Kiwi's Courage Under fire in East timor

[h_rnzir]

excerpt from NZ Herald newspaper:


As incoming enemy fire thumped into the nearby trees, peppering his face with splinters, Private Phillip Cheater inched towards where his mate lay.

Private Cheater and Private Leonard Manning had been leading a New Zealand patrol scouring the border between East and West Timor in July 2000 when their group came under heavy fire and Private Manning fell to the ground.

"I crawled up as close as I could get to Manning without getting shot because there was quite a lot of firing coming down," Private Cheater recalls.

"I moved up to where I could see his head, shoulder and gun and called out to him and I could tell by the way there was no response that he was dead. There was too much fire going down ... so I had to pull back."

Private Cheater (now holding the rank of Trooper) had risked his own life for his comrade, an act for which he was yesterday awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Decoration.

The recognition has been a long time coming.

"This is an award long overdue for a gallant act in the face of the enemy," the Chief of the Defence Force, Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson, said yesterday.

"Trooper Cheater acted in the finest traditions of the Service and servicemen in going to see if he could assist Private Manning.

"The word 'gallant' recognises the significance of the award. The level of the award would have equated to the old Military Cross, so it's well deserved in the circumstances."

Trooper Cheater's actions were only revealed publicly in September 2002 following a Weekend Herald investigation into the circumstances surrounding Private Manning's death, the first time a New Zealand soldier had been killed in an enemy firefight since Vietnam. Militia member Yacobus Bere was later sentenced to jail for the attack.

Military commanders attempted to prevent staff from talking about the incident, and blocked interviews with his patrol members.

Today, the Weekend Herald can reveal the stories of the patrol members - including Trooper Cheater - for the first time. Transcripts of interviews conducted with the men by a military historian and obtained under the Official Information Act reveal how much danger they were in and how close they came to being shot themselves.

The night before the attack, the patrol was told by an East Timorese man that pro-Indonesian militiamen were active in the area.

The soldiers immediately drew up a mission to protect the locals and track the militia.

"We actioned our weapons, put 40 mil ammunition up the chamber and legged it down the road," said one patrol member. "We were all sort of pretty keen at that stage, it was almost a jog down the road."

When darkness fell, the group holed up in the bush. It rained for the first time in days, and they could actually hear the enemy near them. They would discover in the morning that they were only about 50m apart.

"It was just like a mass of trees and they were just on the other side," said a patrol member.

In the morning, they resumed the hunt. Intelligence reports told them they should not expect heavy fire.

"[It had been] ground into us that if we come across militia we just had to say the magic words and they'd put their weapon down and hands up, that's sort of what we expected," said one soldier.

"We thought we were quite safe. The ridge line was on our right hand shoulder, we were just cresting below it and then, bang, the first shot went down.

"I think everyone was a bit stunned - my first impression was that it was a UD [unauthorised discharge] because there was no way we expected that sort of carry on.

"But it seems probably only a split second and then it was like, yeah, contact, and then we all took cover. At that stage there was still one guy firing. He was firing quite regularly."

The rest of the patrol began the retreat downhill with the militia in hot pursuit, lobbing grenades.

"They weren't close enough to make us dive for cover or anything but, it still put the ****s up us a bit," said the patrol's corporal.

"They were still coming down the hill towards us and then we hit this bloody wire weed, which was about head high or over head high.

"It really slowed us down and they were catching up, getting closer and closer and closer."

By this stage, Private Cheater had retreated downhill too, suffering an ankle injury in the rough terrain. He and the corporal fired three rounds from their grenade launcher.

"We were firing at the sound and we couldn't actually see them," said Private Cheater.

The corporal said he heard the grenades land and explode. "I can't recall hearing any other shots after that and that was our sort of saving grace," said the corporal. "We managed to muscle our way through the wire weed, make our way to the road and we legged it."

The party joined up with other members of the New Zealand company and a mission was launched to retrieve Private Manning's body.

The company's command sergeant major said that the discovery that Private Manning's body was mutilated had made the New Zealand contingent angry.

"I think possibly a good thing was that the anger was channelled," he said.

"People would go all for nothing, they were very angry, quite deeply hurt.

"It came home to people that, you know, people could kill and Private Manning was now gone."

[digrar]

Nice to see blokes getting recognition even if it is well overdue.

the above article (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=9005233)


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=2497148


Pal risked his life trying to save Manning

07.09.2002

By EUGENE BINGHAM

http://img107.exs.cx/img107/6062/r07privatemanning.jpg
Pte Leonard Manning

Fresh details of the attack that killed peacekeeper Leonard Manning have revealed how another New Zealand soldier risked his life in an attempt to recover his fallen mate.

Private Phillip Cheater, of Rotorua, saw his friend fall as shots burst out during a jungle patrol in East Timor.

As heavy fire continued, he crawled back to Private Manning, despite endangering his own life.

Private Cheater's role has emerged in a Weekend Herald investigation into the first enemy firefight to kill a New Zealand soldier since the Vietnam War.

Documents obtained under the Official Information Act and sources close to the incident have revealed for the first time details of what happened.

Private Manning's patrol was ambushed by militia near the peak of a steep hill.

As fellow soldiers followed instructions to scramble for cover downhill through thick vegetation, Private Cheater reached Private Manning.

He shook him by the leg and told him: "Come on. It's time to go."

Realising his friend was dead, Private Cheater, aged 20 at the time, crawled down the hill and reported what had happened.

A military source familiar with Private Cheater's role said he was "extremely impressed" by what the young soldier had done.

"He could have looked to his own safety and gone without checking on Leonard," said the source.

"He did risk his own life to do that. I think it was incredibly brave."

Private Manning's parents, Linda and Charlie Manning, have decided against further comment about their son's death, preferring to focus on the East Timor School Trust, set up by the family to raise money to educate children in the newly independent nation.

But in a letter to North & South magazine after a February article that questioned the patrol's actions, they praised the courage of a soldier who saw Private Manning fall. That soldier was Private Cheater.

Private Cheater's mother, Eileen, said her son had not talked much about what happened.

"He is the sort of person who would downplay his involvement because he did what he was trained to do," said Mrs Cheater.

"He did say he had always wondered how he would react [in a battle situation] and now he knows.

"I guess ultimately I'm pleased it was not him who was killed, which is probably selfish, I know.

"We are just pleased with the way he has handled everything."

Political controversy since the magazine article was published meant the Army was sensitive about the Weekend Herald's investigations and attempted to prevent military staff from talking to the newspaper.

Army chief Major General Jerry Mateparae declined requests to interview Private Cheater or any other members of the patrol and refused to comment on the patrol's actions.

A spokesman for Major General Mateparae said: "We have no desire for our soldiers to be put through further interviews or scrutiny over the incident."



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=2497040


Ambush on a Timor jungle trail


07.09.2002

Official papers finally reveal the story behind Private Leonard Manning's death. EUGENE BINGHAM reports.

Suai farmer and militia member Yacobus Bere and about eight other men watched Private Leonard Manning's patrol advance along a jungle track.

The militiamen later told a Jakarta court they were herding stray cattle near the East Timorese border.

Whatever they were doing, they were heavily armed.

Private Manning stopped and looked up to his left. No one will ever know why.

Maybe he had noticed something on the track. He was, after all, a highly skilled scout, a talent first noticed by his parents during family bush walks and honed by the Army.

Maybe he had heard what was lurking on the high ground.

When the other five soldiers in the patrol heard shots, their first thought was that someone had accidentally fired his weapon.

As the following rounds rang out, the soldier in front of Private Manning realised this was an ambush. Private Phillip Cheater watched his mate fall to the ground.

Forensic pathology reports would record that Private Manning was looking directly towards the barrel of Bere's gun.

The ambush near the peak of a steep hill called Foho Debululik on July 24, 2000, became the subject of a military Court of Inquiry and an Indonesian murder trial, although the public would learn little of what emerged in either of these hearings.

The Court of Inquiry was conducted in private and only a summary of its findings was released.

Claims that Private Manning did not die instantly, that his patrol abandoned him, and that there was a cover-up swirled around and surfaced in a magazine article this year.

A Weekend Herald investigation can now reveal the roles of key people in the incident.

Government documents obtained under the Official Information Act show that an East Timorese man, Hermenigildo do Reis, had tipped off the United Nations peacekeepers about militiamen roaming near Tilomar.

Mr dos Reis told the trial in Jakarta that he was frightened by the armed militia and alerted the New Zealanders, who were patrolling that area as part of their peacekeeping duties.

Private Manning's patrol tracked the militia group through the night and into the next day. The 24-year-old Putaruru soldier and 20-year-old Private Cheater alternated as first and second scout.

About 10.30am, Private Cheater was in the front armed with a Steyr rifle, while Private Manning followed with the section machinegun.

The pair knew how each other operated. The close friends worked together regularly and were planning to go on a hunting trip when they returned home.

When the shooting started, the New Zealand patrol commander yelled at his men to carry out a "withdrawal under fire", scrambling through the elephant grass to the side of the track.

As the rest of the patrol regrouped, they realised two were missing.

Back up on the track, Private Cheater was risking his life. As the militia kept shooting, he crawled back to where Private Manning lay in an awkward position, but realised his mate was dead.

Pathologist Timothy Koelmeyer would testify that Private Manning died instantly from a shot above his left eye.

Private Cheater scurried down to rejoin his patrol. He reported that he believed Private Manning had been killed.

From up on the hill, the militia advanced, firing weapons and throwing grenades.

The New Zealanders used their grenade-launcher to fire back. It stopped the assault.

The trial heard that Bere was hit in the hand, although he claimed the New Zealanders fired first.

The depleted patrol joined up with other members of the New Zealand battalion down the hill. Some wanted to return immediately but orders were given to take a more methodical approach.

The area was sealed off and soldiers slowly moved in. Private Manning's body was found by his company sergeant-major, Warrant Officer Phil Burgess, just before dark. His throat had been slashed and both ears cut off.

Bere told an Indonesian Army officer, Andri Gurawan, that he had mutilated the body, though he later claimed he had been tortured.

In court, Bere maintained he was a freedom fighter who acted in self-defence.

New Zealand diplomats who observed the trial say Bere appealed to the Indonesian judges "not to allow this nation to betray me".

"In East Timor, we were praised as high as the sky," said Bere, with a Indonesian flag wrapped around his head. But after the independence referendum and the withdrawal of Indonesian forces from East Timor, "we were stomped on".

A cable from the New Zealand Embassy in Jakarta says Bere then sang an Indonesian patriot song from the independence struggle against the Dutch.

"Bere concluded that after fighting under and for the Indonesian flag, he was ready to stand trial," says the cable.

Trial evidence showed Bere was a member of the pro-Indonesian militia group Laksaur and that he had been armed with military equipment by a militia commander.

Some believe this highlighted the involvement of Indonesian security forces in the arming and supporting of militia. But Foreign Minister Phil Goff told the Weekend Herald he did not believe there was any direct evidence of Indonesian forces handing Bere the fateful gun.

"That's not to say ... that perhaps rogue elements within the [Indonesian Army] continued to co-operate with some areas of the militia, but I don't think there is anything that would suggest that was a formal policy," said Mr Goff.

The Indonesian judges sentenced Bere to six years' imprisonment. Three other men who admitted being with him were found not guilty.

The case is now before appeal authorities. Ministry of Foreign Affairs officials say a decision could take days or weeks.

[armourer]

Should Trooper Cheater ever come to England I'd like to shake his hand and buy him a beer or twenty...well done the ANZAC's

[fantassin]

Quote:

Private Cheater (now holding the rank of Trooper)

Are we to believe is is now part of the NZSAS having becomed a "trooper" ?

[h_rnzir]

can neither confirm nor deny that information!! :lol:



correct

[fantassin]

You're right, that's not part of the "big four".....

"I can't answer that question" !

[NicNZ]

Private Cheetah

;)

[Lokos]

Go the New Zealanders! Cheers.

I consider myself Serbian/Australian/New Zealander, because I've spent similar lengths of time in each of these places, and I can only say that a person can feel nothing but pride when looking at the achievements of the ANZACs.

Best regards,
Lokos

[PrincessRAR]

Ahhh yes another convert into the ranks of the regiment,

Either that or someone has commited a tragedy and converted from Gods core into bucket drivers.

[Opening Batsman]

I actually didn't know that this had happened. :oops: I must have been asleep under a rock when it all occured. Good on Trooper Cheater.

[digrar]

It's nearly five years ago now, you would have still been ****ting yellow back then mate. :P
We had a change of ROE around the same time it happend. We had just had two militia grenade attacks and hadn't been able to respond the way we would have liked to, with the change in ROE and the stories of Leo Mannings mutilation going around there was a definate change in attitude in my platoon and I imagine the rest of the unit as well.

[Spud]

I flew from AUSBAT down to Suai on the day they found PTE Manning and brought him back. Without doubt the most moving thing I have ever experienced was the send-off NZBATT gave their fallen mate. If there is ever a way to send of a brave warrior the kiwis do it right ... I don't mind admitting I was almost crying just from the emotion of the moment and I didn't even know the bloke. I will never forget the couple of female Maoris (one was a SSGT) who sang/wailed this haunting melody as the vehicle carrying his coffin went past. That coupled with biggest meanest looking Maori warriors in their tradtional garb screaming and yelling to clear the way ... it was an event I'll never forget.

Oh the general feeling across the whole area of revenge once they found out about the mutilation certainly added to the atmosphere.

RIP PTE Manning

[oldsoak]

hope they get the b*stards that did it.

[digrar]

The Indonesian judges sentenced Bere to six years' imprisonment. Three other men who admitted being with him were found not guilty.

I remember feeling pretty pissed the day I heard this. I never heard anything about the appeal or even if the appeal was from the Kiwi's for a longer sentence or from Bere for a shorter one.

[Hellfish]

So he got a medal for checking on his buddy?

[oldsoak]

- while under fire.

[Hellfish]

Forgive me for this, as I don't mean any disrespect to the dead, the great nation of New Zealand or the awardee, but it doesn't seem to me like it was a medal-worthy action. I mean, he was in a firefight and found out his buddy was killed... but then left his buddy behind and by the time they came back to recover the body it had been mutilated?

I don't know how the New Zealand Gallantry Medal ranks against other combat medals and their American equivalents (Is it like the US Army Commendation Medal, Bronze Star, Silver, etc.?) and I'm probably going to get severely flamed for this, but it sounds like this medal may have been more political than it was practical. Like somebody needed to make something good come out of a tragedy.

I mean, if this guy had dragged his buddy's body back while under fire, that would be something. But he (and the rest of the squad/section) left the body behind... and the body ended up being mutilated. That's horrific to me, not gallant.

I daresay it's almost as sad as the US Air Force giving Bronze Stars out like candy to pilots during the Kosovo campaign.

I'm honestly not trying to stir up anger or resentment here - as a former infantryman I can't fathom leaving behind a dead buddy and then getting a medal for it. "Leave No One Behind" is a famous Special Forces motto here in America, but it's also a deep seniment amongst all of us servicemen - you simply do not leave anyone behind, even if it costs your own life or limbs.

Am I just missing something? :|

[sp2c]

he didn't just check on his mate, he went back for im while under fire but when the guy turned out dead it was about time to save his own life ... he did the right thing imo otherwise there'd be two dead kiwi's that day

[armourer]

Hellfish6 were you there ?

Wiould you be as brave ?

Are you in the military ?

I guess the answer is no to all the above.

How dare you, sitting in front of your computer in complete safety, judge the actions and awards for bravery ?

I'd rather shake Tpr Cheaters hand than 1000 hands belonging to people like you hellfish6

[Hellfish]

Hellfish6 were you there ?

No. I'm American. I did my time in a combat zone, thank you.


Wiould you be as brave ?

Who knows. I can spell better than you, though.


Are you in the military ?

As I said above - yes. I was an infantryman.



How dare you, sitting in front of your computer in complete safety, judge the actions and awards for bravery ?

I'd rather shake Tpr Cheaters hand than 1000 hands belonging to people like you hellfish6

As I said - I wasn't trying to start a flame war. No doubt Pvt/Trp Cheeter is a brave man - if you'd read my post above you'd realize that I DID NOT MEAN ANY DISRESPECT TO ANYONE but I only found it curious that someone should be awarded a medal (by his government) for something that, to me, doesn't seem to be extraordinary. He found out his buddy was dead. That's it.

And yes, I realize that I'm being an armchair general here. But I'm still entitled to an opinion which, I think, has some validation.

Even though I'm not a Kiwi, I'm still very proud of Trp Cheeter - as he, unlike 95% of the people in this world, decided to serve his country and put the greater good ahead of his own. That alone is worthy of praise. All I'm saying is that I don't see anything especially heroic about his actions in that firefight - he did what any soldier would (or should) do. Look out for his mates.

But, flame away. I can take it. I may be Armchair Generaling here, but at least I've got the gumption to not flame without even bothering to comprehend other people's posts.

[Hellfish]

he didn't just check on his mate, he went back for im while under fire but when the guy turned out dead it was about time to save his own life ... he did the right thing imo otherwise there'd be two dead kiwi's that day

So he was given a medal for not getting shot?

[oldsoak]

- Its not easy going back and checking on a mate while being shot at. You get concious of your own mortality at times like that. As an infantryman, you'd appreciate that running back into the interesting bit of a firefight is not where most blokes would head - especially if its taking you out of the protection the rest of your squad might be able to provide. That lads got bigger b*lls than mine, for sure. Hats off to any bloke that does it be they in Iraq or Timor.
I think it fitting that his courage and mateship be acknowledged.

[armourer]

Hellsquib6, the fact Tpr Cheater is getting a medal says he did something special. The Kiwi Army, unlike the American Army, does not give out medals lightly.



armourer wrote:
Hellfish6 were you there ?


No. I'm American.

Ah....enough said.

[Hellfish]

Simply resolving anything because I'm an American doesn't solve anything at all. And calling me names ("Hellsquib"? Please...) certainly doesn't make you seem any smarter.

If I'm being so pig-headed about this, please enlighten me more than simply dismissing it as the comment of an "ignorant American." As I've said twice already, I think Cheeter is a brave soldier, I just find it odd that someone should get a medal for an action which left a body mutilated. Circumstances obviously prevented Cheeter from recovering the body, but it seems to me like he's been given a medal for discovering that his friend was dead.

Can someone provide a copy of the citation or guidelines for awarding the NZ Gallantry Award?


And armourer, please just shut up if you've got nothing but stupid comments about me to make. I'm honestly trying to understand the circumstances of the award here and you're just making an ass of yourself.

[Hellfish]

- Its not easy going back and checking on a mate while being shot at. You get concious of your own mortality at times like that.

Absolutely! It's certainly difficult.


As an infantryman, you'd appreciate that running back into the interesting bit of a firefight is not where most blokes would head - especially if its taking you out of the protection the rest of your squad might be able to provide.

The impression I'm getting from the article is that Cheeter and the poor Manning were leading the patrol. Normally on patrol, soldiers maintain about a 5m distance. The image I'm getting is that they were both in the lead when they took fire - Manning got hit and Cheeter went to ground (as he rightly should!). I don't think Cheeter was all that far from Manning's body - probably not more than 5m, less depending on terrain. I get the sense that he might have moved a bit, but didn't exactly charge back into the hail of gunfire to get his buddy.


That lads got bigger b*lls than mine, for sure. Hats off to any bloke that does it be they in Iraq or Timor.
I think it fitting that his courage and mateship be acknowledged.

I agree - Cheeter is a better man than most. I hope I'm just misunderstanding the context, as I know most Commonwealth nations give out medals very sparingly (having known a Brit with 20 years' service including the Falklands and Northern Ireland who only had maybe three medals whereas I have 5 medals plus maybe 5 non-medal ribbons from my short time in the US Army) so I'm assuming that Cheeter's medal was well earned. I'm just not seeing extraordinarily heroic actions in the article that was posted. I'm trying to find out the full story, as I'm sure it's buried in there somehow.

[h_rnzir]

what it doesnt really mention is that the initiative due to the lay of the ground lent itself very heavily to the enemy force on top of the feature ...having walked up the feature myself numerous times it was a ideal ambush position for the enemy to contact any kiwi patrols...
the enemy also had the benefit of knowing the ground better than us and so knew likely directions of approach


Leave No One Behind" is a famous Special Forces motto here in America, but it's also a deep seniment amongst all of us servicemen - you simply do not leave anyone behind, even if it costs your own life or limbs.

ok...we practice a "man-down" drill as part of our patrol sops and attempt to recover any injured member in the section...BUT...if the soldier is dead and to attempt to get to him would result in more casualties he will be left there and recovered at a later time....the reason being is we normally work in 7-9 man sections and to carry a cas realistically requires 2 soldiers straightaway thats 2 less rifles engaging the enemy...


The image I'm getting is that they were both in the lead when they took fire -

[armourer]

so I'm assuming that Cheeter's medal was well earned.

Thats something we both agree on then. So stop p*ssing on his parade.

[Hellfish]

what it doesnt really mention is that the initiative due to the lay of the ground lent itself very heavily to the enemy force on top of the feature ...having walked up the feature myself numerous times it was a ideal ambush position for the enemy to contact any kiwi patrols...
the enemy also had the benefit of knowing the ground better than us and so knew likely directions of approach


Leave No One Behind" is a famous Special Forces motto here in America, but it's also a deep seniment amongst all of us servicemen - you simply do not leave anyone behind, even if it costs your own life or limbs.

ok...we practice a "man-down" drill as part of our patrol sops and attempt to recover any injured member in the section...BUT...if the soldier is dead and to attempt to get to him would result in more casualties he will be left there and recovered at a later time....the reason being is we normally work in 7-9 man sections and to carry a cas realistically requires 2 soldiers straightaway thats 2 less rifles engaging the enemy...


The image I'm getting is that they were both in the lead when they took fire -

Manning was the lead scout with cheater as his cover scout..unsure about dist apart but probably due to visibilty and ground no more than 5-10m away

Thank you for that great post. It clears up a lot. woot :D

[Hellfish]

so I'm assuming that Cheeter's medal was well earned.

Thats something we both agree on then. So stop p*ssing on his parade.

Didn't I tell you to shut up unless you had something intelligent to say? Are you still not comprehending what I write? Here... I'll spell it out:

S-H-U-T T-H-E F-U-C-K U-P U-N-T-I-L Y-O-U H-A-V-E S-O-M-E-T-H-I-N-G W-O-R-T-H-W-H-I-L-E T-O S-A-Y

[h_rnzir]

I flew from AUSBAT down to Suai on the day...

Much Respect to the Aussies...AO matilda :lol: :lol:



Thank you for that great post. It clears up a lot

No Probelm :D

[armourer]

Didn't I tell you to shut up

S-H-U-T T-H-E F-U-C-K U-P U-N-T-I-L Y-O-U H-A-V-E S-O-M-E-T-H-I-N-G W-O-R-T-H-W-H-I-L-E T-O S-A-Y

Ah...American....arrogant....threatening.....and a loudmouth...yawn

[Hellfish]

rofl



:bash: :roll:

[expat007]

The young soldier went back for his comrade while under fire and his support (remainder of the patrol) was breaking contact away from the enemy. He showed what would be called "courage under fire" and if
he had been a US serviceman a Bronze star would most certainly have been awarded.

Hellfish do us all a favor and just leave well enough alone, if you knew your question would draw fire then why ask it? Ask if Pvt lynch deserved the slew of medals bestowed on her instead.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Okay, I’ll admit as soon as I read the above posts I had to run outside and start axe kicking my heavy bag, but that was just my gut reaction. After an hour or so I’ve calmed down, so I should be able to set the record straight without hurting anyone’s feelings (heaven forbid).

Hellfish6 wrote,

Am I just missing something? :|

Yes you are. But that’s allright, you've only got the news articles to go over and we all know what the media is like don't we?

First of all the man's name is CHEETAH, not Cheeter, Cheater, etc.

Now, I know the man personally. At the start of 2001 my unit was conducting build up training in preparation to redeploy to ET. As part of that training we spent six weeks in the bush working with the Visual Trackers course that was being run at the time.
The then Pte Cheetah was brought up from 2/1 RNZIR to assist in the instruction of this course. The incident was already widely known of by this time but rumour and conjecture abounded, as always. The official report of the contact was restricted to sergeants and upwards for dissemination for reasons that I will not go into here, however being the cunning stunt that I am I managed to 'appropriate' the document long enough to speed read it and glean the pertinent points.
When we realised who Cheetah was I managed to convince him to take us through the incident in his own words.
At first Pte Cheetah was a little reticent to retell his story, for what would probably have been the 1000th time, but when he understood that we weren't going to sit around, pick holes in his or his sections conduct and generally 'armchair general' him he agreed to give us a presentation on the contact.
Why?, because as any Infantryman who has been on operations will tell you the thing you lack most at the lower level's is information, especially about the enemy.

It’s been four years since he gave that presentation, with no preparation, at the back of a 20X30 tent in the middle of the Pureora state forest. So I’m not going to try and retell the whole story from scratch. I will however fill in the glaring gaps left by the media and clear up a few other misconceptions.


I mean, he was in a firefight and found out his buddy was killed... but then left his buddy behind and by the time they came back to recover the body it had been mutilated?

He was the Lead Scout of his rifle section, what you would call the point man of a squad. On that day due to injury, illness etc, the section consisted of six men rather than the usual nine. The section unwittingly walked into the sentry of a group of militia on top of a feature called Foho Debululik.
Foho Debululik is a scrub and bush clad hill rising 800m above sea level. It is approximately one kilometre east of the border which runs N/S at that point. The surrounding terrain is steep and mountainous and there is only one vehicle road in the area. This road connects Belulik Leten(BL) in the north to Tilomar(TL) in the south. The road runs roughly north/south and comes within 250m of the border in some areas. Foho Debululik dominates a section of this road, the MSR at the time. At the time of the contact the group of militia were in a temporary harbour on the crest of Foho Debululik. NZBATT knew they were in the area and had been tracking them for the last 18-24 hours. There had been no new sightings of the militia group for several hours and Bn command decided that the group had probably moved further east and began shifting assets to regain contact.
The section of which Pte's Cheetah and Manning were a part of were directed back to their previous patrol AO to the north of Foho Debululik. At that point they were to the south west of the summit of the feature about half way up. The section commander decided to cut across the feature along the military crest just to the west of the summit in order to return to his AO. While doing this the scout team; Pte Cheetah lead, Pte Manning cover, were contacted by the militia sentry from their front right. There was little cover and sporadic concealment. The position they were in was a forward slope on a plateau above the rest of the section. Manning was hit almost immediately and dropped to the ground. Cheetah went to ground in cover several metres ahead. The section also went to ground and lost visual contact with the scout team. The weight of fire started to increase as more militia came to the sentry position.
At no time were any militia observed by the section.
The section commander called out to the scout team for a stitrep. Immediately the militia fire switched to the direction of the rest of the section and further increased. After several further attempts to make contact with his scout team the section commander made the decision to withdraw. Understand that Pte Cheetah was armed with a STEYR\M203 whilst Manning had a C-9(Minimi) that was half the sections firepower out of action.
Pte Cheetah meanwhile had heard the rest of his section calling to him and Manning, but had been unwilling to draw militia attention to himself.
He could see part of Mannings body and could tell from the way he was laying that he was either wounded or dead. He heard the rest of his section begin their fighting withdrawal down the hill and realised that he must also make a decision. He crawled closer to Manning’s body until he could clearly view him. He saw that Manning had received a serious wound to the side of his head. He couldn't get close enough to touch him but the wound looked obviously fatal. He then withdrew down the hill on the opposite side of the hill to his section and married up with them about half way down. The whole time he was under fire. After reporting to his section commander the decision was made to withdraw to the road below and radio for reinforcements. The militia at this time appeared to begin following up the section as the weight of fire increased again and became more effective. The section continued with the fighting withdrawal finally breaking contact with 40mm grenades before withdrawing south down the MSR about 1500m where they RVed with another rifle section.



I don't know how the New Zealand Gallantry Medal ranks against other combat medals and their American equivalents (Is it like the US Army Commendation Medal, Bronze Star, Silver, etc.?) and I'm probably going to get severely flamed for this, but it sounds like this medal may have been more political than it was practical. Like somebody needed to make something good come out of a tragedy.

New Zealand went to its own honours and awards system in 1999. Previously it was identical to the British system:
Level 1; Victoria Cross for New Zealand, replaces the Victoria Cross
Level2; New Zealand Gallantry Star (NZGS), replaces the DSO, DCM and CGM.
Level 3; New Zealand Gallantry Decoration, replaces the DSC, MC, MM, DFC, AFC, DFM, AFM.
Level 4; New Zealand Gallantry Medal, replaces the Mention in Despatches, Commendations for Brave Conduct and Valuable Service in the Air

Mate, don't confuse my country with yours. WE don't hand out gallantry medals like candy. The reason so few NCO's/OR's get them is because as in the case of ET so few officers actually went on patrol. Out of sight out of mind.


I'm honestly not trying to stir up anger or resentment here - as a former infantryman I can't fathom leaving behind a dead buddy and then getting a medal for it. "Leave No One Behind" is a famous Special Forces motto here in America, but it's also a deep seniment amongst all of us servicemen - you simply do not leave anyone behind, even if it costs your own life or limbs.

Well, we don't train our soldiers to be robots and mindlessly follow orders unlike other army's. Logic must rule above emotion sometimes. We just can't afford to waste men and neither do we believe in it. Yes, I do believe sacrificing lives for dead bodies is a waste. Doesn't mean to say we take off and leave our 'buddys' at the first 'crack thump'. And as for the "Leave No One Behind" catch phrase the incident that made that famous did eventuate in SF operators being left behind, both living and dead, to be mutilated, brutalised etc. And no I’m not prepared to second guess the commanders on the ground that day even though I did spend six months in Somalia not long afterwards. What right would I have to do that?

None.

The award hinges on the fact that when Pte Cheetah realised his section was withdrawing without him, rather than withdraw himself, which he could have done quite easily, he went back to his mate to check on him and only withdrew when he believed his mate was beyond help. All the while under fire and in an extremely vulnerable position.

A militia harbour was later found approximately half way up Foho Debululik. It had been occupied the night previous to the contact. It contained twenty six bed spaces and was laid out professionally in all round defence. Four large garbage bin liners full of discardable 'sign' were gathered from the site. After the contact, the militia almost immediately withdrew directly west across the border. They suffered at least two, possibly three KIA and 5-6 wounded. The militia group known as 'Lauksaur group' also left a range of equipment including packs and webbing. These included TNI uniforms with KOPASSUS patches on them. The head stamps of the 5.56mm casings identified it as being as the same lots\batches as purchased by TNI from Lapua and matched the exact batches used by the TNI territorial Bn on the opposite side of the border.


All I'm saying is that I don't see anything especially heroic about his actions in that firefight - he did what any soldier would (or should) do. Look out for his mates.


There are many who agree with you. I know in our army we view with contempt other countries who seem hell bent on weighing down their service uniforms with all many of bright, shiny trinkets till their soldiers look like walking xmas trees. But Pte Cheetah earned his award.

I had been up Foho Debululik before the contact on several occasions and as fate would have it about a month after Pte Cheetah gave us his presentation my first patrol on BATT4 was an AO search centred on Foho Debululik. I sat there on the slope where Len Manning died and tried to picture what had happened and what I would have done differently.
Easy to do when its not your life, and more importantly for a commander the lives of your men hanging in the balance.

Everything I've written has come from my memory based on the official report to a certain degree, but more importantly from my recollection of Pte Cheetah's presentation. He was ruthlessly honest and spared no-one in his recitement, not even himself. If there are other versions of the incident that people want to believe, so be it.
There is a fair amount I’ve left out because quite simply few if any of you have the right to judge these men or their actions. Mistakes were made. A few were avoidable, most were not. Such is the nature of combat.


@Hellfish6, I think the reason most people got pissed off with you is because your countries armed forces seem to throw medals around like a lolly scramble at a Santa parade. But you did ask fairly nicely and pointed out that you couldn't understand the reasons why from the information you had so I hope this clears it up.

@armourer, mate don't be so quick to jump on someones ****. Trust me there are some real ****heads on this forum who you will meet given time. Read someones post carefully before flying off the handle.(Cheek of me to say that :roll: )

Well done Pte Cheetah.

Rest In Peace Private Leonard Manning.

Onwards.

[Lokos]

Ngati, are you Maori or islander? If the former is the case: Kia ora! If the latter... just assume that I greeted you in the tongue of your ancestors :)

Thanks for clearing this issue up for Hellfish.

The man got a well deserved medal for bravery under fire. And, no, it was *not* his responsibility to drag a dead body back with him under fire. Does anyone here really think his friend would have wanted him to die for the sake of his corpse?

He did the right thing.

His bravery and the bravery of others like him keep the spirit of the ANZACs going strong.

Salutations, brothers.

Lokos

[Flagg]

Okay, I’ll admit as soon as I read the above posts I had to run outside and start axe kicking my heavy bag, but that was just my gut reaction. After an hour or so I’ve calmed down, so I should be able to set the record straight without hurting anyone’s feelings (heaven forbid).

Hellfish6 wrote,

Am I just missing something? :|

Yes you are. But that’s allright, you've only got the news articles to go over and we all know what the media is like don't we?

First of all the man's name is CHEETAH, not Cheeter, Cheater, etc.

Now, I know the man personally. At the start of 2001 my unit was conducting build up training in preparation to redeploy to ET. As part of that training we spent six weeks in the bush working with the Visual Trackers course that was being run at the time.
The then Pte Cheetah was brought up from 2/1 RNZIR to assist in the instruction of this course. The incident was already widely known of by this time but rumour and conjecture abounded, as always. The official report of the contact was restricted to sergeants and upwards for dissemination for reasons that I will not go into here, however being the cunning stunt that I am I managed to 'appropriate' the document long enough to speed read it and glean the pertinent points.
When we realised who Cheetah was I managed to convince him to take us through the incident in his own words.
At first Pte Cheetah was a little reticent to retell his story, for what would probably have been the 1000th time, but when he understood that we weren't going to sit around, pick holes in his or his sections conduct and generally 'armchair general' him he agreed to give us a presentation on the contact.
Why?, because as any Infantryman who has been on operations will tell you the thing you lack most at the lower level's is information, especially about the enemy.

It’s been four years since he gave that presentation, with no preparation, at the back of a 20X30 tent in the middle of the Pureora state forest. So I’m not going to try and retell the whole story from scratch. I will however fill in the glaring gaps left by the media and clear up a few other misconceptions.


I mean, he was in a firefight and found out his buddy was killed... but then left his buddy behind and by the time they came back to recover the body it had been mutilated?

He was the Lead Scout of his rifle section, what you would call the point man of a squad. On that day due to injury, illness etc, the section consisted of six men rather than the usual nine. The section unwittingly walked into the sentry of a group of militia on top of a feature called Foho Debululik.
Foho Debululik is a scrub and bush clad hill rising 800m above sea level. It is approximately one kilometre east of the border which runs N/S at that point. The surrounding terrain is steep and mountainous and there is only one vehicle road in the area. This road connects Belulik Leten(BL) in the north to Tilomar(TL) in the south. The road runs roughly north/south and comes within 250m of the border in some areas. Foho Debululik dominates a section of this road, the MSR at the time. At the time of the contact the group of militia were in a temporary harbour on the crest of Foho Debululik. NZBATT knew they were in the area and had been tracking them for the last 18-24 hours. There had been no new sightings of the militia group for several hours and Bn command decided that the group had probably moved further east and began shifting assets to regain contact.
The section of which Pte's Cheetah and Manning were a part of were directed back to their previous patrol AO to the north of Foho Debululik. At that point they were to the south west of the summit of the feature about half way up. The section commander decided to cut across the feature along the military crest just to the west of the summit in order to return to his AO. While doing this the scout team; Pte Cheetah lead, Pte Manning cover, were contacted by the militia sentry from their front right. There was little cover and sporadic concealment. The position they were in was a forward slope on a plateau above the rest of the section. Manning was hit almost immediately and dropped to the ground. Cheetah went to ground in cover several metres ahead. The section also went to ground and lost visual contact with the scout team. The weight of fire started to increase as more militia came to the sentry position.
At no time were any militia observed by the section.
The section commander called out to the scout team for a stitrep. Immediately the militia fire switched to the direction of the rest of the section and further increased. After several further attempts to make contact with his scout team the section commander made the decision to withdraw. Understand that Pte Cheetah was armed with a STEYR\M203 whilst Manning had a C-9(Minimi) that was half the sections firepower out of action.
Pte Cheetah meanwhile had heard the rest of his section calling to him and Manning, but had been unwilling to draw militia attention to himself.
He could see part of Mannings body and could tell from the way he was laying that he was either wounded or dead. He heard the rest of his section begin their fighting withdrawal down the hill and realised that he must also make a decision. He crawled closer to Manning’s body until he could clearly view him. He saw that Manning had received a serious wound to the side of his head. He couldn't get close enough to touch him but the wound looked obviously fatal. He then withdrew down the hill on the opposite side of the hill to his section and married up with them about half way down. The whole time he was under fire. After reporting to his section commander the decision was made to withdraw to the road below and radio for reinforcements. The militia at this time appeared to begin following up the section as the weight of fire increased again and became more effective. The section continued with the fighting withdrawal finally breaking contact with 40mm grenades before withdrawing south down the MSR about 1500m where they RVed with another rifle section.



I don't know how the New Zealand Gallantry Medal ranks against other combat medals and their American equivalents (Is it like the US Army Commendation Medal, Bronze Star, Silver, etc.?) and I'm probably going to get severely flamed for this, but it sounds like this medal may have been more political than it was practical. Like somebody needed to make something good come out of a tragedy.

New Zealand went to its own honours and awards system in 1999. Previously it was identical to the British system:
Level 1; Victoria Cross for New Zealand, replaces the Victoria Cross
Level2; New Zealand Gallantry Star (NZGS), replaces the DSO, DCM and CGM.
Level 3; New Zealand Gallantry Decoration, replaces the DSC, MC, MM, DFC, AFC, DFM, AFM.
Level 4; New Zealand Gallantry Medal, replaces the Mention in Despatches, Commendations for Brave Conduct and Valuable Service in the Air

Mate, don't confuse my country with yours. WE don't hand out gallantry medals like candy. The reason so few NCO's/OR's get them is because as in the case of ET so few officers actually went on patrol. Out of sight out of mind.


I'm honestly not trying to stir up anger or resentment here - as a former infantryman I can't fathom leaving behind a dead buddy and then getting a medal for it. "Leave No One Behind" is a famous Special Forces motto here in America, but it's also a deep seniment amongst all of us servicemen - you simply do not leave anyone behind, even if it costs your own life or limbs.

Well, we don't train our soldiers to be robots and mindlessly follow orders unlike other army's. Logic must rule above emotion sometimes. We just can't afford to waste men and neither do we believe in it. Yes, I do believe sacrificing lives for dead bodies is a waste. Doesn't mean to say we take off and leave our 'buddys' at the first 'crack thump'. And as for the "Leave No One Behind" catch phrase the incident that made that famous did eventuate in SF operators being left behind, both living and dead, to be mutilated, brutalised etc. And no I’m not prepared to second guess the commanders on the ground that day even though I did spend six months in Somalia not long afterwards. What right would I have to do that?

None.

The award hinges on the fact that when Pte Cheetah realised his section was withdrawing without him, rather than withdraw himself, which he could have done quite easily, he went back to his mate to check on him and only withdrew when he believed his mate was beyond help. All the while under fire and in an extremely vulnerable position.

A militia harbour was later found approximately half way up Foho Debululik. It had been occupied the night previous to the contact. It contained twenty six bed spaces and was laid out professionally in all round defence. Four large garbage bin liners full of discardable 'sign' were gathered from the site. After the contact, the militia almost immediately withdrew directly west across the border. They suffered at least two, possibly three KIA and 5-6 wounded. The militia group known as 'Lauksaur group' also left a range of equipment including packs and webbing. These included TNI uniforms with KOPASSUS patches on them. The head stamps of the 5.56mm casings identified it as being as the same lots\batches as purchased by TNI from Lapua and matched the exact batches used by the TNI territorial Bn on the opposite side of the border.


All I'm saying is that I don't see anything especially heroic about his actions in that firefight - he did what any soldier would (or should) do. Look out for his mates.


There are many who agree with you. I know in our army we view with contempt other countries who seem hell bent on weighing down their service uniforms with all many of bright, shiny trinkets till their soldiers look like walking xmas trees. But Pte Cheetah earned his award.

I had been up Foho Debululik before the contact on several occasions and as fate would have it about a month after Pte Cheetah gave us his presentation my first patrol on BATT4 was an AO search centred on Foho Debululik. I sat there on the slope where Len Manning died and tried to picture what had happened and what I would have done differently.
Easy to do when its not your life, and more importantly for a commander the lives of your men hanging in the balance.

Everything I've written has come from my memory based on the official report to a certain degree, but more importantly from my recollection of Pte Cheetah's presentation. He was ruthlessly honest and spared no-one in his recitement, not even himself. If there are other versions of the incident that people want to believe, so be it.
There is a fair amount I’ve left out because quite simply few if any of you have the right to judge these men or their actions. Mistakes were made. A few were avoidable, most were not. Such is the nature of combat.


@Hellfish6, I think the reason most people got pissed off with you is because your countries armed forces seem to throw medals around like a lolly scramble at a Santa parade. But you did ask fairly nicely and pointed out that you couldn't understand the reasons why from the information you had so I hope this clears it up.

@armourer, mate don't be so quick to jump on someones ****. Trust me there are some real ****heads on this forum who you will meet given time. Read someones post carefully before flying off the handle.(Cheek of me to say that :roll: )

Well done Pte Cheetah.

Rest In Peace Private Leonard Manning.

Onwards.

Definitely one of the best posts I've read on this forum yet.

Tumatauenga Waiata

Tumatauenga
Tumatauenga E Karanga E Te Iwi E

Kua Eke Mai Nei
Kua Eke Mai Nei Ki Runga Te Marae E

Mauria Mai Ra
Mauria Mai Ra E Nga Mate O Te Motu E

Me Nga Tini Roimata
Me Nga Tini Roimata E Maranga Whanui E

Titiro E Nga Iwi
Titiro E Nga Iwi E Nga Mahi O Te Motu
E Hora Ake Ne E

Ruana Te Whenua
Ruana Te Whenua Whati Whati Te Moana

Aue Te Aroha
Aue Te Aroha Te Mamae I Ahau E

Ruana Te Whenua Whati Whati Hi

[digrar]

Thanks for that Ngati Tumatuenga. I've only heard the dribs and drabs that came over the mountain range at the time and what I have read in the media, so it's nice to hear it only once removed from the hourses mouth.

[Hellfish]

The young soldier went back for his comrade while under fire and his support (remainder of the patrol) was breaking contact away from the enemy. He showed what would be called "courage under fire" and if
he had been a US serviceman a Bronze star would most certainly have been awarded.

Hellfish do us all a favor and just leave well enough alone, if you knew your question would draw fire then why ask it? Ask if Pvt lynch deserved the slew of medals bestowed on her instead.

Hell no she didn't deserve them. I asked the question because I thought it valid. There aren't stupid questions, only stupid people. But thanks to some of the posts here, I'm a little less stupid now. Thanks.

[Hellfish]

@Hellfish6, I think the reason most people got pissed off with you is because your countries armed forces seem to throw medals around like a lolly scramble at a Santa parade. But you did ask fairly nicely and pointed out that you couldn't understand the reasons why from the information you had so I hope this clears it up.

Thank you so very much for your post - it clears everything up. I now understand the tactical situation and the circumstances of Pvt/Tpr Cheetah and I now understand how and why he was awarded his medal.

It is certainly deserved. Thank you for your post - easily one of the best I've read anywhere on the internet.

[Imshi-Yallah]

Was this the bloke that the Irish contingent recovered, minus his ears?

Poor bloke, hope fcuker who took them for the reward got something nasty for his $5,000

[Ballistic]

Excellent post Ngati, thanks heaps for that. Amazing stuff. Pte Cheetah certainly did earn his medal.

[Opening Batsman]

Yep, great post Ngati. :)
One thing I have noticed is that medal citations often make the deed sound rather tame and boring, even when the act was extremely un-tame and un-boring.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Was this the bloke that the Irish contingent recovered, minus his ears?

Poor bloke, hope fcuker who took them for the reward got something nasty for his $5,000


Was this the bloke that the Irish contingent recovered, minus his ears?

Poor bloke, hope fcuker who took them for the reward got something nasty for his $5,000

That is an interesting comment. Moughoun wrote a few months ago that he had read in the Irish army magazine that a patrol of Irish Rangers had recovered Pte Mannings body. I don't recall reading in the official report anything about Irish involvement nor have I heard anything from anyone else who was involved in the incident in any way.
The contact occured in B Coy's AO and the Irish contingent were based in Taroman twenty odd kilometres to the north in D Coy's AO. As far as I am aware, and I could be wrong, the only Irish Rangers in ET were the unit that made up the first contingent. When they rotated after six months they were replaced by a rifle platoon. I was in Suai when they came through and I do remember that clearly.
In any case, it was decided by Bn command that nothing less than a Coy sized force would attempt to gain contact with the militia group and recover Manning's body. It took the rest of the day to concentrate the force which was made up of a platoon from B Coy, a platoon from D Coy and a composite platoon from the Bn FOB in Suai. The platoon from D Coy may have had an element from the Irish contingent in it but as I said I've never heard it mentioned.

Due to some difficulties with the Air Force the troops weren't in position until late afternoon the day of the contact. The plan had been to conduct a two up, one in depth advance to contact but the terrain was too restrictive. After reaching the summit and clearing the area Pte Mannings body could not be immediately found.
The story goes that the B Coy CSM WO2 Burgess was standing near the crest of Foho Debululik and said "Where are you Len?" or words to that effect, when a shaft of sunlit lit up a patch of ground a few metres away where Mannings body lay. His webbing had been looted and his trauma kit opened and some of the contents used including the IV set although not on him.

His throat had been slashed and his ears removed.

To say that the New Zealand Battalion was enraged over the incident and the mutilation of Mannings body in particular would be an understatement. From then on things changed dramatically both in terms of NZBATT SOP's and attitudes towards the Indonesian's and the militia. A number of incidents took place along the border, many of which weren't publicised.
'What happens in the field, stays in the field' as the saying goes.
Suffice to say a number of militia were killed in several successful ambushes along the river systems in Cova Lima district.
By the time the fourth NZBATT rotation deployed to East Timor to cover the period of the first democratic elections in september 2001, the militia had all but ceased to be a threat in Cova Lima district of Sector West.

After a TNI sergeant fired at a W Coy patrol from inside West Timor and was promptly cut to pieces with a couple of section fire control orders the TNI didn't bother us either. Apparently the TNI Bn found the Kiwi's 'too intimidating' :roll:

[sp2c]

So he was given a medal for not getting shot?
I think he was given a medal for looking after his body while getting shot at.

[Imshi-Yallah]

The first two contingents were ARW, the remainder were recce platoons drawn from various infantry battalions, according to the Irish independent (not an army magazine) it was 2Bn recce that found the remains.

It wouldnt be unknown for them to be pulled from their normal AO for an operation or to operate as part of a larger element since they operated as a platoon of the NZ battalion not an independent element.

[h_rnzir]

Yep in agreeance with ngati..To the Best of my knowledge ,from my sources, it was Bravo Coy 2/1 RNZIR personnel that found the body.


After a TNI sergeant fired at a W Coy patrol from inside West Timor and was promptly cut to pieces with a couple of section fire control orders


a couple??? FCO's??? we both know otherwise mate.. :roll:
but thats another story... :lol:

[Belrick]

rumour i heard from a mate in the NZ inf was that he was still alive when his squad mates retreated, they tortured him then slit his throat.

Of course he could be full of it, but would of been disgusting if true.

[Opening Batsman]

rumour i heard from a mate in the NZ inf was that he was still alive when his squad mates retreated, they tortured him then slit his throat.

Of course he could be full of it, but would of been disgusting if true.

It may be possible, when Pte. Cheetah crawled forwards to look I think he said he was either dead or badly wounded, so maybe he was alive. But I am sure if that was the case a post-mortem would have determined which one it was that killed him - and an even bigger stink would have been made if he wasn't already dead.

[PrincessRAR]

It's nearly five years ago now, you would have still been ****ting yellow back then mate. :P
We had a change of ROE around the same time it happend. We had just had two militia grenade attacks and hadn't been able to respond the way we would have liked to, with the change in ROE and the stories of Leo Mannings mutilation going around there was a definate change in attitude in my platoon and I imagine the rest of the unit as well.

HAHA you would have been over with 6 hey...
Absolute and utter bull****. Twice I was over there on rotation, twice NADA!!!
6 goes over and every time there's always action...

Talk about pissd boys from 5/7 haha

[PrincessRAR]

I'm not going to pick anyone here,
but what that man did was what I think i would want any of my section to do.

That is not to say he is undeserving, i think he is entirely, he went back for a mate under fire - who was to know if he was still alive.

I think no man can know what he would do unless he himself is exposed to that situation.

and Ngati, you boys did a great job in ET, very professional soldiers.
Almost ALMOST as good as us aussies ;)

[Tally Man]

I am American and the guy did it for his buddy not a medal and no matter what that takes balls!

By the way what does is the rank of Trooper is that an E-2?

[Zorro C9]

Fuc'ked if anyone can work out your rank system mate p-)

[Tally Man]

What?

[Zorro C9]

I mean it's quite possible the US has the most complicated rank system in the world.

[digrar]

Gunners, Signalers, Troopers, Sappers are all the same rank as Private. Some of the Corps just have different names for their junior soldiers. Commonwealth Armies don't have grades of Private, within the unit everyone knows who the senior and junior privates are and treat them accordingly.

[gruntsuck]

F%ckin lids, Half jacks and full jack ;)

[digrar]

Then snake and anybody higher up than that is a grumpy old bastard :P .

[gruntsuck]

f#ckin RSM's % CSM's stop all the fun to..... And the bosses dont get me started.

[Tally Man]

Thanks for the clarification as for our rank system it was once based on the English but in recent years I feel the same it has really gotten out of hand, don't get me started on the US Navy ranks!

Anyway good talking to people on the other side of the world I have done some training with the English I was very impressed I am sure I would with the Aussies and Kiwis as well, stay sharp!

[PrincessRAR]

Trooper in Aust. which is the same as NZ is either a bucket driver (ie cavalry reg.)
or one the elite Regiment member,

It all adds up to a private in the infantry.

Aint nothing wrong with RSM's gruntsucks, they are the men, tried and proven you dont get there without balls and experiance.

CSM's yeah iffy - and aint nothing wrong with a good boss :lol: depending on his rank haha.

They get above captain and they swell in the upper parts of the body.

[Tally Man]

Sounds like the same thing here in the States F'''' up and move up!

[PrincessRAR]

Gunners, Signalers, Troopers, Sappers are all the same rank as Private. Some of the Corps just have different names for their junior soldiers. Commonwealth Armies don't have grades of Private, within the unit everyone knows who the senior and junior privates are and treat them accordingly.

Only PTE(R) hehe!!
PTE
Then after a year to 18 months PTE proficient even though its noe initialed its still a recognized rank.
Although they dont go around calling people private proficient.

Interestingly enough, i rejected lance jack stayed private 8-10 more months i cant remember exactly then did the cpl cse and never looked back.

What rank did you end up leavning as dig? and how long was your service period?

Be interesting to knwo if we know some of the same people.

[Tally Man]

I am what you call a mustang in navy terms spent 3 years enlisted made cpl and then the Army paid for my college right now I am an 0-3 I have 10 in total.
So I guess I have seen the "light and dark side of the force"!