New Gorshkov refit pics

[rajkhalsa]

Here's a good new set of pics giving a good view on what exactly the upgrade of Gorshkov would entail.

Before:
http://img72.exs.cx/img72/1623/cb-Gorshkov81.jpg

After:
http://img127.exs.cx/img127/694/88-Gorshkov91.jpg

Note the enlarged flight deck, removal of forward guns, considerable redesign of the superstructure, and addition of ski-jump.


As an added bonus, here's the much awaited pic of India's project 15A Bangalore Class destroyer. Overall, a leaner, meaner INS Delhi class, packing quite a punch with 16(!) VL BrahMos supersonic ASCMs:
http://img72.exs.cx/img72/391/af-P15a1.jpg

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/3408/42-P15b1.jpg


And INS Talwar:
http://img49.exs.cx/img49/6529/72-Talwar31.jpg

Regards,
Raj

[mountainbear]

woot Nice. India is building a powerful navy, very good!!

Did you find those pics on http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ ?because it is a very good site.

[TheKiwi]

The revised Gorshkov looks very nice indeed. Is this rebuild under way yet? What will the Indian navy be calling her?

(On a similar note, why the ski jump instead of catapults. The Indian Navy must have had experience with these in the days prior to obtaining the Sea Harriers (they had Sea Hawk's didn't they?)).

[ronin2172]

The revised Gorshkov looks very nice indeed. Is this rebuild under way yet? What will the Indian navy be calling her?

(On a similar note, why the ski jump instead of catapults. The Indian Navy must have had experience with these in the days prior to obtaining the Sea Harriers (they had Sea Hawk's didn't they?)).
Maybe but i think it would have more to do with the fact that it is easier and cheaper to use and install a ski jump, plus the russians (who are doing/ or going to do the work dont have too much experience in catapaults, if any) it's a neat design but it looks like u can only launch one plane at a time, that'll suck if u have to launch your assets in a hurry, that destroyer is impressive looking, i must admit.

[Hellfish]

The revised Gorshkov looks very nice indeed. Is this rebuild under way yet? What will the Indian navy be calling her?

(On a similar note, why the ski jump instead of catapults. The Indian Navy must have had experience with these in the days prior to obtaining the Sea Harriers (they had Sea Hawk's didn't they?)).

I think they'll be operating MiG-29Ks (and Sea Harriers?) off of her, hence the ski jump and angled deck.

I am very happy to see India coming into their own, I only wish they'd utilize more western equipment. A lot of this Russian stuff is 20-30 years old now, and probably hasn't been updated much since then. India could definately benefit from an Aegis platform, IMHO.

Are there any new amphibious ships in the works for the Indian Navy?

And, now that I think of it, do they even have an established Marine Corps or Naval Infantry capability?

[ronin2172]

last i read the air group is going to consist of Mig 29Ks and helicopters, again the ski jump is because the russians have the most experience with that instead of catapaults (and it's cheaper) also space is a premium on this design and a steam catapault would take too much (especially as it was not designed with a catapault in mind). U may not like it but it is easier and logical for India to go with Mig 29s as they already have them and it makes logistics easier. Also no name has been allocated to the carrier yet as i am not sure the deal has been finalised.

[sergey31]

The revised Gorshkov looks very nice indeed. Is this rebuild under way yet? What will the Indian navy be calling her?

(On a similar note, why the ski jump instead of catapults. The Indian Navy must have had experience with these in the days prior to obtaining the Sea Harriers (they had Sea Hawk's didn't they?)).

I think they'll be operating MiG-29Ks (and Sea Harriers?) off of her, hence the ski jump and angled deck.

I am very happy to see India coming into their own, I only wish they'd utilize more western equipment. A lot of this Russian stuff is 20-30 years old now, and probably hasn't been updated much since then. India could definately benefit from an Aegis platform, IMHO.

Are there any new amphibious ships in the works for the Indian Navy?

And, now that I think of it, do they even have an established Marine Corps or Naval Infantry capability?

They know what is best/better and trying to stick with it and it just so happens to be Russian hardware.

[TheKiwi]

Catapults are significantly better than ski jumps, but if your aircraft can't use them, then a ski-jump is better than no boost at all.

India is supposed to have a Maritime Commando Force, last I hear it was three or so battalions in size.

The Indian Navy has two or three LST's based on the UK Sir Lancalot design, eight or so Polnocny class small landing ships and a number of small landing craft (500 tons or so). http://www.hazegray.org

[ElHombre]

[And, now that I think of it, do they even have an established Marine Corps or Naval Infantry capability?

globalsecurity.org says their marine commando force is about 1,500-200 men and they undergo a two-year training course. it sounds more of a raiding force like the RM commandos or the USMC MEU's.

i figure that if they need to make a major amphibiuos landing they;ll train army units to do it. it worked well enough for the allies in noramndy. ;)

[Bluezoo]

Great and very impressive! How much did this carrier cost India and when will it be fully operational in the Indian Navy? :)

[Johnny_H02]

Thanks Nice pics

[perdurabo]

Catapults are significantly better than ski jumps, but if your aircraft can't use them, then a ski-jump is better than no boost at all.

India is supposed to have a Maritime Commando Force, last I hear it was three or so battalions in size.

The Indian Navy has two or three LST's based on the UK Sir Lancalot design, eight or so Polnocny class small landing ships and a number of small landing craft (500 tons or so). http://www.hazegray.org
PolnocnyA class is 770 from StoczniaPolnocna(NorthernShipyard -Poland)
http://www.cable.net.pl/~pinio/Dzieje%20desantow/Image27.gif
(old picture of class 770D not T that India has but they look similiar)
and this is class 773 codename Polnocny-C (bigger india bought 2 or 3 of them..in IM version)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/fleet/russian/surface/773-polnochny-c-002.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/fleet/russian/surface/773-polnochny-c-001.jpg
and they have old HMS Hermes now INS Viraat -VSTOL flaptop with skijump and they use Hariers on it.

[ronin2172]

Great and very impressive! How much did this carrier cost India and when will it be fully operational in the Indian Navy? :)
the refit is running over 1 billion (dollars i think) i don't know if that includes the Migs as well.... as to when it will be in service...who knows...everything looked good but they apparently hit a snag so the project is in limbo.

[rajkhalsa]

Gosh, this thread must have just completely slipped my mind. Sorry for taking so long to reply, guys.

Mountainbear,
Yup :) its a great site. The first two pics of the Gorshkov refit I had gotten from a Russian-language forum. IIRC the photos were snapped at DEFEXPO 2004 in India, and I like them because they show clearly, from relatively the same angle a before-and-after of the refit. Those pics have since been added to BR, though.


TheKiwi,
The Gorshkov refit is underway as we speak, and is to fully be inducted into the IN by 2008. It is rumored to be named INS Vikramaditya (Vik-rum-a-dit-yah) continuing the tradition of "V" names for carriers.

http://sevmash.ru/images/b09010003.jpg

http://sevmash.ru/images/b04000003.jpg
^ Some pics of the Gorshkov in Russia

http://sevmash.ru/images/bn0032.jpg
^ Indian delegation

http://www.forceindia.net/images/Admiral-Gorshkov.jpg
^ Another view of the Gorshkov-after-refit model

India has had experience with catapults on the INS Vikrant, and operated both Bréguet Alizés and Hawker Sea Hawk. This was removed and the ski jump added in the 1980s when the Sea Harriers replaced them.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Articles/Alize06.jpg
^ An Alizé on a catapults ready to take off

There was initial rumors of a steam catapult, but it was rejected in favor of the ski jump, due to space constraints. Also, the rejection of the larger Su-33 in favor of the -29K probably was the clincher. But regardless, there really is no need for a catapult, as the Harriers, MiG-29Ks, and the naval-varient of the Tejas can operate with ski jumps.

Besides, the Russians never really cared for catapults, anyway.


Hellfish6,
Yup! The IN will operate an upgraded version of the MiG-29K (Indian/French/Israeli avionics and electronics similar to Su-30MKI, N011M Bars radar, all-glass cockpit, etc.) in tandem with the naval varient of the LCA. Harriers may operate on her for a while, but they most likely will serve on the INS Viraat until her decomissioning.

http://www.forceindia.net/images/MiG-29K.jpg
^ MiG-29K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4452/LCA11.jpg
^ Naval Tejas (LCA)

The -29Ks will be delivered by 2006, and the NLCA by 2009. The NLCA will mainly be the grunt on India's indigenous ADS (Air Defense Ship) carriers, of which two, upto four, may eventually be built (one already under construction.)

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/3504/ADS21.jpg
^ ADS


It's known that America has put feelers out to India for a potential export of a version of the Aegis defense system in the future, but nothing more is really known about this offer. However, India does operate advanced phased array radars on her ships; a more modern version of the Top Plate radar the Talwar class, upgraded version of the same on the Project 17 class missile frigates, the Elta phased array on the Godaviris, Fregats on the Delhis, an upgraded version of the same on the Bangalores, etc. But, of course, radar an Aegis does not itself make. IN is said to be developing 'similar' control computers and systems, but your guess is as good as mine about these.


Apart from the old Polnochnys, as TheKiwi and Perdurabo mentioned, the IN also has several old "Mark-3s" LSTs. The IN is inducting several Magar class LSTs that, as TheKiwi referred to, are based on the RN Sir Lancelot design.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Magar1.jpg
^ INS Magar

India is also building three indigenous LST-L (Landing Ship for Tanks - Large) of yet unnamed class, with more on order. These will have the ability to carry 11 main battle tanks, 10 army vehicles and 500 troops, as well as being able to 2 helicopters (either Sea Kings or Dhruvs.) No pics are easily available of these, though.


India doesn't have a Marine Corps, per se, but it does have what is called the Marine Commando Force or MARCOS, which specializes in maratime special ops/CT and is classified as a SOF unit, several battalions in strength.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines2.jpg
^ MarCos.

The Indian Army has certain formations that are tasked with amphibious operations and beach landings. I'm do not know exactly which units or how many troops, but judging from operations conducted in IPKF, at least an armored regiment and infantry division in size.

It has been announced that an entire regiment of MarCos will be raised in the next couple years, which suggests at least 7000 troops in size. I am not sure whether this MarCos regiment will be strictly remain a SOF or whether they will be have the role of a "marine corps" with special-operations capable units. There has been talk of raising a USMC-like unit that will serve as a rapidly-deployable force, so this may be the first step.


Bluezoo,
The entire deal is approx $1.5 billion, but that includes more than just the Gorshkov itself. In fact, as part of the negotiations, the Russians gave India the Gorshkov for free, but India would have to pay for a Russian refit, plus 12-30 MiG-29Ks plus the associated training, infrastructure, etc. which accounts for much of the deal.


Cheers,
Raj

[Iron]

iam i right if i say that india has a quiet strong army now , or will have in the near future ????

[CG51]

hmmmm...a navy to rival china's interest in that region... p-)

[sheroo]

hmmmm...a navy to rival china's interest in that region... p-)

Nope a Navy to protect India's interests

[CG51]

so china is not a threat to india? didn't china steal alot of land from india in the 60's?

[ronin2172]

so china is not a threat to india? didn't china steal alot of land from india in the 60's?
yea china and india have an ongoing border dispute and i do believe they have skirmished on occasion. China is also pakistan's closest ally (they even design some weapon systems together). Then add in the fact they r the two biggest guys on the block; india would not want to see china gain influence or even gain control over the important shipping lanes that run through the area

[rajkhalsa]

Its been officially confirmed! Gorshkov will enter service as INS Vikramaditya.

An Official Press Information Bureau Release (http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=6543):

The Naval Chief also visited the Motivation Hall, the Flag Area, Ship Modeling Room, Aero Modeling Room and interacted with the cadets freely. The CNS also presented a CNS rolling trophy which is a silver replica of new aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Gorshkov) acquired by Indian Navy from Russia. This rolling trophy will be given to the best Senior Wing Naval Cadet of NCC during Prime Minister Rally held on Jan 27, every year.

woot

[Lokos]

My personal opinion is that Russia and India are creating a sort of counterweight to China. The Russo-Indian alliance is a far more viable affair than any Russo-Chinese alliance. And most definitely more viable than a Sino-Indian alliance.

Since India is a rising power, Russia will arm her, so as to maintain a balance of power in which China is not totally dominant.

All of this is, of course, conventionally speaking.

And congrats on the carrier, it looks great.

Regards,
Lokos

[sheroo]

My personal opinion is that Russia and India are creating a sort of counterweight to China. The Russo-Indian alliance is a far more viable affair than any Russo-Chinese alliance. And most definitely more viable than a Sino-Indian alliance.

Since India is a rising power, Russia will arm her, so as to maintain a balance of power in which China is not totally dominant.

All of this is, of course, conventionally speaking.

And congrats on the carrier, it looks great.

Regards,
Lokos

It doesn't seem so. Right now all it seems is that the russians are going after some hard currency. There have been reports of their being discord between the Indian and Russians regarding military hardware purchase. The Indian wants tech transfer to mate some of the russian systems with their indegenous hardware or israeli stuff where as the russians fear that their monopoly in the Indian market may get eroded for that. Right now the russians are also selling Su-30s, subs etc to the chinese. There were reports a few days ago that they had even threatened to offer some of the hardware to the Pakis if India did not go along with the high ticket items

[GazB]

The Indian wants tech transfer to mate some of the russian systems with their indegenous hardware or israeli stuff where as the russians fear that their monopoly in the Indian market may get eroded for that.

India has always tried to keep away from any monopoly source of military hardware and have always tried to get production rights for most of its weapons. The Indians have Israeli and French equipment in the Su-30MKIs and the Russians had no problem with that. Of course the integration has delayed the introduction of the Su-30 into Indian service but integration can't happen over night.

Regarding the catapault issue these are only really required for heavy aircraft like AEW planes. As the new Indian carrier will use Ka-31 AEW helicopters this is not an issue. With no catapault to set up and reset two aircraft can be launched nearly simultaneously from the two positions vivsble in the photo above. At max weights the Mig-29K will use the rear launch position but for most air defence roles the forward launch position would suffice.

[sheroo]

India has always tried to keep away from any monopoly source of military hardware and have always tried to get production rights for most of its weapons. The Indians have Israeli and French equipment in the Su-30MKIs and the Russians had no problem with that. Of course the integration has delayed the introduction of the Su-30 into Indian service but integration can't happen over night.

You are right, but this is the first time the Indian have wanted to integrated systems from two different countries. Initially the russians did not have any problems but as it started for more and more systems, including in the navy with the Barak systems they have started making a lot of noise.

[Zoomie]

What's the deal with the ski slope at the end of the deck?

[LordHalbert]

The ski slope allows some of the forward velocity to be converted into vertical velocity. This allows for shorter take offs. Without it, you would need a longer deck.

[Hellfish]

Outstanding info - thank you!

It sounds like India is going to become a much more proactive force in the region (and world) with these new carriers and expanded amphibious capability. I wish you luck!

Out of curiosity, what is considered to be India's primary maritime threat? They seem to have almost total dominance in the Indian Ocean already (save for the US battle groups in transit to the Persian Gulf). Is the US seen as a threat? China? Pakistan?

Also, how many Backfires are you going to get? I thought I heard only 2, but that seems very low to me.

[rajkhalsa]

Out of curiosity, what is considered to be India's primary maritime threat? They seem to have almost total dominance in the Indian Ocean already (save for the US battle groups in transit to the Persian Gulf). Is the US seen as a threat? China? Pakistan?
Hi Hellfish,
Forgive the very long post. But penning this also is serving to weave the divergent bits of accumulated trivia I have in my head into my own greater understanding of Indias stategic situation. ;)


Pecently, the IN had unveiled its new doctrine. It reflects and reacts to the new world situation and the growing importance of Asia in oil politics.

With exception of the USN, India is the dominant force in the Indian ocean region. Along with its navy, the magnitude of the shore-based IAF and missile forces can virtually deny the region to any surface force from the Malaccas to the Persian gulf. Even a hypothetical USN carrier force would not lightly tangle with this in conventional terms.

From what reseach I have done, I see the IN's role as basically three-fold -- wherein the IN must be capable of fulfilling each of these roles at the same time without compromizing on any of the other of them, viz.:
1. A guaranteer of Indian strategic interests
2. An independantly operateable (from the mainland, that is) instrument of localized force projection anywhere in the IOR
3. And a policeman of free-lanes shipping in the busiest sea lanes in the world.


With regards to the first, India is heavily dependant on foreign oil for its needs. As the Indian economy continues to boom, oil requirements grow exponentially. India's relationship with Iran, UAE, Oman and even speculations in the N. African desert require adaquate security of tankers transiting from the Gulf to India's west coast. It is necessary that IN must be overwhelmingly capable of providing this security, as the Indian economy is dependant on this influx.

Even with pipeline politics and talks of pipelines from through Pakistan from Iran and the CAR, India's strategic supply of petrolium reserves is two weeks --about the time it would take to conduct any war against Pakistan or China. Those two weeks, would see whatever land-based oil lines in Pakistan obviously destroyed. India would then be forced to import its entire petrolium resources through sea-lanes, and the Indian Navy must be in a position, post-war, to protect India's shipping from any threat.

India's strategic requirements don't have to deal with India alone. China, Japan, Korea and even ASEAN members get their oil from the same place, and are even more heavily dependant on the Mid East. The vast majority (we're talking 95+%) of their oil is shipped through the IO and up the S. China sea. The very jugular vein of these countries flows right under India, and unlike India, they are in no position to do anything about it. This is a tremendous --and completely overlooked-- strategic advantage India holds over these nations.

Obviously, the only potential enemy India has with these nations is China, whose energy need requirements are in an even more critical position than India. Its pipeline projects basically all are based out of Pakistan. Even with these, the vast majority of its oil will continue to be shipped from the ME. And even the Pakistan-pipelines require shipping oil/lng from there to Pakistan in any case. The pipelines can easily be neutralized by IAF/IA. IN's role is to deny the Chinese navy access to the region, and interdict its shipping by IN's overwhelming regionalized superiority.

Any PLAN (or other navy's for that matter) increase in procurment/deployment to the IOR will be matched by IN force increase/deployments, so this superiority remains. The likely aquisition of Tu-22M3s from Russia in the next year or so will act as a strategic, long-range standoff platform with which, for example, massive E. Asian fleet entering the IOR will be hard-pressed to counter (especially given the geography of the Indonesian, etc. archipelagoes)


With regard to the second point, force-projection, what the Tsunami disaster basically displayed to the surprised world the speed, size and effectiveness of IN's deployability to troublespots in the region. India, being that its a regional superpower strategically unconstrained in its natural sphere of influence --(unlike, for example, China which is contained by strong and hostile littoral nations like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, which as well have US backing)-- has a vested interest in the surrounding states and has the ability to intervene, humanitarianly or otherwise, as was displayed with the Indian Peacekeeping Force in SL and the put-down of the invasion of the Maldives in the 80s, and by the Tsunami deployments now.

Pakistan presents no naval threat to the IN, and land-based resources are itself able to neutralize them. IN will have a supporting role (as 1971 war showed) but these will be limited to speedy missile boats and patroling vessels. The meat of IN deployment -- and where IN's capital deployments will be against Pakistan -- is that of blockade of its shoreline. India's mobilization following the Pakistani-backed terrorist attack on India's Parliament showed that this can easily be done.

Another goal of this is the ability to land troops in nearby trouble spots. The intital landings of IPKF in SL was done mostly by air, and then only after ports were secured. While IAF is going hellstrong on strategic transport capability (that itself another topic), IN is concentrating on having the ability to conduct forced landings in hostile territory. Potenial targets: Pakistan (unlike in the previous wars, Indian conventional superiority now allows India to not only fight on the border, but literally to establish a beach head in Balochistan directly to create another front bypassing traditional defended borders, and supply this front quite at want); Sri Lanka (intervening in the civil war); or Burma (any full-scale India-China war will have the PLA streaming through the Burmese jungles around the Himalay.

The fact that India has started the increase of the Marine Commando Force to regimental-plus size is telling.


The third, policing the seas is the most benign, and where there is considerable convergence with US and allies (UK, Japan, ASEAN) interest. It is in India's greatest interest that freedom of the seas is maintained around her. Piracy remains a very bad problem in SE Asia, where the hundreds of thousands of islands make for policing difficult. There is also a growing problem around Bengal and Lanka of piracy.

There is also a military reason. The rapidly growing India-US friendship has been most materially evidently shown --despite it being perhaps the most low-key-- by IN ships routinely escorting USN ships in the IOR. This was especially during the afghanistan invasion, where USN capital ships were otherwise committed.

Also India's benign foreign policy all these years have caused the ASEAN nations to rapidly turning to India as a counterbalance against China, which is seen as hostile, and even to balance America/Australia. IN escorts Singaporean, Thai, Indonesian, Cambodian and Vietnamese commercial and naval ships, as well as Japan, Australian and Korean ships transiting the sealanes there. There is joint patrolling with USN in the area already, and I've heard that Japan is invited, but I think recent developments wrt China would make them shy to stray far from home. Also, because India is a neutral country, Thailand and Indonesia requested India patrol the seaways around their country so America won't have to.

Another (main?) reason behind India's willingness to have a continuous presence in the area is to deter the PLAN from even entering the IOR through sustained forward IN deployments in and monitoring of the region.




iam i right if i say that india has a quiet strong army now , or will have in the near future ????
Hi

I don't think many people really grasp how far the IN has come in recent years. From being a gorified brown-water navy through the 80s, to the 15-year plan from 2002 that will see in little over a decade -- that is, 2017 -- India having 3 carrier battle-group fleets and a fourth around a cruiser comprising upwards of 150 ships and 40 submarines, 30 MR aircraft and helicopters, 60 ASW helicopters and planes, an coast guard tripled in size, induction if indigenous nuclear submarines, and an double increase in IAF size and potency, with many more modern planes capable of long-distance ASh roles (including by that time at least sqn strength Backfires, and 4 sqn MKIs which also have standoff long-range nuclear/missile capabilites.)

What's also significant is that as IN's strength increases, it will see greater cooperation and inter-operability with USN and allied navies, especially in the Gulf and SE Asia.

Cheers,
Raj

[rajkhalsa]

Oh yeah, and here's a pic :)

The christening of INS Shivalik, the first of the 'Project-17' class guided missile destroyers.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/shivalik/port-2.jpg

It is not completed (will be in 2006), but IN follows the RN tradition of christening ships when the hulls can be launched.


The INS Shivalik is the nameship of the of the P-17 class (Shivalik class.) The P-17s are basically an upgraded, indigenized and enlarged version of the Talwar (upgraded Krivak III class) guided missile destroyer.

P-17 speculative drawing:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Project17d.jpg

There are structural changes compared to the Talwars (modified superstructure, antenna array, etc), which along with the incorporation of far more composite materials,and both active and passive radar/IR cancelling technologies, will significantly reduce its radar signature. The P-17 will also have two helicopters (vs. 1 on the Talwar) -- most likely naval variants of the HAL Dhruvs,-- more powerful and quieter engines, and a rather eclectic (and formidable) mix of Indian, Russian, Israeli and Italian radars and a larger weapons load as well.

Naval Dhruv:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/ALH-4.jpg

It carries the Kashtan CIWS, the Kashmir SAM (upgraded Shtil) and also/instead the next-generation Barak-II SAM system being developed by Israel and India. It will also carry the BrahMos ASCM and have the capability to carry the Klub-N.

Basically, what we're with the rapid expansion the IN is not only a growing numerical force, but newer ships that carry quite a punch themselves, as well as older (but still new) ships being retrofitted with extremely advanced, yet affordable weaponry as soon as the technologies swiftly become developed. Retrofitting the IN fleet to carry the BrahMos itself will literally expand its already capabilities several fold.

-Raj

[ElHombre]

great pics & info, folks. my thanks. :) it's a great read.

[ZaakM433]

the Talwar looks nice

[Hellfish]

Awesome post, Raj. Thank you very much for the time you took to write it. It answers a lot of my questions. :D

[TheKiwi]

The INS Vikramaditya looks like it will be a sweet ship. How likely (as opposed to planned) is it that the new Indian fighter will be on board too?

[platform389]

The ski slope allows some of the forward velocity to be converted into vertical velocity. This allows for shorter take offs. Without it, you would need a longer deck.

...with the tradeoff of being hard on the plane and the pilot. Cat shots are the best way.

The new magnetic rail catapult system being developed for the US CVN(X) will offer all the advantages without the problems of steam currently being used.

More info at links

http://www.edn.com/article/CA207108.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/emals.htm

[rajkhalsa]

Hi


The INS Vikramaditya looks like it will be a sweet ship. How likely (as opposed to planned) is it that the new Indian fighter will be on board too?
Well, the Admiral Gorshkov/Vikramaditya sale was a package deal that included MiG-29Ks that will serve as the workhorse of the ship. Russia pressed very hard on the matter as RSK-MiG was literally dependant on the contract to stay afloat. They will be based on the AG/VA

The Tejas is about 2/3 way through development right now, and will enter production in the 2008-9 timeframe. The naval variant of the aircraft is concurrently under devleopment, and a prototype will probably be developed in a couple years. It would enter service around 2009-2010

http://img228.exs.cx/img228/3442/image20ws.jpg

http://img228.exs.cx/img228/5412/image48wm.jpg

The N-Tejas is to equip India's indigenous aircraft carriers, rather euphemistically right now called the Air Defense Ship (ADS).


ADS weighs 37,500 tons, is 252m x 52m in length and has a top speed of 28 knots. It will have a STOBAR arrangement and a crew of 1,200.

http://img228.exs.cx/img228/8864/image25xt.jpg
^ Here is a released image of the original 32k ton design. The ship was revised considerably, made larger and having a different superstructure

http://img228.exs.cx/img228/6124/image22mk.jpg
^ Is an artists impression of the new design

The ship will enter service in the 2009-2010 timeframe. It will carry the N-Tejas, HAL Dhruv, and perhaps Ka-31 AEW helicopters as well.


Cheers,
Raj

[Migman]

No Mig-29Ks on ADS, correct?

[rajkhalsa]

Most likely not.

N-Tejas will enter service before ADS is commissioned

[rajkhalsa]

Originally posted by J-10

India to get MiG-29 for aircraft carrier in 2007
Friday, 04 February , 2005, 20:17

Moscow: India would start receiving 16 MiG-29k fighters from Russia in 2007 for deployment on aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov" undergoing refit.

Russia's MiG Corporation has been developing 12 carrier-based MiG-29K single seater fighters with multi-role capabilities and four twin-seater MiG-29KUB combat-***-trainer aircraft as a part of the $1.5 billion Gorshkov deal signed in January 2004.

"The serial production of the planes has already commenced, the work is moving ahead strictly per-schedule," Director General of RAC MiG, Alexei Fedorov told reporters in Moscow, allaying fears about a delay in the deliveries due to financial problems of the corporation.

Fedorov, who has been the pointman in the successful implementation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI deal, was appointed MiG chief last year by the Russian government to salvage MiG-29K deal with India.

"The fact that we have received second tranche of the advance payment from the Indian government is an indication that things are moving ahead strictly on schedule," he said.

"The representatives of the customer (Indian Navy and Ministry of Defence) have access to MiG design bureau and production units to constantly monitor the implementation of the deal," Fedorov added.

Russia is to complete the deliveries of the MiG-29K jets in 2009.
[/quote]http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13663332

[Migman]

Sweet, can't wait for photos.

[rajkhalsa]

Whoh, the process seems to have been sped up a bit!

The first MiG-29K(UB) trainers will start arriving in late 2005

MiG-29s for Admiral Gorshkov to start arriving this year
[from defenseindia; no direct url]

Panaji, April 12, 2005 (UNI)

The state-of-the-art MiG-29 fighters, for accomodation aboard the retrofitted aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, will start arriving by the end of this year.

''Staff is currently undergoing training on the aircraft, which will operate from the Goa Naval Base until the carrier arrives,'' Western Naval Command's Flag Officer Commanding in Chief Vice Admiral Madanjit Singh today told a group of visiting mediapersons at INS Hansa here on the sidelines of the ongoing 25-day marathon naval exercises off the Goa coast.

Each MiG-29 costs US dollars 32 million.

Admiral Gorshkov, which has the capacity to accommodate 32 aircraft, would be based at the new state-of-the-art 'Sea Bird' Naval Base coming up at Karwar in north Karnataka, he said.

Apart from the MiGs, the carrier will accommodate Sea Harriers and Light Combat Aircraft. The Navy would receive a further boost after induction of the state-of-the-art indigenous Air Defence Ship whose construction has begun at the Kochi shipyard, Vice Admiral Singh said.

The strategically-located Karwar Naval Base, with 6000-ft runway as against 11,000 ft in Goa, is aimed at easing congestion at the Mumbai Naval Base and can accommodate 3000 sailors and 300 officers and scores of civilians.

Other related news
Goa naval base to be ready for MiG-29Ks (http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=68294)

US offers to train Indian Navy for Adm Gorshkov (http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=68255)

It's also been disclosed that the MiG-29K is also undergoing an 'MKIization' process as well. With Russian and Indian engineers apparently working out modifications in the a/c involving moving wing fold inboard to the wing root and folding the tail stabilators to reduce overall stowage space. This will allow up to 24 MiG-29Ks in addition to Sea Harriers, and helicopters.


Here is an artist's impression of the MiG-29K in IN colors:
http://img117.echo.cx/img117/3629/mig29k17cq.jpg

The artist is correct in assuming the 29Ks will be painted in the same low-vis camo as IN's Harriers that works so well in operations on the Indian Ocean. However, he has incorrectly given this squadron markings from INAS 300 White Tigers squadron, which operates the Sea Harrier, implying the SHARs will be phased out.

However, it has also been confirmed that India's Sea Harriers are going through a comprehensive upgrade, including installation of the new generation "Tarang" RWR, known as the "Roshini", a new Elta EL/M-2032 radar and induction of Rafael Derby BVRAAMs.

The Gorshkov will be fitted with a complement of MiG-29Ks, as well as upgraded SHARs. The Naval LCA is now confirmed to be slated for the indigenous carrier, which will be inducted in 2012. This first ADS will carry a complement of -29Ks and NLCAs.

Cheers,
Raj

[Bluezoo]

Very interesting. Congratulations to India! :D

[V/E]

Great post, very interesting reading!

[rajkhalsa]

India is also building three indigenous LST-L (Landing Ship for Tanks - Large) of yet unnamed class, with more on order. These will have the ability to carry 11 main battle tanks, 10 army vehicles and 500 troops, as well as being able to 2 helicopters (either Sea Kings or Dhruvs.) No pics are easily available of these, though.

I have an update on the above. The first of the three LST-Ls has just been completed and commissioned as INS Kesari. The initial order of 3 is reported to have been expanded because of the success of this project.

http://img145.echo.cx/img145/26/530366186uj.jpg

http://img145.echo.cx/img145/8038/530366183nt.jpg


Cheers,
Raj

[rajkhalsa]

Hi guys

I got another update, this time on India's mysterious next-gen Project 28 (P-28) ASW corvette to be deisgned and built by GSRE.


Firstly, this article (http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_19753.shtml) gives a complete rundown of the latest Indo-Russian projects that came to surface, no pun intended, after the 2nd International Naval & Defence Show (IMDS-2005) that was held in St Petersburg, just recently. I'll post the most relevant developments.


1. Foremost among them, the design of the P-28. Supposedly 6-8 of these will be inducted, and plate-cutting has already started on the first, but the design and armament were not public knowlege until now.

The Russian Severnoye Design Bureau confirmed that the P-28 will be derived from from the Russian Project 20382 design, in an MKI-like project, where the platform will be Russian, and most major systems will be customized.

The P-28s will each displace 1,800 tonnes, are 94 m in length, 13m in beam, and 3.5 m in draught. Its CODAG propulsion system, comprising twin gas turbines, twin diesel engines and twin diesel generators will drive two-shaft, controllable-pitch propellers. The corvette will have a maximum speed of 27 Knots, range of 4,000nm, endurance of 15 days and a crew compliment of 85. The helicopter deck will be able to house either the dipping sonar-equipped Ka-28PL or Naval Dhruv.

The armaments package will comprise one eight-cell vertical launched Klub-N 220km-range supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, one OTOBreda 76/62 main gun, twin 12-barrelled RBU-6000 ASW mortar launchers, twin ILAS triple-tube torpedo launchers for launching Franco-Italian MU-90 lightweight torpedoes, and one 16-cell Israeli Barak-1 VLS anti-missile defence system. The Barak Weapon System seems to be the favored missile, over the Shtil, in newer IN ships.

http://tinypic.com/bfnwu8.jpg

http://tinypic.com/bfnwxc.jpg

The P-28 will look derived from the above, most noticeable difference of course being the AK-630s replaced by Barak, the Kashtan by the Klub VLS, addition of BrahMos, and there is speculation that the P-28 will have the aft helo deck with a hangar as well, as IN likes multi-helo capability for its new ships, especially ASW platforms. Most likely these would consist of two indigenous HAL Dhruv ASWs, as they are a capable but smaller platform than the Ka-28 and the Seakings.


2. The BrahMos supersonic multirole cruise missile (MRCM) will definitely be installed on each of the IN's three Project 15A Bangalore class guided-missile destroyers in 16-cell VL silos, as stated earlier in this thread.

It is also now being installed in twin inclined quad launchers and in an eight-cell vertical launch silo (again, 16 launcers) on the 5 Rajput class (modified Kashin II) DDGs.

http://tinypic.com/bfnx4p.jpg
^ INS Rajput

...and will also be installed in 8-cell VL silos the IN's three Project 17 guided-missile frigates, all of which have already been launched and are now being fitted out by Mazagon Docks Ltd! (See earlier in the thread.)

...and also both had modified the Amur 1650 SSK's design to both an 8-cell vertical launcher for the BrahMos, as well as an air-independent propulsion system! India will most likely buy 1-2 Amurs initially, within the next 2 years.


Cheers,
Raj

[ElHombre]

that ship looks to be a little large to be called a corvette. ;)

a quick question, the Tejas plane? how do you ****ounce it? in my neck of the woods, Tejas (****ounced TAY-HAAS) is the spanish word for texas.

[Hellfish]

Is the Amur 1650 a modernized Kilo?

Also, any news on India's development on an SSN?

[Baltic]

Somebody should check the spelling :)

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6066/12ww4vw.jpg

[bloddyaxe]

Somebody should check the spelling :)

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6066/12ww4vw.jpg

you mean they forgot the R ?

OMFG LOL!111!!one p-)

[JoaMei]

I have a question about non american Carriers in general and those russian origin in detail:

What Planes/Helos do they use for early warning(AWACS) duty, electronic warfare, aerial refuelling, transport, submarine hunting? American carriers have specialized Planes for all these Tasks.

[rajkhalsa]

Hi,

Hmm... imageshack is spotty today. I'm reuploading the images to tinypic.


Hellfish6,

Is the Amur 1650 a modernized Kilo?

Also, any news on India's development on an SSN?
The Amur 1650 is an India-oriented export derviation of the Russian Project 677 diesel electric submarine, and can be considered the modern Kilo.

It's rather smaller than the Kilo, has modern systems and computers, supposedly more silent by a factor of ten, and has the ability to launch cruise missiles, namely BrahMos. It is designed for littoral deployment and is limited in role. The article above confirms that it will be fitted with AIP.

http://tinypic.com/bfnwn7.jpg

Basically, this submarine is a direct contender to the IN probable procurement of 6 Scorpene diesel-electric AIP submarines from France. This deal will likely go through within the next year, but negotiations on price have been bitter and the whole procurement episode has left a bitter taste in the INs mouth. Russia and Germany had made an offer to install German technology (of HDW type 212/214) on the Amur in a bid to scuttle the Scorpene deal. Likely, though, IN may either scale back the Scorpene order, and/or go for Amurs later on.


Russia is also heavy selling -- sorry, the long term "leasing" of -- two Akula class SSN, and while nothing is offiical both Russian and Indian industry media have reported that this is pretty much a done deal. Some russian shipbuilding company presidents have even linked the Amur deal to the Gorshkov refit.

India's own nuclear submarine program, for years euphemistically called the ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel), has a couple months ago been offiically confirmed to be in existance. It was widely reported that Russia's helping with the powerplant. It was also reported in the Russian industry press that it could even resemble the Akula. Even America apparently gave muted willing support to this program (as both countries have concurrent security interests) by specifically allowing 'duel-use' submarine-related technologies to be able to be sold to India in that major partnership agreement a short while back. What exactly that entails, I have no idea.

This news, coupled with specific weapons systems and technologies developed by India (BrahMos sub-launched capability, various nuclear-reactor related technologies that I read news about but am not qualitfied to explain, etc.) made it pretty clear that a nuclear sub is due to come out within the next couple years. We may see the following:
1. The modified Akulas on "long-term lease" in IN until the end of its life, where its "returned" to Russia and scrapped.

2. Akulas leased, and IN crews trained and familiarized with the type until ATV officially gets inducted, whereupon Akulas returned to Russia as ATVs get churned out.

3. Akulas leased to end of life AND ATVs concurrently being inducted.

My bet is on #2. The Akulas slated for possible IN induction were only partially completed and mothbolled, but supposedly will be fitted with the latest tech. ATV will be new build, and presumably more indigenized, and will likely see longer-use.

Hope that answers your question :)


ElHombre,
Tejas (Sanskrit for "radience") is ****ounced "Té-jahz" (the "ah" sounding similar to "o" in "octagon")

The western media initially was very confused on this matter when the name came out, which was compounded by one of the ADA spokesmen who, in reference to the name confusion, made the unfortunate joke "don't mess with Tejas", which only compounded confusion. :lol:

Just prounounce the "j" and you'll be fine ;)


Baltic,
What does it say? :) I think it was an image capture from the IMDS website.


Joamei,

I have a question about non american Carriers in general and those russian origin in detail:

What Planes/Helos do they use for early warning(AWACS) duty, electronic warfare, aerial refuelling, transport, submarine hunting? American carriers have specialized Planes for all these Tasks.
Well, I can tell you about the IN, which uses about 1/2 Russian, 1/2 Western aircraft.

AWACS:
No Hawkeye-like system. The IN was looking to buy and the Americans were looking to sell the E-2C to India, but apparently the aircraft were incompatable with ski-jump carriers. Extensive mods could have been made, but it would have reduced the overall flying time too much.

http://img186.exs.cx/img186/3162/18fj.jpg
^ Instaed, the IN uses Kamov Ka-31 AEW helicopters integrated with IN ships and bases own radars for this role, giving the ships considerably more detection power than alone.


Electronic Warfare:
The IN uses Tu-142s, and ELINT modified Do-228s for this role.

http://img19.exs.cx/img19/6528/12zj.jpg
^ IN Bear

The Sea Harriers have been fitted with Elta jamming pods, the same kind on the F-16I Sufa.


Aerial Refuelling:
IN doesn't have a dedicated aerial refueller. The IN operates a Il-78MKI, which has operated over the ocean on deployments, and exercises have proven, can take Sea Harriers, and of course, the MiG-29Ks will be capable of this as well.

Transport:
IN uses Do-228s, HAL Dhruvs and Sea Kings for this role

Submarine hunting:
Tu-142s, Il-38s, HAL Dhruvs, KA-28s, HAL Chetaks and BAe Sea Kings.

http://img187.echo.cx/img187/3761/17lm.jpg
^ Sea King

[JoaMei]

Thank you, but perhaps my question was not detailed enough. I meant only carrier based.

[rajkhalsa]

For carrier based, all of those helos, none of the a/c ;)

[mr nuff nuff man]

As an added bonus, here's the much awaited pic of India's project 15A Bangalore Class destroyer. Overall, a leaner, meaner INS Delhi class, packing quite a punch with 16(!) VL BrahMos supersonic ASCMs:

added bonus? - are you selling here something? much awaited pic? - who was waiting for it again?

[mr nuff nuff man]

Hi,

Hmm... imageshack is spotty today. I'm reuploading the images to tinypic.


Hellfish6,

Is the Amur 1650 a modernized Kilo?

Also, any news on India's development on an SSN?
The Amur 1650 is an India-oriented export derviation of the Russian Project 677 diesel electric submarine, and can be considered the modern Kilo.

It's rather smaller than the Kilo, has modern systems and computers, supposedly more silent by a factor of ten, and has the ability to launch cruise missiles, namely BrahMos. It is designed for littoral deployment and is limited in role. The article above confirms that it will be fitted with AIP.

http://tinypic.com/bfnwn7.jpg

Basically, this submarine is a direct contender to the IN probable procurement of 6 Scorpene diesel-electric AIP submarines from France. This deal will likely go through within the next year, but negotiations on price have been bitter and the whole procurement episode has left a bitter taste in the INs mouth. Russia and Germany had made an offer to install German technology (of HDW type 212/214) on the Amur in a bid to scuttle the Scorpene deal. Likely, though, IN may either scale back the Scorpene order, and/or go for Amurs later on.


Russia is also heavy selling -- sorry, the long term "leasing" of -- two Akula class SSN, and while nothing is offiical both Russian and Indian industry media have reported that this is pretty much a done deal. Some russian shipbuilding company presidents have even linked the Amur deal to the Gorshkov refit.

India's own nuclear submarine program, for years euphemistically called the ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel), has a couple months ago been offiically confirmed to be in existance. It was widely reported that Russia's helping with the powerplant. It was also reported in the Russian industry press that it could even resemble the Akula. Even America apparently gave muted willing support to this program (as both countries have concurrent security interests) by specifically allowing 'duel-use' submarine-related technologies to be able to be sold to India in that major partnership agreement a short while back. What exactly that entails, I have no idea.

This news, coupled with specific weapons systems and technologies developed by India (BrahMos sub-launched capability, various nuclear-reactor related technologies that I read news about but am not qualitfied to explain, etc.) made it pretty clear that a nuclear sub is due to come out within the next couple years. We may see the following:
1. The modified Akulas on "long-term lease" in IN until the end of its life, where its "returned" to Russia and scrapped.

2. Akulas leased, and IN crews trained and familiarized with the type until ATV officially gets inducted, whereupon Akulas returned to Russia as ATVs get churned out.

3. Akulas leased to end of life AND ATVs concurrently being inducted.

My bet is on #2. The Akulas slated for possible IN induction were only partially completed and mothbolled, but supposedly will be fitted with the latest tech. ATV will be new build, and presumably more indigenized, and will likely see longer-use.

Hope that answers your question :)


ElHombre,
Tejas (Sanskrit for "radience") is ****ounced "Té-jahz" (the "ah" sounding similar to "o" in "octagon")

The western media initially was very confused on this matter when the name came out, which was compounded by one of the ADA spokesmen who, in reference to the name confusion, made the unfortunate joke "don't mess with Tejas", which only compounded confusion. :lol:

Just prounounce the "j" and you'll be fine ;)


Baltic,
What does it say? :) I think it was an image capture from the IMDS website.


Joamei,

I have a question about non american Carriers in general and those russian origin in detail:

What Planes/Helos do they use for early warning(AWACS) duty, electronic warfare, aerial refuelling, transport, submarine hunting? American carriers have specialized Planes for all these Tasks.
Well, I can tell you about the IN, which uses about 1/2 Russian, 1/2 Western aircraft.

AWACS:
No Hawkeye-like system. The IN was looking to buy and the Americans were looking to sell the E-2C to India, but apparently the aircraft were incompatable with ski-jump carriers. Extensive mods could have been made, but it would have reduced the overall flying time too much.

http://img186.exs.cx/img186/3162/18fj.jpg
^ Instaed, the IN uses Kamov Ka-31 AEW helicopters integrated with IN ships and bases own radars for this role, giving the ships considerably more detection power than alone.


Electronic Warfare:
The IN uses Tu-142s, and ELINT modified Do-228s for this role.

http://img19.exs.cx/img19/6528/12zj.jpg
^ IN Bear

The Sea Harriers have been fitted with Elta jamming pods, the same kind on the F-16I Sufa.


Aerial Refuelling:
IN doesn't have a dedicated aerial refueller. The IN operates a Il-78MKI, which has operated over the ocean on deployments, and exercises have proven, can take Sea Harriers, and of course, the MiG-29Ks will be capable of this as well.

Transport:
IN uses Do-228s, HAL Dhruvs and Sea Kings for this role

Submarine hunting:
Tu-142s, Il-38s, HAL Dhruvs, KA-28s, HAL Chetaks and BAe Sea Kings.

http://img187.echo.cx/img187/3761/17lm.jpg
^ Sea King


out of all that you have described how does it all accumilate to half Russian half US? I think you only mentioned US Sea King, is it that large to make up for half of your Navy or maybe you have 50 of them?

[mr nuff nuff man]

oh I get it, one Sea King must cost as much as half of your Navy of Russian bought equipment.

[rajkhalsa]

Should I even bother to reply to a banned troll? :roll:

I said half-Russian, half-Western aircraft, you stupid jag. If you look at the platforms I mentioned, and, here's something, *ahem*, count them, you'll see what I mean

For those to lazy enough to bother.
Russian a/c
MiG-29K
Tu-142
Il-38
Ka-31
Ka-28

Western
Sea Harrier
Do-228
Sea King
HAL Chetak
HAL Dhruv (French engine)

Happy, genius?

Now please reach in that gaping hole in your ass, grab and remove the bug and stop spamming my thread. Thanks.

[mr nuff nuff man]

Should I even bother to reply to a banned troll? :roll:

I said half-Russian, half-Western aircraft, you stupid jag. If you look at the platforms I mentioned, and, here's something, *ahem*, count them, you'll see what I mean

For those to lazy enough to bother.
Russian a/c
MiG-29K
Tu-142
Il-38
Ka-31
Ka-28

Western
Sea Harrier
Do-228
Sea King
HAL Chetak
HAL Dhruv (French engine)

Happy, genius?

Now please reach in that gaping hole in your ass, grab and remove the bug and stop spamming my thread. Thanks.

Wow, tough little Indian. You said half US half Russian. Incase you dont understand US does not equal West. Next.
So which ones of these are US? Sea Harrier and Sea King. Do is german
HALs i believe are Indian. Even if you put the 2 US and 1 German aircrafts does that still equal to Russian equipment? Your insults make you look even more pathetic

[mr nuff nuff man]

Dont forget to add Russian submarines to your list when you reply to me.

[brigadeotg]

lol :lol: give it up Raj.. This guy is a klutz. See I did'nt even know we had flying submarines from Russia. :lol:

[mr nuff nuff man]

lol :lol: give it up Raj.. This guy is a klutz. See I did'nt even know that we had flying submarines from Russia. :lol:

yes you are right, i noticed now that he was talking about aircrafts and he did say Western. The joke is on me, but raj is still an idiot.

[rajkhalsa]

Ahem. I said:

Well, I can tell you about the IN, which uses about 1/2 Russian, 1/2 Western aircraft.
Now **** off. This is my last post to you.

[brigadeotg]

lol :lol: give it up Raj.. This guy is a klutz. See I did'nt even know that we had flying submarines from Russia. :lol:

yes you are right, i noticed now that he was talking about aircrafts and he did say Western. The joke is on me, but raj is still an idiot.

Lol where is the ROFL icon? I request admins to provide a ROFL icon for instances like these....

And Polish Pizza, you are the idiot and and now I know that you are drunk too... :D :D

[mr nuff nuff man]

Ahem. I said:

Well, I can tell you about the IN, which uses about 1/2 Russian, 1/2 Western aircraft.
Now f*** off. This is my last post to you.

thats great now go clean up your other thread.

[mr nuff nuff man]

lol :lol: give it up Raj.. This guy is a klutz. See I did'nt even know that we had flying submarines from Russia. :lol:

yes you are right, i noticed now that he was talking about aircrafts and he did say Western. The joke is on me, but raj is still an idiot.

Lol where is the ROFL icon? I request admins to provide a ROFL icon for instances like these....

And Polish Pizza, you are the idiot and and now I know that you are drunk too... :D :D

here is the rofl , its Pizda not Pizza rofl

[rajkhalsa]

brigadeotg,

Just don't reply to him. If he continues to spam, I'll get the mods to delete with the problem.

A lot of good photo threads in MP go to hell because of some 12 year old troll. His only object is to stir up replies through his moronic postings, and thus derail the thread.

Let this be the last post even addressing his presence.

[Kilgor]

My personal opinion is that Russia and India are creating a sort of counterweight to China. The Russo-Indian alliance is a far more viable affair than any Russo-Chinese alliance. And most definitely more viable than a Sino-Indian alliance.


Regards,
Lokos

Something I would agree with Lokos on. Russia and India are going to get friendly and have much to benefit from keeping their main strategic threat under watch. Its definately a win - win for both countries.

[Xtoisè]

My personal opinion is that Russia and India are creating a sort of counterweight to China. The Russo-Indian alliance is a far more viable affair than any Russo-Chinese alliance. And most definitely more viable than a Sino-Indian alliance.


Regards,
Lokos

Something I would agree with Lokos on. Russia and India are going to get friendly and have much to benefit from keeping their main strategic threat under watch. Its definately a win - win for both countries.

Russia is planning to have a military excercise with India, but this doesnt mean that its a counter-measure to China. Russia is planning to have an alliance with both countries to outweight US and its allies. It would be laughable that Russia who is setting up mutual trade with China with use of ruble and yuan as main currencies, joint space developments and continious arms support, to allie against that country.

[rajkhalsa]

Right now, it seems every country is trying to shore up relations with the up and coming powers, even if speaking in strictly military terms. Russia and India, Russia and China, China and India, China and Europe, India and Europe, America and India, Russia and Europe, etc.


Speaking on Rus-India relations, if anything India-Russian cooperation will increase with joint projects. First the MKI, then Brahmos, then Amur, GLONASS, PAK-FA, Amur, MTA, etc., with each project, more and more Indian cooperation and expertise goes into it then just simple funding, and more and more the relationship grows to weapons of more strategic importance.

Russia realizes it can't keep arming China forever. Like India, China will eventualyl become self-sufficiant in arms, probably sooner than India, and unlike India, which Russia enjoys probably the closest non-CIS relationship, China is at best muted hostile. China will eventually exert more and more economic and strategic clout -- and demographic, with a huge population compared to Russia.

Russia can either go economically subserviant to China, and the more they sell them brings them that much closer, or they can throw in with the hyperpower, America, basically finally surrendering after 60 years of rivalry, and again, be economically subserviant, and then economically impotent as Western jobs and economies strips Russia of her true economic asset -- her scientists.

Then the third optino is throwing in with India, the only rival to China in Asia, and really the only other country with the capability to match China's potential man for man, dollar for dollar, culture for culture, PhD for PhD in the future. I mean, really, the economic difference between Indai and China is a mere 15 years.

India and Russia have no stratetgic or tactical cross swords, and both like and respect each other. It is in Russia's interest to wean India away from American friendship, and build her up against China. Unlike with CHina, Russia has no qualm about getting involved with/cooperating on things of the utmost strategic importance to India. The whole world aside, Russia will always make sure to complement Indian weaknesses with her own strengths to see that India maintains that technical edge over Chinese numerical superiority that stalemates the two countries, and prevents CHina from exerting influence over SE, Central, South Asia/IOR and Middle East.

Russia also knows that India's going to cozy up to someone, and it would rather have that with her, rather htan the USA. This would mean, for every ideological/politica/cultural plus point America has with India, Russia will counter with an economic/strategic.

Interesting times ahead... Great Game pt. 2

[Dima-RussianArms]

Interesting speculation rajkhalsa, but you are forgetting one key ingredient - Russian interests/preferences.

Although I do not think, and as you have said, that Russia and India will ever become enemies or rivals (there is simply no grounds for it), their present day closeness will be short lived. And there are multiple reasons for that, but most importantly - India has very little/nothing to offer of political/strategic/economical substance.
Indian weapons marked has its limits, which very soon will be reached and then there is nothing else. And what is the point of courting someone who has no money or not going to buy anything?

China and Russia on other hands have multiple "intersection" points, some of them are potentially explosive ones but nevertheless they provide for "common ground".

India, Indian military to be more precise, was simply the vessel to carry out certain Russian defense companies while they were learning the ropes of the international arms business.
India = sugar daddy, if you will, but there is no love or any other feeling attached.

[Kilgor]

Although I do not think, and as you have said, that Russia and India will ever become enemies or rivals (there is simply no grounds for it), their present day closeness will be short lived. And there are multiple reasons for that, but most importantly - India has very little/nothing to offer of political/strategic/economical substance.
.

They do have millions of low paid, well educated english speaking workers.

[hughdotoh]

politics-wise, i'm all for india, a multi-ethnic, integrated, secular and very democratic society; where people can down the government freely and not get clobbered, and where folk can worship without having any state-sponsorship.

good on india for making old russian systems new again, with licensed-produced as well as indigenously-designed resources.

and i particularly like the "No Problem! Ho Jayega!" mentality of indians, which makes them worthy of all respect.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Although I do not think, and as you have said, that Russia and India will ever become enemies or rivals (there is simply no grounds for it), their present day closeness will be short lived. And there are multiple reasons for that, but most importantly - India has very little/nothing to offer of political/strategic/economical substance.
.

They do have millions of low paid, well educated english speaking workers.
I am not sure if you were just stating the fact or being condescending to indians...

In any case: what does it do for Russia?

[Xtoisè]

or they can throw in with the hyperpower, America, basically finally surrendering after 60 years of rivalry, and again, be economically subserviant, and then economically impotent as Western jobs and economies strips Russia of her true economic asset -- her scientists.

This has already happened and results are fall of Communism in Russia.

[Kilgor]

I am not sure if you were just stating the fact or being condescending to indians...

In any case: what does it do for Russia?

Just stating the facts, and I dont know how it could be considered condescending. What it does for Russia is offer fantastic business opportunities, if they did wish to invest.

But that point is so obvious I dont know why im bothering to state it.

Fact: India and Russia's historical and future rival is China.
Fact: Both countries have been involved in wars or very near conflict with china.
Fact: India is in the best position in the region to contain China.
Fact: India's military is expanding and it seeks modern new arms.

Russia and India are going to make a very happy couple.

[Dima-RussianArms]

What it does for Russia is offer fantastic business opportunities, if they did wish to invest.
Invest in what?

Fact: India and Russia's historical and future rival is China.
"Keep you friends close and enemies even closer"
Fact: Both countries have been involved in wars or very near conflict with china.
So?
Fact: India is in the best position in the region to contain China.
Militarily India doesn't stand a chance against China.
Fact: India's military is expanding and it seeks modern new arms.
That is why India and Russia are close now.

Russia and India are going to make a very happy couple.
As long as India buying Russia hardware

[rajkhalsa]

Interesting speculation rajkhalsa, but you are forgetting one key ingredient - Russian interests/preferences.

Although I do not think, and as you have said, that Russia and India will ever become enemies or rivals (there is simply no grounds for it), their present day closeness will be short lived. And there are multiple reasons for that, but most importantly - India has very little/nothing to offer of political/strategic/economical substance.

Well, I think you adn I are on the same page. I'm limiting my speculation to the next 20 years, and mostly so to the next two-three generations of military equipment and technologies (I'll get to that point later), while you are thinking much longer terms.

Past 20 years, barring a tectonic tragedy that will tilt the world on its head, India and China are going to continually be at loggerheads, America will back India and the E Asian allies, Russia will be friendly to India, true, but will have an economic need to sell to China -- oil, resources, etc. that will in economic/political effect, make Russia subserviant to China. And in all this the EU will play a spoilsport.

I think this is the writing on the wall that every country in the world sees. And thusly they are trying their damnedest to put themselves in a better position to that point. This is the beat of the Russia-India dance.


Perhaps I should expand what my theory is through several pov. Firstly, Russia-India.

As I said before, Russia's only goal wrt India, not only economic (keep the high-end (strategic) defense research and development industries afloat), but also political. In truth, both these goals are two sides of the same coin.

Right now, India enjoys a technological superiorty versus Chinese numerical -- better training, more experience, better weapons, but less of them. It needs to keep this edge in the long term to keep the status-quo dentente. Right now India's own defense industry is coming of age, and requires 10 years more experience to really be self sufficiant. Right now Russia needs $$ to keep their defense industry world-class, in terms of new weapons and systems. Right now Russia is very nervous of selling China strategic systems that can have political ramifcations that can rock the economic boat. Right now (and forever) there will be no strategic disagreement between India and Russia.

Solution to all these problems?: Russia increasingly works with India on more and more advanced and strategic weapons that it cannot risk giving to China and to keep the India-China parity. India wins by having access to latest-generation systems at dirt-cheap that China cannot have, maintianing military parity; India also wins by having their own industries and research companies work hand in hand as co-developers (as opposed to business clients) with next-generation technologies allowing India to leapfrog generations of r&d experience to catch up with China -- (that is a whole other topic, and I can expand on that later.) Russia wins by having someone who can keep their otherwise loss-making industries existing; Russia also wins by not having to sell out to China until it becomes a strategic/economic necessity.


-----==--==-----

Now let me quickly address the relationship between America-India before I go on:

I think a good start would be to post some excerpts from the statement of Ashley J. Tellis Senior Associate, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Committee on House International Relations Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific on June 14, 2005. Sorry I don't have a link, though its available through the Congress online archives.

Mr Tellis is the foremost S. Asia policy advisor to the Bush Administration and one of them under Clinton. His thinking reflects the majority thinking in both the Indian and American establishments and the opinion of everyone with a neutral assessment capability of modern events and future potentials. His views and those of his peers are literally the basis for the India-US roadmap and can be taken as long-term policy fiat. Anyway, here we go:
"Vis-a-vis India, the United States should aim to rapidly complete the transformation in U.S.-Indian relations that has been underway since the final years of the Clinton Administration, and which received dramatic substantive impetus in the first term of President George W. Bush, in order to permanently entrench India in the ranks of America`s friends and allies. With the changes that have occurred both globally and in India since the end of the Cold War, a close bilateral relationship that is based on the strong congruence of interests, values, and inter-societal ties, is in fact possible for the first time in the history of the two countries."

[...]


"India has embarked on a new cycle of military modernization, but unlike the past when autarkic and exclusionary attitudes defined its conception of military power, New Delhi is now comfortable with using its military forces for combined operations with both regional countries and especially with the United States.

All told, then, India`s emergence as a great power that dominates the South Asian and Indian Ocean regions, is now only a matter of time. A strong U.S.-Indian relationship, characterized by robust bilateral cooperation in regards to preserving regional and global order, is emphatically in the interest of both India and the United States

Given India`s large size, proud history, and great ambitions, however, it would be unrealistic to expect that New Delhi would become a formal alliance partner of Washington, even if the current improvement in U.S.-Indian relations were successfully consummated. Rather, India will likely march to the beat of its own drummer, at least most of the time.

I believe that a strong and independent India nevertheless represents a strategic asset to the United States, even when it remains only a partner and not a formal ally.

I think that the administration has reached a similar conclusion correctly in my judgment in its March 25, 2005 statement about assisting the rise of Indian power. This appraisal is rooted in the assessment that there are no intrinsic conflicts of interest between India and the United States and, consequently, transformed ties that enhance the prospect for consistent even if only tacit ``strategic coordination`` between Washington and New Delhi serve American interests just as well as any recognized alliance."

As can be seen, America's long-term interests (and India's) is in strategic harmony. However, in terms of military arms and platforms there is a schism.

Lets take the F-35 episode as an analogy to the whole of Indo-US arms relations. India was offered full stake in the F-35 development as a partner country (along the likes of UK, Japan, Singapore, etc.) This would have fit India's requirement for a next-generation (5th) combat aircraft requirement in the 2010-2015 timeframe. But, India politely turned down the offer and went partnership with Russia for the 5th generation PAK-FA.

Reason for this? Russia offered India a helluva lot more for the PAK-FA program. Rather than simple license rights, Rus offered India co-production, accomadating rather than spurning the Indian defense industry, and Russia offered local assembly line and tech transfer rights.

America on the other hand requried India to abide by stringent tech control regs that would have not fit Indian cross-plaftorm requirements, and no local production. This would have basically shut down India's indigenous defense industry.


That was c. 2000. This is 2005 and and America has now offered India (in currently track-2/3 level diplomacy) AEGIS systems, PAC-3, America's latest exportable aircraft with all the goodies + tech transfer and local production lines complementing Indian defense industry. Strategic concurrance and hence strategic sales to India will only increase in the future.

However, through Russia-India dealing aimed at mutual strengthening, India is locked up (and Russia is locked with India) for the next 20 years in capital weapons systems -- Russia milking India in order to stay economically afloat, India using Russia to deny to the Chinese while fast-tracking indigenous industrial ability.

Meanwhile, EU is selling everything and the kitchen sink to the highest bidder -- India -- while the US is using Isreal as a proxy to shore up India's strategic capability.

Meanwhile, India and China are hugging each other till they pop, economically speaking, harmonizing their own strengths and weaknesses to shore up their own economic power versus the rest of the world, while normalizing relations to keep the India-China conflict as far to the future as possible.

In all, its win-win-win for India.

While Russia, pardon my french and I mean no offense, whores itself out to the biggest john who won't beat her bloody during ***. While China is scrambling to create a viable next-generation platform 20 years after everyone else has one in service and spending ruinious ammounts of money to maintain the even now low tech parity versus US/India/Rus. While America is happily plodding along, wooing India and sneaking more and more strategic goodies that make the Chinese scramble more and more. And while EU is happily dishing out specialized tech to India.


After 20 years, this whole dynamic is going to change. India's defense industry will have the economic size (est. at 1.5 of what China is now (China being 3 times what China is now, so India will in fact be in a better economic position wrt China than it is today)), and the knowlege by working on cutting-edge programs with Russia to be completely self-sufficiant, aided and abbetted by EU, American/Israeli industries in access of other technologies where its lacking.

India will still be in good shape.

China will have an indigenous industry maintained at runious expense to not only keep parity with huge US/Allied strides in the far East, but to match India's growing strenth in the IOR. Added to that remilitarization of Japan, etc.

Russia will by now be more developed, but at the same time less economically significant than it is today, especially in terms of USSR-trained generation of scientists that make Russia #1 in r&d in the world, losing increasingly to India, China, and Latin America. They will feel the breath of the Red Dragon, and feel China's bursting population on Sibera's increasinly empty tracts.

While any attempt by China to take these regions will quickly go nuclear, Chinese commerical investment into these regions will make it moot -- Russia will have to whore itself out to China because it would be the only way to keep their arms industry afloat, and the only way for China to access then modern technology.

The strategic shift from India to China being Russia's strategic partner will solidify India's strategic shift to America as old Russian platforms will be retired, and current Indo-Russian platforms completely indigenized will be the mainstay, and Indo-American platforms will be the future.


And THAT, my Russian friend, is the writing on the wall. And that is why all those countries concerned are doing what they are doing.



I addressed your entire post and some of the latter ones, except this point:

Indian weapons marked has its limits, which very soon will be reached and then there is nothing else. And what is the point of courting someone who has no money or not going to buy anything?
I'm sorry but that is a view completely divorced from reality. The reality is that India's defense capabilities are on a dramatic increase (0 to 4th+ gen aircraft in 15 years(!), 0 to nearly fully indigenized warship in 10(!)) and with her economic might, will continue to do so.

It may be nice to play the part and holler 'India will always be a client of Russia!' on a message board in fitting with your role of Resident Russian, and hence a rep of Russian industrial interests. However, if the induction and indigenization of all major weapons systems and most platforms itself are not a sharp sign of the times, the very fact that Russia is agreeing to increasing Indian co-development (not simply $$, or Rs. as it were, but actual r&d and production at Indian institutions) with every single arms sale from 1997 onward, shows that they know it damn well too, and they're dancing the dance I explained upon at length.


Sorry for the long post,
Raj

[rajkhalsa]

Militarily India doesn't stand a chance against China.
Pardon?

Strategically, no India doesn't stand a chance against China. They have way more warheads and delivery vehicles (missiles, namely) than India. But this simply ain't going to happen. Both countries have a lot, lot more to lose.

In all other respects, India and China have a conventional balance. Even/especially in the air.

Since I'm tired from virtually writing an essay, I'd like you to explain your statement, which like your take on the Indian defense industry, I'm afriad, is completely divorced from reality. Again, it is in your best interests as a pro-Russian on this board to say what you said, but its in my interests as a pro-Indian to call this bluff right now.

-Raj

[NicNZ]

As a casual observer or lurker I am interested to hear the weigh-up of Chinese v Indian military strengths.

[Dima-RussianArms]

sell to China -- oil, resources, etc. that will in economic/political effect, make Russia subserviant to China.
Well, China isn't the only country with the need for natural resources,
watch EU become increasingly dependend on Russia for its energy and raw materials needs.


I think this is the writing on the wall that every country in the world sees.
History has sense of humour when it comes to "writings on the wall".
Who in 1916 could predict or see "writing on the wall" about USSR, for example? In short, in my opinion - there is no such thing as "writing on the wall".

Right now, India enjoys a technological superiorty versus Chinese
Do Chinese think the same?

and requires 10 years more experience to really be self sufficiant.
So you are saying that by 2015 India will stop buying weapons abroad?
Right now Russia is very nervous of selling China strategic systems
How did you come to this conclusion?

Right now (and forever) there will be no strategic disagreement between India and Russia.
I don't have any "strategic disagreements" with my neighbor, so what - it doesn't make us friends...


Solution to all these problems?
What problems?

: Russia increasingly works with India on more and more advanced and strategic weapons
Why can't Russia work on those weapons all by itself or with some other country besides India?

work hand in hand as co-developers (as opposed to business clients) with next-generation technologies allowing India to leapfrog generations of r&d experience to catch up with China
I thought you just said

India enjoys a technological superiorty versus Chinese

Now let me quickly address the relationship between America-India
There isn't much to address: China is the biggest lender to the US, almost everything in US is made in China, in short - there is no contest...


Reason for this? Russia offered India a helluva lot more for the PAK-FA program.
Do you honestly think that Russia will deliver?
PAK-FA project was thought of when oil didn't cost $70 a barrel.
Russia is working on its very own 5th gen fighter, nowadays PAK-FA is the half-dead sidekick project.

India should have gone with F 22


However, through Russia-India dealing aimed at mutual strengthening,
Lets be honest with ourselves, Russian companies are interested in money and laugh at phrases like "mutual strengthening" outside of business dinners and receptions.

India is locked up (and Russia is locked with India) for the next 20 years
I though you said that in 10 years indian defense industry will be self sufficient?

in capital weapons systems -- Russia milking India in order to stay economically afloat,
Oil baby, oil.
Think about it this way: your social circle and spending habbits/abilities change when you go from making $20k a year to making $100k a year.
Maybe Russia did need Indian weapon sales when oil was $20 a barrel but times have changed...


While Russia, pardon my french and I mean no offense, whores itself out to the biggest john
No offense taken because it is true.

After 20 years, this whole dynamic is going to change. India's defense industry will have the economic size (est. at 1.5 of what China is now (China being 3 times what China is now, so India will in fact be in a better economic position wrt China than it is today)), and the knowlege by working on cutting-edge programs with Russia to be completely self-sufficiant, aided and abbetted by EU, American/Israeli industries in access of other technologies where its lacking.
I bet Chinese would disagree with such "prediction" and so do I

Russia will by now be more developed, but at the same time less economically significant than it is today,
Unless people will stop using gas, oil, titanium, uranium, etc - I don't think so.


especially in terms of USSR-trained generation of scientists that make Russia #1 in r&d in the world, losing increasingly to India, China, and Latin America.
You are forgetting one important detail: all of your best and brightest are increasingly being employed by Uncle Sam...



While any attempt by China to take these regions will quickly go nuclear, Chinese commerical investment into these regions will make it moot -- Russia will have to whore itself out to China because it would be the only way to keep their arms industry afloat,
I would aagree if not for the increasing interest in Russian weapons in the Middle East, Latin America and Asia.

ay for China to access then modern technology.
Wrong again, EU is very eager to lift weapons embargo on China.


And THAT, my Russian friend, is the writing on the wall.
I have already told you my opinion about "writings on the wall".
Now for the reality check: China is becoming and will be a world power due to many reasons, India has no resources/means of becoming anything more than a regional power, simple like that.



It may be nice to play the part
What part?
and holler 'India will always be a client of Russia!'
I actually meant quite opposite: Soon oportunities for the Russia on the Indian market will dry up and Russia will lose any interest in India.


the very fact that Russia is agreeing to increasing Indian co-development (not simply $$, or Rs. as it were, but actual r&d and production at Indian institutions) with every single arms sale from 1997 onward,
As you have explained yourself, this type of arrangement was the key to securing the contract/sale.

shows that they know it damn well too
It shows that there are some smart business people in Rossoboronexport

[Dima-RussianArms]

Since I'm tired from virtually writing an essay, I'd like you to explain your statement,
You have just explained it yourself

They have way more warheads and delivery vehicles (missiles, namely) than India.


Again, it is in your best interests as a pro-Russian on this board to say what you said,
Why?
but its in my interests as a pro-Indian to call this bluff right now.

What bluff?

[NicNZ]

You are a real economic optimist there, Dima ;)

[Icar]

rajkhalsa - what means INS Vikramaditya? It`s a name of some country hero or Vikramaditya have some meaning in indian?

[Xtoisè]

sell to China -- oil, resources, etc. that will in economic/political effect, make Russia subserviant to China.
Well, China isn't the only country with the need for natural resources,
watch EU become increasingly dependend on Russia for its energy and raw materials needs.


I think this is the writing on the wall that every country in the world sees.
History has sense of humour when it comes to "writings on the wall".
Who in 1916 could predict or see "writing on the wall" about USSR, for example? In short, in my opinion - there is no such thing as "writing on the wall".

Right now, India enjoys a technological superiorty versus Chinese
Do Chinese think the same?

and requires 10 years more experience to really be self sufficiant.
So you are saying that by 2015 India will stop buying weapons abroad?
Right now Russia is very nervous of selling China strategic systems
How did you come to this conclusion?

Right now (and forever) there will be no strategic disagreement between India and Russia.
I don't have any "strategic disagreements" with my neighbor, so what - it doesn't make us friends...


Solution to all these problems?
What problems?

: Russia increasingly works with India on more and more advanced and strategic weapons
Why can't Russia work on those weapons all by itself or with some other country besides India?

work hand in hand as co-developers (as opposed to business clients) with next-generation technologies allowing India to leapfrog generations of r&d experience to catch up with China
I thought you just said

India enjoys a technological superiorty versus Chinese

Now let me quickly address the relationship between America-India
There isn't much to address: China is the biggest lender to the US, almost everything in US is made in China, in short - there is no contest...


Reason for this? Russia offered India a helluva lot more for the PAK-FA program.
Do you honestly think that Russia will deliver?
PAK-FA project was thought of when oil didn't cost $70 a barrel.
Russia is working on its very own 5th gen fighter, nowadays PAK-FA is the half-dead sidekick project.

India should have gone with F 22


However, through Russia-India dealing aimed at mutual strengthening,
Lets be honest with ourselves, Russian companies are interested in money and laugh at phrases like "mutual strengthening" outside of business dinners and receptions.

India is locked up (and Russia is locked with India) for the next 20 years
I though you said that in 10 years indian defense industry will be self sufficient?

in capital weapons systems -- Russia milking India in order to stay economically afloat,
Oil baby, oil.
Think about it this way: your social circle and spending habbits/abilities change when you go from making $20k a year to making $100k a year.
Maybe Russia did need Indian weapon sales when oil was $20 a barrel but times have changed...


While Russia, pardon my french and I mean no offense, whores itself out to the biggest john
No offense taken because it is true.

After 20 years, this whole dynamic is going to change. India's defense industry will have the economic size (est. at 1.5 of what China is now (China being 3 times what China is now, so India will in fact be in a better economic position wrt China than it is today)), and the knowlege by working on cutting-edge programs with Russia to be completely self-sufficiant, aided and abbetted by EU, American/Israeli industries in access of other technologies where its lacking.
I bet Chinese would disagree with such "prediction" and so do I

Russia will by now be more developed, but at the same time less economically significant than it is today,
Unless people will stop using gas, oil, titanium, uranium, etc - I don't think so.


especially in terms of USSR-trained generation of scientists that make Russia #1 in r&d in the world, losing increasingly to India, China, and Latin America.
You are forgetting one important detail: all of your best and brightest are increasingly being employed by Uncle Sam...



While any attempt by China to take these regions will quickly go nuclear, Chinese commerical investment into these regions will make it moot -- Russia will have to whore itself out to China because it would be the only way to keep their arms industry afloat,
I would aagree if not for the increasing interest in Russian weapons in the Middle East, Latin America and Asia.

ay for China to access then modern technology.
Wrong again, EU is very eager to lift weapons embargo on China.


And THAT, my Russian friend, is the writing on the wall.
I have already told you my opinion about "writings on the wall".
Now for the reality check: China is becoming and will be a world power due to many reasons, India has no resources/means of becoming anything more than a regional power, simple like that.



It may be nice to play the part
What part?
and holler 'India will always be a client of Russia!'
I actually meant quite opposite: Soon oportunities for the Russia on the Indian market will dry up and Russia will lose any interest in India.


the very fact that Russia is agreeing to increasing Indian co-development (not simply $$, or Rs. as it were, but actual r&d and production at Indian institutions) with every single arms sale from 1997 onward,
As you have explained yourself, this type of arrangement was the key to securing the contract/sale.

shows that they know it damn well too
It shows that there are some smart business people in Rossoboronexport


Dima you basicaly addressed evrything i wanted to say about raj's analysis, especialy constant contradictions that raj subjects himself to.

Raj I dont think you have a clear view of what you are saying. Can tell by the constant metaphors usage in your text.
And what is the meaning of use of word subservient in your text: you keep saying if Russia sells something to another country is keeps it self subservient. Same logic can be used for China as a subservient to rest of the world as supplier of cheap products, but somehow its and economic giant.

Raj your constant mentioning of relationship if US is not very good for Indo-Russian relationship. China and Russia are looking to ally to set up a multipolar world against US's hegemony, which means they have to create a single entity . Russia's technological ability and China's capital is what needed against America's capital and technology, thats what Soviet Union was for a very short period of time. Your rivalary with China doesnt concern Russia but you seem to keep trying to set up a rivalary between Russia and China too as a supposed prevention to China's expansion. Russia will rather be China's closest partner, preferably as a single unity to be able to outweight US' monopolarity, and just incase, nukes will keep China in check. There isnt much India can offer to Russia economicaly in long term, while Chinese economic prowess can be used as investments into lots of fields besides arms exports.

You guys look too oriented around USA and thats not good for close relationship, pick a side untill its too late.

[Xtoisè]

Raj were you born in India and moved to US? How long have you lived in US?

[Xtoisè]

I am not sure if you were just stating the fact or being condescending to indians...

In any case: what does it do for Russia?

Just stating the facts, and I dont know how it could be considered condescending. What it does for Russia is offer fantastic business opportunities, if they did wish to invest.

But that point is so obvious I dont know why im bothering to state it.

Fact: India and Russia's historical and future rival is China.
Fact: Both countries have been involved in wars or very near conflict with china.
Fact: India is in the best position in the region to contain China.
Fact: India's military is expanding and it seeks modern new arms.

Russia and India are going to make a very happy couple.

future can never be a fact. Russia and China were not rivals, China was pissed at Russia for warming up relationship with US in 60's while China basicaly coppied Soviet Union system as a whole.
Russia doesnt need to contain China.

Kilgor i really dont see why would try to "help" Russia's international relationship while being anti-communist which basicaly means anti-Russian atleast from a military point of view. Stop your charade and and try to get India's arms market before Russia undersells you.

[rajkhalsa]

Hi quickly posting to say I'll be very busy with school till fri, then will reply in depth

Xtoisè,
I was born and raised in the US. I'm Indian American

[NicNZ]

http://www.oldwestart.com/images/old_indian_cheif.jpg

[Dr. Danger]

rajkhalsa - what means INS Vikramaditya? It`s a name of some country hero or Vikramaditya have some meaning in indian?

Vikramaditya was an ancient king who presided over a very prosperous time in ancient Indian history. Also, there is no singular language called Indian but many hundreds and even thousands of languages and dialects. The name Vikramaditya is Sanskrit, the oldest language native to India.

[Icar]

thanks,
:D

[mountainbear]

Raj thanks for the pics and info!
Here are two pictures of the Brahmos fitted on the Rajput class destroyer.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kashin4.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kashin5.jpg
These pics shows that two Brahmos replaces each lower styx missile.

Dr. Danger
Sanskrit is not the oldest language native to India. It is an Aryan language and their invaded India since the 16th century before Christ.
Dravidian languages such as Tamil or Telugu are the real native languages.
p-)

[dedgod]

http://www.oldwestart.com/images/old_indian_cheif.jpg





Indian American (Raj Khalsa) not to be confused with
American Indian (picture)

rofl

[rajkhalsa]

^ :lol:

Guys, just posting to apologise. Still very busy with school and work. I only have time for a quick glance at the headlines and this forum. I can probably have more time after labor day


Anyway, here's something from strategy page, fwiw

RUSSIA: Navy Wants to Lease Nuclear Subs to India (http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=RUSSIA.HTM)

September 2, 2005: The Russian navy is apparently preparing two late model two Akula class nuclear submarines, for transfer to India. The subs will be leased, with the option to buy. The two subs are still under construction, one is 70-85 percent complete, the other is 40-60 percent complete. India will pay some $25 million a year to lease the two boats. Total costs of each boat, including crew training, is about a billion dollars. This deal has been in the works for over a decade, and has yet to be finalized and publicly announced.