Best Pistol Caliber?

[charliebravo]

I believe that the .45ACP is the best offensive handgun calber available, while the 9mm(9x19) is the best defensive handgun caliber.
When I say offensive I mean hostage rescues, and other situations where a handgun is more desirable than a rifle. When I say defensive, I mean a situation where a rifle would be better but carrying one would be impractical, like secondary weapons, pilots, and other situations where it would be useD if something went wrong(downed aircraft, weapon failure, etc.)

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST HANDGUN CALIBER?

[Russian Texan]

I like 9 mm because of hicaps and low recoil hence more percise follow up shots. 45 is great for stopping power but 16 in a mag + 1 in a chamber is much better IMHO.

[BMF]

just my personal opinion, but i'm all for stopping power. with 9mil theres' just too much chance that the target will keep on coming, whereas .45 or .40 will put him down for keeps. as far as mag. capacity, 12 rounds of .45 or .40 is fine by me. those 16 9mm rounds are going to go real fast when it takes 3-4 to put a single target down. the only downside to the higher calibers is that the handguns that use them are generally a bit too big for your average person to handle. you need big hands to properly use a good .45.

[El'Potato]

Although I have no experience in handguns as of to this date, only rifles, I'd still like to vote here and it went to the 10mm.

what appeals me with that round is the stopping power and the overall wide area of usage. You can get almost as many rounds as the 9mm in the same length of magazine, but with much more power to really get those bastards down.

But on a sidenote, Sweden has a specifically designed 9mm round to be used with the old kpist m/45 which saw limited use with US SF forces in Vietnam. The round uses a faster burning powder and has a reinforced jacket which penetrates NIa lvl III body armours with ease (Interceptor body armor has that status with out SAPI plates).
The only downfall with this particular 9mm round is that few handguns can shoot them without taking damage.
For general information, the round is called "patron m/39b".

Cheers!
// Micke

[GAFE]

.40 is good, not to hard, though you need a strong arm, a shot around the head chest area and you are done.

[Kampfhamster]

9mm is enough. I own a SIG Sauer P228, as a civilian I can use HP ammo which has enough stopping power.

[Miles Teg]

3 or 4 of 9mm rounds instead of 1 .45 to get down a target? I think it's a little exaggerated.
Sure the .45 is more efficient for stop capabilities, but...

Maybe it's one of the "American Dream Exaggeration"? No, I'm jocking :P

I vote for the .357, just for the Manurhin 73.
Yes ! I know it's not objective!

But I will say that the 9mm and .45 are the main efficient calibers and the choice between them will be let to the confidence of the user.

[Flagg]

you need big hands to properly use a good .45.

I disagree BMF.

Having spent considerable time firing a wide range of handguns I would have to say a person with small or average sized hands would find a more comfortable grip with a M1911 .45 frame than many/most 9mm high capacity frames such as the Beretta 92F or Glock 17 as the M1911 .45 frame is a "single stack magazine" compared to the Beretta and Glock "double stack". The M1911 frame is much easier to grip due to its smaller relative size(narrower grip).

One consideration (although not all-encompassing) when comparing the 9mm with the .45ACP is "throw weight"...the weight of the projectiles fired by the 2 respective rounds. Standard 9mm rounds are often around 115 grains in weight (fired at a a higher velocity) whereas the .45ACP is typically 230 grains (fired at a lower velocity).

Me.....I'll take a .45ACP shootin' iron any day over a 9mm. Having a handgun with a "Dirty Harry" sized hole at the business end does wonders for the confidence level. Unfortunately, I only get to "officially" range shoot a Sig P226 9mm...great frame...but not my first choice in calibre.

[Royal]

you need big hands to properly use a good .45.

I disagree BMF.



BMF - I'm with you. I'm an average sized guy with normal (I think) hands. I find the BHP and Glock 17 comfortable and easy to use. The Berreta is a bitch, too big and awkward. The old 1911 is a bit big, but I can use it comfortably. The Sig is a lovely weapon, but I hate it - it's too big for me to use comfortably...

Horses for courses, for me it's 9mm and a toss up between the Browning (better for rapid, accurate double tapping) and the Glock (better designed and more accurate at +20m ranges).

[Gringo]

Horses for courses, for me it's 9mm and a toss up between the Browning (better for rapid, accurate double tapping) and the Glock (better designed and more accurate at +20m ranges).

a toss up between a Glock and a Browning? A Brock!!!! :D

[FallenAngel]

damnit.....no Desert Eagle 50AE? WTF? :lol:

I am all for .45 ACP, although 9mm is a bit easier on the pocketbook :)

[ogukuo72]

Has anyone actually seen someone hit in a critical area with a 9mm and still keep coming? It sounds like one of those episodes where people keep repeating as anedotal evidence of the weakness of the 0.38, the existence of UFO, etc, but had never actually seen it.

[Ratamacue]

Ogukuo, think of it this way. In Somalia, the 5.56mm round was found to take several shots to drop Somalis jacked up on khat (a coke-like drug in plant form that you chew) whereas the 7.62mm would stop them dead in their tracks. The same really applies for the 45ACP vs. 9mm argument.

[BMF]

the problem with weapon size is that you need a double stack magazine to be a military handgun. a 1911 with is's 7-10 rounds(type-dependant) doesnt cut it anymore. just my opinion, but i'd say 10 rounds is the minimum. and as for the difference between 9mm/.45ACP. the .45 is a far larger round, so it carries far more potential energy when it hits the target. this is commonly known as knockdown power. the 9mm, in comparison makes up for it's lack of size with velocity. the problem here is that this dissipates faster, and thereby does less damage. simply: a .45 will knock a target down for good, whereas the 9mm cannot garauntee that. most training manuals persist that when using 9mm, you should put at least 2 rounds downrange. its all a matter of opinion really, i happen to prefer .40/.45, i tend to shoot better with them. some people are better with 9 mil.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

45's for the stopping power that they have. 9mm's are cool but when faced against some "khat" crazed somali, I'd preffer the .45

[Seoulstriker]

3 or 4 of 9mm rounds instead of 1 .45 to get down a target? I think it's a little exaggerated.
Sure the .45 is more efficient for stop capabilities, but...

Maybe it's one of the "American Dream Exaggeration"? No, I'm jocking :P

I vote for the .357, just for the Manurhin 73.
Yes ! I know it's not objective!

But I will say that the 9mm and .45 are the main efficient calibers and the choice between them will be let to the confidence of the user.

9mm is perfectly fine for stopping someone.

[rob]

contrary to popular beliefe, nless you shoot someone in the face, they wont go down instantly, the body will work a little even when the circulatory system has been taken out, and if they have drugs, best take out the ma duce as it dont really matter what you are shoot unless it is real big.

[martinexsquaddie]

read a story wher two american police men emptyed to .45s into a guy on PCP and a couple of shotgun rounds and it still did'nt stop had to be physically pinned down the Bloke survived as well :lol:
the .45 v 9mm will go on forever.
I had no probs carrying a 9mm most of europe carries 9mm and britsh police use them as well

[ogukuo72]

This debate reminds about a recent case where a drug addict attacked two local police officers here. He was stopped by a single 0.38 Special round - in the knee.

They were not armed with 0.45 and shotguns. A single shot from their 0.38 Special Chiefs Special was all that was needed.

It's not the size. It's how you use it.

[Gringo]

It's not the size. It's how you use it.
Lol that reminds me of Goldmember, when Michael Caine says "It's not the size that matters, it's how u use it!"

[XASA]

The best pistol caliber is the one you're issued and have been trained to use. Unless you're in a high-speed special ops unit that allows you to take your weapon of choice, you're going to be issued whatever is available. Whether you are a police officer or in the military, a pistol is a defensive weapon of last resort. As such, even the large caliber pistols lack the stopping power available in a long gun. Cover, concealment, back-up and shot placement are just as important as caliber if not more so.

[Miles Teg]

Sure, if you shot in the grease of a junky with "little" caliber like 9mm will be "cheap".
Don't think .45 is the Firefox for hanguns :P

But a good point for the .45 is the short stop :
It's a very important point, a french police coach/trainer explain me some factors for the choice of ammunition.
And the main factor is the casualties on non-involved peoples.
example : I suggest him to take a look at the Arcane ammo in 9mm (the cop killer in Lethal Weapon :D ).
But he replicates in this terms : This ammo is too dengerous for people, the Arcane is weel known to drop is energy very fast in body but not enough. So the bullet will pass through your target and maybe hit another one. And for police work it's very, very bad :roll:
So in this case the .45 is the most efficient to deliver his energy fast and properly to the main target.

But you can remark that some Hollow point ammo are available for 9mm.
But if I remember well hollow point ammo are not allowed for soldier or war use.

[Henk]

I think 9mm is the best allround bullet, but it all depends for what specific task you use a handgun, for example if you use it for silent killing at short range the best bullet is the .22 ,but on the other side if you use a handgun as your main weapon the best round is the .44 Magnum.

__________________________
The best weaopon is the mind.

[Miles Teg]

for silent killing at short range the best bullet is the .22

Naaahhh.

For main use I would prefer the 9mm.

But with silencer I will use certainly the .45

Because this ammu have a speed (350-400 m/s) near the speed of sound (340 m/s).
So if you take subsonic .45 the result (with a huge silencer) is a very discret shot, without the sonic bang (I think the .22 have a sonic bang :P ) but with a power similar of a normal .45.

If you take subsonic 9mm you will ahve a big loss of power.

Imagine a .22 with subsonic speed... "-Do you think you will hurt me with this bb gun ???" say your dangerous opponent :D hum... sorry I'm exaggerating a little


But you're right the best weapon is the mind, and the best ammo is a though.

[GazB]

Regarding the original post in a hostage rescue situation I'd prefer a SMG on semi auto rather than a pistol as you can support it with both hands and your shoulder and they tend to have longer barrels for more energy and accuracy.

The difference between 9mm and 45 cal is not that important to me. With softnose bullets a 9mm will make a hole about .45 cal anyway. The difference in weight is only important if they don't go right through.

At the end of the day a light recoiling round that is accurate and I don't flinch everytime I pull the trigger is what I want. I haven't fired every gun available so I can't say for sure, but my personal experience in killing animals is that if you place the shot in the kill zone then they will go down, whether I am using a .22 or a .308.

A 5.45 x 18mm through 32 layers of Kevlar that goes through the heart and spine of the target will kill. It is similar in power to a .22lr and is rather accurate but has almost no recoil.

[Seraphim]

but my personal experience in killing animals is that if you place the shot in the kill zone then they will go down, whether I am using a .22 or a .308.

A 5.45 x 18mm through 32 layers of Kevlar that goes through the heart and spine of the target will kill. It is similar in power to a .22lr and is rather accurate but has almost no recoil.

Well you cant hunt large game with a .22lr p-)

The .22lr has pretty much zero recoil.

[Micke]

12,7x99mm is the best pistol calibre.
http://www.birdman.org/images/m82pistbig.jpg

That or the NUKE50 MicroNuclear .50BMG:
http://www.birdman.org/images/nukead2big.jpg

[GazB]

"Well you cant hunt large game with a .22lr "

Don't know about the laws where you are, but here there are no restictions on what weapon I use when hunting on private property. If I choose to hunt deer with a .22lr I can. There are reccomendations by the police and mountain safety council that a .243 is probably the minimum calibre that should be used on deer, but it is not a law.

[USAF G]

Ok, handguns lack stopping or "knock down power". There is no such thing as a gaurenteed one shot stop. People have been stopped with one shot from a handgun, but people have also been stopped by just producing the handgun. Handguns lack the energy, yes even the vaunted 44 magnum, to cause enough hydrostatic shock to affect a blood pressure spike and cause systemic failure. If a shot happenes to sever the spine, then its possible to drop someone, however, that's a mighty small target. Even if the shot shreds the heart muscle, it may take up to five seconds for total collapse of the attacker, and a lot of damage can be done in that time.
Which handgun caliber is superior? Well if you shot three people in the same place with 9mm, 45ACP, and 40 s+w, using bullets of the same design (not necessarily the same weight), it would take a microscope to measure the difference in wound cavities. There really is no difference, and ammunition selection is far more important than caliber when it come to handguns, provided you are talking about .380 or larger.
An interesting fact about the 44magnum, a caliber that is often touted for being able to stop a bear, the Alaska deptartment of fish and game did a study. They could find no instance where someone had successfully defended their life from a Grizzly with a 44 magnum. They did have instances where a Grizzly was found dead near the body of the person who had shot it before it killed them. The bears had bled to death after ripping said outdoorsman apart. Everyone I know who has lived in Alaska, recomends carrying a 12 guage with slugs when traveling in bear country.
We come back to handguns and stopping power, the main factor that causes people who have been shot with handguns to stop is they decide to quit the fight. Bloodloss, pain, and physiological shock, the three physical factors that stop the body from functioning, take too long to help us in a defensive situation, so we have to rely on phychological shock. The ammount of psychological shock is going to be a very subjective, although we can try to tip the scales in favor of quitting with a healthy helping of well placed shots.
We carry handguns because they are portable and concealable, and because it's better than no defense. We shouldn't be deluded into beliving that the fight is over the moment we fire the first shot from our handcannon, and should be prepared to fight on even after shooting the BG with all the ammo in our gun.
A quick word about the "knock down power" of any gun. Physics dictate that the projectile will not hit the target with any more force than the gun just recoiled in your hands (Action/ Reaction). So unless that shotgun just knocked you over as you fired it, don't expect the BG to go flying backwards. Unless you are firing some sort of high tech round that actually accelarates after it leaves the gun, thereby hitting with more energy than was originally imparted on it. I was recently shot with a 12 gauge "bean bag" round (in a class) and it really didn't knock me back at all. Just my two cents on this. ;) G

[GazB]

"There is no such thing as a gaurenteed one shot stop."

Agree with most of what you said except this. Shooting for the head is a guaranteed kill... if you hit where you are aiming.

For self defence then multiple hits as fast as you can get them are the order of the day... if it genuinely self defence and not punnishment.

I have spoken to a Chechen war vet who said to me that the best place to hit a moving target is the hip... it stops them running everytime and is a larger target that doesn't move around so much compared to a knee or leg. He asures me that in his experience that a solid hit to the hip stops all use of the legs for moving about, and the follow up shot to the head or chest is easier if required. Flak vests rarely cover the hip.

I also disagree with you comment about hydrostatic shock. In my experience you don't need a super high speed bullet to kill cleanly. The only shock that kills is shock from bloodloss and that has more to do with the calibre of the round you used than the speed it was travelling at. The bigger the hole the faster the blood loss. Solid slugs from a shotgun are perfect because they are not jacketed and will expand on impact, and their mass means good penetration.

[USAF G]

Gaz,
I don't want to start a fight with you and I appreciate that you didn't start one with me. I would like to clarify a couple of things though. I wasn't talking about killing, but stopping your attacker. The most common factor that stops people is their own decision to quit. killing often takes way to long to be helpful in a defensive situation.
As far as head shots go, there is plenty of antecdotal and statistical evidance of people who have been shot in the head and continued fighting. The skull can be very hard to penetrate. Not to mention the difficulty of hitting the head of a moving target when you, presumably, are also moving.
I agree that the pelvic region can be a gread secondary target, after center of mass, in failure to stop situations. I would like to know, were all of those stops with rifle, or pistol rounds? I was discussing the "stopping power" of handgun calibers.
Hydrostatic shock does become a factor when we talk about quick stops. Blood loss will not work fast enough in a defensive situation to help you. A person must lose 20 percent of their total blood volume befor systemic shutdown occurs, this can take minutes. If they are beating or cutting on you during this period you may be losing the fight, even though they may die (nationally, there is an 85% survival rate for victoms of gunshot wounds). A violent enough bloodpressure spike can cause immediate shut down, but handguns lack the energy for this. Also they don't create a large enough wound channel to cause enough bloodloss to be immediatly effective.
I definately agree with you that multiple good hits are the order of the day. Shoot them to the ground, is one way i've heard it expressed. Clint Smith said, "They may be able to kill me with my own gun, but they'll have to beat me to death, because it'll be empty." ;) G

[Seoulstriker]

why not go with a Desert Eagle .50?

[ogukuo72]

Now, that's guaranteed to stop an elephant with one round! :lol:

How about the 5.7mm? The Five-Seven seems a pretty nifty piece of work, with twenty round capacity and ability to penetrate soft armour.

[USAF G]

The .50 Action Express pistol round doesn't even match up to 44 mag performance it's actually a fairly low pressure round. Mostly noise. I'll agree that the 5.7 looks to be promising in terminal balistics. :) G

[James]

I'm fond of .45 M-1911 types, but that's just because that was the first pistol I ever bought.

I think the best caliber and pistol is the one you have access to when you need it.

[BMF]

only problem with the 1911 as far as im concerned is the low capacity. 7 rounds just dont cut it anymore.

[rob]

delta, force recon, and detachment one would disagree. all have adopted single stack 1911 types.

also is a seal said that their standard issue p226 is within the last few years of its life and they will get something new in .45. what it is he says he knows but wont tell.

looks like the .45 just refuses to die.

[James]

only problem with the 1911 as far as im concerned is the low capacity. 7 rounds just dont cut it anymore.

I use 8 round mags, with another round in the chamber. If nine isn't enough, I can reload a couple of times. If 25 rounds isn't enough, I will run away and use my cell phone to call for help. ;)

[BMF]

well since SOCOM is switching over to the Mk 23 (and in some cases regular USP .45's). pretty good odds its something from HK. and I dont htink ive ever seen anyone outside of USMC CQB troops using the new re-tooled 1911's. and even then, thats sort of a quick fix. its a sad fact that the marines are a bit under-funded, so they tend to be a bit behind on new toys most of the time. having USMC armorers fix up and modernize weapons already in-stock is more cost-efficient. i love the 1911 to death(one of the half dozen best designed weapons ever made in my opinion)but it's day has come and gone

[rob]

detachment one a BRAND NEW unit JUST BOUGHT BRAND NEW PRICY KIMBERS for their men. delta is famous for thier single stackers aswell.

and a SEAL and a Force Recon operator both agreed that the usp was never used by anyone in their units nor is it available so that eliminates the seals and the marines. and the mk23 never really replaced much of anything, it is much more mission specific and fills a different nich then your standard defensive side arm. it is only used in certain cercumstances.

but the usp is a possibility, wouldnt be suprised if it is a 1911 type though.

[GazB]

"I wasn't talking about killing, but stopping your attacker. "

Ahh, that is different, now I see your point.

"The skull can be very hard to penetrate."

Except for at very shallow angles the human skull is not great at stopping most full calibre pistol rounds... except at longish range. Your point about the difficulty in hitting the head is much closer to the problem. Especially in low light and in a time of panic. A 12 guage is much more practical then a pistol, and more intimidating too. I remember reading advice in a US gun magazine where the guy had a 44 magnum snub nose revolver for self defence purely because of the noise and muzzle flash from that model.


"I would like to know, were all of those stops with rifle, or pistol rounds?"

He was a grunt... they didn't use pistols. In the urban combat he was talking about targets appeared at 100-50m but the bad guys often had body armour so a hip shot made more sense at the time.

"Clint Smith said, "They may be able to kill me with my own gun, but they'll have to beat me to death, because it'll be empty.""

Hehehehehe... great quote... :lol: :lol: :lol:

"why not go with a Desert Eagle .50?"

A pistol that size you might as well go for a small SMG. At least recoil won't punnish you everytime you go to the range to practise.

"Now, that's guaranteed to stop an elephant with one round!"

Usually you either get penetration or effect on target... rarely both. I doubt the 5.7 x 28mm round would have enough penetration to get to the vital organs of an elephant... otherwise 500 nitro express bullets wouldn't exist... big game hunters would just use .303s with small pointy bullets.

"only problem with the 1911 as far as im concerned is the low capacity. 7 rounds just dont cut it anymore."

If you don't get him with 7 what makes you think 15 is going to help?

High capacity is fine if you intend to take on a dozen people, but if that is the case a SMG or Assault Rifle make much more sense.

[ogukuo72]

I was referring to the 0.50 AE round, and even then, it was a joke. :) No professional in the right mind will carry a Desert Eagle in lieu of a carbine.

Between all the rounds cited, there is little difference. For a professional, if you can't do the job properly with a 9mm, it's unlikely you can do it better with a 0.45. The argument is academic and an idle one.

[martinexsquaddie]

The only possible use for a desert eagle would be in peace support missions where you want to impress the locals at road blocks with how much of a bad ars :D e you are

[mocking_loudly_died]

9mm is enough.

More rounds too.

Americans are always going to say 45. :lol:

"there is no such thing as overkill" - damn straight ;)

[Damn]

The 'stopping' ability of round is function of its momentum, p = mv (where m = mass and v = velocity) and its kinetic energy (1/2 mv^2). The greater the mass, the greater the momentum. However, since the kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity as opposed to only varying linearly with mass, a twofold increase in mass only results in a 2X increase in kinetic energy, while a 2X increase in velocity actually quadruples the kinetic energy.

This suggests that velocity is more important than mass when it comes to stopping power. But the story doesn't end here.

The energy received by the target is dependent on the ability of the round to transfer its kinetic energy to the surrounding tissues. Lost kinetic energy is converted into kinetic energy of the tissues, heat (from frictional losses), deformation energy and surface energy (from the separation of tissue mass at the wound track).

A bullet that is massive, or travelling at a high velocity, has high momentum and thus has high inertia. It's not going to stop very easily. If thats the case, the projectile will travel deeply into the body before it stops or in the worst case, penetrate completely through. The longer the bullet's path through the body, the less energy it dissipates per unit length it travels (think about it as density of energy delivery).

If the projectile stops quickly, it must deliver ALL that kinetic energy to a localized volume of tissue, maximizing the trauma. A bullet with a large diameter (Large caliber like .45 ACP) will encounter more frictional drag as it passes through the body (since drag is directly proportional to frontal surface area). Thus the larger the diameter, the greater the rate of energy dissipation per unit length traveled in the tissue.

That's why .45 ACP is so effective, because it combines MASS with a large DIAMETER which translates into large frontal area, large energy dissipation and lots of damage.

Oh, and if the bullet is able to stop more quickly, it also delivers more FORCE as well. This is because F = dP/dt where F = force; P = momentum = mv; t = time. This means the faster a projectile changes its momentum (by changing its velocity - ie. going from full speed to zero) the more force it delivers. So a .45 ACP bullet stopping relatively quickly in the body will provide a good ass-whooping amount of force to render the target inoperative.

That's the story

[Seraphim]

WoW...after reading that, I think I need to brush up on my math skills. ;)
Good post btw.

[WARPIG]

Lot's of knowledge here.. looks like 45 is a favorite.. not just the caliber but my guess is the pistols are favorites too. If we are talking military application the big diameter rounds are bound to be popular. Knocking down a target is almost better than killing 'em. (wounded have to be helped out of the combat zone) Police seem to lean towards the higher capacity pistols or atleast a good balance between stopping power and capacity.

Anyone heard of the new armor defeating round that FN is using in the FN Five Seven and the FN P90? Sounds like a good trade for military use. Maybe the sub won't see much military application but the Five Seven seems like a good Special Ops weapon. (not for us regular joes though)

[USAF G]

Damn, I agree with all that fancy math stuff, that you whipped out on us, but don't you think bullet design (expanding, fragmenting, weight, ect) makes a bigger difference that a couple of millimeters in diameter? And of course, as you said, velocity is king, when it comes to kenitic energy transfer. :) G

[Herrmannek]

Want more look there:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
Browse biblioghraphy there is lot's of good info.

We want to make you aware of the wealth of wound ballistics information available to you from sources other than newsstand gun magazines. Our objective is to provide you the knowledge tools you need to fully understand the qualities a bullet must have in order to be reliably effective in stopping a determined homicidal attacker.

Chances are, if you’re an average person, your primary (perhaps only) source of information about wound ballistics is what you've read in newsstand gun magazines. Problem is, most newsstand gun magazines are not a credible wound ballistics reference. Why?

Because a few questionable gun-writers (and editors) apparently recognize that magazine articles are the only source of information about wound ballistics for most people. It appears they’ve chosen to prey on a general lack of knowledge about wound ballistics to misinform and invent controversy. Controversy sparks reader interest and promotes sales. Most anyone familiar with the popular media recognizes this.

These discredited authors have been so successful in influencing the popular gun press (including honest editors and authors who don’t know any better) that most information published in newsstand gun magazines about wound ballistics is tainted.

The basics of terminal performance, wounding effects and wounding effectiveness are pretty easy for ordinary people to understand, and this creates a conflict of interest for some gun-writers because there really isn't much to write about.

:) Instead of sticking to simple facts these particular authors would rather delude you with paragraph after paragraph of mystical concepts such as "energy transfer," "neural shock," "Fuller Index," "one-shot stopping power," "Strasbourg Tests," and "street results." Although this stuff makes for interesting and entertaining reading, it's really nothing more than a bunch of sophisticated junk-science they've invented to ensure they have plenty to write about. :)

These pseudo-expert 'master psychics' of wound ballistics want you to believe only they (and they alone) possess the clairvoyance to properly interpret and evaluate the factors that make a particular bullet more effective than others. They tell an alluring tale, but these discredited few are actually snake-oil salesmen who've been quite successful in creating a market to peddle their brand of proprietary nonsense.

Having failed to influence law enforcement to any great degree, these gun-writers invented a new controversy: "civilians need personal defense ammo that penetrates the human body less deeply than law enforcement ammunition". Unfortunately, this kind of 'expert advice' can get you or a loved one killed if the shooting situation you face doesn't conveniently fit their stereotypical 'civilian self-defense shooting scenario.'

Wound ballistics is a specialty field that doesn’t receive much exposure outside the few professional disciplines that have a need for valid, scientifically verifiable information about ballistic injury. As a result, the average person isn’t aware this information exists or that it can be easily obtained. Sadly, this situation has allowed junk-science to flourish virtually unchallenged in newsstand gun magazines.

We’ve reprinted a few wound ballistics articles and put together a Suggested Reading list of publications from various sources, which, if you're interested, should help you learn more about the science of wound ballistics. Hopefully, the knowledge you acquire in reading these documents will keep you from being victimized by those unscrupulous few who seek to exploit your ignorance for profit.

Our goal is to instill a healthy attitude of skepticism in you so you're not as willing to believe everything you read. Hopefully, you'll learn enough here such that you'll be able to evaluate the qualifications of so-called ballistics experts.

[Damn]

USAF G, you're right about the importance of bullet design (taper, center of mass, frangibility, etc.). What I was trying to illustrate were the physical relationships between the mass, velocity and size of the projectile and the force, momentum and energy carried and exerted by the projectile. But you've hit the nail on the head with respect to design.

For instance, one of the reasons why hollowpoints have such good stopping power and not very good penetration is that they expand so that their frontal area is increased significantly. Since frontal area is proportional to the square of the diameter ( A = pi/4*d^2), a small increase in diameter makes a huge difference in frontal area and resulting force.

And for everyone's info, I'm not a ballistics salesman or firearms magazine editor. I work in engineering.[/quote]

[rob]

Lot's of knowledge here.. looks like 45 is a favorite..

since this is a mainly american board what did you expect?

[ogukuo72]

Want more look there:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
Browse biblioghraphy there is lot's of good info.

Excellent link! :)

A pistol and its round is a practical tool. Remember - it's always a compromise - firepower is sacrificed for concealibity and portability. No Secret Service agent or policeman would carry a 0.50 AE Desert Eagle on a daily basis on the job except in the movies.

The best pistol calibre is not one that will best stop a target in a lab environment. The best pistol calibre is one that allows an officer to (1)carry an adequate number of rounds with (2) reasonable stopping power which he can (3) fire relatively accurately with the training he will be given.

Different rounds will suit the different amount and type of training the officer is likely to receive, as well as the different requirement for portability and concealability of his job.

Let's take a look at different roles:

Law Enforcement Officer - he has minimum pistol training in a minimal spectrum of scenario. The pistol calibre can't be too large or he will not be able to control it well enough to shoot it accurately and rapidly under a stressful environment. A 0.38 Special and 9mm are both better than 0.45 in this respect.

He needs a light weapon which he can carry with him all the time with reasonable comfort. A large pistol calibre will also mean a large pistol, which is a burden when you don't need to use it most of the time. Remember the story about the FBI 10mm Smith and Wesson? It's too big and heavy for most agents whose primary role is investigation, not shoot outs with terrorists. So, the switch back to 9mm was made. 9mm is probably best for this role, although 0.40 is good as well. Beyond that, other rounds are too heavy.

Secret Service/ Close Protection Officer - he has a lot more training than the beat cop in a wide spectrum of scenarios. This probably means he can fire most pistols with good accuracy even under stress.

However, he needs a light and concealable pistol as he needs to carry it all day under a jacket or a shirt (unless you are an Israeli b/g). The smaller and lighter the weapon, the better it is. A 9mm pistol like the Glock 19 is better than a 0.45 pistol like the USP.

He will also need a large number of rounds - the more than better. Not only is it likely that he will need to engage multiple targets, he will need to fire his weapon for extended periods of time while he cover the evacuation of the principle. A 9mm is better than a 0.45 as gramme for gramme, he can carry more 9mm rounds than 0.45 rounds.

Another important point: he must be able to fire his weapon rapidly and move quickly from one target to the next, and no matter how well trained he is, physics and physiology dictates that he will be able to fire a 9mm more rapidly than a 0.45.

A 9mm may not have as much pure stopping power than 0.45, but it has enough, and given the above consideration, an CPO will carry a 9mm. (Note: the 0.357 SIG is not an option in the poll, but the Secret Service is now using this round. Another good compromise for this role compared to the 0.45.)

SWAT/Spec-Ops:

There is no issue with training or concealability. A Spec-Ops operator is superbly trained and will handle any pistol calibre well. He also usually carries it on a thigh hostler which makes the carriage of a large weapon easier and more comfortable.

But why carry a larger, heavier pistol with heavier ammunition anyway? His primary weapon is a submachine gun or a carbine. He is already carrying a large amount of weight on his person (his body armour, helmet, ammunition for his primary weapon, grenades, cuffs, comms gear, torchlight, tools, breaching equipment, breaching charges, mirrors, etc.) A 9mm pistol offers more rounds with adequate stopping-power pound for pound compared to a 0.45 pistol with more stopping power.

9mm ist besser.

[NcDeuce]

Stopping power

[ogukuo72]

And what does "stopping power" mean exactly?

[Bob the Drunk]

Remember the story about the FBI 10mm Smith and Wesson? It's too big and heavy for most agents whose primary role is investigation, not shoot outs with terrorists. So, the switch back to 9mm was made. 9mm is probably best for this role, although 0.40 is good as well. Beyond that, other rounds are too heavy.


OK, the FBI actullay uses the .40 S/W now. The standard issue is a Glock, although some of the older agents are still carrying the Sig. The FBI stopped using the 10mm beacuse they were having problems maintaing their weapons. Stress fractures and the like were not an anticipated problem from the new round. Additionally, some of the female agents had problems handling the large frame, not the round.

Secret Service/ Close Protection Officer - he has a lot more training than the beat cop in a wide spectrum of scenarios. This probably means he can fire most pistols with good accuracy even under stress.

However, he needs a light and concealable pistol as he needs to carry it all day under a jacket or a shirt (unless you are an Israeli b/g). The smaller and lighter the weapon, the better it is. A 9mm pistol like the Glock 19 is better than a 0.45 pistol like the USP.

He will also need a large number of rounds - the more than better. Not only is it likely that he will need to engage multiple targets, he will need to fire his weapon for extended periods of time while he cover the evacuation of the principle. A 9mm is better than a 0.45 as gramme for gramme, he can carry more 9mm rounds than 0.45 rounds.

Secret Service and DSS are both issued Sig Sauer's, not the Glock. Also a quick note about protection, the object is not to fire off as many rounds as possible with a handgun, its to get the principal to a place of safety, e.g. a vehicle. If you are engaging multiple targets in an AOP, you best be bringing more than a 9mm or .357 SIG to the party. USSS and DSS have heavy weapons available to them in the vehicles for just this sort of scenario. Agents are also issued SMG's in what are called FAG (Fast Action Gun) bags. If you ever see FPI, look at his detail and you will see the bags, not very hard to miss if you are looking for them.

As a final point that i think we are missing here, firing off as many rounds as fast as you can is a fun way to spend a Sunday morning (god knows i have put enough rounds down range like that) but it is in no way a practical exercise. Your SF guy, your USSS guy, your SWAT guy don't want to burn through ammo for ****s and grins. If it takes you 15 or 16 rounds to put a target down, don't look to hi-cap magazines, invest in some trainning. If you are engaged with one target, and you can't get him/her down with 7 or 8 rounds, buy a shotgun.

The 9mm is not the best round in the world, its also not the worst. People have said it here on this post already, the best round is whatever works for you in a given situation. As a final note, the 9mm, if employed properly, will put a subject down. I don't care how big you are, 2 rounds center mass and 1 in the forehead and you won't be coming home for x-mas. I know some of you believe that the 9mm is a whimpy round, but there is also no Santa Claus and Elvis isn't cutting records anymore. Wake up and deal with reality.

Just my 2 cents.

[XASA]

Bob the Drunk,

Good stuff! That's one of the best "first time" posts I've read here. Welcome aboard.

[BMF]

to add on to what bob said. most handgun training (at least on the tactical end) stresses that the person who is going to walk away alive is the one who takes the first calm, aimed shot and scores the first hit. just pulling the trigger 16 times isnt going to cut it.

[Seoulstriker]

Bob the Drunk,

Good stuff! That's one of the best "first time" posts I've read here. Welcome aboard.

roger!

[NcDeuce]

And what does "stopping power" mean exactly?

Basically you want to incapacitate the attacker with a single shot rather than having to use four rounds to bring one man down. Because what's the range of a .45, 50 yards?

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/images/hksocom2.jpg
Beauty

[Seoulstriker]

And what does "stopping power" mean exactly?

Basically you want to incapacitate the attacker with a single shot rather than having to use four rounds to bring one man down. Because what's the range of a .45, 50 yards?

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/images/hksocom2.jpg
Beauty

it looks fantastic. is that a suppressor?

[NcDeuce]

Silencer and laser targeting system.

[Seoulstriker]

Silencer and laser targeting system.

ok, that seems right... i just never saw a rectangular suppressor before :P

[rob]

the rectangular supressor was an idea that allowed for lower profile sights and still be able to see over the supressor. it didnt proove worth while and was dropped for the more traditional round "can" made by kac

[Bob the Drunk]

Thanks for the positive comments guys. I didn't mean to get off on a rant, but i tend to get a little irritated by people claiming to have expert knowledge on subjects where they really don't know dick. It happens on every board. I have seen it here. Everyone is SF, or everyone is Delta. If a picture was taken of them then they must be the balls. I know I am a new poster here, but I have been around the block a couple of times.

So my advice to all the people here is this: If you don't know, ask. Nobody is going to call you stupid because you don't know the answer. If they do, chances are they don't really know the answer either, they just feel the need to act superior. The people who have lived it and the people who know it, don't need to rub it in your face. Actually, we are more than willing to help explain things.

One other thing, unless you have actually put on a uniform, carried a weapon and stood a post, don't say that you did. Nobody here (ok, maybe there are some people) cares that you didn't serve. But there are a TON of people that have served and have not come back home. I knew some of them. By claiming to be something you are not, you diminishing the sacrifice they made so that you can sit on the internet and you can read whatever you want. Freedom isn't free. I know we hear that a lot these days, but its true. There are people out there that put it all on the line everyday.

You want to say that you were/are SF. Great, go join up and take your beating for a while. I think you will understand my feelings the first time you put on the uniform for real.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Sorry, 6 or 7 beers and this is what you get from me.

[BMF]

thank god, another drunk in this place...im not alone anymore. most of these kids are too young for that sort of thing anyway

[Glock]

I think it belongs to the situtation wich caliber I would take but normaly I think 9x19 is the best!
For normal Police Use I think .40 S/W is better for SWAT I think 9mm is the Best !
Also for Bodyguard's or Military use I also think that 9mm is best! For Military SF or Divers .45 is in my opinion best!
Greatings Leo

[Durandal]

9mm

It has plenty of power to stop an unarmored human being. (Let's be honest here, most normal people, when they are shot go down, center mass and all). If you are worried about it, use hollow points.

Double Stack High capacity magazine capability.

It is a LOT cheaper to shoot than any of the larger rounds (I am looking at this simply as a matter of economics...I shoot a lot and buy by the case...1000 rounds for 82.00 to 110.00 USD...as cheap as reloading them yourself).

Compatible with more subguns.

When the subsonic is used control is soooo sweet. (A number of U.S. police agencies are starting to do this with their standard weapons).

Less recoil.

The only draw back a 9mm has is its penetration. If you are target shooting then there is little to worry about, but if you are doing HRT or something, this is a concern obviously...which takes you back to hollow points and subsonic.

Keep in mind that I LOVE shooting my 1911, but I shoot 9mm so much more than .45.

I am not a big fan of the 10mm or .357 (mainly a revolver round...the only revolver round I actually enjoy is the .454 Kasul...and that is simply because of the power) because there are not enough guns that I enjoy shooting that use them. Nor have they been picked up in any large quantities by militaries or law enforcement agencies. The .40 is nice but simply WAY too expensive.

When I get my composite IMI Jericho (Baby Eagle), I will probably be getting it in 9mm simply because I would have all 9mm pistols with the exception of the 1911. I do not think I would add another cartridge. When I go shopping, I have to get .308, 5.56, 7.62x39, 9mm, and .45 (not to mention the different 12 guage rounds). that is a lot of different rounds for a single individual. I plan on buying nothing outside those five calibers unless it is a .17 hornet or .50).

[Durandal]

thank god, another drunk in this place...im not alone anymore. most of these kids are too young for that sort of thing anyway

Make that another here.

[BMF]

just finished reading a book written by Charlie Beckwith. the guy who founded SFOD-D, and helped totally revamp SF and ranger training in the 1960s. he made damned good case for .45

his main reasons were stopping power, and penetration. the .45 is a bigass bullet, so it's knockdown power is great. secondly the bullet isnt travelling fast(for a bullet anyways) and so there is not much chance of it going through your intended target into an innocent person behind. Now this is primarily from a counter-terror point of view.

The truth is that there is no single "perfect" caliber of ammo. im more comfortable with .45's myself, at least in my field of work (army). even within the military there are certainly times when 9mm is a good choice, and times when it is a poor choice. the same applies to the .45

[MARK.TIGGER]

for military use 9mm is probably best as its easy to get people comfortable firing it. .45 ACP is a good stopper but it is very disconcerting to fire. Pistols will only be issued to a few in an army who will get to fire it rarley I carried one in the gulf but han't touched one for more than a year.

[eggroll]

no one seems to clue in on shot placement and technique?

115grn vs 230grn

followup shots?

I prefer to have more rounds in a fight than rely on that 'one' big hit.

EGG

[BMF]

study i read, done by marines on pistol use in combat said that, in a shootout, the person who got off the first controlled, aimed shot was often the winner. that kinda rules out the concept of fast followup shots. plus, ive used 9 mil and .45, there wasnt much of a difference for me as far as recoil effects

[Yankee_Delta]

Law Enforcement:.40S&W
pros:good compromise of stopping power and capacity
cons:thin brass, badly overpressure
Hostage Rescue:10mm Auto
pros: very high stopping power, good capacity,and versatility in loading
cons: lack of popularity
Military:9x19mm
pros:Capacity, low recoil, flat trajectory,popularity,low cost
cons:low power,ineffective ball ammo
CCW:.45 ACP
pros: power, low capacity looks better in courts, popularity
cons:low capacity,high capacity is very bulky
Civilian Use:.357 Magnum/.38+P
pros:excellent stopping power,good range,popularity,very versitile,can chamber .38
cons: limited capacity but makes up for it in power
Conclusion: There is no perfect caliber.As soon as you try to make the "Perfect" caliber you run into problems. However .357 Magnum is powerful, accurate, and can also chamber .38+P rounds. Revolvers are proven designs and the .357 has a great track record.If you dont care for the low capacity the Taurus 608 and S&W Models 327 and 627 are 8 shot .357 revolvers.Like i said the is no perfect caliber but because of its versatility, I voted for the .357 Magnum as the "best" caliber.

P.S..357 SIG comes nowhere close to .357 Magnum in power

P.S.S. I want a desert eagle in .357 Mag

P.S.S.S GO NEW YORK YANKEES

[James]

Thanks for your input.

[Paulinski]

I like .45 ACP and I would carry 357 Sig for carry.

[Canadian Sig]

What? No .454 Casul???? ;)

[boreal]

And what does "stopping power" mean exactly?

http://www.kumawar.com/weapons.m67.jpg

[orionhawk]

P.S..357 SIG comes nowhere close to .357 Magnum in power
gonna have to disagree, there, man. unless you are talking about handloads, .357SIG is the exact same bullets, at very nearly identical velocities, as factory defensive loads in .357 Magnum. => same power, minus the tiny differences between semiautos and revolvers.


@op/poll: all the listed calibers are good rounds, at least for LEO/CCW/home defense, who can use hollowpoints. shot placement and follow-up tend to be a bit more important with 9mm and .38Spl, helped by hot +P loadings.
I consider .45ACP the best all-around, but that's me. .40S&W is also an excellent defensive/LE cartridge, especially with a good modern hollowpoint.

.357 Magnum is a serious manstopper, especially in a full-size revolver, or Desert Eagle (for those who can actually handle one). It is also insanely loud, and can produce a ridiculous flash.
I am not familiar, personally, with 10mm.