Kiev, dollars, revolution

[Abbyy]

There are a lot of words said about people who are taking part in the protests.

Their opponents say they were sold and worked for money. I can say as an eye-witness that students in the streets didn’t get money! We had hot food, warm clothes, tents, orange ammuo but nobody pay money to us.

In contrast to our elder fellows... When my friends and I come to the main square Maidan (we couldn’t miss the show) that first night I was surprised - why some people who pretended as profi coordinators (no students) registered us students?!

If you need to know how much woolies and sandwiches you need - count us - but why they noted our surnames, addresses and other things. Oh, it was quite a surprise when two “coordinators” almost smashed each other quarreling who of them would enlist the new part of students who came from Poltava. Both wanted to have them in their own notepad.

The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! We must get this money in principle. This money for people who freeze on Maidan, for people who built “the living passage” to president administration building! But the “coordinators” appropriated our money! Well one of them was no Ukrainian but a Pole who had big experience to get the easy money in Belgrade and Tbilisi. He told me about money when we were drunk in “Ukraine house”. He invited me to have part in his next trip. He said that we will have big money moreover we will not freeze because it will be a warm state…
When I refused he beg me to keep silent and promised to pay off. But I don’t believe. I watch it on TV. It’s enough for me. Let such “dollars” revolutions pass over from me. There are a lot of young people who scream who don’t know the price of their voices!

TarasBulba

[Marmot1]

There are a lot of words said about people who are taking part in the protests.

Their opponents say they were sold and worked for money. I can say as an eye-witness that students in the streets didn’t get money! We had hot food, warm clothes, tents, orange ammuo but nobody pay money to us.

In contrast to our elder fellows... When my friends and I come to the main square Maidan (we couldn’t miss the show) that first night I was surprised - why some people who pretended as profi coordinators (no students) registered us students?!

If you need to know how much woolies and sandwiches you need - count us - but why they noted our surnames, addresses and other things. Oh, it was quite a surprise when two “coordinators” almost smashed each other quarreling who of them would enlist the new part of students who came from Poltava. Both wanted to have them in their own notepad.

The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! We must get this money in principle. This money for people who freeze on Maidan, for people who built “the living passage” to president administration building! But the “coordinators” appropriated our money! Well one of them was no Ukrainian but a Pole who had big experience to get the easy money in Belgrade and Tbilisi. He told me about money when we were drunk in “Ukraine house”. He invited me to have part in his next trip. He said that we will have big money moreover we will not freeze because it will be a warm state…
When I refused he beg me to keep silent and promised to pay off. But I don’t believe. I watch it on TV. It’s enough for me. Let such “dollars” revolutions pass over from me. There are a lot of young people who scream who don’t know the price of their voices!

TarasBulba

Let me guess source... ITAR-TASS? or Pravda?

[Turhapuro]

[quote]
The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! This must be bull****. :cantbeli:

Ukraina is poor country and you really don't need to pay more than 10 cents per name. Median salary is something like 100 USD. Who the **** would give months pay to someone who just got 3-4 names and addresses? :D

And anyways you probably will just get tons of faked names.

[Dima-RussianArms]

[quote]
The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! This must be bull****. :cantbeli:

Ukraina is poor country and you really don't need to pay more than 10 cents per name. Median salary is something like 100 USD. Who the f*** would give months pay to someone who just got 3-4 names and addresses? :D

And anyways you probably will just get tons of faked names.


You are misinformed, both candidates have spent over $ 1.5 billion (that is right with the b) on their election campaigns.

Isn't it amazing, election campaing in small Ukraine is more expensive than election campaign in the US (GWB has reportedly spent $ 690 mill)?

You have to keep in mind that while former SU republics look not so impressive on paper, the amount of money that is kept off the books is mind-boggling. The official finance numbers are worthless in determening true GDP and GNP in those countries.

[Abbyy]

Let me guess source... ITAR-TASS? or Pravda?

Wrong! Yahoo forums :)

Actually i have video as a proof how money are distributed according these lists (lower sum was named). But i thought that money reached people enlisted. At seems i was wrong at least partially (no matter of your romantical feelings toward these people, they need some money to live on Maidan).

And please don't cry "bull****" at every thing you dislike.
I participated in election campaign in Moscow for Union of Right Parties (SPS) and i know how it works. So I believe this man.

[Sergei]

Somehow our russian friends are conveniently forgetting that Russia has invested 900 mln. dollars into a failed project "Yanukovich".
The names like big state run enterprise "Gazprom" come to mind.

P.S. One more fun thing is that a lot of citizens of Russia were voting in Ukrainian elections, especially in Crimea.
Luzhkov openly calling for separation of several east ukrainian regions in Severodonetsk is also to receive his due share of international reprisal. I'll be looking forward to it. The mayor of Moscow - the stink of all Russia.

Pootie Poot is rattling his cage big time. The empire is crumbling, ****.

[Turhapuro]

You are misinformed, both candidates have spent over $ 1.5 billion (that is right with the b) on their election campaigns.
I just don't buy it. In USA in some places one vote costs one beer so in Ukraine one potential voter name can't cost 30 USD.

Abbyy

And please don't cry "bull****" at every thing you dislike.

So you think that I should believe that some nutcase pay 30 000 USD for 1 000 names and in cash in place?

Sure there flows money to organizators, you have to get food, tents, supplies etc (and if you are corrupt enough, you can takse slice of your own) but you claim that somebody would really waste that much money for just names...If you say it was 10 cents or dollar, I could believe it.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

For that kind of money, I'll quit my job, move to the Ukraine, and just spend my time copying phone books. Only 33 thousand names will get me my first million!

[Dima-RussianArms]

I just don't buy it. In USA in some places one vote costs one beer so in Ukraine one potential voter name can't cost 30 USD.


You don't buy it because you don't understant how things work overthere, it is an alien world/society/mentality to you.

Not everyone gets paid for voting, some people do it for free, some don't care for whom to vote and small "gift packages " make alll the difference.

Bulk of the money was spent on bribes and "PR campaign".

The logical question would be: "Where did those $ 1.5 B came from?"

With Yanukovich it is pretty clear: eastern regions, national bank, Kievs bankers and Russian companies.

But where did Juschenko got his money from - can you explain this?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I just don't buy it. In USA in some places one vote costs one beer so in Ukraine one potential voter name can't cost 30 USD.


You don't buy it because you don't understant how things work overthere, it is an alien world/society/mentality to you.

Not everyone gets paid for voting, some people do it for free, some don't care for whom to vote and small "gift packages " make alll the difference.

Bulk of the money was spent on bribes and "PR campaign".

The logical question would be: "Where did those $ 1.5 B came from?"

With Yanukovich it is pretty clear: eastern regions, national bank, Kievs bankers and Russian companies.

But where did Juschenko got his money from - can you explain this?

Well now - your question requires that we accept your $1.5b figure, and the notion that the election results are no more than the direct result of "purchasing" an election. Personally, I don't believe either.

Where does this foggy $1.5b figure come from? The 2004 US Presidential election - the most expensive in history in the richest nation on earth, cost a total of $880 million. That figure includes Primary receipts, general election public funding, and convention public funding.

You're claiming that the Ukraine election cost double that? Yes, I can accept that there was some funny money flying around - but I think it's a bit of a stretch when figures of this size are thrown around with no substantiation.

Some figures;

US; pop 293 million, GDP of $10.99 trillion, purchasing power per capita of $37,900
Ukraine; pop 48 million, GDP of $260 million, pp per capita of $5400
Russia; pop 143 million, GDP of $1.28 trillion, pp per capita of $8900

By that math - the $30 "registration fee" claimed to be paid for every name would be the equivalent of giving an American $270.

So the rest of the claims appear even more dubious.

[Dima-RussianArms]

You don't get it, no one gave each Ukranian citizen $30 cash to vote for one candidate or another. Money were used to pay for "gifts", bonuses, entertanment events, bribes to local officials, etc...

Like I have said before, those GDP and GNP numbers are worthless in determening the true state of financial matters in the former Soviet republics.

You are going by the standard "western" thought process, I have told you already - you can't do that in relation to those countries.
You are thinking inside the box and the only way to get it is to think "outside the box".
I can't teach you that and I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it to you, so lets just leave it at that.

In US economy is translucent, overthere it is not.
Where do you think all those oligarchs come from?
Certain people became wealthier overthere faster than "dot.com" billionaries in US...think about it.


Did you know that it is estimated that Russians spent last year $ 30 billion on bribes?

As for $1.5 B, both sides agree on that number, there are multitude of articles in both Ukranian and Russian all over the web, look for yourself if you care.

Think outside the box.

[ocean]

my problem with this is, with dollars behind everywhere, how authentic this "democracy" really is?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You don't get it, no one gave each Ukranian citizen $30 cash to vote for one candidate or another. Money were used to pay for "gifts", bonuses, entertanment events, bribes to local officials, etc...

Like I have said before, those GDP and GNP numbers are worthless in determening the true state of financial matters in the former Soviet republics.

You are going by the standard "western" thought process, I have told you already - you can't do that in relation to those countries.
You are thinking inside the box and the only way to get it is to think "outside the box".
I can't teach you that and I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it to you, so lets just leave it at that.

In US economy is translucent, overthere it is not.
Where do you think all those oligarchs come from?
Certain people became wealthier overthere faster than "dot.com" billionaries in US...think about it.


Did you know that it is estimated that Russians spent last year $ 30 billion on bribes?

As for $1.5 B, both sides agree on that number, there are multitude of articles in both Ukranian and Russian all over the web, look for yourself if you care.

Think outside the box.

Yes, that's the problem here. I'm not thinking outside the box, and am clinging to the notion that claims should be backed up with reference material.

Come on now - you claimed that GWB spent over $600 million on his campaign. In fact, he spent $366 million. Reference http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/index.asp.

You defended the "fact" that people were paid $30 for each name they registered in a book. The per capita GDP is entirely applicable here -as any Ukrainian getting $30 is like an American getting $270. The fact that the Ukraine has a huge underground economy does nothing to affect the fact that $30 US buys $270 worth of value in the Ukraine. And nobody in the US would pay - or could afford - $270 per name for registrations. So that is blown out of the water as well. Reference for per capita GDP figures: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

Nobody is disputing that things are quite different there - and it's very probable that some shady things took place. Hell, somebody poisoned the candidate. But $1.5 billion dollars...and no proof anywhere to be found? Your numbers are just as shady as the election you're complaining about. That's $38 for every Ukrainian of voting age...nearly $300 of value to them. Surely there would be some evidence of fraud on this scale. Until you can provide reputable backup for such claims, they remain in the realm of opinion.

[Dima-RussianArms]

You defended the "fact" that people were paid $30 for each name they registered in a book

WHEN and WHERE???????!!!! :roll:

The sources for those numbers are both Ukranian and Russian, just because you don't speak any of those languages and therefore can't read about it, doesn't make them any less valid and I am too lazy/don't care enough to translate.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You defended the "fact" that people were paid $30 for each name they registered in a book

WHEN and WHERE???????!!!! :roll:

The sources for those numbers are both Ukranian and Russian, just because you don't speak any of those languages and therefore can't read about it, doesn't make them any less valid and I am too lazy/don't care enough to translate.

Well done - I think you've established your level of credibility.

[Dima-RussianArms]

You defended the "fact" that people were paid $30 for each name they registered in a book

WHEN and WHERE???????!!!! :roll:

The sources for those numbers are both Ukranian and Russian, just because you don't speak any of those languages and therefore can't read about it, doesn't make them any less valid and I am too lazy/don't care enough to translate.

Well done - I think you've established your level of credibility.

How about answering "when and where" question?
Quote would be nice also...

I guess we both have established something, me - level credibility, you - level of intelligence ;)

There are more important things in my life than establishing credibility with you through translating russian/ukranian articles into english, trust me.

Just leave it, understanding certain things is beyond you...

[Sergei]

my problem with this is, with dollars behind everywhere, how authentic this "democracy" really is?
It is for your own convinience, or 8,1 billion hryvnias, that is to be precise.

All the money the government spent were for Yanukovich so that leaves a big gap in the budget since the failed president was going with the motto "all or nothing". Now he is having a hangover and is sitting in his dog cage somewhere in Donetsk and squeals sometimes how unfair the ukrainian people are.

[Turhapuro]

Dima, even how I try to think out of the box, I can believe that someone would pay $30 for name because in Ukraine, you should not be in short supply of labour if you have dollars to spend. You can surely get someone to collect names if you offer $1 per name. There must be some kind of misunderstanding about that name collection or Ukraina is very very very rich country.

And I don't believe that Ukraina spends more on campaigning than USA. Spending that much means that you actually hire half of population to campaign for two weeks. Unofficial spending applies to campaign budget too so big proportion of it should not be in buudget (so real figures should be much higher than $1,5 billion.)

[Dima-RussianArms]

Dima, even how I try to think out of the box, I can believe that someone would pay $30 for name because

People!!!!! where did I say that someone paid $ 30 for the name????
I think you are mistaking me with Abby.

No one handed $ 30 at the voting stations, read again

Money were used to pay for "gifts", bonuses, entertanment events, bribes to local officials, etc...


+ how much do you think all those "protests" of hundreds of thousands people who were transported to Kiev from all over Ukraine, with tent cities, hot food, warm clothing and entertainment cost?

You guys just don't get it, ask Sergej maybe he can explain it to you....

[redfox0035]

No one handed $ 30 at the voting stations, read again

That's right, noone paid $30, they paid 30 grivna's, and not in the voting stations, but for participating in Maidan hysteria with concert for free bonus - the information handed to me from Kiev's University student.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You defended the "fact" that people were paid $30 for each name they registered in a book

WHEN and WHERE???????!!!! :roll:

The sources for those numbers are both Ukranian and Russian, just because you don't speak any of those languages and therefore can't read about it, doesn't make them any less valid and I am too lazy/don't care enough to translate.

Well done - I think you've established your level of credibility.

How about answering "when and where" question?
Quote would be nice also...

I guess we both have established something, me - level credibility, you - level of intelligence ;)

There are more important things in my life than establishing credibility with you through translating russian/ukranian articles into english, trust me.

Just leave it, understanding certain things is beyond you...

Good Christ man, do you even bother to read your own posts?





The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! This must be bull****. :cantbeli:

Ukraina is poor country and you really don't need to pay more than 10 cents per name. Median salary is something like 100 USD. Who the f*** would give months pay to someone who just got 3-4 names and addresses? :D

And anyways you probably will just get tons of faked names.


You are misinformed, both candidates have spent over $ 1.5 billion (that is right with the b) on their election campaigns.

Isn't it amazing, election campaing in small Ukraine is more expensive than election campaign in the US (GWB has reportedly spent $ 690 mill)?

You have to keep in mind that while former SU republics look not so impressive on paper, the amount of money that is kept off the books is mind-boggling. The official finance numbers are worthless in determening true GDP and GNP in those countries.
See, what happened there, in case you weren't paying attention, was that the original article stated, "The situation was clear when I came to know that they got $30 from some West organization for each person in their notes! "

Turhapuro said "Who the f*** would give months pay to someone who just got 3-4 names and addresses?" and said the $30 for names in a book must be BS.

To which you replied: "You are misinformed, both candidates have spent over $ 1.5 billion (that is right with the b) on their election campaigns". If you are not talking about the $30 per name in the book, then what the hell are you telling him he's misinformed about?

That is when and where you said it.

[Dima-RussianArms]

If you are not talking about the $30 per name in the book, then what the hell are you telling him he's misinformed about?

That is when and where you said it.

:cantbeli:
So you have assumed that I was talking about $30 per name?:roll:

Let me ask you again, when and where did I ever mentioned,besides your creative interpretation, "$30 per name"?

Sir, you are seeing and reading things that are not there :cantbeli:

Are you allright, I mean seriously?
Maybe you have copied too many phonebooks for one day, take a break man, fresh air is good, really.
:petting:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes, I'm sorry, that was my mistake. You're correct, I was assuming you were addressing the text you deliberately quoted, and not the text from another thread on another messageboard. Typically that's what we do here, though it's more of a custom than a requirement.

In the future, it would be easier if you'd just give us a quick heads up when you quote one thing and then address another, just to keep things clear.

Heh, or maybe you could spend less time professing your knowledge of Russian and Ukrainian, and concentrate on learning English. :lol:

[Dima-RussianArms]

Yes, I'm sorry, that was my mistake.

I stopped reading after that ;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes, I'm sorry, that was my mistake.

I stopped reading after that ;)

Bastard!

Oh wait now, hold on.....were you referring to my post, or another one? rofl Ah, I crack myself up.

[Abbyy]

So you think that I should believe that some nutcase pay 30 000 USD for 1 000 names and in cash in place?

Sure there flows money to organizators, you have to get food, tents, supplies etc (and if you are corrupt enough, you can takse slice of your own) but you claim that somebody would really waste that much money for just names...If you say it was 10 cents or dollar, I could believe it.

I believe in 30 but not dollars. 30 Grivnas i suppose :)

Actually i get 30$ in a day when on bussiness trips (this doesn't include travel and accomodation costs) :)

[Abbyy]

It is for your own convinience, or 8,1 billion hryvnias, that is to be precise.
.

:) Hehe. Brainwashed moron. It's all about you.


Им устроили праздник их победы, сказали: победа – значит, всем радоваться. Они останутся в своем счастье и в своих представлениях о жизни, в которой они славно участвовали недели две, обеспечив себя воспоминаниями.

8 декабря в Киеве над майданом Незалежности примерно с 21 до 21.30 грохотал и рассыпался прекраснейший, со всевозможными световыми вытребеньками фейерверк. И когда они только запаслись в революционном запале, но не в этом дело. По какому случаю фейерверк? Это украинский парламент принял закон о выборах, о смене ЦИКа и о политреформе в одном пакете.

Фейерверк грохотал и рассыпался, майдан ликовал, однозначно празднуя победу. Нелепость же состояла в том, что если о правде жизни, то этот фейерверк отмечал ни что иное, как победу Кучмы и Медведчука, главных врагов г-на Ющенко. А победили они потому, что политреформа, превращавшая Украину в парламентско-президентскую республику, и была главной в пакете, принятие которого праздновалось. Так что следующий президент, Ющенко или Янукович, будет не совсем президентом, а сморчком обкусанным. Ну а два других вышеупомянутых политика эту реформу и продвигали два последних года. И теперь майдан озарялся.

Разумеется, 99% лиц, присутствовавших там, никогда не сообразят, что именно произошло в тот день: это просто вне их интересов. Да им и не надо; им устроили праздник их победы, сказали: победа – значит, всем радоваться. Они останутся в своем счастье и в своих представлениях о жизни, в которой они славно участвовали недели две, обеспечив себя воспоминаниями.

Потом этот кусок жизни сменит следующая рамка, слайд, в нем эти люди снова отыщут себе какую-то отраду, снова ощутят свою значимость. Да и что есть истина? Не более чем то, что на ее счет думают. Их счастье в том, что действительность их не касается, – да и что такое, опять же, действительность? Если бы вдруг стала видна подкладка происходящего, им сделалось бы неприятно. Но предъявление изнанки публике ограничивается какой-то милостью природы, не дающей оснований – не запретом, а инерционностью, что ли – заглянуть куда-то туда, куда прохожим лучше не смотреть.

Так что эта фейерверочная оболочка и была тут главной – вне зависимости от того, что происходило в технологической действительности.

[Sergei]

It is for your own convinience, or 8,1 billion hryvnias, that is to be precise.
.

:) Hehe. Brainwashed moron. It's all about you.


Им устроили праздник их победы, сказали: победа – значит, всем радоваться. Они останутся в своем счастье и в своих представлениях о жизни, в которой они славно участвовали недели две, обеспечив себя воспоминаниями.

8 декабря в Киеве над майданом Незалежности примерно с 21 до 21.30 грохотал и рассыпался прекраснейший, со всевозможными световыми вытребеньками фейерверк. И когда они только запаслись в революционном запале, но не в этом дело. По какому случаю фейерверк? Это украинский парламент принял закон о выборах, о смене ЦИКа и о политреформе в одном пакете.

Фейерверк грохотал и рассыпался, майдан ликовал, однозначно празднуя победу. Нелепость же состояла в том, что если о правде жизни, то этот фейерверк отмечал ни что иное, как победу Кучмы и Медведчука, главных врагов г-на Ющенко. А победили они потому, что политреформа, превращавшая Украину в парламентско-президентскую республику, и была главной в пакете, принятие которого праздновалось. Так что следующий президент, Ющенко или Янукович, будет не совсем президентом, а сморчком обкусанным. Ну а два других вышеупомянутых политика эту реформу и продвигали два последних года. И теперь майдан озарялся.

Разумеется, 99% лиц, присутствовавших там, никогда не сообразят, что именно произошло в тот день: это просто вне их интересов. Да им и не надо; им устроили праздник их победы, сказали: победа – значит, всем радоваться. Они останутся в своем счастье и в своих представлениях о жизни, в которой они славно участвовали недели две, обеспечив себя воспоминаниями.

Потом этот кусок жизни сменит следующая рамка, слайд, в нем эти люди снова отыщут себе какую-то отраду, снова ощутят свою значимость. Да и что есть истина? Не более чем то, что на ее счет думают. Их счастье в том, что действительность их не касается, – да и что такое, опять же, действительность? Если бы вдруг стала видна подкладка происходящего, им сделалось бы неприятно. Но предъявление изнанки публике ограничивается какой-то милостью природы, не дающей оснований – не запретом, а инерционностью, что ли – заглянуть куда-то туда, куда прохожим лучше не смотреть.

Так что эта фейерверочная оболочка и была тут главной – вне зависимости от того, что происходило в технологической действительности.


First of all, I didn't call you names.
About paying the protestors it is real bull****, i have a salary of over 1000 bucks, do you think if they paid me 30 hryvnias (5.5 dollars) I would be standing there in the freezing temperature and mud for that stupid amount of money?
No, I came there because of my own volition, because I don't think a hybrid of old soviet "zastoy" and wild capitalist bandit can have a chance to rule my country, and we have a lot of people thinking the same way.
We have a growing middle class in Ukraine and all those people were there on Maidan not because they were paid but because they felt that if they didn't go there wouldn't be any future for them or for their kids.

Moreover I personally brought my money to pay for hot food, medicines, warm clothes and other necessities for those living in the tents.
Actually I like the word "banderovets" from now on, because that is what pisses people like you off and I like this reaction of rabid spitting and barking and trying to show the teeth. :bash: So much for the friendly "brotherly" relations between slavic neighbors, god forbid to have such friends in the future.
I know it sucks to have an imperial "lomka" but people live through it and go on with their lives. I wish you and the rest of russian keyboard warriors to do the same.

[Azide]

because they felt that if they didn't go there wouldn't be any future for them or for their kids.

What exactly does this mean? Sounds like some brainwashing done by a certain party... You have no future! :)