also allowed only very limited mechanization and made much use of bicycles instead. Its most powerful vehicles were about 50-60 light Panhard armored cars but without guns, only MGs. It had some secret armories hidden away from the Germans, but these was mostly infantry weapons. Generally the Vichy army in France was under-strength, under-equipped and of lower quality than the French army in North Africa.

By contrast, the Vichy army in North Africa was slightly larger (120,000 men), fully up to strength and was allowed heavier equipment by the Germans. This was because the Vichy French said they wanted to recapture the African colonies that had gone over to the Free French and also so that they could resist any Allied attack more effectively. As a result they were allowed heavy artillery, anti-tank guns and some tanks. The best French officers also volunteered for service in North Africa because it offered more prospect of active soldiering.

It should also be kept in mind that for many officers the primary aim of the army was the hope to gain revenge on the Germans and Italians one day. The Vichy Army was never a German puppet army and it only clashed with the Allies in the colonies as a result of Allied attacks against the "neutral" state. When it did so it generally acquitted itself creditably.
The value and effectiveness of the French Vichy Army was tested for example in Syria where the Australian, British and Free French forces didn't led a very brilliant campaign in 1941. Since July 1941 the British forces attacked the Vichy forces (Mers El Kébir, Dakar) by surprise, without any declaration of war. In Syria several British units were totally destroyed.
After surrendering in Syria, most of the Vichy forces instead of joining the Free French forces were sent to North Africa. In November 1942 the Vichy French forces fought against the too much "green" US Army divisions during operation Torch but in fact only few of the French units fought really and only defended them without clear orders, there were important political discussions which will lead to the later formation of a unified French Army. In 1943 the former Vichy colonial forces in North Africa were transformed into the bulk of the Free French forces that went on to campaign in Italy, France and Germany.

You forgot also that in November 1942 the French Fleet scuttled itself rather than delivering the ships to the Germans.



The FFL denomination for "Forces Françaises Libres" is in fact only used for the French volunteers until the 31st july 1943. After that, the term "Armée Française" (French Army) is officially used. In fact, since the 14th july 1942, the general De Gaulle employed the denomination "France Combattante" (Fighting France) for all the French troops participating to the liberation effort, including the resistance which gave rise to the FFI.
- in the army
- in the navy (10000 men in the Royal navy and on FFL vessels)
- in French air force but also in allied air forces (about 3500 men in the RAF and in the soviet air force). In the RAF there were about 150 French aces (= at least 5 confirmed kills) : Pierre Clostermann (33 kills), Marcel Albert (23 kills), Jean Demozay (21 kills) etc. In the Soviet Air Force there was the GC.3 "Normandie Niémen" Squadron (273 confirmed kills).


The French air force in 1943-1945 was composed of :

In UK :
- 4 fighter groups (Alsace -Sqn 341-, Ile-de-France -Sqn 340-, Cigognes -Sqn 329- and Berry -Sqn 345-)
- 3 bomber groups (Lorraine, Tunisie and Guyenne)
- 2 transport groups (Artois and Picardie)

In USSR :
- 1 fighter group (Normandie-Niemen -GC.3-)

Under US command in North Africa, Sicily, Corsica, France etc.
- 9 fighter groups (Nice -Sqn 326-, Corse -Sqn 327-, Provence -Sqn 328-, Roussillon, Champagne, Navarre, Lafayette, Dauphiné and Ardennes)
- 6 bomber groups (Bretagne, Maroc, Gascogne, Bourgogne, Sénégal and Franche-Comté)
- 1 reconnaissance group (Belfort)
- 1 transport group (Anjou)

On 18th June 1940, General Charles De Gaulle broadcasted an appeal on BBC radio for French men and women to join him and the British in the fight against Nazi Germany. But, by the end of July 1940 only 7000 people had volunteered to join the Free French forces. The attacks by the RAF on the French Navy at Mers-El-Kebir and Dakar caused bitterness in France and did not encourage former members of the French Army to escape to Britain.
Many combats in North Africa from 1941 to 1943. Free French forces fought Italian troops in Eritrea and Ethiopia and faced French troops loyal to Vichy France in Syria and Lebanon. In Eritrea, on 8th April 1941, the 13e DBLE took the port of Massawa from a garrison of 1400 Italian troops. Leclerc's column (ancestor of the 2e DB) took the Koufra oasis in Lybia to the Italians in 1941 and all the Fezzan area (SW Lybia) between March 1942 and January 1943. Leclerc’s force quickly crushed the Italian defense in southern Libya and marched 1500 miles north reaching Tripoli on 23rd January 1943 just as the British arrived from Egypt. Leclerc placed himself under the command of Field Marshal Montgomery and his corps played a major role in the advance of the 8th Army on Tunisia. He was promoted to General de Division on 5th May 1943 and ordered to Morocco to form the 2e DB (2nd Armored Division). Free French soldiers participated in allied campaigns in Egypt, Lybia and Tunisia. General Koenig and its 1st DFL did particularly well against Afrika Korps in Bir Hakeim in June 1942.

I am absolutely sure that without the French forces the strategic outcome would have been the same, but I still think they played an important role in specific areas and I feel they are often ignored unlike other allied troops. Speaking only for example about the assault on the "European fortress" : while the French SAS, French commando-marines and 2e DB arrived in Normandy I can hardly imagine the southern landing without French forces. They played also an important role in Italy with the other allies.

About 120,000 French soldiers fought in Italy in 1943/1944 in the French CEFI (Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Italie) under the command of general Juin. The CEFI allowed to take Monte Cassino by piercing more south in the Monte Majo, a much more mountainous area but general Juin's Goumiers and their mule packs did it and broke the front where the Germans didn't expected them. They also opened the doors of Rome to the allied forces on 4th June 1944 after a series of battles : Garigliano, Pico ... In Italy they lost 7000 KIA, 30000 WIA and 42000 MIA.
About the CEFI, have a look at http://members.aol.com/Custermen85/Units/FrenchOrg.htm it is very interesting.

In mid 1944, the Free French forces numbered about 500,000 men. The French CEFI is used as basis to build the French 1st army under the command of general De Lattre De Tassigny. This army landed in Provence during Anvil/Dragoon. The French 1st Army liberated both of the large French Mediterranean harbors Toulon and Marseille. The French 1st Army participated in pushing the Germans out of France (liberation of Toulon, Marseille, Lyon, Villefranche and Autun etc.) and back to the Rhine and the Danube. This operation is generally not well known, probably because only 3 US divisions were involved in comparison to the 7-8 French divisions. The cities of Toulon and Marseille as it is the case for the Elba and Corsica islands were liberated by only French troops.
Toulon and Marseille fell to the allies on 28 August. They were soon handling more supplies than all the Normandy ports combined, and proved a logistical life-saver for the continued allied advance across France. Patch's 7th army linked up with Patton's 3rd army near Dijon on 11th September. The French 1st and US 7th armies were organized into the 6th army group under US general Devers (15th September), and served on the southern flank of the allied armies, advancing through Alsace-Lorraine into Germany and Austria by VE-day.

On the allied side during Anvil/Dragoon :

The Naval Western Task Force (Admiral Hewitt, USN) with 2120 ships including 359 combats and escort ships, 600 large transport ships and smaller vessels.
There were indeed only 34 French combats and escort ships including :
1x battleship : "Lorraine"
5x cruisers : "Duguay-Trouin", "Emile Bertin", "Fantasque", "Terrible" and "Malin"
5x torpedo boats

The MAAF (Mediterranean Allied Air Force) (General Ira Eaker, USAF) was composed of 19000 aircrafts.
The French air force participated only with :
6x fighter-bomber groups on P-47
4x bomber groups on B-26
1x reconnaissance group on P-38

The ground forces were composed of 3 US divisions (36th, 45th and 3rd infantry divisions + several small rangers and airborne units) and 7 divisions of the French 1st Army + not endivisionned units (Bataillon d'Afrique (commandos), Bataillon de Choc (commandos) etc.)

Several info can be found here :
http://www.multimanpublishing.com/pp/
http://www.stratisc.org/partenaires/ihcc/ihcc_44prov_tdm.html


The 1st French Army was organized in 2 corps :
· 1st corps under the command of general Béthouart
· 2nd corps under the command of general De Goislard de Monsabert

and they are composed of :
· 1e Division Française Libre (motorized infantry division)
· 2e division d'infanterie marocaine (infantry division)
· 3e division d'infanterie algérienne (infantry division)
· 4e division marocaine de montagne (mountain infantry division)
· 9e division d'infanterie coloniale (infantry division)
· 1e division blindée (armored division)
· 5e division blindée (armored division)

+ not endivisionned elements :
· Bataillon d'Afrique (commandos)
· Bataillon de Choc (commandos)
· Bataillon de France (commandos)
· Four GTM (groupements de tabors marocains) (infantry)
· 9e Régiment de Zouaves (infantry)
· 1e Régiment de Tirailleurs Algériens (infantry)
· Two Chasseurs d'Afrique regiments (RCA) (armored regiments)
· Three Spahis regiments (recon armored regiments with armored cars and Stuarts)
· One Régiment Colonial de Chasseurs de Chars (armored regiment with tank destroyers)
· 2e Régiment de Dragons (armored regiment)
· 64e, 65e and 66e RAA (Régiment d'Artillerie d'Afrique = African artillery regiment)
· Régiment d'artillerie coloniale d'Afrique occidentale française
· Régiment d'artillerie coloniale du Levant
· Four engineer regiments and one bridging battalion

----> During late war several other divisions joined this Army :
· 27e division alpine (mountain infantry division) who played a role in the Alps in 1944 (formed on the basis of the former 1e division alpine).
· 3e division blindée (armored division) (created sooner, disbanded September 1944 an rebuilt in 1945)
· 1e division d'infanterie
· 10e division d'infanterie
· 14e division d'infanterie
· 19e division d'infanterie
· 23e division d'infanterie
· 25e division d'infanterie
· 36e division d'infanterie
· 1e DCEO (Division Coloniale d'Extrême Orient)
· 2e DCEO (Division Coloniale d'Extrême Orient)
All the late infantry divisions for the most part comprised former FFI ("French Forces of the Interior") groups. These division served mostly in security, garrison and occupation roles. Except the alpine division which included many former "chasseurs alpins" and fought in the Alps in 1944/1945, the battle efficiency of new infantry divisions was rather low, the freshly enlisted men were not trained to the modern combined arms warfare and had to learn.
The French armored divisions were organized for combat like the US AD, in "combat commands" called GT (groupements tactiques) in French. The 2e DB was assigned to Patton’s American 3rd Army and landed in Normandy on July 23, 1944. The unit saw its first action in the effort to close the Falaise pocket and liberated Argentan on 12th August. The Free French 2e DB led the drive towards Alençon and Paris.

The 2e DB, French commando-marines, French SAS etc. arriving from Normandy made junction with the 1st French Army on 12th September 1944. Go in the history section to read about the French SAS if you are interested in something else than simply bashing France. French SAS were involved for D-Day already on 5th June and played an important role. The 177 French commando-marines (included in the British 4th Commando, formed in March 1941) participated also long before the Normandy landing like the French SAS. During D-day these French commandos (troops n°1 and n°8 of the 4th Commando) landed at Sword Beach in front of Ouistreham and the strongpoint "Riva Bella". The French Commando-marines were used later in other operations, especially in the Netherlands. At Walcheren for example, the first assault was led by the troops of the 4 Cdo with the French commando-marines. They landed in Vlissingen (uncle beach). 5 hours later the Royal Marines 41, 47, 48, a Dutch troop and a Norwegian troop landed at Westkapelle. After that came the battles in North East of France, especially in Alsace. Liberation of the Belfort area, and then in Alsace : Colmar pocket, liberation of Strasbourg and all the battles during operation Nordwind ... and then southern Germany and Austria. In the Vosges/Alsace battles (where about 25% of the allied forces were French) during 1944, French ground forces were the first reaching the Rhine (not crossing it) on 19th November 1944 and then they entered south Germany and Austria : Kehl, Karlsruhe, Neckar, Pforzheim, Tübingen, Stuttgart, Rottweil, Uberlingen, Sigmaringen, Bregenz, Bludenz ... They were also among the first reaching and taking Berchtesgaden and the "Adler's nest" with the US 3rd ID. A battalion from the US 3rd ID was followed by the French 2nd Armored Division. The French were the first Allied troops into the Eagle's Nest at the top of Kehlstein mountain, followed by C/506th, and members of the 321st GFA battalion. On 8th May 1945 the general De Lattre de Tassigny represented France during the capitulation of Germany.

Beside the French SAS and commando-marines there are other not well known French commandos who were active in the Pacific theater of operations during WW2. The CLI (corps léger d'intervention = light intervention corps) including 500-700 men at the creation in 1943 (in Algeria, under the command of colonel Huard) and 1600 men in 1945 was formed by various commandos called "Gaurs". They are the French equivalent of the "Chindits" and they were active in Burma and especially in Indochina from 1944 to 1946. The CLI was integrated in the 20th Indian division and was dropped behind the Japanese lines for guerrilla actions. They lost 120 KIA and 209 WIA. On 1st May 1945, in India, the unit becomes the 5e RIC including an airborne battalion and a SAS battalion (airborne and amphibious operations). The SAS battalion includes the marine commandos from capitaine de corvette Pierre Ponchardier also known as "commando Ponchardier" (or "tigers' commando" by the Viet-Minh). After WW2, operation in October 1945 around Saigon against the Viet-Minh, liberation of southern Indochina. Operation in Mytho, Vinh Long, Cantho, Tra Vinh etc. In 2 months the commandos free dozen of French people, 800 Christian annamists and liberates several areas. They are directly under the command of General Leclerc.

David

[S'13]

Honestly, you two need your heads knocking together. First its the Jews claiming AIDS-infected suicide bombers, now its the Arabs claiming Jewish agents spreading it!

Well there have been cases where suicied bombers were found to be infected with Hepatitis B and casualties had to be treated against it, I'm not saying that these suicied bombers were infected on purpose and used as some sort of "biological bombs".

Articles about these cases:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2147204.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992588

Palestinians terrorists have been using rat poison in explosives (the poison has a substance that prevents blood clotting).

[djon]

Honestly, you two need your heads knocking together. First its the Jews claiming AIDS-infected suicide bombers, now its the Arabs claiming Jewish agents spreading it!

Well there have been cases where suicied bombers were found to be infected with Hepatitis B and casualties had to be treated against it, I'm not saying that these suicied bombers were infected on purpose and used as some sort of "biological bombs".

Articles about these cases:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2147204.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992588

Palestinians terrorists have been using rat poison in explosives (the poison has a substance that prevents blood clotting).
dam that is bad....using an aids-borne-suicide-bomber or one with a deadly flue strain etc is certainly a multiplier.... yeap it ought to be classified as a banned biological weapon.

[David Lehmann]

How and where is Al Manar broadcasted ?

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/10_04/oct_04.htm#2

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/10_04/fyop.htm

As usual it is not as simple as you want to depict the thing as a big complot of the French government broadcasting the channel in France ... it is by the way broadcatsed in many other countries all over the world in satellite channels packages.



Al Manar diffusion :

Through a multi-national satellite system, Al-Manar broadcasts from Lebanon all over the world

1. Intelsat , broadcasting to North America (US and Canada)
The Intelsat company distributes Al-Manar to North America (US and Canada).The company has taken over Telestar, owned by Sky Net. Intelsatis the world’s largest global satellite corporation. After its privatization, the corporation was registered in Bermuda and is currently operating branches worldwide. The corporation’s head office is located in Washington. The company’s CEO is Conny L. Kullman. The president of the company’s staff in Bermuda is Ramu V. Potaraz. The Al-Manar station is broadcast on the Intelsat Americas 5 satellite (97W),on GlobeCast’s Arabic channels package.

2. Arabsat 3A, broadcasting to the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe. The Arabsat company, broadcasting Al-Manar programming to the Middle East, North Africa and several European countries. It is an inter-Arab satellite company, comprised of Arab League countries. The countries’ representatives on company conventions are the Arab information ministers. The company’s major shareholder is Saudi Arabia.

3. Eutelsat’s Hotbird 4, broadcasting to North Africa and Europe (including France ... but also UK, Germany, Spain etc.)

The Eutelsat company distributes Al-Manar to Europe and North Africa. It is a satellite company formed by the European Space Agency. It was privatized and turned into a private company, registered in France and bound by the French broadcasting regulations (1). The chairman and CEO of the company is Giuliano Berretta, and its Deputy CEO is Jean Paul Brillaud. This company broadcasts a package of 10 Arabic channels (under agreement with Arabsat ) including, as mentioned above, the Al-Manar station.


(1) Legal proceedings are currently under way in France to ban Al-Manar’s broadcasting.


4. Nss 803, broadcasting to North Africa, also covers parts of Europe.
The New Skies Satellites (NSS) company distributes Al-Manar to North Africa and parts of Europe (Nss 803). It is a company formed after the privatization of Intelsat. It is registered as a company in the US ; however, its members are representative communications companies from various countries. The company’s head office is located in the Hague , Holland; it also operates a branch in Washington . The company’s CEO is Daniel S. Goldberg.

5. During the last several months, Al-Manar has begun broadcasting via two additional satellites: Hispasat, broadcasting to South American countries, and Asiasat, broadcasting to Asia.

The Asiasat company, broadcasting Al-Manar to Asian countries. It is an Asian satellite company registered in Bermuda . The Ses Global company, registered in Luxembourg and holding several satellite companies, holds 34% of the company’s shares. The chairman of the board of Ses Global is René Steichen, and his deputy is Jean Paul Vens. The Al-Manar station is broadcast on the Asiasat satellite (405.5E 35) as part of Arabsat’s Arabic channels package.

The Hispasat company, broadcasting Al-Manar to South American countries, belongs to a privatized satellite company currently held by Spanish companies ReteVision Telefonia and BBVA. One of the company’s primary shareholders is Eutelsat. The company’s president is Pedro Antonio Martin.




Legal proceedings to ban Al-Manar in France and Lebanon’s rushing to Hezbollah’s aid

The airing of Al-Shatat (the Diaspora), an anti-Semitic series that was viewed, among else, by Muslim communities in France and Europe, led the French Broadcasting Authority (Conseil Supérieur de l’Audiovisuel – CSA) to decide to ban the broadcasts of Al-Manar’s satellite. In February 2004, France withdrew its decision to ban the broadcasting in the wake of Lebanese diplomatic activity. According to Al-Manar officials (AFP, August 20), the French judiciary has decided to give Al-Manar an extension until October 1 to work out the issues of anti-Semitic programming with the government, before its broadcasting was to be terminated. At any rate, Al-Manar presently continues its broadcasting to France; however, if it does not reach an agreement with the French government, its broadcasting will be terminated by November 30, 2004.

Lebanon was engaged in diplomatic activity to dissuade France from prohibiting the broadcasting of Al-Manar. It is part of the political backing provided by the Lebanese regime, under Syria ’s inspiration, to Hezbollah. In a letter addressed to the French Foreign Minister, Lebanon’s Foreign Minister, Jean Obeid, condemned the legal proceedings against the broadcasting of Al-Manar currently under way in France. He rejected the claim that Al-Manar’s broadcasting was anti-Semitic, claiming that the broadcasting was of anti-Zionist character and accusing the Israeli government of attempting to portray any objection to its policy as an attack on the Jewish people (Daily Star, Lebanon, August 14, 2004).

Commenting on the above issue, Abdallah al-Quseir, a Hezbollah deputy in the Lebanese parliament, stated that the broadcasting of Al-Manar in France was based on an agreement between Arabsat and European satellite provider Eutelsat. According to the agreement, said Quseir, the European satellite is supposed to broadcast a package of 10 Arabic channels, including Al-Manar. Al-Quseir claimed that the French had no legal right to remove a station from the package. Al-Quseir noted that this was pointed out to Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa by Hezbollah through the Lebanese Foreign Minister ( Ad-Diyar, Lebanon, August 12, 2004).

If the French ban the station, such an action will have a principal political meaning as an important step towards the de-legitimization of Al-Manar’s inciting broadcasting. However, in practice, Al-Manar’s broadcasting would still be received in France, owing to the complexity and diversity of its distribution system, assisted, as noted earlier, by a system of Arab and international satellites.(3)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3) It should be noted that Al-Manar officials have stated that the technical and practical repercussions of the French decision are limited because the channel is also broadcasting on other satellites besides the European satellite, including Arabsat, Nilesat, and other Arab satellites.

Regards,

David

[Clarsachier]

[Quote Blackrain;
David, you need to understand that your revisionist history of WWII is not complete or 100% accurate. The French fought against the Allies in most theaters of operation until invaded. Only the Free French were actually working with the Allies in WWII.


Oh really? 'Most theaters?'

Then you should be able to name just one.

[fantassin]

That's what the US got for refusing to work with de Gaulle until they could not do otherwise.

In North Africa, they hide the Torch invasion from him so he could not activate the Free French groups there that could have helped the allied landing and convince the Vichy units not to fight.

[BlackRain]

Oh really? 'Most theaters?'

Then you should be able to name just one.

How about I name just a few of the dozens. The Vichy did not exist in a vacuum. They were made up and support by the French citizens.

Let us recount the many battles between the French forces and the Allies prior to the D-Day invasion. Please note the French Armée d'Afrique did not begin to alter their alliance with Nazi Germany until the invasions of Operation TORCH.

French forces capitulated to the Nazis in June of 1940. Provisions of the armistice included the surrender of all Jews living in France to the Germans. The French government also agreed to stop members of its armed forces from leaving the country and instructed its citizens not to fight against the Germans. Finally, France had to pay the occupation costs of the German troops.

1) June 11, 1940: French Navy Admiral Darlan promises Churchill that the French Navy won't fall to the Germans.Darlan did not follow through on his pledge to sail the French Fleet to British ports. British units are force to cajole, coerce, or attack and eliminate the French Navy all over Europe and North Africa.

Admiral Darlan told the US ambassador, Admiral Leahy, in regard to American advice and assistance: "If and when the United States can bring to Marseilles three thousand tanks, five hundred thousand men and six thousand planes, be sure to let me know, for then you will be welcomed."

2) May 05, 1941: British blockade of Vichy France made complete. 15 May 1941 Roosevelt tells Vichy France to ‘choose between Germany and US’. The French chose Germany.

3) 8 June 1941: Operation Exporter: Invasion of the French Levant. British forces in the Middle East under Wavell invaded Syria and Lebanon from Palestine and Transjordan.

De Gaulle and the Allies anticipated a quick knockout followed by immediate rallying of Vichy forces to the Free French. It was not to be. Instead of a quick victory, the Australian, Indian, British, and Free French forces (two brigades of the latter, comprised mainly of Senegalese) slugged it out with the Vichy defenders (also containing a good percentage of Sengalese troops) and suffered several serious setbacks before the ceasefire on 12 July. By July most of the Free French forces (especially the Senegalese), having had enough of killing their countrymen, were of questionable value and regarded as unreliable by British headquarters.

The Allies sustained about 4700 casualties. The 1st Royal Fusiliers were cut off by a Vichy counterattack and the entire battalion was lost. The Aussies lost 1600 killed and wounded during the month of combat (as opposed to about 3000 killed and wounded during the much lengthier siege of Tobruk).

When the campaign ended, only some 5700 (out of about 26,000) Vichy troops elected to join de Gaulle. The remainder were evacuated by sea to French North Africa under Allied supervision.

4) The 6th Australian Infantry Division and the 7th Australian Infantry Division saw action against the French in Syria and Lebanon.

5) In Dakar (Senegal) that Free French and Vichy forces (Nazi sympathizers) battled each other.

6) General Juin failed to convince the French navy to surrender and they continued to battle the Allies. Many of the French troops in Africa chose to be demobilised and returned to occupied France. They refused to fight for the allies.

7) HMAS Australia battled the French Navy off of Dakar. Operation Menace at Dakar (http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/OperationMenace.September.html)

8) 3 July 1940: Operation Catapult - British Navy, code named Force H (Somerville), launch an attack on the French fleet stationed at Mers-el-Kebir near Oran in Algeria, sinking the battleship Bretagne and heavily damaging the battleship Provence and the battlecruiser Dunkerque. 1,300 French sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. Some 59 other French warships that had sought refuge at Plymouth and Portsmouth are seized by the Royal Navy, but only after overcoming armed French resistance in some cases. The British Auxiliary AA ship Foyle Bank is sunk in German air attacks on the docks at Portland, Dorset.


9) 5 July 1940: In retaliation for the British action at Mers-el-Kebir, French warships based at Dakar capture 3 British merchant ships, while French aircraft stationed in Morocco attack British shipping off Gibraltar. The British destroyer Whirlwind is sunk by U-34 off Land’s End.


10) 7 July 1940 : A French naval squadron that has sought refuge at Alexandria is disarmed and interned by the British Navy.

11) 8 July 1940 : Swordfish aircraft damage the French battleship Richelieu at Dakar after the French reject demilitarisation proposals.


12) The Japanese occupy French Indo-China with the consent of the French Government 24 July 1941. Japan agreed that Vichy retained sovereignty over the colony. Japan took possession of naval facilities at Camranh Bay and Saigon. Without those air and naval bases, Japanese military operations aimed at Malaya, Singapore, and the Netherlands East Indies would have proved extremely difficult.


13) British battle French forces in Madagascar during Operation 'Ironclad' May 8, 1942. French don't surrender until November 1942.

14) USS Suwannee (CVE-27) battles French navy in November 1942 during TORCH.

The Famous General Giraud:

Before General Giraud was smuggled out of the south of France by H.M. Submarine SERAPH, (commanded by U.S, Navy Captain Wright as the General would not co-operate with the British), a political leaflet intended for his signature had been prepared to be dropped over French territory, but he refused to sign. His refusal - even though he was a pro-Allies sympathiser - to sanction a call to all French forces in North Africa to fight alongside the Allies when they landed was based or his fundamental philosophy that he was a soldier, not a politician. He adamantly refused to approve the text which Eisenhower wanted him to broadcast and which would later be released in aerial leaflet form. The declaration and its intended use was scrapped.


15) 9 November 1942: France severs diplomatic relations with America.

16) 27 November 1942: The Vichy government ordered the commanding officers of every unit to surrender their hidden arms to the Axis powers. Collaborationist 'French Militia' hunts STO (Service du travail obligatoire) evaders.

17) A fortnight after Pearl Harbour de Gaulle launched a Free French coup against the tiny, Vichy controlled islands of St Pierre and Miquelon, just off the coast of Newfoundland. His unauthorised action infuriated the American government and Roosevelt began to see de Gaulle as an untrustworthy nuisance. The dispute deepened during the British and French invasion of French North and West Africa in late 1942, Operation 'Torch', from which Roosevelt insisted that de Gaulle be excluded. Roosevelt hoped that as soon as allied forces arrived on French African soil, the local Vichy commanders would switch from collaboration with the Nazis to collaboration with the British and French. However, this did not happen.


18) (French Forces of the Interior) only numbered around 200,000 men, the secret Vichy Milice police number at 35,000.

19) The Vichy government was popular with the citizens of France until 1944 when shortages of food, fuel, clothing, compulsory STO - turned public opinion against Vichy.

20) Churchill deployed MI5 to restrain de Gaulle's activities.


Conclusions: The Vichy government was popular with the French until the war was going badly in 1944. The French lied when they told Churchill that they would drive their ships to British harbours and not let them be used by the Axis. The French enabled the Japanese to use bases and raw materials from Indochina affecting the Pacific War effort. The French did battle and kill Allies until OPERATION TORCH and the D-Day invasions. When French forces were defeated by Allies, many chose to return home and refuse to fight for the Allies.

The Allies did not completely trust de Gualle. The expected Free French of the Interior provided a smaller than anticipated help to the allies in the war effort. The general population of France did not openly revolt against their Nazi occupiers until 1944. General Leclerc was given permission to enter Paris first. However, Leclerc's troops moved so slowly that US general George Patton said the French were, "dancing all the way to Paris." The German commander of Paris surrendered a full TWO days prior to Leclerc's forces arrival.


The Vichy years are painful even to this day in France. This is mainly due to the fact that so many Frenchmen collaborated with the Nazi occupiers from July of 1940 until the Liberation in 1944. As a result investigation into the past can reveal awful secrets: witness the humiliating discovery that France's Socialist President Francois Mitterand had collaborated with the Nazis in WWII.


Sorry! This history is what is taught in our schools.

Vichy Combat Medals (http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/F-Vichy.html)

The War Cross of the French Voluntary Legion
http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/Images/France/cdglegion1.jpg
For Frenchmen who fought on the Eastern Front, alongside the Nazi German forces, against the Russians. It was thus awarded to the members of the Légion Volontaire Française who, after the war's end, were liable for charges of treason while having taken up arms on the side of France's enemy, Nazi Germany.

[Laworkerbee]

Some suicide bombers are gay man who have been "outted" and shamed, and told they onnly way to cleanse themselves are to die as a matyr

[BlackRain]

About 120,000 French soldiers fought in Italy in 1943/1944 in the French CEFI (Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Italie) under the command of general Juin. The CEFI allowed to take Monte Cassino by piercing more south in the Monte Majo, a much more mountainous area but general Juin's Goumiers and their mule packs did it and broke the front where the Germans didn't expected them.


This was accomplished by men who were largely citizens of French colonies and not French nationals (or 'metropolitans'). http://chtx.free.fr/index2.php?page=goums

1e Division Française Libre (DFL) (1st Free French Division) or 1st Division Motorisee d’Infanterie (1st Motorized Infantry Div). The 1st DFL was formed in February 1943 out of a combination of the 1st and 2nd Free French Brigades. After a reorganization in August, it was designated as the 1e Division Motorisee d’Infanterie (1st Motorized Infantry Div) and then again as the 1e Division de Marche d’Infanterie, which is a general term use by French for a mixture of diverse units. This division arrived in Italy in April 1944 and continued to be called the Free French Division and the 1st Motorized Infantry Division.

2e Division d'Infanterie Maroccaine (DIM) (Moroccan Infantry Division) The 2nd DMI was formed on 1 May 1943 and was the first French formation on active service in Italy. It arrived in Italy in end November 1943.

3e Division d'Infanterie Algérienne (DIA) (Algerian Infantry Division). The 3rd DIA was stationed near the Tunisian border when the Allies landed in North Africa. They participated in the operations that led to the liberation of Tunisia. On 3 May 1943, the Division of Constantine was redesignated as the 3rd DIA or 3rd Algerian Infantry Division. After some amphibious training it embarked for Italy and relieved the US 45th Division.

4e Division Marocaine de Montagne (DMM) (Moroccan Mountain Division) The 4th DMM was originally formed as the 3e Division d’Infanterie Marocaine but changed to the 4th DMM. Later it was renamed simply the Division Marocaine de Montagne, but it was continued to be referred to by the 4th DMM. Units of this division participated in the liberation of Corsica in September & October 1944.

Other units
The 2nd & 6th RTM (Moroccan Infantry Rgts) were redesignated, after their heavy combat losses, as the 2nd & 6th Regiments Mixtes de Tirailleurs Marocains et Algerians. Later, in August 1944, they were renamed 1st Regiments de Tirailleurs Algeriens and 6th RTM.

Morroccan Tabors - Morroccan “goums” were initially formed for internal security in 1908. They were eventually absorbed into the military with a ‘goum” equivalent to a ‘company’. A “tabor” was the equivalent to a battalion and consisted of three goums. Three tabors formed a “group”. The tabors were never used on the battlefield as a group but were deployed as replacements for infantry units. “Goumiers” were the name of those serving in these units.


On 18th May, 1944, Monte Cassino was captured by French troops led by Juin AND by Polish Corps led by General Wladyslaw Anders.


http://mapage.noos.fr/4edmm/Images/goumier.jpg
This is what a "French" Goumier looked like in 1943.

[David Lehmann]

Vichy was backed by some French citizens but you seem to have a 0-1, black-white chipset. You don't need to emphasize on all Jews, I indicated you how many from the 350,000 Jews where deported from French territory ... not only by the Vichy militia but the Germans too. And this proportion is of 22%, lower than in many other countries if you have looked at the link I gave you. Did you red my post at least ?

The Vichy troops are soldiers, they defended themselves when being attacked in Syria, Torch, Madagascar. They went not on war against the allies, including other French people. They had to stay "neutral" to prevent the seizure of the not occupied zone in France ... what happened after Torch where only some elements in Morocco really resisted. And the French fleet scuttled itself to avoid falling in German hands.

Then you are comparing Vichy and the Vichy army with the volunteers on an individual basis (LVF, Waffen-SS) that has really nothing to do with the Vichy army. You cannot mix Vichy's army and the individual volunteers in the German army ... or you can blame many countries.

Collaboration Parties in general :

- Belgium
Germaansche SS Vlaanderen

- Denmark
Marinevægtere
Schalburg-Korps
Sommers Vagtkorps

- Vichy France
LVF
Milice Française

- Great Britain
Flags of the British Union of Fascists

- Greece
Ellinika Tagmata Asphaleias
Ethelontiki Chorophylaki
Poulos Verband - Ethelontiki Chorophylaki

- Netherlands
Germaansche SS en Nederland
Flags of the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging (NSB)
Flags of the Nationaal-Socialistische Nederlandsche Arbeiderspartij (NSNAP)

- New Zealand
Western Samoan Nazi Party

- Norway
Nasjonal Samling & Hird
Germanske SS Norge

- Serbia
Russkiy Okhranniy Korpus
Srpska Dobrovoljacki Korpus

- Slovenia
Gorenjsko Domobranstvo
Legija Smrti
Milizia Voluntare Anti-Communista (MVAC)
Slovenska Legija
Slovensko Domobranstvo
Slovenski Narodni Varnostni Zbor (SNVZ)
Vaške Straže

- Sweden
Fosterländska Fronten
Fosterländska Förbundet
Fria Gruppen
Frihetsvärnet
Sveriges Fascistiska Kamporganisation (SFKO)
Sveriges Nationalsocialistiska Folkparti (SNFP)



Foreign volunteers in combat units :

- Arab Nations
Deutsche-Arabische Bataillon Nr 845
Deutsche-Arabische Lehr Abteilung

- Albania
21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg (albanische Nr. 1)

- Belgium
27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Langemarck (flämische Nr. 1)
28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Wallonien
SS-Freiwilligen Legion Flandern
SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest
SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck
6. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck
5. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Wallonien
SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Flandern
SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien
Wallonisches-Infanterie Bataillon 373

- Bulgaria
Waffen-Grenadier Regiment der SS (bulgarisches Nr 1)

- Croatia
17. Air Force Company
369. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division
373. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division
392. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division
Croatian Air Force Legion
Croatian Air Force Training Wing
Croatian Anti-Aircraft Legions
Croatian Legion
Croatian Naval Legion
13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr. 1)
23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Kama (kroatische Nr. 2)

- Denmark
Danish volunteers in Waffen-SS
Freikorps Danmark (Frikorps Danmark)

- Estonia
Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade
3. Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade
Estnische SS-Legion
20. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr. 1)

- Finland
Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS

- France
Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment
Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade
Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF)
Légion Tricolore
Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr.1)
33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1)

- Great Britain
Britisches Freikorps (British Free Corps)
30 soldiers volunteered for this unit (including 3 Canadian, 3 Australians, 3 South Africans and 1 New Zealander)

- Hungary
22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Maria Theresa
1. Ungarische-SS-Schi-Bataillon
1. Ungarische SS-Sturmjäger Regiment
25. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hunyadi (ungarische Nr. 1)
26. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)
33. Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarnische Nr. 3)
Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 25
Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 26

- India
Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS
Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische) (Legion Freies Indien)

- Ireland
Irish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

- Italy
Italienische-Freiwilligen-Legion
Karstwehr-Bataillon
Karstwehr-Kompanie
1. Sturm-Brigade Italienische Freiwilligen-Legion
Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger) Brigade der SS
24. Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger-)Division der SS
Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (italienische Nr. 1)
29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr. 1)

- Latvia
Lettische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade
2. Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Brigade
Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Legion
15. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr. 1)
19. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettisches Nr. 2)

- Netherlands
Landstorm Nederland - See SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland
SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Brigade Landstorm Nederland
SS-Freiwilligen-Legion Niederlande
SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland
4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland
34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland
23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1)
SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest
SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Niederlande
SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland

- Norway
Freiwilligen Legion Norwegen (Den Norske Legion)
SS-Schijäger Bataillon Norwegen (Skijegerbataljon Norge)

- Romania
Romanian volunteers in the Waffen-SS
Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 1)
Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 2)

- Serbia and Montenegro
Polizei-Selbstschutz-Regiment Sandschak
Serbisches Freilligen Korps der SS

- Spain
Esquadron Azul
250. Infanterie-Division (División Azul)
Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101
Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 102

- Soviet Union
Armenische Legion
Azerbajdzansche Legion
Böhler-Brigade
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Division
Georgische Legion
162. (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division
600. (Russische) Infanterie-Division
650. (Russische) Infanterie-Division
Kalmücken-Kavallerie-Korps - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kalmücken-Legion - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kaminski Brigade - See RONA
Kaukasischer Waffen-Verband der SS
Nordkaukasische Legion
Osttürkischen Waffen-Verbände der SS
Russkaya Ovsoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armija (RONA)
Sonderverband Bergmann
Tataren-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS
Turkestanische Legion
Waffen-Gebirgs-Brigade der SS (tatarische Nr. 1)
Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (weißruthenische Nr. 1)
14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr. 1)
29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 1)
30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weissruthenische Nr. 1)
Waffen-Sturm-Brigade Kaminski - See RONA
Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA - See RONA
Wolgatatarische Legion

- Sweden
Swedish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

- USA
US volunteers in the Waffen-SS (5 people in May 1940)

Etc.

But I still not see what these WW2 events have to do with France today and why you use only this excuse to justify your constant anti-French crusade ... as for Al Manar you gave on purpose the idea that it was only received/broadcasted in France (beside the middle east etc.) just because you wanted to depict the "bad" French anti-semits. You are completely obsessed by that apparently.

David

[BlackRain]

Vichy was backed by some French citizens but you seem to have a 0-1, black-white chipset.

And the French fleet scuttled itself to avoid falling in German hands.


A) The Vichy Government was very popular among most French citizens until 1944.

B) If the Vichy French forces were pro-Allie, why did most refuse to join the Allies and return home?

C) The "French" did not scuttle their ships to avoid them falling to the Germans.

Churchill ordered Royal Navy 'Force H' under Vice-Admiral Sir James Somerville to secure for the Allies the naval squadron of Admiral Gensoul, currently at Mers-el-Kebir in Algeria, or sink them. After protracted negotiations, the French Admiral refused to join the British fleet, and, at 1656 hrs, the British ships opened fire. The French battleship Bretange was sunk, with the loss of 977 lives, and the Dunkerque was badly damaged with 200 lives lost. Provence ran aground; Mogador was badly damaged. Only the battleship Strasbourg escaped to Toulon.

French ships in British ports were seized on July 3rd, with some fighting on board the giant submarine Surcouf and the destroyer Mistral. Not surprisingly, the Vichy government in France were not happy, and on July 5th Petain broke off diplomatic relations with Britain. On the same day, as a reprisal for the Mers-el-Kebir incident, Vichy warships captured three British merchant ships.

Not suprisingly, on July 3, 1940; French Navy commander Godroy made a promise to British Force Commander Cunningham that if directly ordered to do so by the Royal Navy, He would scuttle the squadron under Cunningham's guns. He lied. He tried to escape and fought the British.

The French navy lied to Churchill in 1940. They did not follow through on their promise to turn their ships over to the allies. The French Navy used their ships in engagements against Allie forces and eventually were scuttled or destroyed.

[David Lehmann]

This was accomplished by men who were largely citizens of French colonies and not French nationals (or 'metropolitans'). http://chtx.free.fr/index2.php?page=goums

Oh you just discovered that ? They are part of the French army you know. Perhaps you want to list the "blacks" and the "whites" now ? They were many citizens from all the French colonies, like they were very numerous non-Europeans in the British/Commonwealth army ... what has that know to do with our story ? Do you think I am racist or something like that ? It doesn't disturb me. You now that all the French people today are not WASPs isn't it ?

Your drawing is nice, it is originally from a French book. Here is a photo of a Goumier in Garigliano in Italy in 1944 :
http://www.ecpad.fr/ecpa/include/DrawImage.asp?f=Terre%20208-4566.jpg

If you read the thread I wrote about the battle of La Horgne in 1940 you will see that these Spahis fought brilliantly. There is a plate dedicated to them in the town now.

Next to Lyon there is also a monument dedicated to the Senegalese (and others) troops.

The "infanterie coloniale" (colonial infantry) term covers in 1940 the today so-called "Marine Infantry" (an elite corps also called "Fusiliers Marins" or "Marsouins"). Most of these units had a very high amount of Europeans but could also include natives from the colonies.
• DIC = division d'infanterie coloniale
• RIC = régiment d'infanterie coloniale
• RICMS = régiment d'infanterie coloniale mixte sénégalais (includes one or more Senegalese battalion beside the European ones).

But there were several type of units which had a very high amount of natives like in the North African infantry units.
These units include Europeans, grossly all the officiers and many NCOs but they are formed with natives from the North African colonies : Goumiers (Moroccan), Tirailleurs (Senegalese, Tunisian, Moroccan and Algerian) and Zouaves. Goumiers are Moroccan soldiers with also many mule packs able to carry mortars and MGs (they will later allow to pierce the Gustav line in Italy). In 1942, a so-called Goum is the equivalent of a company of Goumiers : about 200 men with mule packs.
• DIA = division d'infanterie Africaine
• DINA = division d'infanterie Nord-Africaine
• DM = division marocaine
• RICM = régiment d'infanterie coloniale du Maroc
• RZ = régiment de Zouaves
• RTA = régiment de tirailleurs algeriens
• RTT = régiment de tirailleurs tunisiens
• RTM = régiment de tirailleurs marocains
• RTS = régiment de tirailleurs sénégalais
• RMM = régiment mixte malgache

Have a look on the units of the French 1st Army which took part in the landing in Provence in August 1944. All these men had already proved their valor in Italy between 1943 and 1944.

About 120,000 French soldiers fought in Italy in 1943/1944 in the CEFI (Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Italie) under the command of general Juin. The CEFI allowed to take Monte Cassino by piercing more south in the Monte Majo. If you read well I did not say they took themselves Monte Cassino, they forced the Germans to evacuate it. The Germans were forced to withdraw from the position on 17th May at the orders of Kesselring because the American generals finally allowed the French colonial corps to outflank the Cassino position. With this outflanking movement (something which was already proposed but rejected in January 1944) the position became untenable for the Germans and they had to withdraw. Monte Cassino could then be occupied after so many bloody fights of all the allies in front of it : US, Australian, Polish, French, British etc. The French expeditionary corps also opened the doors of Rome to the allied forces on 4th June 1944 after a series of battles : Garigliano, Pico.

During Anvil/Dragoon the French ground forces had a strength of 200,000 soldiers from the French 1st Army, including grossly 90,000 French Europeans and 110,000 natives from the French colonies (French department concerning Algeria) in North Africa.
The natives formed grossly 25% of the armored divisions, 30% of the artillery units, 40% of the engineer units and 66% of the infantry units. Natives represented 2% of the officers and 20% of the NCOs. In comparison, the 2nd French armored division who landed in Normandy had only one black soldier, this "whitening" was the result of an armored division completely based on the US model where blacks and whites were not mixed.

Concerning the involvment of natives, I would say that it applies also to WW1 and WW2 British (Imperial/Commonwealth) troops with natives ftom West Indies, Africa and the Far East.

in Italy in 1943-1944 for example, on the allied side you had people from :
USA
Great Britain
Canada
France
New Zealand
South Africa
Australia
Poland
India
Brazil
Italy
Greece
Morocco
Tunisia
Algeria
Senegal
Palestine (a so-called "Palestinian Brigade" composed of Jewish soldiers)

Also in the French 1st DFL :
Tahiti
New Caledonia
Lebanon
Syria
Antilles

And the so-called Senegalese included of course Senegalese but also people from Chad, Mali, Congo etc.

In the French Foreign Legion there were also Spanish and Czech people for example.

Regards,

David

[David Lehmann]

A) The Vichy Government was very popular among most French citizens until 1944.

You haven't read my post about the fall of France and the life under the Vichy government and the occupation in one of my previous post. You just repeat this statement that pleases you.


B) If the Vichy French forces were pro-Allie, why did most refuse to join the Allies and return home?

The Vichy forces were pro-Vichy and after all the attacks of Dakar, Mers El Kébir etc. there was not really a love for the British. Many officiers thought also that Vichy was the official government, seeing in De Gaulle just an officer. The men who did not fought before 1942-1943 came then all from the Vichy army in North-Africa to create the French expeditionnary force in Italy and the 1st French army beside the 2e DB, the SAS, the Commando-marines and all the French that were already fighting but in the British army for example.


C) The "French" did not scuttle their ships to avoid them falling to the Germans.

In Mers El Kebir the French vessels where stopped in the harbour while attacked. Why are you talking about that when I speak about the SCUTTLE of the French navy in TOULON in 1942 ?
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/bertrand.daubigny/MnHmPg.htm

But I still don't see why I have to "justify" some WW2 events ... is it still all that explains your blind hate against French people ?

David

[roland]

About the defeat: Not much shame there imho. In 1940 it was impossible to resist 100% of the German army, all fresh, with a new tactic. See the Russians had to retreat 5000 Km and could stop the Germans largely thanks to winter. But France is only 1000Km wide. We could have done much better for sure but easier to say now than at this time.
So no, the armistice is not a shame. Petain is, I agree. But Petain was a huge heroe of WWI. Was considered like a living god. How could we imagine he would became a traitor ? (Even there, calling him a traitor is too simple, he was ambiguous but well..)
Anyway, here how my grand father told me he considered the situation: we suffered our bigest defeat since the beginning of the hundred year war. We badly needed a rest, take time to regroup, reorganize and eventually resume the fight later. Most of the people thought it's going to be that way and some sign show they were probably right. But for that France needed to stay neutral for a while.
The trategy of De Gaulle was different and was the right one: resume the fight immediately from the Empire, with the help of the allies, well England at this time, thanks Churchill, a great man and a sincere friend of France
Guess who the neutralUSA supported ? even after the USA entered the war they tried to negociate with Vichy despite De Gaulle and Churchill warnings.

True, many french hated the English. Because of Mers el Kebir, because of the propaganda that, among other things, said that the English planes gave up the fight on the continent to concentrate on the English defense and also because they are our traditional enemy (burned Johan of Arc and steal us Quebec)
But be sure that hated was nothing compared to the pure hate the population felt againt the Germans as invaders.
The collaborators were a tiny minority of oportunists or simple mind that got caught by the heavy propaganda.
True, the huge majority didn't take part to any armed actions. They just tried to survive. But they hated the Germans and, if a lot wouldn't have helped jews, turned blind eyes when they saw some. Comon, there was some jews from Paris that lived at my parent's tiny village in the coutryside, there children used to go to school. Everybody knew they were jews.
The resistant were a tiny minority that was growing and growing that became at the end a sizeable force despite the heavy and pityless repression. At the end, 1/3 of France liberated herself.



They were made up and support by the French citizens.

Me and David explained you the situation in France when Petain took power and the disarray of the French people. Should be enough.



Let us recount the many battles between the French forces and the Allies prior to the D-Day invasion.

Wasn't an invasion. Was a liberation. Well the Americans tried to occupy France, put there own administration but that failed and they didn't insisted. Watever you think were allies and it's not a little frustrated like you that is going to change that.



Please note the French Armée d'Afrique did not begin to alter their alliance with Nazi Germany until the invasions of Operation TORCH.

Vichy wasn't a German allies until the Germans broke the armistice treaty in 1942. Vichy was neutral and let's admit, the resistance against the Americans in north Africa was quite weak no ?



1) June 11, 1940: French Navy Admiral Darlan promises Churchill that the French Navy won't fall to the Germans.Darlan did not follow through on his pledge to sail the French Fleet to British ports.

Admiral Darlan respected his words. The Germans never took the French fleet. Saying that Darlan promised that the French fleet would go to British port is simply a lie.
At the end, Vichy scuttled the French fleet in Toulon. November 27, 1942.
see http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/toulon.htm
That is better than letting the Germans take the fleet but still a pity as the fleet should have fled too North Africa or Dakar. Admiral de Laborde was accused of traison for that.



2) May 05, 1941: British blockade of Vichy France made complete. 15 May 1941 Roosevelt tells Vichy France to ‘choose between Germany and US’. The French chose Germany.

Bullsh!t.



5) In Dakar (Senegal) that Free French and Vichy forces (Nazi sympathizers) battled each other.

man I hate this Vichy regime. But the Vichy regilme was NOT a Nazi sympathized at this time. They wanted to be neutral. got it ?



6) General Juin failed to convince the French navy to surrender and they continued to battle the Allies.

Lie.
Juin stayed loyal to Petain until the Germans broked the armistice treaty in November 27, 1942.


Many of the French troops in Africa chose to be demobilised and returned to occupied France. They refused to fight for the allies.

Lie.
After the liberation of north Africa and the Germans broke the armistice treaty in November 27, 1942, the colonial army started to understand what was the real Vichy regime nature and started to understand what was the right side. Note that the army stayed under a formal French Giraud/De Gaulle command.



8) 3 July 1940: Operation Catapult - British Navy, code named Force H (Somerville), launch an attack on the French fleet stationed at Mers-el-Kebir near Oran in Algeria, sinking the battleship Bretagne and heavily damaging the battleship Provence and the battlecruiser Dunkerque. 1,300 French sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. Some 59 other French warships that had sought refuge at Plymouth and Portsmouth are seized by the Royal Navy, but only after overcoming armed French resistance in some cases. The British Auxiliary AA ship Foyle Bank is sunk in German air attacks on the docks at Portland, Dorset.

We were at the north Africa liberation. Back to 1940 ? that's confusing. Or is it on purpose ? anyway, Mers-el-Kebir wasn't the smartest Churchill's move a did a lot to confuse some sincere french soldier that didn't accepted the defeat.

Lots of Bullsh!t ! are you honest ? Are you just desinformed or are you a b@stard ?
Ok let's continue with some points, lot of work to do with you:



15) 9 November 1942: France severs diplomatic relations with America.

you mean Vichy France ? lol.



16) 27 November 1942: The Vichy government ordered the commanding officers of every unit to surrender their hidden arms to the Axis powers. Collaborationist 'French Militia' hunts STO (Service du travail obligatoire) evaders.


See ? they were hidding arms. After 27 November 1942, Vichy was even more a nazi puppet, the German had invaded the "free France" in the south.



17) A fortnight after Pearl Harbour de Gaulle launched a Free French coup against the tiny, Vichy controlled islands of St Pierre and Miquelon, just off the coast of Newfoundland. His unauthorised action infuriated the American government and Roosevelt began to see de Gaulle as an untrustworthy nuisance.


WHAT ????? This one is good ! lol !
A ... Free ... French ... coup ...against ... St Pierre & Miquelon ??
but St Pierre & Miquelon is French and you dare to say that De Gaulle should have asked the autorisation to fire a traitor and racist regime ??? you're nuts man as was Roosevelt. Lets say that we love the Americans but Roosevelt ... well he wasn't always right and concerning De Gaulle and the free French he was always wrong.

enough for now, hope this help

roland

[David Lehmann]

About your story of Vichy hiding Japanese submarines :


Japanese Submarines at Madagascar and the Mozambique Channel

Background

Although between December 1941 and January 1942 Axis negotiations set longitude 70 degrees east as the boundary between German and Japanese naval operations in the Indian Ocean, exceptions were to be allowed as circumstances warranted. On 14 March Admiral Raeder informed Hitler -- not altogether accurately -- that Japan planned to occupy Ceylon and then establish bases on Madagascar. For that latter island the Japanese would require approval from their German allies (for Madagascar lay on the German side of the boundary line) and from Vichy (who controlled and defended the colony). Hitler, seldom interested in naval affairs, was unenthusiastic and did not expect Vichy to permit Japan to establish bases on the island.

Despite Hitler's lack of interest there were others who took more notice of such strategic possibilities.

Churchill telegraphed to Roosevelt: "A Japanese air, submarine, and/or cruiser base at Diego Suarez [on the northern tip of Madagascar, halfway between Cape Town and Colombo] would paralyse our whole convoy route both to the Middle East and to the Far East...."

Field Marshal Smuts cabled Churchill that Madagascar is "...the key to the safety of the Indian Ocean" and feared that the Japanese might use bases on the island in an advance against the African mainland in the same manner that they had recently used bases in Indo-China in their advance against Burma, Malaya, Singapore, British Borneo, and the Netherlands East Indies.

De Gaulle wished to make a Free French landing on Madagascar, but his failure at Dakar meant that his plans found no support.

Meanwhile, on 27 March the German naval staff requested that the IJN launch operations against Allied convoys in the Indian Ocean. On 8 April the Japanese formally agreed to dispatch submarines to the east coast of Africa.

Japanese forces

The 1st Division of the 8th Submarine Flotilla was withdrawn from its base at Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands and arrived at Penang in northwestern Malaya at the end of April 1942.

Commanded by Rear Admiral Ishizaki, the division was made up of fleet submarines I-10, I-16, I-18, I-20, and I-30. Three carried one midget sub apiece and two carried one aircraft apiece; each was armed with a 5.5" gun. Normal cruising range was 14,000 miles.

The submarines were supported by a pair of auxiliary cruisers/supply ships -- Aikoku Maru and Hokoku Maru -- armed with guns and torpedoes.

To Diego Suarez

I-30 was first to depart Penang (20 April), sending her scout plane over Aden's harbor on 7 May and then working southward with further reconnaissance at Djibouti, Mombasa, Dar-es-Salaam, and Zanzibar. The main body took a more southerly course toward Durban where it undertook reconnaissance. As many as 40 Allied cargo ships lay in Durban roadstead, but the undetected Japanese submarines, seeking warships, were not yet ready to show their hand, and no attacks were launched.

Instead, the subs concentrated off Diego Suarez and one of their planes discovered the British battleship Ramillies berthed there on 29 May. It was at the beginning of the month that Allied forces had finally landed on Madagascar and occupied the northern portion of the island, and the facilities of Diego Suarez now serviced Allied vessels. Although the scoutplane was spotted -- and Ramillies left its berth -- the Japanese flight was believed to be by a Vichy airplane from an airfield down-island.

On the night of the 29th I-16, I-18, and I-20 were ordered to launch their midget subs. The craft from I-18 was not successfully launched due to engine trouble, but at least one of the others penetrated the harbor. At 2025 on 30 May Ramillies was hit by a torpedo and, while British corvettes dropped depth charges, at 2120 the tanker British Loyalty took at least one torpedo and sank.

The I-20's midget sub then grounded on a reef while attempting to retire from the harbor. On 2 June her two-man crew was shot and killed by an Allied patrol near Amponkarana Bay and their documents recovered. The wrecked midget was later sighted by British air reconnaissance.

Prior to discovering the true agent of the attack, Allied planes flew a retaliatory raid against the airfield at Tananarive and claimed to have destroyed three Vichy aircraft.

Ramillies emerged from Diego Suarez on 9 June and limped to Durban for repairs.

The Mozambique Channel

Allied vessels rounding the Cape of Good Hope and heading northward along the eastern coast of Africa toward the Middle East passed through the Mozambique channel between Madagascar and the African mainland. By the summer of 1942 this shipping remained almost invariably without escort and without air cover, and it was to prove a happy hunting ground for Ishizaki's boats.

The two supply ships entered the fray by sinking the Elysia 370 miles ENE of Durban on 5 June. On the same date the subs went into action in the Mozambique channel and sank three Allied merchantmen. Two more were accounted for the following day and an additional five vessels went down in the next few days.

By 10 June, the local Allied naval commander ordered convoys and fast unescorted shipping to detour to the east of Madagascar to avoid the Mozambique channel. The only advice he could give to other shipping was to hug the shoreline.

Shortly thereafter the Japanese submarines sailed to rendezvous with their supply ships southeast of Madagascar for refueling and replenishing. By the end of the month they were back in the channel and had resumed operations against Allied shipping: one vessel sunk on each of the last three days of the month, and three on the first day of July 1942.

In mid-July the Japanese force, having damaged a British battleship and accounted for some 25 ships totaling over 120,000 tons, began withdrawing from African shores and returned to Penang in August. Admiral Ishizaki suffered no loss other than his midget sub at Diego Suarez.

Finally

While it is perhaps unlikely that Japan would have been granted bases on Vichy Madagascar (and in any event the bases would probably have proved impossible to sustain), it is interesting to speculate on the effect of a permanent Japanese air and naval presence athwart -- with the Mediterranean virtually closed -- the only convoy route from the UK to British forces in the Middle East.

Likewise, how much more damage could Ishizaki have done if, instead of hunting Allied warships, at the end of May he had charged into the unsuspecting Allied shipping anchored off Durban?

In the final analysis, though, damage done to Allied interests in this part of the world was of much more immediate benefit to Germany than Japan, and the IJN -- already beginning to feel pressure in the Pacific -- was not willing to devote its precious resources to going to the assistance of its Axis partner.

Saga of I-30

One submarine of the Japanese division did not return to Penang at this time. I-30 had, in fact, not returned to the Mozambique channel with its sister ships at the end of June. Instead, it was dispatched on a longer journey in a different direction. I-30 continued westward, around the Cape of Good Hope, then north through the Atlantic and sailed to France, reaching Lorient on 2 August-- the first Japanese submarine to make the voyage during World War II. A week later she began her long journey back to the Far East but on 13 October 1942, after arriving safely back at Penang, I-30 hit a British mine while en route to Singapore and was lost with thirteen of her hundred-man crew.

Sources

Boyd, Carl and Akihiko Yoshida. THE JAPANESE SUBMARINE FORCE AND WORLD WAR II. Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 1995.

Rohwer, Jurgen. AXIS SUBMARINE SUCCESSES, 1939-1945. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1983.

Rohwer, Jurgen and H. Hummelchen. CHRONOLOGY OF THE WAR AT SEA, 1939-1945. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1992.

Roskill, S. W. THE WAR AT SEA, volume II: THE PERIOD OF BALANCE. London: HMSO, 1956.

Turner, Gordon-Cumming, and Betzler. WAR IN THE SOUTHERN OCEANS, 1939-45. Cape Town: Oxford University Press, 1961.

[David Lehmann]

Vichy and Pearl Harbor

During the Sino-Japanese War, Japan complained to the French government about the ongoing shipment of oil, trucks, and war materiel from the port of Haiphong in French Indochina by railroad to Kunming in China to help support Chiang Kai-shek's regime. Since technically no state of war existed between Japan and China, France refused to halt shipments. In the winter of 1939/1940, the Japanese military showed its displeasure by bombing the rail line.

By June 1940, when the Wehrmacht's blitzkrieg overran France, approximately 10,000 tons of war goods, most from the US, were being shipped each month from Haiphong into China, and a backlog of 125,000 tons had accumulated in the port.

As metropolitan France collapsed, on 19 June 1940 the Japanese government presented the French ambassador in Tokyo with its demand to cease shipment of all war materiel to China and to accept a Japanese control commission in Indochina to regulate the agreement. Simultaneously, Japanese troops demonstrated on the Chinese border with Indochina and IJN warships sailed into the Gulf of Tonkin. The French government was given 48 hours to reply to the demands. At the same time, the British government received demands to close the Burma road supply route into China.

General Catroux, Governor-General of Indochina, acting on his own initiative due to the confusion reigning in France, sought US support, but such support was not forthcoming. Given the defeat of France, the impossibly weak military position of the colony, and the inability to gain support from abroad, the Japanese demands were met. Similarly, Britain closed the Burma road. General Catroux, who had acted strenuously to resist Japanese pressure, was dismissed. (He rallied to the Free French and later became High Commissioner to the Middle East and then Governor-General of Algeria.)

On 1 August 1940 the Japanese government presented Vichy with further demands : "...right of transit for Japanese forces through Indochina; construction of airfields in the colony; and agreement in principle to an economic arrangement which would bind Indochina securely to the Japanese sphere." Again Vichy turned to the US for support; again it was not forthcoming. Nevertheless, General Weygand, Vichy Minister of Defense, initially favoured military resistance, but the Cabinet eventually concluded that resistance would be doomed to failure and Indochina would be permanently lost. On 29 August a preliminary political agreement recognizing Japanese interests in the area was signed. Next day the Japanese Army presented additional military demands which, if implemented, would amount to virtual occupation.

At this point Japanese forces in China threatened to advance across the border on their own initiative. Chiang Kai-shek in turn threatened to attack French Indochina if it became a Japanese base. At the same time, Siam pressed its claims for Indo-Chinese territory.

Both Britain and the US notified Tokyo of their opposition to military occupation of Indochina, but neither power was prepared to defend the colony or to send aircraft and other weapons.

The final agreement, signed 22 September 1940, "...made available for the Japanese three airfields in Tonkin (as against six originally called for); granted permission for the stationing of 6000 Japanese troops (as against 25,000 or 32,000 first demanded); agreed to permit eventual passage of Japanese forces (never to exceed more than 25,000 men) through Tonkin to Yunnan..." and, subject to further negotiation, allowed a Japanese division to evacuate China via Tonkin. Although these concessions were not insignificant, they did not include the critical facilities of southern Indochina.

Before negotiation on the final point commenced, the Japanese division in question crossed the border from China. The Vichy army resisted but could not stop the Japanese advance. Eventually frantic diplomatic efforts halted the combat and Japanese movement pending final negotiation.

Despite this show of arms and resolve by the local French administration, the US continued to rule against selling aircraft, weapons, or supplies for Indochina.

In December 1940 and January 1941 Siam and Vichy Indo-Chinese forces fought a brief war over their border along the Mekong. Siam gained the upper hand on the ground, but "its fleet was destroyed" (three ships were sunk) by the Vichy squadron. Japan, unwilling to tolerate such disturbances—even those partly Japanese inspired—in such a sensitive area, mediated a settlement which, by no coincidence, strengthened its own position in southeast Asia.

The final act was played out in the summer of 1941. On 12 July of that year, the Japanese ambassador in Vichy presented the latest demands: "permission to dispatch the 'necessary' land, sea, and air forces to southern Indochina; occupation of eight air and two naval bases in the same region; recognition of freedom of movement for Japanese forces in southern Indochina; withdrawal of French garrisons from the places to be occupied by the Japanese."

Although the US strongly advised Vichy not to acquiesce, for the third time there was no hope of military support. Neither Britain (which had just seized the Vichy Levant by force of arms) nor the US was willing even to send warships to Indo-Chinese waters.

(It was around this time that Admiral Darlan told the US ambassador, Admiral Leahy, in regard to American advice and assistance: "If and when the United States can bring to Marseilles three thousand tanks, five hundred thousand men and six thousand planes, be sure to let me know, for then you will be welcomed.")

On 21 July the preliminary agreement was, inevitably, signed. On the 23rd local arrangements were settled in Hanoi. On 29 July 1941 the final protocols were exchanged. In its one concession, Japan agreed that Vichy retained sovereignty over the colony.

In addition to eight airfields in southern Indochina (notably those around Saigon which put Singapore within range of Japanese land-based warplanes), Japan took possession of naval facilities at Camranh Bay and Saigon. Troops were already arriving in Saigon on 28 July, and some 50,000 men were soon dispatched.

Without those air and naval bases, Japanese military operations aimed at Malaya, Singapore, and the Netherlands East Indies would have proved extremely difficult. The gaining of the bases, though, ensured the need of them.

On 26 July 1941, recognizing the critical nature of Japan's diplomatic victory in Indochina but perhaps not realizing that at this point possession of the new bases would make feasible military ventures which previously had been only theory, President Roosevelt issued an executive order freezing all Japanese funds and assets in the United States. The same day all British and Dominion trade treaties with Japan were terminated, as, two days later, was the Dutch-Japanese agreement. These actions brought Japanese international trade almost to a standstill, an impossible position for an industrialized nation completely dependent on imported raw materials. In particular, Japan produced only 10% of its petroleum requirements, and foreign sources were suddenly dry.

Under these circumstances the Japanese government concluded that, before stockpiles of strategic materials were consumed, it must finally reach a suitable accord with the US, or initiate war. In this case Japanese diplomacy failed, and on 8 December 1941 (7 December in the United States), Japanese forces from bases in southern Indochina invaded Siam and Malaya, and eventually overran Singapore, Burma, British Borneo, and the Netherlands East Indies. Meanwhile, to protect its exposed flank, Japanese carrier-based aircraft proceeded to methodically demolish the American Pacific Fleet at anchor in Pearl Harbor.



Sources

Aldrich, Richard J. THE KEY TO THE SOUTH: BRITAIN, THE UNITED STATES, AND THAILAND DURING THE APPROACH OF THE PACIFIC WAR, 1929-1942. Kuala Lumpur: Oxford University Press, 1993.

de Gaulle, Charles. THE COMPLETE WAR MEMOIRS OF CHARLES DE GAULLE, 1940-1946. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1964.

Hammer, Ellen J. THE STRUGGLE FOR INDOCHINA, 1940-1955. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1966.

Kirby, Major-General S. Woodburn, et al. THE WAR AGAINST JAPAN, volume 1. London: HMSO, 1957.

Langer, William L. and S. Everett Gleason. THE CHALLENGE TO ISOLATION, 1937-1940. New York: Harper Brothers, 1952.

Langer, William L. and S. Everett Gleason. THE UNDECLARED WAR, 1940-1941. New York: Harper Brothers, 1953.

Marr, David G. VIETNAM 1945: THE QUEST FOR POWER. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1995.

Spector, Ronald H. ADVICE AND SUPPORT: THE EARLY YEARS OF THE U.S. ARMY IN VIETNAM, 1941-1960. New York: The Free Press, 1985.

Tansill, Charles Callan. BACK DOOR TO WAR: THE ROOSEVELT FOREIGN POLICY, 1933-1941. Chicago: Regnery, 1952.




VICHY INDOCHINA VERSUS JAPAN, 1940

Background

The September 1940 accords signed by Japan and Vichy Indochina which granted various basing and transit rights also limited to 6000 the number of Japanese troops which could be stationed in Indochina, and set an overall cap of 25,000 on the total number of troops that, including basing and transit, could be in the colony at any given time. In addition, the final article of the agreement barred all Japanese land, air, and naval forces from Indo-Chinese territory except as explicitly authorized in the preceding articles. Exceptions to these agreements would require Vichy approval.

Within hours of the accords being signed, the Japanese 5th Infantry Division of the Army of Canton, withdrawing from China, crossed the border at three points in the vicinity of the rail junction at Lang Son which lies some 16 kilometres inside Indochina. This movement contravened the new accords so that Vichy authorities in Hanoi faced an immediate crisis.

The Japanese division under General Nakamura consisted of three regiments with a full complement of artillery as well as light and medium tanks. In all, Nakamura's force amounted to roughly 30,000 men.

On the Vichy side, the Lang Son sector, under the command of General Mennerat of the 2nd Brigade, included five battalions of infantry, a group of tanks, a group of 75's and a battery of 155's; all told, about 5000 troops representing elements of 3rd Regiment Tirailleurs Tonkinois, 9th Regiment d'Infanterie Coloniale, and 5th Regiment Etrangere d'Infanterie.

The Attack at Lang Son

The Japanese attack began at 2200 on 22 September 1940. The northern column took Bi Nhi on the border and advanced up the road to the north toward That Khe (defended by one company), away from the main battle. The main effort came from the central column which crossed the border at Nam Quam, pushed aside two companies of II/3rd RTT, and then turned south at Dong Dang along the road and railway. The southern column rolled through the platoon holding Chima and attacked Loc Binh; there the bulk of a company of II/3rd RTT withdrew southward to cover Na Dzuong (reinforced there by elements of 9th RIC) while the Japanese pushed northward to support the central column's drive on Lang Son and cut the railroad to Hanoi. Thus Lang Son was threatened by the southern column and by the central column moving down from the north.

As the Japanese columns advanced on 23 September, Vichy commanders desperately attempted to impose control on the confused situation. Reserves were dispatched to the sector, but by afternoon enemy spearheads were already approaching Lang Son from the north. The airstrip there was bombed out in the afternoon.

The next day, IV/3rd RTT, brought up from its frontier posts in the night, attempted to counterattack in the direction of Dong Dang but was forestalled by a Japanese thrust from that town toward Khanh Khe conducted by part of the central column. Most of the native troops of the Vichy battalion melted away, leaving only the French elements.

Meanwhile, the central and southern Japanese columns continued to tighten their hold on Lang Son. The local Vichy commander contemplated withdrawal while a route remained open, but was ordered by General Martin in Hanoi to hold the town. South of the Song Ky Kong, the Japanese column took advantage of confusion among the defenders to push to the edge of town. North of the river in Ky Lua, the Japanese opened their 25 September assault against I/3rd RTT with heavy artillery preparation at 0530. Three hours later General Mennerat notified Hanoi that Lang Son, isolated and untenable without air and artillery support, must surrender. At 1040 General Martin granted permission and, following local negotiations, the bulk of I/3rd RTT and II/5th REI, remnants of I/9th RIC, and brigade HQ fell into Japanese hands.

The capture of Lang Son on the 25th released the bulk of 5th Division and opened the way south to Hanoi. Still in position, though, were Vichy defenders at That Khe in the north, Na Dzuong in the south, and -- in the critical sector -- fresh battalions barring the route from Lang Son at Lang Giai and Lang Nac.

Landings at Haiphong

During the action on the Chinese border, Japanese warships and transports lay off the coast in the Gulf of Tonkin. The garrison they carried, allowed under the accords, was denied permission to disembark. General Nishihara, having just signed those accords, departed Haiphong aboard DD Nenohi on the night of 23-24 September and joined the task force. In the morning Japanese aircraft began flights for reconnaissance and intimidation.

A Vichy envoy boarded CL Sendai to negotiate, but in the meantime shore defenses remained under orders to open fire against any attempt to force a landing. A tense standoff ensued.

At 0330 on 26 September Japanese forces came ashore across the beaches at Dong Tac, south of Haiphong, and immediately set out for the port city. A second landing put tanks ashore and at 0630 Haiphong was bombed, killing 37 civilians. By 1300, led by a dozen tanks, the Japanese force of some 4500 troops stood at the entrance to Haiphong.

Denouement

These skirmishes came as a result of the aggressive attitude taken by the Japanese Army of Canton which appears to have been somewhat unconcerned about such diplomatic niceties as accords, agreements, and protocols. On 23 September Vichy had hurriedly approached the government in Tokyo to protest this breach of the agreements so recently concluded. Two days later Emperor Hiro Hito ordered an end to hostilities, and by the evening of 26 September fighting had died down.

General Nishihara returned to Haiphong on the 29th but was soon replaced as head of the Japanese mission by General Sumita who seems to have been more able to satisfy Vichy. By the middle of October all POWs had been exchanged except 200 German legionnaires of 5th REI who remained in Japanese custody. Japan took possession of airfields at Gia Lam, Lao Kay, and Phu Lang Thuong and stationed 900 troops in the port of Haiphong and a further 600 in Hanoi. Vichy forces reoccupied Lang Son, and in the course of October and November the 30,000 troops of Japanese 5th Division completed their evacuation from China and embarked at Haiphong.

That same 5th Division, victors of Lang Son, went on to participate in the conquest of Malaya and Singapore in 1941-42.



Sources

Auphan, Paul and Jacques Mordal. THE FRENCH NAVY IN WORLD WAR II. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1959.

Hesse d'Alzon, Claude. LA PRESENCE MILITAIRE FRANCAISE EN INDOCHINE (1940-1945). Chateau de Vincennes: Publications du Service Historique de l'Armee de Terre, 1985.

Kirby, S. Woodburn. THE WAR AGAINST JAPAN, volume 1: THE LOSS OF SINGAPORE. London: HMSO, 1957.

[BlackRain]

WHAT ????? This one is good ! lol !
A ... Free ... French ... coup ...against ... St Pierre & Miquelon ??
but St Pierre & Miquelon is French and you dare to say that De Gaulle should have asked the autorisation to fire a traitor and racist regime ??? you're nuts man as was Roosevelt. Lets say that we love the Americans but Roosevelt ... well he wasn't always right and concerning De Gaulle and the free French he was always wrong.

enough for now, hope this help

roland

You don't know much about your own history. Sad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/allies_at_war_03.shtml

[BlackRain]

2) May 05, 1941: British blockade of Vichy France made complete. 15 May 1941 Roosevelt tells Vichy France to ‘choose between Germany and US’. The French chose Germany.

Bullsh!t.

You refuse to believe that France Volutarily supported the Nazi's. The French government was not neutral like you want to believe.

15 May 1941: President Roosevelt rebuked France for collaboration amounting to an alliance.


"The people of the United States can hardly believe that the present Government of France could be brought to lend itself to a plan of voluntary alliance, implied or otherwise, which would apparently deliver up France and its colonial empire, including French African colonies and their Atlantic coasts, with the menace which that involves to the peace and safety of the Western Hemisphere."

Source: Times, May 16, 1941, pp. 1, 4.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/410515awp.html

[BlackRain]

1) June 11, 1940: French Navy Admiral Darlan promises Churchill that the French Navy won't fall to the Germans.Darlan did not follow through on his pledge to sail the French Fleet to British ports.

Admiral Darlan respected his words. The Germans never took the French fleet. Saying that Darlan promised that the French fleet would go to British port is simply a lie.



In March of 1940 the French and British had concluded an agreement that neither would ever sign a separate peace treaty with the Nazis. Three months later Paris had fallen and a beleaguered Premier Paul Reynaud petitioned Churchill to be released from the obligation. Churchill responded in typical fashion. The French would be permitted to explore conditions for an armistice but only on condition that the French fleet set sail for British ports. It was the fourth largest fleet in the world and in German hands could wreak havoc on Allied shipping

On June 11, 1940, Churchill flies to France where he meets with the French Supreme War Council in Briare. French Marine Minister Admiral Darlan had given Churchill his word that the French fleet would never be allowed to fall into the hands of the Nazis.

Read more about the French refusal to honor this promise: http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/merselkebir.aspx

[roland]

WHAT ????? This one is good ! lol !
A ... Free ... French ... coup ...against ... St Pierre & Miquelon ??
but St Pierre & Miquelon is French and you dare to say that De Gaulle should have asked the autorisation to fire a traitor and racist regime ??? you're nuts man as was Roosevelt. Lets say that we love the Americans but Roosevelt ... well he wasn't always right and concerning De Gaulle and the free French he was always wrong.

enough for now, hope this help

roland

You don't know much about your own history. Sad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/allies_at_war_03.shtml

Ok I saw your anglo link. Biased but not too much, workable. The trouble is that my point remain valid: as if France needed the US autorisation to fire a traitor government from a FRENCH territory ! man you're thick. Do you have something else ?
Your link stated explecitely that the realation between De Gaule and Roosevelt were bad from the beginning and that Roosevelt tried to deal with Vichy. Do you think Roosevelt was right there ? do you ?

[Moledet]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

[roland]

You refuse to believe that France Volutarily supported the Nazi's.

Yeah, with the English we declared war against Nazi Germany after it attacked Poland, they crushed us, killed around 80,000 of our soldier in one month, they invaded us, humiliated us, that made them so nice that we changed our mind and started to love them :cantbeli:



The French government was not neutral like you want to believe.

Before November 1942 and the German broked the armistice treaty and the Americans liberated north Africa, the Vichy regime tried to stay as neutral as possible. That's a fact.



15 May 1941: President Roosevelt rebuked France for collaboration amounting to an alliance.


"The people of the United States can hardly believe that the present Government of France could be brought to lend itself to a plan of voluntary alliance, implied or otherwise, which would apparently deliver up France and its colonial empire, including French African colonies and their Atlantic coasts, with the menace which that involves to the peace and safety of the Western Hemisphere."



That's all the problem. Roosevelt waited may 1941 before realizing there was nothing for the allies in the Vichy government.(present Government of France)
In fact Roosevelt continued to deal with Vichy much longer.

are you understanding
a) well
b) not everything but roland and david have some point
c) not at all
? :|

[roland]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

There is not much shame at that imho. That was stupid but not real shame no ?
And it's easier to say now than at this time.
Look at Russia: they saw how the German fought in Poland and in France and had the time to adapt. Despite that, when the furious Germans attacked, they had to retreat 5000 Km and could stop the Germans in front of Moscow with great help of winter.
Those Germans were damned hard to beat at this time you know.

[S'13]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

What's is funny is that the Maginot Line was built along the border between France and Germany. In the end the Germans invaded via Belgium...

[David Lehmann]

So le'ts talk about the Maginot line if you want ... I have no problem with that.

THE MAGINOT LINE

After WW1 two committees were appointed :
• The CDF (Commission pour la Défense aux Frontières = commission for the defence of the borders) decided the locations of : artillery and infantry bunkers, referred to as 'ouvrages' (defence works), of casemates (big blockhouses), interval blockhouses, shelter bunkers and observatories, and worked on their developments, general layout and initial costs.
• The CORF (Commision d'Organisation des Régions Fortifiées = commission for the organization of the fortified areas) coordinated such data and was in charge of building the fortifications.

Between 1927 and 1935, the CORF built the main defence works of the Maginot Line :
• 46 artillery defence works (23 in the north-east and 23 in the south-east)
• 62 infantry defence works (35 in the north-east and 27 in the south-east)
• 340 big blockhouses/casemates and bunkers
• 17 observation bunkers
• 89 shelter bunkers
• floodable areas, barracks, underground telephone networks, dedicated roads and railroads etc.

After 1935, the CORF had ended its mission. The fortified areas are in charge of the generals in command of theses sectors. Between 1935 and 1940 thousands of smaller and less protected positions were built, mainly small blockhouses in the intervals between the bigger defence works. They were erected by regular troops and reservists until the battle broke out. They were referred to as "MOM", which stands for army craft (main d'oeuvre militaire) and "STG" (service technique du genie) if built by pioneers. The 7.PzD for example which is often said as having crossed the Maginot Line encountered in fact only some of the lighter extensions of the Maginot Line, with smaller and lesser protected/armored bunkers.

The fortifications that belong to the Maginot Line proper, surrendered only when the mobile interval troops had retreated, when they were deprived of artillery support and when the Germans had surrounded them. The casemates on the Rhine and the blockhouses in the Vosges were actually given up when their crews had gone in for belated hopeless tasks. Whenever such bunkers were supported by artillery they resisted to the point of filling the Germans and Italians with admiration. They often surrendered only after orders given by the High Command, and many of them did so only one week after the Armistice had been signed.

The choice of building the Maginot Line had several goals :
• Avoid a surprise attack like in Belgium, Netherlands ... and give alert
• Cover the mobilization (at least 2-3 weeks)
• Economize the French forces (France had only 39 millions citizens against 70 millions for Germany and much less 20-25 year old men in the Army than Germany had)
• Protect Alsace/Lorraine and its industry
• Be the departure line for a counter-attack
• Force the Germans to attack by the flanks (Belgium or Switzerland)

Only after Dunkirk Hitler decided to attack the Maginot Line. The German crossed the Rhine and destroyed several small bunkers but the big defence works, even attacked by heavy support (420mm Skoda heavy mortars, 1000kg bombs etc) resisted to all assaults and inflicted heavy losses to the enemy. About 22,000 encircled men in Alsace/Lorraine mobilized 240,000 Germans and in the Alps 60,000 frontline alpine troops encountered 312,500 Italians.

Oddly enough, the Maginot line was a success ; it accomplished exactly what it was intended to do. It wasn't designed to fully protect France from an attack from the east, though the Maginot line mentality fostered the idea that it would. It was designed to compensate for France's inferiority in troops, versus Germany, by reducing the area that the field army had to cover, and by freeing up personnel for that field army's manoeuvre divisions. It did exactly that. It wasn't the Maginot line's fault that the French High Command wasn't able to use the field army effectively.

Concerning the Maginot line in Alsace for example, the German did attack across the Rhine in June 40 (operation Kleiner Bär) with the VII. Armee : 25. Armee Korps, 27. Armee Korps, 33. Höh. Kdo, 213.ID, 6.Gebirgsdivision ; more than 5 artillery regiments and strong air support. The French had to fight 1 vs 10 with second line troops and they had less than 10 field howitzers (a few 75mm and several 155mm) for a front of more or less 200 km.The Germans grouped heavy AA guns (8.8cm Fla.K) to fire directly at the bunkers at less than 200m and to destroy them while 3.7cm Fla.K. and 3.7cm Pa.K. had to blind/destroy the weapons crenels and observation means of the same bunker. In front of each French bunker there were about 4 to 6 AA/AT guns. Repeated 8.8cm Fla.K. shells at fired at the basis of the copulas above the casemate managed sometimes to open a hole in which the German engineers could throw satchel charges to increase the hole and also fire their flamethrowers.
The French fortification on the Rhine were only smaller bunker and due to the ground water they has no underground levels at all, these were surface fortifications with simplified armament. Due to the small size there for example no 37mm/47mm AT guns but only 13.2mm HMGs as AT weapons.

Armistice came on 25th June 1940 but many defence works surrendered only one week later. Looking at these facts the Maginot Line did play a good part of its role. It avoided an immediate surprise attack like in Poland, Belgium, Norway etc. It covered the mobilization period and no enemy incursion occurred during this period, it efficiently protected the industries in Alsace/Lorraine and forced Hitler to attack the neutral Belgium where elite troops were send to stop them. Everyone now knows that they did not manage to stop them and that they were in fact only attracted in Belgium. Defeat was not a fatality and the Maginot line was not the reason of that defeat but became often the scapegoat.

In several areas (Thionville, Bitche, Wissembourg) the Maginot Line was a real 20-30 km depth defence system :

1) Anti-tank barriers / gates as well as bridges / crossings ready to be blown

2) Fortified Houses
Located close to the borders and on the edge of towns or villages bordering Germany, to command all approaches. Manned by mobile guards these positions were designed to provide early warning of a potential enemy attack.

3) Fore-posts
Located about 2-3 km behind the border. Bunkers armed with MGs, 25mm AT guns and former navy 47mm and 65mm guns.

4) AT rails lines and AT ditches + mobile AT gates on the roads

5) The main resistance line at about 10 km from the border

Big defence works : 46 artillery and 62 infantry defence works
The defence works are made up of two clusters (rear and front) of combat blocks linked together by a long underground gallery. The combat block are generally topped with copulas embedded in the concrete. These copulas are armed with LMGs and 50mm mortars and are actually the bunker's observatories. These defensive work are protected by up to 3.50m of iron/concrete, resisting to 420mm and 520mm artillery shells.
The rear cluster consists of two entries (2 blocks) :
• The ammunition entry provides space for handling loads and embodies two blockhouses, which where armed with twin MAC31 MGs, 37mm/47mm AT guns, LMGs and hand-grenade launchers.
• The men's entry was also armed with such weapons. Around 25-30m below ground level, it houses barracks, power supply, kitchens, water tanks, medical facilities etc.
The front cluster consists of several infantry and artillery combat blocks :
• The infantry blocks include blockhouses (with copulas and crenel armaments) and rotating, retractable twin MGs turrets.
• The artillery blocks include blockhouses (with copulas and crenel armaments) with copulas and rotating, retractable twin guns/howitzers/mortars turrets.
Each block has several levels with elevators, ammunitions storages, order transmitters to communicate from one room to an other, water tanks, power supply, a small barrack etc. Each defence work is protected by a network of traps, barbed wires, embedded spikes and upright standing rails including AT mines, and could provide coverage fire to their neighbouring defence works.

340 blockhouses/casemates
Topped with copulas they were built in the intervals between the bigger defence works and protected their flanks and rears. They were each manned by 25 to 30 soldiers and equipped for self-sufficient operations. They used to be connected by telephone or radio to one another and to neighbouring bigger defence works, and held the weaponry used for short range coverage fire.

17 observation bunkers
Located on the heights of neighbouring hills, in addition to those within the big defence works, they are strongly built up posts provided with copulas and designed to spot out enemy concentrations and give warning to neighbouring defence works and/or blockhouses by telephone or radio.

6) 89 Shelter-bunkers with their infantry units
Those multiple level barracks are protected by very thick concrete-iron layers. They are usually located a few km behind the big defence works. They were manned by interval mobile troops to help ward off enemy inroads and to counter-attack.

7) The second line of resistance at about 15 km of the border
This line consists of the innumerable MOM and STG blockhouses and bunkers which are also present to fill the gaps between the bigger blockhouses / defence works.

8) Mobile artillery units including heavy railroad artillery

9) Rear infrasctructures at 15-25 km from the border
Equipments and ammunitions dumps linked to the first lines by dedicated roads and railroads.
Underground telephone networks etc.

I can detail you all the technical and armament stuff of the Maginot line if you want and send you plans etc. butI doubt you are really interested in the Maginot Line.

-----------

Design of a typical fort : the defence work of Schoenenbourg (in northern Alsace) :

This defence work gathers all the main features arising from the experience acquired during the battles at Verdun (1916 to 1918), namely :
• the distant location of the rear entry from the front combat blocks, which allowed for the men not to be disturbed in their sleep, even when the fort underwent heavy bombardments ;
• improved resistance possibilities, thanks to the Schoenenbourg's self-sufficient energy power generators, to the reserves of water, food and ammunition and to ventilation as well as liaison with the outside ;
• stress laid on weapons within rotating, retractable turrets, such as heavy guns, mortars and twin MGs ;
• the armament diversity of the various combat blocks, which ensured high efficiency ;
• the ability of the Schoenenbourg to provide fire coverage to neighbouring blockhouses and the possibility of receiving coverage fire by them, on request ;
• safe connections to all blocks, thanks to an underground network.

These principles were implemented as follows :
• at the front : 6 combat blocks (turret and casemate blocks) ;
• at the rear, about 1 km away from the front : 2 entries (for the men and the munitions) ;
• the setting up of the bunker's facilities in the rear : barracks, kitchens, hospital, power shop, water tanks, etc. ;
• a network of galleries stretching over 3 km all in all, ensuring connection to the various sectors at a depth of 18 to 30 m below ground level with also a hidden exit (a vertical gallery filled with sand/clay, that could be emptied from the underground thanks to a simple procedure before using it evacuate)

Until 1941-1942 no known weapon could destroy such heavy bunkers, which by the end of the campaign of France turned out to have been impregnable so far.


The commander of Schoenenbourg's defence work was the "chef de bataillon" Martial Reynier. The garrison is composed of :
• 20 officers
• 60 NCOs
• 550 corporals and soldiers
TOTAL : 630 men

about 250 men from the 156e RAP (Régiment d'Artillerie de Position) (artillery)
about 180 men from the 22e RIF (Régiment d'Infanterie de Forteresse) (infantry)
about 160 men from the 206e bataillon du génie (engineers)
about 40 men from various services (medical corps etc.)

The front cluster is composed of 6 combat blocks :
• 4 block with artillery turrets
• 2 casemates

The rear cluster is composed of 2 blocks protecting the men's and ammunitions' entries.

BLOCK 8 : entry of the men
• 1 crenel for 47mm Mle1934 AT gun / in alternance with MAC31 twin MGs
• 2 crenels for FM 24/29 LMGs
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 1 mortar copula armed with a 50mm mortar
• 3 "goulottes lance-grandes" to launch hand grenades in the ditch around the block

BLOCK 7 : entry of the ammunitions
• 1 crenel for 47mm Mle1934 AT gun / in alternance with MAC31 twin MGs
• 3 crenels for FM 24/29 LMGs
• 2 GFM copulas armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 3 "goulottes lance-grandes" to launch hand grenades in the ditch around the block
• 1 small bunker inside the entry corridor with a FM 24/29 LMG

BLOCK 1 : infantry casemate on two surface levels
• 1 crenel for 47mm Mle1934 AT gun / in alternance with MAC31 twin MGs
• 1 crenel for MAC31 twin MGs
• 1 crenel for FM 24/29 LMG
• 2 GFM copulas armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 3 "goulottes lance-grandes" to launch hand grenades in the ditch around the block

BLOCK 6 : infantry casemate on two surface levels
• 1 crenel for 47mm Mle1934 AT gun / in alternance with MAC31 twin MGs
• 1 crenel for MAC31 twin MGs
• 1 crenel for FM 24/29 LMG
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 3 "goulottes lance-grandes" to launch hand grenades in the ditch around the block

BLOCK 2 : MGs turret block
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 1 retractable turret with 2 MAC31 MGs

BLOCK 3 : 75mm guns turret block
• 1 retractable turret with 2 75mm Mle1932 R guns
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar

BLOCK 4 : 75mm guns turret block
• 1 retractable turret with 2 75mm Mle1932 R guns
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 1 VDP copula

BLOCK 5 : 81mm mortars turret block
• 1 retractable turret with 2 81mm mortars
• 1 GFM copula armed with one FM 24/29 LMG and one 50mm mortar
• 1 mortar copula with on 50mm mortar

TOTAL ARMAMENT :
• 75mm Mle1932 R guns : 4
• 81mm mortars : 2
• 47mm Mle1934 AT guns : 4
• 50mm mortars : 12
• MAC31 MGs : 14
• FM 24/29 LMGs : 18
• hand grenade launchers : 12

AMMUNITIONS STORED IN THE DEFENCE WORK :
• 75mm shells : 16,000
• 81mm shells : 6,400
• 50mm shells : 12,000
• 47mm shells : 2,400
• 7.5mm cartridges : 1,448,000
• many hand grenades, various explosives, flares etc.

On 20th March 1940, four 120mm Mle1878 De Bange guns equipped the Schoenenbourg defence work. These old guns had a slow rate of fire but they were very precise and suited harassing fire very well.
The guns are operational on 5th April 1940, and divided into two batteries served by men from the block 5.
S4 Battery, with two guns is deplyed near block 6 and communicates with it by the means of a trench.
S5 Battery, with the two guns left, is set up between the two entrance blocks, namely block 7 and 8.

From September 1939 to June 1940, the Schoenenbourg fort fired :
• 75mm shells : 15,792
• 81mm shells : 682
• 120mm shells : 723
TOTAL : 17,197 shells in 10 months

By mid-June 1940 all the Maginot Line positions were already encircled by German forces, which had reached the Swiss border. The interval troops, who were to cover the gaps in-between the defence works and casemates, had been withdrawn from their supporting positions, namely in the French Saar and in the areas stretching beyond Schoenenbourg up to the Rhine, in order to help create a new defence line on the Meuse river and the Marne to Rhine canal. To reach their new positions these troops walked night and day long, being often attacked by the Luftwaffe.
From 15th to 19th June 1940, the Germans attacked the Maginot Line itself and crossed the river Rhine near Colmar, in a well coordinated amphibeous operation. They also proceeded through the weakly defended Saar gap, where the water barrier constituted a negligible obstacle without the presence of defending interval troops, which were in retreat to the south.
The Schoenenbourg defence work, located on a key position covering the road from Wissembourg to Haguenau, was actually attacked by the 246.ID. The assaults were supported by 10.5cm, 15cm, 28cm, 35.5cm and 42cm guns, as well as by Ju-87 Stuka dive bombers and He-111 level bombers dropping 50kg, 100kg, 500kg and 1000kg bombs. Soon, the earth on and about the combat blocks got deeply cratered. The 81mm mortars turret suffered damage and a good hit by a 42cm shell nearly penetrated into its magazine, but fortunately it didn't pierce. The other combat blocks also underwent heavy shelling. Some shells penetrated into the permeable soil to explode 10-12m below. Nevertheless, after the bombing and shelling the turrets carried on shooting as much and as efficiently as before.
On the whole, the defence work underwent only little damage, which could be repaired in the night. Together with its neighbours, the "Hochwald" and the "Four à Chaux" defence works, the "Schoenenbourg" denied the German forces the way through. The 246.ID never managed to cross the defence line during its assaults and suffered heavy casualties.
The "Schoenenbourg" actually surrendered only a few days after the armistice, complying with the orders given to Commandant Reynier by the French High Command in Paris.
The "Schoenenbourg" was occupied by the German forces from July 1940 to end 1944. Before leaving the defence work, the Germans destroyed the two entries.

The Germans were pinned down by the artillery of the Maginot Line in their attempt to break through to the heights of Aschbach-Oberroedern. They had no other choice than to bombard the Schoenenbourg fort, hoping to silence it. For this, they employed regular field artillery, heavy artillery and the Luftwaffe. The Schoenenbourg fort was the most heavily bombarded position on the whole Maginot Line :
• From 14th May 1940 on, a 28cm heavy gun (RR gun) fired 33 shells at Schoenenbourg without any appreciable results
• 40 shells from a 42cm Skoda gun (weight of one shell is 1020 kg) and about 10 35.5cm shells fired on 21st, 22nd and 23rd June 1940
• About 3000 15cm and 10.5cm shells fired from 15th May 1940 on
• About 70 heavy bombs and 90 medium/light bombs dropped on 19th, 20th and 21st June 1940
TOTAL : 3249 shells and bombs

Without getting into too much detail, the reported effects from this bombardment were as follows.
• block 1 : one dual machine gun buckled by the concussion of a heavy bomb. After being unavailable for 45 minutes, this gun was repaired on the forge in the fort's workshop by Adjutant Jouan. No other damage in the block.
• block 2 : no damage in the block. Nonetheless, below ground, the switch panel was put out of order by the vibration resulting from the explosions.
• block 3 : 42cm shell hit the reinforced concrete platform over the block, causing a bathtub-sized gouge

In July 1940, the Germans took possession of Schoenenbourg fort. They were to stay there until the beginning of 1945. At first, they were simply fascinated by the fort. They explored in detail this fortification which had been such a thorn in their side, and for which they showed a certain respect. Tours were organized, both above and below ground. Self-guiding placards marked the craters from 1000kg bombs and the deep craters in the earth resulting from the penetration of the 42cm shells. Senior officers from all branches of service, among them the Hungarian General Vitez visited the fort.
In the course of one of these visits, the commanders of the two batteries of giant mortars that had shelled the fort each tried in turn to take credit for the rounds that had scored hits. In fact, for the few days of combat before the Armistice, the Schoenenbourg defence work had served the Germans as a marvelous "test-case" for future campaigns. The victors carefully researched the extent of the damage.
They carefully studied the fort itself, its structure and its surroundings. They went as far as taking very precise hydrological and geological readings. And showing some sense of humor, they catalogued the frog who had taken up residence in the outflow pipe of the spring which cut through the lower part of block 6.
With Alsace annexed to the Reich, the Hitlerjugend organization made its young adherents visit the Fort regularly.
Then things settled down, since the first setbacks for the Wehrmacht were taking place. The mighty German industrial complex was not keeping up with the insatiable appetite of the German war machine. As a result, the Germans relied on the productive capacity of the conquered countries. Large amounts of French equipment and supplies were immediately rounded up and re-used.
At the Schoenenbourg fort, the Germans took out two of the four Sulzer motors, to be re-used at unknown locations. A good deal of ventilation equipment, with its motors, was similarly un-installed and stockpiled at the barracks in Lembach, then shipped out to an unknown destination. The refill pump for the water tank in the front depot part of the gallery was found somewhere else, as was the "normal air" ventilator from block 1, whose motor had been mounted on the camp pump. Next, the engine of the Vetra tractor-train disappeared (it seems that the second engine was not taken), and one of the two step-down motors from the traction substation was lifted, although the electrical cable for the trolley was left in place. In the machine room's workshop, the turret lathe was dismounted and taken outdoors, along with the drill press. Strangely, this was offset by the addition of a turret lathe of German manufacture, which was later shown to be incomplete.
Outside, the anti-tank barrier, whose six rows of implanted rails stretched as far as the eye could see, was torn out. The thousands of tons of good steel that were gleaned were melted down in the blast furnaces of the Ruhr. Next, the military phone cables were dug up. Miles of cable were scavenged, to recover the copper and lead. The transformer station for the workshop near the men's entry was dismantled. However, the large electric supply cable that connected the Fort to the outside world remained intact.

Summer 1944, the Allied armies were rolling across France. The Wehrmacht was in constant retreat, and unable to hold. On 23rd November 1944, the French flag few again on Strasbourg. But the advantage of surprise was no longer a factor, and the pace of the American advance towards the Palatinate was rather labored. Even though the people of Strasbourg had been savoring their newfound freedom for about three weeks, the refinery at Pechelbron [a small village some km northwest of the fort] was still running for the benefit of the Reich. Since the commercial power grid of northern Alsace had been partially disconnected or damaged, the two Sulzer motors from Schoenenbourg fort supplied the refinery with electric power.
A few adjustments was all it took, and they ran perfectly well. The motors continued to run until 15th December 1944, and that was it, since German resistance melted away after the fall of Haguenau on the 11th. The Americans arrived in the town of Soultz, about a mile and a half from the fort, on 15th December, and made it to the German border on the 16th.
At the end of December, Alsace was liberated, but not for long. Starting at the very beginning of 1945, operation Nordwind enabled the Germans to retake part of the ground they had lost. On 6th January, the Americans organized a line of resistance anchored on the Maginot Line. Since the winter was particularly raw that year, elements of the US 79th infantry division guarding the road to Wissembourg took turns seeking shelter under the armored shells of the combat blocks of the Schoenenbourg fort. One GI, undoubtedly impressed by the fresco of a driver in block 1, carved below it a small inscription dated 1st January 1945.
Dug in on the ridge line which dominates the hollow in which the village of Ingolsheim is nestled, the Americans fired without letup on anything that moved. The German 245.ID which opposed them and which had previously occupied positions on the Siegfried Line, was the least capable unit in the Lauter sector, and consequently the Germans did not succeed in taking the village. It was not until 20th January that the Germans could move forward again, taking advantage of the American pullback from the Hatten-Rittershoffen pocket, and of the general fallback.
The Schoenenbourg defence work would fall once more into German hands, this time until 18th March 1945. However, the Germans understood that their gains did not signal victory. Since the Americans would certainly be trying their old tricks again, it was important to the Germans to keep them from once more seizing the Maginot Line.
Tons of explosives were stockpiled near the forts in northern Alsace. The German scouts had orders not to leave intact a single Maginot fortification between Lembach and Hunspach, to remove any major obstacle on the important line of communication linking Wissembourg and Haguenau. All the positions in this sector of the Maginot Line capable of directing fire against the main highway were blown up, along with the troop shelter at Schoenenbourg. The big forts, however, were another thing altogether. Blowing them completely would take weeks. Instead, the demolition teams would render the forts inactive and inaccessible by dynamiting their entryways and destroying both their weapons and their electrical generating capability.

At the Schoenenbourg fort, the Germans hurriedly dismounted the barrels of the two 75mm guns in block 3 and carried them outside. They overlooked, however, the two spare tubes that were kept held in their mount on the lower level of the block.
Since dismounting the guns of block 3 had been judged to be too much work, the Germans contented themselves with sabotaging the 75mm guns in block 4. Undoubtedly they were leery of doing much more, because 500 fuzed shells filled the turret and its immediate area.
The MGs turret of block 2 was also put out of action, this time with the aid of explosives. The charge was not a large one, but it was enough to immobilize the shaft of the turret in the "up" position.
In the infantry blocks 1 and 6, the breech blocks of the anti-tank guns were removed.
Meanwhile, the demolition men got busy in the machine room, where they placed charges against the two Sulzer motors. The explosives went off with a terrible roar. The shock wave travelled first along the area in which the motors were mounted, then into the cross-corridors, and ended up by mangling the first airlock door. On the left side, the explosion surged into the pit where the cooling water tanks were located, destroying the CLM [Compagnie Lilloise des Moteurs-now a part of Peugeot] motor along the way. The first holding tank was hit on the side, and the others took the blast wave from the top. All the covers were bowed in, and are convex toward the bottom (which is still visible today).
On the right of the motor mounting area, the blast wave wrecked all the ductwork of the main ventilation system. Nothing remained of the big conduits but a tangle of shredded sheet metal work.
When the smoke cleared in the machine room, one of the Sulzer motors was completely unusable. The second, a back-up, did not suffer too badly, since it appears that the charge did not go off. As evidence of this, it ran again in 1946. The electrical switch panel was intact, but the connector panel located near the center of the explosion was pulverized.

The underground explosions had scarcely subsided when those that were to devastate the two entryways were set off. At the ammunitions entry, the Germans had placed a large quantity of explosives in the hallway/unloading area that was protected by the armored door, as well as in the dry moat under the rolling bridge [this gangway, when retracted, cut off entry to vehicles]. Setting off these charges caused another hellish explosion. In the unloading area, chunks of reinforced concrete were ripped off and thrown in all directions. As it roared through, the shock wave destroyed the cages of the two ammunition hoists as well as the heads of its stanchions. The huge armored door was twisted like a piece of straw.
A dozen or so feet from there, the second charge pulverized not only the protective moat and the retractable gangway but also the thick wall overhanging it all. The Tourtellier monorail in the front hall was ripped from its mounting, and the grillwork over the entryway was completely wrecked. Thus the Germans achieved their purpose at the Munitions Entrance. The 1947 report of the Engineers described it in these terms, "block blown up, three-quarters destroyed," adding in addition that in 1947, the firing chamber was still inaccessible, obstructed by blocks of reinforced concrete.
At the men's entry, the result was even more definitive. Here the Germans satisfied themselves by stuffing the zig-zag portion of the entry corridor with explosives. The huge explosion tore out the front wall of the entry, which was thrown outside. The floor was now just a big hole, through which the blast wave reached down to the next lower level. Above the center of the explosion, the concrete layer was cracked all the way through, and huge fissures radiated out to the edges of the block. The shock wave cracked the shaft connecting with the next level up, destroying as is passed all the ventilation ductwork, as well as the cage and the stanchion of the ammunition hoist. The blast wave finally died out some 20m farther on, but not without first having damaged the electric panel under the block and caved in the oil reservoirs in the transformer area.
As they fell back towards the north, the Germans left in their wake a fortification that had been mutilated and, as they had intended, was unusable for a good while. It didn't make much difference, since elements of the 141th regiment of the US 36th infantry division, which on 20th March 1945 were moving forward without encountering resistance between Schoenenbourg and Ingolsheim, were not much interested in stopping at the Maginot Line. In effect, the Americans and the French forces of the 3rd Algerian Infantry Division had entered Germany the day before, and the German front line had been broken since the 16th March.



Sources :
• "France 1940 – l'armement terrestre" (Stéphane Ferrard)
• Various 1937-1940 French military manuals
• Direction Générale de l'Armement
• "Hommes et ouvrages de la Ligne Maginot" (Jean-Yves Mary et Alain Hohnadel) – 3 volumes
• "Il était une fois la Ligne Maginot" (Jean-Bernard Wahl)
• "Histoires de Guerre" magazine
• http://www.lignemaginot.com/index10.htm


David

[roland]

@BlackRain

That's funny. You're completly biased but your links are correct.
Well, from your article:


In a moment of reflection, and in my ignorance of world affairs at the time, I wondered why the British would have sought the destruction of their ally’s fleet. In the ensuing years I have studied accounts written at the time. They still provide no truly logical explanation—illustrating once again that in warfare there is often more emotion than logic. And, as in many historic naval engagements, a series of misunderstandings and lack of communication determined the outcome.


That's it. Mers el Kebir was huge, but understandable, mistake and the British admitted it.



In March of 1940 the French and British had concluded an agreement that neither would ever sign a separate peace treaty with the Nazis. Three months later Paris had fallen and a beleaguered Premier Paul Reynaud petitioned Churchill to be released from the obligation. Churchill responded in typical fashion. The French would be permitted to explore conditions for an armistice but only on condition that the French fleet set sail for British ports.

France had been beaten and well. That's a change no ?
Churchill asked the French fleet sail to British ports, French never agreed with that, instead


French Marine Minister Admiral Darlan had given Churchill his word that the French fleet would never be allowed to fall into the hands of the Nazis.


What was done.
As I've said, never the Germans could seize the fleet.
Again, instead, Vichy scuttled the French fleet in Toulon. November 27, 1942.
see http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/toulon.htm



Read more about the French refusal to honor this promise:
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/merselkebir.aspx
[/quote]

quoting your own link, that is correct, I prove you wrong. Are you fair enough to admit it ?

[Clarsachier]

[quote=Clarsachier]
Oh really? 'Most theaters?'

Then you should be able to name just one.

How about I name just a few of the dozens. The Vichy did not exist in a vacuum. They were made up and support by the French citizens.


Well I'm late for the party and now, I have 3 pages to read to catch up.

Thanks for the info. I did want to point out that the French fleet would not
fight for the Vichy and were sunk in the harbor except for three vessels which made it to the harbor entrance. - This doesn't count as French fighting for the Nazis.

When attacked on the ground, the French fought back - ONE engagement.
And that could have been avoided by some diplomacy - recognising Degaulle's 'Free French.'

The stupidity of the allies in 'negotiating' with the Nazi puppet government
in Vichy, and not recognising the 'Free French' movement' is amazing. France was an occupied country nothing more nothing less at that time.

The French had all their eggs in the basket of the Maginot wall, when that fell obviously they knew they were going to loose and surrendered. No dishonor, there. The Nazis would have bombed their cities into rubble.

What's your point? :|

[Warlord]

I hope they do it fast enough. My boss doesn't have it till now. The Jews might be incompetent.

Hey maybe that anchor got it already from buggering the cameraman whose name is Ahmed but is secretly a Jewish homo****** agent sent to do this dastardly deed.

Kooks.

[tooms]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

LoL it's exactly what i think about you with the big wall in Israel. :lol:

[S'13]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

LoL it's exactly what i think about you with the big wall in Israel. :lol:

The barrier (which over 90% of it is a fence) we are building isn't meant to keep out armies but terrorists... Understand the difference? rofl

Not to mention that the barrier has so far been very effective.

[quorthon]

The Nazis built a wall too you know.

I see multiple cases of selective amnesia.

[roland]

I see multiple cases of selective amnesia.
like what ?

[S'13]

EDIT

[quorthon]

Getting all worked up about a wall that happens to be french?

The nazi wall didn't work but you don't see people here bashing them for building a wall "in the age of airplanes and tanks".

[TALOS]

The Nazis built a wall too you know.

I see multiple cases of selective amnesia.
Nazis built a wall? or you reffering to the atlantic wall?

[Jehuty]

The Nazis built a wall too you know.

I see multiple cases of selective amnesia.
Nazis built a wall? or you reffering to the atlantic wall?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Line

[TALOS]

The Nazis built a wall too you know.

I see multiple cases of selective amnesia.
Nazis built a wall? or you reffering to the atlantic wall?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Line

Ah, ok thankyou, never ever really think about that wall.forgot it even existed actually. :oops:

[Haiw]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
They don't... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4093579.stm)
;)

[achilles]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
They don't... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4093579.stm)
;)

someone got shafted or is it just my impression? p-)

[moughoun]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
They don't... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4093579.stm)
;)

someone got shafted or is it just my impression? p-)
I got that distinct impression too..............it can't be right p-)

[achilles]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
They don't... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4093579.stm)
;)

someone got shafted or is it just my impression? p-)
I got that distinct impression too..............it can't be right p-)

ffff yeah...just two people sharing the share impression doesnt mean **** p-)

[cut]

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???
They don't... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4093579.stm)
;)

someone got shafted or is it just my impression? p-)
I got that distinct impression too..............it can't be right p-)

ffff yeah...just two people sharing the share impression doesnt mean **** p-)

make it 3 p-)

[morlick]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

yes it's stupid like build a big wall against terrorists.

[bayul]

French leaders are actually playing a very silly game with some islamic personnalities:

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8507/2004-11-25T125310Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OFRTP-LIBYE-FRANCE-CHIRAC-20041125.jpg

what the f*** has that go to do with anything? Blair met gadhafi too, as did representatives of the Bush administration.

Martin (Paul Martin, Canadian Prime Minister....eeh forget it) is meeting him in the next few days as well

[S'13]

Roland, there's much shame in your fight against Nazi germany, you were stupid enough to build a big wall in an age of tanks and war planes, instead of building tanks and an air force.

yes it's stupid like build a big wall against terrorists.

Is that why since we have started to build the security barrier (it's not even finished) the number of terror attacks inside Israel has droped drastically?
It's better to not make claimes over things you know nothing about... :lol:

[walford]

Is that why since we have started to build the security barrier (it's not even finished) the number of terror attacks inside Israel has droped drastically?1. That is precisely why the barrier you are building pisses off the Arabs and their Western sychophants/apologists. They hate it because it is saving Israeli lives.

2. Comparing the Israeli barrier to the Maginot Line is absurd. The NAZIs had a mechanized army that could go around the defensive barrier [which was erected in the hopes of not having to field a comparable army].

If the Israelis were facing a similarly equipped enemy, they would not deal with them by erecting a wall. The IDF has developed quite effective methods of killing enemy tanks over the years.

[morlick]

Is that why since we have started to build the security barrier (it's not even finished) the number of terror attacks inside Israel has droped drastically?


We will talk about this in a few years.

[Haiw]

Is that why since we have started to build the security barrier (it's not even finished) the number of terror attacks inside Israel has droped drastically?1. That is precisely why the barrier you are building pisses off the Arabs and their Western sychophants/apologists. They hate it because it is saving Israeli lives.
rofl
You don't honestly mean that do you? :lol:

[S'13]

Is that why since we have started to build the security barrier (it's not even finished) the number of terror attacks inside Israel has droped drastically?


We will talk about this in a few years.

No need to tlak about it in a few years since we already see results.

[walford]

You don't honestly mean that do you?Yes (http://utopia-unmasked.us/ArabIsraeli.htm).

...The enemies of Israel can afford to try and try again to destroy Israel. Israel cannot afford to lose in this struggle even once. There are some who would say that what is herein recommended would be provocative.

What is ‘provocative’ is anything that ensures and/or enhances the security of Israel. What is ‘provocative’ is the very existence of Israel. All of the current demands that the Palestinians make of Israel would serve to undermine that security. This is why these demands are being made. That is why ¾ of them approve of suicide attacks against civilian targets. The Palestinians understand that they are in a war to destroy Israel. It is time that the Israelis understand this and act accordingly. It is not possible to ‘live’ with people who will settle for nothing less than death... :D :) :( :lol: :P :oops: :roll: :backhand: ;) :| :bash: rofl :hug: woot :petting: :fork: :cantbeli: p-) :slap: :-*$

[Haiw]

So anyone who has objections against the wall can immediately be thrown into the terrorist-sympathizing Israel-hating bucket... yay. :roll:

Funny... I had never expected that from Colin Powell and the Bush administration... (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99095,00.html)

[Laworkerbee]

Wow the likes of Haiw and morlick never cease to amaze me

you dislike a wall that saves peoples lives both Israelis and Palestinians period!....and cant wait to be vindicated in its failure where it has already proven a success

good walls make good nieghbors

and your comparing of the Maginot Line is with the seperation wall is the dumbest thing I've heard in years.

[Moledet]

So anyone who has objections against the wall can immediately be thrown into the terrorist-sympathizing Israel-hating bucket... yay. :roll:

Funny... I had never expected that from Colin Powell and the Bush administration... (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99095,00.html)
They didn't oppose the barrier, they opposed the route.

I guess Al Manar's antisemitic shows took all the rating from the rest of the channels, so the government was pressured to cancel that channel.

[J-10]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041215/capt.sge.otd76.151204060255.photo00.photo.default-384x298.jpg

Whatever we shouldn't ban this woman. p-)

[Ratman]

“Al-Manar” stirs uproar in France after accusing Israel of spreading AIDS

Or Heler, Paris

Days after Hezbollah-affiliated station permitted to broadcast in France, one of its commentators said Israel was spreading diseases in Arab world.

Less than ten days after Hezbollah’s “al-Manar” television station was permitted to broadcast in France, one of its commentators has stirred uproar after he accused Israel of “repeated attempts in the past several years to spread AIDS throughout the Arab world”.

The commentator, who was defined as an expert on the “Zionist entity”, described at length how Israel has been trying to spread dangerous diseases, including AIDS, in the Arab world.

The French regulatory body, which granted “al-Manar” permission to broadcast in the country, announced on Tuesday it would demand the French parliament to immediately cease its transmissions.

President of the regulatory authority, Dominique Bodis, accused the Lebanese station of violating the rules of the broadcasting license. “It must be taken off the air. Its broadcasts are filled with hatred, violence and racism”, he said.

Meanwhile, the umbrella organization of Jewish institutions in France has decided to step up its protest against the airing of “al-Manar”. In recent days, the organization began asking citizens throughout the country to sign a petition against the station titled, “Worried French Citizens”.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11878


----------

Why does the French government permit this terrorist's organization to broadcast in France??? Hmmm... I wonder why....???

Just a question: how is this absurd claim any different from the statement that the invasion of Iraq was part of the "War on Terror? Both positions fall into the hysterical-there's-another-reason-that-I'm-not-telling-you pile o ****e.

[StarvingStudent47]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041215/capt.sge.otd76.151204060255.photo00.photo.default-384x298.jpg

Whatever we shouldn't ban this woman. p-)

I can't tell from the ten square inches of skin whether she's hot or not. Now the BBC's Mishal Husain is an Arab newsanchor I can smile about. And I can even tell what color hair she has. Oh, the rampant ******ity!

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal2.jpg

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal.jpg

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal6.jpg

[J-10]

I can't tell from the ten square inches of skin whether she's hot or not. Now the BBC's Mishal Husain is an Arab newsanchor I can smile about. And I can even tell what color hair she has. Oh, the rampant ******ity!
http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal.jpg


This pic looks hot, but she seems unlike a typical Arab.

[cut]

I can't tell from the ten square inches of skin whether she's hot or not. Now the BBC's Mishal Husain is an Arab newsanchor I can smile about. And I can even tell what color hair she has. Oh, the rampant ******ity!
http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal.jpg


This pic looks hot, but she seems unlike a typical Arab.

only because of the way she dresses (+ make-up)

[Roger Rabbit]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041215/capt.sge.otd76.151204060255.photo00.photo.default-384x298.jpg

Whatever we shouldn't ban this woman. p-)

I can't tell from the ten square inches of skin whether she's hot or not. Now the BBC's Mishal Husain is an Arab newsanchor I can smile about. And I can even tell what color hair she has. Oh, the rampant ******ity!

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal2.jpg

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal.jpg

http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal6.jpg

This has to be one of the best posts in this thread. :D

[StarvingStudent47]

This has to be one of the best posts in this thread. :D

Another thread hijacked into thoroughly inane debate, courtesy of the Starving Student. Y'all take yourselves too seriously sometimes.

:)

[StarvingStudent47]

I can't tell from the ten square inches of skin whether she's hot or not. Now the BBC's Mishal Husain is an Arab newsanchor I can smile about. And I can even tell what color hair she has. Oh, the rampant ******ity!
http://home.wanadoo.nl/kraan90/image/husain,%20mishal.jpg


This pic looks hot, but she seems unlike a typical Arab.

You are correct, she is not barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and dressed in a giant black bag.



(Political correctness disclaimer: this isn't a dig at all Arabs, just the rampant misogyny in modern Arab culture)