The real Bravo two zero?

[Staal Burger]

Forgive me if this question was raised before, but I noticed this book in the local store:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0304365548.02._PE20_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

The author refutes both Andy McNab and Chris Ryan's accounts of the now famous mission. On the back cover are comments by book critics, including the following:
"Infuriating!" (Andy McNab)

I found it on amazon.co.uk and amazon.ca but not on amazon.com.

Scroll down on the UK Amazon site, and you find a book review by "Michael Asher FRSL from Nairobi, none Kenya" which may or may not be the author.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0304365548/202-4546034-9104623

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

3 out of 5 stars Truth & Lies, October 17, 2004
Reviewer: Michael Asher FRSL from Nairobi, none Kenya
Many people have criticised me for being too gullible as far as the Iraqis are concerned. However, it may be worth pointing out that there is a big difference between the Iraqis I interviewed and Ryan and McNab - I never caught them out in a lie. Ryan and McNab's versions of events were so completely in contrast, that both could not be true. The Iraqis I talked to, some of them over a long period, and at unguarded moments, were always entirely consistent in their story. They also often told their tales in front of large audiences of families and friends who would have known if they were lying.
Now this does not prove that they were telling the truth. Perhaps they were not. I exercised the same judgement that anyone else would exercise in the circumstances - journalists and police investigators do this all the time. I often gave Ryan and McNab the benefit of the doubt even when I suspected they were not telling the truth. All I can say is, in most cases, I felt that my witnesses were telling the truth to the best of my judgement.
They were certainly more convincing than the accounts of two people who not only disagreed over distances and numbers, but whose accounts were both different from what they said at their official debrief. How could McNab possibly have mistaken two kilometres for twenty?
Unlike those who have criticised me- and unlike Ryan and Mcnab - I know the Bedouin. I speak fluent Arabic and lived for years with a Bedouin tribe. Those people who assume my witnesses were lying 'simply because they were Iraqis' only know the Arabs from the propaganda put forth by the media. This has no connection with the reality.
Despite what they try to tell you in the news reports, the Arabs are not all demons, but real people. The Arab Bedouin, in fact, do not live by the same standards as we do - they live by a strict code of honour. One might ask if the governments who took us into war on a pretext that turned out not to be true could say the same. Just because a point of view is plugged again and again in the media does not make it true - what you are getting is political ideology, not reality. If I had to choose between believing a Bedouin and Mr. Bush I know whom I would choose.
Even if all my witnesses were lying - which I admit is not impossible - the fact remains that McNab and Ryan were not truthful in their accounts. I would remind all those millions who bought these books that they were sold as true accounts of the SAS in action. In any other business there would be a word for that.
Anyone who wishes to prove that the Iraqis I interviewed were making it up is free to investigate the matter for himself. If I am wrong then I will be the first to admit it. But let us not make judgements on spurious racist grounds imposed on us by the media - to do so is to dehumanise others as well as ourselves.

What do you think? Should I even bother to read it?

IMO it's a bit strange that this guy can claim to know the real truth if he wasn't even part of the mission. At least from what I've read on the front & back covers in the store, I couldn't find any info stating that the author was actually there at the time.

Comments?

[Tate]

Interesting.

[TarwarWarrior]

The book was quite a decent read but I wonder if the author has a bit more of an axe to grind then he lets on. After reading B20, The One That Got Away, and this, you do get to believe that things were certainly embellished. McNab`s seems to be the more thruthful account over Ryan`s.

Anyhow, its a good read and IMO, worth picking up.

-TW, out!-

[Fargin]

The truth is somewhat subjective. I like that he claims ownership of the truth, just because he speaks arabic and bedouins live by a strict code of honor.

I'd call The real B20 a honorst attempt to make a buck.

We'll never know and I'll never care.

[Mailman]

Oh yeah McNab and that other guy have some big axes to grind alright!

When I first saw the Real B20 book I thought it was just some guy out there trying to be a spoil sport but after finishing Radcliffs book it opened my eyes even more.

B20 was at best based on real events...which really doesnt detract from the over all story of survival though.

Mailman

[SHAM]

I read the book and watched the tv series of the guy "following the tracks" of those that were part of Bravo two zero, what i found interesting was they got a real old looking minimi from some iraqi farmer amongst other stuff the farmer had. And the APC turned out to be a a piece of yellow earth moving machinery? Doesnt undermind what the guys went through in my eyes, just a bit sad they embelished it.

[Yosy]

Buy "Soldier Five: the real story of B20" written by two other members of B20. It finally sets the record straight

[SHAM]

Buy "Soldier Five: the real story of B20" written by two other members of B20. It finally sets the record straight

I did, but for some reason the sensationalislm of the Andy McNab version and the Chris Ryan version stands out more in my mind lol.
Was'nt chris ryan territorial sas oringinally, i have always been quite impressed by his walk out of iraq considering that.

[kayaker]

Having read both the one that got away and B20 (and several books mentioning/evaluating the mission) I find it an essential read. In the end it is up to you how you make your mind up. But not only did the author write about it, it was also filmed and a picture tell a thousand words.

It blew my mind away as he presents some substancial evidence in the book. Now I believe that B20 should be listed under the "fiction" section.

Try and getting it from your local libary. Enjoy!

[Yosy]

Buy "Soldier Five: the real story of B20" written by two other members of B20. It finally sets the record straight

I did, but for some reason the sensationalislm of the Andy McNab version and the Chris Ryan version stands out more in my mind lol.
Was'nt chris ryan territorial sas oringinally, i have always been quite impressed by his walk out of iraq considering that.

What's the score on the book mate? By the way, and I can't stress this enough, I love Guiness. :D

[Johnny_H02]

Great book I coudlnt put it down and I read it just after reading Mcnabs book.

[kayaker]

Same here I think I read it in a day and half. Got it on saturday....

Does anyone feel betrayed by McNab? And the 2 paragraphs by Chris Ryan saying how he shot a LAW on a car and bumped a 203 on the other does anyone actually beleive that?!

On the subject of books I absolutely love Chickenhawk. Its about a vietnam era Huey pilot who did a tour in 'Nam.

Ryan

[Gordon]

nice hijack of the thread there with the Chickenhawk thing ... i read it, loved it too ... ;) ... just finished reading another book about a vietnam pilot called "Rattle one-seven" by a guy called Chuck Gross, if you liked Chickenhawk you'll like this.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.

[moughoun]

Does anyone feel betrayed by McNab? And the 2 paragraphs by Chris Ryan saying how he shot a LAW on a car and bumped a 203 on the other does anyone actually beleive that?!

feel betrayed because of what?......I'm not or ever have been in the regiment, I'll take a guess and say you weren't either, no one forced you to buy or read or believe anything in those book's, so they put in what 10.........11 year's in the SAS and then wrote a largely fictional book that a lot of people bought because of the association with the SAS, and made a **** load of money off, tough luck, 3 men died, they are the only one's with a right to feel betrayed for anything.......not you nor me or any other person who didn't go on that mission

[PrincessRAR]

Does anyone feel betrayed by McNab? And the 2 paragraphs by Chris Ryan saying how he shot a LAW on a car and bumped a 203 on the other does anyone actually beleive that?!

feel betrayed because of what?......I'm not or ever have been in the regiment, I'll take a guess and say you weren't either, no one forced you to buy or read or believe anything in those book's, so they put in what 10.........11 year's in the SAS and then wrote a largely fictional book that a lot of people bought because of the association with the SAS, and made a **** load of money off, tough luck, 3 men died, they are the only one's with a right to feel betrayed for anything.......not you nor me or any other person who didn't go on that mission

Well spoken...who cares if things were amped up, even if you put the book down to its very roots, even if what Michael Asher said (and believe me he'd be trying to earn a buck) that experaince would still scare the **** out of me, remeber they are only human....

[SHAM]

For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.

Yeah i read that..its a very good read. He did an interview on sky news recently too, seemed like a regular guy. No embelishment.

[moughoun]

For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.

Yeah i read that..its a very good read. He did an interview on sky news recently too, seemed like a regular guy. No embelishment.

on the other hand, it has been put forward by other ex SAS that Peter Radcliffe was the biggeset pos to ever walk the planet, read Victor two, he was disliked by some, but make your own mind up, I personally have stopped reading book's written by ex member's, I have not and will not read soldier 5, or any other's, it just all seem's like pointless bull**** now

[kayaker]

Well guessed, Im not a member of the regiment.

McNAb stated in hs book he had been in several large firefights killing Iraqi soldiers. Yet there is no evidence that this ever happened. Did you think Micheal sucked it out of his thum??? Someow managed to make it all up that there was no firefight? If someone tells he he killed at least a hundered men then you discover he didnt. You're beingl lied to. And if you believe that Ryan killed those men while on the run well....then you believe anything.

I found Sabre Squadron a decent book. Havent read any books by the RSM as I heard he was one big arsehole and when he was interviewed he confirmed it. Never felt the urge to try his books.

[PrincessRAR]

Well guessed, Im not a member of the regiment.

McNAb stated in hs book he had been in several large firefights killing Iraqi soldiers. Yet there is no evidence that this ever happened. Did you think Micheal sucked it out of his thum??? Someow managed to make it all up that there was no firefight? If someone tells he he killed at least a hundered men then you discover he didnt. You're beingl lied to. And if you believe that Ryan killed those men while on the run well....then you believe anything.

I found Sabre Squadron a decent book. Havent read any books by the RSM as I heard he was one big arsehole and when he was interviewed he confirmed it. Never felt the urge to try his books.

Who cares if he was disliked. He was a ****ing RSM of the SAS!!! He did something right.
Asif he cares hes a very rich man now, being in a unit where many will dream of serving and never actulaly make it.
But jesus the RSM, come on who likes RSM's ;)

[moughoun]

Well guessed, Im not a member of the regiment.

McNAb stated in hs book he had been in several large firefights killing Iraqi soldiers. Yet there is no evidence that this ever happened. Did you think Micheal sucked it out of his thum??? Someow managed to make it all up that there was no firefight? If someone tells he he killed at least a hundered men then you discover he didnt. You're beingl lied to. And if you believe that Ryan killed those men while on the run well....then you believe anything.

I found Sabre Squadron a decent book. Havent read any books by the RSM as I heard he was one big arsehole and when he was interviewed he confirmed it. Never felt the urge to try his books.
you've mistaken me for someone who care if mcnabb or the other's lied, I don't and frankly Micheal Asher was in it for the money too, you think he was going to get paid to write the "real bravo two zero" and then just confirm the other book's what would be the point, no he needed something to sell his, and what better way then to juice his one up, mcnabb lied, Ryan lied,Vice phillpe was betrayed by Ryan ect ect, the whole BTZ thing is now just a money making myth

[moughoun]

Well guessed, Im not a member of the regiment.

McNAb stated in hs book he had been in several large firefights killing Iraqi soldiers. Yet there is no evidence that this ever happened. Did you think Micheal sucked it out of his thum??? Someow managed to make it all up that there was no firefight? If someone tells he he killed at least a hundered men then you discover he didnt. You're beingl lied to. And if you believe that Ryan killed those men while on the run well....then you believe anything.

I found Sabre Squadron a decent book. Havent read any books by the RSM as I heard he was one big arsehole and when he was interviewed he confirmed it. Never felt the urge to try his books.

Who cares if he was disliked. He was a f*** RSM of the SAS!!! He did something right.
Asif he cares hes a very rich man now, being in a unit where many will dream of serving and never actulaly make it.
But jesus the RSM, come on who likes RSM's ;)
it seemed to go beyond dislike, but I don't know I wasn't there

[M!KE]

Out of interest, have any of you read Michael Asher's other book "Shoot to Kill". It gives his story of how he progressed through the Parachute Regiment, SAS and the Special Patrol Group in Northern Ireland.

I can recommend this book, having read it several times.

M!KE

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0304366285/ref=ase_wwwlink-software-21/202-0980368-3635817

[kayaker]

Mike,
I have read it and it was good. I would also like to read his experiences when he travelled through the desert. A very knowledgable man from whom I can learn a lot

moughoun,
It wasnt even Micheal's intention to prove McNab wrong just to see what happened to one soldier of the patrol. If you can't see the basic underlying facts of the book then you're damned.

Ryan

[moughoun]

Mike,

moughoun,
It wasnt even Micheal's intention to prove McNab wrong just to see what happened to one soldier of the patrol. If you can't see the basic underlying facts of the book then you're damned.

Ryan
I was damned well before I read that book, believe what you want I'm not bothered

[Sabre]

SHAM wrote:


Buy "Soldier Five: the real story of B20" written by two other members of B20. It finally sets the record straight

I did, but for some reason the sensationalislm of the Andy McNab version and the Chris Ryan version stands out more in my mind lol.
Was'nt chris ryan territorial sas oringinally, i have always been quite impressed by his walk out of iraq considering that.

Yeah, 'Chris' was in 23 SAS(R), when the 'Newcastle' squadron used to be out in Prudhoe. He used to train by putting rocks in the top of his bergen and running up a hill in the Cheviots, then dumping them on the cairn at the top again and again...apparently.... ;)

As far as the books go, some are embelished, all represent the author's standpoint.

The regiment is full of driven, opinionated individuals who don't allways work smoothly together. There is also a serious amount of politics involved. It sounds like there was a bit of a fued between the RSM and certain individuals in 'A' squadron. These individuals were obviously of a more cautious disposition and wanted to go slow, too slow for the RSM it seems, so he went in and shook things up. RSMs are not well liked in any unit; they're not meant to be! ;)

[Mailman]

For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.

Yeah i read that..its a very good read. He did an interview on sky news recently too, seemed like a regular guy. No embelishment.

I saw that interview...it was bloody good. They tried to pin him against a wall over cancelling the search for B20...I think he said that had they continued the search they were risking the lives of many more men...or something along those lines, not to mention the ****ty weather that was going on as well.

The funniest bit was when the interviewer tried to imply he had double standards about how ex members arent allowed to publish books yet he was. His reply was, with a wry smile, "who dares wins" rofl

From what I can tell he is the kind of person that is very focussed and when he wants something done he gets it done regardless of what others feel or think. This probably rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way.

Mailman

[Yosy]

For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.

Well, the way that "Saber Squadron" treats him, that's no suprise. Personally, read Spence's other book "All Necessary Measures". I don't think he bull****ed anything.


The funniest bit was when the interviewer tried to imply he had double standards about how ex members arent allowed to publish books yet he was. His reply was, with a wry smile, "who dares wins"


That just confirms what Sabre Squdron said of him: a "gung-ho" kind of guy. "Who dares wins": that's bull****. WTF does he mean by that?

[king_nothing100]

Anyone see the telly programme with asher? Him hanging on every word of the Iraqis? saying they were getting tea and not getting the ever living **** kicked out of them? Do you think they would go on the telly and say "ohh the Army, police, and secret police who captured them kicked seven shades of **** out of them" and not expect Saddam or Comical Ali to have access to the tapes asher's crew had made?

[big_les]

Rather amusingly Mr 'McNab' was on 'Desert Island Disks' this morning on BBC Radio 4. Of all the places to come across the bloke, I never expected that one!!!!

He chose 'Should I stay or should I go' by the Clash, 'In the air tonight' by Phil Collins, a track by Punjabi MC, and the others escape me. You may well be able to listen to it on the BBC Radio 4 section of their website.

He claimed on the programme that his figure of 250 dead Iraqi soldiers came from a CIA report of the incident. Is this verifiable?

[Mailman]

[quote=Ngati Tumatuenga]For another spin on the incident, read 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Radcliffe(sp?). He was the RSM of 22 SAS during Desert Storm and debunks many of the myths surrounding B20 and also trashs a couple of other books written by ex-Regiment guys, 'Sabre Squadron' and I forget the other one.


Well, the way that "Saber Squadron" treats him, that's no suprise. Personally, read Spence's other book "All Necessary Measures". I don't think he bull****ed anything.

Wasnt this spence guy one of the cry babies from Radcliffes book?


The funniest bit was when the interviewer tried to imply he had double standards about how ex members arent allowed to publish books yet he was. His reply was, with a wry smile, "who dares wins"



That just confirms what Sabre Squdron said of him: a "gung-ho" kind of guy. "Who dares wins": that's bull****. WTF does he mean by that?

He meant...he took the risk and got away with it. rofl

Mailman

[Yosy]

Wasnt this spence guy one of the cry babies from Radcliffes book?


Explain.

Even so (from personal experience) when there's a group of people doing something that all of them are professionals of; and one has doubts about something, you should take his/hers advice, because very often, they are correct and all the rest of them are wrong.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Wasnt this spence guy one of the cry babies from Radcliffes book?


Explain.

Even so (from personal experience) when there's a group of people doing something that all of them are professionals of; and one has doubts about something, you should take his/hers advice, because very often, they are correct and all the rest of them are wrong.

In a military unit you have a commander. He/she may or may not take advice as he/she see's fit. But at the end of the day its his/her responsibility to command. That means making a decision which in a group environment will never be to everyones liking.

Yosy wrote,

Well, the way that "Saber Squadron" treats him, that's no suprise. Personally, read Spence's other book "All Necessary Measures". I don't think he bull****ed anything.

I have read both books and I don't see how anyone could figure out whether he bull****ted or not without having been through the same incident(s) themselves.

As already stated in a military unit, no-one likes the RSM or his equivalent. Command in the military isn't a personality contest.

[Yosy]

A thing that I noticed: a lot of people bash McNab's B20. But no-one said anything about "Immediate Action".

[kayaker]

Absolutely loved IA. But I believe that is his only book which should come under the "non fiction" section.

Was a great laugh from start to finish. Now just waiting for the second part. It was just too short.

Also enjoyed listening to the interview on R4. Like Ryan he comes accross as a friendly laid back guy. Had to laugh how the presenter could not get over the fact that he would kill for money again if he found himself back down.

[boy1000]

One of my friends who have been in 22nd SAS for ages say that there never have been a Brovo 2 Zero, it is all fictions.

While we are at the subject, look who is Andy McNab's father.


Forgive me if this question was raised before, but I noticed this book in the local store:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0304365548.02._PE20_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

The author refutes both Andy McNab and Chris Ryan's accounts of the now famous mission. On the back cover are comments by book critics, including the following:
"Infuriating!" (Andy McNab)

I found it on amazon.co.uk and amazon.ca but not on amazon.com.

Scroll down on the UK Amazon site, and you find a book review by "Michael Asher FRSL from Nairobi, none Kenya" which may or may not be the author.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0304365548/202-4546034-9104623

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

3 out of 5 stars Truth & Lies, October 17, 2004
Reviewer: Michael Asher FRSL from Nairobi, none Kenya
Many people have criticised me for being too gullible as far as the Iraqis are concerned. However, it may be worth pointing out that there is a big difference between the Iraqis I interviewed and Ryan and McNab - I never caught them out in a lie. Ryan and McNab's versions of events were so completely in contrast, that both could not be true. The Iraqis I talked to, some of them over a long period, and at unguarded moments, were always entirely consistent in their story. They also often told their tales in front of large audiences of families and friends who would have known if they were lying.
Now this does not prove that they were telling the truth. Perhaps they were not. I exercised the same judgement that anyone else would exercise in the circumstances - journalists and police investigators do this all the time. I often gave Ryan and McNab the benefit of the doubt even when I suspected they were not telling the truth. All I can say is, in most cases, I felt that my witnesses were telling the truth to the best of my judgement.
They were certainly more convincing than the accounts of two people who not only disagreed over distances and numbers, but whose accounts were both different from what they said at their official debrief. How could McNab possibly have mistaken two kilometres for twenty?
Unlike those who have criticised me- and unlike Ryan and Mcnab - I know the Bedouin. I speak fluent Arabic and lived for years with a Bedouin tribe. Those people who assume my witnesses were lying 'simply because they were Iraqis' only know the Arabs from the propaganda put forth by the media. This has no connection with the reality.
Despite what they try to tell you in the news reports, the Arabs are not all demons, but real people. The Arab Bedouin, in fact, do not live by the same standards as we do - they live by a strict code of honour. One might ask if the governments who took us into war on a pretext that turned out not to be true could say the same. Just because a point of view is plugged again and again in the media does not make it true - what you are getting is political ideology, not reality. If I had to choose between believing a Bedouin and Mr. Bush I know whom I would choose.
Even if all my witnesses were lying - which I admit is not impossible - the fact remains that McNab and Ryan were not truthful in their accounts. I would remind all those millions who bought these books that they were sold as true accounts of the SAS in action. In any other business there would be a word for that.
Anyone who wishes to prove that the Iraqis I interviewed were making it up is free to investigate the matter for himself. If I am wrong then I will be the first to admit it. But let us not make judgements on spurious racist grounds imposed on us by the media - to do so is to dehumanise others as well as ourselves.

What do you think? Should I even bother to read it?

IMO it's a bit strange that this guy can claim to know the real truth if he wasn't even part of the mission. At least from what I've read on the front & back covers in the store, I couldn't find any info stating that the author was actually there at the time.

Comments?

[Argyll]

If you've ever met the A Squadron guys,you'd know exactly who to believe! ;)

Can anyone say "Financial Gain"?

A lot of books were written because there's always someone wanting to put the record straight!!

and RSM's job in a time of war is POW's and rations........not commanding patrols on the ground.

The RSM of 22 was WIA during an assault in A-stan,and the questions were again raised about the role of the highest ranking SNCO in the Regiment as to his role on the battlefield!

[Gringo]

The RSM of 22 was WIA during an assault in A-stan,and the questions were again raised about the role of the highest ranking SNCO in the Regiment as to his role on the battlefield!

Shot in the calf wasn't he?

Hey mate
You back from Basra or still there?

[Argyll]

The RSM of 22 was WIA during an assault in A-stan,and the questions were again raised about the role of the highest ranking SNCO in the Regiment as to his role on the battlefield!

Shot in the calf wasn't he?

Hey mate
You back from Basra or still there?

Yes in the back of the leg,which is odd as the contact was to the front!! ;)
Not back from Basra,I've only just arrived here,and will be here for the next 9 weeks!

[king_nothing100]

One of my friends who have been in 22nd SAS for ages say that there never have been a Brovo 2 Zero, it is all fictions.

Care to elaborate on this?

[kayaker]

HE was leading from the rear and when combat arrived on the scene he suddenly remembered he left a vital piece of gear at the trucks.

[Argyll]

HE was leading from the rear and when combat arrived on the scene he suddenly remembered he left a vital piece of gear at the trucks.

Wrong!

The contact had aready began when the RSM's party arrived at the Start Line,they were advancing under fire when he was shot in the leg,if you refer to Mark Urban's book,and I know some blokes from A sqd who were there,who said it was a gang fukc because hardly any of the blokes knew how to do Section/Platoon/Squadron attacks!!

[Gringo]

HE was leading from the rear and when combat arrived on the scene he suddenly remembered he left a vital piece of gear at the trucks.

Wrong!

The contact had aready began when the RSM's party arrived at the Start Line,they were advancing under fire when he was shot in the leg,if you refer to Mark Urban's book,and I know some blokes from A sqd who were there,who said it was a gang fukc because hardly any of the blokes knew how to do Section/Platoon/Squadron attacks!!

Surely they must had known? I mean some of them must had known, as they would had come from the Infantry before?

[Argyll]

yes but there's also a lot of Corps people there,a mate of mine said that a lot of the Infantry blokes and most of the Corps guys felt that after selection, Section Battle drills were below them,and that they wanted to wear the "Black kit" more, and that basic Infantry tactics were below them!!

[boy1000]

One of my friends who have been in 22nd SAS for ages say that there never have been a Brovo 2 Zero, it is all fictions.

Care to elaborate on this?

Please remenber I am a guy from Scandinavia, therefore with hesitations I will describes what I have been hearing over the years.

I will not be the person who is spreading rumours. Some died and I will honour these guys. But, my opinion is you do NOT write books.

There is the new Regiment, and the old Regiment. The new Regiment are seen by the old guys, blokes who are in the Regiment for 3 years and then goto the security companies in London, and earn serious money.

By many it is believed that you will become a good soldier after minimum 5 years.

Please remember how few go through the selections

[kayaker]

HE was leading from the rear and when combat arrived on the scene he suddenly remembered he left a vital piece of gear at the trucks.

Wrong!

The contact had aready began when the RSM's party arrived at the Start Line,they were advancing under fire when he was shot in the leg,if you refer to Mark Urban's book,and I know some blokes from A sqd who were there,who said it was a gang fukc because hardly any of the blokes knew how to do Section/Platoon/Squadron attacks!!

Sorry, next time I will put [sarcasm] [sarcasm/] marks.

[Sabre]

Gringo wrote:

Argyll wrote:

ryan woods wrote:
HE was leading from the rear and when combat arrived on the scene he suddenly remembered he left a vital piece of gear at the trucks.


Wrong!

The contact had aready began when the RSM's party arrived at the Start Line,they were advancing under fire when he was shot in the leg,if you refer to Mark Urban's book,and I know some blokes from A sqd who were there,who said it was a gang fukc because hardly any of the blokes knew how to do Section/Platoon/Squadron attacks!!


Surely they must had known? I mean some of them must had known, as they would had come from the Infantry before?

Some would know, others wouldn't. The problem was that the regiment has been increasingly used both in Iraq and A-stan for larger operations that a 'teeth' infantry unit could do (for example the paras or RM). A good example of this are the two airfields captured by the regiment in telic 1 (forgotten the names).

The 'traditional' role of the regiment is small unit operations/strategic recce, such as in the Gulf 1 operations. There has been some concern raised over the change to larger ops, with the belief that the regiment should concentrate on more traditional taskings. There is also a plan (I think) to create a UKSF support unit (battalion?) probably drawn from the paras, or an existing Para reg itself, to take on these targets in support of UKSF ops.

But then, recent changes in UKSF(R) almost indicate a requirement for troopers that have a grounding conventional 'green' army tactics. As of this year, 21 and 23 have stopped recruiting civillians and are now only taking military candidates. The idea being that it is not worth the time spent on civvies who pass the hill phase, but fail continuation because of a lack of military knowledge (which they could easily gain by joining a TA infantry unit for a year before going for selection).

[Ravenclaw]

Wait let me get this right coz i'm thoroughly confused.

Are you saying there are members in the SAS-the most elite unit the British armed forces who wouldn't know basic Infantry tactics?

Just asking...

[Argyll]

Wait let me get this right coz i'm thoroughly confused.

Are you saying there are members in the SAS-the most elite unit the British armed forces who wouldn't know basic Infantry tactics?

Just asking...

Not when they've been come from Corps(REME,RE,RLC etc) ;)
Also it's not something that was practiced,you have to remember the role of the SAS was to operate in 4-6 man patrols behind enemy lines......Head on section attacks are not the done thing there

[Sabre]

Ravenclaw wrote:
Wait let me get this right coz i'm thoroughly confused.

Are you saying there are members in the SAS-the most elite unit the British armed forces who wouldn't know basic Infantry tactics?

Just asking...


As Argyll said, it's not their job. Such tactics aren't practiced because they aren't expected to carry out such attacks. It is a waste of these troops to use them in such a manner because they are selected and trained for a different purpose.

As they are expected to operate in 4-6 man groups, tactics are developed and practiced for contacts involving small groups. Contact drills are designed to break from contact, not prolong or initiate it. The aim is to carry out the mission (ie recce) without ever needing to engage the enemy. There are, of course, occasions where DAs/ambushes are conducted, but predominantly patrols are meant to be 'sneaky-beaky'.

[babydave]

hey Argyll

any chance you could get some pictures from basra? would be nice to compare them to baghdad.

[Yosy]

Wait let me get this right coz i'm thoroughly confused.

Are you saying there are members in the SAS-the most elite unit the British armed forces who wouldn't know basic Infantry tactics?

Just asking...

Yes. A Navy bloke could aplly to the SAS and pass Selection. Everyone in the british armed forces can join the SAS. There was an SAS officer that said, after the capture of the two airbases in Iraq (the biggest land battle for the SAS - A and G squadron with paras and commandos as backup) that "others could do it better" (read not-so-"elite"-regiments like Green Jackets).

Still, the SAS in changing. Their role is going back to its roots and the big power of NCOs is going to end.

[Gringo]

Wait let me get this right coz i'm thoroughly confused.

Are you saying there are members in the SAS-the most elite unit the British armed forces who wouldn't know basic Infantry tactics?

Just asking...

Yes. A Navy bloke could aplly to the SAS and pass Selection. Everyone in the british armed forces can join the SAS. There was an SAS officer that said, after the capture of the two airbases in Iraq (the biggest land battle for the SAS - A and G squadron with paras and commandos as backup) that "others could do it better" (read not-so-"elite"-regiments like Green Jackets).

Still, the SAS in changing. Their role is going back to its roots and the big power of NCOs is going to end.

Not everyone can join the SAS, women can't. :P

As for the SAS officer refering to 'the infantry could had done it better' comment, that was said about the two Squadron assault in Afghanistan, the same one of which the RSM got wounded.

As for these capture of two airbases in Iraq, I haven't heard anything about them to know.

Besides with this new 'Ranger Battalion' that's being created (well just having a bunch of existing units thrown together into it, then being put under Director of Special Forces and moved a little closer to Hereford, actually) would be the answer, wouldn't it?

[Yosy]

^^^^^

that "Ranger Battalion" are paras with a different name.

[Gringo]

No.

The unit is to be the UK equivalent to the US Army Rangers. It is to be comprised of 1 PARA Battalion as well with other support units, it is to come under Director of Special Forces (instead of infantry) and be based close to Hereford. The idea is that they support SAS ops.