Peninsular War

[Yosy]

The Peninsula War (1808-1814) was a major conflict during the Napoleonic Wars. The war was fought in the Iberian Peninsula between Spain, Portugal and the British against the French.

Progress of the War

In November 1807 the Emperor Napoleon sent an army into Spain under Marshal Junot tasked with invading Portugal, after Portugal had refused to join the Continental System; Lisbon was captured on December 1. The skilfull escape in November, 29 1807 of the Portuguese dynasty and 15,000 people from the Administration and the Court carried by the Fleet enabled D.João VI to continue to rule over its overseas possessions, including Brazil.

Napoleon then began sending troops into the Peninsula; Pamplona and Barcelona were seized in February 1808. A Spanish coup forced Charles IV from his throne and replaced him with his son Ferdinand VII. Napoleon removed the royals to Bayonne and forced them to abdicate (May 5), giving the throne to his brother Joseph. When Joseph tried to enforce his rule in Spain he provoked a popular uprising. Citizens of Madrid rose up in rebellion against French occupation on May 2, 1808 but the revolt was crushed.

Until this time, British military operations on mainland Europe had been marked by bungling, half-measures and a series of humiliating defeats. Britain had been forced to withdraw from Europe. But with the rising in Portugal and Spain the British were prepared to commit substantial forces once again. In August, 1808 the first British forces landed in Portugal under the command of then General Sir Arthur Wellesley (the Duke of Wellington).

The Spanish army had won a surprising victory over the army of Pierre Dupont at Bailén (May 19-May 21). Wellesley defeated forces under the command of Delaborde at Roliça on August 17 while the Portuguese Observation Army of Bernardim contained Loison. On August 21 the Anglo-Portuguese were strongly engaged at the Battle of Vimeiro by French forces under the command of Junot. Wellesley's careful management, strong leadership and sound tactics repulsed the dynamic French and the Allies held their line. Despite his victory, Wellesley was replaced as commander by Harry Burrard and Hew Dalrymple. These victories led to the French withdrawing from Portugal under the controversial Convention of Sintra in August, 1808. The British commanders were ordered back to England for the inquiry into Sintra leaving Sir John Moore to head the 30,000 strong British force.

The Anglo-Portugueses and Spanish victories combined to provoke Napoleon himself to lead 200,000 men into the Peninsula. The British attacked near Burgos but were soon forced into a long retreat chased by the French and punctuated by battles at Sahagun, Benavente and Cacobelos, ending in an evacuation from La Coruña in January, 1809, Moore being killed while directing the defence of the town. Satisfied and after only little more than two months in Spain, Napoleon handed command over to Marshal Soult and returned to France.

On March Soult initiated the second invasion of Portugal, through the northern corridor. Repulsed in the Minho river by Portuguese milicias, he captured successively Chaves, Braga and, on 29 March 1809, Porto. Yet,the resistance of Silveira in Amarante and other northern cities isolated Soult in Oporto and he embarked upon a gamble of becoming king of North Portugal or evacuate the country.

Meanwhile, Napoleon's victories had broken the Spanish armies, but had also forced the Spanish to begin the guerilla warfare than would lead to the downfall of the French in Spain.

Wellesley returned to Portugal in April 1809 to command the Anglo-Portuguese forces. He strenghtened his British army with Portuguese regiments - meanwhile organized by the Governors of the realm and adapted by Beresford to the British way of campaigning - and defeated Soult at Grijo and then at Oporto (May 12). All other northern cities were captured by Silveira.

Leaving the Portuguese to take care of their newly-won territory, Wellesley advanced into Spain to join up with the Spanish army of Gregorio de la Cuesta. The combined Allied force clashed with a army led by King Joseph at Talavera (July 27-July 28), the Allies won a costly victory which left them precariously exposed and soon they had to retreat westwards. Wellesley was made a Viscount for his victory at Talavera. Later that year Spanish armies were badly mauled at Ocaña and at Alba de Tormes.

After his most distressing experience of collaboration with the Spaniards, and fearing a new French attack, Wellesley took the decision to strengthen Portugal's defences. He took a plan from Major Neves Costa and ordered the construction of a strong military wall, along key roads and of a series of trenches and earthworks (the Lines of Torres Vedras) to protect Lisbon.

The French reinvaded Portugal in July 1810 with an army of around 60,000 led by Marshal Masséna. The first significant clash was at the Coa. Later on, Masséna took "the worst route in Portugal" and at Buçaco on September 27, suffered a big check but the Allies were soon forced to retreat to the Lines. The fortifications were so impressive that after a small attack at Sobral on October 14 the conflict fell into stalemate. As Charles Oman wrote "in that misty October 14 morning, at Sobral, the Napoleonic empire attained its highest watermark" Then it ebbed. The French withdrew from the Lines and were forced to await reinforcements.

The Allies were reinforced by the arrival of fresh British troops in early 1811 and began a new offensive. A French force was beaten at Barrosa on March 5 to relieve Cadiz, and Massena was forced to withdraw from Portugal after a stalemate at Fuentes de Oñoro (May 3-May 5). Massena had lost 25,000 men in the fighting in Portugal and he was replaced by Auguste Marmont. The new commander directed Soult to the north to protect Badajoz. The force of Soult was intercepted by an Anglo-Portuese and Spanish army led by the Portuguese Army marshal William Beresford at Albuera (May 16) and after a bloody battle the French were forced to retreat.

The war then fell into a temporary lull, the numerically superior French unable to find an advantage and under increasing pressure from Spanish guerilla activity. The French had upwards of 350,000 soldiers in L'Armée de l'Espagne, but the vast majority, over 200,000, were deployed to protect the French lines of supply rather than as substantial fighting units.

Wellesley renewed the Allied advance into Spain just after New Year in 1812, besieging and capturing the fortified towns of Ciudad Rodrigo on January 19 and Badajoz, after a costly assault, on April 6. Both towns were pillaged by the troops. The Allied army took Salamanca on June 17 as Marmont approached. The two forces finally met on July 22 and the Battle of Salamanca was a damaging defeat to the French. Marshall Beresford was severely wounded. As the French regrouped, the Anglo-Portuguese entered Madrid on August 6 and advanced onwards towards Burgos before retreating all the way back to Portugal.

The French hopes of recovery were stricken by Napoleon's disastrous invasion of Russia in 1812. He had taken 30,000 soldiers from the hard-pressed Armée de l'Espagne. But starved of reinforcements and replacements the French position became increasingly unsustainable as the Allies renewed the offensive in May, 1813.

It was grand strategy, as Wellington planned to move his supply base from Lisboa to San Sebastian.

The Anglo-Portuguese forces swept northwards in June and seized Burgos, then they outflanked the army commanded by Joseph forcing him into the Zadorra river valley. At the Battle of Vitoria (June 21) the 65.000 men of Joseph were routed. The Allies chased the retreating French, reaching the Pyrenees in early July. Soult was given command of the French forces and began a counter-offensive, dealing the Allied generals two sharp defeats at Maya and at Roncesvalles. Yet, he was severely repulsed by the Anglo-Portuguese and losed momentum and finally fled after the Allied victory at Sorauren (July 28 and 30). On October 7, after Wellington received news from the reopening of hostilities em Germany, the Allies finally crossed into France, fording the Bidassoa river.

The Peninsula war went on through the Allied victories of Vera, Nivelle, near Bayonne (December 10-14), Orthez (February 27, 1814) and Toulouse (April 10). This last one was after Napoleon's abdication.

The Guerrilla War

During the war the British gave aid to Portuguese Milicia Levies and Spanish guerrillas who tied down thousands of French troops. The British gave this aid because it cost them much less than it would have done to equip British soldiers to face the French troops in conventional warfare. This was one of the most successful partisan wars in history and is the origin of the word guerrilla in the English language.

Consequences in Portugal

The Peninsular War signified the traumatic entry of Portugal into contemporary age. The transference of the Royal Court to Rio de Janeiro, initiated the process of Brasil's state-buiding which, in due time became independent. The skilfull evacuation by the Portuguese Fleet of more than 15,000 people from the Court, Administration and Army was a bonus for Brasil and a blessing in disguise for Portugal. It liberated the energies of the country. The Governors of Portugal nominated by the absent king had a scant impact on account of successive French invasions and British occupation. Yet , the role of the War Minister Miguel Pereira Forjaz was unique. With the Portuguese Staff, he managed to build a regular army of 55,000 men, some more 50,000 national guard - "milicias" - and a variable number of home guard -"ordenanças" - perhaps more than 100,000. The impact of a nation at arms was the equivalent of French revolution as a new class, tried, disciplined and informed by the experience of war against the French Empire, was enabled to rebuild the Portuguese liberal institutions from 1820 onwards.

Consequences in Spain

The new king was cheered initially by Spanish afrancesados (Frenchified), who believed that collaborating with France would bring modernization and liberty. An example was the abolition of the Spanish Inquisition. However, the conduct of the French army led many to disappointment. The remaining ones exiled to France following French troops. The painter Francisco de Goya was one of these afrancesados, but soon changed his mind and created somber pictures of the disasters of war.

In the independence side, both traditionalists and liberals were found. After the war, they would clash in the Carlist Wars. Independent Cortes were summoned in Cádiz acting on behalf of king Ferdinand, "the Desired one", and coordinating the provincial Juntas. The liberal Cortes approved the first Spanish Constitution on March 19, 1812. In Spanish America, the Juntas were formed by Creoles, instead of the Spain-born public officers. This experience of self-government led the later Libertadores to promote the independence of the colonies.

The French troops seized many of the extensive properties of the Catholic Church. Churches and convents were used as stables or barracks and artworks were sent to France. The Spanish cultural heritage took a serious hit.

Role of Intelligence

Intelligence played a large part in the successful prosecution of the war by the British after 1810. Spanish and Portuguese guerrillas were asked to capture messages from French couriers. From 1811 onwards, these dispatches were often either partially or wholly enciphered. George Scovell of Wellington's General Staff was given the job of deciphering them. At first the ciphers used were fairly simple and he received help from other members of the General Staff. However beginning in 1812, a much stronger cipher originally devised for diplomatic messages, came into use and Scovell was left to work on this himself. He steadily broke it, with the result that knowledge of French troop movements and deployments was used to great effect in most of the engagements described above. The French never realised that the code had been broken and continued to use it until their code tables were captured at the battle of Vitoria.

[Benny]

Great post, Yosi. Actually, this is one of my favourite period of the whole Portuguese military history. What were your sources? The Portuguese regulars and their British allies played a major role in defeating the French, brilliantly orchestrated by Wellington, expelling the French invasor from Portugal, through Spain and all the way to Southern France. And let's not forget the amazing Lines of Torres Vedras - the maginot line of the XIX century (only more effective)!

[Para]

Did any one see the TV series called Sharp that was set in this period. On whole the Series is well worth watching.

[Benny]

I'm a big fan of the tv series, but I still prefer the books on which it was based, by Bernard Cornwell.

[ogukuo72]

What continues to amaze me is the scale of casualties in one battle in those days. 25,000 casualties! I read somewhere that there were 53,000 casualties at *****sburg alone.

Things seems so different nowadays, when even a dozen casualties would lead to hail and cry.

[Yosy]

Great post, Yosi. Actually, this is one of my favourite period of the whole Portuguese military history. What were your sources? The Portuguese regulars and their British allies played a major role in defeating the French, brilliantly orchestrated by Wellington, expelling the French invasor from Portugal, through Spain and all the way to Southern France. And let's not forget the amazing Lines of Torres Vedras - the maginot line of the XIX century (only more effective)!

www.wikipedia.org

[moley102]

A good book on the war, written by a British historian (which makes it even better as most of these accounts seem to merely recite a list of Wellington's victories) is "The Peninsular War" by Esdaile. Looks at the social, economic and political situations in Spain and Portugal before the fighting started, and examines these factors throughout, as well as havign thourough battle accounts and campaign history. Definitely a good one to look up if you're interested.

[Benny]

Thanks, moley. It is indeed a great book (I bought it 3-4 months ago), interesting to read and very detailled. However, I noticed that Esdaille pays more attention to the effects of war in Spain, its people and its internal politics, than to the Portuguese role. Fortunately, the Portuguese military historians have now turned their attention to these matters, and some good books, written from our point of view and according to our sources, are beggining to come out too. I hope that the exceptional work of Esdaille serves as their model.

[Loco]

The Portuguese regulars and their British allies played a major role in defeating the French, brilliantly orchestrated by Wellington, expelling the French invasor from Portugal, through Spain and all the way to Southern France. And let's not forget the amazing Lines of Torres Vedras - the maginot line of the XIX century (only more effective)!
That´s fantastic. I´m sure that Portugal won the last european championship of football and England is still the main empire of the world, like in the time of queen Vicky, nobody realised of that but it´s a good kept secret.
I´m amazed that spaniards were liberated thanks to english and portugueses. It´s shure that little details aren´t important in that war, like that more than the half of french soldiers killed in action in that war(about 400.000 thousand) were killed by spanish guerrilleros, the frenchs killed by spanish regular army have their own yield, or that the war began only because the spanish people declared by themselves, against the willing of our own kings, the war against the frenchs and it was only then when english saw the only chance to warring french in european soil, in friendly soil. It must be an insignificant detail too that the french army suffered its first defeat in Napoleon era in spanish soil as early as in july of 1808 at the hands of a spanish army, no portugueses or english soldiers there, or may be there were portugueses there, but like a secret force.
It was a pity that spaniards didn´t have the maginot line of XIX century nor they had the chance to evacute their soldiers far long when they faced superior french forces, like the case of John Moore hurrying back to sweet England or Welllington behind the walls of Torres Vedras at the beginning of every winter. Spaniards only could fight alone 365 days a years. Better alone that with bad friends.
Bon Nadal, Merry Christsmas to our liberators. :P

[Benny]

I don't know if you read Esdaille's book, but what I meant is that a significant part of his work is dedicated to the internal affairs of the spanish juntas, its corruption, rivalries and the general ineffectiveness of the spanish politicians that one almost forgets that the french armies were really beaten in the field, in regular battles, by regular anglo-portuguese armies, and through the brilliant generalship of Wellington. Esdaille and Wellington consider very poor the behaviour of the spanish army and of most of its generals, but it's undeniable that the guerrillas where fundamental in the role of attacking the lines of communications, isolated small garrisons, etc. But let's not forget that major french held fortresses and whole french armies where taken or beaten in the old fashioned way, on the battlefield, by regular armies. The spanish first defeated the french in Bailén, in 1808, but that didn't put an end to french occupation and attrocities. Wellington did, in spite of the spanish authorities incompetence, corruption and lack of enthusiasm. There were no Lines of Torres Vedras simply because the spanish gave too much confidence to the french, who they invited to their own country to be theyr allies in conquering Portugal (of course you needed allies to such a difficult mission). However, fate played a trick on the spanish regime and the french became an occupying force. As always, the spanish (and portuguese) civilians payed the heavyest price, with hundreds of thousand of dead.
Wellington also said "I do not expect much from the exertions of the spanish... They cry viva and are very fond of us, but they are in general the most incapable of all nations that I have known, the most vain and at the same time the most ignorant... I am afraid that the utmost we can hope for is to teach them how to avoid being beat".
A for the european championship, we didn't won. We lost twice againt the Greeks... But at least we beat the spanish ;)

[Benny]

Hey loco, I just found one of your quotes, posted last year: "As usual always there´s a portuguese flying around like the flys on the ****". You spoke the truth, my friend... There is a proud Portuguese fly and it has landed, many centurys ago, just beside your country. ;)
Feliz Navidad

[Yosy]

There were no Lines of Torres Vedras simply because the spanish gave too much confidence to the french, who they invited to their own country to be theyr allies in conquering Portugal (of course you needed allies to such a difficult mission).

I don't agree. If Spain wanted to invade Portugal they could. Portugal is undefensible, unless you count the Madeira and Azores. That's what the american generals tried to explain to our own, in the 50s, when we joined NATO. But our's thought that two tank divisions stationed in the Pyrenees would be enough to stop the Red Army :cantbeli: The problem is after the invasion. The portuguese people would never, EVER accept Portugal as a province of Spain. Its in our blood. Even today, the idea of an united Iberia isn't supported by almost anyone in here.

[fantassin]

And it only took SEVEN years and THREE countries to achieve that while it was only a secondary front for Napoleon...

And then, the French came back less than twenty years latter to help restaure the Spanish monarchy...

[Benny]

Yosi - The war of the Oranges (1801) showed that Spain alone had a very limited diplomatic and military (due to lack of an adequate logistic system, professional armies and effective military leadership) ability to wage war on foreign ground. Spain was simply no longer the european power that it thought it was. Facing Spain alone, Portugal lost Olivença, but it was not the national disaster that one could expect from the Spanish threat. However, I agree that things could be very different when viewed on the light of the XX century military doctrine, but that's a different history. I was referring only to the napoleonic period. Esdaille criticizes the behaviour of the Spainsh Juntas, their regular armies, career generals, NCO's and their internal intrigues and plots. The braveness of the true guerrilleros and of the spanish people as a whole is unquestionable. No other people in Europe (except the Russian) was more stoic or corageous under Franch occupation than the Peninsulars.
As for Wellington, he was a very harsh (and often unjust) judge of everyone, English, Spanish or whatever nationality. I sometimes think that he respected more their French enemies than its european allies, including the King's German Legion. But to be fair, let's not forget that it was the Anglo-Portuguese army that finaly defeated the French armies in the Peninsula. Some spanish may find it hard to swallow that, but that's their shame. Willpower, patriotism, religious faith and courage aren't always enough against cannons and well disciplined armies. The French also resisted the Germans during WWII, but they surely didn't liberated themselves (wasn't yugoslavia the only country to achieve that?).

Fantassin - I also agree that the Spanish ulcer was a secondary theatre, when compared to the central europe. However, the great powers of central europe were repeatedly and sistematically beaten during most part of the Napoleonic period, and that lasted more than seven years. Only after conquering Spain and placing his brother Joseph on the throne, was Napoleon forced to send many of its veteran and elite regiments to Russia and, after that decisive disaster, the remaining ones to face the Austrians, Prussians and Russians menacing the French borders. After Salamanca and Vitoria, all that remained of the Grand Armee were, mostly, inexperienced (although numerous), poorly equiped armies.

[Loco]

Fantassin, nobody denied the fact that french army in the early XIX were a formidable force, they were with difference the best army of the world, it was your moment, all branches of french army were superb: the staff, officers, soldiers, logistics, administration, even the post mail service!...but you never could won in Spain, just because of the willing of spanish citizens, not of our governors. And Fantassin, the 100.000 sons of Saint Louis, or SOB like spaniards said before, had an easy trip in Spain that time because Fernando VII, a true bastard, called them to come, spanish army didn´t say a word only for eviting a civil war(that in fact we suffered 13 years later), and like Chautebriand recognized: "it´s easy when you have guerrilleros on your side", and frenchs brought tiranny to Spain like they did 15 years before. You can compare spanish in 1823 with frenchs in 1940, there was a heroic resistance, very silent and secret ;)

Mr.Benny, I know Portugal and portugueses at least as much as portugueses think they know spanish, and I know the role Spain and spanish plays in portugues historical conscience. Well, I feel nothing except a slight simpathy and a slight indifference towards Portugal, the same that many spanish that live far from Portugal, and that means I can judge our relations with cold mind, I know that talking with portugueses as a spanish means that the person I have in front of me has some reticence that he´s willing to show. I care nothing about the opinion that Wellington had about spaniards and our business, it´s enough for me that a pig like Fernando VII concecorated him. The war began bloodly in Spain because spanish, we the people, not our government nor your government nor your people, rebelled agaisnt frenchs and they couldn´t defeat us. It´s easy to critize the organization of a country when this country was given without a shot to Napoleon and all our government and our administration was beheaded. Talking about the disorganization of Juntas I insist it´s very easy, remember that frenchs didn´t invade Spain by force, Carlos IV opened the door to them peacefully in 1807 for preparing the war agaisnt your country, spaniards didn´t have wire TV or internet 2 centuries ago, they didn´t realized that frenchs were invading our country as a conquered one and that they planned to own the 4 catalunian provinces as french departments. The sublevation began only when spaniards saw with their own eyes that spanish monarchs were sent to France, but it was too late then, frenchs had appropiated all resources of power, spanish had nothing to communicating between them. The Juntas were born spontaneusly, the first in Asturias, the first spanish kingdom, to asume an authority that didn´t exist. What it was a big triumph, organizating a true resistance in spite of frenchs I see is considered by english as an anarchy and a plot of corrupt powers.
Wellington can´t complain about spaniards, only shut his damn mouth, at the same time he was fighting near spanish he was destroying our shipyards in the cities controlled by spanish. Talking about disorganization in the mouth of british it doesn´t sound genuine. Wellington after three or four years of war had to fill his english regiments with spanish recruits because he couldn´t recruit enough men at home, as if they were fighting in other places than in Spain. John Moore, in a typical english disaster described as an heroic retreat, was defeated because he simply didn´t face the french army and he prefered to fly away in the height of the winter through a route of more than 600km under the snow, his soldiers were remembered in the Leon region not only worst than the frenchs but as the worst calamity in that region in centuries, his army even abandoned near Leon the civil contingent of english(sons, babies, wifes and girl friends) that followed his army **** and hungry in december of 1808, is this british organization and the willing of fighting frenchs?

If you portugueses and british like to live in your life of fantasy, well, you´re free to do it, but don´t tell lies about the war agaisnt Napoleon. We suffered the most of KIA and we did the most french KIA. Last battle in spanish soil was in San Marcial, the most allied soldiers were spanish. Talking about english and portugueses as the main force that defeated Napoleon is as ridiculous and petulant as talking of british as the main force fighting against Hitler. Even I don´t accept to compare spanish with russians, Russia has thousands of kilometers ro retreat waiting for a better moment, Napoleon wasn´t expelled from Moscow by russian but by the cold and the hunger, frenchs were in Russia only 6 months, but they were in Spain more than 5 years, and of course died more frenchs in Spain than in Russia.

[Benny]

Do you actually believe that Wellington just walked over to Spain after you liberated yourselves from the French armies? Coa, Busaco, Torres Vedras, Fuentes de Onoro, Talavera, Albuera, Badajoz, Salamanca, Vitoria and the Pyrenees where just easy stops along the way to southern France? If so, sorry for the inconvenience... We just inadvertedly stole the glory of defeating several french armies on the battlefield. Sorry, we didn't know that that role was reserved for the spanish. Soult, Massena, Marmont, Jourdan and their armies, with all their regiments, cavalry and artillery would undoubtely be decisively defeated on the field and expelled from Spain without any external help.
You also claim that there were more French casualties in Spain than in the campaign of Russia. If so, how many? And what is your source? According to the Collins Encyclopedia of Military History, French and allied losses in the Russian campaign numbered 300.000, in a period of 6 months. Some other sources speak of 400.000 to 600.000 casualties - a number I find quite exagerated. The effects of the French defeat in Russia were catastrophic and directly determined the end of the Napoleonic era. Surely you can't claim that the heroic true guerrileros would someday defeat several french field armies, invade France, capture Paris, force Napoleon to abdicate, exile him to the Canarias and defeat him again at Waterloo, with some minor help from Blucher. The guerrilleros would hold Hogoumont and La Haye Sante, take cover against French artillery, form disciplined squares against Ney's cavalry, engage the Imperial Guard in line, release one volley from their blunderbusses and advance in waves, shouting VIVA LA ESPANÃ! The French would see the cold steel of their daggers and panic. At that moment, the 1st and 2nd regiment of Donkey Cavalry would charge them and clear them off the battlefield. You see, as I live in the world of fantasy and lies, I'm beggining to believe in this not-so-unreal scenario.
I don't want to offend you, my friend Loco, and I would be uncapable to disregard or ignore the tremendous courage and sacrifice of all the spanish (and portuguese) guerrilleros, but I stand by my opinion: The French were driven out of the Peninsula by the decisive actions of the Anglo-Portuguese allied army, commanded by Wellington. The Portuguese guerrilleros were also unable to expel the French from Portugal. There's no shame in that! They (portuguese and spanish guerrilleros) performed wonderfully in their role, holding many french divisions in isolated garrison that could do serious harm against the regular allied army, attacking their comunications, dispercing their forces, creating fear and demoralising the French (the French wouldn't go out at night to take a piss unless escorted by a light company), stripping the fields of anything that could be useful to the french, forcing them to scout for food further and further away from their camps, cities, fortresses and garrissons, looking for spies and afrancesados, observing the enemy movements, ambushing them whenever possible, sometimes even winning some small or medium scale irregular battle, etc, etc. But in the end one thing is for sure - those occupying armies still remain there, shaken or not, at the end of the day, unless decisiveley destroyed on the battlefield. I believe that that was true in the Peninsula during the early XIX century, as it was true in WWII, in occupied europe and asia, as it in present day Iraq.

[MARINO]

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We were the only country invade by France who did that.
BTW Napoleon said ,After the war,( just read his memories) his biggest mistake was to didn't take care of Spanish people.

[Benny]

The Portuguese revolted against the French occupation a few days after the riots began in Madrid. The British landed in Portugal when they found that the popular revolt was stable enough to allow a safe landing of their army. Junot was defeated afterwards in Rolica and Vimieiro, and negotiated a safe passage back to France, with the remaining of his army and all the stolen property from the portuguese, on english ships. News of this agreement caused a scandal in England but Wellington was considered innocent and later appointed commanding general of the British forces in Portugal. Wellington's superior officer (I can't remember his name) was relieved of command and sent away in disgrace.
Nobody denies that Napoleon made a huge mistake ordering the invasion of Portugal and the occupation of Spain withouth commiting enough troops. The contribution of the people, who revolted against the will of their authorities (in Spain) was a factor unexpected to Napoleon, who was then master of europe. He was never able to admit to his mistake (not until his defeat, anyway) and was simply not prepared to fight against popular rebellion on the *****ula, as it was a phenomenon that had never happened on the countries that Napoleon invaded in central europe.

[Yosy]

The biggest irony of this all is that Napoleon invaded the Peninsula because of Portugal. At the time, Portugal was the only european country that stood up against the Continental Blockade, because of an year-old treaty (still in place) that united Portugal to England.

[Loco]

My esteemed Benny, I don´t like dicusssions that talk about the angels ***. Frenchs casualties in Spain in napoleonic wars are considered well over 400.000 deads. What you insist in ignoring is the fact that if there was any peninsular war is because we, spanish, declared the war agaisnt Napoleon and agaisnt the willing of our own king. And what you pretend to ignore is that, added to our guerrilleros, there were a very respectable spanish regular army that defeated before than any continental army the frenchs in the battlefield of Bailen, and this regular army supported beat after beat during more than 4 years, you talking bout that strange anglo-portuguese army as a whole army pretend to ignore the effort developped only by spanish regular army and militias in the several sieges suffered by cities like Zaragoza and Girona, and you ignore that were only spanish that liberated the north and northwest of Spain only 6 months of the retreat and defeat of John Moore´s army, no portugueses nor british in that regions, only british ships arriving to northern spanish ports after being liberated by spanish. What you must answer is what were doing spanish every winter during 4 years when british and portugueses retreated behind Torres Vedras. Its simply ridicule what you are saying, I finish here with that, I´ve said all arguments, it´s the same if you say you portuguese are the more handsome and wise men of the world. Only saying that spanish regular army defeated english army 2 or 3 years before both in American and in Europe, and we have a long tradition of battling english infantry before that, and about portuguese army, well, there was that war os "das laranjas", if it deserves that name, where spanish army fought? with portuguese army only 2 or 3 years before portugueses liberated Spain. To know who´s the worst enemy, you only have to listen the soldiers, in the IIWW germans usually mention russians, no Hollywood heroes, I´m sorry but french soldiers didn´t talk a lot of portugueses or british soldiers, but spanish, or prussians or russians in a short period of time. And my portuguese friend, I´m sorry you´rent british, nobody is perfect, but talking about "Peninsular Wars" is strange, too strange for me, that´s a term of british historiography, I doubt even in Portugal your historians talk of "Peninsular wars".
Good by, obrigado. ;)

[Ichhabe]

Hmm? Something got triggered here. :D

[Yosy]

What you insist in ignoring is the fact that if there was any peninsular war is because we, spanish, declared the war agaisnt Napoleon and agaisnt the willing of our own king.

Nations declare wars, not inhabitants of. If your king/president or whatever the Supreme Commander of the Armed Force is called, didn't declare war, then Spain isn't at war.


To know who´s the worst enemy, you only have to listen the soldiers, in the IIWW germans usually mention russians, no Hollywood heroes, I´m sorry but french soldiers didn´t talk a lot of portugueses or british soldiers, but spanish, or prussians or russians in a short period of time. And my portuguese friend, I´m sorry you´rent british, nobody is perfect, but talking about "Peninsular Wars" is strange, too strange for me, that´s a term of british historiography, I doubt even in Portugal your historians talk of "Peninsular wars".


What are you saying? That withouth the "mighty" of Spain, France couldn't be defeated? Spain only got involved in this because of us: Portugal dragged Spain in to the war. The whole Peninsula War was a side-show: it was the failure of Napoleon's Grand Armee that defeated him, just as it was the invasion of USSR that defeated Hitler.

[Benny]

Well, let me remind you that we started talking about Esdaille's book, named "The Peninsular War". I've also said before that the theme is now being treated by Portuguese war historians, and the term commonly applied to this period is "As Invasões Francesas". The allied army retreated behind the Lines of Torres Vedras after winning a battle in Busaco and it was considered a wise manouver. Massena was completely surprised by the appearance of such formidable Lines, and he had no way of knowing how many enemy forces were behind them. Lacking resources he was forced to retreat, being harassed all the way back to the spanish border.
It's true that the spanish defeated the British infantry in Argentina, some time before, but Wellington was a much more competent general and, quite frankly, the spanish regulars were simply no match for any well disciplined army at that time. Sometimes they performed well on the battlefield, that's true, but they were an unreliable ally. Let's not forget the time that a whole Spanish Brigade panicked and fled from the field after hearing the sound of their own volley!
Moore's retreat was disastrous, and the British behaved like the French during the retreat, pillaging and murdering along the way, but he ended up figthing and winning a battle in La Corunna (Moore's still buried there, if I'm not mistaken).
My friend Loco, let me finish by saying that the Peninsular War, the Invasões Francesas or the Guerra de Independencia started entirely because of the spanish. I admit it, the honor of starting it belong exclusively to the spanish people, not the Portuguese nor the British... But, my friend, let's also not forget who ended it.
Feliz Anõ Nuevo ;)

[MARINO]

By the 3 countries ;)

[Loco]

I think evrybody had the experience of talking with a couple of proud and ugly fathers, both amazed talking about their baby:"Oh, cuchicuchi, look at her, ishn´t she lovely? isn´t she beatiful?" The baby, of course, looks like her ugly parents, but...oh mate, all babies are pretties at last and if they aren´t beauty you must say they are, you won´t go to the hell for telling such lie.
My esteemed Benny, excuse me but still I don´t call you my friend because I´m sincere and I never met you before. If you say spanish army at the beginning of XIX "were simply no match for any well disciplined army at that time" you are behaving like a proud portuguese father, I can´t deceive you. So portugueses and british were defeated recently by spanish but they didn´t consider favourably our army, that´s a strange world. I read here many times the nice polish boys talking about war against Napoleon, and if you believe them, it seems as in Spain still today we´re terrified by the incredibly fierce polish soldiers that gave to Napoleon the victory in all his battles.
Of course you must not considerer a well disciplined army the portuguese one of that time defeated in the time you take to breath once time. Spanish army defeated quickly a strong british force in Buenos Aires in 1804 capturing the general of that force, and defeated quickly a british landing force in the northwest of Spain in 1806, only two years before Wellington, the the same that twenty years before in what today is USA. Spanish troops fought in the south of France in the region of Tolon, in the time of the Revolution wars, and they didn´t worst than the allied countries that tried to suffocate the french revolution. Just before the war agaisnt the frenchs in Spain, there were a expeditionary spanish division in Denmark and in the few time they spent there, they did more than well taking by force a fortress, frankly I don´t know if they were fighting against the dannish or the swedish, anyway both them are nice people.

About strictly GB and Spain, at the same time that Wellington said spanish troops were not trusties, GB was financing the sublevation of american territories with money, ammunitions and at last with hired ships and crews, this at the same time that british were fighting side by side with spanish in our home. Spanish had to both reasing armies after armies for fighting agaisnt frenchs but for fighting too in American, our fleet was dispersed, british as I said, after they entered in a spanish coast city previously liberated by spanish, they destroyed our shipyards. The pillage of Moore troops weren´t an exception. Towards the end of the war, british sacked and pillaged the city of San Sebastian in a way you can´t compared with frenchs, because San Sebastian was a friendly city. Keep your proud for you, my portugues future friend, but don´t say nonsense because you know nothing about war in Spain.

It´s a pity that both portuguese and british can consider that spanish army was worst than their own, if you consider that both were defeated recently and more than once time by spanish, if at least you pretended to teach us abouth sea war I could consider your opinions in a better way. It doesn´t matter, força Portugal! Portugal vincedor! Portugal emriba da Espanha!
An

[Yosy]

It´s a pity that both portuguese and british can consider that spanish army was worst than their own, if you consider that both were defeated recently and more than once time by spanish, if at least you pretended to teach us abouth sea war I could consider your opinions in a better way. It doesn´t matter, força Portugal! Portugal vincedor! Portugal emriba da Espanha!


rofl

Winning battles isn't the same as winning wars.

Yes, we get the idea: Spain's army was the best in the world. That's why Spain was such a powerful nation in the XIX century. I'm suprised that, with all this mighty army, Spain managed to loose its american colonies.

You don't look like an ugly father saying that his ugly baby is beautiful - to me, you look like an arrogant father saying that his son beats the crap out of everyone else's sons, and its the best son in the world.

[MARINO]

We lose cuz we were figthing against Spanish army based in America and Spanish living in America :P

[Loco]

Yosi, you are answering to arguments I didn´t said, but if you and Benny like to play the game of chauvinism, I don´t like. First of all: XIX began the year 1801, and this century finished the years 1900, do you understand it? At the beginning of that century Spanish had the third navy of the world, and a very good and respectable regular army, may be the second or the third of Europe, and an old and still by then recent tradition of winning battles and wars. I´ve never said that was the same situation at the end of XIX. In any case, at the beginning of the XIX spanish regular army was a disciplined, hardened and experienced army both in the colonies and in Europe, something that Portugal never will can say. And in 1800 it´s clear that spanish army could be compared favourably with english army, and if you permit me, with portuguese army.
Talking about lossing the american territories owed to the fact that spanish army was bad is a nonsense and you know that it is: It was as simply as spanish of America fought for their indepence, even some of then fought with us the first years in Spain agaisnt the frenchs. If you considere that spanish in the metropoli were invaded and still they could sustain the war in that territories more that 15 years with the high losses we had at home, with our "allied" betraying us simultaneously in American, it means our army wasn´t so bad and they should have had some kind of good organization. An army, I insist, that defeated both portugueses and british several times the last 30 years before the war agaisnt the frenchs.
20.000 frenchs with their general were prisioners in the battle of Bailen by spanish army, cities like Zaragoza and Girona caused more losses to frenchs than your portugueses and british in some battles you mentioned before, when portugueses in occupied territories fought in the same way than spanish? I never denied that british, and portugueses of course, had an important contribution in fighting frenchs, but you think twice before saying anything like your country and british had the main role in defeating the frenchs because you aren´t credible, history and facts don´t back you.

[Benny]

I think that this topic, somehow, became a pissing contest. As I don't want to wet my own shoes, I sugest we change the subject, concentrating the discussion on our former enemy: The French. I would also like to learn some more about the spanish point of view on this matter. Senõr Loco, as you seem to know a lot about the subject, can you suggest some good spanish book? Maybe I can buy it in the Cervantes bookstore in Lisbon. My spanish is a bit rusty but I think I can manage.
And returning to the French topic, I think it's safe to say that on the other European countries Napoleon invaded, there was no popular reaction similar to the one that hapened on the Iberian Peninsula? Why? Lack of patriotism? Religious motives?

I believe that the depredations of the French against the civilians and the church is the main reason for the popular reaction. The french army was used to forage the cities and the countryside to assure its survival, and that surely drove the people to revolt. In spain, we should also add another factor: Napoleon appointed his brother Joseph to the throne, which turned out to be a major blow to the proud (and interests) of the spaniards.

I think that the ottomans in Egypt reacted very much the same way against the French- and Napoleon had to flee, abandoning the troops to its fate. The British intervened also, Nelson's navy defeating the French Navy in the Battle of the Nile, isolating the French garrison and accepting their surrender.

[Yosy]

And returning to the French topic, I think it's safe to say that on the other European countries Napoleon invaded, there was no popular reaction similar to the one that hapened on the Iberian Peninsula? Why? Lack of patriotism? Religious motives?


Interesting. Portugal has the bad habit of the "last-to-know" factor, due to our position in Europe. Other european countries more close to France (Spain included) might be more informed of the ideals of the French Revolution and thus they would (in the beginning) french troops as liberators. France made a big strategic error when invaded the Peninsula - the way they treated the Church. Both Portugal and Spain were deep Catholic countries.

[Knutsen]

Ha ha ha!!!!!!
Spanish -Portuguese written battle!!!!!
Don't worry guys , reinforcements are coming! Let's kick these towel-makers' ass!!!!

Jokes appart (no offense to our portuguese neighbors), facts are facts, and only interpretations can "change" them. Don't take it as a Spanish are better or Portuguese are better.
If the spanish people (or as many people would say , terrorists) hadn't sublevated then Portugal would have become a "merienda de negros" for France.
The biggest battles happened in Spain, Spain inflicted the biggest number of KIAs to the French, but without Portugal , Spain wouldn't have done it.
It was the union of our countries what defeated France.
But since we weren't there we'll have to look at books or old files to know what happened, and those books say it was Spanish bravery and determination the key factor to defeat the French .
But guys, try to avoid British books about this war, of course they'll be the key factor who destroyed the French with the small help of us , poor third-world iberians.

PS. Just an anecdote, the Battle of Bailen was the first Napoleon defeat EVER, he got so angry about it that put that battle in his Arc du triomphe as a victorious battle.

[Benny]

A few years ago I visited Paris and I was amazed to see that "Almeida" was posted there as a "Big French Victory". I don't know if the rest of you are familiar with the story but the fortress of Almeida really did blew up, at the beggining of what would otherwise be a long siege, due to a freak french shot that ignited a trail of powder from a barrel that was just being taken away from the magazine (kind like a cartoon movie tragedy). Some officers and troopers tried unsucessfully to stop the trail of flames but it went under the reinforced door and it entered the magazine. By the time they got the key that could open the door everything blew up - The explosion was heard hundreds of kilometers away, and created a huge mushroom cloud (!). Almeida might be considered, from the french point of view, like the only sucess in the third (and last) invasion of Portugal. But I would never dream that Bailen was written in the arc du triomphe! That's completely ridiculous! The french had many clear victories, but Bailen was a clear defeat!
As for the historic sources, from iberian authors, I was really interested in reading something in spanish, from a different point of view.

[MARINO]

Ha ha ha!!!!!!
Spanish -Portuguese written battle!!!!!
Don't worry guys , reinforcements are coming! Let's kick these towel-makers' ass!!!!

Jokes appart (no offense to our portuguese neighbors), facts are facts, and only interpretations can "change" them. Don't take it as a Spanish are better or Portuguese are better.
If the spanish people (or as many people would say , terrorists) hadn't sublevated then Portugal would have become a "merienda de negros" for France.
The biggest battles happened in Spain, Spain inflicted the biggest number of KIAs to the French, but without Portugal , Spain wouldn't have done it.
It was the union of our countries what defeated France.
But since we weren't there we'll have to look at books or old files to know what happened, and those books say it was Spanish bravery and determination the key factor to defeat the French .
But guys, try to avoid British books about this war, of course they'll be the key factor who destroyed the French with the small help of us , poor third-world iberians.

PS. Just an anecdote, the Battle of Bailen was the first Napoleon defeat EVER, he got so angry about it that put that battle in his Arc du triomphe as a victorious battle.

When i visited Paris i knew about this history and y searched Bailen Star. And it's false. There is no Bailen Star ;)

[Knutsen]

When i visited Paris i knew about this history and y searched Bailen Star. And it's false. There is no Bailen Star

Did you hear about that story in school? ****, i think 99% of spaniards have been told that story in school. I don't know if that's true, personally i've been to Paris some times but never payed much attetntion to the arch du triomphe.

[MARINO]

It was my father who told my that. I've studied in a French school. in france and In Spain ;)