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b.scheller
12-23-2004, 02:42 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino10.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-555.jpg

http://www.koch-athene.de/images/6th/aschaffenburg/45asch7.jpg

http://www.1939-45.org/images/imarticl/cassino/cassino.jpg

http://digitallibrary.smu.edu/cul/gir/ww2/mcsc/italy/images/mcs031it.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-557.jpg

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/ww2-554.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino11.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino3.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino2.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino8.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino5.jpg

http://**************/recent/cassino4.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44b.jpg

http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/mout/WWII_MOUT_CassinoApr44a.jpg

http://www.curme.co.uk/cas14.jpg

http://img150.exs.cx/img150/8347/montecassino010zq.jpg

Howie Kaluha
12-23-2004, 02:42 AM
Great pics.....

Phil642
12-23-2004, 04:26 AM
Historical moment in the WWII!

Good to remind it Barb'

Millen
12-23-2004, 04:33 AM
Great pics man save all thx

One of the hardes battle in WWII

Spud
12-23-2004, 05:17 AM
And unfortunately what none of those photos show is just how intimidating that feature is. I saw it up close a few weeks ago while on leave and I still have trouble comprhending how anyone assaulted that place. Despite the prep barrages, air strikes etc a few fixed MG's and assualting force would be massacred ... truly one of the most amazing operations of the war.

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 05:31 AM
Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

aleczapka
12-23-2004, 05:33 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

I recognize this photo. ;) Aren't they Polish granadiers?

Freibier
12-23-2004, 05:38 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Millen
12-23-2004, 05:41 AM
http://**************/recent/cassino9.jpg

I recognize this photo. ;) Aren't they Polish granadiers?

yep Polish fight with great bravery in Monte Casino awsome fighters

drGreen
12-23-2004, 06:26 AM
what a waiste of good ammo that bombing of the abbey

Scottie
12-23-2004, 06:38 AM
Great pics!! An Amazing Historical Battle!

Marmot1
12-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot


AFAIR they left abbey after they were flanked from the right... and it was pointless to hold it any longer

Kitsune
12-23-2004, 10:31 AM
The German Fallschirmjäger had developed quite a sense of defiance to hold their position "one more day" and "one day more" and so on. They were so disgrunteld at the order to withdraw that they first ignored it...only after it was repeated did they obey.
Allegedly after the Battle of Monte Cassino the British General Alexander said that the German partroopers would be the best soldiers of the world.
In any case, praise from your enemy is the best praise. :D

skycaptain
12-23-2004, 10:48 AM
In which year?
Thanks! :lol:

SpiderKid
12-23-2004, 10:56 AM
In which year?
Thanks! :lol:

WWII - the one Japan screwed China over rofl

sp2c
12-23-2004, 10:57 AM
from january until 15th of februari 1944 I think but I'm not sure

supposedly one of the hardest fought fights of WW2

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 11:05 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Freibier
12-23-2004, 11:09 AM
January 12th till May 19th, 1944.

sp2c
12-23-2004, 11:14 AM
for as far as I know the fallschirmjaeger behaved themselves honourably dury in general so yeah I'd call them heroes if I ever meet some.

according to my grandfather (he fought in and among Rotterdam) they were quite hard but fair during the may hostilities in 1940 he held no grudges towards them (unlike some of the other units)

perdurabo
12-23-2004, 11:22 AM
Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!
AGREED!

LordHalbert
12-23-2004, 11:29 AM
I like the way they did things in WWII.

If a cathedral was being used as a military stronghold back then, they simply blew it up.

In Iraq today, we have to debate whether harming a mosque will irritate people even though it's crammed full of ammo.

It was just different back then - less nonsense and more action.

sp2c
12-23-2004, 11:39 AM
they bombed it only after weeks of heavy fighting.

I'm pretty sure that the US (or any other country in the world) will blow up any building religious or not if it stalled their advance for so long and gave them that much casualties

you just can't compare Iraq to ww2 on any subject

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 11:45 AM
for as far as I know the fallschirmjaeger behaved themselves honourably dury in general so yeah I'd call them heroes if I ever meet some.


But they did know for who and for what they were fighting for. And this is my problem in calling them heroes. Propably they just did their duty without any kind of crimes but they did their duty for a criminal.

@LordHalbert:
I think there is a diffenerence in christians blowing up christian churches and in christians blowing up mosques. That act of blowing it up propably solves the situation in this certain moment, but afterwards you get a problem with the whole islamic world.

donnergott
12-23-2004, 12:12 PM
us soldiers that fight in iraq knews for what and whom they fight too. and they were calling heros too. of course somebody means war in iraq is criminal too.

to the time of bombing, no german soldier stayed in the abbey. the monk don gregorio diamare confirmed this. but hundreds of wounded and civilians from the village cassino. they were murdered. so seen it was a warcrime.

Crazyjack
12-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Well if you call a soldier hero or not depends on the point of view. I dont like war, and i wouldn´t like to be called a heroe if i was a soldier in a war.

oldsoak
12-23-2004, 12:35 PM
The defense of Cassino was very good and was conducted by good troops who were well led. The terrain favoured the defenders and the bombing gave them endless possibilities for forming defensive pockets. Trying to assault uphill in that sort of terrain against an entrenched enemy with good fields of fire, lots of ammo, plus endless possibilities for defensive positions takes some doing. It would have been interesting to see if the Germans could have done better if the roles were reversed.

Catch22
12-23-2004, 12:37 PM
As for german Falschirmjaegers we can sum it up - they were good, brave in means of soldiering and comradeship, but - unlucky for them, their case was unjust. That lays a shadow even onto most heroic and humane deeds they performed. That's the price not only of losing a war (WWI soldiers are to be honoured equally in my eyes), but a price of fighting on the side of indentifiable evil.

Marmot1
12-23-2004, 12:56 PM
us soldiers that fight in iraq knews for what and whom they fight too. and they were calling heros too. of course somebody means war in iraq is criminal too.

to the time of bombing, no german soldier stayed in the abbey. the monk don gregorio diamare confirmed this. but hundreds of wounded and civilians from the village cassino. they were murdered. so seen it was a warcrime.

cassino village was located few cilometers away and several hundreds meters below, so you claim that someone during firefight transported wounded civilians few kilometers uphill throgh frontline only to lay them in monastery full of germans? :cantbeli: look at map first... of course there were ppl in in but not hundreds... and as to war crime... you can't call it war crime since monastry was used as military fighting position and alies had no knowledge of who is insiede except for that germans were for sure...

donnergott
12-23-2004, 02:48 PM
read the books of your own historians and you would see, that you wrote bs.

j****z piekalkiewicz - battle of monte cassino

the civilians flew in the abbey to got protection.

you can also read it in e.d. smith - monte cassino 1944

Andyman
12-23-2004, 03:17 PM
my grandfather was there. He was a Canadian Sherman tank commander he told me that mote cassino was the toughest battle he had to endure of all WW2. He lost a really good friend at monte cassino. Yeah once he reached that part of the story he stopped talking.

:(

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 05:02 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

Is that a fact?. Wow, I didn't realise you were there Herrmanek, I mean actually standing next to General Freyberg when he made that decision. So why did he make that decision Herrmanek?, obvioulsy if you know it was the greatest 'fukkup' in that battle then you must obviously know the reasoning behind it right?

Of course you don't because all you are is another armchair general, pontificating on the decisions of others from the safety and comfort of your computer.

Here, i'll educate you.


With the Italian front bogged down, the Allied high command decided on a daring operation to break the deadlock, taking advantage of Allied command of the seas surrounding the Italian peninsula. The plan envisaged Clark's 5th Army breaking through the Gustav Line in the west while, the US VI Corps landed behind the German line at Anzio. For this operation 2nd New Zealand Division would come under Clark's command. Its role would be to exploit the breakthrough by driving up the Liri Valley towards Rome. In mid January 1944 the New Zealanders moved across the Apennines to the Volturno area, where they were to prepare for action. However the offensive did not go to plan: the 5th Army's attack was a costly failure, faltering before the immensely strong German position at Cassino, while VI Corps at Anzio, far from trapping a retreating enemy, soon found itself contained by rapidly redeployed German forces. In early february the New Zealanders were drawn into the Cassino inferno as part of the newly formed New Zealand Corps under Lieutenant-General Sir Bernard Freyberg VC, consisting of their Division, 4th Indian Division, and supporting American and British artillery.
The Gustav line rested securely on a line of mountains, which was broken only by a ten kilometre gap at the Liri valley. The mouth of this strategic valley was overlooked by Monte Cassino, a steep 500 metre high hill topped by the great Benedictine monastery. Below Monte Cassino lay the sheer promontory of Castle Hill, and then the town of Cassino and the Rapido river. The forbidding natural features had been strengthened by demolitions, minefields, flooding and fortifications, which had allowed the German defenders at Cassino to withstand the attacks of the American Corps for nearly three weeks. Although not confident about the task given him by Clark, Freyberg did not dissent, though, conscious of his responsibilities as a national commander as well as a Corp commander, he resolved to limit the number of casualties that the New Zealand division would incur. With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack. He hoped that a heavy aerial bombardment would open the way for the hapless infantry. Convinced that the Germans would not fail to use such a commanding feature as the monastery (an assumption which in retrospect proved to be incorrect), he insisted that the building had to be bombed. His request was approved at the highest level, by Commander-in-Chief General Sir Harold Alexander. Freyberg was informed that the air bombardment would take place on the 15 February, a full day and a half before his Corps would attack. Planning to move the Corps timetable forward to take advantage of the bombing was still in train when the bombing began.
The operation which would engender much post-war controversy, proved to be counter productive: reduced to rubble, the monastery became an even more effective fortress.
Under Freyberg's plan, the 4th Indian Division would take the monastery hill from the north while the New Zealanders cross the Rapido and isolated Cassino township from the south-east, allowing tanks to drive into the Liri valley. Because of the demolitions and flooded ground, only a single battalion could be used in the New Zealand attack. The attack began at midnight on the 17th, 28 Maori Battalion managed to secure positions around the railway station south of the town. The terrain however, prevented armoured support from reaching them. Close-quarter fighting followed as the Germans mounted an immediate counter attack supported by armour which drove the New Zealanders out with 130 casualties. With the Indians proving no more successful in their attacks on the hill, a lull in the fighting developed. While the New Zealand Corps clung to its precarious positions in the mud, the high command dithered. When no new ideas emerged, the corps was ordered to proceed with its attacks.
Because of delays imposed by the weather it was not until 15 March that 6th NZ Brigade attacked Cassino from the north, preceded by a massive aerial bombardment which reduce the town to a giant pile of rubble, but failed to smother German resistance. In Western Front-like conditions, the New Zealand infantry and tanks fought their way into the ruins, while one battalion seized Castle Hill above Cassino. By dusk the attack had lost its impetus, and for the next eight days continued to feed men into the battered town without being able to dislodge the enemy holding it. The wrecked Continental hotel in particular proved to be impregnable.
On 19 March 5th brigade was ordered into the rubble. Although there were now six infantry battalions in the town with armoured support, little progress could be made amid the ruins in the face of the tenacious German paratroopers. By 23rd Freyberg was forced to admit that the division 'had come to the end of its tether' and called a halt to the fruitless attacks. Isolated outposts were withdrawn and the division went on the defense. The New Zealand Corps was dissolved on the 26 March and the division withdrawn from Casino in early April.

The fighting had cost 2nd New Zealand Division 343 lives.

In May 1944 the 8th Army and 5th Army finally broke through the Gustav Line by an out flanking thrust. Monte Cassino fell at last, occupied by Poles with the assistance of New Zealand artillery.

2003 New Zealanders lost their lives in the Italian campaign and another 6705 were wounded.


From the 'Oxford Companion to New Zealand Military History'.

Before making definative statements Herrmanek you might want to do some research first, it'll save you from looking like a ****head.

Freibier wrote,

Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

Bombing the place was greatest fukkup of that battle...there were big caves under casino that could withstand "nuke", Germans hide there and played ping pong, unhurt they were caming out when shelling and bomb rides stoped. Bombs and sheling made advance of allied forces much harder because every next raid gaved new good defence positions for Germans for free...

Is that a fact?. Wow, I didn't realise you were there Herrmanek, I mean actually standing next to General Freyberg when he made that decision. So why did he make that decision Herrmanek?, obvioulsy if you know it was the greatest 'fukkup' in that battle then you must obviously know the reasoning behind it right?

Of course you don't because all you are is another armchair general, pontificating on the decisions of others from the safety and comfort of your computer.

Here, i'll educate you.


With the Italian front bogged down, the Allied high command decided on a daring operation to break the deadlock, taking advantage of Allied command of the seas surrounding the Italian peninsula. The plan envisaged Clark's 5th Army breaking through the Gustav Line in the west while, the US VI Corps landed behind the German line at Anzio. For this operation 2nd New Zealand Division would come under Clark's command. Its role would be to exploit the breakthrough by driving up the Liri Valley towards Rome. In mid January 1944 the New Zealanders moved across the Apennines to the Volturno area, where they were to prepare for action. However the offensive did not go to plan: the 5th Army's attack was a costly failure, faltering before the immensely strong German position at Cassino, while VI Corps at Anzio, far from trapping a retreating enemy, soon found itself contained by rapidly redeployed German forces. In early february the New Zealanders were drawn into the Cassino inferno as part of the newly formed New Zealand Corps under Lieutenant-General Sir Bernard Freyberg VC, consisting of their Division, 4th Indian Division, and supporting American and British artillery.
The Gustav line rested securely on a line of mountains, which was broken only by a ten kilometre gap at the Liri valley. The mouth of this strategic valley was overlooked by Monte Cassino, a steep 500 metre high hill topped by the great Benedictine monastery. Below Monte Cassino lay the sheer promontory of Castle Hill, and then the town of Cassino and the Rapido river. The forbidding natural features had been strengthened by demolitions, minefields, flooding and fortifications, which had allowed the German defenders at Cassino to withstand the attacks of the American Corps for nearly three weeks. Although not confident about the task given him by Clark, Freyberg did not dissent, though, conscious of his responsibilities as a national commander as well as a Corp commander, he resolved to limit the number of casualties that the New Zealand division would incur. With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack. He hoped that a heavy aerial bombardment would open the way for the hapless infantry. Convinced that the Germans would not fail to use such a commanding feature as the monastery (an assumption which in retrospect proved to be incorrect), he insisted that the building had to be bombed. His request was approved at the highest level, by Commander-in-Chief General Sir Harold Alexander. Freyberg was informed that the air bombardment would take place on the 15 February, a full day and a half before his Corps would attack. Planning to move the Corps timetable forward to take advantage of the bombing was still in train when the bombing began.
The operation which would engender much post-war controversy, proved to be counter productive: reduced to rubble, the monastery became an even more effective fortress.
Under Freyberg's plan, the 4th Indian Division would take the monastery hill from the north while the New Zealanders cross the Rapido and isolated Cassino township from the south-east, allowing tanks to drive into the Liri valley. Because of the demolitions and flooded ground, only a single battalion could be used in the New Zealand attack. The attack began at midnight on the 17th, 28 Maori Battalion managed to secure positions around the railway station south of the town. The terrain however, prevented armoured support from reaching them. Close-quarter fighting followed as the Germans mounted an immediate counter attack supported by armour which drove the New Zealanders out with 130 casualties. With the Indians proving no more successful in their attacks on the hill, a lull in the fighting developed. While the New Zealand Corps clung to its precarious positions in the mud, the high command dithered. When no new ideas emerged, the corps was ordered to proceed with its attacks.
Because of delays imposed by the weather it was not until 15 March that 6th NZ Brigade attacked Cassino from the north, preceded by a massive aerial bombardment which reduce the town to a giant pile of rubble, but failed to smother German resistance. In Western Front-like conditions, the New Zealand infantry and tanks fought their way into the ruins, while one battalion seized Castle Hill above Cassino. By dusk the attack had lost its impetus, and for the next eight days continued to feed men into the battered town without being able to dislodge the enemy holding it. The wrecked Continental hotel in particular proved to be impregnable.
On 19 March 5th brigade was ordered into the rubble. Although there were now six infantry battalions in the town with armoured support, little progress could be made amid the ruins in the face of the tenacious German paratroopers. By 23rd Freyberg was forced to admit that the division 'had come to the end of its tether' and called a halt to the fruitless attacks. Isolated outposts were withdrawn and the division went on the defense. The New Zealand Corps was dissolved on the 26 March and the division withdrawn from Casino in early April.

The fighting had cost 2nd New Zealand Division 343 lives.

In May 1944 the 8th Army and 5th Army finally broke through the Gustav Line by an out flanking thrust. Monte Cassino fell at last, occupied by Poles with the assistance of New Zealand artillery.

2003 New Zealanders lost their lives in the Italian campaign and another 6705 were wounded.


From the 'Oxford Companion to New Zealand Military History'.

Before making definative statements Herrmanek you might want to do some research first, it'll save you from looking like a ****head.

Freibier wrote,

Fallschirmjaegers left Monte Cassino undefeated, great heroes woot

Yeah you won the battle, but we won the war.... woot woot woot

I don't see nothing contrary with what i said... bombing was bad decission...and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time or not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important... output counts not input... He made situation worse so its fukkup...

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-23-2004, 06:07 PM
Herrmannek wrote,

I don't see nothing contrary with what i said... bombing was bad decission...and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time or not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important... output counts not input... He made situation worse so its fukkup...

Of course you don't, blinded as you are by arrogance and ignorance.

Allright, i'll break it down for you.


bombing was bad decission... In hindsight, but then thats always 20/20 isn't it?


and poor state of the knowledge Freyberg had at the time ...isn't important Riiight......you really are an armchair general aren't you?. Anyone who says knowledge, or lack of, in warfare is unimportant is at best an amateur, at worst ignorant.


not considering possible but at the moment not obvious risks of bombardmends isn't important How do you know he didn't consider other options?, evidence proves that he did in fact consider other options
With Clark having rejected a proposed turning movement through the mountains to the north of Monte Cassino, he had no alternative but to mount a frontal attack.


output counts not input Do you apply that theory to your own country's performance in WW2.........

Musashi wrote,

Polish soldiers seized [or "took" if you wish] the monastery on May 18th 1944. Therefore it can't be considered a battle won by Germans. Polish commander of II Corps congratulated German Fallschirmjaegers the fierce defence

Try reading the article I posted again. I was refering to the battle for the township of Cassino which the Polish played no part in.

I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.

Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.

National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.

Musashi
12-23-2004, 06:19 PM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:

Herrmannek
12-23-2004, 07:00 PM
Defence of Poland in 1939 actualy was fukup(unavoidable but still), of course in best cavalery style we are born with but still fukkup... Such fukkups we call "Moral Victories" :)

b.scheller
12-23-2004, 07:03 PM
Defence of Poland in 1939 actualy was fukup(unavoidable but still), of course in best cavalery style we are born with but still fukkup... Such fukkups we call "Moral Victories" :)

:lol: Hubal kicked ass with his cavalry charge on a halftrack

Catch22
12-23-2004, 09:41 PM
Uh-oh I was just affraid that Ngati is in his bad mood. He can be very unplesant "when he intends to". p-)

As for our lost campagin in 39' I'd say - compare it to polish - soviet war in 1920, which was technologically, tactically much into the previous era of warfare. We were simply unable technologically and logistically to withstand german invasion in 1939. Add that to russian backstab and our allies unwillingness to act and you get the picture.
Marmot put it right in my opinion - we had 20 years to rebuild our integrity and regain power but in the meanwhile we had one nice soviet invasion and small scale civil war in 1926. We were quite busy folk those days.

machupichu
12-23-2004, 09:56 PM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

EvanL
12-23-2004, 10:29 PM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:
Ignorant enough to forget Canadians.

Johnny_H02
12-23-2004, 11:31 PM
well today in history I believe Canadians were attacking Ortona Italy also occupied from dug in determined and highly motivated Fallschirmjagers.

EvanL
12-23-2004, 11:34 PM
well today in history I believe Canadians were attacking Ortona Italy also occupied from dug in determined and highly motivated Fallschirmjagers.
You get a cookie.

Johnny_H02
12-24-2004, 12:41 AM
*eats cookie .. thx

Had to make sure Canada got thiers today, all this talk of monte cassino when well this day 60 years ago the 1st Canadian division was slugging it out in another part of italy through christmas day.

b.scheller
12-24-2004, 02:22 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

actually they do...the Polish mob is known world wide for the most car theft exports...but you can't blame a whole population on the acts of few.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-24-2004, 03:42 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

watch over your car, wannabe German.

Just a friendly advise...

p-)

donnergott
12-24-2004, 04:51 AM
heroic polish cavalery

http://img144.exs.cx/img144/5584/dp10-39.jpg


i wonder that polish soldiers fight for their traitors.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-24-2004, 05:00 AM
:cantbeli:
Jesus, cavalry charging on German tanks, again...


German propaganda: Most known is the cavalry 'charge' on 1.September 1939 in the area of the 'passage' between Pommern and Danzig. What really happenend was that two squadrons of the 18th Polish Lancer Regiment, under instruction of Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz tried to surprise a German infantry unit (belonging to German 20th Motorised Infantry Division). By late afternoon, with a company of tankettes of the 81st Armoured Troop the 18th Lancers were holding the most northern Polish positions near Chojnice while the remainder of the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade fell back southward. The Regimental Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz had already sought permission to fall back across the Bzura River, which was in his rear to a more easily defendable and less risky position. Permission had been refused. By late afternoon Mastelarz decided he had no choice but to take some sort of active initiative on his own. Abandoning the broken down tankettes he mounted half his men giving him a force of less than two normal line squadrons. He aimed to outflank German infantry positions and take them from the rear. At about 7 P.M. the Poles came across German infantry in a forest clearing. Determined upon a surprise attack Mastelarz swept into the clearing with a mounted sabre charge that annihilated the German units. The Poles chased the German infantrymen in the gallopp, when a German armoured car unit (and possibly Panzer I), which had arrived on the scene. The German vehicles emerged around the corner (left hand side of the area being charged were some woods which took a left hand curve). Colonel Mastelarz then had two possibilities: stop the attack and turn and make flight - and being shot to pieces by the automatic cannons of the German vehicles (or tank machine guns)before getting out of shooting distance. Or head straight for the tanks and disappear between them (and thus put the Germans at risk, mutually to shoot themselves) and finallly into forest area. Mastelarz decided for the second possibility. Bystanders could take this as a cavalry charge. In truth it was a desperate, but ingenious escape attempt. The Germans were so surprised of the sight of the 'charging' cavalry that they hardly fired. Colonel Mastelarz actually succeeded in saving his units. 20 men were lost. On the next day Italian reporters visited the place of the happening, where German officers told them, on the basis the dead cavallerists, of the 'antiquated and helpless' charge. A myth was born. This report was then taken up and cannibalized by the German propaganda machinery, in order to support the alleged 'inferiority of the slawic race' (tenor: 'only mentally inferior races are so thick as a brick to attack tanks with sword and lance'). Also wanting to demonstrate a Polish military recklessness and foolishness. Far from the truth.

btw. what traitors do you mean?

Heinzi
12-24-2004, 05:29 AM
I can recommend this book about MC

Cassino, the hollow victory by John Ellis

With many charts, maps and an complete order of battle.
ISBN 1854109162

plodey
12-24-2004, 05:51 AM
I bought this book when I was in NZ. Cassino: New Zealand Soldiers in the Battle for Italy by Tony Williams (Penguin Books, 2002)

a few scans (the book is a fantastic read).

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino1.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino2.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino3.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino4.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino5.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino6.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino7.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/war/cassino8.jpg

RIP my kiwi brothers.

plodey
12-24-2004, 06:15 AM
My friends make a mod "Monte Cassino" for Close Combat IV.
There will be Polish and German soldiers only. We are looking for photos of German Fallschirmjaegers to make suitable icons.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/cassino9.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/plod/cassino10.jpg

from Storming Eagles: German Airborne Forces in World War II - James Lucas (Cassell Military Paperbacks).

Musashi
12-24-2004, 06:30 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

Musashi
12-24-2004, 06:35 AM
I know you will find this difficult to believe but Poland was not the only country involved in the battle for Monte Cassino.
Do you really consider me an ignorant?
I know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.



Not by far.

How successful do you think your forces would have been if they'd attacked first, before the three weeks of attacks by the US 5th Corps or the six weeks of attacks by the New Zealand Corps?

Would it have been possibly for Polish units to occupy the monastery without the flanking manoeuvre by the 5th and 8th Army's?

Of course not.
I completely agree with you.



National pride is one thing, blind ignorance coupled with arrogance just leads to humiliation.

No 'one' country won the battle for Monte Cassino. To insist otherwise is monumental conceit.
I did not write "Poles won the battle of Monte Cassino". I wrote they had taken the monastery, OK??? :cantbeli:
Ignorant enough to forget Canadians.
Sorry, I didn't know about Canadians :oops:
Now I'll remember :)

plodey
12-24-2004, 06:43 AM
and you forgot the Indians on your list ;)

1/2 Gurkhas
1/6 Rajputana Rifles
1/9th Gurkhas
4th Indian Division
4/16 Punjabis
4/6 Rajputana Rifles
5 Brigade
7 Indian Brigade
8 Indian Division
Indian Pioneers Corp


oh and I think the Morrocans were there (2nd Moroccans).

donnergott
12-24-2004, 06:49 AM
use google picture search. there are a lots of pictures about german paratroopers. the books by osprey are also very good. look at emule or other p2p programes. there are pdf-versions of these books.

what traitors i mean ?

england and french for example.
nobody can tell me that they doesn´t know, what would happen, when they visit germany for conferece in munich.

perdurabo
12-24-2004, 06:54 AM
poles are the worlds greatest warriors. they have the bravest men and they do not steal cars!

actually they do...the Polish mob is known world wide for the most car theft exports...but you can't blame a whole population on the acts of few.
few months ago our police cought car thiefs gang with germans and french and some duch in it in Szczecin our police was amused because they where stealing cars in Poland to send them to France and Germany rofl rofl rofl

roland
12-24-2004, 07:25 AM
oh and I think the Morrocans were there (2nd Moroccans).
:cantbeli:

from the link I've already gave: http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/Monte3.htm

Order of Battle--Allies

British 8th Army
British X Corps
British XIII Corps
British 4th Infantry Division
British 78th Infantry Division
Indian 8th Infantry Division
British 6th Armoured Division
(British I Guards Brigade and Canadian I Brigade)
Polish 2nd Corps
3rd Carpathian Division
5th Kressowa Division

Reserves--(1) Canadian I Corps and (2) South African 6th Armoured Division)

Allied 15th Army Group
American 5th Army

French Expeditionary Corps: General Juin
French I Infantry Division
Moroccan 2nd Infantry Division
Algerian 3rd Infantry Division
Moroccan 4th Mountain Division
(Three Tabors, Goumiers, and one armoured brigade)

U.S. II Corps
U.S. 88th Division
U.S. 85th Division
Reserves--U.S. 36th Division

And by the way:

Order of Battle--German

LI Mountain Corps
5th Mountain Division
44th Infantry Division
(Hoch und Deutschmeister)
1st Parachute Division
Bode Battle Group
XIV Panzer Corps
71st Infantry Division
94th Infantry Division
15th Panzer Grenadier Division
(Corps Reserve)

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-24-2004, 10:44 PM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....

Marmot1
12-25-2004, 05:56 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

How advanced is this mod? any website?

Musashi
12-25-2004, 06:49 AM
Thank you Plodey. I need more pics :)

How advanced is this mod? any website?
In Polish. Building English WWW site is underway.
http://jagdtiger.mm.pl/forum/viewforum.php?f=55

Olybrius
12-25-2004, 08:21 AM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....



Concluding Comments
The Algerians and Moroccans of the French Expeditionary Corps were the troops most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino.

Zorro C9
12-25-2004, 08:56 AM
Oh will you lot stop e wanking over it?

perdurabo
12-25-2004, 09:16 AM
our fathers did great team job so can we not argue about it?

Cpt Willard
12-25-2004, 11:51 AM
After battle allied had chance to cut off german forces and the real f**k up was Clark's decision to go straight to Rome. :bash:

roland
12-26-2004, 06:27 PM
Roland wrote,

There is Anglo/American bull***** all over the web about this battle.
Fighters of every nation did there duty and well, but the fact is that it's the French Expeditionary Corp in Italy that are the most directly responsible for making the decisive breakthrough, which led to the German decision to withdraw from Monte Cassino and lead to the final victory.
I know that's not the "official" Anglo version and even I'm quite sure we'll find some moron jocking about French, but it's simply the truth and the Germans agree with that.

A breathtaking display of grandstanding, but as the article you posted points out;
At 1:00 am, the Polish 2nd Corps north-west of Cassino, the French Expeditionary Corps in the Auruncian Mountains, and the Americans in the coastal sector all advance to the attack.
At daybreak, swarms of fighter-bombers drop high explosives over their targets. The German Tenth Army headquarters in Avezzano, as well as the XIV Corps headquarters, are both buried under a carpet of bombs., therefore the fact is that the battle of Monte Cassino was an exercise in co-operation with no one countries forces directly responsible for the outcome.
Quite simply, the French Expeditionary Corps could not possibly have conducted the operation on its own and neither could any other force have done so.

Anyone who says otherwise is, well, a 'moron'....

I agree with that 100%





.....
hey aren't you suggesting I've said the contrary ? comon the French Expeditionary Corps was almost all equipped and supplied by Uncle Sam ! (eternal greeting for that and other things Uncle Sam ;) )
So ok, I do NOT qualify for your moron club there.
.. as you do NOT qualify for my moron club either as nobody in this thread, I'm pleased to notice :)

Well there is an other category of morons, it's those who say you're ungratefull or wanker when you just try to correct historic fact as they are presented. French and British would understand what I mean when we try to correct the Americans when they speak of WWI and even WWII.
But here, I'm sorry, but the "official" Anglo / American presentation of the fourth battle of Monte Cassino is obviously unfair for the French and it's not "wanking" to say that.
Her it is, found on Wikipedia but you can find it all over the web. Compare it with the most accurate version I've given and you can have an idea of what is "biased history"


The so-called Fourth Battle of Monte Cassino was fought by the 2nd Polish Corps under General Wladyslaw Anders (May 11-May 19). The first assault (May 11-May 12) brought heavy losses but also allowed the British 8th Army under General Sir Oliver Leese to break through German lines in the Liri river valley below the monastery.

The second assault (May 17-May 19), carried out at immense cost by the Polish troops with the aid of a force under French fatigues of Morroccan hill tribesmen used for mountain warfare, pushed the German 1st Parachute Division out of its positions on the hills surrounding the monastery and almost surrounded them. In the early morning of May 18 a reconnaissance group of Polish 12th Podolian Uhlans Regiment occupied the ruins of the monastry after it was evacuated by the Germans.

The capture of Monte Cassino allowed the British and American divisions to begin the advance on Rome, which fell on June 4, 1944 just two days before the Normandy invasion.

I've noted this one: "French fatigues of Morroccan hill tribesmen " :cantbeli: :roll:

FDF_Hemppis
12-26-2004, 08:18 PM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

Marmot1
12-26-2004, 10:46 PM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

I was always sure that in this war Finns fought on Finnish side (with little germn aid) I never personally counted Finns as part of axis and probably neither Alies did. Since I didn't hear about any Alied actions against Finns...

Hakkapeliitta
12-27-2004, 10:56 AM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

I was always sure that in this war Finns fought on Finnish side (with little germn aid) I never personally counted Finns as part of axis and probably neither Alies did. Since I didn't hear about any Alied actions against Finns...

Britain declared war on us in 1941. Stalin wanted it as a proof that Britain was on the same side with them.

Damn Britain! :fork:

Hullebullen
12-27-2004, 11:34 AM
Well, if they are heroes or not, can be discussed in an own thread. In my opinion noone who fought on the germand side in this war can be called hero. "Brave", yes; "hero" no!

Not even some of the Finns? :|

Of course they are heroes (the Finns, I mean)!

sheroo
12-27-2004, 11:48 AM
This is a great website to read about the the Role of the Indian Army in Italy
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS/library/Tiger/triumphsTC.html

for monte cassino specifically click here
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS/library/Tiger/triumphs02.html#section2


THE STORY OF THREE GREAT DIVISIONS IN ITALY

PUBLISHED BY
HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE
FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
1946
I HAVE HAD THE DISTINCTION OF HAVING UNDER MY COMMAND A TRIO OF GREAT INDIAN DIVISIONS---THE FOURTH, EIGHTH AND TENTH ---WHOSE FIGHTING RECORD IN ITALY IS A SPLENDID ONE.

"The achievements in combat of these Indian soldiers are noteworthy. They have carried on successfully in grim and bloody fighting against a tenacious enemy helped by terrain particularly favourable for defence. No obstacle has succeeded in delaying these Indian troops for long or in lowering their high morale or fighting spirit.

"They are well led, these Three Divisions. Each of the Divisional Commanders at one time commanded a battalion of an Indian Infantry Regiment in combat. These Divisional Commanders came up the hard way.

"Your 'Jawan' and 'Tommy Atkins' and 'Jock' and other soldiers of this international 15th Army Group have established firm bonds of friendship and respect born in action against a tough enemy. The bravery of Indian troops is attested by the Battle Honours and Decorations awarded.

"The Fourth, Eighth and Tenth Indian Divisions will forever be associated with the fighting for Cassino, the capture of Rome, the Arno Valley, the liberation of Florence and the breaking of the Gothic Line.

"I salute the brave soldiers of these Three Great Indian Divisions."

FEBRUARY 27TH, 1945.
FIFTEENTH ARMY GROUP, ITALY.

aeternum
12-27-2004, 12:13 PM
few months ago our police cought car thiefs gang with germans and french and some duch in it in Szczecin our police was amused because they where stealing cars in Poland to send them to France and Germany rofl rofl rofl

Just to steal them "back"...

kenshiroIT
12-28-2004, 08:11 AM
know about involvement in this battle of:
American,
British,
Polish,
French,
New Zealand,
Ghurka,
Maori soldiers
as well as American Japanese volunteers.

and Italians volunteers ;)

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 08:44 AM
Why were Indians fighting for a country who had colonized their land? :|

sheroo
12-28-2004, 10:40 AM
Why were Indians fighting for a country who had colonized their land? :|

:lol:
That question always brings a smile to my face
For an answer to that u will have to read the history of India from the 1700s
In Brief when the brits came to India they were a land of 100+ little kindoms. and u also have to consider the entire land mass i.e pakistan, India Banladesh and sri lanka known as ceylon at that time. by the time of the 1st world war the entire region was controlled by the english as well (directly or indirectly)............................

if you are more interested I can give u some good links for starters try "Freedom at Midnight" by dominique lapierre and larry collins. Even though it is about the final days of the british rule or the RAj as it was known it does have a good historical background in it.

machupichu
12-28-2004, 11:29 AM
sheroo what is your point? you think the indians "owe" the brits so they went to war for them?

sheroo
12-28-2004, 12:27 PM
sheroo what is your point? you think the indians "owe" the brits so they went to war for them?

Nope :bash: :bash:

just giving a starters.
But I must admit I did forget to add something important. Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler. I believe in the early part of the war there was a deal struck b/w the Indian National Congress and the British for complete Independence in exchange for Indian support during the war. A deal which many believed the british never meant to keep but due to the economics of the post war era they did have to keep.

oldsoak
12-28-2004, 01:03 PM
The Indian soldier who fought alongside the allies was definitely a brave and tough soldier and they deserve a lot more recognition of the part they played in WWII than they got by the British or Indian governments.

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:08 PM
It seems that some Indians didn't think this way:

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/7366/indien2.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/5834/mnzs_5991_15.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/8940/mnzs_6605_2.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/4820/picture35.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/8843/picture36.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/859/picture37.jpg

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:13 PM
Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler.

Btw, a Gandhi's quote about the black people when he was still in South Afrika:


The raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and *****ness.

BigBaribal
12-28-2004, 01:39 PM
After the battle:

http://img59.exs.cx/img59/944/EUR-4-2-1944.jpg

sheroo
12-28-2004, 01:40 PM
Gandhi did not like the concept of Nazisim or Racial Supremacy so he was against Hitler.

Btw, a Gandhi's quote about the black people when he was still in South Afrika:


The raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and *****ness.

Interesting!! where did you get the quote from. Gandhi did have a directness to him. But a thing to be noted

When he had gone to south africa as a "barrister" or lawyer he considered himself a refined englishman. It was only after he was at the receiving end of racial seggregation did his views change. He is higly regarded for his work after that and not before.

Some of views were also not favorably taken by many Indians specially when he insisted that the newly formed Indian govt release half of all federal assests to help create pakistan (even though he was against the creation of Pak in the first place)

sheroo
12-28-2004, 01:44 PM
It seems that some Indians didn't think this way:

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/7366/indien2.jpg



Most of these guys were POWs and were promised Independent India etc. But I believe they were never trusted completely by the german army to actually deploy them for combat

Millen
12-28-2004, 01:49 PM
that also the version that i hear about these man

wholagun
12-28-2004, 02:01 PM
i once knew a Polish veteran of Monte Cassino, however he died last night. One tell he was telling me how the Americans flew in and airdroped American Brandy. The Poles drank the Brandy and then took the objective. From that point on the only purchased American Brandy. It was a great moral buster he said, and he remained loyal to to the end as a result.

donnergott
12-28-2004, 03:19 PM
they had to be drunken to fight against the "grüne teufel" ?
the french foreighn legioneers were drunken too, when they fought against general dietls " blumenteufel" at narvik.

fantassin
12-28-2004, 04:28 PM
That's the good thing about the Waffen SS, there is a skeleton in most of europeans and a few other countries cupboard thanks to them...

from: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

Arab Nations

Deutsche-Arabische Bataillon Nr 845

Deutsche-Arabische Lehr Abteilung

Albania

21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg (albanische Nr. 1)

Belorussia - See Soviet Union


Belgium

27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Langemarck (flämische Nr. 1)

28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Wallonien

SS-Freiwilligen Legion Flandern

SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest

SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck

6. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck

5. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Wallonien

SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Flandern

SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien

Wallonisches-Infanterie Bataillon 373
*
Bulgaria

Waffen-Grenadier Regiment der SS (bulgarisches Nr 1)

Croatia

17. Air Force Company

369. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

373. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

392. (Kroatische) Infanterie-Division

Croatian Air Force Legion

Croatian Air Force Training Wing

Croatian Anti-Aircraft Legions

Croatian Legion

Croatian Naval Legion

13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr. 1)

23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Kama (kroatische Nr. 2)

Denmark

Danish volunteers in Waffen-SS

Freikorps Danmark (Frikorps Danmark)

Estonia

Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

3. Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

Estnische SS-Legion

20. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr. 1)


Finland

Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS

France

Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment

Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade

Légion des Volontaires Français (LVF)

Légion Tricolore - See Légion des Volontaires Français

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr.1)

33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1)


Great Britain

Britisches Freikorps*(British Free Corps)


Hungary

22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Maria Theresa

1. Ungarische-SS-Schi-Bataillon

1. Ungarische SS-Sturmjäger Regiment

25. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hunyadi (ungarische Nr. 1)

26. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)

33. Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarnische Nr. 3)

Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 25

Waffen-Schi Bataillon der SS 26

India

Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS

Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische) (Legion Freies Indien)


Ireland

Irish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Italy

Italienische-Freiwilligen-Legion

Karstwehr-Bataillon

Karstwehr-Kompanie

1. Sturm-Brigade Italienische Freiwilligen-Legion

Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger)Brigade der SS

24. Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjäger-)Division der SS

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (italienische Nr. 1)

29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr. 1)

Latvia

Lettische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade

2. Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Brigade

Lettische SS-Freiwilligen Legion

15. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr. 1)

19. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettisches Nr. 2)

Netherlands

Landstorm Nederland - See SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland

SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Brigade Landstorm Nederland

SS-Freiwilligen-Legion Niederlande

SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland

4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland

34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1)

SS-Freiwilligen-Standarte Nordwest

SS-Freiwilligen-Verband Niederlande

SS-Grenadier-Regiment 1 Landstorm Nederland

Norway

Freiwilligen Legion Norwegen (Den Norske Legion)

SS-Schijäger Bataillon Norwegen (Skijegerbataljon Norge)

Romania

Romanian volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 1)

Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment der SS (rumänisches Nr 2)

Russia - See Soviet Union

Serbia and Montenegro

Polizei-Selbstschutz-Regiment Sandschak

Serbisches Freilligen Korps der SS

Spain

Esquadron Azul

250. Infanterie-Division (División Azul)

Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101

Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 102

Soviet Union

Armenische Legion

Azerbajdzansche Legion

Böhler-Brigade

Freiwilligen-Stamm-Division

Georgische Legion

162. (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division

600. (Russische) Infanterie-Division

650. (Russische) Infanterie-Division

Kalmücken-Kavallerie-Korps - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kalmücken-Legion - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll

Kaminski Brigade - See RONA

Kaukasischer Waffen-Verband der SS

Nordkaukasische Legion

Osttürkischen Waffen-Verbände der SS

Russkaya Ovsoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armija (RONA)

Sonderverband Bergmann

Tataren-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS

Turkestanische Legion

Waffen-Gebirgs-Brigade der SS (tatarische Nr. 1)

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (weißruthenische Nr. 1)

14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr. 1)

29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 1)

30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weissruthenische Nr. 1)

Waffen-Sturm-Brigade Kaminski - See RONA

Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA*- See RONA

Wolgatatarische Legion

Sweden

Swedish volunteers in the Waffen-SS

Ukraine - See Soviet Union

White Russia - See Soviet Union

USA

US volunteers in the Waffen-SS


and probably a few others too.....

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-28-2004, 08:43 PM
mack pl wrote,

Kiwi-"You are moron, you couldnt win without us"

*sigh*

Next time i'll use crayons, then you might get it.

duck
12-28-2004, 11:17 PM
they had to be drunken to fight against the "grüne teufel" ?
the french foreighn legioneers were drunken too, when they fought against general dietls " blumenteufel" at narvik.

Well, you must know that the German Army and the Waffen-SS were pioneers in the dosage of Pervitin (Amphetamin/"Speed") to their troops. Many of the "Gruene Teufel" must have been hallucinating drug addicts by that time. p-) But no wonder in a military where several leaders were addicted to a variety of substances ranging from Cocaine (Goering, Goebbels) to Ophiates (The moustached corporal).

"Kraft durch Drogen" ;)

mack pl
12-29-2004, 03:47 AM
mack pl wrote,

Kiwi-"You are moron, you couldnt win without us"

*sigh*

Next time i'll use crayons, then you might get it.

yeah, whatever :roll:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-29-2004, 03:08 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.

fantassin
12-29-2004, 03:38 PM
Quoting from General Mark Clark's autobiography, he describes how the FEC (French Expeditionary Corps) broke through the GUSTAV Line in May of 1944.


*** "Meantime, the French forces had crossed the Garigliano (River) and moved forward into the mountainous terrain lying south of the Liri River.* It was not easy.* As always, the German veterans reacted strongly and there was bitter fighting. The French surprised the enemy and quickly seized key terrain including Mounts Faito Cerasola and high ground near Castelforte.* The 1st Motorized Division helped the 2nd Moroccan division take key Mount Girofano and then advanced rapidly north to S. Apollinare and S. Ambrogio.* In spite of the stiffening enemy resistance, the 2nd Moroccan Division penetrated the Gustave Line in less than two day’s fighting.
**** "The next 48 hours on the French front were decisive.* The knife-wielding Goumiers swarmed over the hills, particularly at night, and General Juin’s entire force showed an aggressiveness hour after hour that the Germans could not withstand.* Cerasola, San Giogrio, Mt. D’Oro, Ausonia and Esperia were seized in one of the most brilliant and daring advances of the war in Italy, and by May 16 the French Expeditionary Corps had thrust forward some ten miles on their left flank to Mount Revole, with the remainder of their front slanting back somewhat to keep contact with the British 8th Army.
*** "For this performance, which was to be a key to the success of the entire drive on Rome, I shall always be a grateful admirer of General Juin and his magnificent FEC."
(and a little further)
*** "The 8th Army’s delay made Juin’s task more difficult, because he was moving forward so rapidly that his right flank---adjacent to the British---constantly was exposed to counter-attacks".

mack pl
12-29-2004, 05:46 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.

I love New Zealanders, really :D Respect for your participation in WW II, really :D


Im drunk, but Im honest dude... :P

edit
:oops: :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-29-2004, 06:49 PM
I don't think much of Clark. The man was an incompetent publicity whore.

But lets hear what the French themselves have to say about it.

On the 23rd Clark had asked General Alphonse Juin, the commander of the Free French who were on the right flank of the 43rd Division, to forestall their wheeling attack towards the village of Atina about thirteen kilometres directly to the north of Monte Cassino, and attack instead the Belvedere/Abate Massif several kilometres further to the south to pin back the German reserves that might be used against the Americans.
Juin considered it 'a mission which in other circumstances, I would have deemed impossible. It was not at all to my taste, involving as it did an attempt to outflank the enemy at close range rather than on a much wider arc of manoeuvre'

Juin,A La Campagne d'Italie, G. Victor, Paris, 1962, pp. 62-3.

Juin assigned the task of taking the Belvedere/Abate Massif to one of his Algerian Divisions. Its commander, General Joseph de Monsabert, was even more expressive of his disbeleif of the plan:

Storm Belvedere? who's dreamed up that one?Have they looked at it? You'd have to first cross two river the Rapido and the Secco, then smash through the Gustav line in the valley, and finally, all the time attacking the Bosche, climb more than 2000 feet over a bare rock pile, itself heavily fortified, that can be fired on from....Cifalco and the rest of the summits round that. It's pure wishful thinking! A crazy gamble, mon general

Chambe, R., Le Bataillon de Bevedere, Editions J'ai Lu, Paris, 1965, p 25.

Despite the strategic insanity of the situation, the French sgreed because they wanted to demonstrate their loyalty to the allies. Juins final remark to his officer was, 'it is a matter of honour".


Mack pl wrote,

Im drunk, but Im honest dude... :P

;)

roland
12-30-2004, 08:38 AM
I don't think much of Clark. The man was an incompetent publicity whore.

But lets hear what the French themselves have to say about it.

On the 23rd Clark had asked General Alphonse Juin, the commander of the Free French who were on the right flank of the 43rd Division, to forestall their wheeling attack towards the village of Atina about thirteen kilometres directly to the north of Monte Cassino, and attack instead the Belvedere/Abate Massif several kilometres further to the south to pin back the German reserves that might be used against the Americans.
Juin considered it 'a mission which in other circumstances, I would have deemed impossible. It was not at all to my taste, involving as it did an attempt to outflank the enemy at close range rather than on a much wider arc of manoeuvre'

Juin,A La Campagne d'Italie, G. Victor, Paris, 1962, pp. 62-3.

Juin assigned the task of taking the Belvedere/Abate Massif to one of his Algerian Divisions. Its commander, General Joseph de Monsabert, was even more expressive of his disbeleif of the plan:

Storm Belvedere? who's dreamed up that one?Have they looked at it? You'd have to first cross two river the Rapido and the Secco, then smash through the Gustav line in the valley, and finally, all the time attacking the Bosche, climb more than 2000 feet over a bare rock pile, itself heavily fortified, that can be fired on from....Cifalco and the rest of the summits round that. It's pure wishful thinking! A crazy gamble, mon general

Chambe, R., Le Bataillon de Bevedere, Editions J'ai Lu, Paris, 1965, p 25.

Despite the strategic insanity of the situation, the French sgreed because they wanted to demonstrate their loyalty to the allies. Juins final remark to his officer was, 'it is a matter of honour".


You know what you are talking about mate. Congrats.
But the "battle of Belvedere" was at the 2nd battle of Cassino. The real victory happened at the 4th battle.
Despite the mission was almost a suicide mission, they did it and punctured the Gustave line for the first time. Unfortunately the success wasn't exploited because of high command insanity :(
see http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/Monte1.htm

But the high loss weren't in vain as as the British and American high command started to consider this army at it's real value: one of the best army ever as they proved in the Provence disembarquement later, when they took Marseille, Toulon, marched to north at rocket speed and took almost 1/3 of Germany. A miracle considering how low we were 3 years before..

regards

machupichu
12-30-2004, 09:07 AM
the British and American high command started to consider this army at it's real value: one of the best army ever as they proved in the Provence disembarquement later, when they took Marseille, Toulon, marched to north at rocket speed and took almost 1/3 of Germany.
yeah.... they are the best of the best. they "took" 1/3 of germany and moved with lightning speed. im sure they would have defeated germany all alone.
interesting: those superhero stories only seem to appear when the enemy is already out of commission. what about '42? :lol:

roland
12-30-2004, 09:21 AM
yeah.... they are the best of the best.

you're exagerating. very good for sure.



they "took" 1/3 of germany

almost 1/3. I'll post some links if you want. tomorow.



and moved with lightning speed.

I've said "rocket" speed. That's an expression that means "very fast". That's the way they've gone up the Rhone valley while the Americans were marching at there right on the montain in the Napoleon road.



im sure they would have defeated germany all alone. :lol:
As I've already said they ware almost all equipped and supplied by uncle Sam. The planes were English and American too. I've never denied this was a team work. For Germany, at the end of the war, the French army was more than one million soldier.

Free French Forces September 1944: 560 000 soldiers
Free French Forces end 1944: 1 million soldiers
Free French Forces May 1945: 1 250 000 soldiers
(Total allied on the west front: 5 millions)

Sorry if I'm entousiast but that's just fact and I've never lowered the other allies role.

regards

roland
12-30-2004, 09:32 AM
what about '42? :lol: wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?

Musashi
12-30-2004, 12:33 PM
Just as well there are Poles like Musashi etc on this forum. It makes up for your short comings.
Kiwi, tell me what you mean exactly or send me a PM if you wish. But don't bash me much on my birthday :) ;)

machupichu
12-30-2004, 02:29 PM
what about '42? wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?
the problem with those seemingly exceptional and heroic performances of allied forces is that they only appear/increase exponentially after germanys capabilities were already consumed. several pack of wolves killing one injured lion is nothing to be TOO proud of, in my opinion.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 02:50 PM
Musashi wrote,

Kiwi, tell me what you mean exactly or send me a PM if you wish. But don't bash me much on my birthday

I was paying you a compliment. If I was bashing you you'd realise it, even taking the language barrier into account p-)

Happy birthday.

roland wrote,

But the "battle of Belvedere" was at the 2nd battle of Cassino. The real victory happened at the 4th battle.

Yes but the courage shown during that battle should still be remembered.

At 0700 on th 25th the French 9th company launched a spectacular attack on Point 470 to seal the Secco valley against counter attack. They managed to gain the position in the first crazy rush, until the Germans counter-attacked and drove them backwards. But the French commander captain Deneeordered a bayonet attack with the battle sry, 'this time men, we'll make it this time! Nobody stops for the wounded Forward charge!' Forward they went.
Denee was hit in the chest: his radio operator was also hit. Denee crawled across and started working the set; speaking in a gurgling whisper he said: Denee here...i'm wounded...about to take the objective...i'm handing over command to Lieutenant el Hadi...terribly difficult...don't worry, the 9th will make it...to the bitter end.
El Hadi now led the charge to the summit of those men- half the company-who were still on their feet. The second crazy charge made the summit. But they were driven off again. Again they took it, again the Germans conter-attacked and took it back. But with incredible persistence the French rallied. The gallant el Hadi stood holding his useless arm behind him (his whole forearm had been removed by a shell burst). Uncaring of that, el Hadiled his men upwards again. Just as he reached the summit he was hit in the chest by machine-gun fire. He shouted at the man beside him to fire the victory flare. As it shot into the sky, the courageous el Hadi dragged himself to his feet and shouted 'Vive la France'. Then he dropped dead.
So Juin's wish had been fufilled. There was no doubt that in executing an insane plan, the Frenchmen had indeed acted with immense courage and honour.

machupichu wrote,

yeah.... they are the best of the best. they "took" 1/3 of germany and moved with lightning speed. im sure they would have defeated germany all alone.
interesting: those superhero stories only seem to appear when the enemy is already out of commission. what about '42?

What country are you from?

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 02:56 PM
what about '42? wtf ? what are you insinuating ? can you repeat the question clearly please ?
the problem with those seemingly exceptional and heroic performances of allied forces is that they only appear/increase exponentially after germanys capabilities were already consumed. several pack of wolves killing one injured lion is nothing to be TOO proud of, in my opinion.

1. What about the Battle of Britain? Moscow? Stalingrad? El-Alamein? Battle of the Atlantic?
2. IIRC Germany started the WWII, attacking the Allies. So don't be so sorry for your "lion" :petting:

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 02:58 PM
What country are you from?

He's a wannabe German ;)

machupichu
12-30-2004, 03:22 PM
1. What about the Battle of Britain? Moscow? Stalingrad? El-Alamein? Battle of the Atlantic?
2. IIRC Germany started the WWII, attacking the Allies. So don't be so sorry for your "lion"
what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 04:05 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.

Freibier
12-30-2004, 04:07 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

Hullebullen
12-30-2004, 04:21 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.

Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

What? You up to something right now? Dibs on being Quisling here in Sweden if so...

Brzeczyszczykiewicz
12-30-2004, 04:23 PM
what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?

The Battle of Britain was finished long before the Barbarossa, and preparations for another seroius invasion operation would probably take more tha a year, so the question of German occupation of the Britain is more than arguable.
If Germany didn't attacked Soviet Union, what would be their target instead? Conquering the rest of Europe? Middle East?
It's impossible to say that Germany would won the WWII if they didn't attacked the SU, because we can only guess what the sides of the conflict would do in that case.


the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.

Most of them yes, but not all. El- Alamein battle was won only by the British 8th Army.
The point is that the Werhrmacht wasn't undefeatable, even during it's best years. Exapmle- Battle of Britain. Luftwaffe vs. RAF, both in full strenght, no other fronts or battles to distract the German forces. And they lost.
So you can't say that the Allied victories took place only then the German army was weak and distracted.


i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world.

From the military point of view- yes
From the moral- no.
Army had a lot of chances to get rid of Hitler and his team, but instead they chose to fight for his regime. That definitely isn't worth praising.

Musashi
12-30-2004, 04:28 PM
germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.
Because the other countries allowed Germany to rise from the ashes. What if they had not had such a whim? Did you think about it? I afraid, you did not. If you are not so stupid as I consider you, perharps you'll understand it SOMEDAY.
Remember, the number of whims that everybody has is always limited :)

roland
12-30-2004, 05:49 PM
Exapmle- Battle of Britain. Luftwaffe vs. RAF, both in full strenght, no other fronts or battles to distract the German forces. And they lost.

bad example: the Luftwaffe was exhausted after the battle of France:

Marshall Kesselring wrote:

"The uninterrupted battle of our air force beginning on May 13th had literally spent the personnel and the material. After three weeks of combat, the air force units had fallen to 50 and even 30% below their theoretical effectiveness."

Those airplanes shot down during the French campaign would be greatly missed by the Luftwaffe when Hitler decided to attack England, and it would be wrong to minimize the impact that the battle of France had on the battle of Britain which was to occur shortly thereafter.

also see http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1985/sep-oct/kirkland.html


On 10 May 1940, the operational units of the French Air Force committed to the Western Front were heavily outnumbered. The low rate of operations in the French Air Force compared to that of the Germans increased by a factor of four the French inferiority in the air during the first month of the battle. By mid-June, however, the Luftwaffe was exhausted. It had lost 40 percent of its aircraft. Its flyers had been operating above hostile territory without navigational aids and with the certainty of capture in the event their aircraft were disabled. The air and ground crews were working from captured fields at the end of lengthening supply lines. The French, on the other hand, had conducted much less intensive flight operations, were able to recover the crews of disabled aircraft, were falling back on their logistical bases, and were bringing new units on line with brand new aircraft every day. By 15 June, the French and German air forces were at approximate parity with about 2400 aircraft each, but the French were operating from their own turf, and they had the support of the RAF. Mastery of the air was there for the seizing, but on 17 June the French air staff began to order its units to fly to North Africa.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 06:35 PM
machupichu wrote,

what if operation barbarossa didnt take place and not canceled eastern nonagression pact?
the battles you mention feature whole countries and allied forces fighting selectively against german wehrmacht whos having its heeresgruppes deployed all over the continent, fighting multiple battles at one time.
i am sorry for the lion, because what wehrmacht achieved during that war is extraordinaire and still fascinates many people all over the world. germany fighting the world for the second time and always rising from the ashes like a phoenix, thats outstanding.

The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
Yeah, but we're always coming back and it always takes the whole world to win against us :P

'All that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing'-Edmund Burke.

It doesn't take the whole world to defeat you, its just that the majority of the world's countries felt a moral obligation to fight your tyranny and evil.

Your always coming back because your slow to learn. :roll:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 06:41 PM
The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
what a surprise that the combined world forces can defeat germany. you must be very intelligent to recognize this! :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 07:37 PM
The world banding together for a second time and beating Germany and the rest of the Axis once AGAIN, thats outstanding. Germany always going down in flames when it gets too full of itself, THATS outstanding.
what a surprise that the combined world forces can defeat germany. you must be very intelligent to recognize this! :lol:

What a surprise to see someone who doesn't understand, even with access to the wealth of factual information on the internet, that the Third Reich was beaten not by the rest of the world but by its own incompetence and ineptitude. The end result was inevitable, the combined world forces just helped it along that much faster.
You don't have to be very intelligent to recognize this.... :roll:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 07:44 PM
yes, who knows what made hitler attack russia so soon......
that was a very big mistake indeed.

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 07:51 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.

machupichu
12-30-2004, 08:15 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.
murdering and pillaging.... you dont know what youre talking about little african boy. :roll:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 08:26 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?


little african boy.

rofl

You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 08:45 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?
You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?
"murdering and pillaging" does not equal holocaust.
the "Deutchland uber alles" hymn does have a different semantic as well.


your indignant reply to my "african boy" term makes me think you are ashamed of your roots. very very sad that is. :oops:

duck
12-30-2004, 08:59 PM
So you deny the Holocaust ever took place?


little african boy.

rofl

You really are ignorant aren't you. Or maybe you're just channeling some complexes about supposedly inferior races. Shades of 'Deutchland uber allies' perhaps?

He is a very confused wannabe German. Don't make him feel to good by bolstering his illusions. ;)

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 09:04 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.

Pillage; To plunder.

Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.


your indignant reply to my "african boy" term makes me think you are ashamed of your roots. very very sad that is. :oops:

I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?

Absolutely tragic that is, in a pathetic kind of way. :oops:

machupichu
12-30-2004, 09:18 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.
Pillage; To plunder.
Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.
that is a nice definition. maybe you should use those standards on allied forces too then we will have more holocausts to celebrate! :woot:


I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?
the indignation expresses in your imputation i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority.

roland
12-30-2004, 09:44 PM
Yeah, but his biggest mistake was thinking the rest of the world would stand idly by whilst he murdered and pillaged his way across Europe.
murdering and pillaging.... you dont know what youre talking about little african boy. :roll:
murdering and pillaging: that's very accurate. african boy know what he is talking about here. You have a better definition of the Nazis ? Genocidaire regime is better ?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 10:21 PM
as i already said, if you complain about "murdering and pillaging" german army, you must keep those standards for the allies as well. and i doubt you would ever consider the Great Americans beeing "murdering and pillaging" warmongers. uhm..... wait a sec........ rofl

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 10:40 PM
Murder; intentional unlawful killing of human being by another.
Pillage; To plunder.
Both conducted on a wide scale by German forces in WW2. Including but not limited to the Holocaust.
that is a nice definition. maybe you should use those standards on allied forces too then we will have more holocausts to celebrate! :woot:


I fail to detect the indignation in my reply and I'm certainly not ashamed of my 'roots'. I am however increasingly amused by your apparently unending ignorance.
What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent? Perhaps its your need to view any who dissent with your warped understanding of the world as it was, and is, as 'untermensch'?
the indignation expresses in your imputation i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority.

So you believe the Holocaust should be celebrated then?

And you believe the Allies are as culpable for WW2 as the Germans are?

Interesting. You obviously suffer from some serious delusions.

How sad.

In a pathetic kind of way....

BTW your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;

the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority

I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.

machupichu
12-30-2004, 10:56 PM
your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;
the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority
I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.
seems you didnt get the sense at all, but thats not my fault - all words are used correctly. :lol:

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-30-2004, 11:22 PM
your last comment is completely nonsensical, even for you;
the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority
I know a thesaurus is a wonderful tool but to get the best results from one you really should use it properly, or you just look like a ****.
seems you didnt get the sense at all, but thats not my fault - all words are used correctly. :lol:

Oh, I see know. What you mean't to write was;

the indignation(the anger at supposed injustice) expresses(itself) in your imputation(blame, fault, attribute) (that) i would use that term as insult or way to show a racial inferiority

So it seems you didn't use the words correctly. But there's always potential for that when the ignorant begin to suffer from delusions of grandeur. :lol:

Anyway I've shown neither anger nor blame for your attempted ascription of me as an 'little african boy'. Why would I when your attribution is plainly based upon ignorance...

And you still haven't answered any of my questions;

'What country do you come from?'

'What leap of imagination led you to believe that I was born or raised on the African continent?'

'So you believe the Holocaust should be celebrated then?'

'And you believe the Allies are as culpable for WW2 as the Germans are?'

Is it that you don't want to answer them, or that you can't?

machupichu
12-30-2004, 11:44 PM
i see you finally got the sense out of that sentence. :P

should the holocaust be celebrated? it already gets celebrated. so called holocaust industry is a significant part of it.

allies as culpable as axis? provoking results in responsibility, most law systems know that principle, so the answer is yes

machupichu
12-31-2004, 08:01 AM
btw, you should not wait for me to make typos to base your argumentation on, thats kind of infantile. ;)

donnergott
12-31-2004, 08:25 AM
the "deutschlandlied" was written by heinrich heine in the time of the german revolution in 1848. in this time germany was splitted in hundreds of small states. the german people want to unite the county. thousands of students rise against their states and started a revolution. from this time came the "deutschlandlied" . incidentally notice heinrich heine was a jew.

attacking russia was a must for hitler, because fight against the bolschewism was his first statement of his politics. the majority of his supporters frightend of bolschewism overtake in europe.

hitler wasn´t resolute to terminate britain. he hopes it would give an peace agreement with britain. it was an strategic necessity to attack britain, otherwise it would becomes( what it becomes) an airplane carrier in front of his territory.

machupichu
12-31-2004, 02:37 PM
lol, you really made me laugh this time.

90% of your conclusions are even technically wrong, you should take some lessons on logic. ;)

i wont bother commenting on those silly statements of yours until someone taught you how to do the information->conclusion transformation correctly
rofl

Ngati Tumatauenga
12-31-2004, 04:51 PM
lol, you really made me laugh this time.

90% of your conclusions are even technically wrong, you should take some lessons on logic. ;)

i wont bother commenting on those silly statements of yours until someone taught you how to do the information->conclusion transformation correctly rofl

Well then you did comment on them didn't you.

Face it, you are simply incapable of constructing an even rudimentary argument with any facts what so ever to back your view up. You can't even answer a few simple questions, why?

Obviously like all small minded, pitiable, racist individuals in need of professional help you can't relinquish your deeply held bigotry because to do so would leave you bereft of an identity, no matter how damaged that it might be.

I pity you. :petting:

donnergott
01-04-2005, 11:54 AM
i wrote b****s***. the deutschlandlied was written by heinrich hoffmann von fallersleben.

plodey
01-04-2005, 09:00 PM
What the f*** does this have to do with Monte Cassino you hijackers!

Domen
09-16-2009, 07:39 PM
Joseph Klein, soldier of 1. Fallschirmjäger-Division (about combats near Monte Cassino in 1944):

"Poles were admirable. It really must be said, they were fearless soldiers - the most brave of all. As if they had some kind of external propulsion. It was on the edge of fanaticism."

Source - television statement of Joseph Klein for BBC from 2008 (part of "World War II Behind Closed Doors" documentary series).

Wally1967
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
What the f*** does this have to do with Monte Cassino you hijackers!

X 2

It's silly.