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b.scheller
12-23-2004, 02:42 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino10.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-555.jpg

http://www.koch-athene.de/images/6th/aschaffenburg/45asch7.jpg

http://www.1939-45.org/images/imarticl/cassino/cassino.jpg

http://digitallibrary.smu.edu/cul/gir/ww2/mcsc/italy/images/mcs031it.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-557.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-554.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino11.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino3.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino2.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino8.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino5.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino4.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44b.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44a.jpg

http://www.curme.co.uk/cas14.jpg

http://img150.exs.cx/img150/8347/montecassino010zq.jpg

Howie Kaluha
12-23-2004, 02:42 AM
Great pics.....

Phil642
12-23-2004, 04:26 AM
Historical moment in the WWII!

Good to remind it Barb'

Millen
12-23-2004, 04:33 AM
Great pics man save all thx

One of the hardes battle in WWII

Spud
12-23-2004, 05:17 AM
And unfortunately what none of those photos show is just how intimidating that feature is. I saw it up close a few weeks ago while on leave and I still have trouble comprhending how anyone assaulted that place. Despite the prep barrages, air strikes etc a few fixed MG's and assualting force would be massacred ... truly one of the most amazing operations of the war.

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 05:31 AM
Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

aleczapka
12-23-2004, 05:33 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

I recognize this photo. ;) Aren't they Polish granadiers?

Freibier
12-23-2004, 05:38 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Millen
12-23-2004, 05:41 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

I recognize this photo. ;) Aren't they Polish granadiers?

yep Polish fight with great bravery in Monte Casino awsome fighters

drGreen
12-23-2004, 06:26 AM
what a waiste of good ammo that bombing of the abbey

Scottie
12-23-2004, 06:38 AM
Great pics!! An Amazing Historical Battle!

Marmot1
12-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot


AFAIR they left abbey after they were flanked from the right... and it was pointless to hold it any longer

Kitsune
12-23-2004, 10:31 AM
The German Fallschirmjäger had developed quite a sense of defiance to hold their position "one more day" and "one day more" and so on. They were so disgrunteld at the order to withdraw that they first ignored it...only after it was repeated did they obey.
Allegedly after the Battle of Monte Cassino the British General Alexander said that the German partroopers would be the best soldiers of the world.
In any case, praise from your enemy is the best praise. :D

skycaptain
12-23-2004, 10:48 AM
In which year?
Thanks! :lol:

SpiderKid
12-23-2004, 10:56 AM
In which year?
Thanks! :lol:

WWII - the one Japan screwed China over rofl

sp2c
12-23-2004, 10:57 AM
from january until 15th of februari 1944 I think but I'm not sure

supposedly one of the hardest fought fights of WW2

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 11:05 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Freibier
12-23-2004, 11:09 AM
January 12th till May 19th, 1944.

sp2c
12-23-2004, 11:14 AM
for as far as I know the fallschirmjaeger behaved themselves honourably dury in general so yeah I'd call them heroes if I ever meet some.

according to my grandfather (he fought in and among Rotterdam) they were quite hard but fair during the may hostilities in 1940 he held no grudges towards them (unlike some of the other units)

perdurabo
12-23-2004, 11:22 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!
AGREED!

LordHalbert
12-23-2004, 11:29 AM
I like the way they did things in WWII.

If a cathedral was being used as a military stronghold back then, they simply blew it up.

In Iraq today, we have to debate whether harming a mosque will irritate people even though it's crammed full of ammo.

It was just different back then - less nonsense and more action.

sp2c
12-23-2004, 11:39 AM
they bombed it only after weeks of heavy fighting.

I'm pretty sure that the US (or any other country in the world) will blow up any building religious or not if it stalled their advance for so long and gave them that much casualties

you just can't compare Iraq to ww2 on any subject

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 11:45 AM
for as far as I know the fallschirmjaeger behaved themselves honourably dury in general so yeah I'd call them heroes if I ever meet some.


But they did know for who and for what they were fighting for. And this is my problem in calling them heroes. Propably they just did their duty without any kind of crimes but they did their duty for a criminal.

@LordHalbert:
I think there is a diffenerence in christians blowing up christian churches and in christians blowing up mosques. That act of blowing it up propably solves the situation in this certain moment, but afterwards you get a problem with the whole islamic world.

donnergott
12-23-2004, 12:12 PM
us soldiers that fight in iraq knews for what and whom they fight too. and they were calling heros too. of course somebody means war in iraq is criminal too.

to the time of bombing, no german soldier stayed in the abbey. the monk don gregorio diamare confirmed this. but hundreds of wounded and civilians from the village cassino. they were murdered. so seen it was a warcrime.

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Well if you call a soldier hero or not depends on the point of view. I dont like war, and i wouldn´t like to be called a heroe if i was a soldier in a war.

oldsoak
12-23-2004, 12:35 PM
The defense of Cassino was very good and was conducted by good troops who were well led. The terrain favoured the defenders and the bombing gave them endless possibilities for forming defensive pockets. Trying to assault uphill in that sort of terrain against an entrenched enemy with good fields of fire, lots of ammo, plus endless possibilities for defensive positions takes some doing. It would have been interesting to see if the Germans could have done better if the roles were reversed.

Catch22
12-23-2004, 12:37 PM
As for german Falschirmjaegers we can sum it up - they were good, brave in means of soldiering and comradeship, but - unlucky for them, their case was unjust. That lays a shadow even onto most heroic and humane deeds they performed. That's the price not only of losing a war (WWI soldiers are to be honoured equally in my eyes), but a price of fighting on the side of indentifiable evil.

Marmot1
12-23-2004, 12:56 PM
us soldiers that fight in iraq knews for what and whom they fight too. and they were calling heros too. of course somebody means war in iraq is criminal too.

to the time of bombing, no german soldier stayed in the abbey. the monk don gregorio diamare confirmed this. but hundreds of wounded and civilians from the village cassino. they were murdered. so seen it was a warcrime.

cassino village was located few cilometers away and several hundreds meters below, so you claim that someone during firefight transported wounded civilians few kilometers uphill throgh frontline only to lay them in monastery full of germans? :cantbeli: look at map first... of course there were ppl in in but not hundreds... and as to war crime... you can't call it war crime since monastry was used as military fighting position and alies had no knowledge of who is insiede except for that germans were for sure...

donnergott
12-23-2004, 02:48 PM
read the books of your own historians and you would see, that you wrote bs.

j****z piekalkiewicz - battle of monte cassino

the civilians flew in the abbey to got protection.

you can also read it in e.d. smith - monte cassino 1944

Andyman
12-23-2004, 03:17 PM
my grandfather was there. He was a Canadian Sherman tank commander he told me that mote cassino was the toughest battle he had to endure of all WW2. He lost a really good friend at monte cassino. Yeah once he reached that part of the story he stopped talking.

:(

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 05:02 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

Is that a fact?. Wow, I didn't realise you were there Herrmanek, I mean actually standing next to General Freyberg when he made that decision. So why did he make that decision Herrmanek?, obvioulsy if you know it was the greatest 'fukkup' in that battle then you must obviously know the reasoning behind it right?

Of course you don't because all you are is another armchair general, pontificating on the decisions of others from the safety and comfort of your computer.

Here, i'll educate you.


With the Italian front bogged down, the Allied high command decided on a daring operation to break the deadlock, taking advantage of Allied command of the seas surrounding the Italian peninsula. The plan envisaged Clark's 5th Army breaking through the Gustav Line in the west while, the US VI Corps landed behind the German line at Anzio. For this operation 2nd New Zealand Division would come under Clark's command. Its role would be to exploit the breakthrough by driving up the Liri Valley towards Rome. In mid January 1944 the New Zealanders moved across the Apennines to the Volturno area, where they were to prepare for action. However the offensive did not go to plan: the 5th Army's attack was a costly failure, faltering before the immensely strong German position at Cassino, while VI Corps at Anzio, far from trapping a retreating enemy, soon found itself contained by rapidly redeployed German forces. In early february the New Zealanders were drawn into the Cassino inferno as part of the newly formed New Zealand Corps under Lieutenant-General Sir Bernard Freyberg VC, consisting of their Division, 4th Indian Division, and supporting American and British artillery.
The Gustav line rested securely on a line of mountains, which was broken only by a ten kilometre gap at the Liri valley. The mouth of this strategic valley was overlooked by Monte Cassino, a steep 500 metre high hill topped by the great Benedictine monastery. Below Monte Cassino lay the sheer promontory of Castle Hill, and then the town of Cassino and the Rapido river. The forbidding natural features had been strengthened by demolitions, minefields, flooding and fortifications, which had allowed the German defenders at Cassino to withstand the attacks of the American Corps for nearly three weeks. Although not confident about the task given him by Clark, Freyberg did not dissent, though, conscious of his responsibilities as a national commander as well as a Corp commander, he resolved to limit the number of casualties that the New Zealand division would incur. With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack. He hoped that a heavy aerial bombardment would open the way for the hapless infantry. Convinced that the Germans would not fail to use such a commanding feature as the monastery (an assumption which in retrospect proved to be incorrect), he insisted that the building had to be bombed. His request was approved at the highest level, by Commander-in-Chief General Sir Harold Alexander. Freyberg was informed that the air bombardment would take place on the 15 February, a full day and a half before his Corps would attack. Planning to move the Corps timetable forward to take advantage of the bombing was still in train when the bombing began.
The operation which would engender much post-war controversy, proved to be counter productive: reduced to rubble, the monastery became an even more effective fortress.
Under Freyberg's plan, the 4th Indian Division would take the monastery hill from the north while the New Zealanders cross the Rapido and isolated Cassino township from the south-east, allowing tanks to drive into the Liri valley. Because of the demolitions and flooded ground, only a single battalion could be used in the New Zealand attack. The attack began at midnight on the 17th, 28 Maori Battalion managed to secure positions around the railway station south of the town. The terrain however, prevented armoured support from reaching them. Close-quarter fighting followed as the Germans mounted an immediate counter attack supported by armour which drove the New Zealanders out with 130 casualties. With the Indians proving no more successful in their attacks on the hill, a lull in the fighting developed. While the New Zealand Corps clung to its precarious positions in the mud, the high command dithered. When no new ideas emerged, the corps was ordered to proceed with its attacks.
Because of delays imposed by the weather it was not until 15 March that 6th NZ Brigade attacked Cassino from the north, preceded by a massive aerial bombardment which reduce the town to a giant pile of rubble, but failed to smother German resistance. In Western Front-like conditions, the New Zealand infantry and tanks fought their way into the ruins, while one battalion seized Castle Hill above Cassino. By dusk the attack had lost its impetus, and for the next eight days continued to feed men into the battered town without being able to dislodge the enemy holding it. The wrecked Continental hotel in particular proved to be impregnable.
On 19 March 5th brigade was ordered into the rubble. Although there were now six infantry battalions in the town with armoured support, little progress could be made amid the ruins in the face of the tenacious German paratroopers. By 23rd Freyberg was forced to admit that the division 'had come to the end of its tether' and called a halt to the fruitless attacks. Isolated outposts were withdrawn and the division went on the defense. The New Zealand Corps was dissolved on the 26 March and the division withdrawn from Casino in early April.

The fighting had cost 2nd New Zealand Division 343 lives.

In May 1944 the 8th Army and 5th Army finally broke through the Gustav Line by an out flanking thrust. Monte Cassino fell at last, occupied by Poles with the assistance of New Zealand artillery.

2003 New Zealanders lost their lives in the Italian campaign and another 6705 were wounded.


From the 'Oxford Companion to New Zealand Military History'.

Before making definative statements Herrmanek you might want to do some research first, it'll save you from looking like a ****head.

Freibier wrote,

Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

Musashi
12-23-2004, 05:31 PM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot
Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

Polish soldiers seized [or "took" if you wish] the monastery on May 18th 1944. Therefore it can't be considered a battle won by Germans. Polish commander of II Corps congratulated German Fallschirmjaegers the fierce defence :)

BTW1
There was a program on German television in 70's (probably ZDF) which claimed the Polish soldiers had executed a wounded German soldiers left by their camrades in the ruins. Fortunately one of those former Fallschirmjaegers watched that program and contacted with German TV saying it it's a bull**** and Polish soldiers didn't execute any POW.

BTW2
My friends make a mod "Monte Cassino" for Close Combat IV.
There will be Polish and German soldiers only. We are looking for photos of German Fallschirmjaegers to make suitable icons.

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

Is that a fact?. Wow, I didn't realise you were there Herrmanek, I mean actually standing next to General Freyberg when he made that decision. So why did he make that decision Herrmanek?, obvioulsy if you know it was the greatest 'fukkup' in that battle then you must obviously know the reasoning behind it right?

Of course you don't because all you are is another armchair general, pontificating on the decisions of others from the safety and comfort of your computer.

Here, i'll educate you.


With the Italian front bogged down, the Allied high command decided on a daring operation to break the deadlock, taking advantage of Allied command of the seas surrounding the Italian peninsula. The plan envisaged Clark's 5th Army breaking through the Gustav Line in the west while, the US VI Corps landed behind the German line at Anzio. For this operation 2nd New Zealand Division would come under Clark's command. Its role would be to exploit the breakthrough by driving up the Liri Valley towards Rome. In mid January 1944 the New Zealanders moved across the Apennines to the Volturno area, where they were to prepare for action. However the offensive did not go to plan: the 5th Army's attack was a costly failure, faltering before the immensely strong German position at Cassino, while VI Corps at Anzio, far from trapping a retreating enemy, soon found itself contained by rapidly redeployed German forces. In early february the New Zealanders were drawn into the Cassino inferno as part of the newly formed New Zealand Corps under Lieutenant-General Sir Bernard Freyberg VC, consisting of their Division, 4th Indian Division, and supporting American and British artillery.
The Gustav line rested securely on a line of mountains, which was broken only by a ten kilometre gap at the Liri valley. The mouth of this strategic valley was overlooked by Monte Cassino, a steep 500 metre high hill topped by the great Benedictine monastery. Below Monte Cassino lay the sheer promontory of Castle Hill, and then the town of Cassino and the Rapido river. The forbidding natural features had been strengthened by demolitions, minefields, flooding and fortifications, which had allowed the German defenders at Cassino to withstand the attacks of the American Corps for nearly three weeks. Although not confident about the task given him by Clark, Freyberg did not dissent, though, conscious of his responsibilities as a national commander as well as a Corp commander, he resolved to limit the number of casualties that the New Zealand division would incur. With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack. He hoped that a heavy aerial bombardment would open the way for the hapless infantry. Convinced that the Germans would not fail to use such a commanding feature as the monastery (an assumption which in retrospect proved to be incorrect), he insisted that the building had to be bombed. His request was approved at the highest level, by Commander-in-Chief General Sir Harold Alexander. Freyberg was informed that the air bombardment would take place on the 15 February, a full day and a half before his Corps would attack. Planning to move the Corps timetable forward to take advantage of the bombing was still in train when the bombing began.
The operation which would engender much post-war controversy, proved to be counter productive: reduced to rubble, the monastery became an even more effective fortress.
Under Freyberg's plan, the 4th Indian Division would take the monastery hill from the north while the New Zealanders cross the Rapido and isolated Cassino township from the south-east, allowing tanks to drive into the Liri valley. Because of the demolitions and flooded ground, only a single battalion could be used in the New Zealand attack. The attack began at midnight on the 17th, 28 Maori Battalion managed to secure positions around the railway station south of the town. The terrain however, prevented armoured support from reaching them. Close-quarter fighting followed as the Germans mounted an immediate counter attack supported by armour which drove the New Zealanders out with 130 casualties. With the Indians proving no more successful in their attacks on the hill, a lull in the fighting developed. While the New Zealand Corps clung to its precarious positions in the mud, the high command dithered. When no new ideas emerged, the corps was ordered to proceed with its attacks.
Because of delays imposed by the weather it was not until 15 March that 6th NZ Brigade attacked Cassino from the north, preceded by a massive aerial bombardment which reduce the town to a giant pile of rubble, but failed to smother German resistance. In Western Front-like conditions, the New Zealand infantry and tanks fought their way into the ruins, while one battalion seized Castle Hill above Cassino. By dusk the attack had lost its impetus, and for the next eight days continued to feed men into the battered town without being able to dislodge the enemy holding it. The wrecked Continental hotel in particular proved to be impregnable.
On 19 March 5th brigade was ordered into the rubble. Although there were now six infantry battalions in the town with armoured support, little progress could be made amid the ruins in the face of the tenacious German paratroopers. By 23rd Freyberg was forced to admit that the division 'had come to the end of its tether' and called a halt to the fruitless attacks. Isolated outposts were withdrawn and the division went on the defense. The New Zealand Corps was dissolved on the 26 March and the division withdrawn from Casino in early April.

The fighting had cost 2nd New Zealand Division 343 lives.

In May 1944 the 8th Army and 5th Army finally broke through the Gustav Line by an out flanking thrust. Monte Cassino fell at last, occupied by Poles with the assistance of New Zealand artillery.

2003 New Zealanders lost their lives in the Italian campaign and another 6705 were wounded.


From the 'Oxford Companion to New Zealand Military History'.

Before making definative statements Herrmanek you might want to do some research first, it'll save you from looking like a ****head.

Freibier wrote,

Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

I don't see nothing contrary with what i said... bombing was bad decission...and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time or not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important... output counts not input... He made situation worse so its fukkup...

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 06:07 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

I don't see nothing contrary with what i said... bombing was bad decission...and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time or not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important... output counts not input... He made situation worse so its fukkup...

Of course you don't, blinded as you are by arrogance and ignorance.

Allright, i'll break it down for you.


bombing was bad decission... In hindsight, but then thats always 20/20 isn't it?


and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time ...isn't important Riiight......you really are an armchair general aren't you?. Anyone who says knowledge, or lack of, in warfare is unimportant is at best an amateur, at worst ignorant.


not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important How do you know he didn't consider other options?, evidence proves that he did in fact consider other options
With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack.


output counts not input Do you apply that theory to your own country's performance in WW2.........

Musashi wrote,

Polish soldiers seized [or "took" if you wish] the monastery on May 18th 1944. Therefore it can't be considered a battle won by Germans. Polish commander of II Corps congratulated German Fallschirmjaegers the fierce defence

Try reading the article I posted again. I was refering to the battle for the township of Cassino which the Polish played no part in.

I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.

Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.

National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.

Musashi
12-23-2004, 06:19 PM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 06:20 PM
Ngati damn you totaly missed my point.. I agree with you on your historical remarks, i don't say he was bad commander, I agree he considered other solutions and with good will decided that bombing **** out of the place is best move basing on given data, but post factum revealed that this decision was wrong, so it is fukkup :)... And hell I'm not armchair general... only thing we differ is qualification of his move you say it was unavoidable coincidence basing on what data he had and what other choices he don't and i say it was fukup basing on output... end of story... :)

b.scheller
12-23-2004, 06:50 PM
Soldiers were slaughtered there, in the act that the Allies believed that taking the Monestary would shorten the war. In the end did it really? Or would it have been better to have just went around it and saved thousands of lives, just like Ortona. I'm sorry but the allied command made some grevious errors on their part, and people knew about them and i'm sure the command even knew the possibility of total **** up. Just look at Operation Market Garden, or Ortona. So many lives lost for sheer Allied stupidity.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 06:54 PM
Musashi wrote,

I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:

Yes, but I wrote,

Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

Refering to the battle in Cassino town itself and you wrote,

Polish soldiers seized [or "took" if you wish] the monastery on May 18th 1944. Therefore it can't be considered a battle won by Germans.

you get it now?

PS you also wrote,

My friends make a mod "Monte Cassino" for Close Combat IV.
There will be Polish and German soldiers only. We are looking for photos of German Fallschirmjaegers to make suitable icons.

BTW, Maori soldiers are New Zealanders ;)

Herrmannek wrote,

Ngati damn you totaly missed my point.. I agree with you on your historical remarks, i don't say he was bad commander, I agree he considered other solutions and with good will decided that bombing **** out of the place is best move basing on given data, but post factum revealed that this decision was wrong, so it is fukkup ... And hell I'm not armchair general... :D only thing we differ is qualification of his move you say it was unavoidable coincidence basing on what data he had and what other choices he don't and i say it was fukup basing on output... end of story... :D

Okay, I see your point now, but I don't agree it was a fukkup as that to me denotes incompetence and stupidity on the part of those involved.
Which would be like me saying the defence of Poland in september 1939 was a fukkup because Poland lost so quickly and throughly.
A comment like that doesn't do the participants justice and is ignorant of the decision making processes of the various commanders involved.

b.scheller
12-23-2004, 06:58 PM
Poland's defence was a f=ckup, because their allies didn't help them, they stood and watched as Poland got invaded and ass-raped from both the Germans and Soviets. Mind you, at the same time Poland's military infrastructure was ****e, mainly because of the stupidity of politicians. That believed that they shouldn't be wasting money on a military, never the less it was as much a fault of the allies as it was Poland's.

Poland did not lose technically as NO banner from any armed forces unit was taken by the Germans. And officially Poland never surrendered to the German's. The only thing remotely to a banner was a little trumpet pennet that the Germans were able to get, which Hitler was so proud to wave around. *****ing Bohemian corporal... :cantbeli:

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 07:00 PM
Defence of Poland in 1939 actualy was fukup(unavoidable but still), of course in best cavalery style we are born with but still fukkup... Such fukkups we call "Moral Victories" :)

b.scheller
12-23-2004, 07:03 PM
Defence of Poland in 1939 actualy was fukup(unavoidable but still), of course in best cavalery style we are born with but still fukkup... Such fukkups we call "Moral Victories" :)

:lol: Hubal kicked ass with his cavalry charge on a halftrack

Marmot1
12-23-2004, 07:55 PM
Defence of Poland in 1939 actualy was fukup(unavoidable but still), of course in best cavalery style we are born with but still fukkup... Such fukkups we call "Moral Victories" :)

It was ****up since our strategic situation was extremaly bad... enemy north west and south... and then also from east... so we were atacked from four sides... can you show me any army that won in such situation??? you can hold as long as you can but it is impossible to win. Not to mention that in 1939 polish army had i.e 14 diferent service rifles.(can you imagine logistic pain) and country was just 20 years earlier united after 123 years of partition... Contry where you had 3 diferent legal,tax,educational system, 2 diferent official languages in administration... and even 2 gauges of railroad tracks... it is hard to rebuild railroads in half a country, modernize your army, administration,build defence industry,build navy from nothing,build first of all harbours for that navy and for commerce and prepare to defend against enemy who has 2 times more manpower first of all,,,

I am still amazed that we were able to hold as long as france which has fully mobilized army one year for preparation, strong defences, large army, and what is most important which faced enemy from only one side...

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 08:18 PM
b.scheller wrote,

Soldiers were slaughtered there, in the act that the Allies believed that taking the Monestary would shorten the war. In the end did it really? Or would it have been better to have just went around it and saved thousands of lives, just like Ortona. I'm sorry but the allied command made some grevious errors on their part, and people knew about them and i'm sure the command even knew the possibility of total f*** up. Just look at Operation Market Garden, or Ortona. So many lives lost for sheer Allied stupidity.

Yeah, just like the Dutch at srebrenica abandoning Muslim refugees to the Serbs. Inarguably the Dutch 'command made some grevious errors on their part, and people knew about them and i'm sure the command even knew the possibility of total f*** up.' So many lives lost for sheer Dutch stupidity.....

Marmot1 wrote,

It was f*** since our strategic situation was extremaly bad... enemy north west and south... and then also from east... so we were atacked from four sides... can you show me any army that won in such situation??? you can hold as long as you can but it is impossible to win. Not to mention that in 1939 polish army had i.e 14 diferent service rifles.(can you imagine logistic pain) and country was just 20 years earlier united after 123 years of partition... Contry where you had 3 diferent legal,tax,educational system, 2 diferent official languages in administration... and even 2 gauges of railroad tracks... it is hard to rebuild railroads in half a country, modernize your army, administration,build defence industry,build navy from nothing,build first of all harbours for that navy and for commerce and prepare to defend against enemy who has 2 times more manpower first of all,,,

It wasn't a ****up, just inevitable given the situation at the time. Look at the obstacles Poland faced.


I am still amazed that we were able to hold as long as france which has fully mobilized army one year for preparation, strong defences, large army, and what is most important which faced enemy from only one side...

C'mon, you can't seriously use the french as an example. They will hardly be remembered for their martial skills in the 20th century. On the other hand their lack of.....

Catch22
12-23-2004, 09:41 PM
Uh-oh I was just affraid that Ngati is in his bad mood. He can be very unplesant "when he intends to". p-)

As for our lost campagin in 39' I'd say - compare it to polish - soviet war in 1920, which was technologically, tactically much into the previous era of warfare. We were simply unable technologically and logistically to withstand german invasion in 1939. Add that to russian backstab and our allies unwillingness to act and you get the picture.
Marmot put it right in my opinion - we had 20 years to rebuild our integrity and regain power but in the meanwhile we had one nice soviet invasion and small scale civil war in 1926. We were quite busy folk those days.

machupichu
12-23-2004, 09:56 PM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

EvanL
12-23-2004, 10:29 PM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:
Ignorant enough to forget Canadians.

Johnny_H02
12-23-2004, 11:31 PM
well today in history I believe Canadians were attacking Ortona Italy also occupied from dug in determined and highly motivated Fallschirmjagers.

EvanL
12-23-2004, 11:34 PM
well today in history I believe Canadians were attacking Ortona Italy also occupied from dug in determined and highly motivated Fallschirmjagers.
You get a cookie.

Johnny_H02
12-24-2004, 12:41 AM
*eats cookie .. thx

Had to make sure Canada got thiers today, all this talk of monte cassino when well this day 60 years ago the 1st Canadian division was slugging it out in another part of italy through christmas day.

b.scheller
12-24-2004, 02:22 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

actually they do...the Polish mob is known world wide for the most car theft exports...but you can't blame a whole population on the acts of few.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-24-2004, 03:42 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

watch over your car, wannabe German.

Just a friendly advise...

p-)

donnergott
12-24-2004, 04:51 AM
heroic polish cavalery

http://img144.exs.cx/img144/5584/dp10-39.jpg


i wonder that polish soldiers fight for their traitors.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-24-2004, 05:00 AM
:cantbeli:
Jesus, cavalry charging on German tanks, again...


German propaganda: Most known is the cavalry 'charge' on 1.September 1939 in the area of the 'passage' between Pommern and Danzig. What really happenend was that two squadrons of the 18th Polish Lancer Regiment, under instruction of Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz tried to surprise a German infantry unit (belonging to German 20th Motorised Infantry Division). By late afternoon, with a company of tankettes of the 81st Armoured Troop the 18th Lancers were holding the most northern Polish positions near Chojnice while the remainder of the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade fell back southward. The Regimental Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz had already sought permission to fall back across the Bzura River, which was in his rear to a more easily defendable and less risky position. Permission had been refused. By late afternoon Mastelarz decided he had no choice but to take some sort of active initiative on his own. Abandoning the broken down tankettes he mounted half his men giving him a force of less than two normal line squadrons. He aimed to outflank German infantry positions and take them from the rear. At about 7 P.M. the Poles came across German infantry in a forest clearing. Determined upon a surprise attack Mastelarz swept into the clearing with a mounted sabre charge that annihilated the German units. The Poles chased the German infantrymen in the gallopp, when a German armoured car unit (and possibly Panzer I), which had arrived on the scene. The German vehicles emerged around the corner (left hand side of the area being charged were some woods which took a left hand curve). Colonel Mastelarz then had two possibilities: stop the attack and turn and make flight - and being shot to pieces by the automatic cannons of the German vehicles (or tank machine guns)before getting out of shooting distance. Or head straight for the tanks and disappear between them (and thus put the Germans at risk, mutually to shoot themselves) and finallly into forest area. Mastelarz decided for the second possibility. Bystanders could take this as a cavalry charge. In truth it was a desperate, but ingenious escape attempt. The Germans were so surprised of the sight of the 'charging' cavalry that they hardly fired. Colonel Mastelarz actually succeeded in saving his units. 20 men were lost. On the next day Italian reporters visited the place of the happening, where German officers told them, on the basis the dead cavallerists, of the 'antiquated and helpless' charge. A myth was born. This report was then taken up and cannibalized by the German propaganda machinery, in order to support the alleged 'inferiority of the slawic race' (tenor: 'only mentally inferior races are so thick as a brick to attack tanks with sword and lance'). Also wanting to demonstrate a Polish military recklessness and foolishness. Far from the truth.

btw. what traitors do you mean?

roland
12-24-2004, 05:19 AM
There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.
see http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/Monte3.htm



Intervening Events
Starting the third week in March and continuing throughout the spring, the British I and the U.S. 12th Tactical Air Fleets launched "Operation Strangle," an attempt to disrupt German supply routes by bombing roads, bridges, and railways.
Allied Objectives
The British 8th Army had three objectives--(1) To break through the enemy positions in the Liri Valley in the general direction of Highway no.6 and to reach the area east of Rome, (2) To pursue the enemy in the general direction of Terni-Perugia, and (3) To advance to Ancona and Florence.
The U.S. Fifth Army had four main objectives--(1) To take the Ausonia defile and to advance on an axis parallel to that of the 8th Army, but south of the rivers Liri and Sacco, (2) To launch an attack from the Anzio beach head via Cori on Valmontone and prevent the retreat of German forces opposing 8th Army, (3) To pursue the enemy north of Rome and capture the Viterbo airfields and the port of Civitavecchia, and (4) To advance to Leghorn.
The Allies had twenty-one divisions and eleven brigades opposing fourteen German divisions and three brigades.
Day by day events
May 11:
At 11 pm, 2000 guns open fire from Aquafondata all the way to the Tyrrhenian Sea. At 11:45 pm, British troops on the Rapido advance to the attack.
May 12:
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs.
In the south, the French attack the 71st Infantry Division on the upper Garigliano. Raapke's Grenadiers fight desperately, but by 3:00 am Monte Faito is firmly controlled by the Moroccan 4th Mountain Division.
In the center, the 6th Lemberg Brigade (2nd Polish Corps) attacks the Passo Corno, but are stopped by the von Ruffin Battle Group. Further south of Monte Castillone, the 5th Vilna Brigade moves forward against Colle Santo Angelo. They reach Height 517, where they are caught by heavy machine gun fire and driven back with heavy losses. German artillery also takes a heavy toll of the attackers. By evening, General Anders is forced to withdraw the 5th Division back to its assembly areas.
The 3rd Carpathian Division of the 2nd Polish Corps attacks Albaneta and Height 593. They capture the Cavalry Mount and set up positions on the northern slopes of Height 569. The Germans respond by sending reinforcements in an attempt to recapture it. The Germans launch four counter attacks that fail, but the fifth attempt is successful and the Cavalry Mount is back in German hands by late evening.
The U.S. II Corps (in the coastal sector) gets into a furious fight at Santa Maria Infante and Sollaciano with Steinmetz's 94th Infantry Division. Both the 85th and the 88th Divisions are repulsed.
The British XIII Corps' task is to form bridgeheads between the Cassino railway station and Santo Angelo and between Santo Angelo and the Liri and then to move toward the Via Casilina in the vicinity of Piedmonte. Kirkman's troops experience great difficulties setting up the bridgehead and one brigade, the 28th, is flung back across the river. The Indian 8th Division has better luck and manages to put up two thirty-ton bridges into position.
May 13:
The Moroccans capture Monte Girofano by morning, Monte Feuci by noon, and Monte Maio by 4 pm. The northern wing of the German 71st Division is breached. The French I Division presses northward to capture Sant' Andrea, Sant' Ambrogio, and Sant' Appolinari and eventually reaches the Liri Valley. Castelforte and Damiano are now both in French hands. The Moroccans and Algerians together capture Monte Ceschito. This was the decisive blow. The Gustav Line is now punctured on the Garigliano, south of Cassino.
Elsewhere along the front, the situation is not so rosy. On the coast, the U.S. 88th Division captures Santa Maria Infante after a whole day of very slow advances against determined enemy resistance.
General Ward's British 4th Infantry Division launches a fresh attack south of Cassino. This time the attack succeeds in extending a bridgehead to within a mile northwest of Santo Angelo.
The Poles continue to suffer heavy losses attacking the Cavalry Mount. The Germans also suffer casualties, as illustrated by the comments made in Major Veth's diary, "Great number of dead on the slopes--stench--no water--no sleep--amputations being carried out at battle headquarters."
May 14:
After penetrating through the German 71st Division's positions, General Juin decides to push the Moroccan mountain warfare experts through the Auruncian Mountains towards the Itri-Pico road twelve miles behind the Gustav Line. After the fall of Monte Ceschito, General Guillaume's men advance towards Petrella. By nightfall of the 14/15, the French Goumiers are clambering up Monte Fammera, north of Spigno.
During the night of May 14/15, the German 94th Infantry Division is forced to withdraw to a position on either side of Castelonorato. The French troops have torn wide gaps in this sector of the German defense lines.
The Poles under General Anders continue to engage in heavy fighting around the Cavalry Mount.
The 94th Fusiliers push the U.S. 88th Division out of Santa Maria Infante and capture an entire American battalion. The Americans counter attack later in the evening and reoccupy this place once more.
The German Tenth Army decides to throw all its available reserves into the battle. The 305th Infantry Division is brought back from the Adriatic to bolster the crumbling Bode Battle Group. Two battalions of the 114th Rifle Division and grenadiers, pioneers, and anti-tank units from various divisions arrive to plug up the holes in the defensive lines.
German artillery continues to concentrate its fire on the bridges over the Rapido, but as soon as a battery opens fire, a swarm of Allied fighter-bombers quickly bombs it.
May 15:
The British 78th Division reaches the Pignataro-Cassino road. The Indians attack and capture Pignataro during the night. While the Indian 8th Division advances quickly, the British 4th Division on the right wing can only move forward with great difficulty. Further to the west, the British make little headway towards the Via Casilina. In Cassino town itself, the British make no ground at all, despite the fact that the German 1st Parachute Machine gun Battalion is completely destroyed.
The right wing of the LI Mountain Corps begins to crumble as a result of the French attacks. General Alexander orders the Canadian I Corps under General Burns to cover General Kirkman's left flank. The Canadian objective is Pontecorvo.
As a result of French successes elsewhere, General Steinmetz's 94th Infantry Division has to fight desperately to hold Formia against the American 88th Division.
May 16:
General Guillaume's troops capture Monte Petrella and Monte Rivole.
May 17:
The Moroccans capture Serra de Lago, Monte ******o, and Monte Calvo and reach the all important German XIV Corps' line of communications--the Itri-Pico road. After the capture of Monte Maio, Dody's troops capture Castelnuovo and the Moroccans and Algerians together capture Ausonia. East of Esperia, however, the Algerians are held up by the counter attacking 200th Panzer Grenadier regiment. The Grenadiers are too weak to stop the advance and the Algerians capture Esperia, while the French I Division captures Monte d' Oro.
General Senger arrives back from leave to find that his XIV Corps has been decisively beaten. The 71st and 94th Divisions are destroyed and the 15th Panzer Grenadiers Division is very hard pressed and the U.S. 5th Army is approaching the Senger Barrier. General Senger throws in the last of his reserves in a desperate attempt to stop the French Corps. The British 78th Division captures Piumarola and, to the north, the 4th Division reaches the Via Casilina, thus choking off a vital artery leading to the Cassino front.
On the coast, the American 85th Division drives the battered remnants of Steinmetz's 94th Infantry Division away from Formia. Meanwhile, the U.S. 88th Division is moving through the mountains towards Itri.
The Poles stage another bloody attack on the monastery. The Kressowa Division manages to penetrate some of the defences on Colle Santo Angelo, but are thrown back by German counter attacks. For ten hours the battle rages and, in desperation, General Anders throws in the last of his reserves--a weak battalion made up of drivers, mechanics, and clerical personnel.
The Carpathian Division's objective is the Masa Albaneta and the Cavalry Mount, but again they are stymied on Height 593. the Polish gains are slow, despite assistance from the 2nd Armoured Brigade, which manages to destroy most of No.3 Company of the 3rd Parachute Regiment. At the end of the day, the Colle Santo Angelo and the Cavalry Mount remain in German hands.
To prevent encirclement and a possible rout, the German Tenth Army Headquarters orders the paratroops on Monte Cassino to withdraw from their positions. On the night of May 17/18, the remaining men of the 3rd Parachute Regiment begin to withdraw through the mountains, while the men of the 2nd Battalion, 4th Parachute Regiment (those who had defended Cassino town) are forced to climb over the slopes of Monte Cassino and head north of the Via Casilina in the direction of Piedmonte. During the entire battle, the paratroops had never been directly defeated.
May 18:
The 12th Podolski Regiment advances quickly into the ruins without firing a shot. The only Germans left are a few wounded, who were unable to walk over the mountains back to their lines. By 10:20 am, the Poles hoist their national flag over the ruins of the monastery.
May 19:
The Americans occupy Monte Grande, to the west of the Itri-Pico road.
After the fall of San Olivia, the French reach the southern outskirts of Pico and Guillaume's Moroccans capture Campodimale on the Itri-Pico road.
Map Source: Bohmler, Rudolf "Monte Cassino: A German View" Cassell and Co. Ltd, 1964, Page 246. Note that the above map does not follow the sequence outlined in the preceding text because, in the German view, the first battle was only a preliminary to the Battle of Monte Cassino. Remember, the Allies viewed the battle as consisting of four phases, while the Germans viewed it as consisting of only three. All maps will be numbered according to the German viewpoint.

Results
The fourth Battle of Monte Cassino resulted in an Allied victory, but only because the Allies decided to overwhelm the Germans through sheer weight of numbers. Simultaneously, the Germans had weakened their positions prior to the battle by withdrawing some troops to France.
The breakthrough at Cassino meant that the Allies were able (within a week's time) to join up with the Anzio beach head and then to capture Rome.
Casualties
The U.S. 5th Army lost 107,144 men between January 15 and June 4. The British XIII Corps lost 4,056 and the Polish 2nd Corps lost 3,779, for a grand total of 118,979 dead, wounded, or missing.
Concluding Comments
The Algerians and Moroccans of the French Expeditionary Corps were the troops most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino.
The German paratroops (169K Jpeg) defending the monastery were never truly defeated, instead they were forced to withdraw because of the general situation confronting the Tenth Army.
While it is true that the men of the 2nd Polish Corps occupied the monastery after the paratroops had left, nonetheless the Poles are credited as being the first Allied troops to reach the top. The Polish flag flying over the ruins on May 18 is clear evidence of which nationality reached the top first.

Heinzi
12-24-2004, 05:29 AM
I can recommend this book about MC

Cassino, the hollow victory by John Ellis

With many charts, maps and an complete order of battle.
ISBN 1854109162

plodey
12-24-2004, 05:51 AM
I bought this book when I was in NZ. Cassino: New Zealand Soldiers in the Battle for Italy by Tony Williams (Penguin Books, 2002)

a few scans (the book is a fantastic read).

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino1.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino2.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino3.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino4.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino5.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino6.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino7.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino8.jpg

RIP my kiwi brothers.

plodey
12-24-2004, 06:15 AM
My friends make a mod "Monte Cassino" for Close Combat IV.
There will be Polish and German soldiers only. We are looking for photos of German Fallschirmjaegers to make suitable icons.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/cassino9.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/cassino10.jpg

from Storming Eagles: German Airborne Forces in World War II - James Lucas (Cassell Military Paperbacks).

Musashi
12-24-2004, 06:30 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

Musashi
12-24-2004, 06:35 AM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:
Ignorant enough to forget Canadians.
Sorry, I didn't know about Canadians :oops:
Now I'll remember :)

plodey
12-24-2004, 06:43 AM
and you forgot the Indians on your list ;)

1/2 Gurkhas
1/6 Rajputana Rifles
1/9th Gurkhas
4th Indian Division
4/16 Punjabis
4/6 Rajputana Rifles
5 Brigade
7 Indian Brigade
8 Indian Division
Indian Pioneers Corp


oh and I think the Morrocans were there (2nd Moroccans).

donnergott
12-24-2004, 06:49 AM
use google picture search. there are a lots of pictures about german paratroopers. the books by osprey are also very good. look at emule or other p2p programes. there are pdf-versions of these books.

what traitors i mean ?

england and french for example.
nobody can tell me that they doesn´t know, what would happen, when they visit germany for conferece in munich.

perdurabo
12-24-2004, 06:54 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

actually they do...the Polish mob is known world wide for the most car theft exports...but you can't blame a whole population on the acts of few.
few months ago our police cought car thiefs gang with germans and french and some duch in it in Szczecin our police was amused because they where stealing cars in Poland to send them to France and Germany rofl rofl rofl

roland
12-24-2004, 07:25 AM
oh and I think the Morrocans were there (2nd Moroccans).
:cantbeli:

from the link I've already gave: http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/Monte3.htm

Order of Battle--Allies

British 8th Army
British X Corps
British XIII Corps
British 4th Infantry Division
British 78th Infantry Division
Indian 8th Infantry Division
British 6th Armoured Division
(British I Guards Brigade and Canadian I Brigade)
Polish 2nd Corps
3rd Carpathian Division
5th Kressowa Division

Reserves--(1) Canadian I Corps and (2) South African 6th Armoured Division)

Allied 15th Army Group
American 5th Army

French Expeditionary Corps: General Juin
French I Infantry Division
Moroccan 2nd Infantry Division
Algerian 3rd Infantry Division
Moroccan 4th Mountain Division
(Three Tabors, Goumiers, and one armoured brigade)

U.S. II Corps
U.S. 88th Division
U.S. 85th Division
Reserves--U.S. 36th Division

And by the way:

Order of Battle--German

LI Mountain Corps
5th Mountain Division
44th Infantry Division
(Hoch und Deutschmeister)
1st Parachute Division
Bode Battle Group
XIV Panzer Corps
71st Infantry Division
94th Infantry Division
15th Panzer Grenadier Division
(Corps Reserve)

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-24-2004, 10:44 PM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....

Marmot1
12-25-2004, 05:56 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

How advanced is this mod? any website?

Zorro C9
12-25-2004, 06:40 AM
The Kiwis here would have been there, but for you lads overseas, get to the Army Museum if you ever come over. They have a terrain model of the Abby and it's surrounding buildings+ the township. Once you see that, you realise how ****ing difficult it was. No cover, limited routes.

Respect.

Musashi
12-25-2004, 06:49 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

How advanced is this mod? any website?
In Polish. Building English WWW site is underway.
http://jagdtiger.mm.pl/forum/viewforum.php?f=55

Olybrius
12-25-2004, 08:21 AM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....



Concluding Comments
The Algerians and Moroccans of the French Expeditionary Corps were the troops most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino.

Zorro C9
12-25-2004, 08:56 AM
Oh will you lot stop e wanking over it?

perdurabo
12-25-2004, 09:16 AM
our fathers did great team job so can we not argue about it?

Cpt Willard
12-25-2004, 11:51 AM
After battle allied had chance to cut off german forces and the real f**k up was Clark's decision to go straight to Rome. :bash:

roland
12-26-2004, 06:27 PM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....

I agree with that 100%





.....
hey aren't you suggesting I've said the contrary ? comon the French Expeditionary Corps was almost all equipped and supplied by Uncle Sam ! (eternal greeting for that and other things Uncle Sam ;) )
So ok, I do NOT qualify for your moron club there.
.. as you do NOT qualify for my moron club either as nobody in this thread, I'm pleased to notice :)

Well there is an other category of morons, it's those who say you're ungratefull or wanker when you just try to correct historic fact as they are presented. French and British would understand what I mean when we try to correct the Americans when they speak of WWI and even WWII.
But here, I'm sorry, but the "official" Anglo / American presentation of the fourth battle of Monte Cassino is obviously unfair for the French and it's not "wanking" to say that.
Her it is, found on Wikipedia but you can find it all over the web. Compare it with the most accurate version I've given and you can have an idea of what is "biased history"


The so-called Fourth Battle of Monte Cassino was fought by the 2nd Polish Corps under General Wladyslaw Anders (May 11-May 19). The first assault (May 11-May 12) brought heavy losses but also allowed the British 8th Army under General Sir Oliver Leese to break through German lines in the Liri river valley below the monastery.

The second assault (May 17-May 19), carried out at immense cost by the Polish troops with the aid of a force under French fatigues of Morroccan hill tribesmen used for mountain warfare, pushed the German 1st Parachute Division out of its positions on the hills surrounding the monastery and almost surrounded them. In the early morning of May 18 a reconnaissance group of Polish 12th Podolian Uhlans Regiment occupied the ruins of the monastry after it was evacuated by the Germans.

The capture of Monte Cassino allowed the British and American divisions to begin the advance on Rome, which fell on June 4, 1944 just two days before the Normandy invasion.

I've noted this one: "French fatigues of Morroccan hill tribesmen " :cantbeli: :roll:

FDF_Hemppis
12-26-2004, 08:18 PM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

Marmot1
12-26-2004, 10:46 PM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

I was always sure that in this war Finns fought on Finnish side (with little germn aid) I never personally counted Finns as part of axis and probably neither Alies did. Since I didn't hear about any Alied actions against Finns...

Hakkapeliitta
12-27-2004, 10:56 AM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

I was always sure that in this war Finns fought on Finnish side (with little germn aid) I never personally counted Finns as part of axis and probably neither Alies did. Since I didn't hear about any Alied actions against Finns...

Britain declared war on us in 1941. Stalin wanted it as a proof that Britain was on the same side with them.

Damn Britain! :fork:

Hullebullen
12-27-2004, 11:34 AM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

Of course they are heroes (the Finns, I mean)!

sheroo
12-27-2004, 11:48 AM
This is a great website to read about the the Role of the Indian Army in Italy
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS/library/Tiger/triumphsTC.html

for monte cassino specifically click here
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS/library/Tiger/triumphs02.html#section2


THE STORY OF THREE GREAT DIVISIONS IN ITALY

PUBLISHED BY
HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE
FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
1946
I HAVE HAD THE DISTINCTION OF HAVING UNDER MY COMMAND A TRIO OF GREAT INDIAN DIVISIONS---THE FOURTH, EIGHTH AND TENTH ---WHOSE FIGHTING RECORD IN ITALY IS A SPLENDID ONE.

"The achievements in combat of these Indian soldiers are noteworthy. They have carried on successfully in grim and bloody fighting against a tenacious enemy helped by terrain particularly favourable for defence. No obstacle has succeeded in delaying these Indian troops for long or in lowering their high morale or fighting spirit.

"They are well led, these Three Divisions. Each of the Divisional Commanders at one time commanded a battalion of an Indian Infantry Regiment in combat. These Divisional Commanders came up the hard way.

"Your 'Jawan' and 'Tommy Atkins' and 'Jock' and other soldiers of this international 15th Army Group have established firm bonds of friendship and respect born in action against a tough enemy. The bravery of Indian troops is attested by the Battle Honours and Decorations awarded.

"The Fourth, Eighth and Tenth Indian Divisions will forever be associated with the fighting for Cassino, the capture of Rome, the Arno Valley, the liberation of Florence and the breaking of the Gothic Line.

"I salute the brave soldiers of these Three Great Indian Divisions."

FEBRUARY 27TH, 1945.
FIFTEENTH ARMY GROUP, ITALY.

aeternum
12-27-2004, 12:13 PM
few months ago our police cought car thiefs gang with germans and french and some duch in it in Szczecin our police was amused because they where stealing cars in Poland to send them to France and Germany rofl rofl rofl

Just to steal them "back"...

kenshiroIT
12-28-2004, 08:11 AM
know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.

and Italians volunteers ;)

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 08:44 AM
Why were Indians fighting for a country who had colonized their land? :|

sheroo
12-28-2004, 10:40 AM
Why were Indians fighting for a country who had colonized their land? :|

:lol:
That question always brings a smile to my face
For an answer to that u will have to read the history of India from the 1700s
In Brief when the brits came to India they were a land of 100+ little kindoms. and u also have to consider the entire land mass i.e pakistan, India Banladesh and sri lanka known as ceylon at that time. by the time of the 1st world war the entire region was controlled by the english as well (directly or indirectly)............................

if you are more interested I can give u some good links for starters try "Freedom at Midnight" by dominique lapierre and larry collins. Even though it is about the final days of the british rule or the RAj as it was known it does have a good historical background in it.

machupichu
12-28-2004, 11:29 AM
sheroo what is your point? you think the indians "owe" the brits so they went to war for them?

sheroo
12-28-2004, 12:27 PM
sheroo what is your point? you think the indians "owe" the brits so they went to war for them?

Nope :bash: :bash:

just giving a starters.
But I must admit I did forget to add something important. Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler. I believe in the early part of the war there was a deal struck b/w the Indian National Congress and the British for complete Independence in exchange for Indian support during the war. A deal which many believed the british never meant to keep but due to the economics of the post war era they did have to keep.

oldsoak
12-28-2004, 01:03 PM
The Indian soldier who fought alongside the allies was definitely a brave and tough soldier and they deserve a lot more recognition of the part they played in WWII than they got by the British or Indian governments.

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:08 PM
It seems that some Indians didn't think this way:

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/7366/indien2.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/5834/mnzs_5991_15.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/8940/mnzs_6605_2.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/4820/picture35.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/8843/picture36.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/859/picture37.jpg

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:13 PM
Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler.

Btw, a Gandhi's quote about the black people when he was still in South Afrika:


The raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and *****ness.

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:39 PM
After the battle:

http://img59.exs.cx/img59/944/EUR-4-2-1944.jpg

sheroo
12-28-2004, 01:40 PM
Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler.

Btw, a Gandhi's quote about the black people when he was still in South Afrika:


The raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and *****ness.

Interesting!! where did you get the quote from. Gandhi did have a directness to him. But a thing to be noted

When he had gone to south africa as a "barrister" or lawyer he considered himself a refined englishman. It was only after he was at the receiving end of racial seggregation did his views change. He is higly regarded for his work after that and not before.

Some of views were also not favorably taken by many Indians specially when he insisted that the newly formed Indian govt release half of all federal assests to help create pakistan (even though he was against the creation of Pak in the first place)

sheroo
12-28-2004, 01:44 PM
It seems that some Indians didn't think this way:

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/7366/indien2.jpg



Most of these guys were POWs and were promised Independent India etc. But I believe they were never trusted completely by the german army to actually deploy them for combat

Millen
12-28-2004, 01:49 PM
that also the version that i hear about these man

wholagun
12-28-2004, 02:01 PM
i once knew a Polish veteran of Monte Cassino, however he died last night. One tell he was telling me how the Americans flew in and airdroped American Brandy. The Poles drank the Brandy and then took the objective. From that point on the only purchased American Brandy. It was a great moral buster he said, and he remained loyal to to the end as a result.

donnergott
12-28-2004, 03:19 PM
they had to be drunken to fight against the "grüne teufel" ?
the french foreighn legioneers were drunken too, when they fought against general dietls " blumenteufel" at narvik.

mack pl
12-28-2004, 03:40 PM
they had to be drunken to fight against the "grüne teufel" ?
the french foreighn legioneers were drunken too, when they fought against general dietls " blumenteufel" at narvik.

well, Poles fought at Narvik too ;) ....and some Germans and Austrians in FFL ;) But I dont know anything about alcohol level in theirs blood...:lol:


anyway, this thread rocks:

Pole-"Yeahhh, we won, we rulezzz"
Kiwi-"You are moron, you couldnt win without us"
German-"**** you biatches, you didnt defeat us, we rock"
etc etc

p-)

fantassin
12-28-2004, 04:28 PM
That's the good thing about the Waffen SS, there is a skeleton in most of europeans and a few other countries cupboard thanks to them...

from: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

Arab Nations

Deutsche-Arabische Bataillon Nr 845

Deutsche-Arabische Lehr Abteilung

Albania

21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg (albanische Nr. 1)

Belorussia - See Soviet Union


Belgium

27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Langemarck (flämische Nr. 1)

28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Wallonien

SS-Freiwilligen Legion Flandern

SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest

SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck

6. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck

5. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Wallonien

SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Flandern

SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien

Wallonisches-Infanterie Bataillon 373
*
Bulgaria

Waffen-Grenadier Regiment der SS (bulgarisches Nr 1)

Croatia

17. Air Force Company

369. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

373. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

392. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

Croatian Air Force Legion

Croatian Air Force Training Wing

Croatian Anti-Aircraft Legions

Croatian Legion

Croatian Naval Legion

13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr. 1)

23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Kama (kroatische Nr. 2)

Denmark

Danish volunteers in Waffen-SS

Freikorps Danmark (Frikorps Danmark)

Estonia

Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

3. Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

Estnische SS-Legion

20. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr. 1)


Finland

Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS

France

Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment

Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade

Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF)

Légion Tricolore - See Légion des Volontaires Français

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr.1)

33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1)


Great Britain

Britisches Freikorps*(British Free Corps)


Hungary

22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Maria Theresa

1. Ungarische-SS-Schi-Bataillon

1. Ungarische SS-Sturmjäger Regiment

25. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hunyadi (ungarische Nr. 1)

26. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)

33. Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarnische Nr. 3)

Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 25

Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 26

India

Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS

Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische) (Legion Freies Indien)


Ireland

Irish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Italy

Italienische-Freiwilligen-Legion

Karstwehr-Bataillon

Karstwehr-Kompanie

1. Sturm-Brigade Italienische Freiwilligen-Legion

Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger)Brigade der SS

24. Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger-)Division der SS

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (italienische Nr. 1)

29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr. 1)

Latvia

Lettische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

2. Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Brigade

Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Legion

15. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr. 1)

19. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettisches Nr. 2)

Netherlands

Landstorm Nederland - See SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland

SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Brigade Landstorm Nederland

SS-Freiwilligen-Legion Niederlande

SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland

4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland

34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1)

SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest

SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Niederlande

SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland

Norway

Freiwilligen Legion Norwegen (Den Norske Legion)

SS-Schijäger Bataillon Norwegen (Skijegerbataljon Norge)

Romania

Romanian volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 1)

Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 2)

Russia - See Soviet Union

Serbia and Montenegro

Polizei-Selbstschutz-Regiment Sandschak

Serbisches Freilligen Korps der SS

Spain

Esquadron Azul

250. Infanterie-Division (División Azul)

Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101

Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 102

Soviet Union

Armenische Legion

Azerbajdzansche Legion

Böhler-Brigade

Freiwilligen-Stamm-Division

Georgische Legion

162. (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division

600. (Russische) Infanterie-Division

650. (Russische) Infanterie-Division

Kalmücken-Kavallerie-Korps - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kalmücken-Legion - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kaminski Brigade - See RONA

Kaukasischer Waffen-Verband der SS

Nordkaukasische Legion

Osttürkischen Waffen-Verbände der SS

Russkaya Ovsoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armija (RONA)

Sonderverband Bergmann

Tataren-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS

Turkestanische Legion

Waffen-Gebirgs-Brigade der SS (tatarische Nr. 1)

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (weißruthenische Nr. 1)

14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr. 1)

29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 1)

30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weissruthenische Nr. 1)

Waffen-Sturm-Brigade Kaminski - See RONA

Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA*- See RONA

Wolgatatarische Legion

Sweden

Swedish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Ukraine - See Soviet Union

White Russia - See Soviet Union

USA

US volunteers in the Waffen-SS


and probably a few others too.....

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-28-2004, 08:43 PM
mack pl wrote,

Kiwi-"You are moron, you couldnt win without us"

*sigh*

Next time i'll use crayons, then you might get it.

duck
12-28-2004, 11:17 PM
they had to be drunken to fight against the "grüne teufel" ?
the french foreighn legioneers were drunken too, when they fought against general dietls " blumenteufel" at narvik.

Well, you must know that the German Army and the Waffen-SS were pioneers in the dosage of Pervitin (Amphetamin/"Speed") to their troops. Many of the "Gruene Teufel" must have been hallucinating drug addicts by that time. p-) But no wonder in a military where several leaders were addicted to a variety of substances ranging from Cocaine (Goering, Goebbels) to Ophiates (The moustached corporal).

"Kraft durch Drogen" ;)

mack pl
12-29-2004, 03:47 AM
mack pl wrote,

Kiwi-"You are moron, you couldnt win without us"

*sigh*

Next time i'll use crayons, then you might get it.

yeah, whatever :roll:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-29-2004, 03:08 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.

fantassin
12-29-2004, 03:38 PM
Quoting from General Mark Clark's autobiography, he describes how the FEC (French Expeditionary Corps) broke through the GUSTAV Line in May of 1944.


*** "Meantime, the French forces had crossed the Garigliano (River) and moved forward into the mountainous terrain lying south of the Liri River.* It was not easy.* As always, the German veterans reacted strongly and there was bitter fighting. The French surprised the enemy and quickly seized key terrain including Mounts Faito Cerasola and high ground near Castelforte.* The 1st Motorized Division helped the 2nd Moroccan division take key Mount Girofano and then advanced rapidly north to S. Apollinare and S. Ambrogio.* In spite of the stiffening enemy resistance, the 2nd Moroccan Division penetrated the Gustave Line in less than two day’s fighting.
**** "The next 48 hours on the French front were decisive.* The knife-wielding Goumiers swarmed over the hills, particularly at night, and General Juin’s entire force showed an aggressiveness hour after hour that the Germans could not withstand.* Cerasola, San Giogrio, Mt. D’Oro, Ausonia and Esperia were seized in one of the most brilliant and daring advances of the war in Italy, and by May 16 the French Expeditionary Corps had thrust forward some ten miles on their left flank to Mount Revole, with the remainder of their front slanting back somewhat to keep contact with the British 8th Army.
*** "For this performance, which was to be a key to the success of the entire drive on Rome, I shall always be a grateful admirer of General Juin and his magnificent FEC."
(and a little further)
*** "The 8th Army’s delay made Juin’s task more difficult, because he was moving forward so rapidly that his right flank---adjacent to the British---constantly was exposed to counter-attacks".

mack pl
12-29-2004, 05:46 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.

I love New Zealanders, really :D Respect for your participation in WW II, really :D


Im drunk, but Im honest dude... :P

edit
:oops: :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-29-2004, 06:49 PM
I don't think much of Clark. The man was an incompetent publicity whore.

But lets hear what the French themselves have to say about it.

On the 23rd Clark had asked General Alphonse Juin, the commander of the Free French who were on the right flank of the 43rd Division, to forestall their wheeling attack towards the village of Atina about thirteen kilometres directly to the north of Monte Cassino, and attack instead the Belvedere/Abate Massif several kilometres further to the south to pin back the German reserves that might be used against the Americans.
Juin considered it 'a mission which in other circumstances, I would have deemed impossible. It was not at all to my taste, involving as it did an attempt to outflank the enemy at close range rather than on a much wider arc of manoeuvre'

Juin,A La Campagne d'Italie, G. Victor, Paris, 1962, pp. 62-3.

Juin assigned the task of taking the Belvedere/Abate Massif to one of his Algerian Divisions. Its commander, General Joseph de Monsabert, was even more expressive of his disbeleif of the plan:

Storm Belvedere? who's dreamed up that one?Have they looked at it? You'd have to first cross two river the Rapido and the Secco, then smash through the Gustav line in the valley, and finally, all the time attacking the Bosche, climb more than 2000 feet over a bare rock pile, itself heavily fortified, that can be fired on from....Cifalco and the rest of the summits round that. It's pure wishful thinking! A crazy gamble, mon general

Chambe, R., Le Bataillon de Bevedere, Editions J'ai Lu, Paris, 1965, p 25.

Despite the strategic insanity of the situation, the French sgreed because they wanted to demonstrate their loyalty to the allies. Juins final remark to his officer was, 'it is a matter of honour".


Mack pl wrote,

Im drunk, but Im honest dude... :P

;)

roland
12-30-2004, 08:38 AM
I don't think much of Clark. The man was an incompetent publicity whore.

But lets hear what the French themselves have to say about it.

On the 23rd Clark had asked General Alphonse Juin, the commander of the Free French who were on the right flank of the 43rd Division, to forestall their wheeling attack towards the village of Atina about thirteen kilometres directly to the north of Monte Cassino, and attack instead the Belvedere/Abate Massif several kilometres further to the south to pin back the German reserves that might be used against the Americans.
Juin considered it 'a mission which in other circumstances, I would have deemed impossible. It was not at all to my taste, involving as it did an attempt to outflank the enemy at close range rather than on a much wider arc of manoeuvre'

Juin,A La Campagne d'Italie, G. Victor, Paris, 1962, pp. 62-3.

Juin assigned the task of taking the Belvedere/Abate Massif to one of his Algerian Divisions. Its commander, General Joseph de Monsabert, was even more expressive of his disbeleif of the plan:

Storm Belvedere? who's dreamed up that one?Have they looked at it? You'd have to first cross two river the Rapido and the Secco, then smash through the Gustav line in the valley, and finally, all the time attacking the Bosche, climb more than 2000 feet over a bare rock pile, itself heavily fortified, that can be fired on from....Cifalco and the rest of the summits round that. It's pure wishful thinking! A crazy gamble, mon general

Chambe, R., Le Bataillon de Bevedere, Editions J'ai Lu, Paris, 1965, p 25.

Despite the strategic insanity of the situation, the French sgreed because they wanted to demonstrate their loyalty to the allies. Juins final remark to his officer was, 'it is a matter of honour".


You know what you are talking about mate. Congrats.
But the "battle of Belvedere" was at the 2nd battle of Cassino. The real victory happened at the 4th battle.
Despite the mission was almost a suicide mission, they did it and punctured the Gustave line for the first time. Unfortunately the success wasn't exploited because of high command insanity :(
see http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/Monte1.htm

But the high loss weren't in vain as as the British and American high command started to consider this army at it's real value: one of the best army ever as they proved in the Provence disembarquement later, when they took M****ille, Toulon, marched to north at rocket speed and took almost 1/3 of Germany. A miracle considering how low we were 3 years before..

regards

machupichu
12-30-2004, 09:07 AM
the British and American high command started to consider this army at it's real value: one of the best army ever as they proved in the Provence disembarquement later, when they took M****ille, Toulon, marched to north at rocket speed and took almost 1/3 of Germany.
yeah.... they are the best of the best. they "took" 1/3 of germany and moved with lightning speed. im sure they would have defeated germany all alone.
interesting: those superhero stories only seem to appear when the enemy is already out of commission. what about '42? :lol:

roland
12-30-2004, 09:21 AM
yeah.... they are the best of the best.

you're exagerating. very good for sure.



they "took" 1/3 of germany

almost 1/3. I'll post some links if you want. tomorow.



and moved with lightning speed.

I've said "rocket" speed. That's an expression that means "very fast". That's the way they've gone up the Rhone valley while the Americans were marching at there right on the montain in the Napoleon road.



im sure they would have defeated germany all alone. :lol:
As I've already said they ware almost all equipped and supplied by uncle Sam. The planes were English and American too. I've never denied this was a team work. For Germany, at the end of the war, the French army was more than one million soldier.

Free French Forces September 1944: 560 000 soldiers
Free French Forces end 1944: 1 million soldiers
Free French Forces May 1945: 1 250 000 soldiers
(Total allied on the west front: 5 millions)

Sorry if I'm entousiast but that's just fact and I've never lowered the other allies role.

regards

roland
12-30-2004, 09:32 AM
what about '42? :lol: wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?

Musashi
12-30-2004, 12:33 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.
Kiwi, tell me what you mean exactly or send me a PM if you wish. But don't bash me much on my birthday :) ;)

machupichu
12-30-2004, 02:29 PM
what about '42? wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?
the problem with those seemingly exceptional and heroic performances of allied forces is that they only appear/increase exponentially after germanys capabilities were already consumed. several pack of wolves killing one injured lion is nothing to be TOO proud of, in my opinion.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 02:50 PM
Musashi wrote,

Kiwi, tell me what you mean exactly or send me a PM if you wish. But don't bash me much on my birthday

I was paying you a compliment. If I was bashing you you'd realise it, even taking the language barrier into account p-)

Happy birthday.

roland wrote,

But the "battle of Belvedere" was at the 2nd battle of Cassino. The real victory happened at the 4th battle.

Yes but the courage shown during that battle should still be remembered.

At 0700 on th 25th the French 9th company launched a spectacular attack on Point 470 to seal the Secco valley against counter attack. They managed to gain the position in the first crazy rush, until the Germans counter-attacked and drove them backwards. But the French commander captain Deneeordered a bayonet attack with the battle sry, 'this time men, we'll make it this time! Nobody stops for the wounded Forward charge!' Forward they went.
Denee was hit in the chest: his radio operator was also hit. Denee crawled across and started working the set; speaking in a gurgling whisper he said: Denee here...i'm wounded...about to take the objective...i'm handing over command to Lieutenant el Hadi...terribly difficult...don't worry, the 9th will make it...to the bitter end.
El Hadi now led the charge to the summit of those men- half the company-who were still on their feet. The second crazy charge made the summit. But they were driven off again. Again they took it, again the Germans conter-attacked and took it back. But with incredible persistence the French rallied. The gallant el Hadi stood holding his useless arm behind him (his whole forearm had been removed by a shell burst). Uncaring of that, el Hadiled his men upwards again. Just as he reached the summit he was hit in the chest by machine-gun fire. He shouted at the man beside him to fire the victory flare. As it shot into the sky, the courageous el Hadi dragged himself to his feet and shouted 'Vive la France'. Then he dropped dead.
So Juin's wish had been fufilled. There was no doubt that in executing an insane plan, the Frenchmen had indeed acted with immense courage and honour.

machupichu wrote,

yeah.... they are the best of the best. they "took" 1/3 of germany and moved with lightning speed. im sure they would have defeated germany all alone.
interesting: those superhero stories only seem to appear when the enemy is already out of commission. what about '42?

What country are you from?

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 02:56 PM
what about '42? wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?
the problem with those seemingly exceptional and heroic performances of allied forces is that they only appear/increase exponentially after germanys capabilities were already consumed. several pack of wolves killing one injured lion is nothing to be TOO proud of, in my opinion.

1. What about the Battle of Britain? Moscow? Stalingrad? El-Alamein? Battle of the Atlantic?
2. IIRC Germany started the WWII, attacking the Allies. So don't be so sorry for your "lion" :petting:

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 02:58 PM
What country are you from?

He's a wannabe German ;)

machupichu
12-30-2004, 03:22 PM
1. What about the Battle of Britain? Moscow? Stalingrad? El-Alamein? Battle of the Atlantic?
2. IIRC Germany started the WWII, attacking the Allies. So don't be so sorry for your "lion"
what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 04:05 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.

Freibier
12-30-2004, 04:07 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

Hullebullen
12-30-2004, 04:21 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.

Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

What? You up to something right now? Dibs on being Quisling here in Sweden if so...

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 04:23 PM
what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?

The Battle of Britain was finished long before the Barbarossa, and preparations for another seroius invasion operation would probably take more tha a year, so the question of German occupation of the Britain is more than arguable.
If Germany didn't attacked Soviet Union, what would be their target instead? Conquering the rest of Europe? Middle East?
It's impossible to say that Germany would won the WWII if they didn't attacked the SU, because we can only guess what the sides of the conflict would do in that case.


the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.

Most of them yes, but not all. El- Alamein battle was won only by the British 8th Army.
The point is that the Werhrmacht wasn't undefeatable, even during it's best years. Exapmle- Battle of Britain. Luftwaffe vs. RAF, both in full strenght, no other fronts or battles to distract the German forces. And they lost.
So you can't say that the Allied victories took place only then the German army was weak and distracted.


i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world.

From the military point of view- yes
From the moral- no.
Army had a lot of chances to get rid of Hitler and his team, but instead they chose to fight for his regime. That definitely isn't worth praising.

Musashi
12-30-2004, 04:28 PM
germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.
Because the other countries allowed Germany to rise from the ashes. What if they had not had such a whim? Did you think about it? I afraid, you did not. If you are not so stupid as I consider you, perharps you'll understand it SOMEDAY.
Remember, the number of whims that everybody has is always limited :)

roland
12-30-2004, 05:49 PM
Exapmle- Battle of Britain. Luftwaffe vs. RAF, both in full strenght, no other fronts or battles to distract the German forces. And they lost.

bad example: the Luftwaffe was exhausted after the battle of France:

Marshall Kesselring wrote:

"The uninterrupted battle of our air force beginning on May 13th had literally spent the personnel and the material. After three weeks of combat, the air force units had fallen to 50 and even 30% below their theoretical effectiveness."

Those airplanes shot down during the French campaign would be greatly missed by the Luftwaffe when Hitler decided to attack England, and it would be wrong to minimize the impact that the battle of France had on the battle of Britain which was to occur shortly thereafter.

also see http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1985/sep-oct/kirkland.html


On 10 May 1940, the operational units of the French Air Force committed to the Western Front were heavily outnumbered. The low rate of operations in the French Air Force compared to that of the Germans increased by a factor of four the French inferiority in the air during the first month of the battle. By mid-June, however, the Luftwaffe was exhausted. It had lost 40 percent of its aircraft. Its flyers had been operating above hostile territory without navigational aids and with the certainty of capture in the event their aircraft were disabled. The air and ground crews were working from captured fields at the end of lengthening supply lines. The French, on the other hand, had conducted much less intensive flight operations, were able to recover the crews of disabled aircraft, were falling back on their logistical bases, and were bringing new units on line with brand new aircraft every day. By 15 June, the French and German air forces were at approximate parity with about 2400 aircraft each, but the French were operating from their own turf, and they had the support of the RAF. Mastery of the air was there for the seizing, but on 17 June the French air staff began to order its units to fly to North Africa.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 06:35 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

'All that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing'-Edmund Burke.

It doesn't take the whole world to defeat you, its just that the majority of the world's countries felt a moral obligation to fight your tyranny and evil.

Your always coming back because your slow to learn. :roll:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 06:41 PM
The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
what a surprise that the combined world forces can defeat germany. you must be very intelligent to recognize this! :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 07:37 PM
The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
what a surprise that the combined world forces can defeat germany. you must be very intelligent to recognize this! :lol:

What a surprise to see someone who doesn't understand, even with access to the wealth of factual information on the internet, that the Third Reich was beaten not by the rest of the world but by its own incompetence and ineptitude. The end result was inevitable, the combined world forces just helped it along that much faster.
You don't have to be very intelligent to recognize this.... :roll:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 07:44 PM
yes, who knows what made hitler attack russia so soon......
that was a very big mistake indeed.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 07:51 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.

machupichu
12-30-2004, 08:15 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.
murdering and pillaging.... you dont know what youre talking about little african boy. :roll:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 08:26 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?


little african boy.

rofl

You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 08:45 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?
You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?
"murdering and pillaging" does not equal holocaust.
the "Deutchland uber alles" hymn does have a different semantic as well.


your indignant reply to my "african boy" term makes me think you are ashamed of your roots. very very sad that is. :oops:

duck
12-30-2004, 08:59 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?


little african boy.

rofl

You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?

He is a very confused wannabe German. Don't make him feel to good by bolstering his illusions. ;)

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 09:04 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.

Pillage; To plunder.

Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.


your indignant reply to my "african boy" term makes me think you are ashamed of your roots. very very sad that is. :oops:

I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?

Absolutely tragic that is, in a pathetic kind of way. :oops:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 09:18 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.
Pillage; To plunder.
Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.
that is a nice definition. maybe you should use those standards on allied forces too then we will have more holocausts to celebrate! :woot:


I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?
the indignation expresses in your imputation i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority.

roland
12-30-2004, 09:44 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.
murdering and pillaging.... you dont know what youre talking about little african boy. :roll:
murdering and pillaging: that's very accurate. african boy know what he is talking about here. You have a better definition of the Nazis ? Genocidaire regime is better ?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 10:21 PM
as i already said, if you complain about "murdering and pillaging" german army, you must keep those standards for the allies as well. and i doubt you would ever consider the Great Americans beeing "murdering and pillaging" warmongers. uhm..... wait a sec........ rofl

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 10:40 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.
Pillage; To plunder.
Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.
that is a nice definition. maybe you should use those standards on allied forces too then we will have more holocausts to celebrate! :woot:


I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?
the indignation expresses in your imputation i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority.

So you believe the Holocaust should be celebrated then?

And you believe the Allies are as culpable for WW2 as the Germans are?

Interesting. You obviously suffer from some serious delusions.

How sad.

In a pathetic kind of way....

BTW your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;

the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority

I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.

machupichu
12-30-2004, 10:56 PM
your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;
the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority
I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.
seems you didnt get the sense at all, but thats not my fault - all words are used correctly. :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 11:22 PM
your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;
the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority
I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.
seems you didnt get the sense at all, but thats not my fault - all words are used correctly. :lol:

Oh, I see know. What you mean't to write was;

the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses(itself) in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) (that) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority

So it seems you didn't use the words correctly. But there's always potential for that when the ignorant begin to suffer from delusions of grandeur. :lol:

Anyway I've shown neither anger nor blame for your attempted ascription of me as an 'little african boy'. Why would I when your attribution is plainly based upon ignorance...

And you still haven't answered any of my questions;

'What country do you come from?'

'What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent?'

'So you believe the Holocaust should be celebrated then?'

'And you believe the Allies are as culpable for WW2 as the Germans are?'

Is it that you don't want to answer them, or that you can't?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 11:44 PM
i see you finally got the sense out of that sentence. :P

should the holocaust be celebrated? it already gets celebrated. so called holocaust industry is a significant part of it.

allies as culpable as axis? provoking results in responsibility, most law systems know that principle, so the answer is yes

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-31-2004, 12:39 AM
machupichu wrote,

i see you finally got the sense out of that sentence. :P

Yes, too bad you couldn't write it properly in the first place. :roll:


should the holocaust be celebrated? it already gets celebrated. so called holocaust industry is a significant part of it.

I think you're confusing celebration with commemoration. Which is understandable, considering we wouldn't want the same horrific crimes perpetrated again.


allies as culpable as axis? provoking results in responsibility, most law systems know that principle, so the answer is yes

Ah, poor attempt to spread the blame and responsibility but i'm afraid it rests firmly with Germany whose aggression, after all, started it. Really rather sad to question the actions of country's who were forced to defend themselves or their neighbours, ahead of those crimes committed by Hitlers lackeys

From the Wehrmacht alone;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Wehrmacht
Sonderbeauftragter des OKW 078, 208, 287
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Kopaigorod 800
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Tschudnow 445

Heer
- 7.Panzerdivision 481
- 78.Infanteriedivision 520
- 82.Armeekorps 492
- 133.Division 338
- 404.Infanteriedivision 408
- 407.Infanteriedivision 109
- Artillerieregiment 128 174
- Artillerieregiment 336 430
- Einheit Herold 178, 253
- Einsatzbataillon des Kampfkommandanten Kassel 195
- Eisenbahnpionierkompanie 622
- Ersatzbataillon 87 044
- Ersatzdivision 466 285
- Feldgendarmerie 280.Infanteriedivision 190
- Feldgendarmerie Feldkommandantur 810 715
- Feldgendarmerie Leinfelden 136
- Festungsbaustoffkolonne 007
- Flakartillerie-Schulen Braunschweig 168, 263
- Flakbatterie 4/625 248
- Gefangenenkompanie 157
- Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 507 809
- Genesenden-Ersatz-Bataillon Feldherrnhalle 004, 015
- Grenadierregiment Kreta 288
- Heeresgruppe G (Oberbefehlshaber) 060
- Heeresgruppe Mitte (Oberbefehlshaber) 452
- Heeresstandortverwaltung
Düren 027
Lüdenscheid 027
- Heeresstreife Düsseldorf 026, 112, 216
- Infanterieregiment 8 618
- Infanterieregiment 691 398, 429
- Infanterieregiment 727 565
- Jägerregiment 28 665
- Kampfgruppe Düsseldorf-Mitte 125
- Kampfkommandant
Brückenkopf Oppenheim-Nierstein 170, 371
Ingelheim 020, 169, 344
Kassel 198, 317
Lohr 105
Marktheidenfeld 085
Paderborn 364
Schwäbisch Gmünd 038
- Kommandanturstab der Auffanglinie IV 210
- Kommandoführer eines Häftlingszuges 197
- Kraftfahrpark Mannheim 203
- Kraftfahrzeuginstandsetzungskompanie 174 265
- Landesschützenbataillon 343
- Landesschützenbataillon 783 683
- Landesschützenbataillon Diez 133
- Nachrichtenregiment 598 459
- Offiziersreserve Regensburg 726
- Ortskommandant Hechtsheim 070
- Ortskommandant Paulusbrunn 305
- Panzergrenadierregiment 29 914
- Panzergrenadierregiment 156 568
- Panzerjagdeinheit des Generalkommandos XI.AK 077
- Panzerkampfgruppe XIII 083
- Panzernachrichtenregiment 4 574
- Sanitätskompanie 1560 028
- Standortältester Ochsenfurt 255
- Turk-Völkische Führerschule 536
- Wehrmachtsstreifendienst Berlin 035
- Werferregiment 22 078, 208, 287, 426
- Einheit unbekannt 052, 108, 952

Luftwaffe
- 6.Fluganwärterkompanie 639
- 36.Volksgrenadierdivision 348
- Abwicklungskommando eines Luftgaues 058
- Fliegerhorst
Borstel 087
Elbing 306
- Gruppenkommandeur eines Nachtjagdgeschwaders 242
- Inspekteur des ostvölkischen Personals der Luftwaffe Lehrstab (Flieg) 548
- Kampfkommandant Ansbach 010, 029
- Kommandant einer Fallschirmjägereinheit 280
- Kriegsberichtereinheit 210
- Lufttransportführer 3 Kampffliegergeschwader 4 008, 031/1
- Verbandsführerschule in Katterbach 472

Marine
- Blockadebrecher 'Rio Grande' 623
- Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 013
- Fahnenflüchtiger 012
- Marine-Schützen-Rgt.112 410
- Marineattaché Botschaft Tokio 623

* * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

WEHRMACHT
Abwehr 1101
Einheit unbekannt 1758

Wehrmacht - Heer
8.Jägerdivision 1310
141.Baubtl. 1081
339.Infanteriedivision 1072
923.Rgt. Strafbtl.12 2072

Artillerie-Einheit 1303
Artillerieregiment 328 1105
Artillerieregiment II/94 1314

Baubtl.257 1155
Bewährungsbtl.500 1108
Btl. Nachtigall 1087
Div. Brandenburg 1148
Einheit Bergmann 1087

Feldgendarmerie 1103, 1112, 1187, 1406, 1484
Feldgendarmerie Abt.221 2068
Feldgendarmerie Abt.5/41 2071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 88 1071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 415 1028, 1033, 1040

Festungsbtl. 1228

Flakeinheit 802 1113

Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 570 1018
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 580 1019, 1022, 1034
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 721 1025

I.Panzerjagdkompanie Schwalbe 1342

Inf.Ersatz- und Ausbildungsbtl.71 1243
Inf.Rgt.2 2066
Inf.Rgt.89 1130
Inf.Rgt.172 1140
Inf.Rgt.185 13.Komp. 1177
Inf.Rgt.202 1123
Inf.Rgt.385 1454
Infanterieeinheit 1299

Kampfgruppe Ludwig in Zschaiten 1707
Kfz.-Instandsetzungskomp. 1122

Landesschützenbtl. 1146, 1247
Landesschützenbtl. Zwickau 1366
Landesschützenbtl.397 1456
Landesschützenbtl.650 1112
Landesschützenbtl.821 1093

Nebelwerferrgt.52 1069
Reservelazarett III in Krakau 1689
Sicherungsbtl.335 1088
Stabskompanie Wallmeisterschule in Sternberg/Neumark 1409
Strafbtl.999 1085, 1277, 1375, 1575
Einheit unbekannt 1110, 1114, 1126, 1134, 1143, 1192, 1232, 1456, 1497, 1582, 1631, 1639, 1755, 2055

Wehrmacht - Luftwaffe
Fallschirmjägerkompanie 1751
Feldgendarmerie der 2.Luftwaffenfelddivision 1021
Flakeinheit 1185
Panzergrenadierdivision Hermann Göring 1255
Einheit unbekannt 1186, 1226, 1234, 1349

Wehrmacht - Marine
Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 1211
Hafenschutzbatterie in Korsör 1667
Kristiansand 1490
Oslo 1543
Sonderabteilung Hela 1244, 1251
Sonderabteilung Stralsund 1251

And lets not forget the Waffen SS;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Reiter-SS
- 20.SS-Reiterstandarte 511, 579
- SS-Kavallerieregiment 2 570
- SS-Reitersturm 2/20 511, 579

Waffen-SS
- 1.SS-Inf.Brig.(mot) 793, 877
- 10.SS-Inf.Rgt. 806
- 11.SS-Infanterieregiment 247
- 13.SS-Armee-Korps 421, 461, 494
- 17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division 'Götz von Berlichingen' 466
- Ausbildungslager Trawniki 833
- Bataillon 'Götz von Berlichingen' 111
- Division 'Das Reich' 649
- Division 'Götz von Berlichingen' 243, 315
- Division 'Hitler-Jugend' 428
- Division zur Vergeltung 2 458, 486, 508
- Ersatz- und Ausbildungsbataillon 5 'Götz von Berlichingen' 201, 251
- Führungsstab Bauvorhaben Happurg 223
- Genesenden-Bataillon in Langenau 513
- Jagdverband 599
- Jagdverband Süd 062
- Kampfgruppe Trummler 437
- Kampfschule Martinsthal/Rheingau 413
- Kavallerieregiment 2 682
- Kommando Mühldorf 241
- Korps Gille 342
- Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler 491, 685
- Nachschubkommandantur Russland-Mitte 830
- Panzergrenadierausbildungs- und Ersatzbtl.III 860
- Propagandastandarte 'Kurt Eggers' 424
- Remonteamt Rejowiec 782
- Schule Hohenwang 559
- Sonderinspektion III in Happurg 223
- Truppenübungsplatz Debica 802
- Truppenwirtschaftslagers Krakau 249
- Versorgungsamt Braunschweig 177


* * * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

Waffen-SS 20.SS-Grenadierdivision 1079
Waffen-SS Ausbildungsersatzbtl.2 2030
Waffen-SS Gruppe Godesberg 1438
Waffen-SS in Magdeburg 1755
Waffen-SS Lublin 1452
Waffen-SS SS-Bewährungsbtl. Dirlewanger 1381
Waffen-SS SS-Division Florian Geyer 1083
Waffen-SS SS-Division Prinz Eugen 1619
Waffen-SS SS-Panzergrenadierdiv. Nibelungen 1156
Waffen-SS SS-Panzergrenadierrgt.4 'Der Führer' 1009
Waffen-SS SS-Totenkopfdivision 1078, 1198
Waffen-SS Einheit unbekannt 1531, 1583

Or the SS and Police units;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Einsatzkommandos und Sonderkommandos
EG A 843
EK Stapo und SD Tilsit 465, 509
EK1b 512, 526
EK2 686, 760, 820, 883
EK3 512
EK3a 192
EK5 560, 636, 693
EK6 606, 714
EK8 512, 519, 564, 567, 573, 624, 656, 702, 720, 727, 750
EK9 540, 627, 630, 666
EK10a 777, 791, 864
EK10b 769
EK11a 724
EK11b 807
EK12a 816
EK12b 816
EK13 583
EK16 628
SK4a 694, 703, 765, 805
SK4b 784
SK7a 588, 620, 643
SK 1005 551, 552, 601, 662
SK 1005A 701
SK 1005B 701
Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann in Budapest 716
Sonderkommando H. in Cannes 578

Polizei
Litauische Polizei Krottingen 465, 499
Polizeidirektion Memel 465
Polizeidirektion Würzburg 318
Polizeioberfeldarzt SS-Oberabschnitt Main 179
Polizeipräsident Duisburg 474
Polizeipräsident Nürnberg-Fürth 140, 179, 283, 363

Bahnschutzpolizei
Rzeszow 886

Gendarmerie
Arnum 067
Bad Neustadt 291
Biala Podlaska 804
Dolina 887
Gorlice 566
Hasselfelde 382
Herringen 296
Kasimierz 582
Kowel 638
Losice 868
Lubraniec 633
Mielau 755
Orsoy 311
Piaski 333
Podhajce 832
Schöneck 475
Sdolbunow 553, 592
Slonim 810
Srebnoje 871
Tarnogrod 844, 845
Tomaszow-Mazowiecki 908
Tyszowce 575
Ustinowka 915
Vilsbiburg 182
Warschau 875
Wieliczka 905
Wolbrom 797

Gestapo
(siehe auch Grenzpolizei, Sicherheitspolizei)
Norwegen 739
Allenstein 626
Augsburg 114
Berlin 754
Bielefeld 543
Bochum 400, 419, 438, 460
Brauweiler 189, 728
Danzig 319, 443
Darmstadt 611, 613
Dortmund 126, 312, 313, 314, 401
Dünaburg 266
Düsseldorf 142, 148
Effeld 259
Erkelenz 299, 326
Frankfurt/M. 207, 267
Giessen 261, 304
Hagen 323, 324, 406, 425
Hamburg 147
Heide 160
Hildesheim 303, 359
Innsbruck 442
Jesenice 891
Karlsruhe 309
Koblenz 538
Köln 189, 334, 362/1, 403
Lemberg 544
Lodz 557, 892
Lublin 790
Lützen-Lettgallen 266
München 404
Nürnberg-Fürth 083, 104, 140, 283
Offenbach 367
Oslo 808
Padua 771
Recklinghausen 257
Regensburg 418
Reval 266
Siegen 235
Stuttgart 059, 116, 245, 388, 615
Tilsit 444, 465, 485, 509, 521, 547
Warschau 586
Würzburg 138, 283, 291

Grenzpolizei
Dalheim 301
Delfzijl 859
Eydtkau 521, 547
Friedrichshafen 116, 423
Gorlice 688
Heydekrug 511, 554, 579
Hrubieszow 674
Jaslo 687, 780
Kolleschen 511
Krosno 796
Neu-Sandez 635
Niebüll/Südtondern 200
Przemysl 699, 867, 872
Sanok 799
Wlodawa 582

Hilfspolizei
Ingelheim 020
Leck 199
Lettische Hilfspolizei Riga ('Kommando Arajs') 856

Kreispolizei
Siwaschi 910
Lettische Kreispolizei Rositten 890

Kriminalpolizei
Berlin 126
Bottrop 256
Dortmund 124
Kassel 202
Minsk 298
Mülheim 353
Nürnberg-Fürth 140
Ostrowiec 292
Schweinfurt 412, 416/1
Tomaszow 514

Landwacht
Augustfehn 476
Jaroslawiec 672
Stiege 382

Ordnungspolizei
Warschau 875

Politische Polizei
Danzig 319
Dortmund 126
Köln 189
Nürnberg-Fürth 104

Polizeibataillone und -regimenter
Pol.Btl.13 760
Pol.Btl.21 789
Pol.Btl.61 396
Pol.Btl.91 558, 785
Pol.Btl.306 589, 787
Pol.Btl.307 764
Pol.Btl.309 664, 792, 840
Pol.Btl.314 663, 878
Pol.Btl.316 678
Pol.Btl.322 555
Pol.Res.Btl.11 546
Pol.Res.Komp.Köln 767
Pol.Rgt.15 776, 842
Pol.Rgt.17 898
Pol.Rgt.26 828
Pol.Rgt.IV ('Warschau') 558
Pol.Rgt.Süd (Nachrichtenabteilung 2) 838, 879
Res.Pol.Btl.45 759, 823
Res.Pol.Btl.69 730, 741
Res.Pol.Btl.101 (Pol.Rgt.25) 670, 770, 772

Reichssicherheitshauptamt
Amt VI 453
Berater für Judenangelegenheiten in Bukarest 876
Falschgeldunternehmen 'Bernhard' 854
Kriminaltechnisches Institut 542, 658
Referat IID3A 632
Referat IVA1 260
Referat IVb4 745, 753, 771
Schutzhaftreferat 707
Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann in Budapest 716
Sonderkommando H. in Cannes 578

Schutzpolizei
Ansbach 010, 029
Bielsk 718
Düsseldorf 125
Frankfurt/M. 194, 258
Graz 524
Grodsjanka 644
Iserlohn 131
Kassel 055, 132, 195, 229, 293
Kielce 706, 757
Mannheim 063
Memel 465, 499
Oberursel 106
Ostrowiec 433, 783
Ottmachau 489, 522
Roswaschew 861
Schwäbisch Gmünd 038
Siegburg 349
Stanislau 395
Stryj 395
Tschenstochau 477, 600, 621, 631, 668, 815
Zamosc 790

SD
Bad Rabka (SD-Schule) 689
Czortkow 440
Libau 760
Lublin 790
Opatow 848
Pinsk 787
Tilsit 465

Sicherheitspolizei
Frankreich 858
Italien 771
Niederlande 563, 645
Serbien 362
Aachen 110
Baranowicze 617
Belgrad 679, 700
Berditschew 490
Bialystok 487, 648
Bilgoray 846, 847
Brüssel 870
Budapest 716
Chalons-sur-Marne 904
Cholm 691
Czortkow 515, 541, 550, 597
Drohobycz 531
Dünaburg 708
Düsseldorf 385
Frankfurt/Oder 758
Freiburg/Brsg 402
Grodno 684
Hancewicze 617
Kassel 308
Kiel 677
Kielce 706, 865
Kiew 526, 560
Köln 732
Kolomea 657, 743
Krakau 667
Krakau 850
Lemberg 671
Lublin 826
Mielec 655
Minsk 552, 601
Radom 786
Radzyn 737
Riga 307, 843
Rzeszow 711, 749
Sokal 159
Stanislau 675, 788
Starachowice 768
Szczawnica 593
Tarnopol 634
Tarnow 710, 775, 814
Tomaszow 781
Uman 526, 560
Warschau 795, 821, 822
Wiesbaden 378
Wilejka 851
Wilna 192
Zakopane 593
Zamosc 790
Zawiercie 894
Zichenau-Schröttersburg 834, 836

(Höherer) SS- und Polizeiführer
HSSPF West in Düsseldorf 173, 325, 369, 389
Kampfgruppe Dietrich des HSSPF Russland Mitte 604, 644
SSPF Krakau 619, 762, 911
SSPF Lemberg 355
SSPF Lublin 812
SSPF Minsk 512
SSPF Warschau 875

Selbstschutz
Bezirk Fordon 681
Hörnersfeld 895
Konitz 237
Kreis Alexandrowo 539
Kreis Konitz 590
Kreis Tuchel 590
Kreis Warlubien 602
Kreis Zempelburg 590, 803
Lublin 899
Schmiedeberg 562
Schöneck 475
Thorn 709
Vandsburg 569
Wellendorf 581

Zollgrenzschutz
Moos 089
Skala 723

* * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

EINSATZKOMMANDOS
EKI/1 1043
EKII 1328
EK4b 1037, 1082
EK8 1044, 1049
EK10a 1024
EK12 1023

POLIZEI
siehe auch Wehrmacht - Heer: Feldgendarmerie und Geheime Feldpolizei

Ausländische Polizei
Lettische Sicherheitshilfspolizei Riga 1015
Rigaer Ordnungsdienst 1015

Deutsche Polizei
Polizei in Eisleben 1403
Polizei in Ermsleben 1344
Polizei in Gittersee 1641
Polizei in Gorenice 1127
Polizei in Lodz 2063
Polizei in Magdeburg 1296
Polizei in Oebisfelde 1304
Polizei in Olkusz 1127
Polizei in Polleben 1568
Polizei in Siegmar-Schönau 1603

16.mot. Polizeiabteilung 2050
2. Königsberger Pol.Rgt. 1092

Bahnpolizei Halle 2007
Bahnpolizei Warschau 1507

Feuerschutzpolizei Magdeburg 1481

Gendarmerie Altranstädt 2064
Gendarmerie Arnsdorf 2071
Gendarmerie Bad Wilsnack 1264
Gendarmerie Cranzahl 1595
Gendarmerie Einsatzkommando 'Stalino' 1136
Gendarmerie Falkenhof 1106
Gendarmerie Förderstedt 1128
Gendarmerie Frankfurt/Oder 1368
Gendarmerie Frohburg 1470
Gendarmerie Galizien (Ort unbekannt) 1224
Gendarmerie Gallwiese 1106
Gendarmerie Girbigsdorf 1525
Gendarmerie Gruszczyce 1058
Gendarmerie Kreis Forst 1172
Gendarmerie Langewiesen 1286
Gendarmerie Malkinia 1076
Gendarmerie Melzow 1164
Gendarmerie Mertendorf 1542
Gendarmerie Neusalza-Spremberg 1260
Gendarmerie Nowy Dwor 1058
Gendarmerie Przemyslany 1224
Gendarmerie Rakow 1702
Gendarmerie Rengersdorf 2022
Gendarmerie Schönberg 1479
Gendarmerie Schönfeld 1474
Gendarmerie Semmenstedt 1107
Gendarmerie Steinbach 1421
Gendarmerie Sucholowa 1058
Gendarmerie Tschechien 2058
Gendarmeriebtl. (mot.) 1 1041
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 7 1041
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 16 1016
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 62 1041
Gendarmerie (Einheit unbekannt) 2056

Gestapo Belgrad 1163
Gestapo Beneschau 1042
Gestapo Breslau 1008, 1254
Gestapo Chrudim (Sonderkommando) 1042
Gestapo Dresden 1003, 1839, 2079
Gestapo Drohobycz 1039
Gestapo Frankfurt/Main 1328
Gestapo Kolin 1042
Gestapo Krakau 2079
Gestapo Lissa 1075
Gestapo Magdeburg 2013
Gestapo Mielec 1051
Gestapo Niedersachswerfen 1562
Gestapo Pardubice 2014
Gestapo Paris 2013
Gestapo Pionki (Dolmetscher) 2088
Gestapo Plauen 1512
Gestapo Potsdam 1163
Gestapo Prag 1100
Gestapo Rzeszow 1051
Gestapo Stalowa Wola 1051
Gestapo Stanislau 1026, 1031, 1039
Gestapo Stettin 1090
Gestapo Suhl 1208
Gestapo Thorn 1090
Gestapo Weimar 1323, 1337
Gestapo Zichenau-Schröttersburg 1014
Gestapo Zwickau 1512

Grenzpolizei Blachstädt 1043
Grenzpolizei Platerow 1035, 1038
Grenzpolizei Przemysl 1043
Grenzpolizei Siedlce 1035, 1038

Hilfspolizei Annaberg 1625
Hilfspolizei Döblitz 1778
Hilfspolizei Dresden 1220
Hilfspolizei Freyburg 1486
Hilfspolizei Grossbrüchter 1091
Hilfspolizei Güsten 1367
Hilfspolizei Janowiec 1053
Hilfspolizei Klein- und Grosswerther 1614
Hilfspolizei Lowitsch 2054
Hilfspolizei Osterwieck 1563
Hilfspolizei Prettin 1115
Hilfspolizei Preussisch Börnecke 1766
Hilfspolizei Reinhardtsgrimma 1370
Hilfspolizei Ummendorf 1441

Kripo Berlin 1354, 1646
Kripo Dresden 2018, 2079
Kripo Meissen 2075

Landwacht Ermsleben 1344
Landwacht Görsdorf 1433
Landwacht Gresse 1496
Landwacht Hesserode 1614
Landwacht Knippelsdorf 1147
Landwacht Melzow 1164
Landwacht Polleben 1568
Landwacht Schiass 1694
Landwacht Solpke 1802
Landwacht Teichdorf 1125
Landwacht Zinow 1202

Ortspolizei Hettstedt 1281
Ortspolizei Neustadt an der Dosse 1714

Pionierzug 2029

Pol.Btl. 1149
Pol.Btl. 2018
Pol.Btl. Berlin-Spandau 1379
Pol.Btl. in Mährisch Ostrau 1153
Pol.Btl.9 2031
Pol.Btl.22 1132
Pol.Btl.41 1004, 1005
Pol.Btl.44 1074
Pol.Btl.93 1536
Pol.Btl.304 1002, 1012, 1017, 1020, 1029
Pol.Btl.310 1006, 1007
Pol.Res.Wachbtl. Lodz 2074
Pol.Rgt.15 1006, 1007, 1036
Pol.Rgt.36 2060
Pol.Rgt.88 1534
Polizei-Einsatz-Reservekompanie Halle 1173

Res.Pol.Btl. 1136
Res.Pol.Btl.41 1005
Res.Pol.Btl.82 1013
Res.Pol.Btl.Kolin 1009, 1045

Reichssicherheitshauptamt 1163

Schupo 1135
Schupo Dresden 1839
Schupo Lodz 1159
Schupo Schwedt 1063
Schupo Warschau 2028
Schupo Wurzen 1084

SD Hohensalza 1032
SD Posen 1032
SD Rennes 1235
SD Einheit unbekannt 1101

Sipo Krakau 1043
Sipo Libau 1046
Sipo ****omir 1090
Sipo Warschau 1049

SS-Pol.Rgt.2 1065
SS-Pol.Rgt.22 1005

Einheit unbekannt 2026

SELBSTSCHUTZ
Janowiec 1053
Klamry-Dolky 1062
Kulmisch Damerau 1047
Lomianki 1124
Ostrow Swiecki 1054
Radzyn-Wies 1048
Rehwalde 1121

The JuNSV website lists West German war crimes trials by the defendants' unit or agency in German at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

and in English [partial translations only] at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstengfr.htm

The East German war crimes trials are organized the same way. They may be found at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm





Take a suck at those with your law systems pal.....

Oh, and you still haven't answered my questions, how predictable.

Musashi
12-31-2004, 04:45 AM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.
you dont know what youre talking about little african boy. :roll:
If you were intelligent you would have known his name is Maori. [Check where Maoris live, because I am COMPLETELY sure you don't know it].
I told you several times you are stupid, so don't make your situation worse.
I see you are a full of **** racist. I wonder why has not you been banned, yet.
You make other Germans a bad opinion on this forum. Every representative give the others general imagination of his nation. I see you are still too stupid to understand it. I regret, because the other representatives of your nation are far more intelligent than you are and understand it.

machupichu
12-31-2004, 07:55 AM
machupichu wrote,

i see you finally got the sense out of that sentence. :P

Yes, too bad you couldn't write it properly in the first place. :roll:


should the holocaust be celebrated? it already gets celebrated. so called holocaust industry is a significant part of it.

I think you're confusing celebration with commemoration. Which is understandable, considering we wouldn't want the same horrific crimes perpetrated again.


allies as culpable as axis? provoking results in responsibility, most law systems know that principle, so the answer is yes

Ah, poor attempt to spread the blame and responsibility but i'm afraid it rests firmly with Germany whose aggression, after all, started it. Really rather sad to question the actions of country's who were forced to defend themselves or their neighbours, ahead of those crimes committed by Hitlers lackeys

From the Wehrmacht alone;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Wehrmacht
Sonderbeauftragter des OKW 078, 208, 287
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Kopaigorod 800
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Tschudnow 445

Heer
- 7.Panzerdivision 481
- 78.Infanteriedivision 520
- 82.Armeekorps 492
- 133.Division 338
- 404.Infanteriedivision 408
- 407.Infanteriedivision 109
- Artillerieregiment 128 174
- Artillerieregiment 336 430
- Einheit Herold 178, 253
- Einsatzbataillon des Kampfkommandanten Kassel 195
- Eisenbahnpionierkompanie 622
- Ersatzbataillon 87 044
- Ersatzdivision 466 285
- Feldgendarmerie 280.Infanteriedivision 190
- Feldgendarmerie Feldkommandantur 810 715
- Feldgendarmerie Leinfelden 136
- Festungsbaustoffkolonne 007
- Flakartillerie-Schulen Braunschweig 168, 263
- Flakbatterie 4/625 248
- Gefangenenkompanie 157
- Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 507 809
- Genesenden-Ersatz-Bataillon Feldherrnhalle 004, 015
- Grenadierregiment Kreta 288
- Heeresgruppe G (Oberbefehlshaber) 060
- Heeresgruppe Mitte (Oberbefehlshaber) 452
- Heeresstandortverwaltung
Düren 027
Lüdenscheid 027
- Heeresstreife Düsseldorf 026, 112, 216
- Infanterieregiment 8 618
- Infanterieregiment 691 398, 429
- Infanterieregiment 727 565
- Jägerregiment 28 665
- Kampfgruppe Düsseldorf-Mitte 125
- Kampfkommandant
Brückenkopf Oppenheim-Nierstein 170, 371
Ingelheim 020, 169, 344
Kassel 198, 317
Lohr 105
Marktheidenfeld 085
Paderborn 364
Schwäbisch Gmünd 038
- Kommandanturstab der Auffanglinie IV 210
- Kommandoführer eines Häftlingszuges 197
- Kraftfahrpark Mannheim 203
- Kraftfahrzeuginstandsetzungskompanie 174 265
- Landesschützenbataillon 343
- Landesschützenbataillon 783 683
- Landesschützenbataillon Diez 133
- Nachrichtenregiment 598 459
- Offiziersreserve Regensburg 726
- Ortskommandant Hechtsheim 070
- Ortskommandant Paulusbrunn 305
- Panzergrenadierregiment 29 914
- Panzergrenadierregiment 156 568
- Panzerjagdeinheit des Generalkommandos XI.AK 077
- Panzerkampfgruppe XIII 083
- Panzernachrichtenregiment 4 574
- Sanitätskompanie 1560 028
- Standortältester Ochsenfurt 255
- Turk-Völkische Führerschule 536
- Wehrmachtsstreifendienst Berlin 035
- Werferregiment 22 078, 208, 287, 426
- Einheit unbekannt 052, 108, 952

Luftwaffe
- 6.Fluganwärterkompanie 639
- 36.Volksgrenadierdivision 348
- Abwicklungskommando eines Luftgaues 058
- Fliegerhorst
Borstel 087
Elbing 306
- Gruppenkommandeur eines Nachtjagdgeschwaders 242
- Inspekteur des ostvölkischen Personals der Luftwaffe Lehrstab (Flieg) 548
- Kampfkommandant Ansbach 010, 029
- Kommandant einer Fallschirmjägereinheit 280
- Kriegsberichtereinheit 210
- Lufttransportführer 3 Kampffliegergeschwader 4 008, 031/1
- Verbandsführerschule in Katterbach 472

Marine
- Blockadebrecher 'Rio Grande' 623
- Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 013
- Fahnenflüchtiger 012
- Marine-Schützen-Rgt.112 410
- Marineattaché Botschaft Tokio 623

* * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

WEHRMACHT
Abwehr 1101
Einheit unbekannt 1758

Wehrmacht - Heer
8.Jägerdivision 1310
141.Baubtl. 1081
339.Infanteriedivision 1072
923.Rgt. Strafbtl.12 2072

Artillerie-Einheit 1303
Artillerieregiment 328 1105
Artillerieregiment II/94 1314

Baubtl.257 1155

Bewährungsbtl.500 1108
Btl. Nachtigall 1087
Div. Brandenburg 1148
Einheit Bergmann 1087

Feldgendarmerie 1103, 1112, 1187, 1406, 1484
Feldgendarmerie Abt.221 2068
Feldgendarmerie Abt.5/41 2071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 88 1071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 415 1028, 1033, 1040

Festungsbtl. 1228

Flakeinheit 802 1113

Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 570 1018
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 580 1019, 1022, 1034
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 721 1025

I.Panzerjagdkompanie Schwalbe 1342

Inf.Ersatz- und Ausbildungsbtl.71 1243
Inf.Rgt.2 2066
Inf.Rgt.89 1130
Inf.Rgt.172 1140
Inf.Rgt.185 13.Komp. 1177
Inf.Rgt.202 1123
Inf.Rgt.385 1454
Infanterieeinheit 1299

Kampfgruppe Ludwig in Zschaiten 1707
Kfz.-Instandsetzungskomp. 1122

Landesschützenbtl. 1146, 1247
Landesschützenbtl. Zwickau 1366
Landesschützenbtl.397 1456
Landesschützenbtl.650 1112
Landesschützenbtl.821 1093

Nebelwerferrgt.52 1069
Reservelazarett III in Krakau 1689
Sicherungsbtl.335 1088
Stabskompanie Wallmeisterschule in Sternberg/Neumark 1409
Strafbtl.999 1085, 1277, 1375, 1575
Einheit unbekannt 1110, 1114, 1126, 1134, 1143, 1192, 1232, 1456, 1497, 1582, 1631, 1639, 1755, 2055

Wehrmacht - Luftwaffe
Fallschirmjägerkompanie 1751
Feldgendarmerie der 2.Luftwaffenfelddivision 1021
Flakeinheit 1185
Panzergrenadierdivision Hermann Göring 1255
Einheit unbekannt 1186, 1226, 1234, 1349

Wehrmacht - Marine
Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 1211
Hafenschutzbatterie in Korsör 1667
Kristiansand 1490
Oslo 1543
Sonderabteilung Hela 1244, 1251
Sonderabteilung Stralsund 1251

And lets not forget the Waffen SS;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Reiter-SS
- 20.SS-Reiterstandarte 511, 579
- SS-Kavallerieregiment 2 570
- SS-Reitersturm 2/20 511, 579

Waffen-SS
- 1.SS-Inf.Brig.(mot) 793, 877
- 10.SS-Inf.Rgt. 806
- 11.SS-Infanterieregiment 247
- 13.SS-Armee-Korps 421, 461, 494
- 17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division 'Götz von Berlichingen' 466
- Ausbildungslager Trawniki 833
- Bataillon 'Götz von Berlichingen' 111
- Division 'Das Reich' 649
- Division 'Götz von Berlichingen' 243, 315
- Division 'Hitler-Jugend' 428
- Division zur Vergeltung 2 458, 486, 508
- Ersatz- und Ausbildungsbataillon 5 'Götz von Berlichingen' 201, 251
- Führungsstab Bauvorhaben Happurg 223
- Genesenden-Bataillon in Langenau 513
- Jagdverband 599
- Jagdverband Süd 062
- Kampfgruppe Trummler 437
- Kampfschule Martinsthal/Rheingau 413
- Kavallerieregiment 2 682
- Kommando Mühldorf 241
- Korps Gille 342
- Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler 491, 685
- Nachschubkommandantur Russland-Mitte 830
- Panzergrenadierausbildungs- und Ersatzbtl.III 860
- Propagandastandarte 'Kurt Eggers' 424
- Remonteamt Rejowiec 782
- Schule Hohenwang 559
- Sonderinspektion III in Happurg 223
- Truppenübungsplatz Debica 802
- Truppenwirtschaftslagers Krakau 249
- Versorgungsamt Braunschweig 177


* * * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

Waffen-SS 20.SS-Grenadierdivision 1079
Waffen-SS Ausbildungsersatzbtl.2 2030
Waffen-SS Gruppe Godesberg 1438
Waffen-SS in Magdeburg 1755
Waffen-SS Lublin 1452
Waffen-SS SS-Bewährungsbtl. Dirlewanger 1381
Waffen-SS SS-Division Florian Geyer 1083
Waffen-SS SS-Division Prinz Eugen 1619
Waffen-SS SS-Panzergrenadierdiv. Nibelungen 1156
Waffen-SS SS-Panzergrenadierrgt.4 'Der Führer' 1009
Waffen-SS SS-Totenkopfdivision 1078, 1198
Waffen-SS Einheit unbekannt 1531, 1583

Or the SS and Police units;

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Einsatzkommandos und Sonderkommandos
EG A 843
EK Stapo und SD Tilsit 465, 509
EK1b 512, 526
EK2 686, 760, 820, 883
EK3 512
EK3a 192
EK5 560, 636, 693
EK6 606, 714
EK8 512, 519, 564, 567, 573, 624, 656, 702, 720, 727, 750
EK9 540, 627, 630, 666
EK10a 777, 791, 864
EK10b 769
EK11a 724
EK11b 807
EK12a 816
EK12b 816
EK13 583
EK16 628
SK4a 694, 703, 765, 805
SK4b 784
SK7a 588, 620, 643
SK 1005 551, 552, 601, 662
SK 1005A 701
SK 1005B 701
Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann in Budapest 716
Sonderkommando H. in Cannes 578

Polizei
Litauische Polizei Krottingen 465, 499
Polizeidirektion Memel 465
Polizeidirektion Würzburg 318
Polizeioberfeldarzt SS-Oberabschnitt Main 179
Polizeipräsident Duisburg 474
Polizeipräsident Nürnberg-Fürth 140, 179, 283, 363

Bahnschutzpolizei
Rzeszow 886

Gendarmerie
Arnum 067
Bad Neustadt 291
Biala Podlaska 804
Dolina 887
Gorlice 566
Hasselfelde 382
Herringen 296
Kasimierz 582
Kowel 638
Losice 868
Lubraniec 633
Mielau 755
Orsoy 311
Piaski 333
Podhajce 832
Schöneck 475
Sdolbunow 553, 592
Slonim 810
Srebnoje 871
Tarnogrod 844, 845
Tomaszow-Mazowiecki 908
Tyszowce 575
Ustinowka 915
Vilsbiburg 182
Warschau 875
Wieliczka 905
Wolbrom 797

Gestapo
(siehe auch Grenzpolizei, Sicherheitspolizei)
Norwegen 739
Allenstein 626
Augsburg 114
Berlin 754
Bielefeld 543
Bochum 400, 419, 438, 460
Brauweiler 189, 728
Danzig 319, 443
Darmstadt 611, 613
Dortmund 126, 312, 313, 314, 401
Dünaburg 266
Düsseldorf 142, 148
Effeld 259
Erkelenz 299, 326
Frankfurt/M. 207, 267
Giessen 261, 304
Hagen 323, 324, 406, 425
Hamburg 147
Heide 160
Hildesheim 303, 359
Innsbruck 442
Jesenice 891
Karlsruhe 309
Koblenz 538
Köln 189, 334, 362/1, 403
Lemberg 544
Lodz 557, 892
Lublin 790
Lützen-Lettgallen 266
München 404
Nürnberg-Fürth 083, 104, 140, 283
Offenbach 367
Oslo 808
Padua 771
Recklinghausen 257
Regensburg 418
Reval 266
Siegen 235
Stuttgart 059, 116, 245, 388, 615
Tilsit 444, 465, 485, 509, 521, 547
Warschau 586
Würzburg 138, 283, 291

Grenzpolizei
Dalheim 301
Delfzijl 859
Eydtkau 521, 547
Friedrichshafen 116, 423
Gorlice 688
Heydekrug 511, 554, 579
Hrubieszow 674
Jaslo 687, 780
Kolleschen 511
Krosno 796
Neu-Sandez 635
Niebüll/Südtondern 200
Przemysl 699, 867, 872
Sanok 799
Wlodawa 582

Hilfspolizei
Ingelheim 020
Leck 199
Lettische Hilfspolizei Riga ('Kommando Arajs') 856

Kreispolizei
Siwaschi 910
Lettische Kreispolizei Rositten 890

Kriminalpolizei
Berlin 126
Bottrop 256
Dortmund 124
Kassel 202
Minsk 298
Mülheim 353
Nürnberg-Fürth 140
Ostrowiec 292
Schweinfurt 412, 416/1
Tomaszow 514

Landwacht
Augustfehn 476
Jaroslawiec 672
Stiege 382

Ordnungspolizei
Warschau 875

Politische Polizei
Danzig 319
Dortmund 126
Köln 189
Nürnberg-Fürth 104

Polizeibataillone und -regimenter
Pol.Btl.13 760
Pol.Btl.21 789
Pol.Btl.61 396
Pol.Btl.91 558, 785
Pol.Btl.306 589, 787
Pol.Btl.307 764
Pol.Btl.309 664, 792, 840
Pol.Btl.314 663, 878
Pol.Btl.316 678
Pol.Btl.322 555
Pol.Res.Btl.11 546
Pol.Res.Komp.Köln 767
Pol.Rgt.15 776, 842
Pol.Rgt.17 898
Pol.Rgt.26 828
Pol.Rgt.IV ('Warschau') 558
Pol.Rgt.Süd (Nachrichtenabteilung 2) 838, 879
Res.Pol.Btl.45 759, 823
Res.Pol.Btl.69 730, 741
Res.Pol.Btl.101 (Pol.Rgt.25) 670, 770, 772

Reichssicherheitshauptamt
Amt VI 453
Berater für Judenangelegenheiten in Bukarest 876
Falschgeldunternehmen 'Bernhard' 854
Kriminaltechnisches Institut 542, 658
Referat IID3A 632
Referat IVA1 260
Referat IVb4 745, 753, 771
Schutzhaftreferat 707
Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann in Budapest 716
Sonderkommando H. in Cannes 578

Schutzpolizei
Ansbach 010, 029
Bielsk 718
Düsseldorf 125
Frankfurt/M. 194, 258
Graz 524
Grodsjanka 644
Iserlohn 131
Kassel 055, 132, 195, 229, 293
Kielce 706, 757
Mannheim 063
Memel 465, 499
Oberursel 106
Ostrowiec 433, 783
Ottmachau 489, 522
Roswaschew 861
Schwäbisch Gmünd 038
Siegburg 349
Stanislau 395
Stryj 395
Tschenstochau 477, 600, 621, 631, 668, 815
Zamosc 790

SD
Bad Rabka (SD-Schule) 689
Czortkow 440
Libau 760
Lublin 790
Opatow 848
Pinsk 787
Tilsit 465

Sicherheitspolizei
Frankreich 858
Italien 771
Niederlande 563, 645
Serbien 362
Aachen 110
Baranowicze 617
Belgrad 679, 700
Berditschew 490
Bialystok 487, 648
Bilgoray 846, 847
Brüssel 870
Budapest 716
Chalons-sur-Marne 904
Cholm 691
Czortkow 515, 541, 550, 597
Drohobycz 531
Dünaburg 708
Düsseldorf 385
Frankfurt/Oder 758
Freiburg/Brsg 402
Grodno 684
Hancewicze 617
Kassel 308
Kiel 677
Kielce 706, 865
Kiew 526, 560
Köln 732
Kolomea 657, 743
Krakau 667
Krakau 850
Lemberg 671
Lublin 826
Mielec 655
Minsk 552, 601
Radom 786
Radzyn 737
Riga 307, 843
Rzeszow 711, 749
Sokal 159
Stanislau 675, 788
Starachowice 768
Szczawnica 593
Tarnopol 634
Tarnow 710, 775, 814
Tomaszow 781
Uman 526, 560
Warschau 795, 821, 822
Wiesbaden 378
Wilejka 851
Wilna 192
Zakopane 593
Zamosc 790
Zawiercie 894
Zichenau-Schröttersburg 834, 836

(Höherer) SS- und Polizeiführer
HSSPF West in Düsseldorf 173, 325, 369, 389
Kampfgruppe Dietrich des HSSPF Russland Mitte 604, 644
SSPF Krakau 619, 762, 911
SSPF Lemberg 355
SSPF Lublin 812
SSPF Minsk 512
SSPF Warschau 875

Selbstschutz
Bezirk Fordon 681
Hörnersfeld 895
Konitz 237
Kreis Alexandrowo 539
Kreis Konitz 590
Kreis Tuchel 590
Kreis Warlubien 602
Kreis Zempelburg 590, 803
Lublin 899
Schmiedeberg 562
Schöneck 475
Thorn 709
Vandsburg 569
Wellendorf 581

Zollgrenzschutz
Moos 089
Skala 723

* * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

EINSATZKOMMANDOS
EKI/1 1043
EKII 1328
EK4b 1037, 1082
EK8 1044, 1049
EK10a 1024
EK12 1023

POLIZEI
siehe auch Wehrmacht - Heer: Feldgendarmerie und Geheime Feldpolizei

Ausländische Polizei
Lettische Sicherheitshilfspolizei Riga 1015
Rigaer Ordnungsdienst 1015

Deutsche Polizei
Polizei in Eisleben 1403
Polizei in Ermsleben 1344
Polizei in Gittersee 1641
Polizei in Gorenice 1127
Polizei in Lodz 2063
Polizei in Magdeburg 1296
Polizei in Oebisfelde 1304
Polizei in Olkusz 1127
Polizei in Polleben 1568
Polizei in Siegmar-Schönau 1603

16.mot. Polizeiabteilung 2050
2. Königsberger Pol.Rgt. 1092

Bahnpolizei Halle 2007
Bahnpolizei Warschau 1507

Feuerschutzpolizei Magdeburg 1481

Gendarmerie Altranstädt 2064
Gendarmerie Arnsdorf 2071
Gendarmerie Bad Wilsnack 1264
Gendarmerie Cranzahl 1595
Gendarmerie Einsatzkommando 'Stalino' 1136
Gendarmerie Falkenhof 1106
Gendarmerie Förderstedt 1128
Gendarmerie Frankfurt/Oder 1368
Gendarmerie Frohburg 1470
Gendarmerie Galizien (Ort unbekannt) 1224
Gendarmerie Gallwiese 1106
Gendarmerie Girbigsdorf 1525
Gendarmerie Gruszczyce 1058
Gendarmerie Kreis Forst 1172
Gendarmerie Langewiesen 1286
Gendarmerie Malkinia 1076
Gendarmerie Melzow 1164
Gendarmerie Mertendorf 1542
Gendarmerie Neusalza-Spremberg 1260
Gendarmerie Nowy Dwor 1058
Gendarmerie Przemyslany 1224
Gendarmerie Rakow 1702
Gendarmerie Rengersdorf 2022
Gendarmerie Schönberg 1479
Gendarmerie Schönfeld 1474
Gendarmerie Semmenstedt 1107
Gendarmerie Steinbach 1421
Gendarmerie Sucholowa 1058
Gendarmerie Tschechien 2058
Gendarmeriebtl. (mot.) 1 1041
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 7 1041
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 16 1016
Gendarmeriezug (mot.) 62 1041
Gendarmerie (Einheit unbekannt) 2056

Gestapo Belgrad 1163
Gestapo Beneschau 1042
Gestapo Breslau 1008, 1254
Gestapo Chrudim (Sonderkommando) 1042
Gestapo Dresden 1003, 1839, 2079
Gestapo Drohobycz 1039
Gestapo Frankfurt/Main 1328
Gestapo Kolin 1042
Gestapo Krakau 2079
Gestapo Lissa 1075
Gestapo Magdeburg 2013
Gestapo Mielec 1051
Gestapo Niedersachswerfen 1562
Gestapo Pardubice 2014
Gestapo Paris 2013
Gestapo Pionki (Dolmetscher) 2088
Gestapo Plauen 1512
Gestapo Potsdam 1163
Gestapo Prag 1100
Gestapo Rzeszow 1051
Gestapo Stalowa Wola 1051
Gestapo Stanislau 1026, 1031, 1039
Gestapo Stettin 1090
Gestapo Suhl 1208
Gestapo Thorn 1090
Gestapo Weimar 1323, 1337
Gestapo Zichenau-Schröttersburg 1014
Gestapo Zwickau 1512

Grenzpolizei Blachstädt 1043
Grenzpolizei Platerow 1035, 1038
Grenzpolizei Przemysl 1043
Grenzpolizei Siedlce 1035, 1038

Hilfspolizei Annaberg 1625
Hilfspolizei Döblitz 1778
Hilfspolizei Dresden 1220
Hilfspolizei Freyburg 1486
Hilfspolizei Grossbrüchter 1091
Hilfspolizei Güsten 1367
Hilfspolizei Janowiec 1053
Hilfspolizei Klein- und Grosswerther 1614
Hilfspolizei Lowitsch 2054
Hilfspolizei Osterwieck 1563
Hilfspolizei Prettin 1115
Hilfspolizei Preussisch Börnecke 1766
Hilfspolizei Reinhardtsgrimma 1370
Hilfspolizei Ummendorf 1441

Kripo Berlin 1354, 1646
Kripo Dresden 2018, 2079
Kripo Meissen 2075

Landwacht Ermsleben 1344
Landwacht Görsdorf 1433
Landwacht Gresse 1496
Landwacht Hesserode 1614
Landwacht Knippelsdorf 1147
Landwacht Melzow 1164
Landwacht Polleben 1568
Landwacht Schiass 1694
Landwacht Solpke 1802
Landwacht Teichdorf 1125
Landwacht Zinow 1202

Ortspolizei Hettstedt 1281
Ortspolizei Neustadt an der Dosse 1714

Pionierzug 2029

Pol.Btl. 1149
Pol.Btl. 2018
Pol.Btl. Berlin-Spandau 1379
Pol.Btl. in Mährisch Ostrau 1153
Pol.Btl.9 2031
Pol.Btl.22 1132
Pol.Btl.41 1004, 1005
Pol.Btl.44 1074
Pol.Btl.93 1536
Pol.Btl.304 1002, 1012, 1017, 1020, 1029
Pol.Btl.310 1006, 1007
Pol.Res.Wachbtl. Lodz 2074
Pol.Rgt.15 1006, 1007, 1036
Pol.Rgt.36 2060
Pol.Rgt.88 1534
Polizei-Einsatz-Reservekompanie Halle 1173

Res.Pol.Btl. 1136
Res.Pol.Btl.41 1005
Res.Pol.Btl.82 1013
Res.Pol.Btl.Kolin 1009, 1045

Reichssicherheitshauptamt 1163

Schupo 1135
Schupo Dresden 1839
Schupo Lodz 1159
Schupo Schwedt 1063
Schupo Warschau 2028
Schupo Wurzen 1084

SD Hohensalza 1032
SD Posen 1032
SD Rennes 1235
SD Einheit unbekannt 1101

Sipo Krakau 1043
Sipo Libau 1046
Sipo ****omir 1090
Sipo Warschau 1049

SS-Pol.Rgt.2 1065
SS-Pol.Rgt.22 1005

Einheit unbekannt 2026

SELBSTSCHUTZ
Janowiec 1053
Klamry-Dolky 1062
Kulmisch Damerau 1047
Lomianki 1124
Ostrow Swiecki 1054
Radzyn-Wies 1048
Rehwalde 1121

The JuNSV website lists West German war crimes trials by the defendants' unit or agency in German at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

and in English [partial translations only] at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstengfr.htm

The East German war crimes trials are organized the same way. They may be found at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm





Take a suck at those with your law systems pal.....

Oh, and you still haven't answered my questions, how predictable.
do you have a list of allied trials too? rofl

machupichu
12-31-2004, 08:01 AM
btw, you should not wait for me to make typos to base your argumentation on, thats kind of infantile. ;)

donnergott
12-31-2004, 08:25 AM
the "deutschlandlied" was written by heinrich heine in the time of the german revolution in 1848. in this time germany was splitted in hundreds of small states. the german people want to unite the county. thousands of students rise against their states and started a revolution. from this time came the "deutschlandlied" . incidentally notice heinrich heine was a jew.

attacking russia was a must for hitler, because fight against the bolschewism was his first statement of his politics. the majority of his supporters frightend of bolschewism overtake in europe.

hitler wasn´t resolute to terminate britain. he hopes it would give an peace agreement with britain. it was an strategic necessity to attack britain, otherwise it would becomes( what it becomes) an airplane carrier in front of his territory.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-31-2004, 02:04 PM
macupichu wrote,

do you have a list of allied trials too? rofl

If you think thats funny then you'll love this,

Concentration camps, slave labor camps, etc

This allows one to view the concentration camps, slave labor camps, and industries whose members were tried in postwar German courts for war crimes. Off to the side of the unit are the case numbers of the trials involving that camp or industry. One only has to click on the case number to get the details on the case. For all German trials on this subject, here's the list:

West German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Haftstättenpersonal und Funktionshäftlinge [Detention Personnel and Prisoner Treatment]

Arbeitserziehungslager [Labor Education Camps]
- Frankfurt/M.-Heddernheim 267
- Hirzenhain 268
- Hückelhoven 213, 299
- Innsbruck-Reichenau 457
- Oberndorf-Aistaig 295
- Salaspils 307

Arbeitshaus Schloss Kaltenstein in Vaihingen/Enz 100, 386
Emslandlager I (Börgermoor) 484
Emslandlager II (Aschendorf) 610
Erweitertes Polizeigefangenenlager Mainz 164
Fremdarbeiterlager Beiertheim-Albufer 366

Gefängnisse [Prisons]
- Bochum 141
- Fort Queleu 705
- Giessen 025
- Lublin 165

Gestapohaftanstalt Kleine Festung in Theresienstadt 218, 356
Häftlingstransportkommando 049
HJ-Wehrertüchtigungslager Marktheidenfeld 085

Kriegsgefangenlager [POW Camps]
- Fulda 139
- Hommerich 294
- Wien-Ottakring 471

Konzentrations- und Vernichtungslager [Concentration and Death Camps]
- Ahlem 827
- Aslau 818
- Auschwitz 340, 450, 462/1, 468, 483, 500, 595, 637, 680, 740, 829, 884, 902, 909
- Bad Gandersheim 156
- Belzec 585
- Berta 214
- Bisingen 625
- Blizyn 510
- Breslau- Deutsch Lissa 387
- Brockzetel 300
- Buchenwald 145, 188, 262, 322, 358, 376, 377, 464, 616, 742, 766, 903
- Chelmno 594, 603
- Dachau 496, 525, 824
- Dautmergen 625, 717
- Dora 731
- Ebensee 779
- Ereda 841, 857
- Esterwegen 340, 473
- Flossenbürg 161, 181, 370, 422, 436, 448, 449, 614, 650
- Gassen 862
- Gleiwitz 346
- Gleiwitz II 340
- Golleschau 379, 416, 866, 882
- Görlitz 297
- Gross- Rosen 387, 392, 535, 734, 889
- Günthergrube 375, 817
- Gusen I 246, 451, 505, 692
- Gusen II 478
- Gut Jungfernhof 307
- Hamburg- Eidelstedt 880
- Hannover- Mühlenberg 873
- Hannover- Stöcken 549, 576
- Happurg 223
- Helmbrechts 713
- Hersbruck 223
- Jaworzno 863
- Kaufering 221
- Kelbra 837
- Lagischa 866, 907
- Lieberose 598
- Majdanek 852, 855, 869, 906
- Markirch 625
- Mauthausen 493, 659, 738, 900
- Meissen 181
- Melk 468, 502
- Neckarelz 625, 640
- Neckargerach 625
- Neuengamme 286
- Niederhagen Wewelsburg 397, 747
- Niedersachswerfen 346
- Obertraubling 379, 416
- Porta Westfalica 321
- Radegast 184
- Ravensbrück 222, 224, 273
- Rechlin 835
- Riga- Kaiserwald 896
- Riga- Lenta 227
- Rottleberode 888
- Sachsenhausen (Akdo 12.SS-Baubrigade) 532
- Sachsenhausen 093, 327, 340, 394, 405, 473, 488, 497, 504, 529, 537, 545, 591, 719, 721, 729
- Schömberg 625
- Schörzingen 625
- Sobibor 212, 233, 641, 642, 746, 885, 897
- Sollstedt 417
- Sonneberg 281, 744
- Spaichingen 625
- St. Valentin 336
- Stempeda 888
- Steyr- Münichholz 502
- Stutthof 240, 446, 584
- Treblinka 270, 596, 746, 761
- Vaivara 625, 717, 841
- Vivikoni II 625, 717, 841
- Weimar Gustloff Werke 340
- Wiener Neudorf 912
- Woffleben 274
- Zwickau 431

Polizeiarrestanstalt West in Spandau 056
Russenlager in Kamp-Lintfort 311
Selbstschutzlager Resmin 803
SS-Sonderlager Hinzert 516, 523, 527
Straflager für Ostarbeiter bei den Klöckner-Werken in Hagen-Haspe 323, 425
Südlager des Fliegerhorstes Marx 352

Zwangsarbeitslager (für Juden) [Forced Labor Camps (for Jews)]
- Biezanow 506
- Bischadka 414
- Blizyn 839
- Bobruisk 825
- Bochnia 667, 736
- Boryslaw 653
- Buczacz 498
- Budzyn 812
- Czortkow 455, 498
- Drohobycz 355, 646, 763, 798
- Galizien (Inspekteur) 653
- Hluboczek 435, 455, 498
- Jagielnica 498
- Jezierzany 498
- Kamionki 455, 498
- Krasnik 813
- Kreis Heydekrug 579
- Lemberg-Janowskastrasse 849
- Lublin 813, 831
- Luzk 647
- Plaszow 506, 794
- Prokocim 506
- Przemysl 911
- Rozwadow 911
- Ruda-Opalin 158
- Rymanow 735
- Sawin 913
- Skarzysko-Kamienna 654
- Slomczyn 462
- Swidowa 498
- Tarnow 571
- Wolanow 399

Industrie [Industrial Concerns]

Arbeitsgemeinschaft von Bauunternehmen bei Tarnopol 277
Baufirma Schmitt und Junk in Krasnik 289
Bergwerkfirma in Oberhausen 290
Deutsche Ausrüstungswerke Lemberg 756
Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung (Degesch) in Frankfurt/M. 415
Deutsche Werft AG in Hamburg 254
Didier Werke in Duisburg 128
Firma D. und Fis. Petrikauer Holzwerke in Petrikau 463
Firma Hugo Schneider AG (Hasag) Werk Pelzery bei Tschenstochau 186, 275
Firma K. in Heiligenhaus 217
Firma Max Koernig in Posen-Dembsen 204
Firma Rentsch in Schwarzenbach 036, 064
Firma W. in Solingen-Ohligs 092
Grillo-Werke in Oberhausen 238
Hermann Goering Werke in Starachowice 751, 801
Lebkuchenfabrik Häberlein und Metzger in Nürnberg 129
Lederfabrik Fränkl in Schaulen 146
Lemather Kalkwerke 152
Maschinenfabrik Donauwörth 081
Messerschmittwerke in Obertraubling 269
Rheinisch-Westfälische Elektrizitätswerke in Essen 350
Tacho-Schnellwaagenfabrik in Duisburg-Grossenbaum 050
Organisation Todt
Baustelle Hungerburg 130
Baustelle Mitau 130
Baustelle Narwa 130
Baustelle Penkuli 130
Baustelle Steinbruch Ensingen 205
Bautrupp in Saczepka 149
OT-Abteilung in Simiaczice 277

* * * * * * * * * *

East German Trials
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/ddr/ddrdienststfr.htm

HAFTSTÄTTEN [Detention Facilities]

AEL Berlin-Wuhlheide 1401
AEL Radeberg 1839
AEL Römhild 2016
AEL Süplingen 1327

AL Berlin-Adlershof 2047
AL Munzig 1393
AL Oranienburg 2047

Feldstrafgefangenenabt.III 1320
Feldstrafgefangenenabt. 1482
Feldstraflager III 1352

Fremdarbeiterlager Rehwiese in Harthau 1414

Gefängnis Dresden 1798
Gefängnis Halle 1732
Gefängnis Hannover (Arzt) 2037
Gefängnis Ichtershausen 1265
Gefängnis Königsberg (Arzt) 2037
Gefängnis Plauen 1483
Gefängnis Radom 2035
Gefängnis Stralsund 2017
Gefängnis siehe auch: Polizeigefängnis, Wehrmachtsgefängnis, Zuchthaus

Gestapohaftanstalt Kleine Festung in Theresienstadt 1050

KGL Brückenberg 2002
KGL Bützow 1517
KGL Eidlitz 1373
KGL Falkenberg 2085
KGL Gleiwitz 2085
KGL Oppeln 2085
KGL Zeithain 2019

KL Arnstadt 2050
KL Auschwitz 1060, 1064, 1130, 1218, 1219, 1245, 1312, 1464, 1527, 2062
KL Barth 1055, 2021
KL Börnicke 1096
KL Bostel 1241
KL Braunschweig 1334
KL Buchenwald 1079, 1204, 1315, 1339, 1387, 1583, 1635, 1761, 1793, 2045
KL Dachau 1109, 2030
KL Dora 1406
KL Flossenbürg 1070, 1111, 1217, 1350, 1464, 1676, 1793
KL Genthin 1055, 1099
KL Gross-Rosen 1765
KL Gusen 1109, 1219, 1464
KL Hammerstein 1548
KL Hirschfeld 1765
KL Hohnstein 1268, 1358, 1411, 1430, 1795, 2076
KL Insel Alderney 1467
KL Königstein-Halbestadt 1411, 1473
KL Laura Oertelsbruch 1253
KL Leitmeritz 1111
KL Lichtenburg 1079, 1203, 1518
KL Lobositz 1139
KL Mauthausen 1111
KL Misburg 1334
KL Myslowitz 2001
KL Neu Rohlau 1120
KL Neubrandenburg 1055
KL Neuengamme 1057, 1241, 1334, 1350
KL Oederan 1120
KL Plattling 1521
KL Ravensbrück 1055, 1099, 1120, 1139, 1188, 1561, 1587, 2021
KL Sachsenburg 1814
KL Sachsenhausen 1052, 1059, 1066, 1098, 1109, 1130, 1217, 1381, 1439, 1506, 1769, 2010
KL Sachsenhausen (Baubrigade Düsseldorf) 1066
KL Schloss Osterstein 1640
KL Sonneberg 1315
KL Sonnenburg 1548
KL Treblinka 1345
KL Voigtsberg 1429
KL Warschau 1227

Polizeigefängnis Leipzig 1800

Wehrmachtsgefängnis Torgau 1336, 1482
Wehrmachtsgefängnis Torgau-Brückenkopf 2059
Wehrmachtsstrafgefangenenlager Bitterfeld 1482

ZAL Kattowitz 1130

Zuchthaus Berlin-Moabit 2044
Zuchthaus Brandenburg 1061, 1510, 1551, 1664, 1747, 2009
Zuchthaus Halle 1210, 1509
Zuchthaus siehe auch: Gefängnis, Polizeigefängnis, Wehrmachtsgefängnis

ORGANISATION TODT [Construction Camps]
Organisation Todt 2032
Organisation Todt Assen 1669

WIRTSCHAFT [War Economy Plants]
AEG Bodenbach 1556
Betrieb für Landmaschinen in Bützow 1517
Betrieb Haubold in Chemnitz 1672
Brauereibetrieb in Brandenburg/Havel 1767
Brotfabriekunion Chemnitz 1410
Chemnitzer Elektrizitätswerke Nord 1697
Daimler-Benz Werke Genshagen 1229
Daimler-Benz Werke Kamenz 2015
Eisengiesserei in Meerane 1515

Fa. Alfred Rossner in Bendzin 1343
Fa. Beckert in Hohenstein-Ernstthal 1581
Fa. Colas Kaltasphalt im KL Buchenwald 1615
Fa. Drehmechanik in Hohen Neuendorf 1166
Fa. Ebelt & Stille in Pirna 1809
Fa. F.G. Sohre in Dresden-Freital 1330, 1571
Fa. Frühauf in Walddorf 1735
Fa. Gebr. Cruse und Co Dresden 1780
Fa. Hans Haufe in Dresden 1319
Fa. Hoyer & Klemm Gartenbetrieb in Dresden 1477
Fa. Huhnholz in Gera 1565
Fa. Jaeger und Co Leipzig 1750
Fa. Leonhardt und Söhne in Crossen bei Zwickau 2020
Fa. Lorenz AG in Guben 1554
Fa. Pertrix in Berlin 1209
Fa. Pintsch in Fürstenwalde 1095
Fa. Reh und Co in Cranzahl 1595

Here are some concentration camps, forced labor camps and other detention facilities implicated in war crimes trials held by the Netherlands. The arrangement of these trials is very similar to that used for the German trials. The Netherlands trials can be found on the JuNSV website at:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/NED/NL-Dienststfr.htm

Haftstättenpersonal [Detention Facilities]

Gefängnis Amsterdam NL016
Gefängnis Scheveningen NL214
KL Amersfoort NL043, NL044, NL045, NL046, NL047, NL057, NL135, NL136, NL224, NL238
KL Rathenow NL056
KL Vught (= KL Herzogenbusch) NL022, NL028, NL030, NL047, NL059, NL060, NL182, NL214, NL237
KL Westerbork NL062
Polizeigefängnis Haaren NL024, NL104
ZAL Doetinchem NL142
ZAL Empel-Rees NL127, NL194, NL195, NL196
ZAL Zöschen NL218
Haftstätte unbekannt NL081

Organisation Todt [OT Construction Combine]

NL009, NL012, NL083, NL112, NL113, NL154, NL198, NL239

Zivilverwaltung [German Civil Administration]

Beauftragter des Reichskommissars für die Provinz Gelderland NL205
Beauftragter des Reichskommissars für die Provinz Gelderland (NS-Volkswohlfahrt Arnhem) NL213
Beauftragter des Reichskommissars für die Provinz Nord Brabant NL111
Beauftragter des Reichskommissars für die Provinz Overijssel NL049
Beauftragter des Reichsministeriums für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion Aussenstelle Südholland NL091
Bezirksarbeitsamt Meppel NL096
Büro für den Arbeitseinsatz Zeeland NL187
Reichskommissariat (NS-Volkswohlfahrt) NL212
Reichskommissariat Hauptabt. gewerbliche Wirtschaft NL086
Reichsministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion NL158
Treuhand NL008, NL040, NL065, NL070
Wirtschaftsprüfstelle NL086

Industrie [German Industrial Firms]

Baubetrieb NL008
Firma Westland Hoch- und Tiefbau NL126
Reichsstelle für Hochfrequenzforschung NL215, NL216
Verwalter einer jüdischen Pelzwarenfabrik NL009

Musashi wrote,

If you were intelligent you would have known his name is Maori. [Check where Maoris live, because I am COMPLETELY sure you don't know it].
I told you several times you are stupid, so don't make your situation worse.
I see you are a full of **** racist. I wonder why has not you been banned, yet.
You make other Germans a bad opinion on this forum. Every representative give the others general imagination of his nation. I see you are still too stupid to understand it. I regret, because the other representatives of your nation are far more intelligent than you are and understand it

All very good points, and I believe you are especially correct in regards to his racism, as examples his calling me a 'little african boy' and this little gem I found on page 11 of the 'Germanys memorial to Jews completed' thread.
machupichu wrote,

...those moronic fans of jew-industry...
Not to mention his arrogant dismissals of German atrocities committed in WW2,
machupichu wrote,

"murdering and pillaging" does not equal holocaust.
or
machupichu wrote,

maybe you should use those standards on allied forces too then we will have more holocausts to celebrate! : woot :

Like all racists he doesn't have the courage to state his beliefs clearly even when challenged. Instead he chooses to avoid the issue by attempting to hide behind poorly constructed arguments. His attempts at misdirection through the use of 'big' words fail due to the poor grammar and lack of understanding on his part. The end result of which is that he looks more immature and pathetic each time he posts.

Such a pathetic creature.... :roll:

machupichu
12-31-2004, 02:37 PM
lol, you really made me laugh this time.

90% of your conclusions are even technically wrong, you should take some lessons on logic. ;)

i wont bother commenting on those silly statements of yours until someone taught you how to do the information->conclusion transformation correctly
rofl

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-31-2004, 04:51 PM
lol, you really made me laugh this time.

90% of your conclusions are even technically wrong, you should take some lessons on logic. ;)

i wont bother commenting on those silly statements of yours until someone taught you how to do the information->conclusion transformation correctly rofl

Well then you did comment on them didn't you.

Face it, you are simply incapable of constructing an even rudimentary argument with any facts what so ever to back your view up. You can't even answer a few simple questions, why?

Obviously like all small minded, pitiable, racist individuals in need of professional help you can't relinquish your deeply held bigotry because to do so would leave you bereft of an identity, no matter how damaged that it might be.

I pity you. :petting:

donnergott
01-04-2005, 11:54 AM
i wrote b****s***. the deutschlandlied was written by heinrich hoffmann von fallersleben.

plodey
01-04-2005, 09:00 PM
What the f*** does this have to do with Monte Cassino you hijackers!

Domen
09-16-2009, 07:39 PM
Joseph Klein, soldier of 1. Fallschirmjäger-Division (about combats near Monte Cassino in 1944):

"Poles were admirable. It really must be said, they were fearless soldiers - the most brave of all. As if they had some kind of external propulsion. It was on the edge of fanaticism."

Source - television statement of Joseph Klein for BBC from 2008 (part of "World War II Behind Closed Doors" documentary series).

Wally1967
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
What the f*** does this have to do with Monte Cassino you hijackers!

X 2

It's silly.