Protests... Send those idiots to Bagdad to test the MOAB !!! [Archive]

mhpoole

03-21-2003, 01:40 AM

Hello all,

I am new to the board, i would like to know what everyone thinks of all these protests that are going on. :fork: I live near portland, Oregon and i cant believe how someone could protest. To think they dont care if they cause havoc in the streets. I think they are just a bunch of idiots. They should all be arrested or better yet send them all to the front lines so they can appreciate their freedom. If i had to be downtown and they were around me i would think it would be justified to just run their ass over. I personally dont think the protests are really about the war, it seems alot of the protesters are just kids with nothing to do or want to cause damage to our city. In Oregon we have a Concealed Weapons Permit which means if your a good boy you can carry a loaded weapon which i am and i have a permit to do so. So would it be justified if my wife and baby were in the car and protesters swarmed the car and i feared for our safety? I think so and i dont think i would hesitate in the least to protect my family. :lol: :fork: I see the pictures on TV of people holding the flag upside down oh my god what the f*#k is wrong with them. :bash: They should all just be shot or removed from society and placed in a dark place. Just one mans opinion... GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS !!!

OzMan

03-21-2003, 02:10 AM

Totally agree. I hate these dumbass hippies who are talking down on America and living here at the same time. "Oh, I think Bush is a murderer", "No blood for oil", blah, blah, blah. I don't think I would make a very good cop because if I was ever called out for hats and bats I would probably go ape**** on some of these crowds. These people obviously don't see what Saddam has done to the people of Iraq and the surrounding countries. It's about time we went in there and got rid of him. I was relieved when we said screw it to the French and the Security Council and went in anyway. And then there's all of these people saying, "Oh, I want to go to Iraq to stop the genocide of the Iraqi people in our image". Well you know what, go ahead. Please. Quit wasting my space. Our troops will not think twice about erasing your anti-American ass off the face of the earth. Our troops put their lives on the line every day for these anti-war people and every other American. And these people are claiming the right to free speech and protest. And I support that, but when I see these thousands of protestors taking to the streets and destroying a McDonalds (in Paris, at least), or blocking intersections, or standing on MY FRONT YARD, that is when their rights stop and mine begin. I have been glued to the TV for the last two days now, getting only a few hours sleep last night, wondering what will happen next. And these protestors are too busy wasting their own time for a cause that won't do anything to be watching the war live and hearing about the thousands of Iraqi soldiers thinking about surrendering already, or the number of Iraqi casualties so far (less then 10 last I heard). They don't understand that America is not isolationist anymore and it is our duty to beat the **** out of people like Saddam Hussein. And I bet his pansy ass got lit up in that very first airstrike yesterday. Game over, red, white, and blue will soon fly over Baghdad and then all our troops will come back. And when they realize that Saddam fired an Al Samoud missile at troops this morning (a missile that was supposed to be destroyed), or that the Iraqis have been armed with chemical weapons (which they "don't have"), they will find all of the missing gray matter in their head. And then they try to go around and say, "This war is an attack on Muslims". Yeah, even though we are removing the guy who has killed more Muslims than anyone else on earth.

I just have one more thing to say to these anti-American Americans (I've said it before):

IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN AMERICA, THEN EITHER SHUT UP OR GET OUT.

God bless our troops, and God bless America.

Sulph8

03-21-2003, 02:31 AM

Right on!
I refer everyone to to an excelent article by Amir Taheri:
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/240

Print it and hand it out!

Midtown

03-21-2003, 03:05 AM

I cant stand these people, I have people picking fights with me for wearing an ARMY shirt and wearing woodland ripstop pants, I havent even enlisted yet, and these people start crap with me, it really pisses me off, these protesters are just trying to make themselves feel important by doing this crap. Im ready to show up with my Combat Helmet and start donking people with it.

Sulph8

03-21-2003, 06:47 AM

Its shocking the lack of respect these people have for the people fighting for THEM!!! This is a period in history when we should be united more than ever, yet all I see are heaps of stupid people fighting their own countries. Osama must be laughing. I think the west is extremely capable of dealing with the threats of terrorism and all these corrupt regimes if we all actually unite, coz I guarantee you there isnt any protests within Al Qaida or any other terrorist group for that matter.

front

03-21-2003, 09:51 AM

"So would it be justified if my wife and baby were in the car and protesters swarmed the car and i feared for our safety? I think so and i dont think i would hesitate in the least to protect my family."

You state in your post that you have a CCW permit. If that is so then you know that your hypothetical question which you posted (and quoted) above is nonsense.

Applicants for the CCW permits must prove to the relevant authorites that they are aware of the consequences of shooting another human being no matter what the circumstances. As our local Sheriff put it "You had BETTER be about to die yourself before you squeeze that trigger".

Simply "fearing" for your safety is not enough as you would know if you remember your CCW class.

I suggest you refresh your education.

" I see the pictures on TV of people holding the flag upside down"

The upside down flag is a symbol of distress. These people are in distress and they are showing it.

cheers

front

mhpoole

03-21-2003, 12:06 PM

Front,

Obviously you dont know what your talking about. If i fear for my life or the life of my family is in grave bodily harm the use of force is authorized. If a mob is trying to break into my car with my family in it you can bet there is going to be alot of dead bodies in the street. And i will empty every last round until there is no longer a threat to my family. Maybe you should brush up on your CCW class. The phrase is "if you feel your life or someone elses life is in grave bodily danger" Now what part of a big mob threatening your family do you not understand!! Why dont you go grab your hemp shirt and go bitch and complain about the war and freedom of speach that our troops gave their lives for. Makes me sick to my stomach, their should be some sort of way to identify these people so they cant blend into the masses. Believe me they wouldnt last long. Why do you think alot of them had their faces covered up? Bunch of cowards!

By the way im not talking about the peaceful protestors that just sit until they are arrested if they have nothing better to do than go to jail and waste taxpayer money well good for them those idiots will always be around. Im talking about those vandals that cause havoc in the streets. Those kids and trouble makers throwing acid on cars and trying to stop traffic. I think the police should treat them alot different once they vandalize property or try to block the streets. Then they are putting peoples lives at risk and should be delt with accordingly.

front

03-21-2003, 01:02 PM

You used the following words:

"So would it be justified if my wife and baby were in the car and protesters swarmed the car and i feared for our safety? I think so and i dont think i would hesitate in the least to protect my family."

You come on this public board which is for the discussion of military photographs and you rant and rave about peace/anti-war protestors and you expect people to take you seriously.

Fair enough. I took you seriously. My mistake I guess.

"If a mob is trying to break into my car with my family in it you can bet there is going to be alot of dead bodies in the street."

First of all... I doubt very much that a bunch of peace/anti-war protestors are going to "swarm" your car and threaten your life (and your family). I guess you have missed their point and I seriously wonder why you think that you specifically would be a target of a"wild savage anti-war mob coming to get me! Arggh!" type fantasy. I reckon you have a greater chance of going to the moon.

Anyway... second... if your car did get swarmed and you left a bunch of dead bodies in the street then you are going to have to do a lot of explaining to justify to a court why you felt that leaving a bunch of dead bodies in the street was the only option.

This is all hypothetical.

"Now what part of a big mob threatening your family do you not understand!! Why dont you go grab your hemp shirt and go bitch and complain about the war and freedom of speach that our troops gave their lives for."

Take it easy there. There is no "mob" threatening your family... or mine. I don't have a "hemp" shirt (hehe) and bitching and complaining about anything is just not my style.

In other words I don't waste my time bitching and complaining, not about the war, not about the troops, not about Bush, and certainly not publicly about a wild fantasy of a bunch of protestors swarming my car and threatening my family. Hahaha... :-)

cheers

front

papabear

03-21-2003, 01:44 PM

I think they are just a bunch of idiots. They should all be arrested or better yet send them all to the front lines so they can appreciate their freedom. If i had to be downtown and they were around me i would think it would be justified to just run their ass over. I personally dont think the protests are really about the war, it seems alot of the protesters are just kids with nothing to do or want to cause damage to our city.!

Are these the intended consequences of the Enlightenment and liberalism?

No one on the thread has argued for the ideals of liberalism--however, how would you respond to the argument that citizens have a responsibility to speak their mind? And that the exercise of the freedom of speech is one of the most important things any citizen can do, as citizen, in this country?

Afterall, our society is such that the assertion of opinion without understanding is encouraged, even rewarded, as the ideal. We may not like what they do or say, but wisdom and virtue is not easy for anyone to attain. The question is, do we have the wisdom and character to not only act well for ourselves, but for others?

The moral crisis facing our youth is one that has been carrying over from one generation to the next for quite a while now. Are we going to do what is necessary to "stem the tide" and to restore virtue to our society? Or will we continue to give our enemies cause for labelling us as a bunch of immoral hedonists who are only interested in pleasure and nothing more.

Perhaps military service and the reinstatement of the draft could be of benefit for our youth, but given the current state of our military, I doubt it. Just look at the Air Force academy scandal, the number of pregnancies and STDs and the endless number of examples. Our soldiers may be able to get the job done, but there are other virtues besides courage.

Sulph8

03-21-2003, 01:54 PM

I think what mhpoole is expressing is sort of an emotional impulse. It happened to me a little while ago when I was watching a news report about those protestors that went to Iraq to be human shields. I suddenly burst out "IF I WAS A MARINE I WOULD JUST SHOOT THOSE F*CKERS AND BURY THEM IN THE DESERT!!!". Now, of course I wouldent really do that. It was an expression of emotion rather than logic. Mabey thats whats happening here.

warchild1/27scout

03-21-2003, 02:56 PM

the emotions over for me and i still would throw these traitors in a shallow grave.i guess that's why i'm not in riot control.lol.hey they can express thier view and protest and i am free to give my view and call them traitors.it's a great country,huh.

Merik

03-21-2003, 03:03 PM

One of the protesting fools fell off the Golden Gate Bridge and died.How funny is that???I mean that by the fact that he fell while being a traitor.

Minjin

03-21-2003, 03:57 PM

Well my opinion on protests and such is this: I may not agree with their protesting (my personal opinion on the war has no bearing on this so I will omit it) BUT they have every right to protest. If you take that away, then you are taking away freedom, and hence taking away the very thing you are fighting to defend. So let them protest. If you don't like it, change the channel, walk away, start a pro-war counter protest.

A good example is a number of statements I have read on these boards and in the gallery comments. I disagree with a lot of them, but so long as they are not pure ignorance based on misinformation and lies, I respect opinions that go counter to my own. I may not agree, but I respect your right to your own opinion. I just ask you to inform yourself. Or, as a quote I once read states, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it."

And if you like quotes, here's a few that (at least kinda) apply. Maybe the demonstrators should consider some of them:

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. (John Stuart Mill)

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War has always been here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner. (Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf- George Orwell

"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." -Albert Einstein

"The noblest fate that a man can endure is to place his own mortal body between his loved home and the war's desolation" -Robert A. Heinlein

mhpoole

03-21-2003, 04:05 PM

Let me say again i dont have a problem with the peaceful protestors speaking their mind. I think they are just uneducated or dont really see the big picture. I would love to throw one of those people in a room with the family of a soldier who has lost his life for our country. Lets see if they still would feel the same way once they realize that someone has lost a loved one so that they could speak their mind.

Papabear,

What i do have a problem with is the people who think they have the right to try and shut down a city by causing caos thru out the streets and vandalizing anything they see. It costs the taxpayers money and could cost some poor person their life if an ambulance is trying to get thru the city or something of that nature. I think all of those people should be scooped up and thrown into the iraqi desert and let them hold up their peace signs there. Once the war starts there is nothing but harm that can come from these protests. Protestors have the right i guess, but when they infringe on other peoples rights then they are breaking the law and should be rounded up. Police should use rubber bullets, tear gas, riot straps, and use of force. Once the crowd is hostile all of these and more measures should be taken. And then they bitch that the police used force, this is exactly why i am not a cop, you cant win. I dont understand why they complain about our leaders. If you dont like it, get out, ill help your sorry ass pack.
Just remember if these people were doing this somewhere else they might get a bullet in the head and left to rot. Personally, if they cant understand why we are doing this then maybe its best if they would just help us out and do it themselves.

96B

03-21-2003, 04:50 PM

Bill Oreilly said it best on Fox News to one of these modern hippies.... a peaceful orderly legal protest is one thing, but what these people have been doing is causing much disruption in the normal everyday lives of good citizens and distracted law enforcement from doing their duty in protecting the American people. Thus these idiot protestors who are going about protest in violent, or disrupting ways and causing police to respond are just taking more police resources away from their duty of serving and protecting thus meaning these protestors are putting American civilians in danger. It is clear that if you have thousands of people blocking traffic, keeping people from going from point a to point b, and causing police to respond are themselves putting Americans in danger by taking resources away from the security operations ongoing to protect us from terrorists.

The war is already well underway, protesting isnt gonna help our boys over there any bit. Everybody should rally behind the troops and pray for their safety.

I yearn to see the response of all these protestors, countries who opposed the war, and hardcore anti war liberals once the Iraqi regime is knocked out, we find all these weapons of mass destruction that were denied to exist by not only Iraq but France and others, and once the Iraqi people welcome the new freedoms they will embrace and the new lives they can live and thank our men and women in uniform, and our great President Bush.

papabear

03-21-2003, 10:53 PM

Papabear,

What i do have a problem with is the people who think they have the right to try and shut down a city by causing caos thru out the streets and vandalizing anything they see. It costs the taxpayers money and could cost some poor person their life if an ambulance is trying to get thru the city or something of that nature. I think all of those people should be scooped up and thrown into the iraqi desert and let them hold up their peace signs there. Once the war starts there is nothing but harm that can come from these protests. Protestors have the right i guess, but when they infringe on other peoples rights then they are breaking the law and should be rounded up. Police should use rubber bullets, tear gas, riot straps, and use of force. Once the crowd is hostile all of these and more measures should be taken. And then they bitch that the police used force, this is exactly why i am not a cop, you cant win. I dont understand why they complain about our leaders. If you dont like it, get out, ill help your sorry ass pack.
Just remember if these people were doing this somewhere else they might get a bullet in the head and left to rot. Personally, if they cant understand why we are doing this then maybe its best if they would just help us out and do it themselves.

I agree with you as to the wrongness of their behavior--my point is that while we are concentrated on the war abroad, we shouldn't forget that there is a war at home, even if it is of a different kind, the kind that some like to call the cultural war, and this problem won't be taken care of by merely having our civil authorities enforce public order.

Of course, if we disagree that there is something like a cultural war going on, then that is another question we may have to discuss, but this may not be the proper forum for it.

OzMan

03-21-2003, 10:58 PM

These disgraces to American society will never realize that thepeace that they want is on its way. Yeah, that's great that you want peace. But you know what? So do we. But whining and bitching and complaining about it won't help. There are times (this being one of them) where you need to go in and slap some people around and kick some ass and throw some dumbass out of power to create peace. By standing in front of a tank and saying, "No war, just peace" ain't gonna help. They don't understand that there will ALWAYS be that element of greedy people on earth who want more than they have, and will go to great lengths to get it. And that is where we come in. They don't know that the violence over there has gone on right from the outset when this terrorist (yes, I'm calling Saddam a terrorist) siezed power. They cover their ears when they hear about the refugees leaving Iraq (1.5 million into Jordan during Desert Storm) because the living there is so horrible. They don't want to hear about the gold-lined palaces that Saddam has and the utter poverty that his people have. They don't care to hear about the thousands of Kurds killed in chemical gas attacks in the '80s. The come back and say, "We kill criminals in the gas chamber." Yeah, but look at it, they're criminals, and the Kurds are not.

The best news I heard all day was when I heard some dumbass threw himself off the Golden Gate Bridge. Thank God, one less idiot to worry about. Now if only he took some of his friends with him. And now the police can relax a little and go back to their assigned task of PREVENTING ANOTHER 9/11, not bagging some teenage punk wearing pink and holding a sign. As long as these protests are non-violent and peaceful, then I don't care what they do. But once they croud a street, or ambush a car, or destroy a restaraunt, or deter the defenders of this country both here and abroad from doing their jobs, then I just want to grab some tear gas and a bat and relieve some stress.

So for all of you anti-American Americans, here comes some peace for ya. Just wait about another week.

chickenhawk

03-23-2003, 04:08 AM

God bless America, but don't bless the other ones.

chickenhawk

03-23-2003, 04:09 AM

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

(1918) -- Theodor Roosevelt

Sulph8

03-23-2003, 05:06 AM

Hey does anyone think it might be possible to get some solidarity-with-the-troops demonstrations world wide? That would be great! I would go to every one! But do you think it could actually happen?

And chickenhawk: what the hell is with your adolf quote?!!? Take that sh*t down!

hood

03-23-2003, 05:21 AM

I see your quote and throw one back.

Concerning France: Winston Churchill QUOTATION: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile—hoping it will eat him last.

The problem is that this criticism of the president is purely political. And this has been said hundreds of times, where were all of these people when Clinton was doing the same thing during his 8 year stint? Where were the Hollywood actors criticizing his war mongering? The answer? No where. They didn't say a thing. They're not attacking the war, they're attacking the man, which is shameful and it's all based on a big lie. These people are holding up posters, promoting a tyrant who has slaughtered thousands and tortured endless amounts of people. Meanwhile everyone who actually managed to get out of Iraq is saying that these people are insane and that Saddam needs to be gotten rid of. I'm glad these protesters know better than the people in Iraq themselves. These protesters say "Not in my name!" .. The defected Iraqi's say the same thing about the protesters.

DPM95

03-23-2003, 08:50 AM

I agree with them. I'm sure as hell no hippie or pasifist. I believe that Sadaam has to go, but this war is ridiculous. Instead of waiting a little bit (Mr. Bush seems to have little time), the US decided to fight without support from the UN. This results in no UN humanitarian help, and undermine the function of the UN. Why the hell should other countries listen to the UN when you won't?

US isn't the "greatest beacon for freedom". The US is the "greatest beacon for capitalizm and own interest". You sure don't care about Saudi Arabia, a state where the word "freedom" doesn't exist. Why? Because you have oil interests here.

I respect the soldiers in Iraq right now for putting their lives on stake, but I don't respect mr. Bush and his socalled "War on terrorism". There is NO evidence of Sadaam supporting terrorists.

If you stopped watching CNN all the time, and took your time to see what is happening in the rest of the world because of this war, you might think twice about unconditionally accepting Bush and his lies. There are seldom "good guys" and "bad guys". The situation is more complex than that.

Wake up, when even Germany doesn't want to fight, maybe the time isn't right for war yet=)

front

03-23-2003, 11:23 AM

DPM95? This board is already enough of a flame-pit without you coming on here and pouring gasoline on the fire! :-)

It is interesting to read the posts of everyone on this board but gentlemen... before you respond to DPM95s post with a one or two line insult about him being "un-American" or "un-patriotic" (or whatever label is used this week to marginalise people) pause, stop, take a breath, read his post again and think a bit.

I do wish that people would limit their posts to discussion about military photos. I know I sound like a friggin' broken record but there are hundreds of other boards on the net where you can flame away at peace protestors and troll against the pro-Bush/pro-war supporters. It only takes one person to post a dissenting view on this board and it generates about twenty replies from the usual suspects with the usual rhetoric... the thread collapses and fade into the archives.

Dissent is patriotic.

Trolling is probably not.

DPM95 has a good point about watching CNN. Don't limit yourselves to one station and EVEN one country's view in this attack against Saddam Hussein if over 30 countries are also involved.

Have a read of the BBC (British) website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Also take a listen to NPRs feed of the BBC World Service if you can. I've been listening to it early every morning (they carry the feed through the small hours until about 7-8am EST). Good discussion from above average commentators.

cheers

front

David

03-23-2003, 11:40 AM

who cares if we have interests in iraq besides "liberating the people", how many things do you do without your own interests in mind?
There is NO evidence of Sadaam supporting terrorists.
you're an idiot. why am i wasting my time?

hood

03-23-2003, 11:53 AM

Besides the fact that you're flat out wrong.

Instead of waiting a little bit...

We've waited 12 years. Exactly how long are you supposed to wait through his deceit and lies before you take action. Clinton back in 1998 signed the Iraqi Liberation Act stating that he ultimately had the intention of doing exactly what Bush is doing now. The French said that they'd veto any resolution that would use military force. They showed the world that no matter what, at no point, no matter how much Saddam defied the world, they would veto any military action. Point being, your 'Instead of waiting a little bit to get UN backing for the action' is BS. At NO point would they have backed it.

This results in no UN humanitarian help,

The US provides the most humanitarian support in any action, so this won't effect anything that we don't have outside help.

There is NO evidence of Sadaam supporting terrorists.

He harbored Al Qaeda terrorists in Baghdad, and something that no one can refute, he paid money to Hamas terrorists to carry out suicide bombings and military actions against Israeli civilians. Your statement has been proven wrong time and time again, even by non-US people.

when even Germany doesn't want to fight

They don't want to fight because they can't afford it. Their country is in severe debt from the re-unification and they don't have any money to send our way if a UN backed measure was approved. Why do you think the US is the only country that does things because of alterior motives?

budanski

03-23-2003, 12:16 PM

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper

You guys really need to read this.

I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself....

.... We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."
(this paragraph pretty much summed up the whole article)

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/03/23/ixop.html) from the U.K. Telegraph.

DPM95

03-23-2003, 12:49 PM

What I meant with "more time" was to give the inspectors more than a few months to fulfill their task. If there are weapons of mass distruction in Iraq, let the inspectors do their job and find them. If US troops don't find these weapons during the war, the US, UK and other countries supporting this military action has a serious problem...

Chirac has been a serious stubborn asshole in the security council, but if the inspectors had actually found serious violations of the UN resolution he would be forced to not using his veto.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not an anti-american. Actually, Norway (where I'm from) has a tradition of great cooperation and support to the U.S. We have provided troops for Afghanistan, but in this war our government has officially announced that they are against it, but believe in a UN led war. Only one party in Norway officially support this war. My point is that you have to listen to what the rest of the world has to say. We don't believe this "war for freedom" anymore, and you Americans should ask yourself if whatever Bush says is true. There is a big difference between fighting for freedom, and fighting for own interests...

Zoomie

03-23-2003, 12:57 PM

DPM95- Tell me, how will you be able to find something when they keep moving it around and hiding it from the inspectors?

DPM95

03-23-2003, 01:13 PM

Sgt: Yes. I now it's hard to find stuff they move around. BUT, there is the juridical principle which says that you are innocent until the opposite is proved. And yet we have no proof of Iraq having all these B/C weapons.

According to this I could claim that you killed a guy, and I can't prove it because you have destroyed the evidence. I have to prove that you have actually killed another person.

The inspectors found the "illegal" Al-Samoud II rockets, and made Iraq deliver a report on how they destroyed VX gas after GW I.

When it comes to humanitarian help, I saw an Iraqi on TV (Not CNN=) telling the reporter that "I welcome US troops. But there is no food. My daughter hungry, my son hungry, my wife hungry. Where is the food and help? I see no help!" There have not been given food or medicine yet.

David

03-23-2003, 02:10 PM

no proof of iraq having the weapons they aren't supposed to, huh? then what do you call the missiles that they shot at us? and we have a **** load of food and medicine that we are going to give to the iraqis, excuse us if we're a little bit late delivering it after all it's not like we're at war or anything.

DPM95

03-23-2003, 03:12 PM

Conventional missiles for self-defence, approved by the UN. There is a difference between wapons and weapons of mass destruction.

Zoomie

03-23-2003, 03:15 PM

DPM95- Some of the ones that they launched were, a few weren't. They launched the illegal SCUDs.

chickenhawk

03-23-2003, 03:45 PM

the us is the biggest supporter of terrorists. we gave osama 3 billion in cia training and weapons, gave the taliban 245 million in aid, and gave saddam tanks, weapons and aid to kill iranians. the war on terror begins at home.

USA #1!!!

chickenhawk

03-23-2003, 03:47 PM

[/quote] And chickenhawk: what the hell is with your adolf quote?!!? Take that sh*t down![/quote]

Well the us is not a tyrant, we are liberators,

i think bush would agree with me there....

Ratamacue

03-23-2003, 06:09 PM

So you're comparing Bush to Adolf Hitler? Wow, that's very original, and even more accurate. Brava.

And in case you've noticed, we gave Osama Bin Laden weapons to defeat the Russians in Afghanistan. And we gave very little weapons to Iraq. Go look at how much they owe Russia (and by the way, we never gave them tanks. T72's are Russian, not American).

mhpoole

03-23-2003, 06:22 PM

DPM,

The sad thing is someone has to say when enough is enough. Obviously they have no intension of giving up those weapons. Its people like you that can get us all killed. Some people cannot be reasoned with, some people have no morals, some people have no value for human life. He torchers and kills his own people to stay in power. The UN hasnt been able to do it in 12 years why do you think a couple months would do anything? Its people like you who jumped on the band wagon about 12 years to late and have no idea what your talking about. A condition of the war comming to an end in 1991 was to get rid of his WMD! But since you joined the party late you probably think we just started trying to get rid of him. One think i cant stand is ignorance. :bash:

FallenAngel

03-23-2003, 06:37 PM

@ DMP95

what about those executions the Iraqis showed on international television. A US solider in a cell, a hole in his head and a pool of blood around him. They violated the Geneva convention.

He has ordered his troops to pretend to surrender, then open fire when US troops try to take them into custody.

Or the troops that dress as civilians, wait for the front line troops to pass through, then attack rear support elements? Saddam is making every Iraqi a suspected target by doing this.

What about the lighting of oil fields on fire? What about the missiles found in Iran of supposed Iraqi origion? What about the car bomb at the Kurdish checkpoint?

'course, some of this stuff happens in war anyways, but it can be limited. Saddam is encouraging this kind of warfare.

OzMan

03-23-2003, 07:08 PM

Since the coach put in Mr. DPM in the fourth quarter, let's fill him in:

1979: Saddam takes power

1980: Saddam sends four men to London to sieze the Iranian Embassy, posing as Iranians. Operation Nimrod follows, and we all know how that turned out
1980: Saddam invades Iran over control of the Shatt-Al-Arab, an eight year war insues and over 1 million people are killed

1988: Saddam orders use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the North (his own people), killing over 5000 people in a single day

1980's: Saddam starts nuclear weapons program
August 2, 1990: Saddam invades nieghboring Kuwait for control of their oil fields, "claiming it is theirs"

January, 1991: Acting under UN supervision, Coalition forces liberate Kuwait. But, Saddam orders the firing of SCUD missiles at Israel, killing nearly 100 people. Saddam also orders the sabotage of Kuwaiti oil wells, sparking a massive environmental disaster.

1990's: Saddam, attempting rebuild his destroyed defense forces (from nearly 1 million down to around 400,000), continues to develop nuclear, chemical, biological weapons (acting against UN sanctions set after Desert Storm). UN weapons inspectors are sent to Iraq, failing every time to receive complete cooperation from the Iraqi government.

2003: It all ends.

DPM95

03-23-2003, 07:14 PM

"The UN hasnt been able to do it in 12 years why do you think a couple months would do anything?"

mhpoole:

A couple of months could give the UN inspectors a chance to fulfill their task, force France into not using their veto, and therefore the war can be fought with international support (military as well as well as humanitarian) and first and foremost it will be a LEGITIMATE use of force.

What I can't stand is people who think that the US has the right to use force whenever they want. If you really are a beacon for peace and justice, you should at least let the UN decide whether the time is right for military action.

You can't deny the fact that the anti-war demonstrations world wide are there for a reason. You didn't see these kind of reactions when the UN decided to go to war in Afghanistan. Try to think WHY there are so many reactions right now.

Fallenangel: What is your point? Have I ever said that Sadaam is a good man? He is completely insane. A psycho who has ruled a country for 30 years and assasinated his opposition. He has showed the world that he doesn't give a **** about human rights.

I new you Americans would be pissed off because of my post, but I wanted to explain why so many people are rather upset these days.

mhpoole

03-23-2003, 07:31 PM

DPM,

Obviously you dont see the big picture. Its people like you that need a nuke (god forbid) to go off in your backyard before you understand the big picture. You know the worst part is, WE are the only ones that care about civilians, we take every precaution to try and avoid them. You know if we got invaded they would drop nuke after nuke into civilian places with no regard if they could. Thats what we are trying to stop !!! Maybe France got alittle wake up call when the cowardly turned their backs on the US after we saved them, if it wasnt for us they would be speaking german. The sad thing is they found RICIN in a subway in france even though they deal with the terrorists. Now they even look worse than cowards they look like idiots too!! Then they say well if chemical weapons are used we will help out. NO THANKS FRANCE keep your white flags at home. America and our allies will take care of it again!!

papabear

03-23-2003, 07:52 PM

What I can't stand is people who think that the US has the right to use force whenever they want. If you really are a beacon for peace and justice, you should at least let the UN decide whether the time is right for military action.

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but the UN in and of itself has no legitimate authority. The buck for determining whether a specific action to be taken is just or not stops with the sovereign authority at the national level.

front

03-23-2003, 08:15 PM

papabear is correct in the post about the UN. What follows below is a question put to Noam Chomsky and his answer from a Pakistan website (posted on Sunday 23rd).

Caution. Caution. Caution.

Noam Chomsky is an articulate, learned, and respected individual yet his views, and comments, will spark fires on this thread. Dissent is patriotic... pause, read the below paragraphs again when the hackles rise... do we agree with what he says? Maybe not.. but we take it easy.

"If the Bush administration proceeds with its war plans, along with a “coalition of the willing,” what will it mean for the future of the UN?

Like other questions, that’s really for us to decide. Speculation is pretty idle, if only because the answers will depend a lot on what we do inside the most powerful country in world history.

The UN has never been able to act beyond the limits imposed by the great powers, which means primarily the US. The current administration, in its Reaganite phase, announced very clearly and explicitly that the UN, the World Court, international law, and other institutions of world order are irrelevant unless they support Washington’s resort to violence. The State Department explained that since other countries do not agree with us, we will reserve to ourselves the decision as to what lies within the “domestic jurisdiction” of the US: in the specific case in question, Washington’s international terrorist campaign against Nicaragua. The Reaganites were not breaking entirely new ground of course, but this was an unusually brazen articulation of the reigning doctrine of contempt for anyone who gets in the way. The fact that all of this is wiped out of official history (and never reported at the time) doesn’t make it unreal.

If freedom and democracy were considered to be values by elite sectors here, all of this would be taught in elementary school. Pretty much the same political leadership is back in power, and in their current phase, they even more extreme and forthright in telling the world to get lost: either you authorize us to do what we want and remain “relevant,” or you refuse to do so, in which case we will do what we want anyway and you will be kicked into the ashcan of history. They could hardly be clearer, and it’s well understood around the world. Whether these clearly-announced plans could be implemented -that is for us to determine. There’s no point in speculation."

cheers

front

Ryan94

03-23-2003, 08:40 PM

I live in Germany, and here are so many idiots that protest... what they think they get if they prosted, that the coalation troops stop fighting? rofl
And these us and british soldiers there in Iraq give there lifes that the people who live in iraq can life a live without Saddam Hussein...

I don´t understand these f***ing guys who protest :bash: , but i´m thinking im the only guy who is for the troops in iraq...

Bye, Dave

warchild1/27scout

03-23-2003, 09:30 PM

more time?my god that is the sickest two words i've been hearing from france,saddam and tom dashle.everybody knew at the security council the u.s. could'nt keep 300,000 troops in the gulf for 3 more month's.so when they said more time what they meant was appease saddam.

papabear

03-24-2003, 01:16 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1196-2003Mar20.html

TacoDelRio

03-24-2003, 03:41 PM

Chickenhawk, I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when:

"Go to Hell, Chickenhawk, you ****ing pussy!"
-Abraham Lincoln, 1833

Hooah!

Fargin

03-24-2003, 05:11 PM

How are you going to promote democracy in Iraq, if you can't demonstrate on American streets?

hood

03-24-2003, 06:03 PM

They did... except for those who decided that they wanted to do criminal acts like shut down infrastructure and stop businesses from operating, they were left unimpeded. The problem that so many people have on here, is that so many of the people who go out there and march have no idea what they're talking about. You go and ask them, what's your solution to this instead of war, and they can't give you an answer. Their only message is that we must never use war, ever, for any reason. That's nice in fantasy land, but rather detached from reality. They should go to baghdad and protest Saddam's refusal to comply with the UN. God forbid they actually do something to help solve a problem instead of just complaining about the actions of our own government.

JiJoMacLE45

03-24-2003, 07:05 PM

I have no problem with people protesting, it is their right, but they need to realize that they are directly putting in jeoprady not only themselves, but the cities they are protesting in. This past weekend we have approximately 5,000 protesters march in my city. Not much when you consider the 100,000 people who turn in NYC or San Francisco, but in a city of 75,000 it was a considerable number. My police department numbers just under 300 men. We had to have over 100 from my department was well as over 100 more from state and county departments work overtime to cover this demonstration. That is two hundred cops off the street playing babysitter. Two hundred cops who will not be responding to assaults, or burglaries, or thefts, but standing around waiting for these people to go home. One third of my department was working this demonstration and that does not count those guys working their regular shifts. They have no idea the strain that puts on us not just physically but in the logistical sense. Then we get slagged by the same people we are trying to protect, b/c we are not responding to their house fast enough when they can not stop their twelve year old son from jumping on the bed or their neighbor won't turn the TV down at 9PM on a Saturday night.

(On a side not, more then a few of us working the route had to smile when a couple of protestors were hit by eggs being thrown out of an apartment building along their march route)

These people want others to realize and accept their cause, well how can you do that when all you're doing is pissing them off when you make them wait an hour and a half for you to clear the road so they can get home at the end of day. Or you block the entrance to their office building and they are late to work and get reamed by their boss.

Then you have these people saying they support the troops but the not the war. That's fine, but I'm sorry if you are at one of these rallies then you are clearly not supporting the troops. I have yet to see one pro-war rally. I have seen rallies in support of our troops, and the consensus among these is that they want the war over as quick as possible so our men and women fighting overseas can come home. I saw an interview on CNN or MSNBC with a woman at a anti-war rally in London calling British soldiers 'war criminals'. I've heard few comments as uneducated and utterly moronic. Yet this woman could not come up with a better answer then 'war is a horrible thing' when asked why she did not support the effort.

And this is particularly to the nations with troops fighting in this war US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Poland, etc; all of you protestors from these countries need to understand that it is those brave men and women over there in that desert sweating and bleeding that gives you the freedom to be able to voice your opinions and not have to worry about retribution. The people of Iraq do not have that freedom. Let's remember, Saddam Hussein has killed way more Muslims then all of our campaigns combined. Let's not forget who the bad guy is here.

papabear

03-24-2003, 07:36 PM

http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins032403.asp

papabear

03-24-2003, 07:44 PM

If Gods and Generals is still playing in a theater near you, see it and strike a blow against Hollywood.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31611

kilroy

03-24-2003, 07:47 PM

I really hate violant antiwar rallys. BTW, I was recently at a clearly pro-war rally with over 200 people. There were speechs by veterans saying that they have to get rid of Saddam, that the UN is irrevelant, and that they "have bought their last German car, and drank their last bottle of French wine." What a Saturday...

Angus

03-25-2003, 02:23 AM

...that the UN is irrevelant, and that they "have bought their last German car, and drank their last bottle of French wine."

Oh please, what a joke...what's next, calling them freedom fries instead of french fries? Oh wait....

Americans, and I dare say people in general, are so full of **** sometimes. A month or so from now no one will care about things being made in france or germany or what they're called and no one will care that the things we import from Germany or France come from Germany or France. If there's one shining example of how consumerism ultimately takes hold over ideological or social beliefs, it's the example of the jews...

Notice how the not-so-distance past acts of genocide can't dissuade so many of them from buying Mercedes Benz cars or any other finely engineered german products. Sure, we all know a grandpa who refuses to drive a Nip Car but put that into perspective with the severity of the opposition put up by the Germans and French. It doesn't even come close to the level of what was done during wwii.

That's not to insult the jews, nay, but rather, insult mankind that can so easily let the desire for wealth and comfort beyond what's needed quickly shake the Etch-a-Sketch of memory and wipe away astrocities in the name of consumerism.