View Full Version : F-117
Kingpin
10-10-2003, 03:30 AM
Serbs said: sorry, we didn't know it is invisible ;)
http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/
Was it an accident or the serbs downed it.
Kingpin
10-10-2003, 11:45 AM
It was downed by SAM
if i remember correctly it was downed by the serbs...it got visible on radar when it opened it's bomb bays
Herrmannek
10-10-2003, 11:46 AM
I see hole from bullet
http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN5.JPG
or just another hole made by rats, you know that planes are made from "plywood" :)
He219
10-10-2003, 11:59 AM
I remember hearing that AA took out the 117 after the moon silhouetted it's image through an opening in the clouds....
And those barefooted Serbian women dancing on the debris ended up dying of cancer from skin exposure to the steathing chemicals..... lol
Shake n Bake
10-10-2003, 12:09 PM
Bah, F-117 is second generation stealth..
Those poor fockers would **** their pants if they ever saw what we're brewing up now.
He219
10-10-2003, 12:15 PM
What was the first generation stealth, the Go229/HoIX (http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/HoIX/Go-229.htm)?
:D
On the fourth night, the Serbs were waiting with radars updated by the Russians to help defeat the stealth bomber. As the Americanwarplane dropped its bombs on a target near Belgrade, the F-117's open bomb-bay doors made the jet "look like a barn on radar," according to a senior Air Force official. The Serbs quickly fired off missiles. Suddenly under attack, the F-117 pilot dropped below the clouds.
A bad idea, say stealth pilots. F-117s are painted black. Some of its designers argued that a milky blue color would provide better camouflage, but the Air Force "didn't think that was manly enough and ordered them painted black," said a senior government official who helped write a classified study of the 1991 Persian Gulf air war. On a moonlit night, silhouetted against the clouds like the "Batman signal," the plane made a fat target. The Serbs opened up with antiaircraft guns, and a 57-mm shell tore a hole in one wing. (For the record, the Air Force will say only that the plane was brought down by a "combination" of factors.) The pilot was lucky to escape: the G-forces were so great that he reached the ejection-seat handle only with difficulty. American search-and-rescue teams found the downed pilot hiding in a culvert after six hours. The Serbian search parties' dogs had come within 30 feet of his hideout.
So the serbs got lucky or they have great antiaircraft misile tecnology.
He219
10-10-2003, 12:41 PM
With conventional bomb bay doors open, most aircraft would probably be spotted on a missile tracking radar. The russian phased radar or whatever it is (ask GazB) may or may not have had anything to do with it. It was probably the stalking and instantaneous bursts of radar emissions that led to the [situational] tactical ingenuity. Ultimately, it was the AA hit that got the plane......
Just my .02
:P
Hrvoje
10-10-2003, 03:54 PM
They got lucky!
Operation Ivy
10-10-2003, 03:56 PM
Hard to believe that would be shot down :(
Kingpin you sure like to post pics of destroyed US equiment ;)
Seoulstriker
10-10-2003, 04:06 PM
they really did get lucky.
all throughout desert storm, especially on the first night of attacks, not a single F117 was shot down. THAT is really impressive considering how much advanced weapons systems that Iraq had purchased from France. Essentially all around Baghdad were AAA and SAM sites. Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
Hrvoje
10-10-2003, 04:46 PM
On the other side, in BiH, you could see this! :D
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig29nikolic03.jpg
Yu MiG-29
ibstolidude
10-10-2003, 04:55 PM
they really did get lucky.
all throughout desert storm, especially on the first night of attacks, not a single F117 was shot down. THAT is really impressive considering how much advanced weapons systems that Iraq had purchased from France. Essentially all around Baghdad were AAA and SAM sites. Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
- I hope this is the same manner of your "when I was part of SFOD-D jokes."
Seoulstriker
10-10-2003, 04:59 PM
they really did get lucky.
all throughout desert storm, especially on the first night of attacks, not a single F117 was shot down. THAT is really impressive considering how much advanced weapons systems that Iraq had purchased from France. Essentially all around Baghdad were AAA and SAM sites. Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
- I hope this is the same manner of your "when I was part of SFOD-D jokes."
hahahah. those SFOD-D statements were jokes. what i said now is not.
ibstolidude
10-10-2003, 05:01 PM
Serbs said: sorry, we didn't know it is invisible ;)
http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/
isn't that what Milosovic said about the Hague??
Hey how is Kosovo these days...or is that Kosova yet? - unfortunate but very possible....
ibstolidude
10-10-2003, 05:02 PM
Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
- not quite accurate...
Seoulstriker
10-10-2003, 05:12 PM
Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
- not quite accurate...
when was the first apperance in major combat of electronic warfare?
budanski
10-10-2003, 05:25 PM
Didnt the Allies jam Germany's radars during the Normandy invasion?
REMOV
10-10-2003, 05:29 PM
I see hole from bullet This F-117 was destroyed by SA-3 missile, those are not bullet holes but shrapnel holes (SA-3 warhead produces 3500-4000 pre-fragmented fragments (spherical), each weighing 5.4g).
ibstolidude
10-10-2003, 05:32 PM
Of course you have to consider the fact that Desert Storm was the first appearance of electronic warfare.
- not quite accurate...
when was the first apperance in major combat of electronic warfare?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1993/MRA.htm
Although to be technical it was first used by the british in 1916 using coastal radar directional finders....
JiJoMacLE45
10-10-2003, 06:07 PM
A long, long time ago in a place far, far away when I was a starship trooper we used to use electronic warfare to disorient the bugs thought process. Mobile Infantry baby.
thatguy96
10-10-2003, 09:34 PM
Until you make the plane invisible to the human eye, or so quiet that you can hear it, you're still going to have a problem unless you're flying a B-2 at 10,000 ft, and these days flying at that altitude pretty much takes the danger from most of our current "enemies" away.
Until you can prevent people from seeing the thing, then they can still use the shotgun method, with missiles or other AAA, and they're always going to get some small percentage of hits, but with these "new-aged" aircraft, it doesn't take that much to turn the aerodynamics to **** and turn most modern aircraft into a rock traveling at over 400 mph...
Its also not like SAM operators, or guys behind AAA are new to this method of thinking either, as its been the most widely used method of dropping planes out of the sky since the airplane was invented...just make one giant exploding black cloud in the sky...let 'em try and dodge it...
It was a combination of lazyness and a spy.
The flight profiles were not being changed enough and the flight profile of previous missions was leaked to the Serbs (some say by a french officer opposed to the war, but it was never made public) and they guessed when and where the next plane was coming. They fired a barage of optical guided SA-3s and got lucky.
The Stealth on the F-117 is old but not obsolete (to countries that operate old tech like Serbia and Iraq). Its flat faceted design is because the computing power needed to calculated angles and shapes with curved surfaces was not available when it was made. Like the B-2 and F-22, the F-117 isn't radar invisible... they all redirect the reflections from a radar away from the radar... ie if you point your radar directly at an F-22 from front on the radar waves are directed sideways away from your radar so you don't get a reflection. Bi static radars (ie seperate emitter and receivers) can detect and track stealth aircraft, just as metric wave radars can... a stealth aircraft like a B-2 and F-22 and F-117 use shape to deflect the radar waves away from the source... a metric wave radar has a signal so long that it can't detect the shape of the aircraft, so the whole aircraft would resonate a return, which can be used to detect the presence. (accuracy in range is so poor for metric wave radars they are only used to detect the presence of targets and to direct fighters to the vicinity... accuracy in range is about 1-2km + or - ).
He219
10-10-2003, 10:19 PM
Thanks, GazB!
The French...... again.
;)
I should point out that:
"They fired a barage of optical guided SA-3s and got lucky. "
Doesn't mean they were new SA-3s with optical seekers... it just means the SA-3s control system and radar network couldn't see where the F-117 was all the time with enough accuracy to guide a missile to it. (some reflections from other radars might be gathered by another radar, but without knowing anything about when that signal was sent range would be unknown and only general direction cuold be worked out... ie without range, direction, and speed you know it is there but not accurately enough to track it and send a missile or plane to "join it".)
Knowing the rough flight plan, altitiude and timings for the F-117, they simply send up a whole lot of missiles to the place they expected it to be and detonated them at the expected height.
usa320
10-12-2003, 01:27 AM
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig29nikolic03.jpg
That was the last time a MIG was shot down in conflict...
I dont think we will ever see a major air battle again...
Anywho, i too agree the hit on the F-117 was probably a lucky AAA shot.
Kingpin
10-13-2003, 03:38 AM
2 Operation Ivy
It is usually hard to find pics of destroyed western equipment on western sites. I just bring some justice. :)
actually this was all over western sites when it happened over a YEAR ago. when you posted this i thought another had been shot down, oh well, no fun speculation this time around........
Kingpin
10-13-2003, 09:29 AM
2 SOG
We're talking about previous my posts actually :) There was some rare photos of destroyed/disabled US armor.
Last one - about F-117 is well known, you're right.
2 SOG
We're talking about previous my posts actually :) There was some rare photos of destroyed/disabled US armor.
Last one - about F-117 is well known, you're right.
gotcha, i thought this crash was pretty bad as basically the whole package was more or less in enenmy hands. hell if spies had already gotten the plans or smaple materials then thats that, but getting access to one of these babies is a great way of testing new anti aircraft weapons, when you posted this i thought another had gone down, im like great, more research for das enemy.
also i think its hard to find pics of blown to rat **** western vehicles on western sites after the news has happened simply because no army anywhere in any country on any site wants defeat on thier pages you know? maybe you feel the need because the western sites run most of the web also, so it seems like a misrepresentation when its just numbers at work.
hendrix33
10-13-2003, 12:55 PM
Holly ****!
I've heard somewhere that it was shot by a version of SA-6 Gainful, but I could find any information to support that. However, due to the usually high altitudes this aircraft usually flies, I'd imagine a SAM is more likely to hit it than AAA.
Does anyone know what happened to the crew ?
robwarrior
10-13-2003, 02:09 PM
jus curious what happened to the pilot? was he able to punch out?
usa320
10-13-2003, 03:20 PM
yeah, he hit the silk and was picked up by a CSAR team like an hour later.
robwarrior
10-13-2003, 04:00 PM
yeah, he hit the silk and was picked up by a CSAR team like an hour later.
oh ok! thanks! did they run into any serbs durin pick up?
NcDeuce
10-13-2003, 04:33 PM
I'm sure the PJs did a fine job for CSAR.
I dont think we will ever see a major air battle again...
Noooooooooooooooo! It cannot be true!!! :fork:
Deuterium
10-13-2003, 04:46 PM
I'm sure the PJs did a fine job for CSAR.
I dont think we will ever see a major air battle again...
Noooooooooooooooo! It cannot be true!!! :fork:
Intersting contrast between Army SOF and the marines. ANybody know who "rescued" O'grady? Not much press on that(!) SO who do you think "rescued" the 117 pilot? I use "rescue" in quotes because on both occasions the pilot ran to the helicopter, not much of a need for CSAR. Both incidents had the rescue A/C shot at. HUGE difference in the press however. Oh yeah fiercest thing on the modern battlefield is the US Marine Corp PR department.
Ratamacue
10-13-2003, 05:38 PM
Well the Marines DID rescue Scott O'Grady, but it's not like they were in an intense firefight or anything. It WAS a CSAR operation, but not really intense.
I think the media made a bigger deal out of Scott O'Grady simply because he was on the ground behind enemy lines for a couple days, wasn't he? (I read a book about it awhile back but I don't remember much about it.).
Deuterium
10-13-2003, 07:26 PM
Right so who rescued the 117 pilot? That's my point. Was it Army, Airforce, Marines?
He219
10-13-2003, 08:31 PM
More info from a Newsweek (http://www.elvira.com/articles/stealth.html) article July 5, 1999.
Deuterium wrote:
Right so who rescued the 117 pilot? That's my point. Was it Army, Airforce, Marines?
The rescuers (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0400/best3.htm) were the Air Force (http://www2.acc.af.mil/accnews/may00/000174.html) using MH-53 Pave Low and MH-60 Pave Hawk helicopters to extract their own.
More Here (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo990329_rescue.html) and Here (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo990805_rescue.html).
Welcome back, hendrix33!
Deuterium
10-13-2003, 09:08 PM
Okay He219 I'll cut to the chase. No where in the article will you see anything about the CSAR force made up of Army guys from........... This rescue went just like the O'grady one. The CSAR force basically watched as the pilot ran to the rescue force. The point I was making was the VAST difference between how the Marines reported their rescue and the AF/AR reported this one. Sorry for the long drawn out point.
He219
10-13-2003, 10:00 PM
oops :oops: I did'nt realize that..
:hug:
A related note of interest:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/tamara01.htm
The tamara anti-aircraft radar is supposedly able to defeat stealth technology.
Rumor has it that the Serbs had one or more of these systems and it may have been used to destroy the Nigthhawk
budanski
10-14-2003, 08:09 AM
... and the GPS jammers Russia supplied to Iraq were supposed to work also. That was proven wrong when they took out the jammers with what else? JDAMS.
You'll find that Russian and Ukranian defense companies will go out and make outrageous claims to make a sale. You'll have to take what they claim with a grain of salt.
It's not that the GPS jammers didn't work - the designers of GPS guided weapons in the US already built redundancies into their systems to acount for the jamming - including internal guidance and navigation capabilities.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200303\FOR20030331d.html
hendrix33
10-14-2003, 12:12 PM
It was a combination of lazyness and a spy.
The flight profiles were not being changed enough and the flight profile of previous missions was leaked to the Serbs (some say by a french officer opposed to the war, but it was never made public) and they guessed when and where the next plane was coming. They fired a barage of optical guided SA-3s and got lucky.
The Stealth on the F-117 is old but not obsolete (to countries that operate old tech like Serbia and Iraq). Its flat faceted design is because the computing power needed to calculated angles and shapes with curved surfaces was not available when it was made. Like the B-2 and F-22, the F-117 isn't radar invisible... they all redirect the reflections from a radar away from the radar... ie if you point your radar directly at an F-22 from front on the radar waves are directed sideways away from your radar so you don't get a reflection. Bi static radars (ie seperate emitter and receivers) can detect and track stealth aircraft, just as metric wave radars can... a stealth aircraft like a B-2 and F-22 and F-117 use shape to deflect the radar waves away from the source... a metric wave radar has a signal so long that it can't detect the shape of the aircraft, so the whole aircraft would resonate a return, which can be used to detect the presence. (accuracy in range is so poor for metric wave radars they are only used to detect the presence of targets and to direct fighters to the vicinity... accuracy in range is about 1-2km + or - ).
Thanks, that's an interesting explanation.
However, I've never heard of any Optically Guided SA-3 GOAs, since the missile is originally guided by radar. Can you refer me to a link about this modification?
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